It's transported over X via an extension - so X and OpenGL as I said above. Workstation software is usually designed to run well remotely. It takes quite a bit to saturate gigabit so a lot of software runs as well as it would locally, and that's when the local machine is just a desktop PC with a sub $100 gaming card and the remote machine is a 64 core monster with half a terabyte of memory. Your local machine appears to run like that monster only without the noise. Moving back to a dumb framebuffer takes all the away. The suggestions of a dumb framebuffer blitting to VNC or RDP show that those suggesting it have no clue at all how users use X remotely - typically items from several machines end up on the users display at once. The "X sucks so give up and move to Wayland" crowd do not seem the think there is room for two different display projects despite Wayland having a large amount of X code in it (the hardware drivers for a start).
Yes, but note it's not X that is broken but instead a reliance on high performance local hardware to give barely adequate performance. It is not an X issue at all. It appears to have had the effect of driving people to other window managers and back to gnome2.
I would expect an X11 benchmark
To date the Wayland people have been unable to supply benchmarks to compare performance with X11 benchmarks, which is fair enough from the developers of a project in early stages, but the fanboys loudly scream about performance despite a lack of benchmarks. It's annoying which is why I comment on the issue in an attempt to cut back on the deliberate misinformation.
Why are you doing this? Jumping on a post, taking it offtopic and adding nothing but noise looks like a pretty boring hobby to me so I don't understand. Please answer the question I have asked several times.
However, it was never well suited to do any of the "modern" things like show video or provide 3D graphics
With respect, I have a pile of geophysicists doing interactive 3D stuff via X and OpenGL over a network all the time. Just because some people have applications that do things badly does not mean that it does not work when used as intended. I was doing 3D CAD stuff over a network with X in 2000 FFS.
You've been misinformed on that point. Unless you have an environment designed to depend upon local 3D acceleration hardware then the network transparency works as designed. Gnome3 is currently broken in that way, as some complained when it was first released, but very little else that runs on X is. The gnome3 stuff still works remotely but performance is terrible. Actually the local performance of gnome3 is dismal as well (see Daniel Stone's comments about "gedit" taking a long time to start) but faster hardware hides that to an extent. That's not all. There is a lot more to X than the deliberately cut down Wayland project provides - that's kind of the point remember and supposed to deliver performance benefits in the future. Some people find that other stuff useful and others do not.
Either way it's probably about three years too early for the fanboy rants about how a project they do not understand and is not ready for use supposedly rules the roost. It's a pity we can't hear real stuff from the developers of a project with real potential instead of cargo cult bullshit from clueless newbies
Your post would have been much more convincing without the tirade at the beginning
That's how the fanboys work. Something like "X sux and the new thing will rock when it's finished" instead of benchmarks or an understanding of where the flaws in the thing they rant against lie.
Pretty well all the flaws Daniel Stone has pointed out are in gnome3, or are just personal dislikes instead of flaws (eg. when he tore into the Enlightenment window manager), and unlike him the fanboys don't have a clue so blame it all and more on X. The fanboys also don't get the context - X may suck when you are porting it to a smartphone with low end hardware and don't have a lot of development experience, I'll take his word for it, but it seems to hold up better than all the current alternatives elsewhere.
By modern apps you mean gnome3 crap. Everything else works as intended without needing a fucking 3D accelerated video card. Wayland is an attempt to deal with that headache instead of solving the underlying problem of some people who wrote stuff for X not having a fucking clue how to write things for X.
Wayland developers (at least one of them) push it as far superior as X by spreading FUD about X
Using the new "gedit" startup time as evidence that X is slow instead of that gnome3 is slow is a shining example - if it was the fault of X then the older "gedit" that starts extremely quickly would not be so quick.
Mr Stone has publicly held up screenshots of Rasterman's Enlightenment v0.16 as items of ridicule to demonstrate how X has so many features he thinks it should not need. I doubt that went down well since Enlightenment was one of the first projects to offer Wayland support.
Rubbish - extensions were put in as a mechanism so that it could age well. Also how is a dumb framebuffer and asking others to do compositors to work with it "new"? It's video game console and MSDOS territory. The Wayland developers don't push it as new they push it as more simple. Please try to keep up with the topic you are a fan of.
Not quite so, there was a guy that became a US Senator for California (up until around 1970) who was sued for copyright violations by Hitler before Pearl Harbour. However the court action may have been to stop his efforts at showing with Hitler's own words that the Time "Man of the Year" was not so nice a guy as so many were saying. Also funny how being anti-fascist even after the war started in Europe was painted as "unAmerican" later on.
Guys, please don't reply with a D vs R shitfight since McCarthy and a few others were a cancer out for themselves with little or no respect for the party they were in.
The geek remains ignorant of the most fundamental distinctions between civil and criminal law.
The copyright lobby is pushing very hard to get criminal law to do their dirty work and the taxpayers to pay for it so that's not unusual. Those stupid advertisements about copyright violation have been deliberately blurring the line for years.
Which is one reason why there is so much effort to get copyright violations treated as criminal matters. We've even seen paramilitary responses over copyright violations with DVD-Jon, Kim Dotcom and others - it's ridiculous especially in the first case. What was DVD-Jon going to do, throw his schoolbag at someone turning up to serve a summons?
Isn't it funny how a lot of other things are "grandfathered" in - even electrical safety, but copyright rules are allowed to change everything and take things back out of the public domain. I see it as a sign of corruption and the biggest donor being seen as more important than the nation itself.
Or remote areas where you don't want to have to keep on shipping in fuel for a generator. Of course these things are going to scale in a linear way (twice as big for twice the power) as distinct from thermal solutions (twice as big for better than twice the power) so there's going to be an upper limit where it is just not worth it.
It's all above - you said misleading shit about the N900 and microwaves. Why did you bother me in the first place and why are you continuing? You have added nothing but noise.
It's a fuel cell. Scaling them up is just a matter of making them bigger and feeding more stuff into them. When space travel was in the news more often a ten year old could have told you that.
We were wondering if you could put off the attack you seem to be preparing for a week or two until the weather has improved and we are able to recharge our Hydrogen supplies.
The word "tank" doesn't just mean a thing on treads with a gun:)
It's a test rig. It's small for that reason. Increase the area where the reaction happens, increase the inputs and you get a fuel cell with a larger output. Think of it as like having a larger battery only a fuel cell is a battery where you keep on feeding more things into it so that it does not go flat.
Your useless deliberately misleading noise about the N900 with microwaves was how you propagated your confusion. Why are you keeping this up loser? It's all there above in this entirely useless thread.
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It's transported over X via an extension - so X and OpenGL as I said above. Workstation software is usually designed to run well remotely. It takes quite a bit to saturate gigabit so a lot of software runs as well as it would locally, and that's when the local machine is just a desktop PC with a sub $100 gaming card and the remote machine is a 64 core monster with half a terabyte of memory. Your local machine appears to run like that monster only without the noise.
Moving back to a dumb framebuffer takes all the away.
The suggestions of a dumb framebuffer blitting to VNC or RDP show that those suggesting it have no clue at all how users use X remotely - typically items from several machines end up on the users display at once.
The "X sucks so give up and move to Wayland" crowd do not seem the think there is room for two different display projects despite Wayland having a large amount of X code in it (the hardware drivers for a start).
To date the Wayland people have been unable to supply benchmarks to compare performance with X11 benchmarks, which is fair enough from the developers of a project in early stages, but the fanboys loudly scream about performance despite a lack of benchmarks. It's annoying which is why I comment on the issue in an attempt to cut back on the deliberate misinformation.
Thank you.
I'll link your post above next time I see you trolling someone for entertainment.
Have a nice day.
Why are you doing this?
Jumping on a post, taking it offtopic and adding nothing but noise looks like a pretty boring hobby to me so I don't understand. Please answer the question I have asked several times.
With respect, I have a pile of geophysicists doing interactive 3D stuff via X and OpenGL over a network all the time. Just because some people have applications that do things badly does not mean that it does not work when used as intended. I was doing 3D CAD stuff over a network with X in 2000 FFS.
You've been misinformed on that point. Unless you have an environment designed to depend upon local 3D acceleration hardware then the network transparency works as designed. Gnome3 is currently broken in that way, as some complained when it was first released, but very little else that runs on X is. The gnome3 stuff still works remotely but performance is terrible. Actually the local performance of gnome3 is dismal as well (see Daniel Stone's comments about "gedit" taking a long time to start) but faster hardware hides that to an extent.
That's not all. There is a lot more to X than the deliberately cut down Wayland project provides - that's kind of the point remember and supposed to deliver performance benefits in the future. Some people find that other stuff useful and others do not.
Either way it's probably about three years too early for the fanboy rants about how a project they do not understand and is not ready for use supposedly rules the roost. It's a pity we can't hear real stuff from the developers of a project with real potential instead of cargo cult bullshit from clueless newbies
That's how the fanboys work. Something like "X sux and the new thing will rock when it's finished" instead of benchmarks or an understanding of where the flaws in the thing they rant against lie.
Pretty well all the flaws Daniel Stone has pointed out are in gnome3, or are just personal dislikes instead of flaws (eg. when he tore into the Enlightenment window manager), and unlike him the fanboys don't have a clue so blame it all and more on X. The fanboys also don't get the context - X may suck when you are porting it to a smartphone with low end hardware and don't have a lot of development experience, I'll take his word for it, but it seems to hold up better than all the current alternatives elsewhere.
By modern apps you mean gnome3 crap.
Everything else works as intended without needing a fucking 3D accelerated video card.
Wayland is an attempt to deal with that headache instead of solving the underlying problem of some people who wrote stuff for X not having a fucking clue how to write things for X.
Because obviously the N900 and all those other things after with those applications I mentioned do not.
Why are you doing this?
Using the new "gedit" startup time as evidence that X is slow instead of that gnome3 is slow is a shining example - if it was the fault of X then the older "gedit" that starts extremely quickly would not be so quick.
Mr Stone has publicly held up screenshots of Rasterman's Enlightenment v0.16 as items of ridicule to demonstrate how X has so many features he thinks it should not need. I doubt that went down well since Enlightenment was one of the first projects to offer Wayland support.
Obviously not, just obviously doing the same task.
Epic fail.
Why are you doing this?
Rubbish - extensions were put in as a mechanism so that it could age well.
Also how is a dumb framebuffer and asking others to do compositors to work with it "new"? It's video game console and MSDOS territory.
The Wayland developers don't push it as new they push it as more simple. Please try to keep up with the topic you are a fan of.
Not quite so, there was a guy that became a US Senator for California (up until around 1970) who was sued for copyright violations by Hitler before Pearl Harbour.
However the court action may have been to stop his efforts at showing with Hitler's own words that the Time "Man of the Year" was not so nice a guy as so many were saying. Also funny how being anti-fascist even after the war started in Europe was painted as "unAmerican" later on.
Guys, please don't reply with a D vs R shitfight since McCarthy and a few others were a cancer out for themselves with little or no respect for the party they were in.
The copyright lobby is pushing very hard to get criminal law to do their dirty work and the taxpayers to pay for it so that's not unusual. Those stupid advertisements about copyright violation have been deliberately blurring the line for years.
Which is one reason why there is so much effort to get copyright violations treated as criminal matters. We've even seen paramilitary responses over copyright violations with DVD-Jon, Kim Dotcom and others - it's ridiculous especially in the first case. What was DVD-Jon going to do, throw his schoolbag at someone turning up to serve a summons?
Isn't it funny how a lot of other things are "grandfathered" in - even electrical safety, but copyright rules are allowed to change everything and take things back out of the public domain.
I see it as a sign of corruption and the biggest donor being seen as more important than the nation itself.
Or remote areas where you don't want to have to keep on shipping in fuel for a generator.
Of course these things are going to scale in a linear way (twice as big for twice the power) as distinct from thermal solutions (twice as big for better than twice the power) so there's going to be an upper limit where it is just not worth it.
So you are saying the N900 has microwave sensors? Fuck off troll.
It's all above - you said misleading shit about the N900 and microwaves.
Why did you bother me in the first place and why are you continuing? You have added nothing but noise.
That's purely a financial construct designed to discourage use due to insufficient capacity.
It's a fuel cell. Scaling them up is just a matter of making them bigger and feeding more stuff into them.
When space travel was in the news more often a ten year old could have told you that.
The word "tank" doesn't just mean a thing on treads with a gun :)
Maybe really fast construction of a power plant :)
It's a test rig. It's small for that reason.
Increase the area where the reaction happens, increase the inputs and you get a fuel cell with a larger output. Think of it as like having a larger battery only a fuel cell is a battery where you keep on feeding more things into it so that it does not go flat.
Your useless deliberately misleading noise about the N900 with microwaves was how you propagated your confusion.
Why are you keeping this up loser? It's all there above in this entirely useless thread.