No they won't. Why? Because the open source development model doesn't work that way.
KDE 2 Might have been released later than they said look at the 2.4 kernel and other projects.
Theres more than one component in a distribution do you wait for the new gnome, the new apache, the new mozilla...
It needs testing. While release point zero might have great features it usually had bugs, and kde2 does. Yes its good, but I suspect the 2.1 (or 2.0.1) release will be more stable than kde 1.
Regards the making computers easy to use, yes its true windows isn't easy it has GUIs for everything but you still need to know what to but in the each configuration box. BUT, there is a big difference between the computer and the car, the car does one thing, no latest feature upgrades and so on. The car is much simpler. The car is one kind of hardware, the computer can have thousands of different options for hardware, just look at all the video cards, sound cards, network cards, and so on.
We need to move towards the target you talk about and this is getting there for most software people use. The latest, specialised, technical kinds of software will be outside the understanding of most users. So what! Do you expect users to know how to install a new air conditioning system in their car? No. Infact the user doesn't install bits in their car that's the difference.
x86 (8086) was a crap processor when it came out. And now its been extended to hell, compare the speed of a G4 and x86 and you see a 400Mhz G4 taking on top-end intel chips.
Its time to move on and start with a clean implementation, and IA-64 is it.
I think IA-64 will run IA-32 as a emulation mode while stuff gets ported anyhow. Lets not continue with 60/70s based designs just because we can keep using Microsoft Windows. How long will Microsoft continue to hold back progress in the computer industry?
I agree this type of work separates open source from many commercial organisations. Release when its ready not by a set date regardless.
Don't let any new stuff into 2.4, unless it helps with the release.
Release when its non buggy
Last point is really improtant, if 2.4 comes out buggy it will look bad for Linux, while a delay is just one of those things. 2.2 is still being added too don't forget.
Seems like some of the "Linux" companies are jumping on the bandwagon to look good. When Dell say there behind Linux then boast about NT over Linux it make me wonder. I still think Dell is big buddies with Gates. Go into a store today, how many PCs have Linux installed by default? Not many, its - we support Linux but we don't really do anythink about it. Asking a Dell support about Linux was like speaking martian.
Some points:
+ Apache is ** FREE **
+ Apache is very stable and runs on Linux/BSD which are stable too.
- NT is unstable piece of sH**
+ Apache runs on lots of platforms
+ Apache is the most widely used
+ Apache is nice to work with
+ Apache has lots of plugins available
+ Linux 2.4 is faster with networking.
My list of good guys and bad guys: Good Guys
Linus, Alan and the rest of the community.
SGI
IBM
Linux Vendors
FreeBSD
Matrox
Bad Guys
Micro$oft
Dell
The above list is my opinion, feel free to draw up your own.
I was using GNU gcc before I even heard of Red Hat, or Linux come to think about it. I'm sure a lot of you out there have this same experience. Yes, Red Hat have made a big difference but they didn't start the open source revolution, Slackware probably have more rightful claim to this statement.
The whole thing was ready to errupt before Red Hat was even on the scene. I'm sure Linux would be big today if Red Hat hadn't existed.
Let's not forget FreeBSD too, and today the Debian distro heaps lead open source.
Note that open-source Red Hat have GPL software, yep, the `G' stands for GNU, not Red Hat.
I haven't used Red Hat 7 so I don't know exactly what its like, and I'm not a major Red Hat user. However I do suspect the problems arn't directly Red Hats. Systems like Kernel 2.4, latest gcc, latest XFree 4, KDE-2 still have some problems, and I don't regard them ready for mainstream. Yes, you can get them going fairly well with the right hardware and know how.
Customers ask for the impossible they want the latest but they also want it proven to work.
Linus said that 2.4.0 will not include a JFS, but expects ReiserFS to appear in a 2.4.X release sometime after. If not it will go into 2.5/2.6.
Out of all the filesystems XFS looks the best for scalability.
However SGI have scaled back the full performance of XFS to get it going in Linux.
It will be interesting to watch the development of the Linux storage systems including filesystems, logical volume managers and various media support.
Why is this exciting? Because its needed for Linux to get into the hi-end server market, hence lots of input from SGI and IBM. That's not to say this is the only area required; we also need better SMP, support for NUMA and so on. Again all areas under active development.
If you don't think the development of the Linux system is exciting, then you know less about computers than you think.
Maybe I was getting carried away with the
government stuff, and I don't mean to knock
NASA in anyway. I think they result in a lot of
"side" projects and employment thru contracts to
NASA. The reason I said this was because of the
resulting mess in closed file formats and protocols thats holding back the computer industry. I agree with Linus that Micro$oft shouldn't be split up but instead there APIs, file formats and protocols should be forced open, then let competetion level the playing field once again. Microsoft is slowly loosing the OS war anyhow. But I think the computer industry is about ten years behind were it should be. Lets face it Linux is still adding features that where available in commericial Unices about ten years ago. I don't actually blame Micro$oft for this but instead the commercial vendors who fragmented the living daylights out of Unix(tm) until there was no binary or even source compatability. But thats another story.
What you say is partly true. BUT, we still
need Linux to run on older and smaller devices
like cellphones and other embedded systems. Linus just wants the kernel to scale well across low-end and hi-end hardware. Also the 386 memory model is the foundation of the pentium range, not just 386s. Hope that helps you 'get it'.
I've seen many articles about why Linus won't
include this or that. Don't forget Linus is one
of the greatest computer experts on this planet,
he doesn't just say no because he's having a bad
hair day.
Linus is probably rejecting this because:
2.4 is frozen and is not accepting any more major changes. If he doesn't stick to his guns here we wont see 2.4 for another year or so.
The 2.5/2.6 list of kernel changes and additions is still being drawn up.
The patch probably needs improving so not to cause slow downs and problems for 99% of users. Some more thought needs to go in here. Yes a extra feature might be really good but Linus wants to keep the kernel nice and not turn into one huge blob, he's already talking about structural changes to increase the modularity while maintaining the efficient monolithic core of Linux, this will take some work. Maybe Linux 3.0?
So lets not complain, but ask why? Linus is a logical guy, but sometimes we can't always see his reasoning.
I do think however that Linux is getting so big that Linus will have to change the way patches are integrated and accepted, he's going to have to delegate more and become more concerned with Linux's overall direction and working with the big companies while also working in the interest of the community. I think the US government should pay for this even, why not, they pay for NASA and Linux is alot more use to citizens than a space shuttle.
Well 2.4 is in a feature freeze, currently in
the test phase. Lets not even think of asking
Linus to put feature X into it.
All requested features/modifications need to go
in the 2.5 list, for consideration and debate. Meanwhile vendors can go on getting their distributions ready for 2.4. They have work to do on updates for new ppp, networking, usb, video updates (DRI), XFree86 4, Gnome, KDE-2, LVM, MD, ATA-66, Firewire, I2O, I2C,... Do you want this sooner or later?
Well the KDE 2 stuff (deb packages) are currently
for Woody only.
With the Debian release schedule change to around
6 months you could safely assume that Woody will
contain KDE 2 which will give Debain enough testing time - which is one of their trademarks.
I am also guessing that any KDE 2 packages will be
add on packages to potato. I would not expect to see them added to the offical version since its already released.
Hopefully woody will have a nice installer too:
Debian + Gnome + KDE2 =:-)
For Debian users wanting to get an easy install
or introduce friends to Linux try Storm Linux 2000 which is based on Potato.
The idea that some had of Debian being anti-KDE seems to have been smashed - it was always a pure legal issue. Ok, thats more boring than the gossip but true.
It amazes me how many people still confuse the desktop with the window manager, and the window manager with the graphics (X) server.
Graphics (X) Server - draws stuff
Window Manager - handles the windows on the display
Desktop - Is the users tools/interface
You can have Sawfish/Gnome/X or KDE/WindowMaker/X.
KDE just happens to come with its own window manager KWM.
So a desktop is mostly for the average user not so much the techie, for this reason I think KDE2 looks more suitable for the average Windows user to make the leap over to Linux. Isn't this what we want?
I wonder if Qt was GPL what the outcome for the "standard" desktop would have been?
Alan Cox is doing good work for the stable
series 2.2.x which most people use.
I wonder if he will support 2.4 when it
goes into the stable series?
Hope Linus stops anything else getting added
to 2.4; debug it and get it out. The rest can
go in 2.5/2.6.
Every single desktop Sun have come up with has
been a lot of rubbish. People seem to think that
Gnome is now the defacto standard, I think they
will mess it up like OpenLook, Motif, CDE...
The best desktop to compete with Micro$oft is
KDE 2. Maybe its time for Trolltech to really
sort out that Qt licence, and make KDE the
prefered community and user desktop.
Come on Trolltech make Qt LGPL this is the
time to do it! You can make money with support,
manuals, and maybe making the licence require
that Trolltech is listed on startup and/or about
details as a good form of advertising.
It would be really dumb for Trolltech to cling
onto QPL and see KDE pushed behind Gnome, until
there was less and less profit in it.
Join forces with the community and Debian too, and
do the right thing!
Since Debian is looking towards removing non-free then can I suggest that Debian aims to become the defacto base as in another layer above linux itself. Can I suggest that debian add another version called development that allows the very latest packages to be put there for all to try and test without the need for downloading, compiling and installing many modules. So there would be development, unstable, frozen and stable. This would not only accelerate debian itself but also linux itself and the packages on it. And would become the standard development ground which is currently missing from the open source world. The apt system makes Debian better than any other distro or operating system for this. What are your feelings on this?
I agree the UI for the GIMP isn't the best but the program is very powerful, and you have to admire it for an open source project. Can I suggest to the GIMP team that they focus on a GIMP library and allow GNOME and KDE to develop a UI on top of this. Hopefully there will be a kde_gimp and gnome_gimp projects developed using this. I think work is already underway with KDE2.
Just like to say first I love Debian, but I'm getting a little tired of some of there attitudes:
Debian: We are taking the following tools away from you hammer, spanner, screwdriver, etc. Since they are "non-free". User: So what do I use? Debian: Well we have a rock and stick availble for free. Or you can go to hardware stores and purchase the missing tools after obtaining our kit. User: Will the hardware store have tools that work with my existing kit? Debian: Sort of, you may need to modify them to work with your existing set first. User: How do I do that? Debian: You have to be a toolmaker. User: Ok, when will good alternatives to the tools I once used exist? Debian: Maybe within two years or so. Oh, and by the way we might remove more tools if we think there not free enough. User: Arn't you concerned about your existing users? Debian: Not really we exist for ourselves, and we only have internal votes like the communist party. User: Is there an alternative kit available? Debian: Errm.. Errr... Yes. There's Hard Hat tools and Mandake tools. User: [Thinks...] Debian: Where are you going? Come back, come back...
Many of the things you point out are true. But in some ways your missing the point. Yes the 33/66/100 are the maximum transfer rates, but:
Cached data can be transfered quicker. Many HDD have around 2Mb of cache.
There can be two HDD on this bus, don't just think about one HDD.
Transfer rates are going up all the time as HDD technology improves. Best to get a faster rate now than be bottle-necked in a few months.
ATA/100 is serial you can have longer thin cables. The ATA/33-66 used those horrible short ribbon cables, its worth having this standard just for this reason.
All they ask is for enough specs to write a good device driver. They don't need blueprints for the card. So all the companies need to do is supply some specs and help to ALSA, only a few companies seem willing to do even this small task. Do they not want to sell more hardware!? Seems not.
I agree KDE would be good with Debian, but I think there are licence problems regarding this, they might have been resolved. However you can download KDE debs on KDE sites - I know, this isn't the point.
I have also emailed a few people at Debian asking them to cut down the number of packages in Debian, and also consider splitting it in two. A core/pure OS part and an extras part. Then new distributions should appear more often.
I think its time to rethink what Debian is. Its a linux distribution first and foremost. If potato is taking this long, then how long will the next one take?
Well I'm getting rid of all gifs on my webpage. As far as I can see if things don't change gifs will be history in a few years. I used Unisys BTOS/CTOS machines a few years back - utter junk!
Slashdot Mirror
There is a new driver released 5th Nov 2000.
t onator3.html
http://www.nvidia.com/Products.nsf/htmlmedia/de
Note these are beta releases. i.e. 0.95
- KDE 2 Might have been released later than they said look at the 2.4 kernel and other projects.
- Theres more than one component in a distribution do you wait for the new gnome, the new apache, the new mozilla...
- It needs testing. While release point zero might have great features it usually had bugs, and kde2 does. Yes its good, but I suspect the 2.1 (or 2.0.1) release will be more stable than kde 1.
Regards the making computers easy to use, yes its true windows isn't easy it has GUIs for everything but you still need to know what to but in the each configuration box. BUT, there is a big difference between the computer and the car, the car does one thing, no latest feature upgrades and so on. The car is much simpler. The car is one kind of hardware, the computer can have thousands of different options for hardware, just look at all the video cards, sound cards, network cards, and so on.We need to move towards the target you talk about and this is getting there for most software people use. The latest, specialised, technical kinds of software will be outside the understanding of most users. So what! Do you expect users to know how to install a new air conditioning system in their car? No. Infact the user doesn't install bits in their car that's the difference.
x86 (8086) was a crap processor when it came out. And now its been extended to hell, compare the speed of a G4 and x86 and you see a 400Mhz G4 taking on top-end intel chips.
Its time to move on and start with a clean implementation, and IA-64 is it.
I think IA-64 will run IA-32 as a emulation mode while stuff gets ported anyhow.
Lets not continue with 60/70s based designs just because we can keep using Microsoft Windows. How long will Microsoft continue to hold back progress in the computer industry?
- Don't let any new stuff into 2.4, unless it helps with the release.
- Release when its non buggy
Last point is really improtant, if 2.4 comes out buggy it will look bad for Linux, while a delay is just one of those things. 2.2 is still being added too don't forget.Some points:
My list of good guys and bad guys:
Good Guys
- Linus, Alan and the rest of the community.
- SGI
- IBM
- Linux Vendors
- FreeBSD
- Matrox
Bad Guys- Micro$oft
- Dell
The above list is my opinion, feel free to draw up your own.I was using GNU gcc before I even heard of Red Hat, or Linux come to think about it. I'm sure a lot of you out there have this same experience.
Yes, Red Hat have made a big difference but they didn't start the open source revolution, Slackware probably have more rightful claim to this statement.
The whole thing was ready to errupt before Red Hat was even on the scene. I'm sure Linux would be big today if Red Hat hadn't existed.
Let's not forget FreeBSD too, and today the Debian distro heaps lead open source.
Note that open-source Red Hat have GPL software, yep, the `G' stands for GNU, not Red Hat.
I haven't used Red Hat 7 so I don't know exactly what its like, and I'm not a major Red Hat user. However I do suspect the problems arn't directly Red Hats. Systems like Kernel 2.4, latest gcc, latest XFree 4, KDE-2 still have some problems, and I don't regard them ready for mainstream. Yes, you can get them going fairly well with the right hardware and know how.
Customers ask for the impossible they want the latest but they also want it proven to work.
Will 2.4 ship with a JFS?
Linus said that 2.4.0 will not include a JFS, but expects ReiserFS to appear in a 2.4.X release sometime after. If not it will go into 2.5/2.6.
Out of all the filesystems XFS looks the best for scalability.
However SGI have scaled back the full performance of XFS to get it going in Linux.
It will be interesting to watch the development of the Linux storage systems including filesystems, logical volume managers and various media support.
Why is this exciting? Because its needed for Linux to get into the hi-end server market, hence lots of input from SGI and IBM. That's not to say this is the only area required; we also need better SMP, support for NUMA and so on. Again all areas under active development.
If you don't think the development of the Linux system is exciting, then you know less about computers than you think.
Maybe I was getting carried away with the government stuff, and I don't mean to knock NASA in anyway. I think they result in a lot of "side" projects and employment thru contracts to NASA. The reason I said this was because of the resulting mess in closed file formats and protocols thats holding back the computer industry. I agree with Linus that Micro$oft shouldn't be split up but instead there APIs, file formats and protocols should be forced open, then let competetion level the playing field once again. Microsoft is slowly loosing the OS war anyhow. But I think the computer industry is about ten years behind were it should be. Lets face it Linux is still adding features that where available in commericial Unices about ten years ago. I don't actually blame Micro$oft for this but instead the commercial vendors who fragmented the living daylights out of Unix(tm) until there was no binary or even source compatability. But thats another story.
Try the LISP programming language, its bracket heaven.
What you say is partly true. BUT, we still need Linux to run on older and smaller devices like cellphones and other embedded systems. Linus just wants the kernel to scale well across low-end and hi-end hardware. Also the 386 memory model is the foundation of the pentium range, not just 386s. Hope that helps you 'get it'.
Linus is probably rejecting this because:
- 2.4 is frozen and is not accepting any more major changes. If he doesn't stick to his guns here we wont see 2.4 for another year or so.
- The 2.5/2.6 list of kernel changes and additions is still being drawn up.
- The patch probably needs improving so not to cause slow downs and problems for 99% of users. Some more thought needs to go in here. Yes a extra feature might be really good but Linus wants to keep the kernel nice and not turn into one huge blob, he's already talking about structural changes to increase the modularity while maintaining the efficient monolithic core of Linux, this will take some work. Maybe Linux 3.0?
So lets not complain, but ask why? Linus is a logical guy, but sometimes we can't always see his reasoning.I do think however that Linux is getting so big that Linus will have to change the way patches are integrated and accepted, he's going to have to delegate more and become more concerned with Linux's overall direction and working with the big companies while also working in the interest of the community. I think the US government should pay for this even, why not, they pay for NASA and Linux is alot more use to citizens than a space shuttle.
- Can we have this extra feature in 2.4
- Why is 2.4 taking so long to come out?
Well 2.4 is in a feature freeze, currently in the test phase. Lets not even think of asking Linus to put feature X into it.All requested features/modifications need to go in the 2.5 list, for consideration and debate.
Meanwhile vendors can go on getting their distributions ready for 2.4. They have work to do on updates for new ppp, networking, usb, video updates (DRI), XFree86 4, Gnome, KDE-2, LVM, MD, ATA-66, Firewire, I2O, I2C,
With the Debian release schedule change to around 6 months you could safely assume that Woody will contain KDE 2 which will give Debain enough testing time - which is one of their trademarks. I am also guessing that any KDE 2 packages will be add on packages to potato. I would not expect to see them added to the offical version since its already released.
Hopefully woody will have a nice installer too:
Debian + Gnome + KDE2 =
For Debian users wanting to get an easy install or introduce friends to Linux try Storm Linux 2000 which is based on Potato.
The idea that some had of Debian being anti-KDE seems to have been smashed - it was always a pure legal issue. Ok, thats more boring than the gossip but true.
It amazes me how many people still confuse the desktop with the window manager, and the window manager with the graphics (X) server.
- Graphics (X) Server - draws stuff
- Window Manager - handles the windows on the display
- Desktop - Is the users tools/interface
You can have Sawfish/Gnome/X or KDE/WindowMaker/X. KDE just happens to come with its own window manager KWM.So a desktop is mostly for the average user not so much the techie, for this reason I think KDE2 looks more suitable for the average Windows user to make the leap over to Linux. Isn't this what we want?
I wonder if Qt was GPL what the outcome for the "standard" desktop would have been?
hip hip horay!
hip hip horay!
hip hip horay!
Alan Cox is doing good work for the stable series 2.2.x which most people use.
I wonder if he will support 2.4 when it goes into the stable series?
Hope Linus stops anything else getting added to 2.4; debug it and get it out. The rest can go in 2.5/2.6.
Every single desktop Sun have come up with has been a lot of rubbish. People seem to think that Gnome is now the defacto standard, I think they will mess it up like OpenLook, Motif, CDE... The best desktop to compete with Micro$oft is KDE 2. Maybe its time for Trolltech to really sort out that Qt licence, and make KDE the prefered community and user desktop. Come on Trolltech make Qt LGPL this is the time to do it! You can make money with support, manuals, and maybe making the licence require that Trolltech is listed on startup and/or about details as a good form of advertising. It would be really dumb for Trolltech to cling onto QPL and see KDE pushed behind Gnome, until there was less and less profit in it. Join forces with the community and Debian too, and do the right thing!
Since Debian is looking towards removing non-free then can I suggest that Debian aims to become the defacto base as in another layer above linux itself. Can I suggest that debian add another version called development that allows the very latest packages to be put there for all to try and test without the need for downloading, compiling and installing many modules. So there would be development, unstable, frozen and stable. This would not only accelerate debian itself but also linux itself and the packages on it. And would become the standard development ground which is currently missing from the open source world. The apt system makes Debian better than any other distro or operating system for this.
What are your feelings on this?
I agree the UI for the GIMP isn't the best but the program is very powerful, and you have to admire it for an open source project. Can I suggest to the GIMP team that they focus on a GIMP library and allow GNOME and KDE to develop a UI on top of this. Hopefully there will be a kde_gimp and gnome_gimp projects developed using this. I think work is already underway with KDE2.
Just like to say first I love Debian, but I'm getting a little tired of some of there attitudes:
Debian: We are taking the following tools away from you hammer, spanner, screwdriver, etc. Since they are "non-free".
User: So what do I use?
Debian: Well we have a rock and stick availble for free. Or you can go to hardware stores and purchase the missing tools after obtaining our kit.
User: Will the hardware store have tools that work with my existing kit?
Debian: Sort of, you may need to modify them to work with your existing set first.
User: How do I do that?
Debian: You have to be a toolmaker.
User: Ok, when will good alternatives to the tools I once used exist?
Debian: Maybe within two years or so. Oh, and by the way we might remove more tools if we think there not free enough.
User: Arn't you concerned about your existing users?
Debian: Not really we exist for ourselves, and we only have internal votes like the communist party.
User: Is there an alternative kit available?
Debian: Errm.. Errr... Yes. There's Hard Hat tools and Mandake tools.
User: [Thinks...]
Debian: Where are you going? Come back, come back...
sig=0xDA1E;
The ALSA web site is at:
www.alsa-project.org
All they ask is for enough specs to write a good device driver. They don't need blueprints for the card. So all the companies need to do is supply some specs and help to ALSA, only a few companies seem willing to do even this small task. Do they not want to sell more hardware!? Seems not.
I agree KDE would be good with Debian, but I think there are licence problems regarding this, they might have been resolved. However you can download KDE debs on KDE sites - I know, this isn't the point.
I have also emailed a few people at Debian asking them to cut down the number of packages in Debian, and also consider splitting it in two. A core/pure OS part and an extras part. Then new distributions should appear more often.
I think its time to rethink what Debian is. Its a linux distribution first and foremost. If potato is taking this long, then how long will the next one take?
Well I'm getting rid of all gifs on my webpage. As far as I can see if things don't change gifs will be history in a few years. I used Unisys BTOS/CTOS machines a few years back - utter junk!