Quoted: I say that if you took your average adult, put them into a fully immersive foreign language environment, where they could not get anything for themselves, they would learn the foreign language even faster than a child. Heck, to make it a fair comparison, you also would have to give the adult multiple tutors who will happily spend every day helping with identifying words and correcting pronunciation.
I have worked on learning Dutch (skip rant on no proper books or CD's after the beginning level) and gone to live there. So I have observed myself, as a proper human observer, learning vs my pictures and experiences of how children learn. I came to a similar conclusion.
Then I stumbled across something that contrasts (my languaging here) _the organic way a child learns_ with the linear, discursive (2nd def here "Proceeding to (results) through reason rather than intuition"), _language courses that study words and grammar rules_. Here's something from http://www.sk.com.br/sk-krash.html
(Quoted)"The best methods are therefore those that supply 'comprehensible input' in low anxiety situations, containing messages that students really want to hear. These methods do not force early production in the second language, but allow students to produce when they are 'ready', recognizing that improvement comes from supplying communicative and comprehensible input, and not from forcing and correcting production." Stephen Krashen
I wanted the children's environment, if not the level of attention given them, simple tasks, repeated phrases, the same experiences each day with the same words applied to them. And keeping no mind available, just soaking up the way to deal with 'this situation' or 'that'. I was hoping to be able to live with a family and as a 3rd person experience the kid's world or repetitions.
The second (or third) level of language speaking, (quoted) Our car. Papa away. Dry pants. All gone. See baby. Mail come. Children's two-word combinations are highly similar across cultures. Everywhere, children announce when objects appear, disappear, and move about, point out their properties and owners, comment on people doing things and seeing things, reject and request objects and activities, and ask about who, what, and where. (from http://users.ecs.soton.ac.uk/harnad/Papers/Py104/pinker.langacq.html)
If I had interaction on this level, what I have described and quoted, then I have no doubt that I would learn to speak faster than a baby, really they take years you know. And I would have picked up a lot more of the nonverbal culture, speed, style, gesture and attitude than I would in any university class.
I have a hard time seeing why the responses are all whiners. (All that I read.)
I know how to be objective and helpful. I know how to work with "what is". I know that life isn't always easy or the way I think I would design it for my own personal singular comfort and amusement. I have some flexibility and my Liver works.
Let me quote from one of my teachers, "Don't complain to anybody who can't do anything about it."
Either you get the picture or you don't. It's not about smiling, it's about being. Not being demanding and needy and co-dependent.
Deal with it.
--- Consciousness is a goal and a process. --- (next I correct the sig)
Consciousness is in the process, that is HOW you do it.
I looked, the WLAN is "b" which looks backwards.
Anyone want to compare it to the Fujitsu which similarily equipped (but can get to higher RAM) runs at $1600.
Fujitsu has combo drive, 2 USB2, 8.5 hours with bay battery (included in that price), external floppy, and (ugh) XP-home. (200 costs 100 more).
And WLAN-g.
I look at the Apple computers and the powerbook, metal housed, wireless built in, and see that (sensibly) they charge LESS for the smaller screen. Any comments?
Again and again I find Apple to be "too much trouble", things dont run in it, you need an IT dept to figure things out (read comments on Apple boards on usenet), and I remember the one time I did user support on a new Apple-Mac... IT had to be sent back for bad hardware. Whew. It is so pretty tho.
And I really really love the size of the 12" console. I saw a stripped Compaq the other day, really pretty but expensive and an old chip.
All replies will be used in my considerations.
Thanks
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Quoted: I say that if you took your average adult, put them into a fully immersive foreign language environment, where they could not get anything for themselves, they would learn the foreign language even faster than a child. Heck, to make it a fair comparison, you also would have to give the adult multiple tutors who will happily spend every day helping with identifying words and correcting pronunciation.
I have worked on learning Dutch (skip rant on no proper books or CD's after the beginning level) and gone to live there. So I have observed myself, as a proper human observer, learning vs my pictures and experiences of how children learn. I came to a similar conclusion.
Then I stumbled across something that contrasts (my languaging here) _the organic way a child learns_ with the linear, discursive (2nd def here "Proceeding to (results) through reason rather than intuition"), _language courses that study words and grammar rules_. Here's something from http://www.sk.com.br/sk-krash.html
(Quoted)"The best methods are therefore those that supply 'comprehensible input' in low anxiety situations, containing messages that students really want to hear. These methods do not force early production in the second language, but allow students to produce when they are 'ready', recognizing that improvement comes from supplying communicative and comprehensible input, and not from forcing and correcting production." Stephen Krashen
I wanted the children's environment, if not the level of attention given them, simple tasks, repeated phrases, the same experiences each day with the same words applied to them. And keeping no mind available, just soaking up the way to deal with 'this situation' or 'that'. I was hoping to be able to live with a family and as a 3rd person experience the kid's world or repetitions.
The second (or third) level of language speaking, (quoted) Our car. Papa away. Dry pants. All gone. See baby. Mail come. Children's two-word combinations are highly similar across cultures. Everywhere, children announce when objects appear, disappear, and move about, point out their properties and owners, comment on people doing things and seeing things, reject and request objects and activities, and ask about who, what, and where. (from http://users.ecs.soton.ac.uk/harnad/Papers/Py104/pinker.langacq.html)
If I had interaction on this level, what I have described and quoted, then I have no doubt that I would learn to speak faster than a baby, really they take years you know. And I would have picked up a lot more of the nonverbal culture, speed, style, gesture and attitude than I would in any university class.
I have a hard time seeing why the responses are all whiners. (All that I read.)
I know how to be objective and helpful. I know how to work with "what is". I know that life isn't always easy or the way I think I would design it for my own personal singular comfort and amusement. I have some flexibility and my Liver works.
Let me quote from one of my teachers, "Don't complain to anybody who can't do anything about it."
Either you get the picture or you don't. It's not about smiling, it's about being. Not being demanding and needy and co-dependent.
Deal with it.
--- Consciousness is a goal and a process. --- (next I correct the sig)
Consciousness is in the process, that is HOW you do it.
I looked, the WLAN is "b" which looks backwards. Anyone want to compare it to the Fujitsu which similarily equipped (but can get to higher RAM) runs at $1600. Fujitsu has combo drive, 2 USB2, 8.5 hours with bay battery (included in that price), external floppy, and (ugh) XP-home. (200 costs 100 more). And WLAN-g. I look at the Apple computers and the powerbook, metal housed, wireless built in, and see that (sensibly) they charge LESS for the smaller screen. Any comments? Again and again I find Apple to be "too much trouble", things dont run in it, you need an IT dept to figure things out (read comments on Apple boards on usenet), and I remember the one time I did user support on a new Apple-Mac... IT had to be sent back for bad hardware. Whew. It is so pretty tho. And I really really love the size of the 12" console. I saw a stripped Compaq the other day, really pretty but expensive and an old chip. All replies will be used in my considerations. Thanks