But that's an entirely different argument, with other viable alternatives. Why don't we amend the 2nd amendment to allow local and city governments to make individual decisions on the legality of certain kinds of firearms?
What makes you think that such an amendment would pass any easier than an outright repeal? You'd only need 13 states to stop it.
Not the prevention thereof.
Most statistics I've seen suggest that guns are used much more often for legitimate defense than they are for crime. In any case I can think of any number of other tools that are also used in crime and nobody is suggesting that we regulate them.
I'm arguing whether or not gun availability is even a good idea in the first place.
Then at least be honest about what you are purposing. To enact what you've suggested would require the assent of 38 US State Legislatures. That would seem to make it a non-starter.
Don't put me in harm's way because you've got a hard on for devices designed for MURDER.
I don't accept your conclusion that you are placed in harms way merely by my possession of a firearm.
No, stopping the sale of legal guns now doesn't take away your current fire arms
What part of "shall not be infringed" is so goddamn hard for you people to understand? Your solution is literally to shred the Constitution and take away a right that we've enjoyed since the dawn of the republic.
Like say, criminals who are out to commit murder or robbery
People with a criminal past are already barred from firearm ownership.
Way above it. I don't, and I suspect many of my fellow citizens don't want, that kind of responsibility. What if I miss and kill an innocent bystander? I couldn't live with that. What if I kill the criminal? Another thing I couldn't live with.
Nobody is forcing them to take that kind of responsbility. Just don't take away my ability to defend myself because you don't want to do the same.
I lived in upstate NY for 6 long years and I can attest to the fact that, apart from NYC, it is basically a red state full of religious types.
Which Upstate are you living in? I've lived here my whole life and I've never had that observation. Upstate is definitely more conservative than NYC (thank god) but it tends to be the fiscally minded small-government conservatives and not the religious types.
I thought less of him. But just for being stupid enough to let his picture get taken with a drug
Well, that was pretty stupid of him but in the day and age of the camera phone it's pretty hard to avoid having your picture taken. I think a lot less of the dipshit that took the picture and opted to give/sell it to a tabloid. Anybody with a half a brain could realize the likely outcome of that to a person like Phelps. Maybe I'm old fashioned but I wouldn't sell such a picture if I knew it was likely to ruin someones life/career.
not a real social benefit to be able to swim fast
Eh, it's a benefit to society in that it provides entertainment which provides rest and relaxation.
Permanently locking someone up is equally effective as killing them
Until they kill another inmate or corrections officer. Or escape. Or get let out by some flower child judge that feels bad for them.
costs less
So justice is too expensive now?
which in the end, is why we would be sinking to the level of the criminal.
We aren't sinking to the level of the criminal because it's accepted that the state has the power to deprive individuals of life, liberty or process after according them due process of law. We have given the state a monopoly on the use of force in these situations. If you accept that we aren't sinking to the level of kidnappers by locking up convicted criminals then it seems to me that you should also accept that we aren't sinking to the level of murderers if we execute them.
Exactly! DUE PROCESS. Which is why it's so expensive and makes so little sense. In order to fulfill its obligations, the state wastes so many FTEs on the criminal that it becomes inefficient. I think we can all agree that inefficiency in Government is a bad thing. So why kill 'em? Isn't forcing someone to sit in a cell making license plates for 70 years more vindictive?
I don't think you actually read the text I quoted from the 5th amendment. The mere fact that you aren't executing them but instead depriving them of liberty for the rest of their life doesn't entitle them to less due process.
I've never understood the argument that spending the rest of your life in prison for a crime you didn't commit is any better than being killed for a crime you didn't commit. Both are horrible and we need to take steps to ensure that they don't happen -- but I don't buy "the law isn't perfect" as a justification for eliminating the death penalty.
I've been charged with a crime I didn't commit. Mind you it wasn't a capital offense but it was a felony. The system prevailed for me when a grand jury of my peers looked at the evidence, considered my testimony and refused to indict me. This episode strengthened my confidence in our legal system (while simultaneously weakening my confidence in our law enforcement agencies, but that's another story). There is no other country on this planet where I would want to be as someone wrongfully accused.
So no, the law isn't perfect and can be wrong. But I still believe in capital punishment. When you've inflicted egregious harm on society, society has the right to put you out of our collective misery after you've been accorded due process of law.
But you're not afraid of a volley of bullets flying towards you?
With the bullets it's over before you realize what's happened. If the shooters know what they are doing you'll be dead in less than 30 seconds. With the needle they strap you down to a table and have to find a vein, then start a saline drip, then start the first drug.....
I do have something of an irrational fear of needles (spent too much time in the hospital as a kid) but even if I didn't I'd still prefer the firing squad. I would take the needle over the gas chamber though.
Since I've started this morbid discussion let's take it another level: What would you want for your last meal?;)
And in its infinite wisdom, Slashdot is now making me wait at least five minutes between posts. in my prior experience, this will become ten and then fifteen. It happens as soon as I get one downmod. I love Slashdot where the GNAA can post as much as they want, but with positive karma, I get effectively censored.
What's your karma at? I've never run into that problem and I've collected my fair share of troll/flamebait mods (as tends to happen with opinionated assholes like myself). My karma has always been at 'excellent' though and I've never had to wait more than the standard two minutes (less under the new system) to make posts.
This is not about legislating adulthood, it is about legislating religion. There is a difference.
Well, love it or hate it it's perfectly constitutional:
The transportation or importation into any State, Territory, or possession of the United States for delivery or use therein of intoxicating liquors, in violation of the laws thereof, is hereby prohibited.
The states are free to regulate liquor as they see fit. If you don't like how Utah does it then convince enough like minded people to move to Utah to change the state political balance. Personally I'll take this system over the Federal Government any day of the week -- imagine if we had something similiar for cannabis?
They also limit the alcohol content of beer below a certain percentage. It's a rather strange state.
That's not actually that uncommon. New York (hardly a red state full of religious types) does something similiar. New York also prohibits grocery stores from selling wine/spirits (they can sell beer though) and liquor stores from selling beer (they sell wine/spirits).
Lethal injection is considered humane because no pain is felt.
Says who? If you believe the anti-death penalty crowd it's horrible agonizing pain. I don't really know who to believe as every side has an agenda and we can't exactly ask the people who were executed what it was like. I suspect the reality is probably somewhere in the middle of the 'no pain' and 'worse than being burned alive' arguments.
I know it's not manly and tough but...
*shrug*, for me at least it doesn't have anything to do with that. I'd honestly rather be shot than strapped to a table and killed with a needle. A head shot would be even better and probably painless (the brain is destroyed faster than the pain receptors can fire) but I'd still take the shots to the heart over the needle. To each their own I guess....
Civilized societies have long moved towards executions that are as respectful of life as possible, as opposed to some societies which still publicly rape and stone to death.
Raping and/or stoning would be cruel and unusual punishment. Being shot isn't, IMHO.
Now...I'm thinking...if the RealID thing does finally come to fruition, well now...this national database would have some good data to throw in it. Let's cut benefits on (possibly coming) your national healthcare. Since you drink, and are exposed to smoke (well, you still can at most bars I go to)...you are a health risk and we the govt. won't pay as much for you.
Go ahead and laugh but this is one of the reasons that I'm leery of UHC. You just know that some jackass is going to use it to expand the war on vice. They started with cigarettes and alcohol -- next it will be soda or fast food. Sure am glad that we have a nanny state to fret about us though -- otherwise we could get hurt.
Utah still has(Had) a firing squad as method of execution until not long ago IIRC
What's wrong with that? If you believe in the death penalty then I don't see firing squads as being any worse than lethal injection. Hell, I'd actually prefer the firing squad myself -- I'm afraid of needles. If you don't believe in the death penalty then it seems that you shouldn't be limiting your criticism to Utah.
It's about time that China (I can see noone else with sufficient power) drops IP laws altogether and forces the rest of the world to just cope with it
You know, there is a happy medium somewhere between "absolutely no IP laws whatsoever" and lifetime + 100 year copyrights. And if China did that they'd instigate a trade world that would drag down the global economy and do them at least as much (if not more) harm as it would to the US or anybody else.
This can get complicated if you are lax. Be Aware of what's happening around you. You lapse, you lose!!(I formed my protocol from harsh and unforgiving circumstances.)
Let us get back on topic: Awareness and paying attention are the two caveats. Anything else is just icing on the cake. Live your life freely, but be aware of what happens around you....Sorry about the sermon!!
It's all moot if you don't know what's going on around you. I've learned this the hard way myself (thankfully not in a situation involving firearms). I find the Cooper color code to be a intuitive way of staying alert although there are other methods that people use.
This might be a dumb comparison but Coopers system actually reminds me of the defensive driving classes that I used to teach when I worked in the insurance business. "If this driver does this then I'll do that to get out of the way". It's all about keeping your eyes moving around and having a plan for how to respond if something bad happens. Then if something bad does happen you can just respond without having to think about it.
Maybe this is why the Cooper system seems so familiar to me. "If this guy does this I'm going to start thinking of him as a threat", or "If this guy does that I'm going to shoot him". I'd love to get to go to gunsite some day and see how the real professionals implement this type of thinking.
My team supplied security for the CIA agents escorting defectors out of E. Berlin. It was not all in fun! People bitch about certain groups, but the STASI were in aa class by themselves. *shudder*
I can imagine. My old boss emigrated from East Germany to the United States. She never talked much about it but when she did it was enough to make your skin crawl. Thank you for your service back then.
Sorry about the sermon!!
Keep preaching. I'm trying to soak up as much knowledge as I can:)
Personal philosophies will vary greatly here, and I won't take sides. My personal tactic was chamber empty for normal carry. (easy to rack the slide when drawing weapon)
The argument I've heard against that is that if you get ambushed and lose the use of one arm (it's pinned, you get shot in it, or whatever other reason) you have no way to bring your weapon into action. I'd tend to agree with you on not taking sides though -- ultimately it's up to the person carrying the weapon to decide the best method for themselves.
Now at home (it's a long story, but I'm not as paranoid as this is going to sound-I had legitimate reasons back when!), the.45 slept under my pillow cocked, locked, and loaded with the safety on-I felt I had good reason for this!)
That doesn't sound paranoid. I slept with a loaded shotgun next to my bed in my old apartment. I was in a good neighborhood and didn't have any particular reason to think that somebody was out to get me but with the floor plan of that apartment I had no escape route if somebody through the front door. For some reason that bothered me more than living in a crappy neighborhood but having an escape route (been there, done that as well)
the only 9mm pistol I would stake my life on!!!
I try not to pass judgment on the 'caliber wars' because people rarely agree. I've heard enough bad stories from friends in the military about the 9mm that I've thought twice of arming myself with one. Granted the military is limited to FMJ but I've also seen enough law enforcement agencies abandon the 9mm to make me remain skeptical about it. Even the New York State Police gave up on it and went to.45s (GAP not ACP, but still...)
I have little faith in a 9mm, as I carry 4 of them in me, and those that put them there are long gone!...Thanks Stasi! [wikipedia.org]
That sounds like it'd be quite the story over drinks..... Whatever the particulars were I'm glad you made it out:)
The only place I've ever lived that schools and most businesses shut down for the first several days of deer hunting season! LOL!
Businesses and schools don't close around here but we take deer season pretty seriously. Half of my co-workers will take the first week off work when it rolls around. The only thing that sucks about deer season around here is we are close enough to the city to get all of the assholes. Nothing gives hunting a worse image than some drunk city slicker bragging about the 70 pound doe he just bagged....
Your only point is that you are now backpedaling from your previous inaccurate statements while still trying to salvage your argument.
only got involved when it was in their interest
Nation-states act in their own interest? Are you just now figuring this out?
but despite Roosevelt's support for the war there was enough political inertia in the US that even if you were fully armed you still probably wouldn't have joined until after PH
Well, duh. The United States is a Representative Republic. Does it really surprise you that we wouldn't get involved in public opinion is against getting involved? Stop and ask yourself why the American public didn't want to get involved. Start by looking at the previous war and how our noble ideas for peace were ignored in favor of imposing a harsh peace on Germany that sowed resentment and set the stage for the rise of Hitler. Then consider how the money that we loaned the European nations to finance the war was never repaid. Think about the anti-colonial sentiment in the United States at that time and contrast it with the actions of the UK and France during the same period. Finally, consider the fact that there's almost as large of a German population in the United States as there is of a Anglo-Saxon population.
Slashdot Mirror
But that's an entirely different argument, with other viable alternatives. Why don't we amend the 2nd amendment to allow local and city governments to make individual decisions on the legality of certain kinds of firearms?
What makes you think that such an amendment would pass any easier than an outright repeal? You'd only need 13 states to stop it.
Not the prevention thereof.
Most statistics I've seen suggest that guns are used much more often for legitimate defense than they are for crime. In any case I can think of any number of other tools that are also used in crime and nobody is suggesting that we regulate them.
One more question - so you're afraid of needles, but not bullets?
Yes. I realize that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to most people but it is what it is and apparently I'm not alone.....
I'm arguing whether or not gun availability is even a good idea in the first place.
Then at least be honest about what you are purposing. To enact what you've suggested would require the assent of 38 US State Legislatures. That would seem to make it a non-starter.
Don't put me in harm's way because you've got a hard on for devices designed for MURDER.
I don't accept your conclusion that you are placed in harms way merely by my possession of a firearm.
No, stopping the sale of legal guns now doesn't take away your current fire arms
What part of "shall not be infringed" is so goddamn hard for you people to understand? Your solution is literally to shred the Constitution and take away a right that we've enjoyed since the dawn of the republic.
Like say, criminals who are out to commit murder or robbery
People with a criminal past are already barred from firearm ownership.
Way above it. I don't, and I suspect many of my fellow citizens don't want, that kind of responsibility. What if I miss and kill an innocent bystander? I couldn't live with that. What if I kill the criminal? Another thing I couldn't live with.
Nobody is forcing them to take that kind of responsbility. Just don't take away my ability to defend myself because you don't want to do the same.
I lived in upstate NY for 6 long years and I can attest to the fact that, apart from NYC, it is basically a red state full of religious types.
Which Upstate are you living in? I've lived here my whole life and I've never had that observation. Upstate is definitely more conservative than NYC (thank god) but it tends to be the fiscally minded small-government conservatives and not the religious types.
I, for one, welcome our half-fish super-fast-swimming overlords.
Kevin Costner?
I think much less of Michael Phelps for apologizing. He did absolutely nothing wrong.
You'd suck it up and apologize too if your livelihood was on the line....
I thought less of him. But just for being stupid enough to let his picture get taken with a drug
Well, that was pretty stupid of him but in the day and age of the camera phone it's pretty hard to avoid having your picture taken. I think a lot less of the dipshit that took the picture and opted to give/sell it to a tabloid. Anybody with a half a brain could realize the likely outcome of that to a person like Phelps. Maybe I'm old fashioned but I wouldn't sell such a picture if I knew it was likely to ruin someones life/career.
not a real social benefit to be able to swim fast
Eh, it's a benefit to society in that it provides entertainment which provides rest and relaxation.
Permanently locking someone up is equally effective as killing them
Until they kill another inmate or corrections officer. Or escape. Or get let out by some flower child judge that feels bad for them.
costs less
So justice is too expensive now?
which in the end, is why we would be sinking to the level of the criminal.
We aren't sinking to the level of the criminal because it's accepted that the state has the power to deprive individuals of life, liberty or process after according them due process of law. We have given the state a monopoly on the use of force in these situations. If you accept that we aren't sinking to the level of kidnappers by locking up convicted criminals then it seems to me that you should also accept that we aren't sinking to the level of murderers if we execute them.
Exactly! DUE PROCESS. Which is why it's so expensive and makes so little sense. In order to fulfill its obligations, the state wastes so many FTEs on the criminal that it becomes inefficient. I think we can all agree that inefficiency in Government is a bad thing. So why kill 'em? Isn't forcing someone to sit in a cell making license plates for 70 years more vindictive?
I don't think you actually read the text I quoted from the 5th amendment. The mere fact that you aren't executing them but instead depriving them of liberty for the rest of their life doesn't entitle them to less due process.
which would make me pretty nervous
Well, I gotta say that I don't have a lot of sympathy for a convicted murderer feeling nervous as the hour of his execution draws near.
The last ever pigeon on earth, roasted.
Hmm, interesting choice. I'd probably have to go with a good New York style pizzeria pizza.
Because the law can never be wrong, right?
I've never understood the argument that spending the rest of your life in prison for a crime you didn't commit is any better than being killed for a crime you didn't commit. Both are horrible and we need to take steps to ensure that they don't happen -- but I don't buy "the law isn't perfect" as a justification for eliminating the death penalty.
I've been charged with a crime I didn't commit. Mind you it wasn't a capital offense but it was a felony. The system prevailed for me when a grand jury of my peers looked at the evidence, considered my testimony and refused to indict me. This episode strengthened my confidence in our legal system (while simultaneously weakening my confidence in our law enforcement agencies, but that's another story). There is no other country on this planet where I would want to be as someone wrongfully accused.
So no, the law isn't perfect and can be wrong. But I still believe in capital punishment. When you've inflicted egregious harm on society, society has the right to put you out of our collective misery after you've been accorded due process of law.
Society has the moral obligation to remain on the high ground and not sink to the level of the criminal
Bullshit. Society has a moral obligation to protect the law-abiding members of said society.
Otherwise, we should just go back to killing anyone who does anything we don't like.
That was never intended to be the case in the United States:
nor shall any person ... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
But you're not afraid of a volley of bullets flying towards you?
With the bullets it's over before you realize what's happened. If the shooters know what they are doing you'll be dead in less than 30 seconds. With the needle they strap you down to a table and have to find a vein, then start a saline drip, then start the first drug.....
I do have something of an irrational fear of needles (spent too much time in the hospital as a kid) but even if I didn't I'd still prefer the firing squad. I would take the needle over the gas chamber though.
Since I've started this morbid discussion let's take it another level: What would you want for your last meal? ;)
Does that mean liberalism has concrete benefits in terms of murder rates?
Not if you look at New Orleans or Baltimore.....
And in its infinite wisdom, Slashdot is now making me wait at least five minutes between posts. in my prior experience, this will become ten and then fifteen. It happens as soon as I get one downmod. I love Slashdot where the GNAA can post as much as they want, but with positive karma, I get effectively censored.
What's your karma at? I've never run into that problem and I've collected my fair share of troll/flamebait mods (as tends to happen with opinionated assholes like myself). My karma has always been at 'excellent' though and I've never had to wait more than the standard two minutes (less under the new system) to make posts.
This is not about legislating adulthood, it is about legislating religion. There is a difference.
Well, love it or hate it it's perfectly constitutional:
The transportation or importation into any State, Territory, or possession of the United States for delivery or use therein of intoxicating liquors, in violation of the laws thereof, is hereby prohibited.
The states are free to regulate liquor as they see fit. If you don't like how Utah does it then convince enough like minded people to move to Utah to change the state political balance. Personally I'll take this system over the Federal Government any day of the week -- imagine if we had something similiar for cannabis?
They also limit the alcohol content of beer below a certain percentage. It's a rather strange state.
That's not actually that uncommon. New York (hardly a red state full of religious types) does something similiar. New York also prohibits grocery stores from selling wine/spirits (they can sell beer though) and liquor stores from selling beer (they sell wine/spirits).
Lethal injection is considered humane because no pain is felt.
Says who? If you believe the anti-death penalty crowd it's horrible agonizing pain. I don't really know who to believe as every side has an agenda and we can't exactly ask the people who were executed what it was like. I suspect the reality is probably somewhere in the middle of the 'no pain' and 'worse than being burned alive' arguments.
I know it's not manly and tough but...
*shrug*, for me at least it doesn't have anything to do with that. I'd honestly rather be shot than strapped to a table and killed with a needle. A head shot would be even better and probably painless (the brain is destroyed faster than the pain receptors can fire) but I'd still take the shots to the heart over the needle. To each their own I guess....
Civilized societies have long moved towards executions that are as respectful of life as possible, as opposed to some societies which still publicly rape and stone to death.
Raping and/or stoning would be cruel and unusual punishment. Being shot isn't, IMHO.
Now...I'm thinking...if the RealID thing does finally come to fruition, well now...this national database would have some good data to throw in it. Let's cut benefits on (possibly coming) your national healthcare. Since you drink, and are exposed to smoke (well, you still can at most bars I go to)...you are a health risk and we the govt. won't pay as much for you.
Go ahead and laugh but this is one of the reasons that I'm leery of UHC. You just know that some jackass is going to use it to expand the war on vice. They started with cigarettes and alcohol -- next it will be soda or fast food. Sure am glad that we have a nanny state to fret about us though -- otherwise we could get hurt.
Utah still has(Had) a firing squad as method of execution until not long ago IIRC
What's wrong with that? If you believe in the death penalty then I don't see firing squads as being any worse than lethal injection. Hell, I'd actually prefer the firing squad myself -- I'm afraid of needles. If you don't believe in the death penalty then it seems that you shouldn't be limiting your criticism to Utah.
Illegal street guns get their start off somewhere else in the world as legal weapons.
So your solution to this is to take away my legally owned weapons? I bet we could bring car thefts down a lot too if we outlawed cars.
but the availability of guns make the gun problem worse.
I would argue that the availability of guns to the population deters crime.
It's about time that China (I can see noone else with sufficient power) drops IP laws altogether and forces the rest of the world to just cope with it
You know, there is a happy medium somewhere between "absolutely no IP laws whatsoever" and lifetime + 100 year copyrights. And if China did that they'd instigate a trade world that would drag down the global economy and do them at least as much (if not more) harm as it would to the US or anybody else.
This can get complicated if you are lax. Be Aware of what's happening around you. You lapse, you lose!!(I formed my protocol from harsh and unforgiving circumstances.)
Let us get back on topic: Awareness and paying attention are the two caveats. Anything else is just icing on the cake. Live your life freely, but be aware of what happens around you....Sorry about the sermon!!
It's all moot if you don't know what's going on around you. I've learned this the hard way myself (thankfully not in a situation involving firearms). I find the Cooper color code to be a intuitive way of staying alert although there are other methods that people use.
This might be a dumb comparison but Coopers system actually reminds me of the defensive driving classes that I used to teach when I worked in the insurance business. "If this driver does this then I'll do that to get out of the way". It's all about keeping your eyes moving around and having a plan for how to respond if something bad happens. Then if something bad does happen you can just respond without having to think about it.
Maybe this is why the Cooper system seems so familiar to me. "If this guy does this I'm going to start thinking of him as a threat", or "If this guy does that I'm going to shoot him". I'd love to get to go to gunsite some day and see how the real professionals implement this type of thinking.
My team supplied security for the CIA agents escorting defectors out of E. Berlin. It was not all in fun! People bitch about certain groups, but the STASI were in aa class by themselves. *shudder*
I can imagine. My old boss emigrated from East Germany to the United States. She never talked much about it but when she did it was enough to make your skin crawl. Thank you for your service back then.
Sorry about the sermon!!
Keep preaching. I'm trying to soak up as much knowledge as I can :)
Personal philosophies will vary greatly here, and I won't take sides. My personal tactic was chamber empty for normal carry. (easy to rack the slide when drawing weapon)
The argument I've heard against that is that if you get ambushed and lose the use of one arm (it's pinned, you get shot in it, or whatever other reason) you have no way to bring your weapon into action. I'd tend to agree with you on not taking sides though -- ultimately it's up to the person carrying the weapon to decide the best method for themselves.
Now at home (it's a long story, but I'm not as paranoid as this is going to sound-I had legitimate reasons back when!), the .45 slept under my pillow cocked, locked, and loaded with the safety on-I felt I had good reason for this!)
That doesn't sound paranoid. I slept with a loaded shotgun next to my bed in my old apartment. I was in a good neighborhood and didn't have any particular reason to think that somebody was out to get me but with the floor plan of that apartment I had no escape route if somebody through the front door. For some reason that bothered me more than living in a crappy neighborhood but having an escape route (been there, done that as well)
the only 9mm pistol I would stake my life on!!!
I try not to pass judgment on the 'caliber wars' because people rarely agree. I've heard enough bad stories from friends in the military about the 9mm that I've thought twice of arming myself with one. Granted the military is limited to FMJ but I've also seen enough law enforcement agencies abandon the 9mm to make me remain skeptical about it. Even the New York State Police gave up on it and went to .45s (GAP not ACP, but still...)
I have little faith in a 9mm, as I carry 4 of them in me, and those that put them there are long gone!...Thanks Stasi! [wikipedia.org]
That sounds like it'd be quite the story over drinks..... Whatever the particulars were I'm glad you made it out :)
The only place I've ever lived that schools and most businesses shut down for the first several days of deer hunting season! LOL!
Businesses and schools don't close around here but we take deer season pretty seriously. Half of my co-workers will take the first week off work when it rolls around. The only thing that sucks about deer season around here is we are close enough to the city to get all of the assholes. Nothing gives hunting a worse image than some drunk city slicker bragging about the 70 pound doe he just bagged....
My only point regarding America was that they
Your only point is that you are now backpedaling from your previous inaccurate statements while still trying to salvage your argument.
only got involved when it was in their interest
Nation-states act in their own interest? Are you just now figuring this out?
but despite Roosevelt's support for the war there was enough political inertia in the US that even if you were fully armed you still probably wouldn't have joined until after PH
Well, duh. The United States is a Representative Republic. Does it really surprise you that we wouldn't get involved in public opinion is against getting involved? Stop and ask yourself why the American public didn't want to get involved. Start by looking at the previous war and how our noble ideas for peace were ignored in favor of imposing a harsh peace on Germany that sowed resentment and set the stage for the rise of Hitler. Then consider how the money that we loaned the European nations to finance the war was never repaid. Think about the anti-colonial sentiment in the United States at that time and contrast it with the actions of the UK and France during the same period. Finally, consider the fact that there's almost as large of a German population in the United States as there is of a Anglo-Saxon population.