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Utah Mulls a Database of Bar Customers
sundancing alerts us to a political dustup in the state of Utah, which doesn't have bars like the rest of the country does. Instead, "private clubs" require you to fill out an application and pay a fee if you want to have a drink outside the home. While there is pressure to reform this arrangement — one argument is that it's bad for tourism — the head of the state senate recently floated a proposal to create a database of every bar patron's visits. Now Utah's governor has called that idea "almost Orwellian," adding that "it's very difficult to legislate adulthood," and its supporters seem to be backing off. The idea of requiring bar patrons to swipe their drivers licenses as proof of age is still on the table, though.
This idea is absolutely mormonic!
It's true I tell you, feller at work's next door neighbour read it in the paper.
Utah still has(Had) a firing squad as method of execution until not long ago IIRC. Yeah, this is surprising /sarcasm
There Can Be Only One...
Wouldn't the story more accurately be titled "Utah stops mulling a database of bar customers"?
That's really scary! Is it really true that there are no conventional bars in UT? I sincerely hope this is inaccurate. Can anyone from UT give some insight? Do Mormons in UT's gov't really control your lives in so much depth that they legislate what you are allowed to do in your own free time?
*boggles*
Tourism? In Utah?
I honestly don't mean this as a troll, but seriously, how much non-Mormon tourism is there in Utah? The only place I can think of (of the top of my head) there that might attract tourists is Arches National Park (made somewhat famous in environmentalist circles by Edward Abbey's book "Desert Solitaire"), and it mostly attracts hikers not partiers. But, aside from that, how many non-Mormons actually come to Utah as tourists? And even if you were such a tourist, who the hell goes to Utah to drink?!? Isn't that what Nevada is for?
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
Where I live they like to only license them as 'private clubs' and often need you to 'join' by letting them swipe your driver's license. I walk out when they ask for that. I walk out if they want my driver's license and credit card to open a tab. I walk out if I have to do anything more than someone sitting at a restaurant who has a couple of beers with dinner. So far, I've not suffered for it. But if anyone from Utah is listening, I won't visit Utah if I have to become a club member to have a drink at the hotel bar. If I've been fine not going to a few establishments near my home, I'm pretty damn certain I won't miss anything in Utah. Good luck with attracting tourists.
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This is not about legislating adulthood, it is about legislating religion. There is a difference.
Something we have to do in the city of London, well if visiting Shuntz anyway.
theocracy is alive and well
alcohol and marijuana are viewed as evil demonic scourges
being gay is seen as a moral disease
no, we're not in tehran
we're in utah
fucking pathetic
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Not being an American, I had to visit the US for the first time a few years back on a work trip. Texas to be exact. I could not believe that I had to show photo ID/fill out a form every time I wanted a beer, no matter what kind of establishment or time of day it was. Asking why, I was told it was to track drink drivers or some such tripe. For sure it all went into some database somewhere...
I checked out a database on violent crime broken down by state. Utah's overall violent crime rate is less than half that of the nation, and murder rate 1/3 of that of the nation as a whole.
So while I don't like the "big brother" mentality, the moral code does have concrete benefits.
See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
Say what?!?!?
Ok...this is really getting scary. Why should I have to swipe my drivers license (remenber, it was given as proof of driving certification, tax..etc) to get a drink? And why the hell should anyone know when I go to a bar (or anywhere else for that matter)?
Now...I'm thinking...if the RealID thing does finally come to fruition, well now...this national database would have some good data to throw in it. Let's cut benefits on (possibly coming) your national healthcare. Since you drink, and are exposed to smoke (well, you still can at most bars I go to)...you are a health risk and we the govt. won't pay as much for you. Or even with private insurance, I'm sure they'll get ahold of this sooner or later.
Amd..once the populace accepts swiping for bar entry...well, I'm sure they won't mind swiping for entry into drug stores, that would help gather your meds usage. How about grocery store for purchases, that way we can track your unhealthy eating habits.
And then of course...no need for EZPass...your nifty new drivers license will have RFID...so, that will make it easier for you....we can track your travels.
Ok, some of this sound far fetched? It might not be....the govt. lawnakers start small enough, but, pretty much every law passed has been expanded or abused.
In discussions yesterday, I recalled that when they first started passing seatbelt laws, they stated emphatically that the cops could NOT pull you over for not wearing one, but, if they pulled you over for something else, like running a stop sign, and saw you weren't wearing one....they could cite you.
Well, a few years later, once that was agreeable....they changed it, to being able to pull you over if they see you without one.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
If you have to belong to a private club to drink outside of your home how does this cause a problem for tourism? What tourists are joining these clubs just to have a few drinks during their visits to the state? Maybe the "private club" concept is different in Utah than PA but around here if you had to join a private club to get a drink it just wouldn't happen in the matter of a week or two.
Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
I like shaved pussy.
I believe Utah requires a permit for that too.
"has called that idea "almost Orwellian," adding that "it's very difficult to legislate adulthood,""
Tell that to the people who have been running the war on (some) drugs for the last 70 years. Oh wait, we already know they won't listen to reason and logic.
This story is at least 3rd-hand...
Back in the mid-20th-century, Houston, Texas, was dry. Hotels could have "members only" bars for their guests.
Well, a Baptist preacher was staying at a hotel with a bar. Back in those days Baptist preachers were anti-alcohol, and this preacher was no exeption.
For reasons I don't remember, another person, let's call him Joe, asked him why he was a member of a private bar.
Well, the preacher was incensed. He would never do something so un-Christian as to join a private booze club.
Joe said "I'll prove it" and had the hotel bar show the preacher the membership list. His name was on it.
The Reverend was fit to be tied. He demanded that his name be stricken from the book immediately.
There was one slight problem:
By law, the bar membership list included everyone on the hotel registry. He was a guest at the hotel.
I heard this story decades after it happened. It's still funny.
already require this. In Denton, Texas (at least between 2000 & 2005 when I was there), you had to swipe your driver's license at every bar you entered. After signing a receipt your first visit, you were then a member of the private club.
Who wants to bet that somehow there is some club owners association that oversees the "clubs" and the association has to pay a fee or percentage to someone somewhere in government there. It's always about the damn money and/or control people! I'm just a disappointed idealist, you can call me a cynic.
"It's ok, I'm completely secure as long as my iron is off"
I'll have a Martini....truncated not deleted!!!...damn watermarks...
I saw an amusing poll on ESPN about Michael Phelps, who recently admitted to using pot.
Across the country about 75%-90% said they thought no less of the best swimmer in the world for using a recreational drug.
Except in Utah where almost 50% said they thought less of him. They are very detached from the mainstream.
"I only speak the truth"
Karma: null(Mostly affected by an unassigned variable)
And I thought Ontario was bad, with the LCBO having a monopoly over liquor sales in the province; and our provincial legislators all too willing to buy into MADD's hysterics every time someone dares to suggest that maybe, just maybe, grocery stores should be able to sell beer and wine.
Lethal injection is considered humane because no pain is felt.
There's a fair bit of debate in this point, leading to a Supreme Court case. Lethal Injection Potentially Not Painless
You better watch out, there may be dogs about . .
In Texas, cities can decide to be wet or dry. In a "dry" city, a restaurant that serves alcohol must be a "private club." It's not so much a "private club" in that there are significant membership requirements, anyone can join if they're of age and there's no membership fee or ongoing responsibilities. I'm sure it's just another way for the city to tax the restaurant - how much does it cost to get a "private club" permit?
So if you're eating out and you want to have a beer, you must present a club membership card. Most restaurants have signed up with a company called Unicard. If you sign up at one Unicard restaurant...er..."private club" then you are automatically a member everywhere that takes Unicard. Years ago you actually got a separate membership card. Now it's associated with your driver's license number. When I was waiting tables the computer would refuse to let me input a drink order until I swiped a customer's Unicard (or driver's license). I'm sure that the computer was checking with the Unicard database to make sure that the person was actually a member. Was it tracking them? I have no idea. Probably so, in case the restaurant needed to look back and prove that a certain customer was in fact a member of the club when they bought that drink. Aside from the inherent lawsuit risks of serving alcohol, the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission is known for being ruthless and handing down VERY expensive fines to the restaurant and the waiter for any infraction.
A significant difference here is that Unicard is a private company, not a government entity. I'm sure they'll be quick to share their database if asked by a court, especially if it involves "terrists" or kiddie porn.
Disclaimer: IANAW (any more). I haven't waited tables for several years and I rarely drink when I'm out. Things may be different now.
Got an RFID tag in your drivers license? Throw it in the microwave for 2 seconds.
Got a magstripe on your drivers license? Rub it with a magnet a few times.
Got a barcode on your drivers license? Use a little fine grit sandpaper on a few blocks.
Oh, that's funny, I wonder why your reader can't read my license. Must not be working right.
Still, by an academic point of view, it's strikes to me so strange on why do you accept the sale and consumption of alcohol, but you don't accept of other light drugs (cannabis for instance).
Most countries, with the notable exception of Holland (where both sale and consumption is legal) and some other European countries were consumption is legal, allow alcohol while they don't allow other light drugs.
Now my question is, have you ever seen a drunk guy in comparison to a guy that smoke some joints? Or what do you think it's the percentage of heavy alcohol consumers that destroy their life vs heavy cannabis smokers that destroy their lives? Or worst, have you noticed how violent some people that drink alcohol get vs cannabis smokers?
It's somewhat hypocrite that we accept alcohol consumption for cultural reasons, but that we don't accept cannabis (as an example). Why can understand that people drink wine or even beer as an acquired taste, but when you drink vodka or rum, well, you do it to get drunk.
I just think that we are all adults and so we can choose what to do or not with our lives. Just ban any publicity to light drugs but allow people to make their own choice about consuming then or not.
a drivers license in a wallet will be very hard to read like a I-pass / EZ-pass that can be blocked by some types windshields and needs to be mounted in the right place.
ssia
Go green: turn off your refrigerator.
Google "unicard plano". The city of Plano (1/3rd of a million, one of the 50 largest cities in the US) requires any group of 4 or less people swipe their card (done by the server out of the sight of the patron, but they still sign a reciept/"membership card"). This is to get around some equally orwellian Texas liquor law.
moox. for a new generation.
I live in Utah and these sorts of rumblings are a mainstay. They never pass because they're stupid, and everyone knows they're stupid, but they're a way for pols to get their name in the paper in a way they think will appeal to their constituency.
In this case, though, it appears to be backfiring. Even Waddoups' heavily-LDS district is largely rolling their eyes at this one. It probably won't damage him, though.
I DO, however, expect that if Utah deploys REAL ID driver's licenses -- the kind with chips in them -- that they'll start to require electronic age verification just because it's so much harder to forge than a driver's license. Assuming no databases are built, that's a reasonable approach to limiting under-age drinking.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
The last time I visited I didnt have to fill anything out - just pay a small cover to "join the club".
Dude, you passed "almost" back at "there are no bars in Utah".
but its not a disease
unless you also want to consider liking doritos, or going skiing, or other perfectly harmless pursuits to be diseases too
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
I was in Utah a year ago and got a beer at Applebee's in a suburb of Salt Lake City. I was carded (per Applebee's policy) but I was never asked about joining a club or anything. What's all this about joining a club to drink?
Vote for global prefs bug
I spent a summer in rural Utah back in the '80s. The local "bar" didn't sell alcohol. You had to buy beer at the grocery store (don't know where they bought liquor) and bring it with you. The bar provided mixers and a local band that consisted of 2 teenagers playing guitar with drum tracks from a portable tape player with a microphone shoved up against the speaker. They actually did a pretty good version of Freebird. Very Napoleon Dynamite-ish.
I travelled from Europe to raft down the Colorado. Along the way we stopped in to Arches. Nice Spot.
Truthfully, as a couple, my wife and I generally were eating when we were drinking, so we didn't really notice anything different
If I'd gone there 20 years earlier as a Single Guy, beer may have been a higher priority.
There's a lot of Mountain Biking there.
Go visit Saudi and then moan about your licker laws.
I have, and it's a puzzling experience. I was there on IT business for a week, about a year before they hosted the Olympics.
In the area around Park City, you didn't need to join the "private club." At a casual Italian place, we all wanted to order a beer. You couldn't say to the server, "What do you have on tap?" She replied by bringing a beer menu because it wasn't appropriate (perhaps illegal?) for her to actually discuss the alcoholic beverages with us.
We did the "private club" thing at a very good steakhouse in Salt Lake City. I believe it was $10 for the "membership." If you ordered a mixed drink--any mixed drink--the server automatically said, "Would you like a sidecar with that?" (A sidecar being an additional measured shot of whatever booze was involved.) Martinis arrived in glasses only 3/4 full because the hooch was so precisely measured.
The freakish thing about it was that, because it was a "private club," it was perfectly OK to smoke anywhere--right at the table, right next to a table that might or might not have been hosting smokers. No problem. So the other big Mormon no-no, tobacco, is apparently not quite as regulated.
My observation over the week were that the Mormons among our hosts had no problems at all with our ordering a drink, beer, or wine at dinner. The company hosted us at a very nice private dinner party on our last evening, and alcohol was readily available. I chose not to drink that evening to conform to their sensibilities, then screwed up by ordering an iced tea.
"Here's what's happening. You're starting to drive like your Dad..." - Red Green
Utah is a very Mormon State. Keep that in mind as the Mormons spread their influence across the world.
I'd so vote you +insightful. My only guess is that the picture is older than his Olympic escapades, because any sane person should have dropped the bong and destroyed the camera.
PS: Kellogg's already dropped him as a sponsor
From a Canadian viewpoint, one of the fascinating things about the U.S. is that, in many ways, it's composed of a few dozen political experiments, all going on at once. Each succeeds to the extent that people choose to live in a particular state and thrive there.
Utah is not New York. They could be on different planets, and yet they are both populated by people who call themselves Americans. The opportunities for comparative anthropology are immense.
I'm a Programmer. That's one level above Software Engineer and one level below Engineer.
You are still the only state that can, at times, makes us in Idaho feel a little less backwards. Thanks.
Our mayor would just as soon shutdown all the bars in the city if it weren't for the tax revenue they generate. He is constantly grumbling about the problems that the downtown bars cause and blaming it on the mixing of alcohol and underage kids despite the fact that nearly all of the problems are occurring at underage clubs that serve no alcohol, while the all-ages music venues that he hates so much (because they have drinking and non-drinking sections in the same venue), are the source of very little crime.
Anyway, all that is to say that they keep bumping the requirements and liabilities that bar tenders have to verify their patrons' ages. They have been known to send barely under-age moles around to bars with fake ID's and fine bars if the bouncers didn't notice that the ID was fake. They also made it against the law to serve alcohol to people with vertical licenses (under-age folks have their licenses printed vertically rather than horizontally in NM), even if it says that they are over 21. Makes celebrating your 21st birthday at a bar difficult.
A while back a friend of mine was playing a show at a bar I hadn't been to before. I got to the door and the bouncer asked for my ID, so I handed it to him like normal. Before I even noticed what he was doing he swiped it through some machine mounted on the other side of the wall. I was pissed. If I'd known he was going to do that I would have turned around and left. Seeing as how the damage was already done I stayed for the show, but I told the bouncer that I would never be returning to this bar again. I didn't think to ask for the manager, I should have.
Anyway, given the pressure on them by the city, I can understand why the bars would want to protect themselves by doing this, but I don't know what that machines is doing with my information. It could just be reading the magstripe and displaying the info on it (nevermind that magstripes are easier and cheaper to fake that the visual aspects of the license), but it could also very well be checking with some database to verify that the license is valid, especially being mounted on the wall where you can't see if there is a telephone wire running to it. I'm not going to submit to that garbage.
Not necessarily: as you hinted, what he's done for a living ain't exactly rocket science, and in fact the two are probably exclusive most of the time (targeted best use of limited genetic resources, ya know).
As the Darwin Awards remind us, just because there's a lot riding on people making intelligent choices - like staying alive - doesn't mean they actually will make them.
Being in the verification industry...
A few years ago, I became aware of one company which manufactures yellow colored "swipe" products for ID Age Verification, and it no only captures the date of birth, but everything on the license, such as your home address etc.
They even go as far as providing software that stores this information locally on a computer database, with the intention that the business owner can have this information available in case they want to send you (cough) "promotional mail", such as a sale on a bottle of wine at a liquor store......
I don't know if this is the case today, but it was certainly something that raised a brow with me a few years ago regarding customers privacy.
I've yet to come across any youthful geek-goth-emo-indy-gamer-progressive-wirehead-gearhead whatever who views him or herself as "the mainstream." Everybody is just too cool for the room, proud to be part of that hip 10% who think or do something a different way. To criticize the people of Utah for being "detached from the mainstream" is the height of hypocrisy.
In fact, in a nation of talkers, nobody walks the walk like the Utah folk. You may not agree with the way they live their lives -- in fact, that's kinda the point, ennit? -- but you gotta respect their capacity for shaping their world into their worldview. I mean, they carved out a goddam state for themselves, they make the laws, and if you don't like it, stay the fuck out. Let's see the Gays, Catholics, Muslims, Libertarians, Han-Shot-Firsters try that and succeed.
I may not agree with every aspect of their lifestyle or beliefs, but I do like the way they get things done.
the government-tracking idea is a bad one
but the ID-swipe idea is a good one
it could even result in an intelligent bar system where your "usual" orders are automatically created as buttons on the order-entry console
streamline ordering and reduce errors and eliminate having to explain things to the new kid
Certain gas stations, bars and clubs and such in California have scanners already and I am sure other states have them also. I see no reason at all not to have them so long as they at most keep a local list of the nights party goers and wipe each morning and as long as there was a fair notice that your information would be held in case of an incident.
Making a bar transmit my data across the net to a state database each time I stop by the watering hole after work is just ludicrous IMO.
The only uses I can see for this information are to hold a bar responsible for DUI's (Already done in California) and to violate people who might be on probation and are not allowed to go to bars or buy booze. Neither should be automated.(again IMO)
So as an exercise to the reader, what other uses could there be?
P.S. when I went to post the CAPTCHA word was "unfair" lol
Utah has become the joking state of the country. They have become so obsessed with babying every citizen there. Look at their video game laws they are trying to pass. They just believe that they have a better understanding on everything and need to control everyones lives. About time you back-hand a politician and tell them they aren't the masters but the slaves to the people.
So they'll keep an eye on each other and stay out of your beer cooler.
(As told by my grandfather, RIP 1970)
What?
A few days ago I walked into a sport bar in Dallas. I was asked to show my driver license at the entrance, which seemed reasonable. Then the guy swiped my card, without asking permission. Then he handed me a print-out with my name and address and asked me to sign that I promise to be well behaved while inside the bar, or something of the sort.
We walked out and found a more reasonable bar.
"Greatest Snow On Earth" and they're right.
I'd gladly pay double (and generally do!) to ski Deer Valley than...
Why, for the love of god, would you want to ski the greatest snow on earth after a snowcat has ruined it? Have you lost your mind?
They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
So you are saying that Phelps has less than half a brain? When he decided to become a professional athlete, whose income depends on (a) his athletic performance and (b) his public image, he should have been aware that his public life is exactly that, public.
When someone's career is selling an image, his life should be what the image portrays, or he would be a fraud.
Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I think laws were made to be obeyed. If you think some drugs shouldn't be prohibited, you should campaign to have those laws rescinded. As the ancient Romans said, "dura lex sed lex", the law may be hard but it's still the law.
under a comment about homosexuality
unless you are offering your services
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
If the system for electronic verification (and you don't think "the kids" can forge a bar code ?) collects info then you do have a database of all drinkers. You can't order a "double" in Utah, even in the nicest steakhouses. Since "no alcohol" is a rule of the LDS church, I think this has great potential for embarrassment of folks who may otherwise have their "temple recommend" . I'd think hardcore drinkers could find someplace else "out west" to live. Montana and Washington come to mind.
Liking doritos or going skiing do not cause sterility. To determine whether something is a disease or not one can try to think of what would happen if everybody had that same condition. If everybody had the condition of homosexuality, humankind would have become extinct by now, so it is a disease, mortal to the species although it may not seem to cause too much harm to the individual.
You made me think of an interesting way to solve the "death penalty question" once and for all. Have the execution be a rotating responsibility, similar to jury duty. If we as a society deem it to be worthy we should have a shared responsibility to do it. If people don't have it in them to pull the lever, then perhaps it should be abolished. Conversely if we really feel strongly enough in the concept of the penalty then it should be no problem, since we agree that the person in the chair is deserving of the punishment.
This is necessary in Utah. This makes it impossible to get drunk and hook up with anyone other than a relative.
(Yes, I've actually been to Mormon parties, and yes, I'm being sarcastic. I've had great friends who were Mormon, they make absolutely wonderful neighbors and are very dedicated family people. However, their adult "parties" tend to be quiet, depressing affairs where everyone appears to be afraid to have any fun. My daughter also dropped in on a church picnic the local Mormon church was having in the park; despite the emphasis on scripture, she enjoyed the children's activities.)
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
There's also Zion National Park, Bryce Canyon, Arches, the Grand Staircase National Monument, a couple of state parks of near stature, a bunch of national forests... if you like outdoor recreation, Utah's a pretty fine place to visit or live.
Tweet, tweet.
I am both a Utahn and a Mormon. Please understand that the Utah legislature frequently does a poor job of representing either group. While I can't claim to speak for everyone, almost all the Mormons I know think this proposal is stupid, and as the governor (also a Mormon) said, Orwellian. The state legislature is well-known for being right-of-center even for here, and like all legislatures everywhere, for proposing its share of dumb ideas.
Saddle up: Riding with Robots
I spent a week in UT a couple of years ago and I am from MI, where most people take up drinking in the winter months. I was aware of the odd drinking laws going in to the bars, they just carded me, saw that I was from out of state and waved me on through. I can't really say that the beer was any weaker than back home, drank both bottled and draft. It might just be the places that I went, but it seemed like the local businesses knew how to cater to patrons from out of state like a normal state would instead of making visitors jump through all of the hoops that locals need to go through. Then again, that was a few years ago so things might be different now.
I DO, however, expect that if Utah deploys REAL ID driver's licenses -- the kind with chips in them -- that they'll start to require electronic age verification just because it's so much harder to forge than a driver's license. Assuming no databases are built, that's a reasonable approach to limiting under-age drinking.
I agree, but I wonder if Utah will go for REAL ID. They're one of several states who've expressed opposition to the idea:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REAL_ID_Act#State_adoption_and_non-compliance
Tweet, tweet.
I know this because my "if I ever get AIDS" plan (prior to marriage) was to go out via heroin. Yes, I am an idiot. Thanks for asking
You better watch out, there may be dogs about . .
every 'religion' is merely a cult that reached critical mass.
In Utah many drinkers and non-drinkers will go to clubs with their friends. A non-drinker may even be at a restaurant or bar with friends (BTW, under the proposed law, if you went to a place like Chili's, decided the wait was too long, sat at the bar dining area, you would probably have to swipe your id to get in). Now, let's say you swiped your id but didn't drink (or only had 1 or 2 drinks, and are still quite sober). You then drive home. On the way, you get into a car accident. The police then check this wonderful database and see that you were just at a bar. You get a DUI. Sound fair? Part of the database usage has been proposed to check if DUI incidents are valid. So, you could easily be assumed DUI because you were recently scanned in at a bar or club somewhere. This law is awful, and will only give the police more power to be stupid.
... someone probably ought to say something.
Want to do anything, anything at all and not get busted? Say: my religion says I must do it...
There are some quite ready and obvious counterexamples. You can't get away with relatively harmless things like prayer in public schools or religious drug use (unless you're an American Indian). In general, religious defenses against U.S. and state statutes are rare, and even more rarely successful.
If you're saying that on a social level, some people will extend approval to even some illegal actions, your statement is somewhat defensible, although this isn't particularly a unique feature of religion. But if you're saying that religion is actually a functional defense against criminal behavior (included in "anything, anything at all") then congratulations, you've made your very own contribution to a divorce of rationalism and anti-religion axe grinding.
Tweet, tweet.
it has been observed extensively in hundreds of other animals, has been part of human behavior since before we even evolved to become humans- it occurs in all of our simian relatives, and is mentioned in historical texts from every culture that ever existed
it is a sexual behavior. no worse than any heterosexual behavior or kink
and yes, if everyone only engaged in homosexual behavior, humanity would go extinct. and? this a completely retarded observation. its like saying if everyone ate hot chilis we would all starve. humanity is never going to only eat chilis. humanity is never going to engage in homosexuality beyond 10% of the population. so what's your point in fearing or being hostile to the practice?
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Admittedly, I wasn't paying attention, but when I went skiing at Alta last year I went into the lodge, there was a place with a thing that looked alot like a bar, and I was able to order several pitchers of beer at it.
Hmm.
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
Utah's governor called the idea "almost Orwellian". He's almost right.
As far as people who have religious disagreements go, I've personally found my interactions with Mormons to be much more pleasant than me interactions with religious Catholics, southern Baptists, Muslims, or vegans. They generally politely try to excuse themselves if they disagree with something or avoid the issue, rather than lambasting you about whatever their pet issue is.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Where's the Australian connection?
The biggest proponents of Yes-on-8, both by on-the-ground activism of bishops and priests, and by actual yes votes, were the Catholics, and I don't see anyone scapegoating them. Probably because they're an important voting bloc so you have to be nice to them, while the Mormons are a small enough minority that they're a useful scapegoat.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Seriously, if somebody gets all huffy about somebody cracking a joke about their religion, they must not be that secure in their beliefs.
That or they hold their beliefs sacred and important. Perhaps there is nothing in your life worthy of reverence or respect, but there are some people on the planet that wrap their time around more important things than just their work and their favorite Monday night tv shows. Finding your mockery of their lives' foundations to be rude, disrespectful, and distasteful isn't insecurity on their part, it's complete inconsideration on yours. Have you ever had the balls to tell someone "Dude, that's not funny." or do you take your lessons from 14-year-olds on what is and is not appropriate? What kind of a man has to make fun of someone else's belief system? Seriously?
I am the richest astronaut ever to win the superbowl.
When snowboarding at big sky, getting into the bar meant filling out the membership card the pretty hostess gave me, and if IIRC, having somebody who already had a membership say "sure, he's with me".
I'll never understand why everyone thinks Mormons are crazier than any other religious person. It's still the same zombie Jesus rhetoric.
Because Mormons take that typical zombie Jesus rhetoric, and top it with a healthy dose of good ol' insanity. Golden plates with seer stones? The first man and woman lived in North America? "True" native americans were white? The list goes on and on...
Perl - $Just @when->$you ${thought} s/yn/tax/ &couldn\'t %get $worse;
For those that actually don't read the laws. The private club thing is not for drinking it is for the smoking part. Utah has a clean air act(Utah is not the only one with this law btw) that prohibits smoking inside buildings that are public. For the bars to get around this law they must be private so their patrons can smoke in the bar. It has nothing to do with ordering a beer or a shot or anything else. If this was the case every resturant in state would have to be "private" cause you can order a drink from
Chili's or Applebees etc.
I played in a band last year that went on Warped Tour. We broke down and got stuck in St. George, Utah. It was June, and approximately 3,000 degrees Fahrenheit for the duration of our stay there (we were stuck about a week). There was a total of one bars in St. George, and it was beer only (It's called "The One and Only". In addition, the beers were not full strength. They have to have custom brewed Guinness that tastes completely horrible and has less than the expected alcohol content of regular Guinness. We negotiated a deal to play at the one bar in town every night we were there, hoping to at least get free crappy beer since we were stuck in arguably the worst state of the union.
I have Mormon friends. The Mormon lifestyle is healthy and wise in numerous ways. But the religion is clearly based on horse shit. There is no way a known charlatan found golden plates from a missing Jewish tribe that got wiped out in the Americas. It's OBVIOUSLY poppy cock.
Further, their religion is based on Christianity, which is also full of holes scientifically, and they've further edited that down.
Their opposition to alcohol comes from a section of "The Pearl of Great Price" wherein they refer to a church members body as a temple that must be respected. Fine, but what about Jesus making more wine at the wedding? Well, they claim it was "New Wine" (grape juice).
I play violin. I've played probably 2,000 weddings over the last 20 years. I have seen them run out of:
Beer
Champagne
Wine
Vodka
Rum
Tequila
Whiskey
Bailey's
Kahlua
Midori
I have literally seen every type of alcohol run out of at least once at one wedding. I have NEVER seen a wedding run out of grape juice. Not once.
The obvious affront to the right to privacy that is in the constitution should be the main issue here, but there are many, many other reasons why Utah sucks, the Mormon religion sucks, and prohibition did not work, and WILL not work.
For the rest of us, we can rest easy knowing that we don't have to live in Utah, and can avoid it altogether, so long as we don't get called again for Warped Tour next year.
I hold very few opinions. I hold information based on observation and fact. If you wish to disagree, please use facts.
This sounds like something out of The Onion.
duh.
but Park City isn't actually in Utah. There are also parts of Salt Lake City and Ogden that aren't part of Utah.
The encoding algorithm for pdf417 barcodes, which are often used on drivers licenses, uses Reed-Solomon error correction. Significant portions of the image can be smudged without loss of information.
I have a Jew growing in my backyard. Water it twice a month. The berries are fair, but the seed is poisonous. The oldest living Jew is over in Scotland where Pontius Pilate was borne.
The way it {loophole} works is if the hair is first douched with some alcohol and then singed with a lit match; it no longer qualifies as the "shaved" part. I have to accept this as fact because I tried a patriot myth that "shaving pussy" was the loophole, but I just couldn't balance the comprehensional modus to differentiate between a loophole of "shaving pussy" to shaved pussy.
Patriot (bowel) movement in-deed. I'll stick' to singed pussy from now on.
To confirm you're not a script,
please type the word in this image: propane
Sperm do not decide anything, never mind that they're going to volunteer for a race up the vaginal canal. That's like saying the Moon decides to orbit the Earth, or that electrons decide to seek positive charge.
Choice - if it exists at all - is very clearly a rare thing in the universe. You may wish to re-examine your argument.
[Ego]out