I don't think that Apple wants to supplant Dell any more than BMW wants to supplant Ford....Can a vendor of software dictate it can only be loaded on the PCs they make...
No, but they can use the DMCA to go after someone who hacks their OS in order to circumvent certain restrictions. Right now, the PPC is open to all, yet nobody has come out with a Mac clone. Most present PV boxes will likely not run the new Longhorn Windows either, at least not without an upgrade. Replacing the MOBO is not an upgrade, but is like buying a new computer in the same old box. With MS, every upgrade of Windows has been more bloated and ran slower than the previous version. With OSX it has been just the opposite; each succeeding version of OSX runs faster on the same old hardware. In the Lexmark case the ROM was not copies as was alleged, but reverse engineered to make a ROM that did the same job, but in a different way. If someone wants to write their own version of OSX, completely from scratch, they'd be safe legally from the copyright angle but would still have to be careful of patents.
As for prices, the $500 they get now for the Mini can certainly be reduced maybe as much as $100 by the use of cheaper Intel chips.
....boot Windows as the host OS on these things....
Who cares whether Windows will boot natively on a Mac or not? All that matters is whether needed, exclusive Windows apps run properly. Most people will run whatever OS comes pre-installed on the computer they buy. Most Windows apps are already on Macs anyway. With the new x86 Macs more Windows apps, especially games will get ported. Those who want to try Mac OSX can buy a Mac Mini today. The coming x86 Mini might be even less expensive.
You are assuming it will be some installer function. I expect that some critical component of OSX will check for the presence of some specific hardware and then abort the boot with a nasty error message: You crum! Tried to install our OSX on your crappy Dell! Forget it. Buy a Mac Mini86for only $399.00
Virtual PC stll being sold by MS runs multiple flavors of Windows in emulation on today's PPC based Macs. Why shouldn't that work even better when emulation is no longer needed?
...This will be resisted at Apple but pretty hard to prevent...
There is a lot more to a computer than just the CPU. If Apple charges competitive prices, like they do for their Mini, there will not be much economic incentive to go to great lengths to run OSX on existing hardware. Also, Apple has some rather mean legal dogs that would likely bite anyone who tries to circumvent their restrictions for money.
...What would stop MS from getting Windows in a state where it can boot on this hardware?...
What would MS gain by not allowing Windows on the new Mac x86 chipped computers? I do run Virtual PC sold by MS with Windows on my present PPC Mac. It slow because of emulation, but still usable for a few Windows things I need. When the x86 Mac comes out VPC will no longer need to be emulated but run natively.
....Apple cannot stop OS X x86 from landing on commodity boxes....
They won't be able to stop many/. geeks, but that doesn't really matter. A When Joe user gets a cheap Dell, OSX won't install on it. His geek son-inlaw might be able to make it happen after considerable work. However, if that son-inlaw or anyone else would try to come out with a product that would allow Joe user to install OSX all by himself on his Dell, the provider of that tool would soon hear from Apple's lawyers.
A secure malware free computing experience for OSX users. Their security is designed in, but in all versions of Windows it's added on, by endless patches and updates from MS and spending extra money and time for all sorts of anti-virus software. If Windows is run on the new x86 Macs that will not change. It's the software that makes a computer what it is and does, not the hardware. I expect the x86 Macs to be no different than the present PPC ones, except they should be cheaper and faster.
...Yes, but how long until the version of OSX that can be cracked appears?...
It might get cracked for a particular hardware setup, but that still leaves the driver problem. Apple will only supply drivers for their hardware. So if OSX is cracked, the crackers will also have to write/obtain the needed drivers. I think someone really skilled and determined will be able to pull this off for themselves. However, if they try to market it, they'll likely hear from Apple's lawyers.
...that Apple will release OS X for beige boxes within 5 years....
Apple tried clone licensing and killed it rather quickly. Unless Apple changes into a software company like MSFT, they'll do everything in their power to prevent OSX from running on generic no-name x86 boxes. If the new Macs run Windows, MS should not be at all unhappy. Apple will not likely pre-install Windows ever. Why should Apple burden themselves with having to support countless hardware variations and lose money from competition?
If Apple made OSX for the garden variety PC boxes, they'd have all those endless headaches of supporting zillions of different configurations over which they have no control. One of the biggest reasons that Macs are superior to PCs is that the hardware and software are integrated and tested together. They'll do this on their x86 boxes also, but you'll have the option of installing Windows also on their boxes. If the price difference between ordinary Windows only, generic PCs and the new x86 Macs is not too great, those new Macs should be a big seller and there will not be much economic incentive for hackers to make OSX run on generic PC hardware.
...Most would type it in without even pausing to think about what the box really means...
You are probably right that many, if not most would type the password -- if they know it. Here all Macs are set up such that the users DON'T know the admin password. This can be done with Windows also, but it requires LOT extra work by the admin to make sure all the needed normal user programs still work.
On Macs, it is virtually guaranteed that user programs will work once an admin installs them. No permission tweaks need to be done.
Now if (when) a Mac or properly set up Windows user tries to open a "free porn" attachment, a dialog for a password will come up which the user cannot give. End of the road -- no crapware on the machine.
....everyone will be able to run OS X on a PC they bought at Walmart....
You are making two assumptions here. The first is that average Joe will be able or wiling to do what most/. ers can and go to the trouble to do. The second is that there will be support in OSX for all the zillion different hardware configurations that are out in the wild PC world out there. One reason Linux has not caught on as a common desktop OS is that there is a lot of hardware out there that will not work under it. Even today, Apple systems are the closest to a universal computer, able to run almost all software in existence for personal computers. When the switch to x86 is complete, that will be the case even more so. Under VPC I can run DOS, all flavors of Windows and Linux, all SIMULTANEOUSLY today in emulation. On an x86 Mac, processor emulation will not be needed.
I am looking forward to the day when I will be able to go to Fry's or some other computer emporium and buy *any* program, without ever so much looking on the box about some crap about system requirements. Just pop the install disk into the drive and get the whole thing running every time.
Only if there is a real incentive to do such a hack. If Apple prices their x86 Macs reasonably, there will not be much incentive for such hacks other than to show that it can be done. Most buyers will go with the pre-installed OS that comes with the computer, just as they always have. They'll have to scrap much of their Windows software anyway, if Longhorn is to be truly secure. Present Mac OSX programs are much more likely to run on the new x86 Macs than the present Windows software on whatever new PC's will be available when Longhorn finally ships. MS has to choose between security or backwards compatibility and I hope they choose security this time around.
....chose Windows for the games, the greater selection of applications and the so called compatibility...
MS will sell you Virtual PC along with their Windows and you run it on the new x86 Macs without the present PPC emulation speed penalty. The die hard Windows fans can still enjoy the spyware and other crapware if they wish.
...so windows probably won't install out of the box...
Who cares about that? MS will sell you Virtual PC and you'll be able to install any flavor of Windows and all your software that runs under it. This works pretty well now with the PPC which has to emulate the x86 chip. With an x86 Mac emulation will not be needed.
Why bother with dual boot? MS will just sell you Virtual PC to run on the x86 Macs, just as they do now for the PPC Macs. The big difference will be that the present x86 emulation speed penalty will disappear. For good measure you'll also be able to run whatever flavor of LINUX you wish, all of them simultaneously under OSX. For the nostalgic types you'll be able to run DOS even or who knows what other ancient software. I think that the new x86 Macs will fly off the shelves, especially if Apple prices them competitively.
...but can recompile all their software themselves,...
How many Moms and Pops even know what a compiler is, let alone figuring out how to run one. It is because of the mentality of people like you that Linux is getting nowhere in the general market. Users want a computer that "just works" and is the secure out of the box. Apple's OSX is that more than any other and has a big jump on MS in this. Apple will still be able to tightly integrate the software and hardware, no matter what chips run the box. The new x86 Macs ought to be a hackers paradise though in terms of getting almost all existing applications to run on it.
...the Power roadmap from IBM wasn't totally abysmal...
Intel's main business is and has always been electronic chips. For IBM, chip design and manufacture has been and is more of a sideline. They did the research for their chips mostly for their own systems, not for Apple. Apple saw this and now that they have the iPod to keep them alive can afford to switch processors. IBM's heart and soul was never in their microelectronics division. Processors have become powerful enough so that very little programming is still done in the assembly code of any particular CPU. If Moore's law holds, any future CPU's will only be even more powerful. Software is becoming more and more hardware independent. A decent compiler and other tools will make porting well written software quite easy in the future. Most popular software already runs on x86 and PPC hardware.
...but I guarantee there will be a small army of hackers working feverishly...
Only if the new Intel based Macs are significantly more expensive than say a Dell. There is a lot more to a computer than the CPU. How many 5 year old PCs run Windows XP professional? How many PCs will not work at all or not well with MS new promised Windows? How many programs need a patching when MS comes out with a major service pack? Hardware is NOT where computing is at even today and will be increasingly less so. The i86 hardware you are using today will likely not run most software, Windows or Mac, for sale 5 or 6 years from now. We all have to get over our hardware fixations. It's the SOFTWARE that makes a computer a computer. How much better and more stable is Linux even on the current x86 hardware than Windows? If Linux were anywhere as integrated and useable as OSX, Windows would lose big time. Don't forget that MS also makes a lot of money on their applications. They will still write them for the new x86 Macs. If the new Macs run both Windows and its software, as well as OSX programs, Apple will sell a lot of x86 Macs. Windows and its programs run quite well on my current PPC Mac even under emulation. On the coming x86 Macs there will be no need for emulation and I suspect that MS will sell many copies of VPC to run on the new x86 Macs.
...Apple has to convince someone to buy a whole new computer to get the OS....
Since Apple makes their money on hardware, that will still likely be the case. One major reason that the Mac has been and is better than normal PC boxes is that Apple makes the whole computer as a unit and doesn't have to test a million hardware combinations to ensure that their systems and its software work properly and are reliable. How many different drivers for video and sound are there in the Windows world? As long as Apple is a hardware maker they are not primarily competing with Microsoft who is a software producer. Apple is a hardware maker who also happens to make their own software, especially the OS. Regardless of what chips power a computer, it is the software that makes a computer do what it does. Not having to, like MS, write software for all this different hardware or depend on hardware makers to supply drivers is a big plus for Apple. They will not likely give up this advantage; at least not as long as they make a lot of their money on hardware.
If it is only a sticker, you can probably peel it off and put one of those old multicolor Apple stickers in its place. We still have one of them on our big glass sliding door so people don't try to go through without opening it first. If I could still get it off (doubtful), I'd send it to you!:-) !
....Why pay extra for your PC to be able to run MacOS X software?...
Why should Apple, paying the same for parts and having their computers made in Taiwan be more expensive than other similar hardware. Their present mini shows otherwise.
It is not the current x86 hardware that makes PCs a pain, but the sucky, insecure, mal/spyware infested Windows OS and its apps, many of which will only run as an admin user. This is a serious attack on Windows, but MS will still be able to make more money selling its other apps on ALL x86 hardware, whether Macs or Windows. This is a win-win situation for the computer business overall. Remember, a processor is NOT a computer! It's the SOFTWARE that gives a computer its functionality. The hardware is secondary.
...Otherwise they will become another PC manufacturer whith pretty cases.....
That depends on whether OSX (the x86 version) or the non-Apple hardware can easily be hacked. If Apple includes a special patented BIOS, then making Mac x86 clones will not be so easy and certainly the existing x86 boxes will still be running Windows or in some cases Linux.
...There isn't a viable benefit to the customers...
Actuall I think that it will be a huge benefit since there will be many more programs available for the Mac. The old so often repeated saw about Macs having limited software, will go away. OSX will be cross platform. Most Mac programs are being written for the x86 chips already anyway and they just get recompiled. The hardware in a particular box will be increasingly unimportant in the future. It is the miserable, insecure Windows OS that allows the installation of thousands of malware programs that is the bane of the average x86 box user. Linux is much safer on these same x86 boxes and Mac OSX will be safer yet.
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...dreams of Apple supplanting Dell ...
...Can a vendor of software dictate it can only be loaded on the PCs they make...
I don't think that Apple wants to supplant Dell any more than BMW wants to supplant Ford.
No, but they can use the DMCA to go after someone who hacks their OS in order to circumvent certain restrictions. Right now, the PPC is open to all, yet nobody has come out with a Mac clone. Most present PV boxes will likely not run the new Longhorn Windows either, at least not without an upgrade. Replacing the MOBO is not an upgrade, but is like buying a new computer in the same old box. With MS, every upgrade of Windows has been more bloated and ran slower than the previous version. With OSX it has been just the opposite; each succeeding version of OSX runs faster on the same old hardware. In the Lexmark case the ROM was not copies as was alleged, but reverse engineered to make a ROM that did the same job, but in a different way. If someone wants to write their own version of OSX, completely from scratch, they'd be safe legally from the copyright angle but would still have to be careful of patents.
As for prices, the $500 they get now for the Mini can certainly be reduced maybe as much as $100 by the use of cheaper Intel chips.
....boot Windows as the host OS on these things....
Who cares whether Windows will boot natively on a Mac or not? All that matters is whether needed, exclusive Windows apps run properly. Most people will run whatever OS comes pre-installed on the computer they buy. Most Windows apps are already on Macs anyway. With the new x86 Macs more Windows apps, especially games will get ported. Those who want to try Mac OSX can buy a Mac Mini today. The coming x86 Mini might be even less expensive.
...said easy installer...
You are assuming it will be some installer function. I expect that some critical component of OSX will check for the presence of some specific hardware and then abort the boot with a nasty error message: You crum! Tried to install our OSX on your crappy Dell! Forget it. Buy a Mac Mini86for only $399.00
Virtual PC stll being sold by MS runs multiple flavors of Windows in emulation on today's PPC based Macs. Why shouldn't that work even better when emulation is no longer needed?
...This will be resisted at Apple but pretty hard to prevent...
There is a lot more to a computer than just the CPU. If Apple charges competitive prices, like they do for their Mini, there will not be much economic incentive to go to great lengths to run OSX on existing hardware. Also, Apple has some rather mean legal dogs that would likely bite anyone who tries to circumvent their restrictions for money.
...What would stop MS from getting Windows in a state where it can boot on this hardware?...
What would MS gain by not allowing Windows on the new Mac x86 chipped computers? I do run Virtual PC sold by MS with Windows on my present PPC Mac. It slow because of emulation, but still usable for a few Windows things I need. When the x86 Mac comes out VPC will no longer need to be emulated but run natively.
....Apple cannot stop OS X x86 from landing on commodity boxes....
/. geeks, but that doesn't really matter. A When Joe user gets a cheap Dell, OSX won't install on it. His geek son-inlaw might be able to make it happen after considerable work. However, if that son-inlaw or anyone else would try to come out with a product that would allow Joe user to install OSX all by himself on his Dell, the provider of that tool would soon hear from Apple's lawyers.
They won't be able to stop many
...What edge do Apple have other than OS X...
A secure malware free computing experience for OSX users. Their security is designed in, but in all versions of Windows it's added on, by endless patches and updates from MS and spending extra money and time for all sorts of anti-virus software. If Windows is run on the new x86 Macs that will not change. It's the software that makes a computer what it is and does, not the hardware. I expect the x86 Macs to be no different than the present PPC ones, except they should be cheaper and faster.
...Yes, but how long until the version of OSX that can be cracked appears?...
It might get cracked for a particular hardware setup, but that still leaves the driver problem. Apple will only supply drivers for their hardware. So if OSX is cracked, the crackers will also have to write/obtain the needed drivers. I think someone really skilled and determined will be able to pull this off for themselves. However, if they try to market it, they'll likely hear from Apple's lawyers.
...that Apple will release OS X for beige boxes within 5 years....
Apple tried clone licensing and killed it rather quickly. Unless Apple changes into a software company like MSFT, they'll do everything in their power to prevent OSX from running on generic no-name x86 boxes. If the new Macs run Windows, MS should not be at all unhappy. Apple will not likely pre-install Windows ever. Why should Apple burden themselves with having to support countless hardware variations and lose money from competition?
If Apple made OSX for the garden variety PC boxes, they'd have all those endless headaches of supporting zillions of different configurations over which they have no control. One of the biggest reasons that Macs are superior to PCs is that the hardware and software are integrated and tested together. They'll do this on their x86 boxes also, but you'll have the option of installing Windows also on their boxes. If the price difference between ordinary Windows only, generic PCs and the new x86 Macs is not too great, those new Macs should be a big seller and there will not be much economic incentive for hackers to make OSX run on generic PC hardware.
...Most would type it in without even pausing to think about what the box really means...
You are probably right that many, if not most would type the password -- if they know it. Here all Macs are set up such that the users DON'T know the admin password. This can be done with Windows also, but it requires LOT extra work by the admin to make sure all the needed normal user programs still work.
On Macs, it is virtually guaranteed that user programs will work once an admin installs them. No permission tweaks need to be done.
Now if (when) a Mac or properly set up Windows user tries to open a "free porn" attachment, a dialog for a password will come up which the user cannot give. End of the road -- no crapware on the machine.
....everyone will be able to run OS X on a PC they bought at Walmart....
/. ers can and go to the trouble to do. The second is that there will be support in OSX for all the zillion different hardware configurations that are out in the wild PC world out there. One reason Linux has not caught on as a common desktop OS is that there is a lot of hardware out there that will not work under it. Even today, Apple systems are the closest to a universal computer, able to run almost all software in existence for personal computers. When the switch to x86 is complete, that will be the case even more so. Under VPC I can run DOS, all flavors of Windows and Linux, all SIMULTANEOUSLY today in emulation. On an x86 Mac, processor emulation will not be needed.
You are making two assumptions here. The first is that average Joe will be able or wiling to do what most
I am looking forward to the day when I will be able to go to Fry's or some other computer emporium and buy *any* program, without ever so much looking on the box about some crap about system requirements. Just pop the install disk into the drive and get the whole thing running every time.
....OSX will be running on commodity PCs....
Only if there is a real incentive to do such a hack. If Apple prices their x86 Macs reasonably, there will not be much incentive for such hacks other than to show that it can be done. Most buyers will go with the pre-installed OS that comes with the computer, just as they always have. They'll have to scrap much of their Windows software anyway, if Longhorn is to be truly secure. Present Mac OSX programs are much more likely to run on the new x86 Macs than the present Windows software on whatever new PC's will be available when Longhorn finally ships. MS has to choose between security or backwards compatibility and I hope they choose security this time around.
....chose Windows for the games, the greater selection of applications and the so called compatibility...
MS will sell you Virtual PC along with their Windows and you run it on the new x86 Macs without the present PPC emulation speed penalty. The die hard Windows fans can still enjoy the spyware and other crapware if they wish.
...so windows probably won't install out of the box...
Who cares about that? MS will sell you Virtual PC and you'll be able to install any flavor of Windows and all your software that runs under it. This works pretty well now with the PPC which has to emulate the x86 chip. With an x86 Mac emulation will not be needed.
...I'd love to be able to dual boot ....
Why bother with dual boot? MS will just sell you Virtual PC to run on the x86 Macs, just as they do now for the PPC Macs. The big difference will be that the present x86 emulation speed penalty will disappear. For good measure you'll also be able to run whatever flavor of LINUX you wish, all of them simultaneously under OSX. For the nostalgic types you'll be able to run DOS even or who knows what other ancient software. I think that the new x86 Macs will fly off the shelves, especially if Apple prices them competitively.
...but can recompile all their software themselves,...
How many Moms and Pops even know what a compiler is, let alone figuring out how to run one. It is because of the mentality of people like you that Linux is getting nowhere in the general market. Users want a computer that "just works" and is the secure out of the box. Apple's OSX is that more than any other and has a big jump on MS in this. Apple will still be able to tightly integrate the software and hardware, no matter what chips run the box. The new x86 Macs ought to be a hackers paradise though in terms of getting almost all existing applications to run on it.
...the Power roadmap from IBM wasn't totally abysmal...
Intel's main business is and has always been electronic chips. For IBM, chip design and manufacture has been and is more of a sideline. They did the research for their chips mostly for their own systems, not for Apple. Apple saw this and now that they have the iPod to keep them alive can afford to switch processors. IBM's heart and soul was never in their microelectronics division. Processors have become powerful enough so that very little programming is still done in the assembly code of any particular CPU. If Moore's law holds, any future CPU's will only be even more powerful. Software is becoming more and more hardware independent. A decent compiler and other tools will make porting well written software quite easy in the future. Most popular software already runs on x86 and PPC hardware.
...but I guarantee there will be a small army of hackers working feverishly...
Only if the new Intel based Macs are significantly more expensive than say a Dell. There is a lot more to a computer than the CPU. How many 5 year old PCs run Windows XP professional? How many PCs will not work at all or not well with MS new promised Windows? How many programs need a patching when MS comes out with a major service pack? Hardware is NOT where computing is at even today and will be increasingly less so. The i86 hardware you are using today will likely not run most software, Windows or Mac, for sale 5 or 6 years from now. We all have to get over our hardware fixations. It's the SOFTWARE that makes a computer a computer. How much better and more stable is Linux even on the current x86 hardware than Windows? If Linux were anywhere as integrated and useable as OSX, Windows would lose big time. Don't forget that MS also makes a lot of money on their applications. They will still write them for the new x86 Macs. If the new Macs run both Windows and its software, as well as OSX programs, Apple will sell a lot of x86 Macs. Windows and its programs run quite well on my current PPC Mac even under emulation. On the coming x86 Macs there will be no need for emulation and I suspect that MS will sell many copies of VPC to run on the new x86 Macs.
...Apple has to convince someone to buy a whole new computer to get the OS....
Since Apple makes their money on hardware, that will still likely be the case. One major reason that the Mac has been and is better than normal PC boxes is that Apple makes the whole computer as a unit and doesn't have to test a million hardware combinations to ensure that their systems and its software work properly and are reliable. How many different drivers for video and sound are there in the Windows world? As long as Apple is a hardware maker they are not primarily competing with Microsoft who is a software producer. Apple is a hardware maker who also happens to make their own software, especially the OS. Regardless of what chips power a computer, it is the software that makes a computer do what it does. Not having to, like MS, write software for all this different hardware or depend on hardware makers to supply drivers is a big plus for Apple. They will not likely give up this advantage; at least not as long as they make a lot of their money on hardware.
...hideous "Intel Inside" sticker...
:-) !
If it is only a sticker, you can probably peel it off and put one of those old multicolor Apple stickers in its place. We still have one of them on our big glass sliding door so people don't try to go through without opening it first. If I could still get it off (doubtful), I'd send it to you!
....Why pay extra for your PC to be able to run MacOS X software?...
Why should Apple, paying the same for parts and having their computers made in Taiwan be more expensive than other similar hardware. Their present mini shows otherwise.
It is not the current x86 hardware that makes PCs a pain, but the sucky, insecure, mal/spyware infested Windows OS and its apps, many of which will only run as an admin user. This is a serious attack on Windows, but MS will still be able to make more money selling its other apps on ALL x86 hardware, whether Macs or Windows. This is a win-win situation for the computer business overall. Remember, a processor is NOT a computer! It's the SOFTWARE that gives a computer its functionality. The hardware is secondary.
...Otherwise they will become another PC manufacturer whith pretty cases.....
That depends on whether OSX (the x86 version) or the non-Apple hardware can easily be hacked. If Apple includes a special patented BIOS, then making Mac x86 clones will not be so easy and certainly the existing x86 boxes will still be running Windows or in some cases Linux.
...There isn't a viable benefit to the customers...
Actuall I think that it will be a huge benefit since there will be many more programs available for the Mac. The old so often repeated saw about Macs having limited software, will go away. OSX will be cross platform. Most Mac programs are being written for the x86 chips already anyway and they just get recompiled. The hardware in a particular box will be increasingly unimportant in the future. It is the miserable, insecure Windows OS that allows the installation of thousands of malware programs that is the bane of the average x86 box user. Linux is much safer on these same x86 boxes and Mac OSX will be safer yet.