One dollar scam or a million dollar scam, it doesnt matter, it is still a scam. I can only conclude that you are some sort of a thief engaged in stealing small amounts from other people and are therefore so desperate to try to defend this scheme to make your own activities appear harmless.
What I do with my money is my business, and what a business does with thier money is thier own.
How its a scam I guess I'll never understand, but go ahead and live in your little fantasy world were somehow they've screwed you buy offering a lower price for being patient.
What other funds they kept at the bank is their business and totally irrelevant. I am only concerned about my $50 that is sitting in their bank account for 8-12 weeks.
Your other option is just to buy the item and not send in the form. Then you can't claim they have any of 'your money.' The rebate says it will take them some time to process and I'm sorry that you need everything right now. But the bottom line is if you don't like it, don't fill out the form.
I just think its foolish not to take advantage of savings, even if it means you have to wait a few weeks.
No, the price/"rebate" advertising states in bold letters that the price of the item is say $100 "after mail-in $50 rebate". Which is a lie because when you do pay, you will pay taxes on $150 and receive $50 back which in effect refunds you less then $50 off the price of the item, i.e. advertised price is innacurate. The true price of the item was $107 (assuming 14% tax, a $7 on $50). The advertised, in bold letters, price was $100. You pay taxes on $150 ergo the real price was $107 before taxes. While one probably can find some sort of disclaimer in fine print on some of the ads, most of them I looked at simply say "Pay $100! *after $50 mail-in rebate" which is simply false. Noone is expecting not to pay tax, but the advertising creates an impression that the $50 is applied to the price of the item before taxes.
This same situation occurs in regular sales. They don't include the taxes either. In all cases you are expected to pay sales tax, and neither manf. or vendor will speak of it (as its assumed, and various greatly region to region).
You must be working for one of these vendors. Noone else would be so pighedeadly blind. Let me spell it out for you: the $7.5 million is the money that the vendor does not have to pay because he is lying about the amount of the refund. If his advertised ("after rebate") price was truly $100, the after-tax refund should have been $57. The consumer here loses by paing more tax then he would if the price was simply $100 as he was lead to believe. The governemt gets more tax then they deserve on this sale and the reason for it is the convoluted "rebate" scheme instigated by the vendor for his benefit.
Listen dumbass, the money for taxes goes to the state. When they must collect is clearly spelt out; AT THE TIME OF SALE. The amount is also; A PERCENTAGE OF THE SALE PRICE. Whether or not you send the rebate in the tax is correct. At the time you bought the item, the price was x, and you paid a percentage. It does not matter that in the future you will get y back from the manufacturer.
And get a clue dumbass...the vendor (or merchant) didn't come up with the rebate scheme, manufacturers did. Excluding BB rebates (which ARE done by the vendor, and a are only a small portion of all rebates) the vendor does nothing different than if there was no rebate offer.
You seem not to comprehend the simple fact that I will simply purchase the same item for $50 with no hassle, no mail and no imbecillic rebate schemes at some other vendor who operates by the old-fashioned rules of the market, one who will not try to get me to do work for him in hopes of getting lucky and increasing the price after the sale. Some for example do an "instant rebate" which enables them to defeat the vendor's scheme for the benefit of the consumer, by simply applying the rebate value to the price and filling all the bullshit paperwork for you (with the name of the store on the forms instead of yours). But go ahead and get busy filling out these rebate forms, if you do enough of them they might hire you to run around BestBuy dressed up as the "Rebate Boy".
You seem to fail to understand that if there's a rebate involved, I will ALWAYS pay less than your lowest price, becuase I can buy at that low price as well, in addition to getting the rebate.
I've sent in at most 2 BB rebates ever, all the other dozens i've done have been manufacturer, and I've never had a problem.
If a store wants to take the rebate for me and reduce the price fine with me, but taking 2 seconds to fill out a simple form is well worth $50 to me.
With your convoluted logic, I can only assume that you're still living with your mom and working at a grocery store. So believe whatever you like, as long as it helps you cope with the fact that you have such low intelligence you can't fill out your name and address.
This thread is about MIRs. However, I'd still like to refute your silly scenarios.
"Yes, you can afford the car that is $10,000 outside your price range."
You as a consumer should know what you can afford and whatyou can't. Are you honestly telling me you go shopping for a car you don't have some idea if you can afford the monthly payment or not? The buyer is responsible for figuring out how to pay for things. If i get a credit card and run it up without thinking about how to pay it down, wouldn't that be my fault?
"Wow, you look good in that car, you'll get all the chicks."
Surely you know that he can't possibly promise that. Any reasonable person wouldn't put any value in such a statement.
"This car's safety is so good that you can drive like the moron you are, and your children will be protected."
Again, any reasonable person will know this is not true. If someone takes as more than 'this car is exceptionally safe' they are being foolish.
An "exaggeration" is a falshood told by the salesman to sell the car.
And all of said 'falsehoods' above are immediately apparent to an average person. Exaggeration is done to make a point; lying is done to deceive.
When the salesman is lying like that, should the customer still hold 100% of the responsibility to determine which statements are lies? Or are is the customer being preyed upon by slimy salesmen?
I think I countered each of those already, and yes, all of those statements fall to the customer to determine (which, by they way, they should be easily capable of figuring out. If not..well, they must be incredibly naive and stupid).
They were also professions largely consisting of two classes of people: the idle rich and the dedicated artist who was willing to live in poverty. Copyright law has made it possible for normal people to at least make some money off of their creative works.... Go ahead, get rid of copyright law and you'll not just get rid of Brittney Spears, but also probably every band you like. Without copyright law, people would have no incentive at all to write music since anyone could play it without paying them.
Um, which is it? They'd be artists that are idle rich or willing poor, or people wouldn't create anything at all with a monetary incentive?
Actually you may need to prove that you DO own the CD. I know this flys in the face of innocent until proven guilty...but thats what's likely to happen.
Indeed. Its just like the idea that its ok to restrict speech that might cause 'clear and present danger.'
No where is it written that the 1st amendment excludes that kind of speech. Instead, it was decided by a court case, which later court cases referenced. Although there is no law stating such (if there is, i'd like to see the relevent Code identifiers) it is commonly taken as 'law.' Basically it means that the courts have created a law..not Congress. This is clearly outside the scope of the court's power.
2: punishment: making sure people are sufficantly afraid of going to prison that they think twice before doing the crime in the first place.
The deterant arguement...I've never found it to hold up. Only unstable people commit crimes knowing they will be caught. The vast majority of criminals don't care about the punishment because they honestly do not believe they will be caught. Therefore harsh punishments do not create a deterant, and thus has no impact on crime rates (notice the non-effect raising punishments for drug related crimes).
But you'd never earn 1.5 mil on that dollar..the most YOU could get is that one dollar.
You also fail to realize that the manufacturers get paid when they ship to the merchants. So the manufacturer has probably been letting the $40 they made selling to the merchant sit in the bank and using the intrest to pay for the rebates.
.No, the manufacturers fault is advertising a $50 rebate on his product, a statement which is false.
Um, sorry its not false. You do in fact receive a check for $50. The manufacturer doesn't set sales tax, governments do. Tax is ALWAYS the responsibility of the consumer. You know that your 9.99 item will cost more because of tax. You should know that since sales tax must be paid on the SALE price that it won't be discounted because the rebate occurs after the fact.
Since the rebate is performed after taxes, the doubling of the tax occurs on the rebate portion itself, i.e. you are being refunded less then $50 promised in the price of the item.
The rebate says I get $50 back, and I get $50 back. Sales tax has noting to do with the manufacturer or merchant. ITS ALWAYS THE CONSUMERS RESPONSIBILITY. Unless you're a total moron going to the register (which i'm starting to supsect you are), you KNOW that tax will be charged on the full price, becauseyou're paying full price at the time of sale. Thats how the law works.
Yes I am because allowing a small thief to get away with something, quickly prompts a larger thief to attempt the same on a larger scale. In the case of the mail "rebate", the vendor is successfully lying about the value of his "discount" to the tune of tens of millions of dollars since a $7.50 times a million units sold is $7.5 million.
That $7.5 million goes right to the state, because they're the ones leving the tax. So if you want to call them a thief fine, but they are the ones forcing the 10.99 item to 12.53. and as a consumer you KNOW there is a sales tax.
One of us allows himself to be fleeced by an assorted crowd of thieves and crooks on what appears a regular basis and, what is more amazing, actively encourages such practice. The other does not. I leave it as a exercise to the reader as to which one of us is an "idiot".
Ha, ok. If my $100 purchase now becomes $50 + sales tax, then fine feel free to think I'm the idiot. However I'm not the one claiming double taxation and calling people thiefs for giving me money back. So go ahead pay full price ($106 after tax), and i'll gladly pay only $56 (after tax) for the same thing because I can properly enter my name and address on a form and drop it in the mail.
Yes, I thought of this...but if I was a merchant, I'd tell the manufacturer to piss off. My position would be 'Why does the manufacturer get to dictate my profit margin? I know I could charge customers more, and they'd be willing to pay, so why should someone else tell me I can't.'
Now I realize that there are a few products that people want a very specific brand for...but most products are not in that position.
For example, do you think anyone avoids a restraunt because they choose to serve Pepsi over Coke?
Do you think it matters which 100Mbit network card I buy? One might even considering buying the equivolent ATI card if its cheaper (due to rebate or sale price) than Nvidia.
I think there are very few manufacturers in a position to dictate to the merchants.
I never said business where saints, just that I don't believe there's a problem with MIRs.
I think is that a minority is complaining so thats why it seems like there's a problem.
Let's also not forget that some (most?) in that minorty may not have followed the instructions..so that would indicate even lessof a problem.
I don't think ther'es a really good way to force merchants to offer a sale...why would they? It may be individual stores that don't offer them too...is the manufacturer supposed to check ALL of thier merchants? Seems unreasonable to me.
No there is not; justice is a purely human invention, which is a combination of fairness and forgiveness.
Our corrections system (going to assume you're in the US too) is horriblly flawed. I think people would like prison to be a black hole that 'criminals' vanish into, until of course its thier kid.
Personally, rehabilitation should be the first priority, but in cases where that's not possible, then it should be to keep offenders from threatening others again.
Bullshit. Merchants ADVERTISE the rebates like dangling bait. In fact, most merchants advertise the REBATED price instead of the actual "you are paying this at the register" price.
I'm sure they don't mind advertising; it brings people into thier store, but the fact is that it costs the merchant nothing (they still make thier full profit margin).
It is mostly an advertising scam. If you fail to see that you are blind.
Funny, because I've gotten all the rebates I've sent in. If its a scam, its not a very good one.
And since they are the ones determining legibility, you have no say in the matter. And while we are at it, xerox copies aren't accepted, for obvious reasons, so how does one resubmit when they don't send back ALL the original documents (including the ORIGINAL reciept and UPC labels)?
Again its funny that all of my friends and family get thier rebates just fine. Maybe you just write like a 2yr old? I've never had to resubmit, but I bet a call to them and they will explain how to resubmit. If they didn't, they'd quickly be fined.
It is more productive if the manufacturer's rebate is between the murchant and the manufacturer instead of the customer and manufacturer. This is called an "instant rebate" and the customer is out of the picture as soon as they leave the store.
Nothing stops the retails and manufactures from doing this, of course there's nothing to garentee the merchant will pass on the savings (in fact, there's much insentive not to).
It is an advertising scam in that you will see in large red letters "$PRICE*" and following the usual look at the bottom of the page in the smallest print known to man is *$PRICE after $X rebate". That is a scam when you boldly display one price and charge at the register another.
Ahh, a nice claim, do you have an proof, a photo perhaps of the unusually small letters? Do you need a magnifying glass to read them? Or perhaps just glasses...because the ones I've seen that do change the tag, its pretty clearly labeled that its after rebate. Oh, and if you would rather not buy the product because the lower price is after rebate, feel free to leave it at the register (where they will explain to you what you missed in the aisle).
"Most rebate forms" say nothing of the sort. It is a trade off for the rebate that you will get put on a spam list. It is silly to not expect them to use it for marketing both mail and the selling of the data collected. They are a business after all and if that data becomes more valuable than it costs to produce bet your ass they will sell it.
All the ones I've filled out recently have. Not to meantion that i never saw an increase in postal spam after filling out rebates. Most spam i get is 'resident' and places i've actually ordered from (ie they send me a catalog).
Does the tin foil hat chaff your head from wearing it 24/7?
Believe me, business does ALOT of scummy things, but MIRs don't seem to be one of them.
I don't feel like dismissing the $4 just because it's small. It's still a hidden cost and I don't like it.
Its not hidden; its easily calculated, even by an 8th grader. That one doesn't take the time to consider it is thier own fault.
And it could be worth a lot more to you. If you have a credit card balance @ %18 you could put $50 on that and save $3 over 4 months. Now the extra cost on your $50 hard disk is $6.50. You're paying over %10 more than if they'd just sell it for $50 in-store. For irony's sake imagine it was a Best Buy credit card you have the balance on. Then you're actually paying them $3 for the privilage of holding your $50.
Well you could save alot more of 4 months by not buying anything at all and payin off your card. Thats irrelevent. You could just as easily take your rebate check and apply it to you card as well. Don't try to confuse the issue by bringing in irrelevent debt.
The point is the great prices listed with MIRs are lower than the real cost.
The price listed is already lower then the real cost, because tax is not included in that cost. Whats your point here?
Yup. Like in car sales. The buyers often feel bad the next day.
Its not like in car sales. In rebates, you're usually spending at most a few hundred dollars. With a car thats easliy 15,000.
Because they feel they were pressured into something they didn't really want/couldn't afford. The salesmen know the tricks to get people to buy things they wouldn't have bought otherwise and purposefully act in a manner contrary to the best interests of the consumer.
Give me a fucking break. I'm sorry that people are so weak willed that someone can be 'pressured' into buy a car. No one forced a gun to thier head. I deal with high pressure salesmen by leaving, as I don't want to put up with thier shit. But no amount of thier talking will make me buy a car on the spot. Sorry, if people really have that much of a problem with being pressured, then ya, its thier fault...they need some backbone.
Are you saying that a salesman that knowingly acts in a manner contrary to the best interests of the customer is blameless when the customer is coerced into the action that harms them?
Yes, it is the customers fault. Grow a backbone already. As long as the salesman is truthful (and yes, the rebate forms ARE truthful) then there is no one to blame but the customer.
People need to learn self control, they have only themselves to blame if they are so easily maniupulated.
In places with high sales tax (say Canada at 14%) a $50 "rebate" comes out to $42.50 due to the fact that it comes after taxes i.e. double taxation.
Of course thats the manufacturers fault, a high sales tax. I'm sure its 14% as a direct result of offering rebates huh?
Double taxation? Huh? You paid the sales tax at purchase and then you paid tax...oh wait, you didn't pay tax again. So thats a total of one time that you paid taxes, so you can't claim double taxation.
The fact is that sales tax is between you and the government. They dictate when it has to be collected and how much..dont' like it they get it lowered. Are you also upset that when you buy something its not really 10.99, its 12.53 instead? False advertising!! OMG!!
Mail in rebates are also a financial scam, since the vendor/manufacturer gets to hold on to your money for 8-12 weeks, earning iterest on it and using it for operational purposes.
Ohhh....$50 * 1.02 = 51. A whole dollar per month? Yea, those evil bastards.
Surely you meant: Mail-in rebates are for stupid or illiterate consumers.
No, thats not what I meant at all. Nice try though.
Let me enumerate the fetures of a mail-in rebate as compared to an actual, old-fashioned, "primitive", you know, cash discount:
Lets understand that, you know, rebates have traditionally been a way for the manufactures to lower thier price, when a merchant doesn't want to have a sale. Lower prices spur buying, and rebates are a way to lower prices (as they can't force merchants to do).
Mail in rebates make the consumer perform the paperwork and legwork instad of the vendor
Oh my god, you mean that, *gasp* the customer has to prove they bought the product for which the rebate is being offered, and during the time frame its being offered? You're right, thats asking alot.
Mail in rebates are designed to create an apperance of a lower price while not offerring one unconditionally, i.e. they are a form of a scam
No, they are designed with the understanding that you pay full price, and the manufacturer will send you a check for the rebate amount, thus lowering you end price. I fail to see how saying 'buy this, and i'll send you a check for $10' is a scam. The fact is that it is unconditional.
Mail in rebates are designed to offer the manufacturer wiggle room in not paying them, i.e. claims of "illegible writing" or "water damaged envelopes" or "we never got that mail" etc are possible.
Um, what exactly do you expect if your entry is illegible? How can they possibly send it out? They could guess at your name or address...but would that get it to you for sure? Mail can be damaged by water, and things do get lost in the mail. But its not only rebates that get hit.
Mail in rebates are designed to be an annoyance and hassle in order to deter consumers from actually claiming them
Yes, its a real hassel to fill out your name and address, and prove that you a) bought the proper item (by providing a upc) and b) buying it within the specified time period (by providing a copy of your reciept). It can't be much less info then that, or do you think companies should just take your word for it?
Literate and wise consumers recognize this for what it is, i.e. a form of a "bait and switch" scam by the vendor and manufacturer and do complain to Better Business Bureau or law officials.
Actually literate and wise consumers can properly fill out a form and put it in an envelope.
Congratulations, the vendor has trained you to be a circus monkey for them: "Plague, cut the barcode, fill the form with all your personal data for sale to direct mailers, pay for postage, run to the post office, go to the bank depositing the cheque! Good monkey!"
You're a fuckwit. I could easily call you a trained monkey for using a bank over a credit union (they trained you to give them all your info, then turn around and sell it).
Guess what, most rebate forms state they WON'T sell your data...and I didn't realize that name and address was ALL of my personal data. You're right though, I should expect them to magically teleport the check directly into my hand, without them even know who sent in the form!
You're got some unrealistic expectations. Go join a church, they believe alot of non-sense too. You'll fit right in.
The truth is that I have not personally met ANYONE that has had problems with rebates.
If you think that the only things that get lost in the mail are rebate forms, you sourly mistaken. I've had bills, letters and even a package that took over three months to finally be delivered.
I actually got a rebate check the other day..after someone else had seemed to have opened it. but I still got the check.
You're not required to feel sorry for him, but if you should be on a jury in such a situtation, justice requires that you ignore what he did (since said criminal either has paid or is paying for his crime).
#1 Sales tax gets charged on the pre-rebated price. It's probably not a big deal in the states where sales taxes are usually lower. Where I live (Ontario if you must) sales tax is %15. From your example this gets charged on the $99. $7.50 more than if it were charged on the $49.99.
Well, most places in the US don't have 15%, they have less then half that rate. Which is less then $3.50.
The lost intrest is $0.50. Are you really that worried about $0.50? You'd need 10 rebates to lose $5.
In total, you 'lost' $4.00. Is it really that big a deal that your $50 rebate is more like $46? Especially considering that you know this in advance?
I tihnk you need to worry about something more than the occasional $4.00 loss on you rebate.
Sure, it's the customer's fault for not doing their part, but it's the reseller's fault for exploiting the behaviour.
You clearly admit its the customers fault, yet you blame the offerer anyway?
Both me and my business partner are Christians
I see, you have thrown out anything logical, and just make things up or believe a book that was never proven to be the word of god. so tell me, which version of the bible do you believe and why do you believe it, knowing that MAN has altered it for our own purposes in the past?
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One dollar scam or a million dollar scam, it doesnt matter, it is still a scam. I can only conclude that you are some sort of a thief engaged in stealing small amounts from other people and are therefore so desperate to try to defend this scheme to make your own activities appear harmless.
What I do with my money is my business, and what a business does with thier money is thier own.
How its a scam I guess I'll never understand, but go ahead and live in your little fantasy world were somehow they've screwed you buy offering a lower price for being patient.
What other funds they kept at the bank is their business and totally irrelevant. I am only concerned about my $50 that is sitting in their bank account for 8-12 weeks.
Your other option is just to buy the item and not send in the form. Then you can't claim they have any of 'your money.' The rebate says it will take them some time to process and I'm sorry that you need everything right now. But the bottom line is if you don't like it, don't fill out the form.
I just think its foolish not to take advantage of savings, even if it means you have to wait a few weeks.
No, the price/"rebate" advertising states in bold letters that the price of the item is say $100 "after mail-in $50 rebate". Which is a lie because when you do pay, you will pay taxes on $150 and receive $50 back which in effect refunds you less then $50 off the price of the item, i.e. advertised price is innacurate. The true price of the item was $107 (assuming 14% tax, a $7 on $50). The advertised, in bold letters, price was $100. You pay taxes on $150 ergo the real price was $107 before taxes. While one probably can find some sort of disclaimer in fine print on some of the ads, most of them I looked at simply say "Pay $100! *after $50 mail-in rebate" which is simply false. Noone is expecting not to pay tax, but the advertising creates an impression that the $50 is applied to the price of the item before taxes.
This same situation occurs in regular sales. They don't include the taxes either. In all cases you are expected to pay sales tax, and neither manf. or vendor will speak of it (as its assumed, and various greatly region to region).
You must be working for one of these vendors. Noone else would be so pighedeadly blind. Let me spell it out for you: the $7.5 million is the money that the vendor does not have to pay because he is lying about the amount of the refund. If his advertised ("after rebate") price was truly $100, the after-tax refund should have been $57. The consumer here loses by paing more tax then he would if the price was simply $100 as he was lead to believe. The governemt gets more tax then they deserve on this sale and the reason for it is the convoluted "rebate" scheme instigated by the vendor for his benefit.
Listen dumbass, the money for taxes goes to the state. When they must collect is clearly spelt out; AT THE TIME OF SALE. The amount is also; A PERCENTAGE OF THE SALE PRICE. Whether or not you send the rebate in the tax is correct. At the time you bought the item, the price was x, and you paid a percentage. It does not matter that in the future you will get y back from the manufacturer.
And get a clue dumbass...the vendor (or merchant) didn't come up with the rebate scheme, manufacturers did. Excluding BB rebates (which ARE done by the vendor, and a are only a small portion of all rebates) the vendor does nothing different than if there was no rebate offer.
You seem not to comprehend the simple fact that I will simply purchase the same item for $50 with no hassle, no mail and no imbecillic rebate schemes at some other vendor who operates by the old-fashioned rules of the market, one who will not try to get me to do work for him in hopes of getting lucky and increasing the price after the sale. Some for example do an "instant rebate" which enables them to defeat the vendor's scheme for the benefit of the consumer, by simply applying the rebate value to the price and filling all the bullshit paperwork for you (with the name of the store on the forms instead of yours). But go ahead and get busy filling out these rebate forms, if you do enough of them they might hire you to run around BestBuy dressed up as the "Rebate Boy".
You seem to fail to understand that if there's a rebate involved, I will ALWAYS pay less than your lowest price, becuase I can buy at that low price as well, in addition to getting the rebate.
I've sent in at most 2 BB rebates ever, all the other dozens i've done have been manufacturer, and I've never had a problem.
If a store wants to take the rebate for me and reduce the price fine with me, but taking 2 seconds to fill out a simple form is well worth $50 to me.
With your convoluted logic, I can only assume that you're still living with your mom and working at a grocery store. So believe whatever you like, as long as it helps you cope with the fact that you have such low intelligence you can't fill out your name and address.
But what about buying a car?
This thread is about MIRs. However, I'd still like to refute your silly scenarios.
"Yes, you can afford the car that is $10,000 outside your price range."
You as a consumer should know what you can afford and whatyou can't. Are you honestly telling me you go shopping for a car you don't have some idea if you can afford the monthly payment or not? The buyer is responsible for figuring out how to pay for things. If i get a credit card and run it up without thinking about how to pay it down, wouldn't that be my fault?
"Wow, you look good in that car, you'll get all the chicks."
Surely you know that he can't possibly promise that. Any reasonable person wouldn't put any value in such a statement.
"This car's safety is so good that you can drive like the moron you are, and your children will be protected."
Again, any reasonable person will know this is not true. If someone takes as more than 'this car is exceptionally safe' they are being foolish.
An "exaggeration" is a falshood told by the salesman to sell the car.
And all of said 'falsehoods' above are immediately apparent to an average person. Exaggeration is done to make a point; lying is done to deceive.
When the salesman is lying like that, should the customer still hold 100% of the responsibility to determine which statements are lies? Or are is the customer being preyed upon by slimy salesmen?
I think I countered each of those already, and yes, all of those statements fall to the customer to determine (which, by they way, they should be easily capable of figuring out. If not..well, they must be incredibly naive and stupid).
They were also professions largely consisting of two classes of people: the idle rich and the dedicated artist who was willing to live in poverty. Copyright law has made it possible for normal people to at least make some money off of their creative works. ... Go ahead, get rid of copyright law and you'll not just get rid of Brittney Spears, but also probably every band you like. Without copyright law, people would have no incentive at all to write music since anyone could play it without paying them.
Um, which is it? They'd be artists that are idle rich or willing poor, or people wouldn't create anything at all with a monetary incentive?
Actually you may need to prove that you DO own the CD. I know this flys in the face of innocent until proven guilty...but thats what's likely to happen.
Indeed. Its just like the idea that its ok to restrict speech that might cause 'clear and present danger.'
No where is it written that the 1st amendment excludes that kind of speech. Instead, it was decided by a court case, which later court cases referenced. Although there is no law stating such (if there is, i'd like to see the relevent Code identifiers) it is commonly taken as 'law.' Basically it means that the courts have created a law..not Congress. This is clearly outside the scope of the court's power.
You do realize that we have far more rights then those spelled out the Bill of Rights.
Copyright however ISN'T a real right; it exists at the sole discression of Congress (read the Consitution).
2: punishment: making sure people are sufficantly afraid of going to prison that they think twice before doing the crime in the first place.
The deterant arguement...I've never found it to hold up. Only unstable people commit crimes knowing they will be caught. The vast majority of criminals don't care about the punishment because they honestly do not believe they will be caught. Therefore harsh punishments do not create a deterant, and thus has no impact on crime rates (notice the non-effect raising punishments for drug related crimes).
But you'd never earn 1.5 mil on that dollar..the most YOU could get is that one dollar.
You also fail to realize that the manufacturers get paid when they ship to the merchants. So the manufacturer has probably been letting the $40 they made selling to the merchant sit in the bank and using the intrest to pay for the rebates.
I'm starting to understand your user name..
.No, the manufacturers fault is advertising a $50 rebate on his product, a statement which is false.
Um, sorry its not false. You do in fact receive a check for $50. The manufacturer doesn't set sales tax, governments do. Tax is ALWAYS the responsibility of the consumer. You know that your 9.99 item will cost more because of tax. You should know that since sales tax must be paid on the SALE price that it won't be discounted because the rebate occurs after the fact.
Since the rebate is performed after taxes, the doubling of the tax occurs on the rebate portion itself, i.e. you are being refunded less then $50 promised in the price of the item.
The rebate says I get $50 back, and I get $50 back. Sales tax has noting to do with the manufacturer or merchant. ITS ALWAYS THE CONSUMERS RESPONSIBILITY. Unless you're a total moron going to the register (which i'm starting to supsect you are), you KNOW that tax will be charged on the full price, becauseyou're paying full price at the time of sale. Thats how the law works.
Yes I am because allowing a small thief to get away with something, quickly prompts a larger thief to attempt the same on a larger scale. In the case of the mail "rebate", the vendor is successfully lying about the value of his "discount" to the tune of tens of millions of dollars since a $7.50 times a million units sold is $7.5 million.
That $7.5 million goes right to the state, because they're the ones leving the tax. So if you want to call them a thief fine, but they are the ones forcing the 10.99 item to 12.53. and as a consumer you KNOW there is a sales tax.
One of us allows himself to be fleeced by an assorted crowd of thieves and crooks on what appears a regular basis and, what is more amazing, actively encourages such practice. The other does not. I leave it as a exercise to the reader as to which one of us is an "idiot".
Ha, ok. If my $100 purchase now becomes $50 + sales tax, then fine feel free to think I'm the idiot. However I'm not the one claiming double taxation and calling people thiefs for giving me money back. So go ahead pay full price ($106 after tax), and i'll gladly pay only $56 (after tax) for the same thing because I can properly enter my name and address on a form and drop it in the mail.
Yes, I thought of this...but if I was a merchant, I'd tell the manufacturer to piss off. My position would be 'Why does the manufacturer get to dictate my profit margin? I know I could charge customers more, and they'd be willing to pay, so why should someone else tell me I can't.'
Now I realize that there are a few products that people want a very specific brand for...but most products are not in that position.
For example, do you think anyone avoids a restraunt because they choose to serve Pepsi over Coke?
Do you think it matters which 100Mbit network card I buy? One might even considering buying the equivolent ATI card if its cheaper (due to rebate or sale price) than Nvidia.
I think there are very few manufacturers in a position to dictate to the merchants.
I never said business where saints, just that I don't believe there's a problem with MIRs.
I think is that a minority is complaining so thats why it seems like there's a problem.
Let's also not forget that some (most?) in that minorty may not have followed the instructions..so that would indicate even lessof a problem.
I don't think ther'es a really good way to force merchants to offer a sale...why would they? It may be individual stores that don't offer them too...is the manufacturer supposed to check ALL of thier merchants? Seems unreasonable to me.
No there is not; justice is a purely human invention, which is a combination of fairness and forgiveness.
Our corrections system (going to assume you're in the US too) is horriblly flawed. I think people would like prison to be a black hole that 'criminals' vanish into, until of course its thier kid.
Personally, rehabilitation should be the first priority, but in cases where that's not possible, then it should be to keep offenders from threatening others again.
I dub thee retarted asshat.
I've done 2 BB rebates at most; all the other ones where manufacturer direct.
Bullshit. Merchants ADVERTISE the rebates like dangling bait. In fact, most merchants advertise the REBATED price instead of the actual "you are paying this at the register" price.
I'm sure they don't mind advertising; it brings people into thier store, but the fact is that it costs the merchant nothing (they still make thier full profit margin).
It is mostly an advertising scam. If you fail to see that you are blind.
Funny, because I've gotten all the rebates I've sent in. If its a scam, its not a very good one.
And since they are the ones determining legibility, you have no say in the matter. And while we are at it, xerox copies aren't accepted, for obvious reasons, so how does one resubmit when they don't send back ALL the original documents (including the ORIGINAL reciept and UPC labels)?
Again its funny that all of my friends and family get thier rebates just fine. Maybe you just write like a 2yr old? I've never had to resubmit, but I bet a call to them and they will explain how to resubmit. If they didn't, they'd quickly be fined.
It is more productive if the manufacturer's rebate is between the murchant and the manufacturer instead of the customer and manufacturer. This is called an "instant rebate" and the customer is out of the picture as soon as they leave the store.
Nothing stops the retails and manufactures from doing this, of course there's nothing to garentee the merchant will pass on the savings (in fact, there's much insentive not to).
It is an advertising scam in that you will see in large red letters "$PRICE*" and following the usual look at the bottom of the page in the smallest print known to man is *$PRICE after $X rebate". That is a scam when you boldly display one price and charge at the register another.
Ahh, a nice claim, do you have an proof, a photo perhaps of the unusually small letters? Do you need a magnifying glass to read them? Or perhaps just glasses...because the ones I've seen that do change the tag, its pretty clearly labeled that its after rebate. Oh, and if you would rather not buy the product because the lower price is after rebate, feel free to leave it at the register (where they will explain to you what you missed in the aisle).
"Most rebate forms" say nothing of the sort. It is a trade off for the rebate that you will get put on a spam list. It is silly to not expect them to use it for marketing both mail and the selling of the data collected. They are a business after all and if that data becomes more valuable than it costs to produce bet your ass they will sell it.
All the ones I've filled out recently have. Not to meantion that i never saw an increase in postal spam after filling out rebates. Most spam i get is 'resident' and places i've actually ordered from (ie they send me a catalog).
Does the tin foil hat chaff your head from wearing it 24/7?
Believe me, business does ALOT of scummy things, but MIRs don't seem to be one of them.
Sorry but i don't know you well enough to know if you had an actual problem or just failed to follow instructions.
I don't feel like dismissing the $4 just because it's small. It's still a hidden cost and I don't like it.
Its not hidden; its easily calculated, even by an 8th grader. That one doesn't take the time to consider it is thier own fault.
And it could be worth a lot more to you. If you have a credit card balance @ %18 you could put $50 on that and save $3 over 4 months. Now the extra cost on your $50 hard disk is $6.50. You're paying over %10 more than if they'd just sell it for $50 in-store. For irony's sake imagine it was a Best Buy credit card you have the balance on. Then you're actually paying them $3 for the privilage of holding your $50.
Well you could save alot more of 4 months by not buying anything at all and payin off your card. Thats irrelevent. You could just as easily take your rebate check and apply it to you card as well. Don't try to confuse the issue by bringing in irrelevent debt.
The point is the great prices listed with MIRs are lower than the real cost.
The price listed is already lower then the real cost, because tax is not included in that cost. Whats your point here?
Yup. Like in car sales. The buyers often feel bad the next day.
Its not like in car sales. In rebates, you're usually spending at most a few hundred dollars. With a car thats easliy 15,000.
Because they feel they were pressured into something they didn't really want/couldn't afford. The salesmen know the tricks to get people to buy things they wouldn't have bought otherwise and purposefully act in a manner contrary to the best interests of the consumer.
Give me a fucking break. I'm sorry that people are so weak willed that someone can be 'pressured' into buy a car. No one forced a gun to thier head. I deal with high pressure salesmen by leaving, as I don't want to put up with thier shit. But no amount of thier talking will make me buy a car on the spot. Sorry, if people really have that much of a problem with being pressured, then ya, its thier fault...they need some backbone.
Are you saying that a salesman that knowingly acts in a manner contrary to the best interests of the customer is blameless when the customer is coerced into the action that harms them?
Yes, it is the customers fault. Grow a backbone already. As long as the salesman is truthful (and yes, the rebate forms ARE truthful) then there is no one to blame but the customer.
People need to learn self control, they have only themselves to blame if they are so easily maniupulated.
In places with high sales tax (say Canada at 14%) a $50 "rebate" comes out to $42.50 due to the fact that it comes after taxes i.e. double taxation.
Of course thats the manufacturers fault, a high sales tax. I'm sure its 14% as a direct result of offering rebates huh?
Double taxation? Huh? You paid the sales tax at purchase and then you paid tax...oh wait, you didn't pay tax again. So thats a total of one time that you paid taxes, so you can't claim double taxation.
The fact is that sales tax is between you and the government. They dictate when it has to be collected and how much..dont' like it they get it lowered. Are you also upset that when you buy something its not really 10.99, its 12.53 instead? False advertising!! OMG!!
Idiot.
Mail in rebates are also a financial scam, since the vendor/manufacturer gets to hold on to your money for 8-12 weeks, earning iterest on it and using it for operational purposes.
Ohhh....$50 * 1.02 = 51. A whole dollar per month? Yea, those evil bastards.
Surely you meant: Mail-in rebates are for stupid or illiterate consumers.
No, thats not what I meant at all. Nice try though.
Let me enumerate the fetures of a mail-in rebate as compared to an actual, old-fashioned, "primitive", you know, cash discount:
Lets understand that, you know, rebates have traditionally been a way for the manufactures to lower thier price, when a merchant doesn't want to have a sale. Lower prices spur buying, and rebates are a way to lower prices (as they can't force merchants to do).
Mail in rebates make the consumer perform the paperwork and legwork instad of the vendor
Oh my god, you mean that, *gasp* the customer has to prove they bought the product for which the rebate is being offered, and during the time frame its being offered? You're right, thats asking alot.
Mail in rebates are designed to create an apperance of a lower price while not offerring one unconditionally, i.e. they are a form of a scam
No, they are designed with the understanding that you pay full price, and the manufacturer will send you a check for the rebate amount, thus lowering you end price. I fail to see how saying 'buy this, and i'll send you a check for $10' is a scam. The fact is that it is unconditional.
Mail in rebates are designed to offer the manufacturer wiggle room in not paying them, i.e. claims of "illegible writing" or "water damaged envelopes" or "we never got that mail" etc are possible.
Um, what exactly do you expect if your entry is illegible? How can they possibly send it out? They could guess at your name or address...but would that get it to you for sure? Mail can be damaged by water, and things do get lost in the mail. But its not only rebates that get hit.
Mail in rebates are designed to be an annoyance and hassle in order to deter consumers from actually claiming them
Yes, its a real hassel to fill out your name and address, and prove that you a) bought the proper item (by providing a upc) and b) buying it within the specified time period (by providing a copy of your reciept). It can't be much less info then that, or do you think companies should just take your word for it?
Literate and wise consumers recognize this for what it is, i.e. a form of a "bait and switch" scam by the vendor and manufacturer and do complain to Better Business Bureau or law officials.
Actually literate and wise consumers can properly fill out a form and put it in an envelope.
Congratulations, the vendor has trained you to be a circus monkey for them: "Plague, cut the barcode, fill the form with all your personal data for sale to direct mailers, pay for postage, run to the post office, go to the bank depositing the cheque! Good monkey!"
You're a fuckwit. I could easily call you a trained monkey for using a bank over a credit union (they trained you to give them all your info, then turn around and sell it).
Guess what, most rebate forms state they WON'T sell your data...and I didn't realize that name and address was ALL of my personal data. You're right though, I should expect them to magically teleport the check directly into my hand, without them even know who sent in the form!
You're got some unrealistic expectations. Go join a church, they believe alot of non-sense too. You'll fit right in.
The truth is that I have not personally met ANYONE that has had problems with rebates.
If you think that the only things that get lost in the mail are rebate forms, you sourly mistaken. I've had bills, letters and even a package that took over three months to finally be delivered.
I actually got a rebate check the other day..after someone else had seemed to have opened it. but I still got the check.
You're not required to feel sorry for him, but if you should be on a jury in such a situtation, justice requires that you ignore what he did (since said criminal either has paid or is paying for his crime).
#1 Sales tax gets charged on the pre-rebated price. It's probably not a big deal in the states where sales taxes are usually lower. Where I live (Ontario if you must) sales tax is %15. From your example this gets charged on the $99. $7.50 more than if it were charged on the $49.99.
Well, most places in the US don't have 15%, they have less then half that rate. Which is less then $3.50.
The lost intrest is $0.50. Are you really that worried about $0.50? You'd need 10 rebates to lose $5.
In total, you 'lost' $4.00. Is it really that big a deal that your $50 rebate is more like $46? Especially considering that you know this in advance?
I tihnk you need to worry about something more than the occasional $4.00 loss on you rebate.
Sure, it's the customer's fault for not doing their part, but it's the reseller's fault for exploiting the behaviour.
You clearly admit its the customers fault, yet you blame the offerer anyway?
Both me and my business partner are Christians
I see, you have thrown out anything logical, and just make things up or believe a book that was never proven to be the word of god. so tell me, which version of the bible do you believe and why do you believe it, knowing that MAN has altered it for our own purposes in the past?