Indeed, you did waste my time. You can't even consider that may, just maybe, the income tax is wrong?
I find it somewhat amusing that, just as the owner of the site said, you got emotional and started name calling at the mere mention that maybe income tax shouldn't be allowed.
If you had actually tried to bother reading the site, you'd see it talks about more than taxes.
But thats ok, go back into your hole, pretend none of your rights are being violated, and that you truely live in a society that will leave you alone.
See, one of the fundamental assumptions in our society is that the government is legitimate and that it obeys the rules set out for it. As long as that's true, the government should not be overthrown.
But its not, thats pretty clear to even most people.
The first thing you need to realize is that the people who created our government were smarter than you are. That's nothing to be ashamed of; they were smarter than I am, and smarter than everybody I've ever known. We're talking about once-in-a-millennium minds here.
I'd agree with that, and even they realized that sometimes violent revolution is the only way to fix things. Please note that I'm not saying thats even the case now...my point is that if its illegal to suggest it now it will be illegal to suggest it when it really needs to be.
They concocted a system of government that works under all conditions, past or present. Our system of government has never yet failed. Even when we were in the darkest days of the civil war, when it seemed that our republic might fall, the government stood.
That depends on how you define failure. If you mean its still here...then possibily you are correct. Some would argue however that our current gov't so so far out of tune with what was intended. Currently, we know it NOT to be following its own rules.
Is it perfect? No. Nothing ever is. But when we become aware of its flaws, the intricate and complex system of checks and balances comes into play and sets things right. The system is self-correcting, and when you really understand it, it's a wonder to behold.
Asking if its perfect is a waste of time; I think most reasonable people would agree you cannot attain perfection. The systems corrections seem to be failing however. This site provides some interesting insight. I've also had similar experiences in traffic court...I have an SSN and licence...but i know exactly what he meant when he said the judge railroaded it. I call traffic court McJustice. Also read his thoughts on case law (which isn't law at all...but judges seem to favor case law even though said cases may have been 'wrong' verdicts).
So to answer your question, the government should not be overthrown. If circumstances ever did arise where it should be -- I'm not convinced that they will --then the question of whether it's legal to say so will be the least of your worries.
I didn't ask if it should be now, or even talk about the US gov't. I said if there is one that SHOULD be, shouldn't the citizens be allowed to talk about it?
You claim our system isn't perfect, yet then claim that it will never need to be overthrown. I suggest you look at history; all governments become corrupt and abusive, its just a matter of time. It naive to think that an imperfect government will last forever.
When you vote someone into office it is their duty to represent the people. The issue is the the representitives are voted in by the majority so sometimes the minority does not have a voice.
And the US gov't was formed to let the minority do as they wish too. Check out this site...some very interesting reading http://www.cjmciver.org/sapf/
No system of government is perfect. Typically it is the majority that controls the decisions.(whether the majority is the number of people, or the number of guns(power/control) one has).
This is true, but some try to be more perfect then others;-)
Since our gov't is by the will of the people, if the people wish to overthrow it then no, it does not have that right.
Which is the problem of course; the government getting too out of line with what the people do want...if the gov't wasn't, no one would want to overthrow it.
Um, I belive this is false. Most people accused were innocent of any wrongdoing; hence the term McCarthyism relating to a witch hunt.
The fact that we were on the brink of war changes nothing; the world will always be a dangerous place, that doesn't justify the violation of liberties.
I agree; panic is never helpful. Although if someone shouted fire i think it'd be prudent to leave.
I also think that, should fire / EMS arrive at the scene, the person that yelled fire would be responsible for any charges.
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The simple fact is, I can not remember 15 license plates at a time.
Totally understandable, but you wouldn't have to if you didn't assume your customers were thieves.
The police will not even take a report if you do not have a plate number.
Talk to them about that. Somehow I doubt they get very far with just your word and the plate number. You didn't mention that there was video to back up your claims, so I won't assume it.
There is nothing stopping a dishonest employee from stealing your credit card number.
Fair enough, but that doesn't mean I want said dishonest employee to use my plate to show up and steal my mail before i get home (a common ID theft tactic).
You, as a customer, are allowing them to take possession of it. Thats a choice you make.
Just like you're making a choice to sell a product at barely a profit which has a moderate risk associated with it.
The links where just to show that cities are starting to legislate this.
A city does not mean all cities. I also re-read the links...no where does it say anything about the feelings of suburban people. Again, you seem to be making things up.
expect to see them forced upon you by lawmakers.
Oh of course, because YAL will solve the problem, it will just vanish.
Fine, but those are different from advocating violent overthrow of the government, publically threatening anyone, or divulging state secrets.
Is there something inherently wrong with these though? What if the government in question SHOULD be overthrown?
My problem is that it assumes that just because someone posts on a website to overthrow, then someone that reads it and actually attempts to do so seems to be absolved of responsibility of their own actions.
It might be a state secret that people are being grabbed in black helichopters and tortured, but that doesn't mean the people don't have a right to know.
I agreed with you until your third paragraph, where you seem to go way out there.
You're not free to tell somebody else's secrets.
Sure you are, whats to stop you? Of course you're being vague here...are you talking about trade secrets or my friend's?
You're not free to repeat somebody else's words without permission (with a few exceptions).
Yes, you are. You're telling me I can't possibly repeat what someone at work told me? Sorry, but this doesn't fly.
You're not free to lie, in may cases
Actually, in most cases you are. You're saying its illegal for a 17 yr old to tell their parent they were at a friends instead of at a party? I'd love you see you find a case prosecuted over that.
lying to deprive somebody of money or value is fraud
Finally, something that IS accurate.
and lying to cause harm is slander.
But you need demonstratable harm. 'You broke my heart' as the result of a lie is hardly actionable.
The freedom of speech is important, but like all freedoms it has to be balanced very carefully.
Indeed there are a very few occasions to restrict speech, but there are exceptions, and its better to err on the side of freedom then government control.
Exactly. Which is why people should not comply with such gag orders, and mail all the details they can to the press.
This is really the ultimate weapon against the gov't...sure the person in violation will end in jail..but a great injustice may be exposed and people would be outraged at his being jailed as well.
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Actually, I worked in quite a nice part of town. Soccer moms and 60+'ers were the most common theifs of gas. Do you realise how much one of those SUVs and big ass Oldsmobiles can hold?
Yes I do, which is why i don't own one. At any rate, its nice to know that those groups of people are as hipocritcal as i suspected they were. (Although the older people might honestly be forgetting to pay..)
Actually, I worked in quite a nice part of town. Soccer moms and 60+'ers were the most common theifs of gas. Do you realise how much one of those SUVs and big ass Oldsmobiles can hold?
If you're not assuming everyone is a thief, why write down thier plate number? You are assuming they are a thief and you're attempting to gather 'evidence' before a crime is even committed. If you didn't think they'd steal your gas, you wouldn't write down thier plate would you?
Would you rather we just handed someone a sheet with the last 100 customer's license plates because they wanted it?
I'd rather you not write down any plates at all.
The numbers were crossed off after the customer paid, and it would take a lot of effort to go back and associate each plate with a credit card.
Putting a single line through an entry doesn't make it unreadable. The fact is that you could look at those lists and see approximately how many times someone goes to the gas station. If other stores keep such list its possible to establish a route.
The numbers were crossed off after the customer paid, and it would take a lot of effort to go back and associate each plate with a credit card.
Obviously you can figure it if you know which plate to cross off. Isn't it possible a dishonest employee could take the time to write the CC # next to the plate, or at least a portion of it? It seems to me your store decided to collect more customer data without even thinking about potential abuses by your own employees. That's irresponsible if you ask me.
People complain about this little stuff and then get mad when cities insist on stations requiring all customersto prepay because of all the police reports. Make up your mind people.
Now you're making sweeping statements, and just making yourself look stupid.
Did you even read the articles you linked? The title of the first one is "Prepay law won't faze central city residents". There's also this nice line toward the end: "Stower's station is not located in the best of areas, but surprisingly she said gas drive-offs have seldom been a problem."
Doesn't sound like the drive offs are even a problem, and most people don't care about prepaying at all.
The second link is a 'fact sheet' made by convience store owners; of course they're going to say its a huge problem to them. I notice a lack of any references to back up their claims either.
I think you should stop making sweeping generalizations; I've not seen one message on this thread complaining about prepay, but i've seen plenty on the collection of plate numbers.
However, that may mean doing without the purchase or service for which your number was requested.
Which is where we are today; you really can't refuse it because you won't be able to get the things you want / need. Doesn't sound very voluntary to me.
Banks pay you intrest, which is taxable. Mortgage intrest is deducable..both get reported to the IRS. Not that suprising..
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You must have your station ina really bad part of town, if each and every one of your customers drives off.
I know where the 'bad' part of town is..maybe we should just get the police to lock them all up.. wouldn't that be easier?
Better yet, since everyone according to you is a criminal, maybe we should just all jail ourselves, and eliminate crime.
Your coming and goings in and out of my establishment should be my business. But as I have stated, feel free to go to another gas station (where they will do the same thing). Don't use a credit card. Fill up portable tanks and carry them to your car.
Once I leave and you can clearly see i haven't stolen anything you should no longer care. And no, not all gas stations record plates...not all of them assume everyone is a criminal.
You can call and tell them not to send you the convience checks anymore. I've done so and stopped gettign them. Its better they don't print them instead of me having to shread them.
Take an American Social Security Number for instance. Technically, no one but the government can require you to give out the number.
That is most certainly incorrect. Anyone may ask for it, there are no laws preventing someone from doing so. Its even legal to deny services for refusal.
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I'd contend that your comings and goings should NOT be public record. It really isn't anybody's business.
Before you responds with 'so what, what is the harm,' please tell my why not recording this data is harmful or necessary.
You're right, those are invalid reasons to oppose the Holocaust, but you miss the point of the GP post.
Telling someone not to kill because a book they hold in disregard tells them not to will fail, as it should. Its appealing to Faith, or Hatred, or Tradition.
If you say its wrong to kill and back it up with a LOGICAL reason, then you have a case (and you can derive basic human rights based soley on logic).
Or could it be that the hot, important issues you list here simply aren't as important to the rest of us as you think they should be? After all, most of these issues are liberal hot point issues that make assumptions that aren't true.
You seem to be making the assumption that 'most people' are conservatives and thats why the issues you don't think are important are not important. Did you even stop to consider that maybe the media DOES gloss over truely relevent issues? That it does so because its not sensationalistic enough? That they've been doing it since long before Bush II was president?
For instance, gerrymandering? People have been bitching about gerrymandering for centuries. But it's a hot issue to you now that the Republicans are going to undo the pathetically partisan Democratic district lines drawn in southern states over the past century.
I've always felt this issue was important. You think its pathetic what the Democrats have done, but think the Repbulicans will set things up to be fair and honest. Get a clue; they're not going to 'undo' what the democrats did, they're going to do the exact same thing, but for themselves. Both sides are in the wrong, but since its your side thats doing it now, I guess you can forgive them.
And since when do open democracies take to the streets by the millions to topple presidents? That's mob rule, not democracy! And it only seems to happen in places like the Ukraine, Kyrzygstan, and Lebanon, where the people are tired of their corrupt politicians and petty dictators.
So people should never rise up against their government if it gets out of hand? We don't have corrupt politicians here? Do we have to wait until then to do so?
Do you even know that THIS country was founded in revolution? You seem to be implying that only 3rd world countries have revolutions, and that nothing good can come from them.
Way to make gross oversimplifications and assumptions yourself..
Slashdot Mirror
Rebates are bad for consumers.
Rebates are bad for stupid, illiterate or lazy consumers. I've never had a single problem getting my rebates.
Indeed, you did waste my time. You can't even consider that may, just maybe, the income tax is wrong?
I find it somewhat amusing that, just as the owner of the site said, you got emotional and started name calling at the mere mention that maybe income tax shouldn't be allowed.
If you had actually tried to bother reading the site, you'd see it talks about more than taxes.
But thats ok, go back into your hole, pretend none of your rights are being violated, and that you truely live in a society that will leave you alone.
My instinct is to say, "yes, if it is a minority that is threatening them and no, if it is a majority."
I'd be curious as to who was in the minority and who wsa in the majority for the Revolutionary War.
See, one of the fundamental assumptions in our society is that the government is legitimate and that it obeys the rules set out for it. As long as that's true, the government should not be overthrown.
But its not, thats pretty clear to even most people.
The first thing you need to realize is that the people who created our government were smarter than you are. That's nothing to be ashamed of; they were smarter than I am, and smarter than everybody I've ever known. We're talking about once-in-a-millennium minds here.
I'd agree with that, and even they realized that sometimes violent revolution is the only way to fix things. Please note that I'm not saying thats even the case now...my point is that if its illegal to suggest it now it will be illegal to suggest it when it really needs to be.
They concocted a system of government that works under all conditions, past or present. Our system of government has never yet failed. Even when we were in the darkest days of the civil war, when it seemed that our republic might fall, the government stood.
That depends on how you define failure. If you mean its still here...then possibily you are correct. Some would argue however that our current gov't so so far out of tune with what was intended. Currently, we know it NOT to be following its own rules.
Is it perfect? No. Nothing ever is. But when we become aware of its flaws, the intricate and complex system of checks and balances comes into play and sets things right. The system is self-correcting, and when you really understand it, it's a wonder to behold.
Asking if its perfect is a waste of time; I think most reasonable people would agree you cannot attain perfection. The systems corrections seem to be failing however. This site provides some interesting insight. I've also had similar experiences in traffic court...I have an SSN and licence...but i know exactly what he meant when he said the judge railroaded it. I call traffic court McJustice. Also read his thoughts on case law (which isn't law at all...but judges seem to favor case law even though said cases may have been 'wrong' verdicts).
So to answer your question, the government should not be overthrown. If circumstances ever did arise where it should be -- I'm not convinced that they will --then the question of whether it's legal to say so will be the least of your worries.
I didn't ask if it should be now, or even talk about the US gov't. I said if there is one that SHOULD be, shouldn't the citizens be allowed to talk about it?
You claim our system isn't perfect, yet then claim that it will never need to be overthrown. I suggest you look at history; all governments become corrupt and abusive, its just a matter of time. It naive to think that an imperfect government will last forever.
When you vote someone into office it is their duty to represent the people. The issue is the the representitives are voted in by the majority so sometimes the minority does not have a voice.
;-)
And the US gov't was formed to let the minority do as they wish too. Check out this site...some very interesting reading http://www.cjmciver.org/sapf/
No system of government is perfect. Typically it is the majority that controls the decisions.(whether the majority is the number of people, or the number of guns(power/control) one has).
This is true, but some try to be more perfect then others
Since our gov't is by the will of the people, if the people wish to overthrow it then no, it does not have that right.
Which is the problem of course; the government getting too out of line with what the people do want...if the gov't wasn't, no one would want to overthrow it.
Um, I belive this is false. Most people accused were innocent of any wrongdoing; hence the term McCarthyism relating to a witch hunt.
The fact that we were on the brink of war changes nothing; the world will always be a dangerous place, that doesn't justify the violation of liberties.
When one takes clear action to overthrow teh government perhaps? I'd say thats a pretty well defined line.
You also ignore the scenario that there is a government that SHOULD be overthrown.
I agree; panic is never helpful. Although if someone shouted fire i think it'd be prudent to leave.
I also think that, should fire / EMS arrive at the scene, the person that yelled fire would be responsible for any charges.
The simple fact is, I can not remember 15 license plates at a time.
Totally understandable, but you wouldn't have to if you didn't assume your customers were thieves.
The police will not even take a report if you do not have a plate number.
Talk to them about that. Somehow I doubt they get very far with just your word and the plate number. You didn't mention that there was video to back up your claims, so I won't assume it.
There is nothing stopping a dishonest employee from stealing your credit card number.
Fair enough, but that doesn't mean I want said dishonest employee to use my plate to show up and steal my mail before i get home (a common ID theft tactic).
You, as a customer, are allowing them to take possession of it. Thats a choice you make.
Just like you're making a choice to sell a product at barely a profit which has a moderate risk associated with it.
The links where just to show that cities are starting to legislate this.
A city does not mean all cities. I also re-read the links...no where does it say anything about the feelings of suburban people. Again, you seem to be making things up.
expect to see them forced upon you by lawmakers.
Oh of course, because YAL will solve the problem, it will just vanish.
Fine, but those are different from advocating violent overthrow of the government, publically threatening anyone, or divulging state secrets.
Is there something inherently wrong with these though? What if the government in question SHOULD be overthrown?
My problem is that it assumes that just because someone posts on a website to overthrow, then someone that reads it and actually attempts to do so seems to be absolved of responsibility of their own actions.
It might be a state secret that people are being grabbed in black helichopters and tortured, but that doesn't mean the people don't have a right to know.
I agreed with you until your third paragraph, where you seem to go way out there.
You're not free to tell somebody else's secrets.
Sure you are, whats to stop you? Of course you're being vague here...are you talking about trade secrets or my friend's?
You're not free to repeat somebody else's words without permission (with a few exceptions).
Yes, you are. You're telling me I can't possibly repeat what someone at work told me? Sorry, but this doesn't fly.
You're not free to lie, in may cases
Actually, in most cases you are. You're saying its illegal for a 17 yr old to tell their parent they were at a friends instead of at a party? I'd love you see you find a case prosecuted over that.
lying to deprive somebody of money or value is fraud
Finally, something that IS accurate.
and lying to cause harm is slander.
But you need demonstratable harm. 'You broke my heart' as the result of a lie is hardly actionable.
The freedom of speech is important, but like all freedoms it has to be balanced very carefully.
Indeed there are a very few occasions to restrict speech, but there are exceptions, and its better to err on the side of freedom then government control.
Exactly. Which is why people should not comply with such gag orders, and mail all the details they can to the press.
This is really the ultimate weapon against the gov't...sure the person in violation will end in jail..but a great injustice may be exposed and people would be outraged at his being jailed as well.
Actually, I worked in quite a nice part of town. Soccer moms and 60+'ers were the most common theifs of gas. Do you realise how much one of those SUVs and big ass Oldsmobiles can hold?
Yes I do, which is why i don't own one. At any rate, its nice to know that those groups of people are as hipocritcal as i suspected they were. (Although the older people might honestly be forgetting to pay..)
Actually, I worked in quite a nice part of town. Soccer moms and 60+'ers were the most common theifs of gas. Do you realise how much one of those SUVs and big ass Oldsmobiles can hold?
If you're not assuming everyone is a thief, why write down thier plate number? You are assuming they are a thief and you're attempting to gather 'evidence' before a crime is even committed. If you didn't think they'd steal your gas, you wouldn't write down thier plate would you?
Would you rather we just handed someone a sheet with the last 100 customer's license plates because they wanted it?
I'd rather you not write down any plates at all.
The numbers were crossed off after the customer paid, and it would take a lot of effort to go back and associate each plate with a credit card.
Putting a single line through an entry doesn't make it unreadable. The fact is that you could look at those lists and see approximately how many times someone goes to the gas station. If other stores keep such list its possible to establish a route.
The numbers were crossed off after the customer paid, and it would take a lot of effort to go back and associate each plate with a credit card.
Obviously you can figure it if you know which plate to cross off. Isn't it possible a dishonest employee could take the time to write the CC # next to the plate, or at least a portion of it? It seems to me your store decided to collect more customer data without even thinking about potential abuses by your own employees. That's irresponsible if you ask me.
People complain about this little stuff and then get mad when cities insist on stations requiring all customersto prepay because of all the police reports. Make up your mind people.
Now you're making sweeping statements, and just making yourself look stupid.
Did you even read the articles you linked? The title of the first one is "Prepay law won't faze central city residents". There's also this nice line toward the end: "Stower's station is not located in the best of areas, but surprisingly she said gas drive-offs have seldom been a problem."
Doesn't sound like the drive offs are even a problem, and most people don't care about prepaying at all.
The second link is a 'fact sheet' made by convience store owners; of course they're going to say its a huge problem to them. I notice a lack of any references to back up their claims either.
I think you should stop making sweeping generalizations; I've not seen one message on this thread complaining about prepay, but i've seen plenty on the collection of plate numbers.
I don't think you can be refused for bad credit, but they may require a deposit of some kind.
From the same FAQ that i linked..
However, that may mean doing without the purchase or service for which your number was requested.
Which is where we are today; you really can't refuse it because you won't be able to get the things you want / need. Doesn't sound very voluntary to me.
Banks pay you intrest, which is taxable. Mortgage intrest is deducable..both get reported to the IRS. Not that suprising..
You must have your station ina really bad part of town, if each and every one of your customers drives off.
I know where the 'bad' part of town is..maybe we should just get the police to lock them all up.. wouldn't that be easier?
Better yet, since everyone according to you is a criminal, maybe we should just all jail ourselves, and eliminate crime.
Your coming and goings in and out of my establishment should be my business. But as I have stated, feel free to go to another gas station (where they will do the same thing). Don't use a credit card. Fill up portable tanks and carry them to your car.
Once I leave and you can clearly see i haven't stolen anything you should no longer care. And no, not all gas stations record plates...not all of them assume everyone is a criminal.
Thats correct...but i find it odd.
You don't have to tell where you dumped the body of the girl you raped and murdered, but you must give up your password.
You can call and tell them not to send you the convience checks anymore. I've done so and stopped gettign them. Its better they don't print them instead of me having to shread them.
Take an American Social Security Number for instance. Technically, no one but the government can require you to give out the number.
That is most certainly incorrect. Anyone may ask for it, there are no laws preventing someone from doing so. Its even legal to deny services for refusal.
I'd contend that your comings and goings should NOT be public record. It really isn't anybody's business.
Before you responds with 'so what, what is the harm,' please tell my why not recording this data is harmful or necessary.
As opposed to republicans, where are my police, my baggage screeners, our army to kill those terrorist
I fail to see how making that statement is saying he accepts Bush's assertion.
Osama could very well hate us for valid reasons, and counted on our reaction to in essense 'punish' ourselves.
If i wanted to get back at someone, I'd take much more pleasure engineering something that would cause them to react in a self harming way.
You're right, those are invalid reasons to oppose the Holocaust, but you miss the point of the GP post.
Telling someone not to kill because a book they hold in disregard tells them not to will fail, as it should. Its appealing to Faith, or Hatred, or Tradition.
If you say its wrong to kill and back it up with a LOGICAL reason, then you have a case (and you can derive basic human rights based soley on logic).
And that was the whole point of the PG poster.
Or could it be that the hot, important issues you list here simply aren't as important to the rest of us as you think they should be? After all, most of these issues are liberal hot point issues that make assumptions that aren't true.
You seem to be making the assumption that 'most people' are conservatives and thats why the issues you don't think are important are not important. Did you even stop to consider that maybe the media DOES gloss over truely relevent issues? That it does so because its not sensationalistic enough? That they've been doing it since long before Bush II was president?
For instance, gerrymandering? People have been bitching about gerrymandering for centuries. But it's a hot issue to you now that the Republicans are going to undo the pathetically partisan Democratic district lines drawn in southern states over the past century.
I've always felt this issue was important. You think its pathetic what the Democrats have done, but think the Repbulicans will set things up to be fair and honest. Get a clue; they're not going to 'undo' what the democrats did, they're going to do the exact same thing, but for themselves. Both sides are in the wrong, but since its your side thats doing it now, I guess you can forgive them.
And since when do open democracies take to the streets by the millions to topple presidents? That's mob rule, not democracy! And it only seems to happen in places like the Ukraine, Kyrzygstan, and Lebanon, where the people are tired of their corrupt politicians and petty dictators.
So people should never rise up against their government if it gets out of hand? We don't have corrupt politicians here? Do we have to wait until then to do so?
Do you even know that THIS country was founded in revolution? You seem to be implying that only 3rd world countries have revolutions, and that nothing good can come from them.
Way to make gross oversimplifications and assumptions yourself..