I remember reading somewhere on BBC that a recent study found that there is no nutritional difference between organic and normal grown plants.
There are studies that conclude that and there are others that conclude organic food is more nutritious. The same with crop yields, some conclude the so called conventional which may or may not be conventional (depending on the definition used) produces more food whereas others conclude organics produce more food. Some conclude organics can feed the world whereas other conclude the opposite. I wonder what meta studies would conclude.
Nuclear power is an amazing technology that would solve many of the world's power problems
In a free market Wall Street would not finance nuclear power, the Nuclear Power Industry is "Hooked on Subsidies". Notice what that article even says of other nations "How do France (and India, China and Russia) build cost-effective nuclear power plants? They don't. Governmental officials in those countries, not private investors, decide what is built. Nuclear power appeals to state planners, not market actors." In Finland Olkiluoto 3, being built by the French government owned Areva and Siemens so there is no lack of experience, is 3 year behind schedule and "about $2.4bn dollars (1.7bn euros) over budget."
"In Flamanville, France, a clone of the Finnish reactor now under construction is also behind schedule and overbudget."
"In the United States, Florida and Georgia have changed state laws to raise electricity rates so that consumers will foot some of the bill for new nuclear plants in advance, before construction even begins."
In a free market you don't pay for what you don't use, and it would give you choices as to who supplies you. I'd rather pay a little extra for electricity from a solar or wind farm than I would to be forced to pay for nuclear power.
Oh and solar as well as wind can provide a lot of energy, in the US and Canada, with geothermal serving as a baseload.
They're fighting it because the morons of the world will think that irradiation makes the food dangerous.
Some people are quite rationally concerned because there have been no long term studies on the effects of microwaves on plants, or people, yet studies have shown microwaves can alter DNA.
I'm now convinced that you have a valid point. But your original posting sounded too much like the organic nutcases, and not enough like a person with independent thought.
What organic nutcases? Different people get in organics for different reasons. Heck even Walmart now sells organic food. Though she didn't sell only organic food a friend started her own business selling what was called ecologically friendly products, the Eco-Store. People asked her if she wasn't concerned that large stores like Walmart may start selling the same things and she answered she wanted large businesses to sell them. To her the point was not to make money but to help and protect the environment. Well she got her wish, while her store is closed Walmart and Home Depot now sell CFLs. I see it says the store served the community until 2002 but 7 years later a webpage is still there, if only a single page.
Sarcasm aside, the reason that you find "organic" produce tastier than other produce is because you are comparing locally grown "organic" produce to produce shipped from a distance.
Not necessarily, I can walk 5 minutes to one of my coops, and my state shares a border with Canada, where I can buy bananas. Bananas grow nowhere near here as far as I know. We frequently have organic produce from Mexico, Chile, and other South American nations as well as the Caribbean.
Sometime find someone who grows their own fruits and vegetables and compare them to the "organic" ones, you will find no difference (or possibly the non- "organic" locally grown may actually be tastier than the factory grown "organic" stuff).
To really taste the difference compare Slow Food to today's conventionally cooked food. While some may not taste a difference others taste a big difference.
Employee: Yeah man, we've got some right over here.
Me: This is the cosmetics aisle. It says "Not for human consumption." right on the bottle.
Employee: Oh. But its organic man, its okay.
I had something like that happen to me. After trying Anbesol or Orajel and other pain relievers from Walgreens for a painful tooth I went down to my coop to get clove oil, I've never found anything as good over-the-counter to relieve painful teeth (except hydrogen peroxide which kills infections but takes a while to work), and all they had was labeled "for external use only". I was so disparate I got it anyway. I've used it for years, and even had labels say it can be used for that, and they are used in cooking so I wondered what could make it unsafe if it's pure clove oil.
Microwaves don't irradiate things, that's the point.
Microwaves do cause damage and can even be lethal, and that is the point. To ignore that is to ignore science. And I care about that even if you don't.
The technology has also been proven dangerous, why do you think microwave ovens have switches built in to turn the oven off when the door is opened? Would you step in a human scaled one and let someone turn it on?
Two words: power density.
Thanks for your explanation. However since the GP said microwaves have been proven safe I wanted to point out they have also been proven dangerous and lethal.
Perhaps I should have pointed out weapons system that use microwaves such as the Active Denial System which using microwaves to cause pain in protesters.
microwave "rotates" dipole molecules by altering electric field, hence creating rapid collisions resulting "heat".
Couldn't those collisions be considered "shaking"? While the microwave oven doesn't shake the whole thing, like some shake beer and soda to get it to spray, don't the individual molecules become excited so they rapidly move just like shaking does?
Microwave radiation cooks food by "shaking" the molecules (of water). Of course that isn't going to cause genetic mutation. Yes the guy is an idiot, but if you're going to get into name calling, try to get your own facts right.
How do microwave ovens work if they don't "shake up the molecules"?
I'll use wi-fi all day and you can sit next to some cobalt 58 and we'll see what person's molecules get "shaken up" more.
And will you sit there when you have a directed-energy weapon aimed at you and turned on? The Active Denial System is a weapon that directs, get this, microwaves to cause pain. So if they are so safe why not stay there? Why did the military spend so much on them?
Man, I live in Edmonton now and every so often when I'm waiting at a stoplight or pass my third McDonalds in five minutes I think. "City life." This is followed quickly by "I'm living in a city." and a smile. Sometimes I even giggle. It'll be a cold day in Hell before I go back to the boonies.
And can you survive on your own there? On your own, growing your own food and such, not buying what you need? Now it may not bother you but personally while I left the boonies physically I won't leave it mentally. I leave in a large city and metro area, downtown Minneapolis is 15 minutes bike ride, yet I still garden. I love to cook and can what I grow, though unfortunately my garden didn't produce much. Talking with others, they've had or seen the same think. This summer there hasn't been much rain and while places like Portland, OR, set record highs it has been cool in the Twin Cities.
alter != irradiate. Microwaves heat things and that's about all. I'm tired of morons freaking out over 60W microwave towers because it might possibly raise their garlic.01C and other morons who can't tell irradiate apart from alter.
It is impossible to clean everything perfectly, every time, all the time, with soap and water. Especially on an industrial scale.
As I've said before, that's part of the problem. I don't wash just what I grow in my garden, I also wash produce I buy in stores. There is such a thing as personal responsibility. Now if you want to pay others for that go ahead but don't mandate others to follow you.
Related to this is labeling GMOs and GE food. Businesses have fought any and all requirement to label food as having GE content. I buy organic food and milk, and the label on the milk I buy says "Milk from cows not treated with rBST. No significant difference has been shown between milk derived from rBST treated and non-threated cows." If GE food is so good why are those who sell GE food fighting labeling of GE food and not boosting it's so good instead of requiring labels on organics saying there's no difference? Perhaps because if labels said a product had GMOs sells would drop? Fact is is they are scared.
Well, actually, the microwave internet system is a Line-of-sight point to point beam, so the amount getting to his crops in the ground is actually a number approaching zero.
TFA doesn't say if it's line-of-sight but if so and it does not cross his property I agree his stance may be stupid.
The microwave in his KITCHEN probaly puts more energy into his field than that tower would
He may not have a microwave oven, I don't. And even if I did have one I wouldn't use it.
Of course, Microwave radiation is not ionizing radiation anyway, so the argument is completely moot... Mutation from microwave exposure would require rediculous doses of concentrated radiation, far, far more than it would take to cook the garlic outright.
Slashdot Mirror
Thanks for that. I now have something to chew on, think about, for a while.
Falcon
Even the most unnatural, mutated, inedible freak of a plant is organic, because it is made of friggin carbon. That's the definition of organic.
Others have probably already answered this but I'll reply anyway. There's more than one definition of organic. Even the US Department of Agriculture has it's own.
Falcon
I remember reading somewhere on BBC that a recent study found that there is no nutritional difference between organic and normal grown plants.
There are studies that conclude that and there are others that conclude organic food is more nutritious. The same with crop yields, some conclude the so called conventional which may or may not be conventional (depending on the definition used) produces more food whereas others conclude organics produce more food. Some conclude organics can feed the world whereas other conclude the opposite. I wonder what meta studies would conclude.
Falcon
Seriously, the biggest risk to his crop is from localized heating effect. It won't mutate, it'll just dry out.
It won't cause mutations?
Falcon
Nuclear power is an amazing technology that would solve many of the world's power problems
In a free market Wall Street would not finance nuclear power, the Nuclear Power Industry is "Hooked on Subsidies". Notice what that article even says of other nations "How do France (and India, China and Russia) build cost-effective nuclear power plants? They don't. Governmental officials in those countries, not private investors, decide what is built. Nuclear power appeals to state planners, not market actors." In Finland Olkiluoto 3, being built by the French government owned Areva and Siemens so there is no lack of experience, is 3 year behind schedule and "about $2.4bn dollars (1.7bn euros) over budget."
"In Flamanville, France, a clone of the Finnish reactor now under construction is also behind schedule and overbudget."
"In the United States, Florida and Georgia have changed state laws to raise electricity rates so that consumers will foot some of the bill for new nuclear plants in advance, before construction even begins."
In a free market you don't pay for what you don't use, and it would give you choices as to who supplies you. I'd rather pay a little extra for electricity from a solar or wind farm than I would to be forced to pay for nuclear power.
Oh and solar as well as wind can provide a lot of energy, in the US and Canada, with geothermal serving as a baseload.
They're fighting it because the morons of the world will think that irradiation makes the food dangerous.
Some people are quite rationally concerned because there have been no long term studies on the effects of microwaves on plants, or people, yet studies have shown microwaves can alter DNA.
Falcon
Of course, whenever a study makes a finding opposite to your beliefs, it must have been funded by (pinky in mouth) EVIIIL corporations.
On the other hand, when studies affirm your beliefs, they were obviously funded by Jesus Christ himself, and are holy, uncorrupted, beings.
Aren't those on the other side ignoring studies that say organic is better doing the same?
Falcon
I'm now convinced that you have a valid point. But your original posting sounded too much like the organic nutcases, and not enough like a person with independent thought.
What organic nutcases? Different people get in organics for different reasons. Heck even Walmart now sells organic food. Though she didn't sell only organic food a friend started her own business selling what was called ecologically friendly products, the Eco-Store. People asked her if she wasn't concerned that large stores like Walmart may start selling the same things and she answered she wanted large businesses to sell them. To her the point was not to make money but to help and protect the environment. Well she got her wish, while her store is closed Walmart and Home Depot now sell CFLs. I see it says the store served the community until 2002 but 7 years later a webpage is still there, if only a single page.
Falcon
Sarcasm aside, the reason that you find "organic" produce tastier than other produce is because you are comparing locally grown "organic" produce to produce shipped from a distance.
Not necessarily, I can walk 5 minutes to one of my coops, and my state shares a border with Canada, where I can buy bananas. Bananas grow nowhere near here as far as I know. We frequently have organic produce from Mexico, Chile, and other South American nations as well as the Caribbean.
Sometime find someone who grows their own fruits and vegetables and compare them to the "organic" ones, you will find no difference (or possibly the non- "organic" locally grown may actually be tastier than the factory grown "organic" stuff).
To really taste the difference compare Slow Food to today's conventionally cooked food. While some may not taste a difference others taste a big difference.
Falcon
Me: Do you have any pure mint extract?
Employee: Yeah man, we've got some right over here.
Me: This is the cosmetics aisle. It says "Not for human consumption." right on the bottle.
Employee: Oh. But its organic man, its okay.
I had something like that happen to me. After trying Anbesol or Orajel and other pain relievers from Walgreens for a painful tooth I went down to my coop to get clove oil, I've never found anything as good over-the-counter to relieve painful teeth (except hydrogen peroxide which kills infections but takes a while to work), and all they had was labeled "for external use only". I was so disparate I got it anyway. I've used it for years, and even had labels say it can be used for that, and they are used in cooking so I wondered what could make it unsafe if it's pure clove oil.
Falcon
By definition 3b, DDT, PCBs and hundreds of other toxic chemicals are organic.
But not by definitions 3a(1) and (2). And those are the definitions used by organic farmers, gardeners, and the organic foods industry.
Falcon
Scientific ignorance from the organic produce industry? Really? That's just so shocking.
What's even more shocking is the scientific ignorance displayed on slashdot.
Falcon
He should stick to farming and leave the radio vs radiation science up to the smart people.
Someone go point him to the definitions of "Microwave Radiation" and "Ionizing Radiation"
Perhaps you can point out to the US Military microwaves aren't dangerous.
Falcon
alter DNA.
microwaves alter dna science study or studies.
There's only one way I can describe this guy - fucking ignorant dumbass
Now who's an ignorant dumpass?
Falcon
Microwaves don't irradiate things, that's the point.
Microwaves do cause damage and can even be lethal, and that is the point. To ignore that is to ignore science. And I care about that even if you don't.
Falcon
The technology has also been proven dangerous, why do you think microwave ovens have switches built in to turn the oven off when the door is opened? Would you step in a human scaled one and let someone turn it on?
Two words: power density.
Thanks for your explanation. However since the GP said microwaves have been proven safe I wanted to point out they have also been proven dangerous and lethal.
Perhaps I should have pointed out weapons system that use microwaves such as the Active Denial System which using microwaves to cause pain in protesters.
Falcon
"'I think over a period of time it will change the DNA of the garlic because it shakes up the molecules,' he said Tuesday."
He THINKS? I'd like to KNOW, and know WHY.
microwaves alter dna science study or studies.
Falcon
the crop seems to have already mutated- his garlic repels vampires AND logic!
And perhaps microwaves has mutated other's logic.
Falcon
microwave "rotates" dipole molecules by altering electric field, hence creating rapid collisions resulting "heat".
Couldn't those collisions be considered "shaking"? While the microwave oven doesn't shake the whole thing, like some shake beer and soda to get it to spray, don't the individual molecules become excited so they rapidly move just like shaking does?
Falcon
Microwave radiation cooks food by "shaking" the molecules (of water). Of course that isn't going to cause genetic mutation. Yes the guy is an idiot, but if you're going to get into name calling, try to get your own facts right.
microwaves alter dna science study or studies.
Falcon
How do microwave ovens work if they don't "shake up the molecules"?
I'll use wi-fi all day and you can sit next to some cobalt 58 and we'll see what person's molecules get "shaken up" more.
And will you sit there when you have a directed-energy weapon aimed at you and turned on? The Active Denial System is a weapon that directs, get this, microwaves to cause pain. So if they are so safe why not stay there? Why did the military spend so much on them?
Man, I live in Edmonton now and every so often when I'm waiting at a stoplight or pass my third McDonalds in five minutes I think. "City life." This is followed quickly by "I'm living in a city." and a smile. Sometimes I even giggle. It'll be a cold day in Hell before I go back to the boonies.
And can you survive on your own there? On your own, growing your own food and such, not buying what you need? Now it may not bother you but personally while I left the boonies physically I won't leave it mentally. I leave in a large city and metro area, downtown Minneapolis is 15 minutes bike ride, yet I still garden. I love to cook and can what I grow, though unfortunately my garden didn't produce much. Talking with others, they've had or seen the same think. This summer there hasn't been much rain and while places like Portland, OR, set record highs it has been cool in the Twin Cities.
Falcon
alter != irradiate. Microwaves heat things and that's about all. I'm tired of morons freaking out over 60W microwave towers because it might possibly raise their garlic .01C and other morons who can't tell irradiate apart from alter.
And I'm tired of morons saying there's nothing wrong with microwaves, especially when some science studies say they cause damage.
Falcon
It is impossible to clean everything perfectly, every time, all the time, with soap and water. Especially on an industrial scale.
As I've said before, that's part of the problem. I don't wash just what I grow in my garden, I also wash produce I buy in stores. There is such a thing as personal responsibility. Now if you want to pay others for that go ahead but don't mandate others to follow you.
Related to this is labeling GMOs and GE food. Businesses have fought any and all requirement to label food as having GE content. I buy organic food and milk, and the label on the milk I buy says "Milk from cows not treated with rBST. No significant difference has been shown between milk derived from rBST treated and non-threated cows." If GE food is so good why are those who sell GE food fighting labeling of GE food and not boosting it's so good instead of requiring labels on organics saying there's no difference? Perhaps because if labels said a product had GMOs sells would drop? Fact is is they are scared.
Falcon
http://scienceblogs.com/builtonfacts/2009/09/wifi_and_radiation.php
And a number of rebuttals to microwaves not causing DNA alterations or damage is here: microwaves alter dna science study or studies.
Falcon
Well, actually, the microwave internet system is a Line-of-sight point to point beam, so the amount getting to his crops in the ground is actually a number approaching zero.
TFA doesn't say if it's line-of-sight but if so and it does not cross his property I agree his stance may be stupid.
The microwave in his KITCHEN probaly puts more energy into his field than that tower would
He may not have a microwave oven, I don't. And even if I did have one I wouldn't use it.
Of course, Microwave radiation is not ionizing radiation anyway, so the argument is completely moot... Mutation from microwave exposure would require rediculous doses of concentrated radiation, far, far more than it would take to cook the garlic outright.
Google Scholaring microwaves alter dna science study or studies I found studies that concluded microwaves can alter DNA however I didn't see how much energy was needed.
Falcon
And a quick googling for differently reported versions of the same story, shows that at least some mention microwave radiation explicitly about his complaint. E.g.,
http://www.upi.com/Odd_News/2009/09/16/Garlic-farmer-High-speed-Internet-stinks/UPI-79211253122064/
That article still doesn't credit the farmer with saying microwaves willm damage his crop. It uses the same quote as the one slashdot links to.
If you want to call him an idiot, call him an idiot for the stupid things he actually said (like that a little shaking up mollecules can damage DNA)
Seeing if I could find something using Google's Scholar search to search for microwaves alter dna science study or studies I found studies that concluded microwaves can alter DNA.
Falcon