OS X is FreeBDS underneath. I have X11 installed. I also have Fink to install Debian packages dpkg and apt-get as well as MacPorts which installs rpm packages.
it gets you a WAY better OS than Vista, and WAY more software than any free UNIX.
Of the unices (unixes), OS X, and Windows you get the most from OS X. You can install Unix and Windows software as well as OS X software. With Unix you get Unix and Windows software but not OS X software. The same with Windows. If that's not enough you can actually run all three OSes on a Mac.
I agree on the test drive, but the iApps are probably one of the reasons people buy Mac's iTunes for music, iPhoto for organizing your pictures and iWeb to put it all online in a way that even my parents can understand without too much hassle.
Yea, that's why I said though I don't others want the iApps. I don't have any music, other than what the Mac came with or were embedded in websites I visited. I haven't intentionally downloaded, legally or not any music. Nor have I mounted a music CD in the drive. So I don't use iTunes. For photography I have saved some photos I found online and I have some cds of photos,which I haven't transferred to my Mac yet. When I finally do I may use Aperture but I won't use iPhoto. For websites I use a text editor. I recently got a new scanner which came with Photoshop Elements which I can, may, use to edit my photos for the web.
Interestingly enough, if you install the OS you don't get the iApps by default
Interesting, I had to install thinks like X11 and XCode. Because they are specialized software I'd expect to have to install those, but not the iApps. For those I'd expect to be installed by default.
Jesus christ, who can afford either machine to begin with?
Yea, I wish I could. Hopefully RSN I'll start my business then in a year be able to afford one.
I'm just going to stick with my £399 laptop which costs the same price of a low end Mac mini, while it handles games better than the Macbook and MacBook pro.
I don't play games but I do plan on using my Macbook Pro for photography. Actually because it isn't as high res as I'd like in two or three months I want to buy the one with higher res. Then I'd put this one on eBay.
Macs are certainly affordable now, but you seriously cannot tell me Macs are cheaper.
Before I got my Macbook Pro I compared it's price to similarly configured Windows laptops. A Dell was $200 more than the Mac and other laptops were about the same price. Not one of them was more than $100 less than my Mac. Here's a comparison of the costs of a Mac and a Dell, the specs are almost the same but the Dell is almost $1000 more. Don't tell me Macs are more expensive.
Of course the purely naturalistic zealots will have none of that and will summarily dismiss any such nuggets of evidence.
Just as Creationists do now with evolution?
That is why we need to show the evidence as it really is
I have never seen any evidence for a creator/designer that can't also have another explanation.
and teach critical thinking skills.
Oh, I agree but Creationists/IDers only take things on faith. I don't know how many tymes I've heard, probably thousands, "because it says it in the Bible".
A couple of times I followed orders and almost got court marshaled for doing so. I was lucky as my boss was a civilian and he stuck up for me (he was a GS-15).
I too was lucky at my first post. For some reason the captain of my company liked me. He frequently asked me if I wanted to go to this school or that school. One school I particularly liked was for Explosive Ordinance Disposal, EOD. He then made me one of the EOD experts for the unit. The last school he put me in for was Warrant Officer Flight School to learn to fly helicopters. A couple of months later I got orders to go overseas and asked him about it. He said orders to go overseas almost always cancels other orders. I was so disappointed, as I wanted and still do want to get my pilot's license. It also would have given me more tyme to take college classes, that's why I went into the Army, to save money for college. Once I served my tyme I could have piloted helicopters while attending college, I wanted get my PhD and be a Computer Engineer.
There is definitely something wrong when laptop or PC manufacturers depend on shoving crap down customers throats to turn a profit. Is it too much of a stretch to think that profit should be a result of quality products and services and differentiation instead of corporate deals that offer little or no advantage to the customer who is actually buying the product from the maker?
Because the profit margins are so low OEMs have to make up for it somewhere. And with the economy in the shape it's in people are looking for ways to save, whether by keeping the PC they have now or by buying a low cost PC.
Why not buy online vs a Box store? Compare Best Buy's customer service (eek) to Newegg's
Best Buy - only a few miles away, Newegg - I have no idea how far away. If I have a problem with an item I bought from Best Buy I can put it in my car and drive there to have them fix it. While I might have to wait a week, I did once when the motherboard in my HP PC died, there were other tymes I was able to take something home the same day fixed.
Now, when I get a new monitor I might buy from Newegg. However it will be a second monitor and I could get away without having it for a few days.
My guess is that number 4 is actually something like this: Bloatware makers whine to manufacturers about this, manufacturers require contracts with retailers stating that, if they perform bloatware removal services, they will pay a premium to distribute the manufacturer's PCs.
Then Best Buy can tell them to get lost. Other OEMS will happily take the space. Even if you're a large OEM you don't tell a large retailer like Best Buy what to do, not unless you want to see your sales drop.
By that stance, every retailer is responsible for every defect in the manufacturer's product, no matter what it may be. If I buy a new microwave from Wal-Mart, and it's nicked? Their fault!
The retailer is responsible, for 30 days. I bought a new DVD player from Best Buy and when it didn't work properly I returned it for a full refund. A couple of days later I got another one and it wouldn't connect to my TV, after I spent half hour or so talking to an employee about it, so I returned that one to Best Buy as well, also for a full refund. Before the 30 days are up it's the retailer's responsibility to return defective or marred items to their distributor or the manufacturer for credit, exchange, or refund.
I think we've also hit on one of the reasons Apple computers cost more than similar machines from Dell, HP, Lenovo, et al:
Have you compared prices of Macs to Windows PC in the last few years? The price of Macs are pretty comparable to the price of PC with comparable configurations. Unfortunately you can't start with a PC and configure a Mac to the same specs though, you have to start with a Mac then configure the PC. I did that before I got the Macbook Pro I'm typing this on. I tried out a few PC OEMs and a Dell with similar specs cost $200 more and an HP cost about the same. I don't recall the other prices but they were about the same or more. Another unfortunate thing is that you won't find a low priced Mac that is expandable. The only Macs that are expandable are the Mac Pros and the XServers. Even their prices are comparable though.
320GB SATA 3.0Gb/s,7200 RPM Hard Drive with 8MB DataBurst Cache
256MB PCIe x16 nVidia NVS 290, Dual Monitor DVI Capable
16X DVD+/-RW
Dell USB 2-Button Mechanical Mouse with Scroll
USB Entry Quietkey, No Hot Keys
Genuine Windows Vista® Business Bonus-Windows® XP Professional loaded
Price = $4,173 (with $150 instant savings)
The Dell cost almost $1000 more, and the Mac comes with a 10 client OS whereas I don't see a server OS available for the Dell, unless that version of Vista is a server version. Everything else I got as close to being comparable as I could.
Ok answer this then, exactly what question does ID try to answer? Is it testable and falsifiable?
It's exactly as I already stated.
It is possible to scientifically detect and study evidence of design.
It is possible that such evidence exists in the natural world.
So the question is as claim #2 states: "Is there evidence of design in the natural world?" I don't think you can deny that this is testable and falsifiable, since then you would have to reject claim #1.
I do deny 2 is testable and falsifiable, as I deny 1. Just as creationists and IDers say about dinosaur fossils, that the dinosaurs were wiped out in Noah's great flood, they can say whatever results of any test as just God testing, and how can you test whether there's an intelligent designer. Heck a Christian amusement park has humans and dinos living side by side, the Creation Museum in Northern Kentucky.
The last tyme I had hardware die on me was a year ago. I only had the PC 10 months when it started acting up. So I took it down to the store for service. They told me the motherboard died and had to be replaced. That was the third PC the mobo had to be replaced on a new PC within a year of buying new. Of 4 PCs I bought new only one didn't have hardware problems in the first year.
Reusing my case and pc P&C 750W psu saves me real $
Before I got that last PC I checked into upgrading the components on the PC I had then, and the new one cost less than upgrading the old one would have cost. The new one came with Linux preinstalled and without the Microsoft tax cost $250. A new mobo and CPU cost just about as much. Now it only came with a 40GB hdd and 256MB RAM, so I bought 1GB of RAM for $100 and added a 750GB hdd as a second drive for $300. Even after buying more RAM and a bigger hdd it was still cheaper than upgrading my old PC.
it's simple enough for someone who knows what they're doing to just reformat the computer with a fresh install of their OS of choice
Ah, that's the key, knowing how to reformat and install an OS. Not many know how, heck when people buy a PC from Best Buy they can have software installed for them right there. I bet other big box chains also will install software for people.
They're all surprised when they find out it's not rocket science, and they end up with a better pc than they'd get at Best Buy for a fraction of the cost, custom built to their needs and sans bloatware.
Where are these parts coming from? The last tyme I checked prices in all the local stores I knew of, it was cheaper to buy a prebuilt PC than build my own. And the reason I looked in stores in my area is because of something is wrong I want to be able to go to the store and get an exchange quickly, I don't want to wait days if not a week. So ordering from Newegg is out.
I'd rather build my own, but because of today's prices unless I had specific hardware requirements, I'd just buy a prebuilt system.
You're right in that I'm willing to sacrifice convenience for freedom, but I don't pay to have bloatware removed. I'm a Mac user.
What, you didn't get any bloatware installed on your Mac? I'm typing this on my Macbook Pro, and while I wouldn't exactly call all of them bloatware there are a number of programs installed I don't want. The first, which is bloatware, is MS Office 2004 for Mac Test Drive. Most of the iApps I don't use either, though I admit many others do. Aperture is there along with GarageBand. I might of tried Aperture, I'm a photographer, but I'm afraid it's trialware. But I don't work with music so GarageBand isn't something I need.
And this is what bigotry is like, right here. There's the slur. Then there's the false accusation of force and the invention of vaguely-defined victims.
No, what is bigotry is having a public school teacher forcibly apply a ruler to a student's hand or arm when they do not say "under god" when they recite the Pledge of Alliance.
Now, that one would be interesting to try to enforce;-)
Well, the teaching of evolution. That's what the Scopes Trial in 1925 was all about. Tennessee passed a law outlawing the teaching of evolution in state-funded educational establishments. A high school teacher, John Scopes, did precisely that, taught evolution in his class and he was charged and put on trial for that.
I got a Macbook Pro 12 months ago. At the tyme I was thinking of installing Ubuntu on it as a dualboot but after thinking about a while I decided not to. I can do almost everything on it now as I could with Ubuntu. I have X11 installed along with MacPort which allows me to install RPMs and Fink which installs apt-get and.deb packages.
Slashdot Mirror
I have already answered you on your original thread,
And you have said Macs are not cheaper so I showed you a Mac can be cheaper.
Falcon
OS X doesn't get you as good an OS as FreeBSD
OS X is FreeBDS underneath. I have X11 installed. I also have Fink to install Debian packages dpkg and apt-get as well as MacPorts which installs rpm packages.
it gets you a WAY better OS than Vista, and WAY more software than any free UNIX.
Of the unices (unixes), OS X, and Windows you get the most from OS X. You can install Unix and Windows software as well as OS X software. With Unix you get Unix and Windows software but not OS X software. The same with Windows. If that's not enough you can actually run all three OSes on a Mac.
Falcon
I agree on the test drive, but the iApps are probably one of the reasons people buy Mac's iTunes for music, iPhoto for organizing your pictures and iWeb to put it all online in a way that even my parents can understand without too much hassle.
Yea, that's why I said though I don't others want the iApps. I don't have any music, other than what the Mac came with or were embedded in websites I visited. I haven't intentionally downloaded, legally or not any music. Nor have I mounted a music CD in the drive. So I don't use iTunes. For photography I have saved some photos I found online and I have some cds of photos,which I haven't transferred to my Mac yet. When I finally do I may use Aperture but I won't use iPhoto. For websites I use a text editor. I recently got a new scanner which came with Photoshop Elements which I can, may, use to edit my photos for the web.
Interestingly enough, if you install the OS you don't get the iApps by default
Interesting, I had to install thinks like X11 and XCode. Because they are specialized software I'd expect to have to install those, but not the iApps. For those I'd expect to be installed by default.
Falcon
Jesus christ, who can afford either machine to begin with?
Yea, I wish I could. Hopefully RSN I'll start my business then in a year be able to afford one.
I'm just going to stick with my £399 laptop which costs the same price of a low end Mac mini, while it handles games better than the Macbook and MacBook pro.
I don't play games but I do plan on using my Macbook Pro for photography. Actually because it isn't as high res as I'd like in two or three months I want to buy the one with higher res. Then I'd put this one on eBay.
Falcon
Macs are certainly affordable now, but you seriously cannot tell me Macs are cheaper.
Before I got my Macbook Pro I compared it's price to similarly configured Windows laptops. A Dell was $200 more than the Mac and other laptops were about the same price. Not one of them was more than $100 less than my Mac. Here's a comparison of the costs of a Mac and a Dell, the specs are almost the same but the Dell is almost $1000 more. Don't tell me Macs are more expensive.
Falcon
Of course the purely naturalistic zealots will have none of that and will summarily dismiss any such nuggets of evidence.
Just as Creationists do now with evolution?
That is why we need to show the evidence as it really is
I have never seen any evidence for a creator/designer that can't also have another explanation.
and teach critical thinking skills.
Oh, I agree but Creationists/IDers only take things on faith. I don't know how many tymes I've heard, probably thousands, "because it says it in the Bible".
Falcon
A couple of times I followed orders and almost got court marshaled for doing so. I was lucky as my boss was a civilian and he stuck up for me (he was a GS-15).
I too was lucky at my first post. For some reason the captain of my company liked me. He frequently asked me if I wanted to go to this school or that school. One school I particularly liked was for Explosive Ordinance Disposal, EOD. He then made me one of the EOD experts for the unit. The last school he put me in for was Warrant Officer Flight School to learn to fly helicopters. A couple of months later I got orders to go overseas and asked him about it. He said orders to go overseas almost always cancels other orders. I was so disappointed, as I wanted and still do want to get my pilot's license. It also would have given me more tyme to take college classes, that's why I went into the Army, to save money for college. Once I served my tyme I could have piloted helicopters while attending college, I wanted get my PhD and be a Computer Engineer.
Falcon
I bought a Thinkpad T61 a year ago, to find out that it was chock full of crapware.
Fortunately the only crapware I got on my new Macbook Pro a year ago was Office 2004 for Mac Test Drive.
Falcon
There is definitely something wrong when laptop or PC manufacturers depend on shoving crap down customers throats to turn a profit. Is it too much of a stretch to think that profit should be a result of quality products and services and differentiation instead of corporate deals that offer little or no advantage to the customer who is actually buying the product from the maker?
Because the profit margins are so low OEMs have to make up for it somewhere. And with the economy in the shape it's in people are looking for ways to save, whether by keeping the PC they have now or by buying a low cost PC.
Falcon
Why not buy online vs a Box store? Compare Best Buy's customer service (eek) to Newegg's
Best Buy - only a few miles away, Newegg - I have no idea how far away. If I have a problem with an item I bought from Best Buy I can put it in my car and drive there to have them fix it. While I might have to wait a week, I did once when the motherboard in my HP PC died, there were other tymes I was able to take something home the same day fixed.
Now, when I get a new monitor I might buy from Newegg. However it will be a second monitor and I could get away without having it for a few days.
Falcon
My guess is that number 4 is actually something like this: Bloatware makers whine to manufacturers about this, manufacturers require contracts with retailers stating that, if they perform bloatware removal services, they will pay a premium to distribute the manufacturer's PCs.
Then Best Buy can tell them to get lost. Other OEMS will happily take the space. Even if you're a large OEM you don't tell a large retailer like Best Buy what to do, not unless you want to see your sales drop.
Falcon
By that stance, every retailer is responsible for every defect in the manufacturer's product, no matter what it may be. If I buy a new microwave from Wal-Mart, and it's nicked? Their fault!
The retailer is responsible, for 30 days. I bought a new DVD player from Best Buy and when it didn't work properly I returned it for a full refund. A couple of days later I got another one and it wouldn't connect to my TV, after I spent half hour or so talking to an employee about it, so I returned that one to Best Buy as well, also for a full refund. Before the 30 days are up it's the retailer's responsibility to return defective or marred items to their distributor or the manufacturer for credit, exchange, or refund.
Falcon
Sorry, the difference between Macs and PCs in price is too great to be just subsidized by this extra software.
Sorry, check out the difference in prices between a Dell and a Mac, the Dell is almost $1000 more.
Falcon
I think we've also hit on one of the reasons Apple computers cost more than similar machines from Dell, HP, Lenovo, et al:
Have you compared prices of Macs to Windows PC in the last few years? The price of Macs are pretty comparable to the price of PC with comparable configurations. Unfortunately you can't start with a PC and configure a Mac to the same specs though, you have to start with a Mac then configure the PC. I did that before I got the Macbook Pro I'm typing this on. I tried out a few PC OEMs and a Dell with similar specs cost $200 more and an HP cost about the same. I don't recall the other prices but they were about the same or more. Another unfortunate thing is that you won't find a low priced Mac that is expandable. The only Macs that are expandable are the Mac Pros and the XServers. Even their prices are comparable though.
Mac Pro
Price = $3,298.00
Dell Prescision T7400
Price = $4,173 (with $150 instant savings)
The Dell cost almost $1000 more, and the Mac comes with a 10 client OS whereas I don't see a server OS available for the Dell, unless that version of Vista is a server version. Everything else I got as close to being comparable as I could.
Falcon
Ok answer this then, exactly what question does ID try to answer? Is it testable and falsifiable?
It's exactly as I already stated.
So the question is as claim #2 states: "Is there evidence of design in the natural world?" I don't think you can deny that this is testable and falsifiable, since then you would have to reject claim #1.
I do deny 2 is testable and falsifiable, as I deny 1. Just as creationists and IDers say about dinosaur fossils, that the dinosaurs were wiped out in Noah's great flood, they can say whatever results of any test as just God testing, and how can you test whether there's an intelligent designer. Heck a Christian amusement park has humans and dinos living side by side, the Creation Museum in Northern Kentucky.
Falcon
The last tyme I had hardware die on me was a year ago. I only had the PC 10 months when it started acting up. So I took it down to the store for service. They told me the motherboard died and had to be replaced. That was the third PC the mobo had to be replaced on a new PC within a year of buying new. Of 4 PCs I bought new only one didn't have hardware problems in the first year.
Reusing my case and pc P&C 750W psu saves me real $
Before I got that last PC I checked into upgrading the components on the PC I had then, and the new one cost less than upgrading the old one would have cost. The new one came with Linux preinstalled and without the Microsoft tax cost $250. A new mobo and CPU cost just about as much. Now it only came with a 40GB hdd and 256MB RAM, so I bought 1GB of RAM for $100 and added a 750GB hdd as a second drive for $300. Even after buying more RAM and a bigger hdd it was still cheaper than upgrading my old PC.
Falcon
it's simple enough for someone who knows what they're doing to just reformat the computer with a fresh install of their OS of choice
Ah, that's the key, knowing how to reformat and install an OS. Not many know how, heck when people buy a PC from Best Buy they can have software installed for them right there. I bet other big box chains also will install software for people.
Falcon
They're all surprised when they find out it's not rocket science, and they end up with a better pc than they'd get at Best Buy for a fraction of the cost, custom built to their needs and sans bloatware.
Where are these parts coming from? The last tyme I checked prices in all the local stores I knew of, it was cheaper to buy a prebuilt PC than build my own. And the reason I looked in stores in my area is because of something is wrong I want to be able to go to the store and get an exchange quickly, I don't want to wait days if not a week. So ordering from Newegg is out.
I'd rather build my own, but because of today's prices unless I had specific hardware requirements, I'd just buy a prebuilt system.
Falcon
You're right in that I'm willing to sacrifice convenience for freedom, but I don't pay to have bloatware removed. I'm a Mac user.
What, you didn't get any bloatware installed on your Mac? I'm typing this on my Macbook Pro, and while I wouldn't exactly call all of them bloatware there are a number of programs installed I don't want. The first, which is bloatware, is MS Office 2004 for Mac Test Drive. Most of the iApps I don't use either, though I admit many others do. Aperture is there along with GarageBand. I might of tried Aperture, I'm a photographer, but I'm afraid it's trialware. But I don't work with music so GarageBand isn't something I need.
Falcon
The argument is about none of those things; it is about the validity of a concept.
Ok answer this then, exactly what question does ID try to answer? Is it testable and falsifiable?
Falcon
And this is what bigotry is like, right here. There's the slur. Then there's the false accusation of force and the invention of vaguely-defined victims.
No, what is bigotry is having a public school teacher forcibly apply a ruler to a student's hand or arm when they do not say "under god" when they recite the Pledge of Alliance.
Falcon
Now, that one would be interesting to try to enforce ;-)
Well, the teaching of evolution. That's what the Scopes Trial in 1925 was all about. Tennessee passed a law outlawing the teaching of evolution in state-funded educational establishments. A high school teacher, John Scopes, did precisely that, taught evolution in his class and he was charged and put on trial for that.
Falcon
Format, re-install, dual-boot XP/Linux.
I got a Macbook Pro 12 months ago. At the tyme I was thinking of installing Ubuntu on it as a dualboot but after thinking about a while I decided not to. I can do almost everything on it now as I could with Ubuntu. I have X11 installed along with MacPort which allows me to install RPMs and Fink which installs apt-get and .deb packages.
Falcon
If you have an ugly stewardess, you still get your midflight cheapo pretzel and 1/2 can of coke.
Some airlines now charge for those.
Falcon
And what are IDers investigating, what experiments do they conduct? All ID is is an attempt to make creationism look like science.
Falcon