> I clearly stated that the US Constitution doesn't restrict an individuals rights. Correct, the constitution limits the governments rights to infringe upon its citizens. > I never said that it doesn't restrict governmental rights. Which is, in fact, what it does; very precisely. > In fact I stated that's exactly one of its purposes.
> As I said before, the US Constitution mentions NOTHING about drinking/smoking ages, bank > robbery, forgery, murder, etc.
From my POV, the modern function of the State is to undermine the constitution whereever possible in order to give the government more power over its citizens. I believe that it is possible to prove that, both on State and Federal levels, those elected do not act in compliance w/the electorate as much as for moneyed interests. And, it is these governments, our 'elected' leaders, who use threats to public saftey in order to legislate things like "drinking/smoking ages", or helmet laws, or anything else that a) does not in and of itself infringing on another's liberties while b) infringing on our own.
> By your twisted logic, the fact that these things aren't > mentioned means they're rights afforded to every citizen in the US. Perhaps they should be! Perhaps emphasis should be re-placed on people taking ownership and responsibility for their actions and the 'direct' consequences their behaviors have on others. But if so, then forgo 'thought crimes' and 'potential' harm and the endless permutations of what if's and stick to the real and actual.
Certainly robbery, murder, extortion, graft, etc.. are just that - crimes. Someone else has been directly harmed as a result of one's actions and the perp should be held accountable. That is what the function of the police is supposed to be. Not to enforce laws that criminalize people for behavior that has no 'direct' consequence of injury to others.
Driving drunk? So what. So many people are driving/living under the influence of something that alcohol is only one of the usual suspects. So what if you cross the line, or weave. That, in and of itself, should not be breaking any laws and the cop who spots you should be comming to your assistance, not to arrest you. OTOH, if you cause injury or property damage then you should pay, and pay some more. Maybe you lose your ability to drive for 10 years, or forever. If the consequences of the actual damage are great enough then we don't need laws that create percieved damages for which we are penalized. I speed, yes, I am a speeder. Not always, but I drive over the limits every day. I also have not had an accident ever. There are no dents or dings on my car. Speed limits create a perception of mitigating damages, but in fact do not. I dislike wearing a helmet when on my bike. I dont have accidents and even if i did, the likelihood of the helmet protecting me is dubious.
By today's measure, personal ownership of one's actions and accountability for same has become
a quaint notion as the State co-opts more control over peoples' lives. And, from the LEA perspective, the power of control we've given them has just created an
'us vs. them' mentality which translates into 'management issues'; looking upon citizens as something with distain.
The legal system heavily reinforces this. The police were not meant to be our governors; and before extolling the notion that we are a 'nation of laws' it would behoove one to ask who those laws serve.
Generally, I dont have anything against cops and would even buy a beer for some i've encountered. But I absolutely hate being put in an adversarial position (disadvantaged at that) with those to whom I should want to turn to in an emergency. Making cops into nannys and creating ever more laws for them to enforce has done this. It's reprehensible.
So, yes; in a twisted way, drinking laws, helmet laws, smoking laws, etc.. are a mechanism that dep
>Where I get concerned is if, as the submission mentions, is if the police, feds, etc. decide to start using this to track people randomly
There'll be nothing random about it. Its just another tool to control the populace that can be used in conjunction with TPMS; the cameras will be another way to track EVERYONE, in real-time.
FFS, smell the roses! NationalID, RFID, cameras everywhere, datamining and DPI, overhead syping, COFEE, the erosion of Habeas Corpus and Posse Comitatus, "Fusion Centers" popping up like mushrooms in cowpies...
Where do you think "smart cameras for cops" fits into that equation? Ever since the police re-branded themselves "Public Safety Officers", their job has been to increasingly nanny-ify the masses. We gave them the power because "nobody would argue against more public safety".
But it's all a shakedown and a sham. Speeding tickets are a good example. Nearly everyone speeds, so its mostly a tax on heavy commuters who happen to be at the wrong place at the wrong time (the speedtrap). The safety police argue that speed kills - wrong! loss of control kills; at any speed. Speeding tickets enrich the State and the Insurance companies. More laws that give the police the authority to detain will, at the very least, increase their revenue stream and at the very worst infringe upon our rights to travel unhindered. (which is a human right - protecting our right to survive)
This is just another example of the camel getting its nose in our tent and us being to stupid to whack it the hell out before its sleeping in our beds.
It will be an autonomous system. The laptop will alert the cop, giving them pretextual authority to stop the vehicle; if they want to, otherwise the system will issue the registrant a citation directly from DMV central. This whole thing reeks of yet another shake-down designed to enrich the State.
Well, prior post stating NNPT removed from ISPs is the 1st target to killing Usenet; next they go after the NNTP providers themselves, futile as that may prove to be. Those core usenet providers should monitor only uploading trends from their subscribers. Not what or to where, only how much; then throttle the massive cross-posters and spammers. After all, for the 'average' user - how many posts can/do they make in a day? A hundred posts is pretty high, more than most would ever see, but far to few to spam anyplace successfully.
Those core usenet providers should only offer NNPTS in a show of solidarity to privacy-rights. This would address my real concern: that the LEA will monitor (DPI) usenet as a datamining strategem in combo w/already existing information (bank accts, phone records, etc.. ) to setup a profile that includes our tastes, since the groups we subscribe and post to most clearly reflects our personal interests.
Listen in on port 119 for all headers (incl sex and KP groups) and you have an instant mechanism to 'groupify' citizens into their respective 'threat levels'. Encryption would prevent that from happening.
Hiding behind AC skirts, you know Gore won regardless, and the tired, spoiler, argument is getting moldy. And, considering RN has done more than AG has ever done, RN would still have been the better president and he would also have kept us out of Iraq plus a whole lot MORE to our benefit.
You're just ape'ing the talking heads. The election was stolen, thats the kind of corruption RN wants to fix. AG, for all his worth, is still a politico; maybe less of one now, but back in 2000 not. And the Dems are just as spineless now as then.
I find it slightly ironic that between this post and yesterdays' preceeding thread on the same subject there have been countless individuals writing to express their disappointment in government, the political duopoly that controls it; and, for many, their avowed independence of both.
Yet, for all the mention of BBarr/RPaul and the Libertarians (whom i generally respect) and a minor tip-o-the-hat to the greens; no one person has brought up the ghost in the machine: good old Ralph!, the great spoiler.
Allowing that his bombastic nature is derived from decades of outrage and trying to keep the smoke between his ears, this guy is the only one with a proven track record of both anti-corporatism, an uncanny ability to organize due to the inherent righteousness of his causes (i.e. public safety in the true sense, not more LEA legislation), and in his track record of getting those laws passed.
One need only look at the mines, the "dirty jobs" to see the impact of his efforts. And yet, even those people who have directly benefited from his labors (most all of us) write him off as some nutjob.
Is this because, as he alleges, the media and the duopoly have cast him into a black hole; successfully silencing him? Seems possible to me. But we here on/. are not unawares.
So why the absence of his name on the 'alternative' list?
i was going to refrain from posting to this thread until your post came up:
Banning human interest, in any form, is impossible. FWIW, producers are not, by and large, the distributors of most porn. LEA's cannot stop production of commercial KP because most of it is not as exploitative as it is profitable (even for the models) in the third world. And amateur KP is too prolific to hinder effectively.
Just like warez, there's the 'elites' and the lurkers/wannabees. Guess who always takes the hit? That's the low-hanging fruit the LEA goes after? Despite the FBI being integrated into the former USSR republics and their modest successes (i.e. LS-Models) at curtailing operations, well, 'where there's a will..."
The largest distributors, OTOH, are mostly amateurs who share and undermine the actual sales of the producers. They are traders, pure and simple. Not too unlike pirating music or software.
NNTP is their largest venue for doing that, despite the spam-load. I'm not to into KP, could care less about kids, but I liked keeping tabs on them for their ingenuity and prowess at staying one step ahead of the law. And they will continue to do that. These traders are not stupid and are technically very proficient.
I suppose LEA can DPI on port 119, until USENET providers start implementing 563 traffic, which will complicate their efforts. And when that becomes trackable, when the day when the Internet is cleaned up and all porn is banished, that will be the day when the BBS's of old re-surface, only this time using PPTP and VOIP, or something like it.
"Look, fundamentally I believe the Government that governs least governs best. And that Government usually is not the solution to the problem, but IS the problem."
Agreed. Governments in general do not reflect the will, or the needs, of the people whom they govern.
"The similarities between us are, I surmise, quite limited. Our stations in life came from different ends. And I look at what I have done - and those around me who also came from similar stations as mine - and see that the tyranny of "compassion" and the "War on Poverty" do much more harm - irreparable harm - to the poorest among us than having no such War to begin."
Our circumstances are more similar than you think. I have no disagreement on above. Govt programs, in and of themselves don't always benefit the people intended, but serve other agendas.
Few things for you to consider: the DOD budget is $480 billion [defenselink.mil] - see page 4 of that PDF. That's a fact. You can argue all you want, but you're wrong. We spend the same on education as we do on Defense - you've been brainwashed by all those "if only the DOD had to hold bake sales and the schools didn't!" bumperstickers. Defense is a Constitutional mandate, direct. Education? For the first 204 years of our country the Department of Education didn't even exist. How you can equate the two shows your disdain for the Constitution and formation of this country.
From wikipedia (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_States) "For 2007, the budget rose to US$439.3 billion.[1] This does not include many military-related items that are outside of the Defense Department budget, such as nuclear weapons research, maintenance and production (~$9.3 billion, which is in the Department of Energy budget), Veterans Affairs (~$33.2 billion) or the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (which are largely funded through extra-budgetary supplements, ~$170 billion in 2007).[2]"..."Altogether, military-related expenses totaled approximately $626.1 billion"
Despite defense being a "Constitutional mandate" spending more than almost all the world combined, (www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/01/02/military_spending/) spending on weapons that never see the light of day, but only provide jobs for some congress critters' district; building systems designed to only kill and selling/foisting them, as service-in-trade to prop up yet another authoritarian regime; yep we've become the world's largest merchant of death. That's something to be proud of! And for the first 204 years..... women and minorities couldnt get an education as school was predominantly the white-mans world. Times have, rightly, changed. I don't equate Military and Education. I only said we spend too much on defense and too little on schooling, both K-12 and collegiate. I suggested moving money from one arena to the other, that's all.
"Yes, those Hamptons folks. The vast majority of whom did not get their money from inheritance but from work and reward. The class envy you try to espouse in your pot-shots at their wealth is quite revealing." First, I don't envy them, I could care less. Whether they got if from "work and reward" or not is a matter of opinion or research; but by your logic the Mob, Enron, etc.. gets their $ from the same ethic, which does not account for honesty.
"How much should any one man make? Can you place a number on it? Do you realize that by simply placing that number you have, in effect, stated your own degree of socialism and fascism?" I dont recall placing 'that number' or any limit to wealth; despite my own belief that say, $million/year should be more than enough for anyone to live comfortably i would never support any entity that enforces an earning cap by law. Desire to possess is the realm of the religious. Your assertion is that nobody has the right to answer your question; that one has the right to make however much they can and want. Fine! As long as it is obtained
Well, lets start with the similiarities. Like you, catholic schools (alterboy, paper-route, boyscouts..) Worked through college, dropped out, tried corporate, returned to schooling, graduated, self-employed, modestly successful. Like you, I despise the misuse of my tax dollars and the seemingly endless parade of fees and surcharges that get attached to every bit of legislation/regulation created. Together, we are anti-government; but you somehow believe that government is not a reflection of push capitalism.
I guess that's where likeness ends, because it seems to me that the realities affect your world-view: => that multi-national corporations and privatization is a solution to government => that the masses of "lazy, uneducated, unable" who "decry their inability to gain position in life", somehow have ONLY themselves to blame and that, whether domestically or abroad, the forces of capitalism have nothing to do with it or their situation.
I am not a defeatist, and, on par, my railing that "the MAN is keeping me down" is no less than a reality than your saying the same; that the MAN of Government instead of Corporate is keeping you down with their left-leaning, mis-guided, ideologies.
I manage, I get by. I live with needs and not wants, credit-free. Our difference is that I don't see how placing the desire for individual freedom above social justice for all can create an environment that is blow-back free enough for all to prosper, or at least reach
one's potential, whatever that may be.
Your using the Declaration and the cry of Liberty becommes little more than a mask for your
own selfishness. It allows you believe that we all have a 'level playing field' from which to find
our station. That the poor schmuck born to a ghetto, or some 3rd world shithole, has potentially the same ability as you or I to get ahead.
There is an enormous difference between business and corporatism. Business in this country is almost exclusively small (under 5 million or 500 employees). Business, and enterprise, is a good thing. Business AS government is not. But that is what you would like to see. Privatization of the State, run under market-conditions; survival of the fittest in a game that's fixed from the start.
"Leftists see large corporations and unequal success as opponents and problems to be solved..." Only when one comes at the cost of the other "Rightists see both as results of Freedom and a Liberty." Sure, your freedoms and your liberties, not everyones' "Leftists decry the multinationals and their billions in profits;" Only when those profits come from gaming the system, at great human cost. In your world, it would be only right and natural to have slave labor building widgets, no safety standards... " Rightists celebrate the triumph of the many working for a common goal," Right, the many stockholders, the many who join up each saturday on the golf course. Self-interest is the driving force, of the corporation, of the Right and of you. By your own account, you see no obligation (aside from being an employer - fair or otherwise) to society at large.
"As far as education goes, you call for half the Defense budget for education. I say bravo! Let us implement that immediately!" 1st, the budget is far more than 480bl, but using your figures that would reduce my school tax burden by 1/2. Good News! Now lets get rid of pork, earmarks, waste, $500 hammers, and see how much more tax dollars can be re-claimed. 2/3rds of my State taxes toward education. I have no kids. If parents want 5 kids and want them schooled, let them pay for it accordingly; let them carpool or drive their kids to the main road for the schoolbus, or let them walk. They should subsidize more of their kids education as reflecting a choice they made. I agree the education system is screwed up. Not by the Left or Right, but by bureaurocracy (sp?) and the mediocracy (sp?) of t
What about a corporation, or corporations, that control a government? What about United Fruit and the banana republics, or Coca-cola and columbia, or Exxon-mobile and Nigeria? Though this thread happens to be US and 'western' centric, Corporations wed to government, albiet corrupted ones, are more the norm than the exception world over.
I am no fan of our current government, or of their self-serving interests. That said, the biggest beneficiary of their profits is not the government, its the executives, the board and their primary (instutitional) stockholders.
You seem to believe that corporations are over-taxed (the dollar earned vs $3 tax). So I assume that you dont believe in the inverse: that corps have been the beneficiary of tax-breaks that makes their tax burden pale by comparison?
I would also assume that you dont believe that the executives, boards and inst. stockholders have become experts at sheltering their money so as to avoid having to pay tax on their accumulated wealth; or the notion, in general, that the concentration of wealth in the hands of a few detract from the overall health of a nation in its ability to circulate that wealth and put it to better use?
I find it interesting that, up to this point in this discussion, your antipathy towards government is proportional to your favor of big business when in fact they are two sides of the same coin. They have become inseparably indistinguishable, which is the whole point of the this discussion and which establishes that facism is the marriage of transnational big business to government.
Right as you may be about Washington, you fail to see the other side of the equation
"I judge liberty and freedom by what you can do, not what you achieve. Achievement is dependent upon the individual; freedom is inherent and separate from individuals as it is the concept."
I cant believe that you can say above in one post and then spew your neo-con, warped libertarianism, in another. You must live in a bubble that protects you from the evils you so passionately rail against.
What you expouse basically favors the largest and most powerful, which, thru its greater resouces and economies of scale,
keep the small guy (e.g. you and me) DOWN! I say again: your earlier nonsense of "...the politicians of the right, who typically want as little State interference with companies as possible." as equating to the Right (read: Wall Street) being the standard-bearers of liberty is just plain false.
I respect libertarians, they are little more than anarchists in more respectable clothing; and the primary tenet of both is
"the human right of an individual to survive". But your belief that the corporate structure as being anything more than an elitist avenue for their accumulation of wealth at the expense of those whom they exploit is spurious.
Sure, it's one thing to believe in free-enterprise and initiative on the micro level of becoming successful. We all want a slice of that dream. But where did that go? A college education equates to entering the workforce under pressing debt, pensions for those who put in their 20-30 have evaporated, job-security has all but vanished,
home ownership is now (nearly) a lifetime mortgage. lack of health care has all but eliminated job mobility for most people.
Do you think this reality, combined with over a trillion in credit-card debt and a dollar worth about.04 is anything
but by design?
Where did our national wealth go?
And, FWIW, i would claim that the number of people who had a good/great idea and the motivation and skill to manifest it who got stopped in their tracks by those corps you hail, are legion. Look at how many automobiles have been proven to get >50, >100, Mpg. (look at the 'volt') Hell, look at the development of the internal combustion engine in relation to steam or electric. Corporations do not favor the 'better mouse trap', they oppose it. They only favor 'stability' and status-quo and making money for their boards and their bankers. That is the macro level you conveniently overlook. That is what translates into the "American Hypocracy" of singing the praises of democracy while propping up despots and tyrants the world over.
One need only look to south american history over the past 50 years, or colonialism over the past 200, to see the damages wreaked upon the world's masses by the industrialists and transnationals. Its that blowback that challenging us today with nearly insurmountable problems.
As to your current post in relation to counter-argument: "As far as education being a Federal duty, I'd heartily reject it. I believe most of the problems with the American education system arose after further Federalist intervention in the system. The issue is that we spend more and more with worse and worse "returns".
You're partial accuracy clouds the larger truth: a well-educated citizenry benefits the entire Nation but, as a priority, runs counter to the desires of the Establishment. It's not a federal duty, it should be a federal desire. Who knows where or from whom genius will prevail? The current system just wants good consumer/worker-bees and stamps them out in uniform, cookie-cutter, same-same likeness. The educational system is failing because the capitalist model is failing. Its more than funding as much as vision, but if 1/2 the dollars spent on defense were invested in education, better teachers and more resources; the product of that system would hold more promise for a solution to the issues that press upon us today.
"...will lead us to a world where an extremely small group of people control nearly all of the wealth."
Welcome to that world. LynnwoodRooster's attempts to cast the left as fascists and the right as freedom-fighters is a vainglorious way for those who've profited off the backs of the poor to justify the righteousness of their actions under the guise of keeping democracy safe. One could easily call the bluff to previous post's spurious assertion "I see a lot more calls for fascist behavior from the political leaders of the left than I do of the politicians of the right, who typically want as little State interference with companies as possible..." with the simple fact that administrations (like current 'right-wing' one) placing loyal wonks in high office (FEMA,FCC...) to undermine govt power and reduce said 'interference' either benefit the many, in which case poster is correct, or the few, proving him entirely wrong.
Considering the number of people who left their office under clouds of dishonor and for who's benefit they shilled, we know which way that ship sailed. Proof that corportatism == facism and right-wing conservatives are their beneficiaries. After all, arent they the party of the rich? Follow the money!
"is probably the best example of an inefficient poorly run organization that you can find." I think that should be reserved for the airlines, which actually receive far more in the way of bailouts and funding than rail ever did. In fact, if more public money was put into rail infrastructure as was into air travel, your complaints might not be as significant. Unfortunately, rail never had or will have the clout that Boeing, McDonnel-Douglas, GE, Northrup, et al carry in Washington, and doesnt factor into sellable defense contracts by same.
exactly, GWBOBL is a mutual dependency. And, possibly, allies in some sense that goes beyond sanity. Note that during the 80's the USA funded him, during the 90's did business with him, and after 9/11 GWB admin seeded to all OBL's demands. Our war on terror is aimed at minimizing the shia-iranian impact in the mid-east as a player of influence. Using OBL to further that goal is why he's never been persued, even been allowed to escape capture. This whole OBL, most-wanted.... is a ruse of the highest proportion. OBL is tightly in the fold of the bin laden family, which is in the good graces of the Bush dynasty and its cohorts. Sad
Back to the NASA, manned explorations thread for a moment: I fail to understand how, with our country so deeply in debt, our economy in shambles, our environment in distress, our education and health/welfare system in disarray, etc... how we should justify the enormous costs of sending a few to a place that will have no discernable value for the forseeable future. Unless, following the/. threads of NASA pushing the dominance of space theme, its all a budgetary cover for more defence contracts, which is just as damning.
Not to mention that the neocons who pull the strings today are the very same who set the Regan policies of yesteryear, (Cheney, Rumsfield, et al); even to the dirty tricks that won them the election (back-channel deal w/iran pre-election)
Dont get caught up in your grandfather's mythology! It was their generation that also perpetuated those policies that have put us where we are today.
The boomers ended the vietnam war, pushed civil rights thru legislation, oh WTF, the list goes on an on. Boomers were not in political power in the 70's (war on drugs), or in the 80's of 'Reganomics', iran-contra, S-n-L scandal, etc... It was your grand-parents generation that was calling the shots, not mine.
Look who maintains true power today, the boards of the Carlyle Group, the Banks, the Investment houses: all 70-somethings who, if not of the WWII generation, were certainly not boomers.
Yes, boomers were raised self-indulgent, not too unlike the 'millenials' or the gen-X'ers today. But they were also the ones who heeded the call of "ask not..." while clinging to the idealistic notion that they could make the world a better place.
I take exception, like the previous respondent, I want you to know that baby boomers comprised nearly 30 million people, of which the majority were and still are mindless savants of the System.
That said, the smaller minority of boomers, like myself, were and still are the most active participants in the trenches of the anti-establishment, anti-corporate movement; whether it be in the streets or in unions or typing into some blog in the remote hills of vermont. Those 'boomers' who discovered, 40 years ago,
painfully and at personal cost, how untrustworthy and mendacious the system is: the military, the government it serves and the corporations/banks our leaders suck up to, remain faithfully in the trenches of radical activism.
FWIW, speeding is a [b]factor[/b] related to accidents, but not necessarily a cause. Not paying attention is the cause of accidents, speeding may just compound the problem.
This is a 'complex' issue, as in the burgeoning "Informational Industrial Complex". I doubt this initiative is anything more than the USAF getting in on the action on behalf of its retired staff currently employed by contractors. Considering that fully 2/3's of all $ spent by the taxpayer on defense never sees the light of day, this would be just another example of job creation and enriching a few people at the top of the economic food chain.
Interesting factoid, considering pallen's connection to M$ in conjunction w/last month's networkworld report www.networkworld.com/news/2008/043008-microsoft-helps-law-enforcement-get.html?fsrc=rss-security to quote: Microsoft helps law enforcement get around encryption By Nancy Gohring , IDG News Service , 04/30/2008....has led Microsoft to develop a set of tools that law enforcement agents can use to get around the software, executives at the company said.....Microsoft first released the toolset, called the Computer Online Forensic Evidence Extractor (COFEE), to law enforcement last June and it's now being used by about 2,000 agents around the world, said Anthony Fung, senior regional manager for Asia Pacific in Microsoft's Internet Safety and Anti-Counterfeiting group.
So, is it possible that microsofts foray into the 'information industrial complex' trough is to 'reachout' to the ISP's w/a DPI solution owned by them via a proxy that adds COFEE as a bag on the side but through which LEA gets to peek into the business of the ISP clients (you-n-me-n-everyone-else)
I guess microsoft would become the darth vadar of the evil empire!
"The sad fact is that Linux+GNU+X11+GTK etc. makes an awful platform on a PC with minimal resources, and everything running on top of it suffers as well."
Well, i've got DSL-n running off a USBstick on a little Epia box (L,G,X,Gtk) and it does everything quite nicely and looks great! Even runs enlightenment.
Good job. You'd think if you can do it, then why cant ubuntu just provide a stripped-down WM that's sugar-ish, engineer a deal w/adobe for an XO flash EULA, and bring the XO back into the linux fold?
Then the kids (or any age) could choose between WM's as they see fit!
What about a tomato w/a fish gene? If humankind is capable of mucking w/the blueprints of life, why is it so much of a stretch to think that a higher life form isn't doing it as well?
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> I clearly stated that the US Constitution doesn't restrict an individuals rights.
Correct, the constitution limits the governments rights to infringe upon its citizens.
> I never said that it doesn't restrict governmental rights.
Which is, in fact, what it does; very precisely.
> In fact I stated that's exactly one of its purposes.
> As I said before, the US Constitution mentions NOTHING about drinking/smoking ages, bank
> robbery, forgery, murder, etc.
From my POV, the modern function of the State is to undermine the constitution whereever
possible in order to give the government more power over its citizens.
I believe that it is possible to prove that, both on State and Federal levels, those
elected do not act in compliance w/the electorate as much as for moneyed interests.
And, it is these governments, our 'elected' leaders, who use threats to public saftey
in order to legislate things like "drinking/smoking ages", or helmet laws, or anything
else that a) does not in and of itself infringing on another's liberties while b) infringing
on our own.
> By your twisted logic, the fact that these things aren't
> mentioned means they're rights afforded to every citizen in the US.
Perhaps they should be! Perhaps emphasis should be re-placed on people taking ownership and
responsibility for their actions and the 'direct' consequences their behaviors have on others.
But if so, then forgo 'thought crimes' and 'potential' harm and the endless permutations of
what if's and stick to the real and actual.
Certainly robbery, murder, extortion, graft, etc.. are just that - crimes. Someone else has been
directly harmed as a result of one's actions and the perp should be
held accountable. That is what the function of the police is supposed to be. Not to enforce
laws that criminalize people for behavior that has no 'direct' consequence of injury to others.
Driving drunk? So what. So many people are driving/living under the influence of something
that alcohol is only one of the usual suspects. So what if you cross the line, or weave.
That, in and of itself, should not be breaking any laws and the cop who spots you should be
comming to your assistance, not to arrest you. OTOH, if you cause injury or property damage
then you should pay, and pay some more. Maybe you lose your ability to drive for 10 years, or
forever.
If the consequences of the actual damage are great enough then we don't need laws that create
percieved damages for which we are penalized. I speed, yes, I am a speeder. Not always, but
I drive over the limits every day. I also have not had an accident ever. There are no dents
or dings on my car. Speed limits create a perception of mitigating damages, but in fact
do not. I dislike wearing a helmet when on my bike. I dont have accidents and even if i did,
the likelihood of the helmet protecting me is dubious.
By today's measure, personal ownership of one's actions and accountability for same has become
a quaint notion as the State co-opts more control over peoples' lives.
And, from the LEA perspective, the power of control we've given them has just created an
'us vs. them' mentality which translates into 'management issues'; looking upon citizens as something with distain.
The legal system heavily reinforces this. The police were not meant to be our governors; and
before extolling the notion that we are a 'nation of laws' it would behoove one to ask who those
laws serve.
Generally, I dont have anything against cops and would even buy a beer for some i've encountered.
But I absolutely hate being put in an adversarial position (disadvantaged at that) with those
to whom I should want to turn to in an emergency. Making cops into nannys and creating ever
more laws for them to enforce has done this. It's reprehensible.
So, yes; in a twisted way, drinking laws, helmet laws, smoking laws, etc.. are a mechanism
that dep
>Where I get concerned is if, as the submission mentions, is if the police, feds, etc. decide to start using this to track people randomly
There'll be nothing random about it. Its just another tool to control the populace that can be used in conjunction with TPMS; the cameras will be another way to track EVERYONE, in real-time.
"Beginning last September, all vehicles sold in the US
have been required to have Tire Pressure Monitoring System (TPMS)
installed.
http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/04/01/205203
FFS, smell the roses! NationalID, RFID, cameras everywhere, datamining and DPI, overhead syping, COFEE, the erosion of Habeas Corpus and Posse Comitatus, "Fusion Centers" popping up like ...
mushrooms in cowpies
Where do you think "smart cameras for cops" fits into that equation?
Ever since the police re-branded themselves "Public Safety Officers", their job has been
to increasingly nanny-ify the masses. We gave them the power because "nobody would argue
against more public safety".
But it's all a shakedown and a sham. Speeding tickets are a good example. Nearly everyone
speeds, so its mostly a tax on heavy commuters who happen to be at the wrong place at the
wrong time (the speedtrap). The safety police argue that speed kills - wrong! loss of
control kills; at any speed. Speeding tickets enrich the State and the Insurance companies.
More laws that give the police the authority to detain will, at the very least, increase
their revenue stream and at the very worst infringe upon our rights to travel unhindered.
(which is a human right - protecting our right to survive)
This is just another example of the camel getting its nose in our tent and us being to
stupid to whack it the hell out before its sleeping in our beds.
It will be an autonomous system. The laptop will alert the cop, giving them pretextual authority to stop the vehicle; if they want to, otherwise the system will issue the registrant a citation directly from DMV central. This whole thing reeks of yet another shake-down designed to enrich the State.
Well, prior post stating NNPT removed from ISPs is the 1st target to killing Usenet; next they go after the NNTP providers themselves, futile as that may prove to be.
Those core usenet providers should monitor only uploading trends from their subscribers. Not what or to where, only how much; then
throttle the massive cross-posters and spammers. After all, for the
'average' user - how many posts can/do they make in a day?
A hundred posts is pretty high, more than most would ever see, but far to few to spam anyplace successfully.
Those core usenet providers should only offer NNPTS in a show of solidarity to privacy-rights. This would address my real concern: that the LEA will monitor (DPI) usenet as a datamining strategem in combo w/already existing information (bank accts, phone records, etc.. ) to setup a profile that includes our tastes, since the groups we subscribe and post to most clearly reflects our personal interests.
Listen in on port 119 for all headers (incl sex and KP groups) and you have an instant mechanism to 'groupify' citizens into their respective 'threat levels'. Encryption would prevent that from happening.
just my .02
Hiding behind AC skirts, you know Gore won regardless, and the tired, spoiler, argument is getting moldy. And, considering RN has done more than AG has ever done, RN would still have been the better president and he would also have kept us out of Iraq plus a whole lot MORE to our benefit.
You're just ape'ing the talking heads. The election was stolen, thats the kind
of corruption RN wants to fix. AG, for all his worth, is still a politico;
maybe less of one now, but back in 2000 not. And the Dems are just as
spineless now as then.
I find it slightly ironic that between this post and yesterdays' preceeding thread on the same subject there have been countless individuals writing to express their disappointment in government, the political duopoly that controls it; and, for many, their avowed independence of both.
Yet, for all the mention of BBarr/RPaul and the Libertarians (whom i generally respect) and a minor tip-o-the-hat to the greens; no one person
has brought up the ghost in the machine: good old Ralph!, the great
spoiler.
Allowing that his bombastic nature is derived from decades of outrage and
trying to keep the smoke between his ears, this guy is the only one
with a proven track record of both anti-corporatism, an uncanny ability
to organize due to the inherent righteousness of his causes
(i.e. public safety in the true sense, not more LEA legislation), and
in his track record of getting those laws passed.
One need only look at the mines, the "dirty jobs" to see the impact
of his efforts. And yet, even those people who have directly benefited
from his labors (most all of us) write him off as some nutjob.
Is this because, as he alleges, the media and the duopoly have /. are not unawares.
cast him into a black hole; successfully silencing him? Seems
possible to me. But we here on
So why the absence of his name on the 'alternative' list?
i was going to refrain from posting to this thread until your post
came up:
Banning human interest, in any form, is impossible. FWIW, producers are not, by and large, the distributors of most porn.
LEA's cannot stop production of commercial KP because most of it is not as exploitative as it is profitable (even for the models) in the third world. And amateur KP is too prolific to hinder effectively.
Just like warez, there's the 'elites' and the lurkers/wannabees. Guess who always takes the hit? That's the low-hanging fruit the LEA goes after? Despite the FBI being integrated into the former USSR republics and their modest successes (i.e. LS-Models) at curtailing operations, well, 'where there's a will..."
The largest distributors, OTOH, are mostly amateurs who share and undermine the actual sales of the producers. They are traders, pure and simple. Not too unlike pirating music or software.
NNTP is their largest venue for doing that, despite the spam-load.
I'm not to into KP, could care less about kids, but I liked keeping tabs on them for their ingenuity and prowess at staying one step ahead of the law. And they will continue to do that. These traders are not stupid and are technically very proficient.
I suppose LEA can DPI on port 119, until USENET providers start implementing 563 traffic, which will complicate their efforts. And when that becomes trackable, when the day when the Internet is cleaned up and all porn is banished, that will be the day when the BBS's of old re-surface, only this time using PPTP and VOIP, or something like it.
"Look, fundamentally I believe the Government that governs least governs best. And that Government usually is not the solution to the problem, but IS the problem."
Agreed. Governments in general do not reflect the will, or the needs, of the people whom they govern.
"The similarities between us are, I surmise, quite limited. Our stations in life came from different ends. And I look at what I have done - and those around me who also came from similar stations as mine - and see that the tyranny of "compassion" and the "War on Poverty" do much more harm - irreparable harm - to the poorest among us than having no such War to begin."
Our circumstances are more similar than you think. I have no disagreement on above.
Govt programs, in and of themselves don't always benefit the people intended, but serve other agendas.
Few things for you to consider: the DOD budget is $480 billion [defenselink.mil] - see page 4 of that PDF. That's a fact. You can argue all you want, but you're wrong. We spend the same on education as we do on Defense - you've been brainwashed by all those "if only the DOD had to hold bake sales and the schools didn't!" bumperstickers. Defense is a Constitutional mandate, direct. Education? For the first 204 years of our country the Department of Education didn't even exist. How you can equate the two shows your disdain for the Constitution and formation of this country.
From wikipedia (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_States)
"For 2007, the budget rose to US$439.3 billion.[1] This does not include many military-related items that are outside of the Defense Department budget, such as nuclear weapons research, maintenance and production (~$9.3 billion, which is in the Department of Energy budget), Veterans Affairs (~$33.2 billion) or the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (which are largely funded through extra-budgetary supplements, ~$170 billion in 2007).[2]"
Despite defense being a "Constitutional mandate" spending more than almost all the world combined,
(www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/01/02/military_spending/)
spending on weapons that never see the light of day, but only provide jobs for some congress critters'
district; building systems designed to only kill and selling/foisting them, as service-in-trade to
prop up yet another authoritarian regime; yep we've become the world's largest merchant of death.
That's something to be proud of! And for the first 204 years
an education as school was predominantly the white-mans world. Times have, rightly, changed.
I don't equate Military and Education. I only said we spend too much on defense and too little
on schooling, both K-12 and collegiate. I suggested moving money from one arena to the other,
that's all.
"Yes, those Hamptons folks. The vast majority of whom did not get their money from inheritance but from work and reward. The class envy you try to espouse in your pot-shots at their wealth is quite revealing."
First, I don't envy them, I could care less. Whether they got if from "work and reward" or not
is a matter of opinion or research; but by your logic the Mob, Enron, etc.. gets their $ from the same ethic,
which does not account for honesty.
"How much should any one man make? Can you place a number on it? Do you realize that by simply placing that number you have, in effect, stated your own degree of socialism and fascism?"
I dont recall placing 'that number' or any limit to wealth; despite my own belief that
say, $million/year should be more than enough for anyone to live comfortably i would never
support any entity that enforces an earning cap by law. Desire to possess is the realm of the religious.
Your assertion is that nobody has the right to answer your question;
that one has the right to make however much they can and want. Fine! As long as it is obtained
Well, lets start with the similiarities. Like you, catholic schools (alterboy, paper-route, boyscouts..)
Worked through college, dropped out, tried corporate, returned to schooling, graduated, self-employed,
modestly successful.
Like you, I despise the misuse of my tax dollars and the seemingly endless parade of fees and surcharges
that get attached to every bit of legislation/regulation created. Together, we are anti-government;
but you somehow believe that government is not a reflection of push capitalism.
I guess that's where likeness ends, because it seems to me that the realities affect your world-view:
=> that multi-national corporations and privatization is a solution to government
=> that the masses of "lazy, uneducated, unable" who "decry their inability to gain position in life",
somehow have ONLY themselves to blame and that, whether domestically or abroad, the forces of
capitalism have nothing to do with it or their situation.
I am not a defeatist, and, on par, my railing that "the MAN is keeping me down" is no less than
a reality than your saying the same; that the MAN of Government instead of Corporate is keeping you
down with their left-leaning, mis-guided, ideologies.
I manage, I get by. I live with needs and not wants, credit-free.
Our difference is that I don't see how placing the desire for individual freedom above social justice
for all can create an environment that is blow-back free enough for all to prosper, or at least reach
one's potential, whatever that may be.
Your using the Declaration and the cry of Liberty becommes little more than a mask for your
own selfishness. It allows you believe that we all have a 'level playing field' from which to find
our station. That the poor schmuck born to a ghetto, or some 3rd world shithole, has potentially
the same ability as you or I to get ahead.
There is an enormous difference between business and corporatism. Business in this country is almost
exclusively small (under 5 million or 500 employees). Business, and enterprise, is a good thing.
Business AS government is not. But that is what you would like to see. Privatization of the State,
run under market-conditions; survival of the fittest in a game that's fixed from the start.
"Leftists see large corporations and unequal success as opponents and problems to be solved..."
Only when one comes at the cost of the other
"Rightists see both as results of Freedom and a Liberty."
Sure, your freedoms and your liberties, not everyones'
"Leftists decry the multinationals and their billions in profits;"
Only when those profits come from gaming the system, at great human cost. In your world, it would
be only right and natural to have slave labor building widgets, no safety standards...
" Rightists celebrate the triumph of the many working for a common goal,"
Right, the many stockholders, the many who join up each saturday on the golf course.
Self-interest is the driving force, of the corporation, of the Right and of you. By your own
account, you see no obligation (aside from being an employer - fair or otherwise) to society at large.
"As far as education goes, you call for half the Defense budget for education. I say bravo! Let us implement that immediately!"
1st, the budget is far more than 480bl, but using your figures that would reduce my school tax burden
by 1/2. Good News! Now lets get rid of pork, earmarks, waste, $500 hammers, and see how much more
tax dollars can be re-claimed.
2/3rds of my State taxes toward education. I have no kids. If parents want 5 kids and want them schooled, let them pay for it accordingly; let them carpool or
drive their kids to the main road for the schoolbus, or let them walk.
They should subsidize more of their kids education as reflecting a choice they made.
I agree the education system is screwed up. Not by the Left or Right, but by bureaurocracy (sp?)
and the mediocracy (sp?) of t
What about a corporation, or corporations, that control a government? What about United Fruit and
the banana republics, or Coca-cola and columbia, or Exxon-mobile and Nigeria?
Though this thread happens to be US and 'western' centric,
Corporations wed to government, albiet corrupted ones, are more the norm than the exception world over.
I am no fan of our current government, or of their self-serving interests. That said, the biggest beneficiary
of their profits is not the government, its the executives, the board and their primary (instutitional) stockholders.
You seem to believe that corporations are over-taxed (the dollar earned vs $3 tax). So I assume that
you dont believe in the inverse: that corps have been the beneficiary of tax-breaks that makes their
tax burden pale by comparison?
I would also assume that you dont believe that the executives, boards and inst. stockholders have become
experts at sheltering their money so as to avoid having to pay tax on their accumulated wealth; or the
notion, in general, that the concentration of wealth in the hands of a few detract from the overall
health of a nation in its ability to circulate that wealth and put it to better use?
I find it interesting that, up to this point in this discussion, your antipathy towards government is
proportional to your favor of big business when in fact they are two sides of the same coin.
They have become inseparably indistinguishable, which is the whole point of the this discussion and
which establishes that facism is the marriage of transnational big business to government.
Right as you may be about Washington, you fail to see the other side of the equation
"I judge liberty and freedom by what you can do, not what you achieve. Achievement is dependent upon the individual; freedom is inherent and separate from individuals as it is the concept."
.04 is anything
I cant believe that you can say above in one post and then spew your neo-con, warped libertarianism,
in another. You must live in a bubble that protects you from the evils you so passionately rail against.
What you expouse basically favors the largest and most powerful, which, thru its greater resouces and economies of scale,
keep the small guy (e.g. you and me) DOWN! I say again: your earlier nonsense of
"...the politicians of the right, who typically want as little State interference with companies as possible."
as equating to the Right (read: Wall Street) being the standard-bearers of liberty is just plain false.
I respect libertarians, they are little more than anarchists in more respectable clothing; and the primary tenet of both is
"the human right of an individual to survive". But your belief that the corporate structure as being
anything more than an elitist avenue for their accumulation of wealth at the expense of those whom they exploit is spurious.
Sure, it's one thing to believe in free-enterprise and initiative on the micro level of becoming successful.
We all want a slice of that dream. But where did that go? A college education equates to entering the workforce
under pressing debt, pensions for those who put in their 20-30 have evaporated, job-security has all but vanished,
home ownership is now (nearly) a lifetime mortgage. lack of health care has all but eliminated job mobility for most people.
Do you think this reality, combined with over a trillion in credit-card debt and a dollar worth about
but by design?
Where did our national wealth go?
And, FWIW, i would claim that the number of people who had a good/great
idea and the motivation and skill to manifest it who got stopped in their tracks by those corps you
hail, are legion. Look at how many automobiles have been proven to get >50, >100, Mpg. (look at the 'volt')
Hell, look at the development of the internal combustion engine in relation to steam or electric.
Corporations do not favor the 'better mouse trap', they oppose it. They only favor 'stability' and
status-quo and making money for their boards and their bankers. That is the macro level you conveniently
overlook. That is what translates into the "American Hypocracy" of singing the praises of democracy while
propping up despots and tyrants the world over.
One need only look to south american history over the past 50 years, or colonialism over the past 200, to see the
damages wreaked upon the world's masses by the industrialists and transnationals. Its that blowback that
challenging us today with nearly insurmountable problems.
As to your current post in relation to counter-argument:
"As far as education being a Federal duty, I'd heartily reject it. I believe most of the problems with the American education system arose after further Federalist intervention in the system. The issue is that we spend more and more with worse and worse "returns".
You're partial accuracy clouds the larger truth: a well-educated citizenry benefits the entire Nation but, as a priority, runs counter to the desires of the Establishment. It's not a federal duty, it should be a federal desire. Who knows
where or from whom genius will prevail? The current system just wants good consumer/worker-bees and stamps them out in
uniform, cookie-cutter, same-same likeness. The educational system is failing because the capitalist model is
failing. Its more than funding as much as vision, but if 1/2 the dollars spent on defense were invested in
education, better teachers and more resources; the product of that system would hold more promise for a solution
to the issues that press upon us today.
If, as you claim, the
"...will lead us to a world where an extremely small group of people control nearly all of the wealth."
Welcome to that world. LynnwoodRooster's attempts to cast the left as fascists and the right as freedom-fighters is a vainglorious way for those who've profited off the backs of the poor to justify the righteousness of their actions under the guise of keeping democracy safe. One could easily call the bluff to previous post's spurious assertion "I see a lot more calls for fascist behavior from the political leaders of the left than I do of the politicians of the right, who typically want as little State interference with companies as possible..." with the simple fact that administrations (like current 'right-wing' one) placing loyal wonks in high office (FEMA,FCC...) to undermine govt power and reduce said 'interference' either benefit the many, in which case poster is correct, or the few, proving him entirely wrong.
Considering the number of people who left their office under clouds of dishonor and for who's benefit
they shilled, we know which way that ship sailed. Proof that corportatism == facism and right-wing
conservatives are their beneficiaries. After all, arent they the party of the rich? Follow the money!
"is probably the best example of an inefficient poorly run organization that you can find."
I think that should be reserved for the airlines, which actually receive far more in the
way of bailouts and funding than rail ever did. In fact, if more public money was put
into rail infrastructure as was into air travel, your complaints might not be as
significant. Unfortunately, rail never had or will have the clout that Boeing, McDonnel-Douglas,
GE, Northrup, et al carry in Washington, and doesnt factor into sellable defense contracts
by same.
exactly, GWBOBL is a mutual dependency. And, possibly, allies in some sense that goes beyond .... is a ruse of the highest proportion.
/. threads of NASA pushing the dominance of space theme,
sanity. Note that during the 80's the USA funded him, during the 90's did business with
him, and after 9/11 GWB admin seeded to all OBL's demands.
Our war on terror is aimed at minimizing the shia-iranian impact in the mid-east as a
player of influence. Using OBL to further that goal is why he's never been persued,
even been allowed to escape capture.
This whole OBL, most-wanted
OBL is tightly in the fold of the bin laden family, which is in the good graces of the
Bush dynasty and its cohorts. Sad
Back to the NASA, manned explorations thread for a moment:
I fail to understand how, with our country so deeply in debt, our economy in shambles,
our environment in distress, our education and health/welfare system in disarray,
etc... how we should justify the enormous costs of sending a few to a place that
will have no discernable value for the forseeable future.
Unless, following the
its all a budgetary cover for more defence contracts, which is just as damning.
Not to mention that the neocons who pull the strings today are the very same who
set the Regan policies of yesteryear, (Cheney, Rumsfield, et al); even to the
dirty tricks that won them the election (back-channel deal w/iran pre-election)
Dont get caught up in your grandfather's mythology! It was their generation that also perpetuated those policies that have put us where we are today.
The boomers ended the vietnam war, pushed civil rights thru legislation, oh WTF,
the list goes on an on.
Boomers were not in political power in the 70's (war on drugs), or in the
80's of 'Reganomics', iran-contra, S-n-L scandal, etc... It was your grand-parents generation that was calling the shots, not mine.
Look who maintains true power today, the boards of the Carlyle Group, the Banks,
the Investment houses: all 70-somethings who, if not of the WWII generation, were certainly not boomers.
Yes, boomers were raised self-indulgent, not too unlike the 'millenials' or
the gen-X'ers today. But they were also the ones who heeded the call of
"ask not..." while clinging to the idealistic notion that they could
make the world a better place.
I take exception, like the previous respondent, I want you to know that baby boomers comprised nearly 30 million people, of which the majority were and still are mindless savants of the System.
That said, the smaller minority of boomers, like myself, were and still are the most active participants in the trenches of the anti-establishment, anti-corporate movement; whether it be in the streets or in unions or typing into some blog in the remote hills of vermont. Those 'boomers' who discovered, 40 years ago,
painfully and at personal cost, how untrustworthy and mendacious the system is: the military, the government it serves and the corporations/banks our leaders suck up to, remain faithfully in the trenches of radical activism.
Unfortunately, you paint with too broad a brush:(
after reading 'Blowback' by Chalmers Johnson I would suggest going back to post WWII to find out why 'they dont like us'
"Speeding is a cause of accidents,"
FWIW, speeding is a [b]factor[/b] related to accidents, but not necessarily a cause.
Not paying attention is the cause of accidents, speeding may just compound the problem.
This is a 'complex' issue, as in the burgeoning "Informational Industrial Complex".
I doubt this initiative is anything more than the USAF getting in on the action
on behalf of its retired staff currently employed by contractors.
Considering that fully 2/3's of all $ spent by the taxpayer on defense never
sees the light of day, this would be just another example of job creation and
enriching a few people at the top of the economic food chain.
Interesting factoid, considering pallen's connection to M$ ....has led Microsoft to develop a set of tools that law enforcement agents can use to get around the software, executives at the company said. ....Microsoft first released the toolset, called the Computer Online Forensic Evidence Extractor (COFEE), to law enforcement last June and it's now being used by about 2,000 agents around the world, said Anthony Fung, senior regional manager for Asia Pacific in Microsoft's Internet Safety and Anti-Counterfeiting group.
in conjunction w/last month's networkworld report
www.networkworld.com/news/2008/043008-microsoft-helps-law-enforcement-get.html?fsrc=rss-security
to quote:
Microsoft helps law enforcement get around encryption
By Nancy Gohring , IDG News Service , 04/30/2008
So, is it possible that microsofts foray into the 'information industrial complex' trough is to 'reachout' to the ISP's w/a
DPI solution owned by them via a proxy that adds COFEE as a bag
on the side but through which LEA gets to peek into the business
of the ISP clients (you-n-me-n-everyone-else)
I guess microsoft would become the darth vadar of the evil empire!
"The sad fact is that Linux+GNU+X11+GTK etc. makes an awful platform on a PC with minimal resources, and everything running on top of it suffers as well."
Well, i've got DSL-n running off a USBstick on a little Epia box (L,G,X,Gtk) and it does everything quite nicely and looks great!
Even runs enlightenment.
I'll take your sucky platform over M$ anytime.
Good job. You'd think if you can do it, then why cant ubuntu just provide a stripped-down WM that's sugar-ish, engineer a deal w/adobe for an XO flash EULA, and bring the XO back into the linux fold?
Then the kids (or any age) could choose between WM's as they see fit!
What about a tomato w/a fish gene? If humankind is capable of mucking w/the blueprints of life, why is it so much of a stretch to think that a higher life form isn't doing it as well?