I picked your post for no good reason other than to say that (IMO) the media are mostly irrelevant. The only one's who 'get it' are those compelled to assemble (as it were); to be there. The cameras are for the voyeurs, whose mindsets will never change until they hear it from those they trust, not some talking head or forum debate.
My experience has shown me that mass protests and demonstrations affect only those who participate 1st-hand and those they know; parents, friends, sibs, loved ones,... who get their information 1st-hand and are shaken awake.
That's all it takes, really, for the numbers to grow, for protest to become demonstration, for governments and officials to be removed from power.
Thank-you for your participation. Don't forget to duck!
Hi: I find it interesting, ironic really, that you would take the time to correct prior poster of the pre-conceptions; while at the same time perpetuate the stereotype of the poor Anarchist.
"Anarchists are just guys out to riot".. The simplicity of your short shrift is a sad tell of a prior movement (about a century ago) that suffered the same propagandized fate as those trying to spin OWS.
If you don't know about the American Anarchist Movement, the strong belief in no leaders, in sociocracy, in one's inherent right to survive; then may I suggest you acquaint yourself with its' history. Because today's anarchists are the ones with the most arguments WRT fundamental change.
The fact that sometimes it takes a riot (a la koreans or poles - a willingness for confrontation) should not diminish the fact that most anarchists are non-violent and seek peaceful change. Ah, though, to be young and full-o-piss and really pissed off!
Don't get me wrong; because I agree with almost everything in your comment. But it occurs to me that the word "freedom", as it applies to the marketplace, is misplaced. If it applied to travel, getting somewhere unhindered, it would be easy to define. But freedom as it pertains to the market, to me, signifies more a darwinian freedom, to eat or be eaten; to fight or take flight. The converse would be to be protected, where the marketplace is a preservation and weaker species (smaller.biz, the commonweal,...) are watched over by wardens as protectors of the weak. This would be enlightened, but unnatural; in a sense. It does however open up interesting conversation regarding the need for guardians (regulators) weighed against the individual liberties of the smaller critters.
Congrats on your ability to rebound with relative ease. You (apropos to this thread) apparently have the right skills, age, location, etc.. to make that possible. And the right attitude, mostly.
What you perhaps fail to grasp is that your continued well-being, and employability, is contingent on forces well beyond you or your field. What will happen when interest rates climb, when food prices, or gas, exceed the ability of consumers to buy, or workers to get to their jobs? You are connected to the warp-n-weft of society, the butterfly's wings on Docks, factories and mills, fishing boats, etc.... Your fate still hinges on the bigger picture and that is what OWS is trying to change. I personally know many ppl who are both well employed and secure (for now), who made time to participate this autumn. Because they knew that, not being the "1%", 'there but for the grace...' was all to close to home.
You will not participate, regardless of your employment status, until you feel drawn or compelled enough that nothing can stop you from being there. Until then, in the words of another/.'s postings:
"Don't use your own ignorance as an excuse to belittle the actions of those who have decided to stand up and say (do) something."
I saw the JStewart clip you reference; and yea the "Uptown, newly challenged, vs the Downtown proles" was too cute by 1/2. But that's not really the story here, only a sideline.
I'll read the "joreen" document when I can, but I suspect I get the jist of where it goes.
"...if they persist. They won't" Although probabilities suggest that you may be correct, I wouldn't underestimate the potential at play w/OWS. There currently are a lot of bright-minded people putting their heads together to address the pitfalls of organization, or its lack thereof, in trying to come up with equitable solutions.
One thing is more-or-less fact: OWS is fundamentally anarchistic: meaning the firm belief that a community of people do not need leaders. That those who aspire to lead often cause more harm to the group than good. That giving everyone a voice permits the best of possible outcomes. (And that diversity is a net-positive).
That is not too unlike you saying "of course, not complete destruction" because you recognize that a community (or nation) needs to adhere to some common principles.
As for the 'structurelessness' of the protest movement: until i have time and can read the link you provided, i can only say that unless this movement evolves beyond just protesting, you and those you cite are most likely correct in that it will be ineffective and fail. Protesting is, more-or-less, just sign-waving; visible only to the participants who feel compelled to be there and the immediate by-standers.
But I also know 1st-hand that it may not fail 100%; or, if/when protest turns to (mass) demonstration, it can force change upon the System.
That was proven in the 60's+1970-71. Mass demonstrations got the attention of, and forced change upon, the Establishment. Unfortunately, and where you may be correct, is that it was unsuccessful in causing fundamental change. ("when sally gets a bad name, she changes her face and changes her game")
The U.S. extricated itself from 'nam instead of nuking it, but then (ad)ventured into malaysia, the phillipines, etc... e.g. the momentuum never skipped a beat.
It brought NelsonRockefeller vindictiveness and payback into law, dumped massive quantities of drugs into innercities to prevent minorities and the poor (e.g. the front-line cannon fodder) from getting 'upity' again any time soon. It wrought untold suffering to places like ETimor, Angola and the Phillipines. The march of colonialism and the likes of big Oil, Big Pharma, United Fruit. (Not to mention inflicting some of us with agent-orange or DU or other toxic malady to lie about)
But, that was then, this is now. Yes,.gov has grown far too vast and is a direct threat to the well-being of its populace. From fusion-centers to the exponential growth of shadow government agencies all too willing to waste (steal) our money for their own ends, to recent legislation passed by the least popular government in American History.
BUT, I cannot accept the people you endorse because they collectively serve what we know is NOT a free-market, but an exploitation machine. A rigged game, a con under the name of capitalism which is anything BUT.
They serve the fundamentally religious who are (by and large) extremely wealthy and gated. They serve a war-mongering military that knows no restrait or bounds; only a revolving door into mercenariary self-interests. They worship an idol of privatization that produces the likes of CorrectionCorpsAmer, vulture.coms that shamelessly bleed dry everything they touch.
Worst of all, they act all high-n-mighty preaching their gospel of 'free-enterprise' and christian faith until their duplicity exposes them for the hypocrites they are. The list of ppl has become far too long to count. THEY are NOT christian, they are not what they expouse. All hat, no cattle,
Sorry, I reject your leaders. I reject most all of our 'leaders' currently in.gov, but yours are the very worst. Our con
" My point was that if you expect the system to support civil disobedience..." No one expects Government to support civil disobedience. It runs on status quo; which is what the people are protesting. The support of.gov is NOT what OWS is seeking and I cant imaging where you picked that up. Its a diverse group of people. Some are the recent disaffected who were happily 'establishment' not too many years ago and only now bitching under economic pressure. Others are working stiffs who' ve been responsible, keep their jobs... but not seen any improvement in their lives for decades. Evidence of this flat-line should be an accepted fact. Its a pretty diverse group and its trying to give everyone a voice. So it will probably take time to congeal; if they persist. What holds them together is a monumental sense of unfairness and inequity which runs counter to their belief in what America should be about.
Your focus point on students and their loans is disengenous. I suspect you are either seeing what you want to see or spinning what you want others to accept. "OWS just doesn't like stuff...." One, the 'stuff' they dont like is clearly defined and worthy of their dislike. Two, plans take time and this movement is still in its infance.
"the destruction of the federal government..." Ah, now your talkin like a radical left-wing anarchist; or a right-wing EmmaGoldman anarchist. But i suspect you are neither, but simply parroting the mantra of those who feel entitled to take w/out oversight or restraint at the expense of everyone else. Because you follow up with TP talking points, a group who are, in the aggregate, hypocrites or under the influence of biggest parts of the Establishment they decry. If you don't think that the Elites have robbed the Public trust, if you dont think something is fundamentally wrong when a small handfull of people own more wealth than a full-third of the populace (honest, hard-working people), if you dont see a problem with the investor-class capitally gaining from the suffering inflicted upon communities by corporations, then your either a) Part of the problem b) asleep at the wheel
" because you are so opposed to the law that you are willing to take the punishment as a demonstration" I think you're accurate on a personal level, but missing the bigger picture. One is purposefully taking the 'punishment' not only because of injustice, but in the hope that with enough doing so, the system is over-burdened and brought to a halt. The whole point of getting arrested is to clog the system as much as cloging the streets.
I like to think of it this way: Marching and waving signs is Protest. Pushing back, resistance, etc... is Demonstration (of People Power). Stopping the Machine, if only for a short time, or repeatedly, is often all it takes. Will 2012 echo the rumblings of the 60's; Chicago, D.C. mass arrests in the 1000's, a growing Voice of Dissent, etc....? I suppose time will tell.
I wish local news outlets and blogs werent afraid to be more critical of our reps when they try to legislate harmful laws. But that would behoove the publishers to acutally familiarize themselves with the issue@hand; and if its not local they don't care.
"Everyone intelligent has now heard of it and knows it's bad" Actually, because it's such a technical issue, I doubt you're right with this one. I say so from my 1st-hand experience in trying to do something about it. During this past year, I have repeatedly written letters to the editor(s), opinion pieces, commentary, etc.. on the evils of PROTECT-IP (E-PARASITE), COICA, filtering, DPI, etc..
I have hit the local blog-o-sphere repeatedly with info-pieces on the insidiousness of this legislation.
But below are just 3 of a dozen or more examples (spanning over 2 years now): 2011NOV03_7DaysVT-Leahy.txt 2011MAR10_Leahy_Anti-Campaign.txt 2010OCT30_Leahy_Plea.txt
I have called into local radio interviews w/Leahy; and he out-right says i'm wrong. I'm not terribly well-spoke, so most ppl just think i'm a wingnut. At least i can honestly say i tried.
As you can see, I am from VT and Sen. Leahy is one of the driving forces behind much of this mess. Local Dems running for office who are reciepients of his PAC funding (Rep. Susan Bartlett for instance) parrot the "save jobs and IP" mantra he supports w/out even knowing what its about.
What i have found from this experience is that: A) Sen. Leahy places the funding of his PAC (via the entertainment industry) as doing more good in helping dems get (re)elected than the laws those contributions are impacting. B) most people in my State only see their rep from a local POV. Meaning they do not know what they are doing in D.C. on laws that do not immediately affect them. They only see those efforts that bring home the bacon, so to speak.
Sen Leahy is held in very high regard here and I suspect nobody is going to buck that tide. So, no, even the local populace who consider themselves informed are probably not aware of what is happening (nationally) due to self-censorship of local media.
Its very sad, because I was one of his biggest suppporters; until he became sen 'hollywood'. I suspect, like Dodd, he's planning his exit strategy and even his opponents on this feel its well-deserved. Me, i feel it will ultimately tarnish his legacy over time.
Silly on the face of it, but i think we should have similar for a police force. Like jury duty, the average wanker gets a notice to serve a month as a deputized police officer. Like jury duty, they still keep their job and paycheck, but also get to write that month off of their income tax statement. The sheriff's dept. has fewer full-timers, whose job is overseeing the temps; and the temps are basically front-line peacekeepers and responders. The goal would be to reduce the growing adversarial relationship between LEA and the public:)
"The War on Drugs. This policy has been a complete and utter failure for at least 40 years" See, you've got the wrong perspective. For us, sure, but not for the ppl who initiated and perpetuated this. From its origins w/Rockefeller as payback for the upity N****rs thinking they could have a voice and threatening rebellion to today's privatized profiteers of human misery; everything (from their POV) has been (and still is) a smashing success.
Our leaders in.gov and.com may claim human error, but it really is more by design. There are no conspiracy theories; just greed and the interests of the 'investor class' to realize profits despite the pain and suffering their investments cause.
Just the power-trips of retired generals and merchants of death to exercise control over their self-entitled perceptions of 'service' and what they feel they are due.
I dont have mod points, but your comment is both concise and accurate; thanks for that.
Its a tad off-topic, but worth pointing out that in light of recent legislation being passed that makes it possible to 'disappear' U.S. citizens as 'home-grown' terrorists in ways that give Janet Napoliiano wet panties; by a congress whose approval rating is just a tad higher than contracting an STD; one should know that something very ungood is just around the corner.
I don't know if we hoi-polloi USAians are going to be able to change the tune we've been marching to; lemming-like, but i fear that the outcome will be according to a master-plan that entails moving the 25% or so non-urbanites into our massively-surveiled cities so the mega-corps can despoil our hinterland un-opposed.
Considering that this is what is currently happening in Africa (massive land purchases by bigAgra in this case) the notion of turning our country into a 3rd world is not too far-fetched.
We (ALL the world) should fear for our children. Sorry for the long sentences.
Here is a known fact: getting vaccinated for chicken-pox in childhood increases your risk of getting shingles as an adult. Google it: +chicken-pox +"adult shingles"
Here's a twist that I haven't come across in this thread and a case of unintended consequences: Google +chicken-pox +"adult shingles"
People who receive the varicella vaccine to protect themselves from the pox are now suseptible to getting shingles later in their adult life. To prevent that from happening, one needs another vaccine (a stronger form of the original). That vaccination costs $300.00 and is not covered by the State or by most all Health Insurance policies.
So, reduced outbreakes of chickpox in children has shown a corresponding increase in shingles as adults; because "adults who have had chickenpox as a child are less likely to have shingles in later life if they have been exposed occasionally to the chickenpox virus. This is because the exposure acts as a booster vaccine." (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varicella_vaccine)
Not to trivialize this thread's major points of individual vs community good, but my sister got immunized as a kid and this summer (at 46) came down with shingles. Her nerves were on fire and she almost risked addiction to pain medication while trying to get through it all. What you spare your children today could just as likely beset them in their adulthood. Just sayin'...
"you are an idiot. no, i'm not trying to insult you." If you are as educated and smart as you appear to be then you know quite well how insulting your words are. To say otherwise is condescending, disingenous and two-faced. It is not a way to make your point heard and understood as much as being imposed. It gives rise to the suspicion that if you had the power, you would impose your beliefs on others regardless of their own, equally personal, concerns. I've read, and agreed with, many of your positions on a wide range of subjects. I'm not sure why, but it disturbs me that the more strenuous your assertions, the more you are comming off as the asshole.
And I agree 100% as well. Though taking this to its logical conclusion implies that those who's health has been preserved through immunization and vaccines has been at the cost of others (prisoners, miserably poor africans, tormented rabbits in lab cages,....) who've been the guinnea pigs for your benefit.
Extend that to the Nike's you wear, or the cheap food you buy, or just about anything provided from living in a wealthy (by comparison) developed nation whose riches, more often than not, have come at the expense of those they've cheated and stolen from.
Much of your commentary in this thread has been related to causality; the effect of one's actions on another. If you are going to stick to that, then my point is not 'reduction to absurdity', but an acknowledgement that everything about your lifestyle bears the price of someone's elses misfortune. In the past, it was easier to be blissfully ignorant. These days, not so much so.
Although I do not fully agree with you, you do make a strong and well-thought argument in support of your position; which i believe can be expressed as the tack which performs the greatest good for the largest number of people. Leaving (the somewhat legit POV of) big pharma and gov't conspiracy aside, i would like to pose a more fundamental ? to you. All of your arguments are premised on the basis of equating society (large or small) to that of a herd; and its' well-being not unlike animal-husbandry and livestock (hence: sheeple)
But i feel that the respective goals of each are intrinsically different. W/out going into the specific differences of how and why they should be different, i'll end this comment with the thought that treating humans as a herd may not, in the long term, be doing our species any favors.
thank-you for taking the time to express your thoughts. Your first two wider points are about inequality; i have likened it to fuzzyness; like quantum level existance, relative probabilities and not certainties. Of the Law and of Trust. s/trust/accountability/ s/law/justice/ but the last point, "relative value of social and private profit." or, put later, the effect of entanglement between the private sector and government (elite perpetual leadership) on the 'social sector'. I hope OWS is able to educate to re-define those values, because they are not relative, but absolute. Sunshine and clorox. I hope they find the strength to demonstrate ppl power against the machine globally. Assert the value of our labors as a human right to survive; versus a disposable, leased existance reduced to serfdom. So much suffering and sadness, all to help short-sighted, myopic, bean-counters cut costs and raise margins for their share-holders and executives. The 5% or so among 7 trillion who are the investor class.
For me it boils down to just adopting gross happiness over GDP. I believed someone coined it sociocracy. We can recover from the theft, if we can put a stop to it.
Too many ppl are still in denial of the culpability their self-interest has had in this state of affairs. Preferring ignorant bliss in exchange for membership in an "Establishment" in whose myths they found comfort and profit; only to more recently discover that it was all a hustle and their trust was purchased on the cheap.
"they got well paid for burning their own house down". Its our houses their burning down. Well, waking up is hard to do.
Without elaborating into a boring wordball, I think its about what it has always been about: control by the elites. It was easy (in the USA) when times looked good and seemingly prosperous; now, the finer controls are slipping from their hands and they are having to resort to more direct intervention via government and the officials they can influence. From locking down the borders and constitution-free zones, to RFID cards in everything down to tires, to surveilance and license-scanning cameras on patrolcars; our mostly pathetic and mostly predictible actions are as on-demand as the payperview entertainment they try to feed us on. Most of us feel we will never be flagged, rarely if ever detained on the road or in our homes, never see 1st-hand or even hear the stories of what is going down in the shadows; while we slave away at a job we feel bound to in a country we hardly recognize anymore.
America is preparing itself to be run like a dictatorship; like china, authoritarians pushing austerity. A growing legion of bureaucrats in an alarmingly swelling shadow government.
The powers that be are trimming from the edges for now. Immigrants, the sick and poor, But they have plans in place for real disaster-economics when 'adjustments' are announced. Inflation, draught, the ripple-effect of some remote disaster.
It used to be that only the rich could get around; network, enjoy mobility and the freedom of travel. It provided valuable information that is now a commodity in todays' internetworked world. They have lost their propaganda-cum-smoke machine and if they cannot control, subjugate that medium it will be their undoing.
We can only hope that the hackers prevail and good people stand up or soon blackwaterXe will be comming to a neighborhood near you.
Think about that - private armies and operatives under contract to defend some despot and his bankrollers. It is the true origin of the word 'company' and hasn't been around for about as long.
But they're here now and growing in leaps. As retired generals (see EngCorp) privatize defense and 1M$ taxpayer trained grunts head off for 6figure salaries to bully some poor campesinos NITBY; you just know we'll all end up on the wrong end of the pointy stick in due time.
Very incisive observations; thank-you. I cannot provide citations or links, but i listened to an interview on the radio a couple of weeks back of a pysics professor who spoke about a new paradyme in the undertaking. It is based on accepting that lecturing does not work and being able to prove it as a fact. That those who 'get it' would do so anyway and those dont are prefocused on the mechanics more than fundamentals. That comprehension is best transmitted by peers approaching the subject for the 1st bec the teachers understanding is highly refined over many years; to apparently self-obvious. Anyhow, there is much more on the subject, these studies have gone national and perhaps academically viral. Am sure many K-12 teachers already have adopted peering; recognizing (finally) that we all learn differently. As tough as education has and will become, my hope is that those in school today will learn from our mistakes (edu as assembly-line) and change the model into one that encourages finding owe's strengths thru understanding and self-awareness rather than conformance.
First (i hope), everything is temporary, moreso these days; be it employment or unemployment. Its one thing to be able to hold out before the door closes on what used to be your career and, perhaps, a pleasurable skill in your life; and another to do just one has to to survive. That is the safety net a civilized state is supposed to provide. As above china sub-thread validates, no safety nets makes peons of all but a few percent. Some more content than others, all subject to the whim of a fixed game controlled by elites. Second, to say that "there is always work" belies suffering from the 'it cant happen here' naivety that any developing country (with up to 40% unemployment) would have a good laugh at. Climbing up has taken an industrial century, the gravity of falling is 10X as fast.
Sorry, my comments are not meant to disparrage either your intelligence or education. My prior comment was related to the 'privatization' campaigns that were imposed upon municipalities (or governments) facing debts that were, in large part, due to the influences of 'economic hit-men'.
Municipal water is not something to be privatized IMO. But when it was (Bechtel), it only took a year before water-prices skyrocketed, laws got passed forbidding owning/drilling one's own well, etc... Like you, I dont believe in.gov micromanagement. But 'disaster capitalism' and privatizing critical resources we need to survive is NOT a solution.
Here in the US it may not be as apparent as in the developing world (see africa and land aquisition by big Agra)
I suspect that we agree on more than less; and.gov is part of the 'cronyism' equation. But NO.gov just neuters any power over companies that are often richer than most countries.
Of course its useful to the major corps, just not for the people in general.
I never meant to suggest that big investment banks do not provide instruments that are not useful. Of course they are; for fortune 1000 corps who need to raise vast sums of $ For them the bankers are very useful.
What i am saying is that that 'usefullness' enriches very few at the cost of the many; doubly worse if the investment sours and the losses are socialized.
"It (sic) didn't get us anywhere"? Are you for real? We are in a depression. Student debt exceeds consumer plastic debt and both are over 1 trillion.
Mega M-n-A has gotten us into this mess because consolidation is directly tied to the vast transfer of wealth from public->private hands.
Trying to compare investment banks to divorce shops - just middleman, a broker, is funny. first because divorce lawyers generally make matters (far) worse and one can get divorced w/out retaining one. Mega-widget-corp could not move their factories to china were it not for the bankers enabling them.
Look, if those institutions were not so usurious and driven by greed i really couldnt care. But leveraging 6trillon in 36trillion, gaming the system, (really white-collar crime gone wild)... is the equivalent of directly causing divorces and changing the law so that a lawyer(s) must be used.
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Hi:
I picked your post for no good reason other than to say that (IMO) the media are mostly irrelevant.
The only one's who 'get it' are those compelled to assemble (as it were); to be there.
The cameras are for the voyeurs, whose mindsets will never change until they hear it from those they trust, not some talking head or forum debate.
My experience has shown me that mass protests and demonstrations affect only those who participate 1st-hand and those they know; parents, friends, sibs, loved ones, ... who get their information 1st-hand and are shaken awake.
That's all it takes, really, for the numbers to grow, for protest to become demonstration, for governments and officials to be removed from power.
Thank-you for your participation.
Don't forget to duck!
Hi:
I find it interesting, ironic really, that you would take the time to correct prior poster of the
pre-conceptions; while at the same time perpetuate
the stereotype of the poor Anarchist.
"Anarchists are just guys out to riot".. The simplicity of your short shrift is a sad tell of a prior movement (about a century ago) that suffered the same propagandized fate as those trying to spin OWS.
If you don't know about the American Anarchist Movement, the strong belief in no leaders, in sociocracy, in one's inherent right to survive; then may I suggest you acquaint yourself with its' history. Because today's anarchists are the ones with the most arguments WRT fundamental change.
The fact that sometimes it takes a riot (a la koreans or poles - a willingness for confrontation) should not diminish the fact that most anarchists are non-violent and seek peaceful change. Ah, though, to be young and full-o-piss
and really pissed off!
Don't get me wrong; because I agree with almost everything in your comment. .biz, the commonweal,...) are watched over by wardens as protectors of the weak.
But it occurs to me that the word "freedom", as it applies to the marketplace, is misplaced.
If it applied to travel, getting somewhere unhindered, it would be easy to define.
But freedom as it pertains to the market, to me, signifies more a darwinian freedom, to eat or be eaten; to fight or take flight.
The converse would be to be protected, where the marketplace is a preservation and weaker species (smaller
This would be enlightened, but unnatural; in a sense. It does however open up interesting conversation regarding the need for guardians (regulators) weighed against the individual liberties of the smaller critters.
Congrats on your ability to rebound with relative ease. You (apropos to this thread) apparently have the right skills, age, location, etc.. to make that possible. And the right attitude, mostly.
What you perhaps fail to grasp is that your continued well-being, and employability, is contingent on forces well beyond you or your field.
What will happen when interest rates climb, when food prices, or gas, exceed the ability of consumers to buy, or workers to get to their jobs?
You are connected to the warp-n-weft of society, the butterfly's wings on Docks, factories and mills, fishing boats, etc....
Your fate still hinges on the bigger picture and that is what OWS is trying to change.
I personally know many ppl who are both well employed and secure (for now), who made time to participate this autumn. Because they knew that, not being the "1%", 'there but for the grace...'
was all to close to home.
You will not participate, regardless of your employment status, until you feel drawn or compelled enough that nothing can stop you from being there. Until then, in the words of another /.'s postings:
"Don't use your own ignorance as an excuse to belittle the actions of those who have decided to
stand up and say (do) something."
Yes, feeling better; nothing personel.
Point(s):
Protest is weak, demonstration is strong.
OWS is fundamentally anarchistic; a good thing.
as people do not need leaders or to be lead.
"Structurelessness" is an important but transitional phase.
We (the populace@large) don't need to remain w/in the current paradyme.
The TP is working w/in that paradyme on behalf of the Elites and their leaders are the worst hypocrites that $ can buy (excepting RP).
Its grass-roots members, like the evangelicals, are being conned and would do well to wake up.
I belive OWS will be returning (in force) come Spring.
I saw the JStewart clip you reference; and yea the "Uptown, newly challenged, vs the Downtown proles" was too cute by 1/2. But that's not really the story here, only a sideline.
I'll read the "joreen" document when I can, but I suspect I get the jist of where it goes.
"...if they persist. They won't"
Although probabilities suggest that you may be correct, I wouldn't underestimate the potential at play w/OWS. There currently are a lot of bright-minded people putting their heads together to address the pitfalls of organization, or its lack thereof, in trying to come up with equitable solutions.
One thing is more-or-less fact: OWS is fundamentally anarchistic: meaning the firm belief that a community of people do not need leaders. That those who aspire to lead often cause more harm to the group than good. That giving everyone a voice permits the best of possible outcomes. (And that diversity is a net-positive).
That is not too unlike you saying "of course, not complete destruction" because you recognize that a community (or nation) needs to adhere to some common principles.
As for the 'structurelessness' of the protest movement: until i have time and can read the link you provided, i can only say that unless this movement evolves beyond just protesting, you and those you cite are most likely correct in that it will be ineffective and fail.
Protesting is, more-or-less, just sign-waving; visible only to the participants who feel compelled to be there and the immediate by-standers.
But I also know 1st-hand that it may not fail 100%; or, if/when protest turns to (mass) demonstration, it can force change upon the System.
That was proven in the 60's+1970-71. Mass demonstrations got the attention of, and forced change upon, the Establishment. Unfortunately, and where you may be correct, is that it was unsuccessful in causing fundamental change.
("when sally gets a bad name, she changes her face and changes her game")
The U.S. extricated itself from 'nam instead of nuking it, but then (ad)ventured into malaysia, the phillipines, etc... e.g. the momentuum never skipped a beat.
It brought NelsonRockefeller vindictiveness and payback into law, dumped massive quantities of drugs into innercities to prevent minorities and the poor (e.g. the front-line cannon fodder) from getting 'upity' again any time soon.
It wrought untold suffering to places like ETimor, Angola and the Phillipines. The march of colonialism and the likes of big Oil, Big Pharma, United Fruit. (Not to mention inflicting some of us with agent-orange or DU or other toxic malady to lie about)
But, that was then, this is now. Yes, .gov has grown far too vast and is a direct threat to the well-being of its populace. From fusion-centers to the exponential growth of shadow government agencies all too willing to waste (steal) our money for their own ends, to recent legislation passed by the least popular government in American History.
BUT, I cannot accept the people you endorse because they collectively serve what we know is NOT a free-market, but an exploitation machine.
A rigged game, a con under the name of capitalism which is anything BUT.
They serve the fundamentally religious who are (by and large) extremely wealthy and gated. They serve a war-mongering military that knows no restrait or bounds; only a revolving door into mercenariary self-interests. They worship an idol of privatization that produces the likes of CorrectionCorpsAmer, vulture .coms that shamelessly bleed dry everything they touch.
Worst of all, they act all high-n-mighty preaching their gospel of 'free-enterprise' and christian faith until their duplicity exposes them for the hypocrites they are. The list of ppl has become far too long to count. THEY are NOT christian, they are not what they expouse. All hat, no cattle,
Sorry, I reject your leaders. I reject most all of our 'leaders' currently in .gov, but yours are the very worst. Our con
" My point was that if you expect the system to support civil disobedience..." .gov is NOT what OWS is seeking and I cant imaging where you picked that up. ... but not seen any improvement in their lives for decades.
No one expects Government to support civil disobedience. It runs on status quo; which is what the people are protesting. The support of
Its a diverse group of people. Some are the recent disaffected who were happily 'establishment' not too many years ago and only now bitching under economic pressure. Others are working stiffs who'
ve been responsible, keep their jobs
Evidence of this flat-line should be an accepted fact.
Its a pretty diverse group and its trying to give everyone a voice. So it will probably take time to congeal; if they persist.
What holds them together is a monumental sense of unfairness and inequity which runs counter to their belief in what America should be about.
Your focus point on students and their loans is disengenous. I suspect you are either seeing what you want to see or spinning what you want others to accept.
"OWS just doesn't like stuff...." One, the 'stuff' they dont like is clearly defined and worthy of their dislike. Two, plans take time and this movement is still in its infance.
"the destruction of the federal government..."
Ah, now your talkin like a radical left-wing anarchist; or a right-wing EmmaGoldman anarchist.
But i suspect you are neither, but simply parroting the mantra of those who feel entitled to
take w/out oversight or restraint at the expense of everyone else. Because you follow up with
TP talking points, a group who are, in the aggregate, hypocrites or under the influence of biggest parts of the Establishment they decry.
If you don't think that the Elites have robbed the Public trust, if you dont think something is fundamentally wrong when a small handfull of people own more wealth than a full-third of the populace (honest, hard-working people), if you dont see a problem with the investor-class capitally gaining from the suffering inflicted upon communities by corporations,
then your either
a) Part of the problem
b) asleep at the wheel
" because you are so opposed to the law that you are willing to take the punishment as a demonstration"
I think you're accurate on a personal level, but missing the bigger picture. One is purposefully taking the 'punishment' not only because of injustice, but in the hope that with enough doing so, the system is over-burdened and brought to a halt. The whole point of getting arrested is to clog the system as much as cloging the streets.
I like to think of it this way:
Marching and waving signs is Protest.
Pushing back, resistance, etc... is Demonstration (of People Power). Stopping the Machine, if only for a short time, or repeatedly, is often all it takes.
Will 2012 echo the rumblings of the 60's; Chicago, D.C. mass arrests in the 1000's, a growing Voice of Dissent, etc....?
I suppose time will tell.
I've tried to, and feel the same as you.
See my comment (#38408980) to yesterdays thread.
https://tech.slashdot.org/story/11/12/16/1943257/congresss-techno-ignorance-no-longer-funny
I wish local news outlets and blogs werent afraid to be more critical of our reps when they try to legislate harmful laws. But that would behoove the publishers to acutally familiarize themselves with the issue@hand; and if its not local they don't care.
"Everyone intelligent has now heard of it and knows it's bad"
Actually, because it's such a technical issue, I doubt you're right with this one. I say so from my 1st-hand experience in trying to do something about it.
During this past year, I have repeatedly written letters to the editor(s), opinion pieces, commentary, etc.. on the evils of PROTECT-IP (E-PARASITE), COICA, filtering, DPI, etc..
I have hit the local blog-o-sphere repeatedly with
info-pieces on the insidiousness of this legislation.
But below are just 3 of a dozen or more examples (spanning over 2 years now):
2011NOV03_7DaysVT-Leahy.txt
2011MAR10_Leahy_Anti-Campaign.txt
2010OCT30_Leahy_Plea.txt
I have called into local radio interviews w/Leahy;
and he out-right says i'm wrong. I'm not terribly
well-spoke, so most ppl just think i'm a wingnut. At least i can honestly say i tried.
As you can see, I am from VT and Sen. Leahy is one of the driving forces behind much of this mess.
Local Dems running for office who are reciepients of his PAC funding (Rep. Susan Bartlett for instance) parrot the "save jobs and IP" mantra he
supports w/out even knowing what its about.
What i have found from this experience is that:
A) Sen. Leahy places the funding of his PAC (via the entertainment industry) as doing more good in helping dems get (re)elected than the laws those contributions are impacting.
B) most people in my State only see their rep from a local POV. Meaning they do not know what they are doing in D.C. on laws that do not immediately affect them. They only see those efforts that bring home the bacon, so to speak.
Sen Leahy is held in very high regard here and I suspect nobody is going to buck that tide. So, no,
even the local populace who consider themselves informed are probably not aware of what is happening (nationally) due to self-censorship of local media.
Its very sad, because I was one of his biggest suppporters; until he became sen 'hollywood'. I suspect, like Dodd, he's planning his exit strategy and even his opponents on this feel its well-deserved. Me, i feel it will ultimately tarnish his legacy over time.
More a "parliment of crows"
Silly on the face of it, but i think we should have similar for a police force. Like jury duty, the average wanker gets a notice to serve a month as a deputized police officer. Like jury duty, they still keep their job and paycheck, but also get to write that month off of their income tax statement.
The sheriff's dept. has fewer full-timers, whose job is overseeing the temps; and the temps are basically front-line peacekeepers and responders.
The goal would be to reduce the growing adversarial relationship between LEA and the public:)
Hi:
"The War on Drugs. This policy has been a complete and utter failure for at least 40 years"
See, you've got the wrong perspective. For us, sure, but not for the ppl who initiated and perpetuated this. From its origins w/Rockefeller as payback for the upity N****rs thinking they could have a voice and threatening rebellion to today's privatized profiteers of human misery; everything (from their POV) has been (and still is) a smashing success.
Our leaders in .gov and .com may claim human error, but it really is more by design. There are no conspiracy theories; just greed and the interests of the 'investor class' to realize profits despite the pain and suffering their investments cause.
Just the power-trips of retired generals and merchants of death to exercise control over their self-entitled perceptions of 'service' and what they feel they are due.
I dont have mod points, but your comment is both concise and accurate; thanks for that.
Its a tad off-topic, but worth pointing out that in light of recent legislation being passed that makes it possible to 'disappear' U.S. citizens as 'home-grown' terrorists in ways that give Janet Napoliiano wet panties; by a congress whose approval rating is just a tad higher than contracting an STD; one should know that something very ungood is just around the corner.
I don't know if we hoi-polloi USAians are going to be able to change the tune we've been marching to; lemming-like, but i fear that the outcome will be according to a master-plan that entails moving the 25% or so non-urbanites into our massively-surveiled cities so the mega-corps can despoil our hinterland un-opposed.
Considering that this is what is currently happening in Africa (massive land purchases by bigAgra in this case) the notion of turning our country into a 3rd world is not too far-fetched.
We (ALL the world) should fear for our children.
Sorry for the long sentences.
Here is a known fact:
getting vaccinated for chicken-pox in childhood increases your risk of getting shingles as an adult. Google it: +chicken-pox +"adult shingles"
and please stand yourself corrected
Here's a twist that I haven't come across in this thread and a case of unintended consequences:
Google +chicken-pox +"adult shingles"
People who receive the varicella vaccine to protect themselves from the pox are now suseptible to getting shingles later in their adult life.
To prevent that from happening, one needs another vaccine (a stronger form of the original).
That vaccination costs $300.00 and is not covered by the State or by most all Health Insurance policies.
So, reduced outbreakes of chickpox in children has shown a corresponding increase in shingles as adults; because "adults who have had chickenpox as a child are less likely to have shingles in later life if they have been exposed occasionally to the chickenpox virus. This is because the exposure acts as a booster vaccine."
(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varicella_vaccine)
Not to trivialize this thread's major points of individual vs community good, but my sister got immunized as a kid and this summer (at 46) came down with shingles. Her nerves were on fire and she almost risked addiction to pain medication while trying to get through it all.
What you spare your children today could just as likely beset them in their adulthood. Just sayin'...
"you are an idiot. no, i'm not trying to insult you."
If you are as educated and smart as you appear to be then you know quite well how insulting your words are. To say otherwise is condescending, disingenous and two-faced.
It is not a way to make your point heard and understood as much as being imposed. It gives rise to the suspicion that if you had the power, you would impose your beliefs on others regardless of their own, equally personal, concerns.
I've read, and agreed with, many of your positions on a wide range of subjects. I'm not sure why, but it disturbs me that the more strenuous your assertions, the more you are comming off as the asshole.
And I agree 100% as well. Though taking this to its logical conclusion implies that those who's health has been preserved through immunization and vaccines has been at the cost of others (prisoners, miserably poor africans, tormented rabbits in lab cages, ....) who've been the guinnea pigs for your benefit.
Extend that to the Nike's you wear, or the cheap food you buy, or just about anything provided from living in a wealthy (by comparison) developed nation whose riches, more often than not, have come at the expense of those they've cheated and stolen from.
Much of your commentary in this thread has been related to causality; the effect of one's actions on another. If you are going to stick to that, then my point is not 'reduction to absurdity', but an acknowledgement that everything about your lifestyle bears the price of someone's elses misfortune.
In the past, it was easier to be blissfully ignorant. These days, not so much so.
Although I do not fully agree with you, you do make a strong and well-thought argument in support of your position; which i believe can be expressed as the tack which performs the greatest good for the largest number of people.
Leaving (the somewhat legit POV of) big pharma and gov't conspiracy aside, i would like to pose a more fundamental ? to you.
All of your arguments are premised on the basis of
equating society (large or small) to that of a herd; and its' well-being not unlike animal-husbandry and livestock (hence: sheeple)
But i feel that the respective goals of each
are intrinsically different. W/out going into the specific differences of how and why they should be different, i'll end this comment with the thought that treating humans as a herd may not, in the long term, be doing our species any favors.
thank-you for taking the time to express your thoughts.
Your first two wider points are about inequality; i have likened it to fuzzyness; like quantum level existance, relative probabilities and not certainties. Of the Law and of Trust.
s/trust/accountability/ s/law/justice/
but the last point, "relative value of social and private profit." or, put later, the effect of entanglement between the private sector and government (elite perpetual leadership) on the 'social sector'. I hope OWS is able to educate to re-define those values, because they are not relative, but absolute. Sunshine and clorox.
I hope they find the strength to demonstrate ppl power against the machine globally. Assert the value of our labors as a human right to survive; versus a disposable, leased existance reduced to serfdom. So much suffering and sadness, all to help short-sighted, myopic, bean-counters cut costs and raise margins for their share-holders and executives. The 5% or so among 7 trillion who are the investor class.
For me it boils down to just adopting gross happiness over GDP. I believed someone coined it sociocracy. We can recover from the theft, if we
can put a stop to it.
Too many ppl are still in denial of the culpability their self-interest has had in this state of affairs. Preferring ignorant bliss in exchange for membership in an "Establishment" in whose myths they found comfort and profit; only to more recently discover that it was all a hustle and their trust was purchased on the cheap.
"they got well paid for burning their own house down". Its our houses their burning down.
Well, waking up is hard to do.
Without elaborating into a boring wordball, I think its about what it has always been about: control by the elites. It was easy (in the USA) when times looked good and seemingly prosperous; now, the finer controls are slipping from their hands and they are having to resort to more direct intervention via government and the officials they can influence.
From locking down the borders and constitution-free zones, to RFID cards in everything down to tires, to surveilance and license-scanning cameras on patrolcars; our mostly pathetic and mostly predictible actions are as on-demand as the payperview entertainment they try to feed us on.
Most of us feel we will never be flagged, rarely if ever detained on the road or in our homes, never see 1st-hand or even hear the stories of what is going down in the shadows; while we slave away at a job we feel bound to in a country we hardly recognize anymore.
America is preparing itself to be run like a dictatorship; like china, authoritarians pushing austerity. A growing legion of bureaucrats in an alarmingly swelling shadow government.
The powers that be are trimming from the edges for now. Immigrants, the sick and poor, But they have plans in place for real disaster-economics when 'adjustments' are announced. Inflation, draught, the ripple-effect of some remote disaster.
It used to be that only the rich could get around; network, enjoy mobility and the freedom of travel. It provided valuable information that is now a commodity in todays' internetworked world.
They have lost their propaganda-cum-smoke machine
and if they cannot control, subjugate that medium it will be their undoing.
We can only hope that the hackers prevail and good people stand up or soon blackwaterXe will be comming to a neighborhood near you.
Think about that - private armies and operatives under contract to defend some despot and his bankrollers. It is the true origin of the word 'company' and hasn't been around for about as long.
But they're here now and growing in leaps.
As retired generals (see EngCorp) privatize defense and 1M$ taxpayer trained grunts head off for 6figure salaries to bully some poor campesinos NITBY; you just know we'll all end up on the wrong end of the pointy stick in due time.
How else does one keep 7 trillion in their place?
Keep your head down and don't forget to duck!
Very incisive observations; thank-you.
I cannot provide citations or links, but i listened to an interview on the radio a couple of weeks back of a pysics professor who spoke about a new paradyme in the undertaking. It is based on accepting that lecturing does not work and being able to prove it as a fact. That those who 'get it' would do so anyway and those dont are prefocused on the mechanics more than fundamentals. That comprehension is best transmitted by peers approaching the subject for the 1st bec the teachers understanding is highly refined over many years; to apparently self-obvious.
Anyhow, there is much more on the subject, these studies have gone national and perhaps academically viral. Am sure many K-12 teachers already have adopted peering; recognizing (finally) that we all learn differently.
As tough as education has and will become, my hope is that those in school today will learn from our mistakes (edu as assembly-line) and change the model into one that encourages finding owe's strengths thru understanding and self-awareness rather than conformance.
First (i hope), everything is temporary, moreso these days; be it employment or unemployment.
Its one thing to be able to hold out before the door closes on what used to be your career and, perhaps, a pleasurable skill in your life; and another to do just one has to to survive.
That is the safety net a civilized state is supposed to provide. As above china sub-thread validates, no safety nets makes peons of all but a few percent. Some more content than others, all subject to the whim of a fixed game controlled by elites.
Second, to say that "there is always work" belies suffering from the 'it cant happen here' naivety
that any developing country (with up to 40% unemployment) would have a good laugh at.
Climbing up has taken an industrial century, the gravity of falling is 10X as fast.
Sorry, my comments are not meant to disparrage either your intelligence or education. My prior comment was related to the 'privatization' campaigns that were imposed upon municipalities (or governments) facing debts that were, in large part, due to the influences of 'economic hit-men'.
Municipal water is not something to be privatized IMO. But when it was (Bechtel), it only took a year before water-prices skyrocketed, laws got passed forbidding owning/drilling one's own well, etc... .gov micromanagement.
Like you, I dont believe in
But 'disaster capitalism' and privatizing critical resources we need to survive is NOT a solution.
Here in the US it may not be as apparent as in the
developing world (see africa and land aquisition by big Agra)
I suspect that we agree on more than less; and .gov is part of the 'cronyism' equation. But NO .gov just neuters any power over companies that are often richer than most countries.
Be well superwiz, we're on the same side.
Hi and thanks for the reply
Of course its useful to the major corps, just not for the people in general.
I never meant to suggest that big investment banks do not provide instruments that are not useful.
Of course they are; for fortune 1000 corps who
need to raise vast sums of $
For them the bankers are very useful.
What i am saying is that that 'usefullness' enriches very few at the cost of the many; doubly worse if the investment sours and the losses are socialized.
"It (sic) didn't get us anywhere"? Are you for real? We are in a depression. Student debt exceeds
consumer plastic debt and both are over 1 trillion.
Mega M-n-A has gotten us into this mess because consolidation is directly tied to the vast transfer of wealth from public->private hands.
Trying to compare investment banks to divorce shops - just middleman, a broker, is funny.
first because divorce lawyers generally make matters (far) worse and one can get divorced w/out
retaining one. Mega-widget-corp could not move their factories to china were it not for the bankers enabling them.
Look, if those institutions were not so usurious and driven by greed i really couldnt care. But leveraging 6trillon in 36trillion, gaming the system, (really white-collar crime gone wild)...
is the equivalent of directly causing divorces and changing the law so that a lawyer(s) must be used.