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NYPD Dismantling Occupy Wall Street Encampment
First time accepted submitter Red_Chaos1 was the first to write with news that, as of around 06:30 UTC, the NYPD appears to have begun removing the encampment of Occupy Wall Street. At 06:34 UTC the Mayor's office issued a tweet declaring: "Occupants of Zuccotti should temporarily leave and remove tents and tarps. Protesters can return after the park is cleared." Around 07:15 UTC the first of several large dumpsters were deposited and the police began throwing tents and other debris into it. Reports also indicate that a Long Range Acoustic Device is on the premises. The police are using helicopters and physical barriers to prevent news coverage, but the Occupiers are streaming the events (alternative stream; #occupywallstreet on irc.indymedia.org is also rather active for those who don't fancy flash or twitter.) As of 09:15 or so, the situation according to those near NYC is that the park has more or less been cleared.
I haven't particularly warm-hearted feelings for the Occupy hipsters, but...
The police are using helicopters and physical barriers to prevent news coverage
Seems a bit excessive and somewhat dubious.
Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
Good. No one knows what they are protesting anyway. From the looks of the lot I saw, they weren't lacking jobs because they were totally qualified, hard working Americans looking for work. Perhaps a haircut and an education might help you attain wealth quicker than living in a cardboard box on someone else's property.
God bless America!
All they need to do is wait 2-3 more weeks. The weather will chase the bulk of these trust fund rebels out when the high is 30 deg. F. The few remaining will be easy to remove.
http://www.ustream.tv/TheOther99
Major media helicopters have been forced out of the air by NYPD. Lots of fresh news on twitter:
https://twitter.com/#!/search?q=%23occupywallstreet
NYPD Police scanner here:
http://www.radioreference.com/apps/audio/?action=wp&feedId=8905
NYPD switchboard isn't taking any more calls:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/home/contact_information.shtml
Times are wrong, it's 8:05 UTC as of this posting
If this is right and legal and just, why wait until 1am to do it? Why? And why bar press? And why the hell didn't you just leave them alone in the first place, ppl would be like: "ppl in the park, protesting, want something" and then "next". But instead, it's sure to backfire. People want to believe the stuff they were taught in elementary school about freedom, etc. *shrugs*
I'm posting at 08:08 UTC
It has been going on for a couple of months now.
At this point there is no real goal other than 'dismantel the man'.
If you guys are *serious* about staying there and doing something then get a GOAL. Something you can actually achieve. Other than camping out. Winter is coming and it gets cold there.
If your goal is nothing more than being pissed off at the 'man'. Well that has been going on for many generations.
You guys have the will to do something. You just have no idea what exactly you want. Also keep in mind you will need to convince the other 98% of us to think it is a good idea too. Some will join you because they like a 'good cause'. Others will oppose you just because you want to change things. But if all you can come up with is 'i hate the man'. Well, we all do whats your point?
If you do not come up with a concrete goal soon the 'man' will get tired of your BS and toss you on your ear.
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
Throwing tents into dumpsters, without issuing a 'vacate or your property is forfeit' order seems like a clear violation to a non-lawyer.
Lawyers? Or have I simply missed something requiring the demonstrators to disperse?
By removing protesters, rather than having talks with them, the government is showing the occupy movement that they don't care. People should be allowed to practice peaceful protest, but it seems like the Occupy movement is being repeatedly shown that the government doesn't have a heart. First they were fenced in on the street. Then they were pepper sprayed. Then when it got cold, the fire department came and took away the generators providing heat. Now they're being forcibly removed from where they were camped.
This is really sad, and I don't think any of these things were the correct response.
The American Dream
The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky
According to the Livestream, at least 200 people remain and they are being arrested.
Or it could be that anarchists were starting to cause too much trouble for the NYPD (and by extension, Oakland PD) to handle...
This Occupy movement, while having a noble cause, did not use peaceful protests in an effective, coordinated fashion. No leaders were/are both a blessing and a curse. Blessing in that authorities can't find a reason to capture that leader when that leader doesn't exist and curse in that you're seeing the result right now... People getting shot and hit on the head with tear gas dispensers because those crowds agitated the police enough that they felt threatened and reacted towards the perceived threat. The authorities are now cleaning house most likely because they got the okay from the courts to do it. City councils I'm sure have the same power...
I'd love to see an Occupy 2.0 sort of thing, but it's likely not going to happen with public protest unless a few singular people can get themselves together and lead the entire thing. Look at the Civil Rights Movement... eventually a leader came out of it. ;)
funny, after all the libya, egypt etc stuff.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-15732661
even funnier is the mayor issuing statements.. ON FUCKING TWITTER. WTF MAN?
why not just wait for the winter? if they got a place to go, they're not going to stay in the park..
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
I have a hunch this is here simply because it shows a US police force in a bad light, and there's nothing Slashdotters love more than a chance to rag on the US establishment.
If, instead, Slashdot intends to broaden out into non-nerd news - when will we start seeing stories about the women who are charging Herman Cain with sexual misbehavior? How about the pedophilia and rape allegations against former PSU coach Jerry Sandusky? Can we expect coverage of this year's MLB free agent market, and reporting of any rumors regarding potential landing spots for Prince Fielder and Albert Pujols?
#DeleteChrome
The protesters made some good points:
Chrony Capitalism coupled with inflation really has created a system where money comes out of the void, shoots to the top and by the very existence of that new money being created causes the money other people hold to decline in value.
Wall Street without a doubt orchestrated the creation of this system.
HOWEVER Wall Street people are the wrong ones to protest. Companies exist to make money by whatever means legal, and in some cases not legal. The bottom line is companies exist to make money. You invest in whatever company is most capable of doing that.
The problem lies in chronyism. A company that participates in chronyism isn't doing anything wrong, it's a means to an end in the companies goal of accumulating money. The corrupt government playing ball with chronies on the other hand IS doing something wrong.
Our government representatives are supposed to represent the people. When they begin to self-serve instead of serve the people they are doing something wrong.
By protesting Wall Street they're sending the message they don't want anyone to make money. If they were to "occupy the mall" instead and focus all of their energies and talent into figuring out the mechanics of every bribe, kick-back, vote trade, intimidation tactic, threat and dishonest move of every politician in Washington and create something akin to Wikipedia devoted specifically to those ends with as much evidence as possible we would be putting the real problem back in check. Unfortunately our three branch balance of power is out of balance, I blame the executive and legislative branches for pushing it out of balance and I blame the judicial branch for actively endorsing the shift in balance.
I don't get an actual feeling the OWSers are motived to fix things. I get a sense of "I'm fucking with you because I can" and I get the feeling they're pushing for a fascist communist/socialist shift. As with every large movement it's obviously not an across the board thing, but I do feel that it's the general consensus, and I'm also starting to suspect outside driving forces, in much the same way the Egyptian government had paid pro-government protesters to clash with the grass-roots protesters some time back. With the OWS crowd they wouldn't need more than a couple of key charismatic people placed in each camp.
In short theres a real problem that needs fixing, but I feel the motive of the protesters is to insert an agenda instead of actually fixing the problem.
The preceding post was not a Slashvertisement.
I'm not sure how the original wall street movement is going, but it has spread to cities around the world. The one we had in our local small city was ridiculous. As much as I'm happy to defend the right for people to peacefully protest it seemed to turn into more of a tent slum in the middle of our nice city parks, a park which is for everyones use.
While I'm all for their protest, in face of cancelling a major event that is hosted in the park annually I'm glad that our council gave them a move on order. Not as excessive as this NYPD action, but the protestors did make their point and it's time to let the rest of us also enjoy the public property they decided to essentially squat on.
No one has ever accomplished a goddamn thing by "camping out". You protest during business hours when you can get people's attention and when media bureaus are active and fully staffed, then you go home, take a shower, and sleep in a warm bed. In the morning, you go back and do it again. Rinse, repeat.
The only attention these knoblickers are attracting by sleeping in a New York park is from the rats and the homeless.
Nothing worthwhile ever happens before noon
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2011/11/occupy_portland_demonstrators_2.html
was just similarly dismantled. It was getting lots of local news coverage and I was hoping to see a fight but nothing happened :(
is gone.
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
Anyone yet objecting to this definition ?
Read radical news here
I love how the reason for clearing it is because the very businesses they are protesting complained. So the city acted.
Shows how much people matter.
I'm watching this, and thinking. "This country is dying."
The people no longer matter.
You can vote on whether you think this was the right thing to do or not...
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/hundreds-cops-flood-zuccotti-park-occupy-wall-street-protesters-show-defiance-retreat-surrender-article-1.977430
I think the reason the government and mainstream media are uneasy with the Occupy Wall Street movement is it is basically saying the government in its current form no longer represents the will of most American people. Governments do not like having their legitimacy called into question. No other american protest movement in my life time has done this.
NYPD has some valid reasons to clean that park (as it is private and not everything happens by the book), but they totally drop the ball with trying to control it as much as possible - it is already crying out loud "dictatorship".
As for OWS - those people should understood that only protesting nothing will change - they have to get into politics at this moment. Two party system have failed US, because currently elites of both parties are drawn in lobby money and are constantly encycled by rich people. Even if someone like Obama wants really to do something (I'm not saying that he did or does), usually such initiatives are leveled with low level complaining. If it doesn't work, "unamerican", "socialist", etc. arguments comes up. You know how it works.
user@ubuntubox:~$ stfu This server is going down for shutdown NOW!
He is the 1%. The king and his court are hardly going to be advocating for the foundation of a republic are they?
Remember this next time you watch TV or any other media. How many of the people you see in media are making minimum wage or even an average wage.
For that matter, how many here on slashdot do a real days work? Hint, it is 10:30 in holland as I post this. Do you think a factory worker has the same luxury?
I am not the 1%, I am somewhere in the middle but I came from the bottom and know just how much you can expect from the 1% in caring even the tiniest bit about anyone else. Bloomberg can paint himself with a donkey or an elephant, in reality he is filthy rich and cares only for himself.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
They sit in the middle between an investor and the company or asset to be invested in, and try to get the cheapest buy price and the most expensive sell price.
They don't MAKE money, they TRANSFER money from investors and companies to their pockets. Then they use money to buy Congress and that gives them laws to dodge their taxes.
e.g. John Paulson, made $9 billion in fees running a hedge fund, he pays 0% tax. The owners of the Los Angeles Dodgers spend $45 million a year, and pay not tax. Terrence Wall (Republican Senate Candidate) earned $14 million, income tax 0%.
Lately they've stopped even doing that, instead creating false assets 'derivatives', marketing those as though they have a value to banks (or often themselves posing as banks). When banks lend they *create* money at the leverage rate (so for every $1 real, they create $30 fake). The value that 'created' money is secured against, is created by companies making stuff, by oil companies drilling stuff out of the ground and by people working to create things of value. It's *not* created in Wallstreet. They are diluting down the value created by others by creating more currency against it.
So when they create a *fake* asset against the value of *real* work, they are transferring the money from the Apple's & IBM's and you and me of this world, to Wallstreet. You don't even need to be trading stocks to be milked by Wallstreet, once they got bank status they could directly milk the value of any dollar asset you hold.
So it's not OK, to do what Wallstreet is *printing* money, they should never have been bailed out by Bush and his Tarp program, and once he plugged them into the banking system, of course they're going to go wild and milk it for billions. If you owned the printing press you would too.
Neither was nazi germany all that bad, as long as you weren't on the list. That is why such regimes can continue to exist, because the majority isn't on the list and it is very unhuman (but very human) to risk getting on a list for someone else who is on a list.
That is why real heroes, like the people of Urk (fairly strict christians who had no real love or hate for jews but disliked people telling them what to do with a passion) are so fucking rare. It takes balls of steels to risk your safety for someone else. The fast majority did not. Ich habe es nicht gewust really means, I spend all my time looking the other way so it wouldn't happen to me.
And the US has been caught out many many times recently and in the past in making people disappear. Check all the foreign detainment camps operated by the CIA. It is not even a secret anymore, except by those like you who choose to look the other way.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
fascist communist/socialist
dont talk, if you dont know shit. what you typed in there in one shot, are THREE different, separate concepts, and they dont go together. one cannot exist or be merged with the other. but you have written them as if they are one or merged concepts.
so, basically you dont know shit about these, and yet you have typed us what, 6 paragraphs ?
how about taking that time to actually google and read what the concepts you were shitting about ACTUALLY mean, from wikipedia or some other source ? out of respect for the people in your community ? huh ? so next time, you wont shit around without actually knowing shit and coming up like an idiot ?
Read radical news here
The very reason why these people started to gather around the world is proved not by them, but by the measures the "authorities" are taking against them.
We are already approaching a critical mass, and the governmental is shooting itself in the foot with these kind of measures. It will not be too long until some questionable but strong leader will leverage this mob and use it to rise to power. This is how leaders like Hitler or Stalin came to power.
The fall of capitalism will not be a very pretty thing, it will be worse than World War 2. The situation is very bad. I'm scared. I'm really scared.
Actually, my last big theory is that we have exactly one shot at a grand slam Dark Horse candidate, totally out of nowhere, to pummel Washington into smithereens. But only once. Then the outcasts will be livid and we'll see the final sweep into oppression.
But the last tool the Big Two use is they're all in 1 town, and they play the entire country on a Prisoner's Dilemma. And it worked for 50-100 years. But with the advent of the newest social media, if the entire country suddenly decides it has had enough, one last vote could sweep out absolutely everybody leaving the entire Washington machine speechless.
We'd need both the Pres and a Filibuster-Proof Congress. Then we'd have to work FAST. We'd only get a year (you better bet the Justice Dept would cheat and not let us have all four years!), but maybe we can fix 30 years of abuse.
Fix copyrights.
Fix patents.
Fix net neutrality
Fix police arrogance
Your choice of 20 more things.
Let there be loopholes!
Being funny for a moment, let's apply our Rapid Software Development to Law! Heh wanna get the Geek's revenge for all the version explaining we have to do?
Corp: "Haha we found a loophole so we're going to do This Evil Thing."
Fast Track Administration: "Oh. Nice 0day. Okay. Tomorrow is Patch Tuesday. It's 3PM. Better hope your execs are around to get it done because it won't be there tomorrow at 9am. K. Thx. Bye."
Use the "put the testing on the people" mentality we wail about into lawmaking. Think about it, an Administration that moves with blinding speed, getting more done in a year than the last century.
"Hi. We're Comcast. We're going to throttle torrents."
"Internet Law 2.01. Sudo No you're not. Go away. Next!"
"Hi. We're MPAA. We're going to throw those pirates in jail for copyright theft."
"Copyright Extension Act is repealed. Oh look, how many works are now in public domain! Disney, yes we know about the Mouse, here's a coupon."
But it only works ONCE.
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
Police are clearing out the park so that the owners can clean it.
Once they are done cleaning it, the protesters will be allowed back in so long as they do not bring tents, sleeping bags, etc.
You might have a few recent revolutions. Egypt, Tunesia, ...
"The way I've always seen it is once you start calling people names or nitpicking spelling and grammar you've already lost your argument."
Funny, when the Government starts calling you a Terrorist Threat to Children and Copyrights they win the argument.
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
"The only attention these knoblickers are attracting by sleeping in a New York park is from the rats and the homeless."
If that was true then why do they dominate the news, and why are they being ejected??
Logic tells me, their judgement is better than yours and thus you are the knoblicker.
The powers that be must be marched to the guillotine and their heads must be removed.
And no, I am not joking.
Occupying *is* peaceful protest
It's called a sit-in. Just like in Greensboro North Carolina and Jackson Mississippi in the 1960's civil rights movement which resulted in desegregation of lunch counters.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greensboro_sit-ins
Government has just gotten better at sweeping protesters under the rug and stifling media coverage by designating areas away from the target of the protests as "free speech zones".
It's a backhanded way of doing it, but it's pretty clear that what's going on is a violation of the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment.
I find it ironic that the Tea Party is portrayed as "Right Wing" and the Occupy movement is portrayed as "Left Wing" when both groups have the same goal of throwing corrupt scoundrels out of public office.
I think that characterization has more owed to Sarah Palin seeing a parade and running to get her baton and march in front of it as if she were leading. Ironically, her doing that has protected the Tea Party somewhat under the political shield of a former vice presidential candidate, which has required that they be taken seriously.
You would think that some other savvy politician would take the same approach for the Occupy movement to advance their agenda, as Palin did.
with the Tea Party.
-- Terry
How about using the donated money to rent out a large mall of some sort and have a protest on its premises? Or would it be to hypocritical to protest corporations by using one as a podium?
You can't handle the truth.
Because most Americans are actually pretty OK with everything he did and don't actually consider it as wrong.
May the Maths Be with you!
Just a couple examples of the corruption that needs to be exposed.
The preceding post was not a Slashvertisement.
Americans are completely and utterly blind to the mis-deeds of their politicians as well as the abuse of their rights by said politiciams
Not at all. Americans as individuals are mostly POWERLESS to do anything about the misdeeds.
About the only power they have is where they spend their money. And with modern cell phones - the citizens could be empowered.
1) The Armed forces over in Afghanistan are taking pictures of people and using facial recognition to ID people. You can't choose to deal/not deal with someone due to race/religion/sex but if they happen to to work for Gold-Man Sacks....
2) The cameras on portable devices can read UPC codes and hold SQL databases. Compare the UPC code to a database of policies of the firm that makes them - that way if your thing is "is there an active boycott" because you support unions - you can make a different choice or even select that product over others.
3) Note how the rich and powerful are wanting people to do "code enforcement" - the Texas citizen makes reports of illegal car parking as an example. Take the list of the donors to the political parties and encourage citizens to take the cell phones to the political donors properties and compare the condition of the home to the 800+ page 'building code violation' ordinances. (This one is more about showing how the politically connected get special treatment, finding fraud and abuse in the political donation system and pushing for campaign reform.)
1) Because during the day there are thousands of people in the area and they wouldn't be able to do anything without impacting pedestrians negatively. The park is surrounded by tall office buildings and the area has a lot of pedestrian traffic. We blame the military when we impact civilians, the police are doing right by not impacting people that aren't involved.
2) The park is supposed to be closed at night. I don't know the exact hours (and I couldn't find them immediately on google) but you can't arrest people for being there when they are supposed to.
I'm pretty sure that's not true.
You are welcome on my lawn.
The great equalizer will come soon in the form of oil depletion. All of the corrupt politicians, corrupt cops, and their corporate puppeteers will be powerless when there is no more oil. I cannot wait until the day finally arrives when this whole greedy, corrupt, stinking mess called an economy grinds to a screeching halt.
"He is the 1%. The king and his court are hardly going to be advocating for the foundation of a republic are they?"
So is Michael Moore and Elizabeth Warren, the poster children of the anti-capitalist OWS protestors.
I had the opportunity of visiting occupy wall st. a couple of weeks ago for a couple of hours. I don't claim that this makes me some sort of deep expert, but I did get to see it and formed a few impressions.
First impressions were of Manhattan, which I had never visited before. Frankly, my impressions were that the place is a police state. I visited areas of Manhattan far away from #occupy, and there's pretty much a copy on ever street corner. There are also signs everywhere about how you are under video surveillance by the police. When I took the Staten Island Ferry into Battery Park, it was escorted by a literal gun boat. Now, I'm a Southern Boy, and I found myself thinking ... "okay, if I were in Beijing or even London, I wouldn't be surprised. But this is America! What the hell is going on in this place?" It seems to me that New Yorkers have traded there "eternal liberties" for "termporary safety", and they need to take them back.
So, I more or less wandered into #occupy without even knowing that that was where I was heading. Everyone could certainly tell that this old, fat, tired, bald guy with bad clothes was from out of town, but everybody was very courteous to me and eager to tell me about their particular issue(s). Emphasis on their particular and the (s), because there was not one, unified issue driving the place unless it was the feeling that "those in power aren't listening to us." I was approached by people whose primary concern was corporate power, tax reform, fracking, and gay rights in the hour or so I was there.
If I thought the police presence in Manhattan was over the top, around Zuchotti park it was completely over the top. I'm talking cops every ten feet, a portable observation tower with people-tracking radar ... you name it. But, here's the thing. So, near the kitchen, there's a sign that says, "X00 people have been arrested since #occupy began. There will be a meeting to discuss legal strategy at 8:00PM." And, 10 feet from the sign, and 20 feet from a cop, there's a couple of guys smoking pot right in front of God and everybody. Good old southern country boy that I am, all I can think is, "we at least closed the barn door when we did that!" I also wondered, were those umpteen-hundred protesters arrested being persecuted for "sticking it to the man", or were they arrested for smoking pot in front of a cop? Probably impossible to sort out.
So, I hung around for a while, sang a few Bob Dylan and Woody Guthrie songs, grabbed a half-dozen copies of the "Occupy Wall Street Times", and left." All in all, an interesting experience, and the Occupy Wall Street Times might be worth something someday if this turns out to be the start of an "Arab Spring" kind of movement in the US (although I doubt it.)
"He who would learn astronomy, and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere. " -- John Calvin, commenting on Genesis 1
After Watergate, congress passed a law granting them the power to create an independent counsel to investigate misdeeds by the executive branch. During Clinton's term congress abused that authority as much as they possibly could. At the end of Clinton's term the law expired and congress decided not to renew it.
...you asked.
Everyone is missing the point about OWS and the protesters don't help with their publicly stated reasons.
The reasons you hear in the media, although heart felt aren't the real reasons they're protesting.
I saw this coming a couple of years ago. Remember the "NINJA generation" (No Income, No Jobs, No Assets) that was being talked about in the media back in '06? That's them.YOu have a generation that did everything they were told: study, go to college - do what you have to to pay for it, get out and get an entry level job and start the American dream. And contrary to what I've seen on the web, they all didn't go and get Art History degrees; many got what is currently "marketable" degrees. - which is actually a bogus reason since I actually know a couple of Art History majors that have very nice jobs. For example, nursing. Back in '06 -'08, THE major to get was nursing because of the "shortage". Well, a lot happens in a couple of years: this is the WORST job market for nurses EVER according to the American Journal of Nursing. But that aside ...
Then you have well connected assholes are making money risk free on the backs of the taxpayer - thank you Bush Administration!
That is why those kids are there. They did everything "right" and got screwed because they believed what they were told and there doesn't look like there's any future for them.
And stop watching TV - they're getting it all wrong and in the case of Fox - Oh, God! Fox needs to make those kids look bad to keep their old white Teabaggers watching.
Yes, we know. You represent the "peaceful" protesters of the Occupy movement. And when you get done with the powers that be, you will move on to those who have too much money (defined as "more than me"). Look how well that worked during the French Revolution.
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
I'm pretty sure that's not true.
50.1% of Americans voted against him coming back for a second term (and a first one, for that matter.)
It only works ONCE, because what you've just described is revolution, and revolution inevitably becomes tedious and annoying to pretty much everyone - including the revolutionaries themselves. Businesses larger than a sidewalk vendor can't cope with laws that change on a daily (or even a weekly) basis. It's terrible to say, but to a certain extent bad laws that are stable and can be worked around are generally preferable to volatile laws that constantly change in unpredictable ways.
The real key to reforming US politics is to reduce the power of parties to enforce discipline on their members, and reduce them to brand names that let voters know they're likely to be getting a certain bundle of beliefs, without the teeth to force them to support specific positions that go against the best interests of the specific people who elected them.
If you want to know when Congress really started to go down the shithole in recent years, look no further than the "one-vote win" policy that the Republican leadership in Congress began to aggressively follow sometime around the turn of the century -- the policy of suppressing debate, and crafting laws that compromised *just* enough to win by exactly one single vote, and nothing more.
I personally know at least one individual involved in the policy, and in retrospect even they've admitted (privately, years later) that it was misguided. It's something that might be tolerable in a crisis, but in the long run it actually works against the party in power because the disenfranchised 49% ends up being slightly different after every vote, and eventually you end up with a situation where the percentage of voters who regard themselves as "disenfranchised" starts to approach 60-70% (because people forget about the votes that were in favor of things they don't particularly care about, and vividly remember the votes of things they care about passionately). That's exactly what's happening today.
A good place to start the reform might be to look at how the internal power structure of the Senate differs from that of the House of Representatives. The Senate isn't perfect, but it does seem to be a tiny bit more resistant to blind partisan politics (statistically, a Senate Democrat and Republican from the same state are more likely to vote the same way than they are to vote with their party leadership). A good place to start might be allocating committee memberships and leadership via secret Condorcet balloting instead of having representatives elect one leader (almost inevitably and without exception, on party lines) who then proceeds to allocate memberships and leadership positions on equally rigid party lines (with occasional exceptions for "well-behaved" members of the other party). Maybe even throw a complete monkey wrench into the power process by picking a dozen representatives at random and giving them first choice at committee memberships, before anybody else is allowed to bid on them. You don't necessarily want to throw the process into complete upheaval, but rather ensure that at least one key position ends up statistically in the hands of someone would can use it to screw up the neat, orderly plans of the power establishment -- if only to enforce greater debate and compromise. I've come to believe that real debate in congress in a good, healthy thing, and attempts to suppress it by *either* party are bad.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkAWW9CwIRM
Is that really the tack you want to take? It's not that the American people are ignorant, it's that they are actually complicit in the war crimes of their leaders?
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
Update A judge has ruled that Bloomberg cannot lawfully evict protesters from Zuccotti Park and has issued a temporary restraining order against New York City. The order allows the protesters to return to the park until after a hearing on the matter today at 11:30 a.m. from: http://thinkprogress.org/special/2011/11/15/368427/midnight-raid-occupy-wall-street/
Does anyone know if there is an occupy Coronation Street movement?
Eeee by gum,
Wha are we 'ere den?
I don't really know Mavis. I fink we're protesting de soft suffern London shandy drinkers.
Le's go 'ome den,
Right lad.
"That's the way to do it" - Punch
How is ~55 million votes out of a ~280 million population, 50.1%? Does not compute. Population as of 4/1/2000 (http://www.census.gov/main/www/cen2000.html), Voting numbers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2000 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2004). Also, feel free to correct numbers on Wikipedia, aparently, they are wrong with 48.3% for Kerry.
He totally screwed the pooch on illegal immigration, TARP, medicare drug benefit, and just general out of control spending and growth of government.
Oh, you were probably talking about the wars?
Many ordinances these days are actual copyrighted works adopted by governments. You have to pay to get a whole copy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkAWW9CwIRM
I believe the parent is referring to percentage of voting Americans as not all 280 million American can or exercised their right to vote. While your numbers are correct, the basis of your calculation is wrong.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Children can't vote.
That isn't it. The issue is how loud your voice is. The Bible Belt has a larger voice than the moderates, because they constantly feel cornered. Money also gives a loud voice.
For example, even though no one soaks and uses tampons w/ vodka, it was given a loud voice. Everyone is laughing aside those who take it seriously. Just a minor thing.
Umm most American's voted to re-elect him. We are very OK with it.
You Americans need to go Occupy Capitol Hill. Use your freaking guns, the second amendment is there for a reason they won't listen to you sitting in a park, all over the place, in every city I've heard of you'll get moved out and arrested for your peaceful protesting. Don't move, chain yourself down, make a barrier, provoke an attack and counter.
You guys are pussies really when it comes down to protesting. The PD's will use their less-than-lethal weapons on you and you let it happen. As clearly demonstrated, there is no political willpower to change anything, there is no interest from the commercial space to improve your situation. All they care about is when you will move out and in the mean time they'll just vote into law who goes into the Baseball Hall of Fame or whether God should appear on the dollar bill (literally, that's what Republicans are voting on).
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"Americans are completely and utterly blind to the mis-deeds of their politicians as well as the abuse of their rights by said politiciams."(sic)
Yes that is why the new coverage is filled about protesters on both sides Tea Party and Occupy Wall Street. And whenever a politician is caught breaking the law it is posted everywhere.
Ever sense the Nixon Administration the Americans have became obsesses with the mis-deeds of their politicians. Just check out a liberal news source and a conservative new source and you get a good portion of the misdeeds that are done.
The problem isn't as much that we are blind, we are just overexposed and have a hard time really knowing the difference between a president having an extra marital affair or authorizing an illegal wiretap.
The problem is about 50% of the population has below average intelligence, and they are getting more and more information crammed into their heads and a lot of people cannot or don't want to stop the see the big picture and hop onto a small number of sources as the absolute truth while the rest if gives a conflicting message is seen as an utter lie. Debating a middle ground will often get you places as being one of those nazi right winger conservative bible thumping republicans, or those communist left wingers liberal hippy democrats. Just because they will not open their minds to understand both view points and really step back and see their good points and their bad ones.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
"It only works ONCE, because what you've just described is revolution, and revolution inevitably becomes tedious and annoying to pretty much everyone - including the revolutionaries themselves. Businesses larger than a sidewalk vendor can't cope with laws that change on a daily (or even a weekly) basis."
Bullshitt. Businesses can and do adapt to changing laws, as long as they don't attack core business matters. And if changes in laws do attack them then you have other problems anyway.
"Oh they've made their point! They've said what they want!" Really? Because I've looked. I've seen the "official manifesto" posted here: http://www.nycga.net/resources/declaration/ and it is a rambling read of various supposed evils of companies that make them out simultaneously to be complete idiots and extremely malicious villains, but no actual list of demands. To "Clarify" things there is a picture that looks to be straight out of Mad Max Magazine.
Or then on the official site there's this list: http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-ows-demands/. Talk about some of the most stupid, unrealistic demands ever. They want to reduce the workday to 6 hours, yet lower the retirement age to 55 (hint: more work is required to retire since people live longer)? They want a moratorium on foreclosures and layoffs so, you know, nobody needs to actually pay their mortgage, and companies can't get rid of workers even if they must. Then we get some real good ones that show that they've never read the Constitution: "Ban the private ownership of land." "Immediate debt forgiveness for all." "Ban private gun ownership."
So where is this list of very reasonable demands they have? I am not saying find me one guy, I'm saying something from the movement itself. Because I've gone to the official places, and all I'm finding it idiocy.
I'm sorry, 50.1% was intended to be an obvious hip-shot from memory. To get research based about it:
In 2000, 52.1% of voting U.S. Americans voted against George W. Bush.
In 2004, only 49.3% of voting U.S. Americans voted against him.
So, I can see how George W. Bush's actions from 2000 to 2004, in total, could be argued to have won over 2.8% of voting U.S. Americans, although there are mitigating effects such as those people who are pre-disposed to vote for/against a sitting president (I believe the balance still favors for), and the variation in his opposing candidates, which I would characterize as creepy in 2000 vs. un-likeable in 2004.
My point is, not all U.S. Americans are abrasive ignorant jerks - only about half of us.
Neither can black people in Texas and Florida. Man, I wish I was trolling :(...
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most americans? not me. cite please
It sounds like it's time to change tactics. I have a suggestion: use democracy for what it was designed to do.
Our country fought a revolution to give us the democratic right to change. If you are able to find an audience, take petitions, publicize your goals and then elect officials, you can change the policy in this country.
While some votes can be bought, I doubt even the infamous 1% can buy out 51% of Americans.
Many brave people died to bring us these rights, and since then, many other brave people have died defending them. It's not a lost cause to use "the system" instead of giving up on it.
If you know of a corrupt public servant or politician, try reporting them. Many cities, states and government agencies have whistleblower lines like this one:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/doi/html/home/reconize.shtml
Curse my poor memory and google skills. BTW, the phrase you want to google is voter intimidation in America
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
Maybe because, just like you, most Americans are blissfully ignorant of the multitude of crimes Bush Junior committed.
Or, maybe just like you they have no respect for the rule of law.
One day I feel I'm ahead of the wheel / the next it's rolling over me / I can get back on / I can get back on
Anyone who wants to do an illegal protest and then complains about being arrested is a poser. They're all hardcore, but only as long as there's no cost involved.
...and they are certainly not true Scotsman!
I'd be interested to hear the sources that claim there is no press access to Zuccotti Park, considering if you visit any major news outlet website they have pictures / video from early this morning until present. (See CNN front page, etc.)
I wish I could be there but... you know... I actually have a job.
I'm pretty sure you're wrong.
I don't know all the reasons behind it, though part of it is because they don't want people camping in it. However these rules have been around for a long, long time. Like decades. There are other places that don't have the same hours, or don't have hours at all, but the particular park they chose, in downtime, does have hours. They apply to everyone.
Again remember: You don't have a right to do whatever you want, wherever you want, public land or not. As another example the county here operates a gun range. It is public, as anything county owned must be. However there are some rather strict rules for its use. There is a fee (a pretty small one, $8 for a day) and you have to abide by all regulations like ceasing fire when the range master calls it, handling firearms safely, wearing appropriate safety gear, and so on. That it is public doesn't mean you can do whatever you want there. Anyone from the public is welcome to come and shoot, but all rules must be followed. Hours of operation are also a rule among them.
You overestimate americans. This is a country with significant opposition to HPV vaccination of youths because it removes a significant danger of premarital sex, a country with a significant religious minority who believes homosexuals 'deserve' HIV
Snowden and Manning are heroes.
"voted against"
How cute... and kind'a abrasive. You're aware that each half pretty much sees the other half as abrasive, eh?
Or, they're aware those "crimes" are PR fab from the left.
Kind of my point - I didn't say which half was abrasive, or that it even correlates to voting patterns.
However, there are some statistics about voting patterns and ignorance...
It's a set of standards authored by a third party and adopted by a state. I know, screwed up.
Justice Lucy Billings issued an order about this.
At 6:30AM ET, following a 1am police raid that kicked OWS protesters out of Zuccotti Park, Justice Lucy Billings issued an order effectively allowing protesters back in the park, with their tents, gear, and all. "ThinkProgress just spoke to one of the plantiff’s attorneys, Gideon Orion Oliver, who confirmed that the order was served on Mayor Bloomberg and the other defendants via fax at 7:50AM." During his press conference at 8am, the mayor had claimed he hadn't yet been served, and said that this is why the administration was keeping the park closed. ThinkProgress: "As of this writing, Zuccotti Park remains closed to protesters in direct contradiction of Justice Billing’s order."
Not at all. Americans as individuals are mostly POWERLESS to do anything about the misdeeds.
And that's what the establishment wants. If you have, for example, strong unions, or a functioning and responsive political apparatus, society can come together as a collective and shape the future. Those with power are used to decades of shaping the future all by themselves thank you very much.
Instead, the replacement for everyone working together is everyone working for their own (narrow) self-interest, and let Mr. Market handle all the fiddly little details. Voting with your wallet. Of course, Mr. Market has shown to be anything but transparent (or perhaps so transparent/invisible that nobody can see what's going on). Even if a successful boycott is being waged, there's enough people who don't know/care and the potential of somebody else voting with their, bigger, wallet, for Mr. Market to do their bidding instead. Think the RIAA, the major complaints about it, the suspiciously common response "vote with your wallet", and once a whole bunch of little guys started to vote with their wallet, the RIAA blamed piracy instead of adapting to what the customer base wanted.
I think your ideas are interesting. Tools like those would help the little guys to have perfect(er) information, so they could work together for their widely held instead of narrow best interests, even if they're still dealing solely with Mr. Market. (the proper response to products that kill people isn't a marketing campaign alongside a replacement that doesn't kill people: it's regulation to stop people from being killed in the first place)
Individual states do whatever they like with regards to copyrighting their laws.
Have you a citation for this? It's a bit hard to search for certain copyright-related keywords for two reasons: 1. Google picks up "copyright" in the boilerplate copyright notice, and 2. us state law copyright turns up a bunch of references to U.S. copyright law in general, not U.S. states copyrighting their laws.
Actually, the justice department is required to prosecute all crimes that come to their attention, whether the crime is "popular", or not.
Otherwise, almost anybody could shoot Donald Trump.
I'm pretty sure that's not true.
No? Then why would they let the next president do all the same things and not even complain about it?
"Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
--- Jerry Garcia
I'm pretty sure that's not true.
Why? Do you see a park full of people protesting the war policy that Bush started and Obama continues?
The US doesn't formally recognize the right of any international court to *bring* such charges against him. No government with any power to bring them has suggested doing so. Because 'war crimes' aren't something you can just arbitrarily declare someone has committed, even if you think you've caught them admitting to a violation of the Geneva Convention or any other international declaration on human rights / rights of noncombatants. International courts are only as effective as the combined wills of the countries that sit upon them to either 1) Jointly enforce their decisions upon member states or 2) Jointly enforce their decisions upon other countries. No one is going to attempt #2 on the US, particularly over the actions of George W. Bush, and the US isn't going to hand over sufficient sovereign power to make #1 a possibility.
And you want us to do what? Point a gun at someone's head? Your criticisms are duly noted but I'm going to need to be a great deal more angry at my government before I'm willing to kill someone over it. Have a committee? They're powerless, maybe there was even one already but it wasn't even worthy of a footnote.
As for the topic... Yeah, I think the OWS people have been a bit over the top but blocking news coverage... Well, I guess it's not that unusual... The press just needs to be inventive...
http://historywired.si.edu/object.cfm?ID=472
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruth_Snyder#Execution
I'm pretty sure that's not true.
50.1% of Americans voted against him coming back for a second term (and a first one, for that matter.)
You got that backwards. Bush Jr *received* 50.7% of the vote. Perhaps you were thinking of Bill Clinton who did not receive 50% in either election.
http://www.usconstitution.net/elections.html
I found a list of the OWS demands. Here they are:
"Demand one: Restoration of the living wage. This demand can only be met by ending "Freetrade" by re-imposing trade tariffs on all imported goods entering the American market to level the playing field for domestic family farming and domestic manufacturing as most nations that are dumping cheap products onto the American market have radical wage and environmental regulation advantages. Another policy that must be instituted is raise the minimum wage to twenty dollars an hr."
Why do those foreign companies have wage and regulation advantages? Because of the minimum wage and because of the endless regulation of products here in the US. Do you really think that raising the minimum wage to $20/hr will help? No! It will have the opposite effect. Either the company, say a fast food joint, will raise their menu prices to cover the cost of expensive labor or they will lay off the majority of their workers. Either way, the company is doomed. "Demand two: Institute a universal single payer healthcare system. To do this all private insurers must be banned from the healthcare market as their only effect on the health of patients is to take money away from doctors, nurses and hospitals preventing them from doing their jobs and hand that money to wall st. investors." A single payer system is a pipe-dream. Many other countries have tried and they have failed to provide timely and quality care. Am I saying that our current system is perfect? No. Government regulation and the need for tort reform have driven healthcare prices through the roof. Also, banning patients from using private money to get healthcare? Would they also agree that people should be banned from attending private schools? How about private businesses?
"Demand three: Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment."
I just have to shake my head. How would they accomplish this? Where does the money come from? You can't get it from taxes. It is impractical.
"Demand four: Free college education."
You would just continue the current system. Already you can get student loans and not pay them back. And you wouldn't improve anything. For example, say I am a hiring directory in a mid-sized company. I have to choose someone to interview. There are two applicants for the same position. One went to a private college with a good reputation and the other went to the state run college. Who am I going to be more likely to interview assuming their experience and grades are the same? Obviously, the one who went to the private school.
"Demand five: Begin a fast track process to bring the fossil fuel economy to an end while at the same bringing the alternative energy economy up to energy demand."
Let the market run its course. Oil will become harder to find. As the price of oil goes up, other technologies become cost effective. Subsidizing anything does not make it a viable alternative. You also have to look at the alternatives. Most likely it will be electricity. Where does that electricity come from? We could get it from coal, nuclear, oil, or hydro. All of those are unlikely due to environmental regulation. What does that leave us with? Solar and Wind. Both unreliable and non-cost effective sources. Personally, I would buy an electric car if it can have the same performance, range, and refuel time as my current car. I also believe that nuclear and hydro is the best source.
"Demand six: One trillion dollars in infrastructure (Water, Sewer, Rail, Roads and Bridges and Electrical Grid) spending now."
Where does the money come from and what are you going to do with it? Assuming we print it, that will devalue our currency. If we borrow it, that puts us closer to a Greece or Italy type situation. If we tax it, you stifle the economy. And what are you going to do? Replace metal water and sewar pipes with plastic ones? Make roads wider? Build more/replace bridges? Improve the electrical grid? I live in
You don't vote "against" a candidate - you vote FOR a candidate.
By your measure, 51.6% of VOTING Americans voted against Al Gore. I guess neither guy should have been president...
Also, 51.7% voted against Kerry.
Just a stupid measure you're trying to push here. It's also disappointing that you'd classify anyone who voted for Bush as an "abrasive ignorant jerk," as if thinking people cannot have legitimate differences and disagreements.
You overestimate americans. This is a country with significant opposition to HPV vaccination of youths because it removes a significant danger of premarital sex,
I think the opposition is to mandatory HPV vaccinations, something that, really, only Merck wants. They are so anxious to get it that they are even saying all boys should get it too. There are side effects to HPV vaccines - it's not just irrational fear or ignorance. In addition, the actual effectiveness of the vaccine is not as great as advertised. For actual prevention of cervical cancers, it's only about 17% effective.
"Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
--- Jerry Garcia
I love the , if he had nuked the place id be ok with it
You're making the assumption that everyone wants things fixed the same way you want them fixed. Which isn't true.
Godaddy is a scam and a ripoff.
The problem must be that I don't understand the meaning of insight.
Many of us dislike Islam and therefore do not care what is done to its superstitionists. Not so many will say it this directly.
I personally don't object to disposing of Muslims or Communists, because I DO object to the societies they create.
War crime laws are merely designed to get in the way of war and only afffect those who embrace self-restriction. Originally such laws were great for the fapfest of post-WWII victors "justice", but that's all.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
If you want to know when Congress really started to go down the shithole in recent years, look no further than the "one-vote win" policy that the Republican leadership in Congress began to aggressively follow sometime around the turn of the century -- the policy of suppressing debate, and crafting laws that compromised *just* enough to win by exactly one single vote, and nothing more.
That's not really what the problem is. A lot of stuff is reasonable to pass by one vote.
What the problem is that is that none of this happens in the open. It happens that 51% manipulates a bill until enough like it, and they propose and pass it. No debate at all.
Well, let's be honest. That's what the Republicans do. Or, rather, did, when they were in power.
When they're out of power, they oppose everything as a unified block, and nothing can be added to bills to get them to vote for them. And now they fillibuster everything.
I understand a sort of reflexive action to blame both parties, but it's really just the Republicans fucking up how an assembly is supposed to operate. The Democrats are doing it exactly right...and can't get anything passed.
If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
First with taking one step back – it was not one encampment that was cleared in the last few days, it was three of the most active: Portland OR, Oakland CA, and New York City NY, as well as several smaller ones. In fact, yesterday the AP ran two headlines: One "Oakland Camp Closed in Crackdown," followed by "Pressure on Syria Grows amidst Crackdown." Even the news media is starting to compare what is happening here, to what governments do to dissidents, rather than dissenters.
Rather than delving into the internals of OWS – though the information on the ebb and flow of their institutional support is there for anyone who wishes to look for it – it is important to point out that Anonymous, and other hacktivists have been early, and forceful, friends of Occupy, and over the same issue, namely that those in possession of the capital system are not really the owners of the capital system, and even the owners of the capital system have boundaries where they cannot legitimately go. This touches in the electronic community to issues of identity, control of currency, the creation of perpetual "intellectual property" grants, and closed source companies using open source without notice, confiscatory judgements against file sharing.
Larger beyond this, is the revolt of the "arab spring" and the fall of democratic governments, replaced by corporate minders, in Europe.
There are three wider points here.
They came like thieves in the night...Bloomberg's Blue Shirts...and robbed us of our rights, and our possessions. All the while preventing reporters from reporting on the scene. Bloomberg, the self-proclaimed number one defender of free speech (pause for gagging), said in no uncertain terms: "yes, you have the right...the right to remain silent. So just shut up and obey". This is only the beginning dear Mayor .0001%. This WILL be your legacy- of repression. But you will NOT succeed. These mayors, governors, city councils, police chiefs, and street cops of America need to realize that it is NOT UP TO THEM whether or not Americans peaceably gather, protest, discuss, or demonstrate. It's up to a document called the US CONSTITUTION. You can beat us and arrest us and tear-gas us, you can try to "permit" us to death....but you can't kill an idea. You can't keep down a people’s hopes and dreams for a better life....for us, and for our kids. America USED to work. The people had work. The system worke (sort of). Hey, EVEN the Congress used to work (sometimes). God knows, it was far, far, far from perfect -but at least we all had some share in the struggles AND the rewards. But somewhere along the way, we lost our way. Because now we have an economy and a political system that seems to work only for the rich. With OWS America has found it’s voice, and that voice demands fairness and justice - for ALL. This land IS our land! AND WE WANT IT BACK! We want our LIVES back! We want our FUTURE back! But it’s much more than just words.... it’s much more than politics..... it’s your freakin’ LIFE, and how you want to live it, and how you WILL live it. Find a quiet place somewhere, and consider this: Each of us has only one brief life....one chance....one roll of the dice....and many choices. The time has come to choose....to risk...and to act. If not now...then when? If not you, then....who? You DO have the power my friend....and the choice IS yours. Don’t let your dreams die...
Americans are completely and utterly blind to the mis-deeds of their politicians as well as the abuse of their rights by said politicians
Not at all. Americans as individuals are mostly POWERLESS to do anything about the misdeeds. About the only power they have is where they spend their money.
Bull. Americans have power over both politicians and corporations, they sadly choose not to use that power.
It is still one person one vote. Votes are the true currency of politics, not money. Money is just one of various tools to influence people. "Occupy" wants the 99% to move from mega banks to credit unions. In a similar manner the 99% could vote against any politician who egregiously enriches corporations at the people's expense. Much like you seem to be advocating that consumers avoid Goldman Sachs, etc. The problem is that people will not vote against these politicians, they will let themselves be swayed by party loyalty, party platform, etc. This is what prevents change. Change will only come about when politicians believe there will be no loyal base when they egregiously vote against the people's interest, that there will be punitive voting for the other major party's candidate. Note some protest vote for a 3rd party but throwing out the incumbent.
You want change, this is what you need to do, no party loyalty if a candidate crosses a line.
You're not living in America. Or at least, not in the majority of America. You're probably living in the little blue corner of wherever you're at. A lot of people agree with his deeds, especially once you sprinkle "muslim" or "islamic" liberally into the object of your sentence. That's the real America that's all around you. It's a place socially engineered over generations to hate and fear the rest of the world, especially those different from the "Western" norm.
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
One of things that amazes me about the US legal system is the ability to attach unrelated "riders" to laws. Cut off the riders and things might clean up a fair bit, or at least slow the spread of corruption and pork-bills.
I'm pretty sure that's not true.
50.1% of Americans voted against him coming back for a second term (and a first one, for that matter.)
You got that backwards. Bush Jr *received* 50.7% of the vote. Perhaps you were thinking of Bill Clinton who did not receive 50% in either election.
http://www.usconstitution.net/elections.html
I think you misread me - I don't like anybody who has been in the President's office in my lifetime. I dislike some more than others...
OWS has made dozens of good points, if you actually read the signs, blogs, notes or anything of their movements they have quite a few things that are very specifically called for. End of corporates being considered persons, end to lobyism, allowing taxing on the wealthy, regulation of banks etc... If you look at the actual movement and the actual protestors, you see more or less a 50/50 of people carrying messages, and people trying to draw attention. The problem is the media likes to focus purely on the attention grabbers, and cut out the people with a message, and then make the statement "It seems like they don't have a message to give".
And whose fault is that? With no organization, no clear organizational message, no organizational spokespeople ... these "attention grabbers" are every bit "actual" members of and "actual" spokespeople for the movement. How can anyone be so naive not to expect that the media would focus on the more "interesting" individuals?
You don't vote "against" a candidate - you vote FOR a candidate.
Maybe you don't, I, personally, have never seen a candidate worth voting for, my vote is "for" the least of evils, and more often "against" the greater.
It's also disappointing that you'd classify anyone who voted for Bush as an "abrasive ignorant jerk," as if thinking people cannot have legitimate differences and disagreements.
I was responding to somebody who was being overly pedantic, if you get pedantic about what I actually posted, I made no correlation between Bush voters and "abrasive ignorant jerks," just that the term can be applied to about half of us. Which half depends mostly on your own personal viewpoints... (i.e. do you consider Talk Radio a source of accurate information from which to form your own personal opinions)
The campers are acting like the 1%. Self indulgent, acting however they feel, believing they are entitled, believing they are above the law, expecting others to pay for the costs that they generate, etc.
... and then go home or get a room when they tire, and then repeat the process.
Camping is not protesting. The city has said the park is open 24/7 and people can protest there. The owners of the park have welcomed protesters. The only thing being prohibited is camping out. The 99% would show up, protest, carry signs, shout, etc
I'm pretty sure that's not true.
50.1% of Americans voted against him coming back for a second term (and a first one, for that matter.)
You got that backwards. Bush Jr *received* 50.7% of the vote. Perhaps you were thinking of Bill Clinton who did not receive 50% in either election.
http://www.usconstitution.net/elections.html
I think you misread me - I don't like anybody who has been in the President's office in my lifetime. I dislike some more than others...
Who said you liked anyone? All that was said was that you misquoted a statistic, or got the subject of a statistical pattern mixed up.
Looks like the effectiveness article you linked was pretty well shot down in the comments in that article, it is clear cut that the vaccine is very effective in preventing HPV, and that HPV is very clearly the major cause of the worst cervical cancer cases.
As far as mandatory, that is where the big pay-off comes, if you got a significant % vaccinated now, you would wipe out HPV for decades and thus minimizing the total number of people getting the vaccine over the long run. This being vastly cheaper, and more effective than just having the well off people getting vaccinated forever.
The problem is about 50% of the population has below average intelligence
I'm pretty sure exactly 50% of the population has below average intelligence...
Umm most American's voted to re-elect [Bush]. We are very OK with it.
This is why the electoral college is a good idea when it comes to the office of the presidency.
I never understood this single-minded obsession with one office when I daresay that the vast majority of people couldn't even tell you who their local and state representatives are (on a non-national level).
"A government is a body of people usually -- notably -- ungoverned." -Shepherd Book
Actually, the justice department is required to prosecute all crimes that come to their attention, whether the crime is "popular", or not.
No it isn't. Unless you don't think that Amnesty International's (among others') complaints about GW Bush's admitting to international war crimes has any merits.
"A government is a body of people usually -- notably -- ungoverned." -Shepherd Book
http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=message_to_cops
Except that making any reforms as you suggest will rely on the cooperation of the very parties that are enforcing the current system - because it keeps them in power. Any threat to their grasp on political power is going to fail by default. The rich and powerful who control the politicians are not going to allow the rest of the masses to make changes that lessen their power gracefully.
"The first time I got drunk, I got married. The second time I bought a chimpanzee, after that I stayed sober" Arian Seid
I got up this morning and I turned on CNN for some noise. As I got ready, they showed the press conference from the Mayor of NY. He was very clear, this park is privately owned but the owners are bound to an agreement to allow 24/7 public access. There are restrictions to this such as no camping etc (which were actively being violated). They can also close the park for cleaning and public health concerns. The owners have completely supported the protesters using the park, and continue to do so. The Mayor stated several times, after it is cleaned, you are welcome to come back, but leave your tents and tarps at home.
You know what else I saw on CNN? Loads of footage of the garbage trucks cleaning up giant piles of garbage and refuse in the park. It looked like a shanty town in a 3rd world country. If there was some sort of media blackout nobody told CNN. If people were in fact kept away, doesn't it make sense that a bunch of extra bodies hanging around just might get in the way of the cleanup efforts?
Go home, let them clean the park, then you are welcome back. That was the message the Mayor gave in the press conference. Somebody please provide a rational argument or facts that they can back up as to why this is a bad thing?
Ok, I guess I'm one of them.
Exactly what war crimes are you insisting that Bush Jr. committed? Who has charged him with said crimes...etc?
I've certainly not heard of any call around the world or the US for him to come to trial for any so-called war crimes. Care to list and cite these?
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
If by "continues", you mean "is (albeit slowly) discontinuing".
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
No it is very difficult to have exactly below average intelligence.
Lets use a small scale example of 10 people.
IQ
108,102,103,101,97,99,98,95,99,98
So 40% of them have an above average IQ and 60% have below average IQ none of them have average.
Now as you add more data points you will see the numbers approaching 50% but unless you are really lucky I doubt you reach it.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
These guys claim to have a list of 269 war crimes attributable to the George Bush Administration.
Canada has refused to consider war crimes charges against Bush because it would "damage diplomatic relations with the United States". I wouldn't be surprised if most of the U.S. allies won't prosecute (or even complain) for the same reason.
Fanatically anti-fanatical
Hmmm, hip-shots and knee-jerk reactions: qualities every voter should have!!
I think y'all done got a flat tire'n your house there, JoeMerchant. You might'n wanna go fix it, 'n' leave the votin' to us edumucated folk.
If by "continues", you mean "is (albeit slowly) discontinuing".
No, I mean continue. For example the Iraqi withdrawal is precisely, to the month, on the original Bush administration timetable.
The problem isn't as much that we are blind, we are just overexposed and have a hard time really knowing the difference between a president having an extra marital affair or authorizing an illegal wiretap.
Clinton was impeached for perjury in a sexual harassment lawsuit, you know, the same kind of harassment that is currently dragging down Herman Cain. Of course, supporters of Cain don't really give a shit, just as supporters of Clinton didn't really give a shit.
Meanwhile, Weiner was forced to step down because he did some sexting with, apparently, women who were open to it. Can anybody make logical sense out of this?
There are also a large percentage of Americans who don't give a shit about illegal wiretaps if they think it's keeping us safe from terrorists. Even Obama gave the illegal wiretaps a free pass (immunity) when he had the chance to vote on it, despite previous campaign pledges to hold people accountable.
Looks like the effectiveness article you linked was pretty well shot down in the comments in that article
Yes, because posters in an Internet comment section are always more credible than peer-reviews scientific studies.
As far as mandatory, that is where the big pay-off comes
... for the big pharma corporations. What are you, a shill?
This being vastly cheaper, and more effective than just having the well off people getting vaccinated forever.
No, it's much more expensive, because it's all patented right now. That's the point of the big PR campaign and rush to get the vaccines out there, while they can charge patent-protected prices for it.
"Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
--- Jerry Garcia
A President won't be able to do it. It will take some evil triumvirate to do it - a President who is able to persuade Congress, or a Congress that is willing to rubber-stamp what the President wants to do. We occasionally have the first case (many examples), and every once in awhile the second case. But even in GWB's heyday of rubber-stamp Congress, the Republican-controlled Congress started ignoring what the President wanted to do.
Oh, and things have to be inline with the majority swaying of the Supreme Court, too (or, a Supreme Court willing to be quite flexible about what has standing or not for them to hear, etc).
Police state much.
What war crimes? Though Mrs. Clinton, if she hadn't bought off a federal judge would be sitting in the federal pen right now.
I ask because most people I've heard accuse W of war crimes literally have no clue what a war crime is, or how/when/why it applies and generally are woefully ignorant of reality. Accordingly, using the ignorant standard set by most, just about every world leader involved in war at any time would be guilty of "war crimes." Which really says a lot of the general ignorance spewed by the majority who make such claims.
I'm not saying you're wrong. But I am saying you're running with a massive majority of those who ignorantly make such claims by making such generalized statements. And given this is slashdot, where the vast majority of people are generally completely wrong and ignorant of a subject, the odds are certainly not in your favor.
XXXVIII.
"Rise, like lions after slumber,
In unvanquishable number,
Shake your chains to earth like dew,
Which in sleep had fall'n on you.
XXXIX.
"What is Freedom? Ye can tell
That which Slavery is too well,
For its very name has grown
To an echo of your own.
XL.
"'Tis to work, and have such pay ,As just keeps life from day to day
In your limbs, as in a cell
For the tyrants' use to dwell:
XLI.
"So that ye for them are made,
Loom, and plough, and sword, and spade;
With or without your own will, bent
To their defense and nourishment.
XLII.
"'Tis to see your children weak
With their mothers pine and peak;
When the winter winds are bleak:
They are dying whilst I speak.
XLIII.
"'Tis to hunger for such diet,
As the rich man in his riot
Casts to the fat dogs that lie
Surfeiting beneath his eye.
XLIV.
"'Tis to let the Ghost of Gold
Take from toil a thousand fold,
More than e'er its substance could
In the tyrannies of old:
XLV.
"Paper coin--that forgery
Of the title deeds, which ye
Hold to something of the worth
Of the inheritance of Earth.
E
XLVI.
"'Tis to be a slave in Soul,
And to bold no strong controul.
Over your own wills, but be
All that others make of ye.
XLVII.
"And at length when ye complain,
With a murmur weak and vain,
'Tis to see the tyrant's crew
Ride over your wives and you:
Blood is on the grass like dew.
XLVIII.
"Then it is to feel revenge,
Fiercely thirsting to exchange
Blood for blood-and wrong for wrong:
DO NOT THUS, WHEN YE ARE STRONG.
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
> The Democrats are doing it exactly right...and can't get anything passed.
Well, at the moment, the Republicans can't, either. You could cynically argue that the schizoid nature of Congress today demonstrates that, at this moment, there IS NO real consensus about what Americans want Congress to do, and allowing the worst elements of both parties to openly percolate to the surface in public view is healthier than a situation where either party can be actively harmful to the best interests of somewhere between 40 and 60 percent of voters' interests.
Here's the magic test -- if Congress' leaders, after grandstanding about having the support of most Americans, were able to irreversibly call for new elections to occur at some random, unpredictable date between 60 and 120 days from now (so they couldn't pick a moment of scandal and try to ride it to victory, and had to face the real risk of changing tides between now and then), how many of them would actually vote for it? Not one. A few firebrands who aren't very powerful, maybe... but leaders? None. As much as they bitch about gridlock, there's no way in *hell* the Republicans would risk letting a few more Democrats in (or, god forbid, a RINO or two), and no way the Democrats would risk giving the Republicans an unbeatable majority.
The fact is, Congress is gridlocked right now, and it's probably a good thing. Think about how much good the side you support could do if they were able to, then sober up and realize how much damage the other side could do if they had their chance. Where things are going to get REALLY interesting is when the 99%/Occupy crowd starts skimming off the disaffected casual supporters who were previously clinging to the Teaparty groups as the "not in power party" and start drifting over to the other side. It's already happening -- you can watch the Teaparty leadership get more strident and radical by the day, because the leftern end of the spectrum is walking away and ceasing to anchor them towards the middle. The same thing will eventually happen to the 99%/Occupy crowd... they'll have their surge of centrist support, then the middle crowd will start to get uncomfortable with its most vocal leaders' leftist politics, and drift away (leaving them to become more radical and ardent on the left). Stir, rinse, and repeat.
It's the story of American politics. The Democrats of the 70s and 80s were pretty hardcore on the left, as the middle drifted into the Republican camp. Now the middle has drifted back into the Democratic camp, pulled it back towards the center, and the Republican party has gone floating off into right-wing extremism like they did in the late 50s/early 60s. Rush celebrates the defection of RINOs, and the more leftward Democrats mourn the fact that it's now OK for Democrats to support Alaskan oil drilling.
a number of people are reporting that posts not supportive of #OWS have been wiped from this discussion.
slashdot is such a piece of hypocritical shit.
...it removes a significant danger of premarital sex...
2,800 deaths a year from cervical cancers (%70 of 4,000 total, since the vaccine doesn't even protect against all of them) is hardly 'significant'. For the $400 price tag, I could probably find better uses for that money to protect my kids. Hell, more people die drowning each year. I could use the money for life vests and swim lessons, and it would be better protection. This vaccine is just a push by the pharmaceutical companies to make more money.
Land of the self-identured serf, home of the lily-livered
"Nothing funnier than hearing Marxists complain about the state taking their property #OWS"
Funny how quickly the #OWS crowd went from "Everything belongs to everyone" to "Hey, that's my stuff!"
"Occupiers: The 1st Amendment gives you the right to protest. It doesn't give you the right to take over and live anywhere you want"
my vote is "for" the least of evils, and more often "against" the greater.
Meaning you knowingly and willingly support evil. Since there is always more than two candidates in a Presidential race, you cannot vote against someone. You can only vote forsomeone. If you think none of the candidates are suitable for the job then you write the name of the person you feel is qualified on the ballot, including yourself. Reversing this completely incorrect notion of "Voting Against" will go a long way in getting competent people elected instead of everyone falsely believing they have to choose between two incompetent tools; one in a blue shirt, one in a red one.
Please, name something he did that was illegal or a war crime.
Afghanistan and Iraq were wars declared by congress, so those can't be claimed. Considering that Bush wasn't in battle in those countries personally, I don't see war crimes being relevant.
APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
From the US Constitution: Article. VI.
This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.
Those treaties include the Geneva Conventions, which prohibit 1) wars of aggression, 2) torture of combatants, prisoners, or civilians, 3) deliberate destruction of civilian infrastructure, 4) deliberate attacks on civilians, and a number of other points. The Pentagon, under his direction, was also guilty of multiple deliberate violations of the chemical warfare treaties and biological weapons treaties, in addition to (while not a war crime it would still be an impeachable offense) the anti-ballistic missile treaty and a number of nuclear weapons treaties.
No, the bastard isn't going to be prosecuted, any more than Clinton, Obama, or his father will be, because anyone making a serious attempt at prosecution would be dead within days.
"Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
Rather than give them a chance to fix whatever fire regulations are being broken, they just want to confiscate. They clearly don't care about correcting the situation or acting reasonable, yet they're accusing protesters of the same thing. How exactly are things supposed to evolve past the butting heads stage if things continue this way? It's like trying to deal with the Iraqi foreign defense minister.
No.
First of all, the city doesn't have to do any of that, period. It's not obligated to do anything. The only recourse anyone has against it for shirking what you think are its municipal duties is to go out next time and vote for someone else.
Secondly, it certainly doesn't have to do the more expensive of two alternatives, at its own expense, just because that would be "nicer".
And finally, it doesn't have to do jack squat to improve the quality of a privately-owned park, other than enforce city ordinances.
And indict these fascist pigs for war crimes.
1) The park is being cleared so that it can be cleaned. After that the protesters are allowed to return! Why is this even an issue?
Because some of the protesters thought that "demand #9: clean our laundry while we're protesting" was being acquiesced to, so they left all their tents, clothes, books, food, etc in the park thinking the "cleaning" would clean their stuff and leave it in the park for them to re-occupy.
Protest Hollywood and the NFL instead! Those are the people who make disproportionately huge amounts of money for extremely small contributions.
If you hear cities talk about NFL, it's like sporting arenas and events are like city-level advertising. They supposedly bring a one-time (per event) influx of outside dollars to area restaurants, bars, and hotels that politicians think makes up for the cost of building the money sinks that are sports arenas. Maybe there is a net-positive, but I see a lot of waste just for trading cash from city to city every weekend (and a lot of cash going to the "advertisers" (sporting industry).
Wall Street did not get us into this recession. That was the government. Companies can be vicious, but they are essentially big dumb animals. They act in their best interest given their environment. When the government declared that more people should be able to buy homes, it created a bubble
And the media. Frankly, the housing bubble couldn't have had as big an impact as what we've seen. The media is largely to blame for the spread of the damage. They ramped up the "OMG sky is falling" crap a year ahead of a presidential election, either for ratings, or maybe they knew that people would freak out, but the end result is that people did freak out, and stopped spending, putting the pinch on all sectors of the economy, making more people lose jobs, etc. If the news had just reported with "XYZ banks are losing money with the bubble bursting", there would have been some bank buyouts, consolidation, and a lot less pain overall.
Mainly because the Tea Party crowd wasn't this nasty, vile and violent.
Are you from another planet? The Tea Party showed up to protests with loaded guns and openly making threats. At the Park51 protests they assaulted people just for LOOKING Muslim.
And way to completely ignore the point about the police breaking the laws, too. In Oakland the riot cops deployed flashbangs, rubber bullets and tear gas in violation of their own policies, which breaches their requirement to publish accurate use-of-force guidelines. In New York they kettled protesters. In Tennessee they violated court orders to allow the protests.
Your perspective is ludicrously one-sided. You ignore blatant violations by groups you like (the police and the Tea Party) while overstating and distorting crimes committed by anyone associated with a group you don't like. Congratulations on fully internalizing a distorted and amoral worldview, shitbag.
But they're not allowed to have backpacks or tents. I'm wondering if Bloomberg and the police are trying to provoke violence by all of this.
Anything else is pipe dreams. Notice they have not burned alive any more women and children sense McVeigh gave them a lesson.
Oh I know its a kawinky dink.
The vast majority of people in the world have an above average (mean) number of limbs.
~Anguirel (lit. Living Star-Iron)
QA: The art of telling someone that their baby is ugly without getting punched.
This reminds me of an idea for a web site I had which basically listed reasons not to buy things. The idea was to collect information on flawed products, and companies that abuse their customers or behave unethically. I don't have the time or necessary skills to do it myself, but if anyone wants to try I'd be happy to help.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
"Hi. We're Comcast. We're going to throttle torrents."
"Internet Law 2.01. Sudo No you're not. Go away. Next!"
"Hi. We're MPAA. We're going to throw those pirates in jail for copyright theft."
"Copyright Extension Act is repealed. Oh look, how many works are now in public domain! Disney, yes we know about the Mouse, here's a coupon."
But it only works ONCE.
Interestingly, you've just described arbitrary dictatorship rather than the rule of law.
Read Pynchon.
Because I've gone to the official places, and all I'm finding it idiocy.
Notice in the URL you provided the word "forum". The word forum indicates a place where anyone can go and post whatever BS they feel like posting. Forums work pretty much exactly the same way Slashdot comments work except the AC's get to post the top stories.
In this case the this is "bchang1987"s opinion of what the demands should be and the comment even carries the disclaimer at the top "This content is user submitted and not an official statement". Those demands are, in fact, pretty stupid and would be blocked in a second if they ever would come before the GA.
So no, this is not the official demands. FYI, the General Assembly has yet to reach consensus on the formal demands, that's why you can't find any.
People fault the movement for not having demands. To that I say: "Just because we don't have all the answers, doesn't mean that we can't ask the questions."
"Not complain about it"??
Are you a fucking imbecile? Can you honestly say that there has been a president in our lifetime about which there has been as much complaining as there has been about Obama?
No, don't answer the question. I already know you're a fucking imbecile, Curunir_wolf. Your answer would only be further confirmation.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Hell yes, all the time.
Was that a trick question? There have been substantial and ongoing protests against the war policy that Bush started and Obama continues.
If you think the people who protested Bush's policy have given Obama a break, you need to take another look.
You are welcome on my lawn.
> Except that making any reforms as you suggest will rely on the cooperation of the very parties that are enforcing the current system - because it keeps them in power
With appropriate deference and respect to Isaac Asimov, "Enter, the Mule" -- the slightly-Autistic guy from a wealthy, powerful family (or wildly-successful dotcom company) who accidentally winds up in a position of real power (or has enough wealth to throw monkey wrenches into the political establishment for kicks and giggles). No, I can't think of anyone specific... but he (or she) is out there, somewhere, and will statistically show up at some point over the next 25-35 years (it's been a few decades since the last time we had a Mule show up, so we're just about due for another one).
Congress hasn't declared war on either. In fact, the last formal declaration of war made by Congress was World War II.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_war_by_the_United_States
I'm fairly certain that it doesn't matter either way to all of the people that have died, nor to their families and loved ones.
Regards,
dj
Try actually reading the report rather than cherry picking the single lowest number to prove your point. The results in the journal are actually significantly more detailed than you are picking and are nowhere near as damning as you claim. That said, I'm reading it from a hospital so I don't know if you can access the entire report.
For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
The best way to protest Govt policies is to print/circulate/use your own banknotes exclusively among your community.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-14774526
Slashdot = Sarcasm
"Not complain about it"??
Are you a fucking imbecile? Can you honestly say that there has been a president in our lifetime about which there has been as much complaining as there has been about Obama?
No, don't answer the question. I already know you're a fucking imbecile, Curunir_wolf. Your answer would only be further confirmation.
The discussion was specifically about war crimes, not general complaints over all. But you can just pretend not to know what I'm talking about if you want to. You seem to keep your head up your ass about a lot of reality, anyway.
"Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
--- Jerry Garcia
I think it works for this, by P.J. O'Rourke:
"The Democrats are the party that says government will make you smarter, taller, richer, and remove the crabgrass on your lawn. Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work, and then they get elected and prove it."
No, actually it won't. What it will do is get the greater evil elected which will then reinforce the need to vote for the lesser of two evils. The only solution is to press for electoral reform from both parties. Americans need to make it clear that it is unacceptable for any politician from any party to be against changing the voting system to something that actually works.
Fanatically anti-fanatical
There's more to "war policy" than just the "withdrawal from Iraq". The withdrawal is on a timetable negotiated with the government of Iraq after the last presidential election, I'm guessing the time table was "good enough" so that it didn't warrant re-negotiation. On the other hand, Obama hasn't invaded any countries in his first 3 years, and that does seems like a significant departure from the Bush war policy.
Fanatically anti-fanatical
The discussion was about Bush's foreign policy. And Obama has been getting shit from Left and Right on foreign policy.
(see Glen Greenwald (L) and National Review(R))
You are welcome on my lawn.
The discussion was about Bush's foreign policy. And Obama has been getting shit from Left and Right on foreign policy.
(see Glen Greenwald (L) and National Review(R))
It was also about "most Americans" being okay with it. Sure, there's always a few critics. But the general tone has been along the lines of "Oh, the President sent drones and killed an American citizen that never even had a trial AND the guy's family? Woohoo! Good for him!"
"Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
--- Jerry Garcia
They no longer call it a declaration of war, but it is the same thing.
APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
Maybe. I have heard some of that, too.
By the way, I'm sorry I called you an imbecile. I know you are not that. I was out of line.
You are welcome on my lawn.