When's the last time you lost data with mysql that was directly attributable to the database, and not to a messed-up query or a hardware or network problem?
If you're losing data from queries, then you're the poster child of just how bad MySQL actually is. Furthermore, do some simple searches on your favorite search engine. Or you can just look at your replies. Data loss from MySQL is extremely common. That's exactly why MySQL has such a poor reputation with knowledgeable DBAs and why, in general, DBAs don't like MySQL.
Years ago, on a modern computer, I saw a spreadsheet take over ten minutes to load and allow Excel to become responsive. It was a massive spreadsheet which literally pushed both Excel and Windows to its limits. Literally it was at the point where the author was extremely limited what he could add to it because otherwise it would load and crash.
That's some scary shit! IT wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole.
Uptime is not the least bit comparable to ACID. The fact this has to be explained means you're way over your head here. If everyone had perfect uptime, we'd likely have ACI-compliant systems.
Threading is the opposite of reliability. That's one of the reasons why IT always schedule periodic reboots of Windows boxes and/or services they run on that platform. When something bad happens to a thread, it can take with it important system and/or application resources, including memory and even locks. Even MS, with some extremely complex recovery code under the covers, has great difficulty here with MSSQL Server - and they have a pretty decent product these days.
As a side note, this is one of the primary reasons PostgreSQL still uses the forked process model. Because with the termination of each back-end comes automatic reaping and cleanup of resources. Not to mention, process isolation.
And yes, I *have* written multi-threaded servers - in c - and they run for months at a time without losing one byte of memory, and without having to kill off threads to reclaim memory lost from leaks.
That last part proves you don't know what you're talking about. And if "kill off threads" is your notion of resource reclamation, then you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about because that wouldn't work in the first place. On all likely relevant platforms, processes hold resources, not threads. So killing a thread doesn't do anything to help with resource management and/or reclamation.
I have created small ACID database systems, back in the OS/2 days, for a highly specialized encryption key management system. Its a tough problem which requires lots and lots of time and even more testing. It absolutely can be done, but what it supports (feature set) will be less than trivial compared to what you get from other offerings which are developed and widely tested. So the comparison is ultimately idiotic.
While I don't think Oracle views Postgres as threat in any definition of the term, they could hamper OS db field very easily, actually:
Wrong. Oracle is on record as stating PostgreSQL is one of their largest open source threats. PostgreSQL is one of the few open source competitors which offers comparable features, tunability, and can actually beat them in performance even up to the high end. Scalability is something PostgreSQL and Oracle share. Oracle still trumps them on the ultra high end and warehousing, but even that's eroding because of companies like EnterpriseDB (hint, its PostgreSQL).
When most users can download a compatible binary from Oracle, who'll care about the genuine "mysql", really? Especially given that mysql technologies are controlled by the same Oracle.
People don't care about MySQL. They care that its brain dead easy to start using and is pretty fast, especially for light loads, with hardly any tuning. Its basically the antithesis of Oracle. So suggesting that a binary compatible polar opposite of MySQL will magically grab mind share is stupidity at best.
3. You'll end up with a product that is mysql compatible, has Oracle features, and is usable "for free". By virtue of being an Oracle, it will compete well against Pg as well. Unlike Pg, it will also provide smooth migration path towards the slaughterhouse with all bells and whistles.
So you end up with a product that nobody wants and still can't compete with PostgreSQL.
MySQL fills a niche which Oracle doesn't otherwise provide a solution. Slapping a binary compatibility layer on top of a product which doesn't begin to address the niche, doesn't address the niche. Anything else is simply delusion and fueling an exodus to PostgreSQL.
Extremely simplistic and nieve view of the world. So nieve, its actually a fairly stupid view.
Soviet: Nuclear weapons. No war.
Extremely close to war, including all out nuclear warfare. Closest known to date.
China: Nuclear weapons: No war.
China is behind Vietnam and Korea. War.
The reality is, the best way to avoid war, both historically backed and statistically validated, is democracy. The probability of two democratic countries going to war is extremely low. It almost never happens. Next, the probability of a democratic country and a non-democratic country going to war is still low but does periodically happen. Case in point, the current wars. Next, far, far ahead, leaving the other two comparisons in the dust, the majority of all wars, by far, occur between two non-democratic countries.
So if you want to make a comparison, nuclear has nothing to do with it. Realistically, you must abandon non-democratic forms of governance. Statistically speaking, democracy is tantamount to peace. Inversely, non-democratic governance is tantamount to war.
Good 'ol clean coal. For whatever reason, many people today actually believe all coal energy is clean. The reality is, even clean coal is dirty and especially dangerous to coal miners.
IIRC, more people die every year from coal than from the entire history of nuclear energy, even including Chernobyl.
I agree with you, but at the end of the day, many people, such as myself, are more interested in a high performance system rather than pushing an ideology.
Case in point, I literally just spotted a bug in python's socket recv call (as of yet unreported) which leaks memory given the right error conditions. The code hasn't been modified for seven months and the file has existed for many, many years. The only reason I spotted it is because I was looking for very specific but unrelated behavior. Regardless, subtle errors and by association, malicious code, can easily exist for very long times, even surviving multiple code reviews.
The most important thing to remember about the human brain is, it ALWAYS wants to see what it wants to see.
One big difference between work from home and outsourced labor is that you still come together frequently and can come together as long as needed to support the project at hand. Periodically renting a space to satisfy such needs is typically much, much cheaper than full time office space because your needs tend to be specialized and therefore, more limited.
Working from home is not the same thing as outsourcing.
Hardware acceleration is available for both AMD and NVIDIA but is largely limited by whatever software you're running. So for example, flash is only accelerated on 32-bit NVIDIA for now.
Generally speaking, NVIDIA still provides a superior driver experience and NVIDIA still have the far, far superior OpenGL implementation. AMD has come a long, long ways but it will likely be a year or two, or perhaps even more, before AMD can really challenge NVIDIA in both performance and quality on OpenGL/Linux.
For the foreseeable future, NVIDIA is still the only sane option for 3D+Linux. Unless, of course, you're the gambling type.
Could that be because their office space has become so worthless that anywhere else is preferable?
Exactly. Its not like executives are standing in line to give up their large, expansive, windowed offices.
What really needs to happen is more and more jobs need to done remotely. Employees can then have a room dedicated to work. Email, IM, phone/video conference, and periodic in office meetings are all that are required for professionals. Obviously, not everything can be addressed this way. Just the same, the foot print and utility savings can be considerable for a large workforce.
Saying it was human error is like saying I didn't mean to die when I jumped into the shark's mouth. They literally were tempting fate to see how badly they could screw things up by knowingly bypassing safeties and standard operational procedures. And by most of the world's standards, the safeties they had in place were pitiful.
Using Chernobyl as an example of nuclear safety is to declare to the world one knows nothing of nuclear power; and therefore should be completely ignored.
It means your asking basic questions to which you should already know the answer before you interject at this stage of the debate. Its means its far more likely you'll detract from the debate rather than have anything, other than parroting, to offer.
Without wikileaks we wouldn't know that US Soldiers were killing innocent journalists and children
That's factually bullshit. Anyone who actually bothered to turn off American Idol and made an effort to follow the war, absolutely knew stuff like this was going on. What wasn't known was some specific details, and for good reason.
Crazies seem to imply that the government is a giant, nebulous, all knowing, conspiracy monster. The simple fact is, you absolutely can point a finger at idiot reporters for the death and kidnapping of additional reporters, contractors, and even soldiers. Furthermore, you can point a finger at them for a additional civil wars breaking out. The civil war is especially noteworthy because it happened as US troops were actively drawing down and handing over powers to Afghanis. Now keep in mind, I'm not strictly talking about Wikileaks here. In Afghanistan, all too often, weeks could have saved hundreds, if not thousands of lives.
I'm not saying people shouldn't know this stuff. But frequently timing is extremely important. Timing shows the immorality of the reporters involved which is extremely hypocritical given that time and time again people are using these same reports to shake a morality finger at the government while in exchange unethically furthering the reporters involved. All too often, reporters have as much blood on their hands as do the government, but hypocritically, no one seems to care. And that's the problem with Assange/Wikileaks, and the many, many reporters who were absolutely complicit, if not an knowing player, the days which led up to the war.
People are all in a hurry to shake their finger at the reports but are standing in line to turn a blind eye to the massive blood on those same reporters hands. Literally. Its hypocrisy and its disgusting.
Factually, it was well known civilians were dying. Factually, it was well known reporters were dying. Factually, it was well known US troops were frequently involved. But contrary to the crazies around here, it was not a conspiracy to murder them. Factually, this stuff has happened in EVERY war. I'm not aware of a single exception. Anyone who is the least bit surprised is completely disconnected from reality. And in exchange for the previously disconnected and now "enlighten", is additional blood on their hands.
Was propaganda in full swing here? Absolutely! Had it worked, would civilians been saved? Absolutely! Had it worked, would military and contractors had been saved? Absolutely? Was it deception to hide more innocent deaths? Absolutely!
Those who believe propaganda can't save lives or isn't important should not participate in this discussion as they are not the least bit equipped to participate. But to be absolutely clear, I am not suggesting carte blanche, rubber stamp, turn a blind eye. I am suggesting, timing is frequently quantifiable as morality.
You got a peek at 3 interfaces on ONE router processing 30Gb of Comcast traffic (allegedly) and all of a sudden you know how the entire company is operating in enough detail to file a class action lawsuit? Ridiculous...
Where I said:
Seems to me that if this is all true...
. Which seems to clearly indicate you're not only an absolutely idiot, but an idiot troll. Learn to fucking read moron.
News of providing a poor experience to many people which attempting to game the system is never good. Believe it or not, we're talking politics here. Politics is driven by or the lack thereof, knowledge. An informed public is not good for them.
Seems to me that if this is all true, there is certainly grounds for a class action suite here. After all, with them knowingly maxing their pipes, its impossible for them to ever argue good faith efforts of any kind. Its kind of like trying to deliver water past a sieve and arguing I'm working my best to deliver water. Its just not possible.
The pesticide is a seed coating? How frequently do bees come into contact with seeds that are planted? Is this one of those studies where they drench a bee in a thousand times its normal exposure and the bee dies? Or does this residue actually stay on the plant through its entire life and affect the bee?
You raise some excellent points which few people are smart enough to ask. Context is everything in these studies. As an example, Saccharin is often maligned but people frequently fail to point out the majority of its research was indirectly sponsored by sugar farmers and that massive doses were required to cause the negative affects. Likewise, they fail to point out that far, far worse aliments are associated with equal doses of processed cane sugar. In fact, history clearly shows, without fail, everywhere cane sugar is introduced, diseases go through the roof; not to mention, on average, a shorter life span.
Not to mention, uranium is naturally occurring but is typically not a health issue simply because we don't typically come into contact. And then again, we have other products, such as some lines of G.E. corn (wasn't really clear how prevalent it is) which some studies clearly indicate are toxic to mammals when consumed. And yet, its still in our food chain.
'Incorrect facts'? There ain't no such thing, honey. Your analysis is missing key pieces.
You are underscoring the need to work on your reading comprehension skills.
I said:
minority of incorrect facts...The exact number of lies
Meaning, yes, we were told some lies but we absolutely were fed some incorrect information and its unknown, *for the most part*, which was which. Period. That's not to say every lie and/or misinformation is of equal merit and weight. Which I did previously attempt to make clear.
As you're completely irrational about this, and seemingly unable to comprehend what it is you're reading, continued discussion is completely without merit.
As if it were an honest mistake by the Bush adminstration.
And to be clear, my explanation only requires people to be - gasp! - human. And I'm not alone in my analysis. There are literally many, many books, mostly damning of W, which all more or less come to the same conclusions I put forward.
You seem to be under the impression that I'm attempting to excuse everything W did. I absolutely make it clear I am not. Just the same, while he did some egregious things, he's not the devil incarnate as irrational, impassioned people, such as yourself, attempt to portray.
I strongly encourage you to go learn what actually happened rather than the rabid, group-think, bullshit media, mentality, which is almost completely wrong. Its not like its a secret. And in fact, its fairly well documented. But again, as I originally said, its unlikely we'll ever know exactly what was a lie and what was accidental misinformation, or just flat out bad intelligence, all working to create a broken feedback loop. To know for sure means you were a primary player. Since we both know you were not, and to suggest you do know in absolute terms exactly what happened, means you're both delusional and full of shit. Which again, underscores why continued discussion has absolutely no merit here.
Slashdot Mirror
I'm actually not entirely sure what you're talking about, but it doesn't sound like it refutes my statements.
webfaction.com
When's the last time you lost data with mysql that was directly attributable to the database, and not to a messed-up query or a hardware or network problem?
If you're losing data from queries, then you're the poster child of just how bad MySQL actually is. Furthermore, do some simple searches on your favorite search engine. Or you can just look at your replies. Data loss from MySQL is extremely common. That's exactly why MySQL has such a poor reputation with knowledgeable DBAs and why, in general, DBAs don't like MySQL.
That's a great list. One item on the list, "External security provider", has huge security implications for PostgreSQL down the road.
Years ago, on a modern computer, I saw a spreadsheet take over ten minutes to load and allow Excel to become responsive. It was a massive spreadsheet which literally pushed both Excel and Windows to its limits. Literally it was at the point where the author was extremely limited what he could add to it because otherwise it would load and crash.
That's some scary shit! IT wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole.
Uptime is not the least bit comparable to ACID. The fact this has to be explained means you're way over your head here. If everyone had perfect uptime, we'd likely have ACI-compliant systems.
Threading is the opposite of reliability. That's one of the reasons why IT always schedule periodic reboots of Windows boxes and/or services they run on that platform. When something bad happens to a thread, it can take with it important system and/or application resources, including memory and even locks. Even MS, with some extremely complex recovery code under the covers, has great difficulty here with MSSQL Server - and they have a pretty decent product these days.
As a side note, this is one of the primary reasons PostgreSQL still uses the forked process model. Because with the termination of each back-end comes automatic reaping and cleanup of resources. Not to mention, process isolation.
And yes, I *have* written multi-threaded servers - in c - and they run for months at a time without losing one byte of memory, and without having to kill off threads to reclaim memory lost from leaks.
That last part proves you don't know what you're talking about. And if "kill off threads" is your notion of resource reclamation, then you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about because that wouldn't work in the first place. On all likely relevant platforms, processes hold resources, not threads. So killing a thread doesn't do anything to help with resource management and/or reclamation.
I have created small ACID database systems, back in the OS/2 days, for a highly specialized encryption key management system. Its a tough problem which requires lots and lots of time and even more testing. It absolutely can be done, but what it supports (feature set) will be less than trivial compared to what you get from other offerings which are developed and widely tested. So the comparison is ultimately idiotic.
That might possibly be one of the least intelligent things I've ever read.
Can you possibly expound on that statement to explain why it makes any sense whatsoever? Or perhaps explain the relationship between SQL and ACID?
You do realize there are non-SQL ACID solutions already readily available right?
Delusional much?
While I don't think Oracle views Postgres as threat in any definition of the term, they could hamper OS db field very easily, actually:
Wrong. Oracle is on record as stating PostgreSQL is one of their largest open source threats. PostgreSQL is one of the few open source competitors which offers comparable features, tunability, and can actually beat them in performance even up to the high end. Scalability is something PostgreSQL and Oracle share. Oracle still trumps them on the ultra high end and warehousing, but even that's eroding because of companies like EnterpriseDB (hint, its PostgreSQL).
When most users can download a compatible binary from Oracle, who'll care about the genuine "mysql", really? Especially given that mysql technologies are controlled by the same Oracle.
People don't care about MySQL. They care that its brain dead easy to start using and is pretty fast, especially for light loads, with hardly any tuning. Its basically the antithesis of Oracle. So suggesting that a binary compatible polar opposite of MySQL will magically grab mind share is stupidity at best.
3. You'll end up with a product that is mysql compatible, has Oracle features, and is usable "for free". By virtue of being an Oracle, it will compete well against Pg as well. Unlike Pg, it will also provide smooth migration path towards the slaughterhouse with all bells and whistles.
So you end up with a product that nobody wants and still can't compete with PostgreSQL.
MySQL fills a niche which Oracle doesn't otherwise provide a solution. Slapping a binary compatibility layer on top of a product which doesn't begin to address the niche, doesn't address the niche. Anything else is simply delusion and fueling an exodus to PostgreSQL.
Extremely simplistic and nieve view of the world. So nieve, its actually a fairly stupid view.
Soviet: Nuclear weapons. No war.
Extremely close to war, including all out nuclear warfare. Closest known to date.
China: Nuclear weapons: No war.
China is behind Vietnam and Korea. War.
The reality is, the best way to avoid war, both historically backed and statistically validated, is democracy. The probability of two democratic countries going to war is extremely low. It almost never happens. Next, the probability of a democratic country and a non-democratic country going to war is still low but does periodically happen. Case in point, the current wars. Next, far, far ahead, leaving the other two comparisons in the dust, the majority of all wars, by far, occur between two non-democratic countries.
So if you want to make a comparison, nuclear has nothing to do with it. Realistically, you must abandon non-democratic forms of governance. Statistically speaking, democracy is tantamount to peace. Inversely, non-democratic governance is tantamount to war.
Good 'ol clean coal. For whatever reason, many people today actually believe all coal energy is clean. The reality is, even clean coal is dirty and especially dangerous to coal miners.
IIRC, more people die every year from coal than from the entire history of nuclear energy, even including Chernobyl.
I agree with you, but at the end of the day, many people, such as myself, are more interested in a high performance system rather than pushing an ideology.
Case in point, I literally just spotted a bug in python's socket recv call (as of yet unreported) which leaks memory given the right error conditions. The code hasn't been modified for seven months and the file has existed for many, many years. The only reason I spotted it is because I was looking for very specific but unrelated behavior. Regardless, subtle errors and by association, malicious code, can easily exist for very long times, even surviving multiple code reviews.
The most important thing to remember about the human brain is, it ALWAYS wants to see what it wants to see.
One big difference between work from home and outsourced labor is that you still come together frequently and can come together as long as needed to support the project at hand. Periodically renting a space to satisfy such needs is typically much, much cheaper than full time office space because your needs tend to be specialized and therefore, more limited.
Working from home is not the same thing as outsourcing.
Hardware acceleration is available for both AMD and NVIDIA but is largely limited by whatever software you're running. So for example, flash is only accelerated on 32-bit NVIDIA for now.
Generally speaking, NVIDIA still provides a superior driver experience and NVIDIA still have the far, far superior OpenGL implementation. AMD has come a long, long ways but it will likely be a year or two, or perhaps even more, before AMD can really challenge NVIDIA in both performance and quality on OpenGL/Linux.
For the foreseeable future, NVIDIA is still the only sane option for 3D+Linux. Unless, of course, you're the gambling type.
Could that be because their office space has become so worthless that anywhere else is preferable?
Exactly. Its not like executives are standing in line to give up their large, expansive, windowed offices.
What really needs to happen is more and more jobs need to done remotely. Employees can then have a room dedicated to work. Email, IM, phone/video conference, and periodic in office meetings are all that are required for professionals. Obviously, not everything can be addressed this way. Just the same, the foot print and utility savings can be considerable for a large workforce.
Saying it was human error is like saying I didn't mean to die when I jumped into the shark's mouth. They literally were tempting fate to see how badly they could screw things up by knowingly bypassing safeties and standard operational procedures. And by most of the world's standards, the safeties they had in place were pitiful.
Using Chernobyl as an example of nuclear safety is to declare to the world one knows nothing of nuclear power; and therefore should be completely ignored.
Read your contributions. Idiocy and uselessness is an understatement.
It means your asking basic questions to which you should already know the answer before you interject at this stage of the debate. Its means its far more likely you'll detract from the debate rather than have anything, other than parroting, to offer.
Okay, so its agreed you're too stupid to read an article and follow a thread to maintain simple context.
Without wikileaks we wouldn't know that US Soldiers were killing innocent journalists and children
That's factually bullshit. Anyone who actually bothered to turn off American Idol and made an effort to follow the war, absolutely knew stuff like this was going on. What wasn't known was some specific details, and for good reason.
Crazies seem to imply that the government is a giant, nebulous, all knowing, conspiracy monster. The simple fact is, you absolutely can point a finger at idiot reporters for the death and kidnapping of additional reporters, contractors, and even soldiers. Furthermore, you can point a finger at them for a additional civil wars breaking out. The civil war is especially noteworthy because it happened as US troops were actively drawing down and handing over powers to Afghanis. Now keep in mind, I'm not strictly talking about Wikileaks here. In Afghanistan, all too often, weeks could have saved hundreds, if not thousands of lives.
I'm not saying people shouldn't know this stuff. But frequently timing is extremely important. Timing shows the immorality of the reporters involved which is extremely hypocritical given that time and time again people are using these same reports to shake a morality finger at the government while in exchange unethically furthering the reporters involved. All too often, reporters have as much blood on their hands as do the government, but hypocritically, no one seems to care. And that's the problem with Assange/Wikileaks, and the many, many reporters who were absolutely complicit, if not an knowing player, the days which led up to the war.
People are all in a hurry to shake their finger at the reports but are standing in line to turn a blind eye to the massive blood on those same reporters hands. Literally. Its hypocrisy and its disgusting.
Factually, it was well known civilians were dying. Factually, it was well known reporters were dying. Factually, it was well known US troops were frequently involved. But contrary to the crazies around here, it was not a conspiracy to murder them. Factually, this stuff has happened in EVERY war. I'm not aware of a single exception. Anyone who is the least bit surprised is completely disconnected from reality. And in exchange for the previously disconnected and now "enlighten", is additional blood on their hands.
Was propaganda in full swing here? Absolutely! Had it worked, would civilians been saved? Absolutely! Had it worked, would military and contractors had been saved? Absolutely? Was it deception to hide more innocent deaths? Absolutely!
Those who believe propaganda can't save lives or isn't important should not participate in this discussion as they are not the least bit equipped to participate. But to be absolutely clear, I am not suggesting carte blanche, rubber stamp, turn a blind eye. I am suggesting, timing is frequently quantifiable as morality.
You got a peek at 3 interfaces on ONE router processing 30Gb of Comcast traffic (allegedly) and all of a sudden you know how the entire company is operating in enough detail to file a class action lawsuit? Ridiculous...
Where I said:
Seems to me that if this is all true...
. Which seems to clearly indicate you're not only an absolutely idiot, but an idiot troll. Learn to fucking read moron.
News of providing a poor experience to many people which attempting to game the system is never good. Believe it or not, we're talking politics here. Politics is driven by or the lack thereof, knowledge. An informed public is not good for them.
Seems to me that if this is all true, there is certainly grounds for a class action suite here. After all, with them knowingly maxing their pipes, its impossible for them to ever argue good faith efforts of any kind. Its kind of like trying to deliver water past a sieve and arguing I'm working my best to deliver water. Its just not possible.
The pesticide is a seed coating? How frequently do bees come into contact with seeds that are planted? Is this one of those studies where they drench a bee in a thousand times its normal exposure and the bee dies? Or does this residue actually stay on the plant through its entire life and affect the bee?
You raise some excellent points which few people are smart enough to ask. Context is everything in these studies. As an example, Saccharin is often maligned but people frequently fail to point out the majority of its research was indirectly sponsored by sugar farmers and that massive doses were required to cause the negative affects. Likewise, they fail to point out that far, far worse aliments are associated with equal doses of processed cane sugar. In fact, history clearly shows, without fail, everywhere cane sugar is introduced, diseases go through the roof; not to mention, on average, a shorter life span.
Not to mention, uranium is naturally occurring but is typically not a health issue simply because we don't typically come into contact. And then again, we have other products, such as some lines of G.E. corn (wasn't really clear how prevalent it is) which some studies clearly indicate are toxic to mammals when consumed. And yet, its still in our food chain.
'Incorrect facts'? There ain't no such thing, honey. Your analysis is missing key pieces.
You are underscoring the need to work on your reading comprehension skills.
I said:
minority of incorrect facts...The exact number of lies
Meaning, yes, we were told some lies but we absolutely were fed some incorrect information and its unknown, *for the most part*, which was which. Period. That's not to say every lie and/or misinformation is of equal merit and weight. Which I did previously attempt to make clear.
As you're completely irrational about this, and seemingly unable to comprehend what it is you're reading, continued discussion is completely without merit.
As if it were an honest mistake by the Bush adminstration.
And to be clear, my explanation only requires people to be - gasp! - human. And I'm not alone in my analysis. There are literally many, many books, mostly damning of W, which all more or less come to the same conclusions I put forward.
You seem to be under the impression that I'm attempting to excuse everything W did. I absolutely make it clear I am not. Just the same, while he did some egregious things, he's not the devil incarnate as irrational, impassioned people, such as yourself, attempt to portray.
I strongly encourage you to go learn what actually happened rather than the rabid, group-think, bullshit media, mentality, which is almost completely wrong. Its not like its a secret. And in fact, its fairly well documented. But again, as I originally said, its unlikely we'll ever know exactly what was a lie and what was accidental misinformation, or just flat out bad intelligence, all working to create a broken feedback loop. To know for sure means you were a primary player. Since we both know you were not, and to suggest you do know in absolute terms exactly what happened, means you're both delusional and full of shit. Which again, underscores why continued discussion has absolutely no merit here.