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Stuxnet Virus Set Back Iran’s Nuclear Program by 2 Years
masterwit writes "The Jpost article states: 'The Stuxnet virus, which has attacked Iran's nuclear facilities and which Israel is suspected of creating, has set back the Islamic Republic's nuclear program by two years, a top German computer consultant who was one of the first experts to analyze the program's code told The Jerusalem Post on Tuesday. Widespread speculation has named Israel's Military Intelligence Unit 8200, known for its advanced Signal Intelligence (SIGINT) capabilities, as the possible creator of the software, as well as the United States.'"
Stuxnet Virus Set Back Iran’s Nuclear Program by 2 Years...LOIC set Mastercard back 2 hours. Advantage, Stuxnet!
The impression I get is that it was waiting to fall apart, so the malware could have been been a net positive in a "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" sense - potentially literally when you're talking about nuclear energy
Guess what? We're going to be seeing this sort of thing a whole lot more. Compare the expense and risk involved in writing this virus versus firing off cruise missiles or sending planes on bombing missions or an actual ground invasion.
And to beat it all, no-one even knows who was actually responsible for this. Oh yes, the future of modern warfare and sabotage is most certainly here.
Better known as 318230.
"SIGINT" is an appropriate name for this:
SIGINT is the signal sent to a process by its controlling terminal when a user wishes to interrupt the process.
Although I would have preferred one of these instead:
SIGKILL
SIGSTOP
SIGSTFU
Okay, I made the last one up.
What one fool can do, another can. (Ancient Simian Proverb)
to be a wedge issue in the next US elections. /rolls eyes
This takes out a country's nuclear capability for two years. It's bloodless and painless, unless you are an Iranian Atomic Engineer.
SUCCESS!
Just asking.
Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
The Iranians build bombs to destroy people. Their enemies work to to destroy Iran's capability to build bombs.
It's one big testosterone-saturated circle-jerk.
What a lot of wasted effort.
I don't know why people think the only strong suspects are Israel and the U.S.
If you think about it, Russia not only has a number of potential motives (was paid off by one of the other arab nations like Saudi Arabia, annoyed at Iran for some reason, wants to make money selling the "fix" to the problem...), they have countries with many hackers that are well known for ability and also not as prone to speak out about what they are doing as a team (and this was a team effort) of U.S. hackers would be. On top of THAT, Russia also has (had?) engineers on site, which they could have used as an attack vector even unknowingly.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Okay, so the F'n A says that they've been set back two years. The main reason cited is that they ahve to wipe all their machines etc to ensure the malware is gone.
This is where my ignorance on the topic begins... So they have malware that attacks the Iran nuclear facility. It targets them without really hurting anybody else. How can this realistically take two years to clean up? Again, I'm being dense here, but the target is so specific I don't see how they can't just change a couple of things and avoid any more damage. Am I being really dumb or only just kind of dumb?
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
Well I hate the word "cyberwar", but I wasn't really sure what else to call it. It seems that warfare has finally taken place at the computer level. It will be interesting to see where it goes from here..
Personally, I'd prefer war this way. Less lives lost.
Diplomatic discussion on Stuxnet wasn't top secret and would show up in the WikiLeaks cables.
This is one event that we could use secret info being leaked to the public on. (At least for geeks)
The "First post" posts on Slashdot sometimes appear with frightening speed, suggesting the work of a tight-knit group of hackers who might've pulled off Stuxnet as a skills development exercise.
The problem with this approach and other similar forced social and technological engineering attempts by the west against Iran, is that it forces Iran to become more independent and self-reliant. It is true that there is a temporary short-term win, however in the long run it creates a scenario of technological escalation.
Lets review Technological Escalation ala'Iraq:
Attack Vector: IED v1.0 - Road side bomb with detonator fuse wire, bomber hides in near buy building, waits for US tanks to go past, presses red button
US Countermeasure: Train soldiers to look for suspicious packages or mounds of garbage were wire or some such are leading away from mound, once detected fire at location where wire ends up.
Attack Vector: IED v2.0 - Same as v1 but now uses a wireless trigger mechanism based on childrens walkie-talkies to set-off explosive. As before waits for US tanks to go past, presses red button
US Countermeasure: Provide signal jamming equipment on-board all patrols and tanks.
Attack Vector: IED v3.0 - Same as v2 but now uses continuous signal trigger mechanism to set-off explosive. As before waits for US tanks to go past, presses red button, but now signal stops and explosive goes kaboom!
US Countermeasure: Same as before but instead of jamming the signal, all terrestrial signals are replicated, allowing the tank/patrol to pass by without being blown up.
Attack Vector: IED v4.0 - Same as v3 uses continuous signal trigger mechanism to set-off explosive. Signal begin sent is encrypted and uses a random sequence number, As before waits for US tanks to go past, presses red button, signal stops and explosive goes kaboom!
US Countermeasure: Pray...., play crappy rock/death metal music while driving around bagdad.
Attack Vector: IED v5.0 - Same as v4, but now they have time to refine the design of the ordinates, remember the movie coneheads with Dan Akroid? Well it turns out for a really good focused explosion, all you need is a piece of steal in that shape packed with C4, with the pointy end aim at the direction you wish the explosive to fire - Armoured penetration as per and 09' pentagon report is roughly successful 85% of the time.
US Countermeasure: Pray....
Attack Vector: IED v6.0 - Same as v5, but made to be more weather resistant, with added proximity sensors, modern cars aren't made with as much steel and Iron as patrol cars or tanks - so it makes for a good differentaitor which can be use with a proximity fuse.
US Countermeasure: N/A
Do you really want to force your enemies hand like this?
regardless of how awed the media is in the wake of the stuxnet worm, things like this only work once, and only under certain conditions. In any functional nuclear program there exists a very strict information systems security policy to prevent exactly this type of malicious activity from occuring. I also wouldnt be surprised if the "two years" assertion is an overstatement to placate the middle east.
Iran will likely switch from windows controllers for their Siemens PLC's to hardened linux or BSD, taking a page from chinese internet security experts and refusing to trust western code that cannot be independently evaluated. and if we remember the cold war, irans woes feel like washingtons foreign policy from the cold war being flexed all over again
Good people go to bed earlier.
(two thumbs up)
Only an idiot would use Windows for something critical. Only the crown prince of the kingdom of idiots would refine uranium using Windows? Honestly, what would posses someone to do something as absolutly insane as controlling a uranium centrifuge using freaking MS Windows????
... I would argue that this is *proof* that a transparent national defense (as promoted by the pro-Wiki-Leaks crowd) is a very bad idea. Assuming that the U.S. is behind this (a bold assumption yes, but is highly likely), for some-one to "leak" information on this, would be a travesty.
And no: this is not flame-bait ... I just making a "case in point" observation here.
Great - so they were delayed 2 friggin years. Woop-de-doo. Now they'll get it sorted out and get back on track, and the problem is EXACTLY the same as it was beforehand.
There are only two ways to stop Iran from pursuing this - either convince them somehow it's not something they need/want to do, or use military force to make it something they CANNOT do. This did neither.
Frankly, I don't think there is any practical way out of this one. I have a hunch Iran wants nuclear weapons to be able to tell the rest of the world to bugger off - any non-nuclear power is a candidate for invasion, but a nuclear power is a different story and it's a good guess Iran wants to become non-viable as an invasion target. Given that, why would they do anything other than exactly what they say they are going to do - i.e. pursue whatever they want to? They want to be independent and non-dependent - even if they really don't want nuclear weapons, nuclear power is a good option for that and refining their fuel elsewhere just makes them a client state of the rest of the world.
Here's an interesting mental exercise - put yourself in Iran's shoes. Which course would YOU pursue? You've had a front row seat for the invasion of Iraq, been listed (effectively) as an enemy of the US, and you want to ensure your state remains its own state and not beholden to some other power. What is your best option? Trust to the good intentions and honorable behavior of others, or develop your own power/capabilities internally?
Iran probably is a danger due to their radical leadership, but expecting them to act in any interest other than their own, as THEY see it, is a pipe dream. And slowing their program by two years does absolutely nothing to change the larger picture and larger dangers, which play out over decades not years.
If we wanted to take away their toys, we'd just bomb them into the ground. Nope, I bet it's Russia. They like all that cloak and dagger crap. On this side of the pond we favor a more direct approach.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
The argument was that Iran could use the uranium to generate nuclear power ,which is their projects ostensible goal, without Iran getting any of the technology necessary to make a bomb. It never really made any progress.
Oh hey, suddenly this proposal magically looks all the better to Iran! Perhaps Iran is finding out how hard it is to say "no" to a solution a Russian REALLY wants you to agree to...
all at a cost of course.
Now do you see why Russia is a pretty good candidate suspect in all this?
Pardon me, someone is at the door with free tea samples.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
He was purportedly the lead Iranian scientist trying to eliminate stuxnet.
https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010/12/02/world/middleeast/AP-ML-Iran.html
Iran actually would have plausible reasons for blaming *this* on the Jews. :P
Russia maybe not, but Israel definitely (duh!), and the US maybe (Logically, Americans who feel an affinity towards Israel would have that extra reason to be concerned about, and want to do something about, Iran's nuclear behavior)
This action of buying time, whoever did it, could come in very handy.
I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
Yeah, well, that was after you lost the lawsuit and had to pay up. Next time, write better code!
Chaos maximizes locally around me.
Really - does *anyone* out there but Iran want them to have nuclear weapons? Is there a country out there that doesn't at least have one or two decent enough engineers to do this type of work? While many of their engineers may not be immediately trained to do this type of work it isn't *that* hard to do. After all, look at the number of teenagers that do it - they aren't that worldly and have a vast knowledge of the world that a 30+ year old does, they just have motivation to do it. Most then age into engineers that do not do that type of work but excel in more mainstream activities - it isn't like that ability goes away either.
Well, I guess Uzbekistan is probably pretty low on the list, but I bet you can't come up with a country that doesn't at least have two or three capable of doing this (which is all it would take) and would not like to find Iran with a nuclear arsenal. Indeed, I would be happy if it *were* the US that did this as it would be uncharacteristically competent of them. I'll buy Russia or China well before even Israel for the same reason - they would have had to have been hit with the Clue Bat to get this to work out and not be leaked by this point (and no, this has nothing to do with Wikileaks as that has tended to be more an isolated incident that is stirring up all the traffic - though there is a good joke there about secrecy). I would look to, as you say, countries that specialize in this type of thing and that is mostly a short list - however it isn't *that* hard either so I wouldn't limit it to them.
------- Sorry about the spelling, I suffer from two problems. Dyslexia makes it difficult to spell well, lazy makes it
I prefer the Signal Search Group of Veterans (SIGSEGV). They're a bit harder to ignore, and are really good at messing with your memory.
Ask me about repetitive DNA
Take that you maslim heithens!
...is that you, General Electric? Or Siemens?
Now the incumbents could claim with proof -a tenuous proof, if you like- that the opposition is in bed with the US and Israel and against their own country. Nobody likes collaborationists. They managed to set back the enrichment program, but strengthened the hand of conservatives far more. Time will tell if this isn't another pirric victory like in 1953.
Mexico: 100% conservative's America now!
Can the people who made Stuxnet virus be considered terrorists or cyber-war criminals?
Well, the article might be biased.
My original submission had a disclaimer...
Come to think of it that is not my description or quote at all :) Funny. (mine wasn't stellar either)
I just couldn't find any other source at the time...
We should start a new Slashdot and return control to the geeks. It actually wouldn't be that hard to get some users to
Next door Nevada has plenty of pre-excavated sites, where a little nuclear spill would not even be noticed. So don't worry about California's environemntal demands.
When the US Navy shot down the iranian Mecca pilgrims' A-300 plane and Reagan refused to apologize for the 270 deaths, iranians hired the palestinian "Black September" militant organization with a letter of marque and reprise to take vengance in their stead. The result was Lockerbie, which the west so conveniently blamed on Gadhafi's underdog Lybia, west not being strong enough to take on Iran, which just won the 7 year war against Saddam's Iraq.
I wonder if Iran will resort to the palestinian connection again? How many bendy buses with how many pax do you exchange for a nuclear fuel programme on an eye for eye bomb-vest basis? It should also be noted that at least four iranian nuclear scientists were murdered by motor-cyclist bomb planters in the last year, with obvious Mossad clues.
I think jews are playing with fire, because Iran is not a country that ever gives up. In the seven year war against Iraq, iranian kids volunteered to walk onto minefields to clear the way for persian troops. Nobody believed this in the west but the BBC actually filmed kids stating it is their utmost duty towards motherland and islam and they said they wanted to bind themselves in pairs or trios with wire, so they would not run away if scared and bring shame to their families with such a cowardly act.
All in all, iranian people are the scariest possible mixture of russia's extreme battlefield patriotism and japanese self-sacrifical fanatism. Yet, persians are not the dumb and lazy arabs of Iraq, they are good at math and sciences. Attack Iran and you won't need the Maya calendar to end the world in 2012, it will just escalate nicely into WWIII.
As long as the US back 100% Israel no matter WHAT, then Israel can play hardball and completely fuck up the diplomacy in the region, and use the palestinian as their plaything and blame them (if you really want to place a blame, look the number of Palestinian death due to the conflict since 1980, and the number of Israeli death, there is a factor 100 between both). If they could not play hard ball, maybe there would be a normalisation in the medium or long run. At the moment ? No chance. Compound this that blaming Israel is easy for the neighbor countries, because of the palestinian plight, when in reality those neighbor country 1) don't care about palestine, 2) use israel as a rethoric in politic but basically would not care otherwise 3) only a minority of idiot really think those country want to supress Israel from the map face. On the governement level it is mostly propaganda.
So everybody in the region is playing with the Palestinian, either way, even some of the palestinian themselves play hard ball, because if the situation was normalized they would lose power. In the very end, the average palestinian is the one which lose, and lose a big deal. Out of all those death mentionned above, the majority isn't terrorist getting killed by Israel, not by a long shot.
My opinion ? The conflict will not end. Too much itnerrest for everybody in the region to make it go on, even from Israel. My solution ? Remove all palestinian , move them to another corner of earth, say middle of australia, move all Israeli to anotehr corner , like central canada, then transform the whole region in a macadam / glass parking lot so that nobody can ever settle it again, or claim it out of religious ground. Radical, but it would certainly work.
by US and Israel. I think this is why Knesset member Lieberman is so concerned about Wikileaks; something they have confirms this program.
In order to make such an explicit prediction as a "two year delay", that German consultant must have had access to extraordinarily detailed information.
How many centrifuges are in operation.
How many years scheduled to completion.
How many centrifuge-years were lost to the Suxnet worm.
I believe it more likely that the aforementioned consultant was blowing smoke just to bask in the press attention.
Version 1 set the Nuclear program 2 years back, ver 2.0 will eat the nuclear fuel?
We have 2 years before we need to deal with a super power that has nuclear capabilities, and also no respect for any other nation that might think differently then they do.....I will be sure to enjoy as much travel time now, before all hell breaks loose.
There is no reason to believe that your machine and/or network is not equally compromised. Have you verified the code in your motherboards or nic's eproms? Do you know there isn't a trojan or backdoor hardwired in? Did it come from China's intelligence service or a foreign 'consultant' working at the factory? It may just start acting strange one day, and even after you find out the cause, You may never know who was behind it. It is complete foolishness for a country to outsource the foundation of its security.
...than widespread speculation.
Conspiracy Alert!
Stuxnet could be an attempted solution to the Merlin failure.
The virus may have set back a part of Iran's nuclear program -- the uranium enrichment part. But that is not all there is. If you knew the extent of Iran's nuclear capability (and how long they have had that capability), you would be surprised (or alarmed).
The media tells you a different story. That's great for people who want to believe Iran does not already have any nuclear weapons. And they ignore or downplay North Korea and Syria in that area too, while pretending Israel does not have nuclear weapons either. Maybe it's better if most people didn't know about these things.
to the truth is that all of the propaganda isn't working (including the wikileaks psyop) and the bean counters have decided that the public need another two years of conditioning before we will accept an attack.
The new right fascists are bilingual. They speak English and Bullshit.