Looks like "Sir Toby (660923)" shot you down on that one too, using the Backup function restores EVERYTHING to the console as long as it's the same console. he's done it a number of time even with copy restricted items, check his post out, the only time it didn't work was when he got a new console.
Sure I can, it DIDN'T, or did you miss the whole "hey if you erase the hard disk the system works just fine", a crappy and generally unacceptable solution but a solution none the less thing?
They aren't bricks they just no longer like what they see on the hard drive. Wipe or replace the hard disk and the systems work.
Well with the Amiga it's obvious you weren't around for things like Kickstart 1.0, mandatory means in my book means you need the update to run newer titles for the same system and with the Amiga if you didn't have the newest OS software would either not run or would be missing features.
Could they go with a fatter OS sure they could, but the point is not to be booting an OS and saving as much memory as possible by combining the OS and firmware, for example the PSP boots up just fine without having a memory stick in it to boot an OS, because all the functionality is in the firmware.
As for copy protection and protection against non authorized corporate code that has been around for ages even before the CD generation, the Colecovision, NES, SNES, and Genesis all had it in some form or another in very simplistic forms and maybe even earlier as well, all to prevent any Joe Shmoe from creating their own unauthorized content for their cash cows (not that it stopped very many folks) or duplicating their software (also worked around). The whole wobble thing wasn't just to protect Sony's discs but also from stopping basement coders from writing games for the precious system, just like the custom byte strings/circuits in cart based systems.
Also of note you talked about being able to reverse updates well, while wiping the hard drive is completely inexcusable, the PS3 still would work if that was done effectively undoing the damage and not leaving one with an expensive shiny brick. The bottom line is even if they shifted where the load burden was it still wouldn't have mattered since then there would have been a bad OS and folks would have been whining about that. I for one would like to know what went wrong, all the folks talking about testing and stuff is moot when the fact is a lot of the PS3s actually worked when this update went out and had no issues at all, mine for example has been working just fine with 2.4 downloaded and installed it in the wee hours of the morning on it's release day. There was a similar issue awhile back on the 360 where people were cursing MS for a firmware update that they claimed bricked the console, and again that was one that was pulled but there were still folks who had installed that update too with no ill effects (me again). So there is no way the company could have realistically foreseen the issue if all there test boxes updated just fine, since I've heard folks chime in with successful upgrade across the board form the 20GB/60GB PS3 (me) up to the latest 40GB/80GB.
I noticed in what I assume is your defense of systems that did not need firmware updates (correct me if I inferred incorrectly) you listed the Amiga 500 and Amiga 2000, did you buy the later models that already had the Kickstart 1.3 firmware and didn't know that a large portion of them were sold with Kickstart 1.2?
I've had the PS3 since launch (as well as the 360, Wii, and going back in time 2600, Bally Astrocade, Coleco-Vision, Genesis, NES, SNES, Atari 400, Atari 800, Amiga 1000/2000/3000 and the list goes on) and I for one am all for the updates that have come from both Sony and Microsoft because the vast majority added features to the systems I have. Yes there is the fact that they do go in and root out security holes, but without updates there would be many crappy things that wouldn't be corrected that actually affected usability, background downloading for example wasn't in either system when they shipped, so if you downloaded a game from the store you had to wait until it was done or cancel it, that now is fixed on both units, numerous multimedia features added to both consoles which I like and use often, updates to the stores to make them easier to use, updates to network code to fix or prevent issues with multi-player games, a lot of stuff that we would miss out on. Sony's 2.4 update contained things that customers were asking for like the in game XMB access, I could see the wrath of folks if this was just a silly security patch with no payoff but in this case it's not.
But Sony does support backing this stuff up and restoring it to the console so the point is moot. (it's a built in option on the XMB check it out if you have a PS3 and aren't just blowing an opinion out of an orifice)
They added trophy support, in game XMB which allows for sending of chat messages to others online without leaving the game, and selecting new soundtracks and a bunch of things, so there was a reason for this update. You shouldn't base your opinion on what the Wii (which I also own) does for their updates, since the PS3 and 360 (both of which I also own) do updates that do add major functionality, without these updates we wouldn't have had Divx support and a whole host of features that weren't there when any of the consoles shipped as well as bug fixes.
The hardware fix is actually a new heat pipe and heat sink for the retrofitted in the older 90nm systems(yes even some Elite's fall into that category) newer machines however are shipping with a smaller (65nm) cooler chipset. So most likely all the newer bundle ones have the newer chipset. So those are the fixes.
Must be a real pain to work with since EVERY single developer has commented on how easy it is to work with the 360 and how the PS3 requires so much more work to get results. I could get into the insane bablings about both machines but in the end the developers say that the advantages that each one has over the other end up a wash, the systems are basically at the same power level if the strengths of the systems are taken advantage of (which is not currently happening since most of the ports to the PS3 run and look better on the 360). Having all the next gen consoles lets me sit back and watch the war of words between the crazed zealots like you and laugh at the stuff you guys make up.
If they had gone with a larger format (doesn't matter which one) that would have pushed up the price of the system, had slower transfer rates, and delayed the launch, as it did with the PS3. A better idea would have been to scrap the Core system and just sell the premium, garranteing everyone had a harddriveand or letting folks add their own generic drive as you can do with the PS3 (well as long as it's a 2.5" SATA).
It's not really "targeting" since the games work on all of the sets up to 1080P. It would be a different story all together if these titles couldn't run at the other lower resolutions and required 1080P, but they don't. So why not let folks, like me, enjoy the games running at their sets highest resolution as long as it doesn't impact the game?
My problem with my PS3 not having a built in scaler is minor watching it go through the resolution syncing every time I launch something (even at the same 1080P resoulution) is a bit jarring to watching my 360 smoothly go between things. In actual gameplay however I haven't notice any glaring issues or differences with my PS3's HDMI being scaled by the TV over my 360's VGA being scalled internally.
Amen, people like me have a 1080P set and all the current gen of consoles (and the last gen too, and quite a few gens back as well in my closets). I think it's great that people take advantage of 1080P when it makes sense for the game. If you find your game can run fine at 1080P then go for it, if not don't force it, and from what I've seen of the NBA street demo it looks and plays well at 1080P so it was a good decision.
Another poor deluded fanboy arrives. Guess what, I have a PS3 (hooked up via HDMI), Wii (hooked up via component) and a 360 (hooked up via VGA) on a 1080P set and so far the 360 has the best graphics of all the systems out there. I can't believe you had the gall to mention Gears of War in the same post as "shitty 360 graphics", please enlighten me to the PS3 game that has similar/better graphics, I'll buy it, currently on the store shelves there aren't any (I have hopes for "Lair" but we shall see). HD-DVD? I bought my game system for games, but I do have the attachment and I do watch plenty of HD-DVDs and Blu-Ray disks, a distinct advantage of not being blinded by marketing and irrational fear of other systems (also of having a job letting me pay for all of the above). As for sales, well there are 10+ Million 360s out there, 4+ Million Wiis and less than 2 Million PS3s so how about a fact check instead of fanboy rants?
Here's something to try, take off your blinders and actually use all 3 systems and then check back in with reality OK?
The point is as MS guy is saying the PS3/Linux isn't competition for XNA still stands, with software rendering on the PS3 your games will NEVER come close to a XNA game that is using 3D accelerated graphics. Sure you can port your game to a bunch of platforms but it just won't play well on the PS3 an XNA game can on a 360. That is a major liting factor and that is what puts XNA above Sony. It's not about Linux vs XNA it's about Sony stangling Linux's normal freedoms.
Actually I have seen what XNA can do, one of the included games is XNA racer a fully 3D drivng game rendered in 1080P here's a clip of an earlier build running at 720P:
http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/xna/clips-xna-racer-p review-213594.php
so I guess this kills the whole 2D side scrollers FUD argument huh?
Unfortuinately the "it's perfectly possible" statement has been the band-aid for every shortcoming that has been exposed on the PS3.
The MS guy is right, at this moment a PS3 running Linux is no threat at all, and can't be considered competition because you just can't use it to do what they are doing, right now with XNA, period. Hoping that things will change for the better isn't going to cut it. It's fustrating having the wonder box of the PS3 on my shelf that was supposed to bury everything the moment it graced store selves according to Sony only to find the machine in almost every area is unfinished or out right crippled.
Yep it's another smoke and mirrors effort by Sony to give the masses the illusion of freedom, then drain all the air out of the room when people get to close to actually achieving something. "Wow, look I can run Linux!" suddenly becomes "WTF! I can't actually use OpenGL and accelerated graphics to build my games????"
While that may be true, it's Sony that is at fault here for locking the Linux using customers out of the kingdom and leaving us in the slums where se can only look but not touch the riches of the platform. Since they sealed off graphics acceleration there is no real usable way to actually make a functional game on the PS3 that uses it's power. So of course MS feels it's not competition, because it isn't. If Linux running on a PS3 gave you access to the RSX graphics chips and system resources, MS would have to run for cover since there is such a large Linux community and the PS3 would have been a big maintstreamed threat, but in the condition it is now the only games we will be seeing are Mame 2D stuff or anything that doesn't overly tax the 2d framebuffer. Sony needs to get serious and stop half delivering or paying lip service to their promisses.
Linux and FOSS aren't the problem, the problem is Sony's lackluster support for Linux. They cut any homebrew developers off at the kneecaps by not allowing access to the 3d hardware acceleration at all. When Sony changes that then there will be a horserace with development, baut as of now MS gets to sit back and laugh as they provide a workable solution while Sony leaves its fanbase and owners (like me) on cliff.
Only if Sony gives access to the 3d Hardware through Linux, could that happen. Right now you can't get accelerated video at all (2D or 3D) so even a wrapper won't help, if you have to run open GL in software mode.
No the Xbox doesn't run Windows CE, it has a 2000 like Kernal and the front end, they've released Direct X variant (where the name came from) libraries for development, but it sure isn't CE or any of the full blown OSes from MS.
I was talking about the Genesis 2 that couldn't take the Genesis 1's CD Extension and had it's own built for it which of cours couldn't fit on to the Genesis 1. That was one F@#$ up Xmas season trying to explain it to parents and kids when everything says Genesis in big words, I had forgotten about the Genesis 3 (more horror). Oh another option that I had forgotten on the GameCube, the Component output cable another briliant marketing faux-pa. Nintendo removed the capability from the cost reduced GCN to use it, saying only 1% of GCN owners ever bought them. Did it ever occur to them the reason only 1% bought them was that the only way to actually get one was to mail order it from Nintendo? Makes me happy to have one of the original GCNs since I'm one of the 1 percent. well at least it doesn't cause any confusion by actually having it on the store shelves and not work with currently selling game systems (Cough:: PS2 HDD:: Cough), and at least they dropped the price when they dropped features unlike some folks, you know like dropping ilink (firewire) and HDD capability and charging the same price for an obviously cost reduced but much more compact system (you listening Sony?).
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Looks like "Sir Toby (660923)" shot you down on that one too, using the Backup function restores EVERYTHING to the console as long as it's the same console. he's done it a number of time even with copy restricted items, check his post out, the only time it didn't work was when he got a new console.
Sure I can, it DIDN'T, or did you miss the whole "hey if you erase the hard disk the system works just fine", a crappy and generally unacceptable solution but a solution none the less thing? They aren't bricks they just no longer like what they see on the hard drive. Wipe or replace the hard disk and the systems work.
Well with the Amiga it's obvious you weren't around for things like Kickstart 1.0, mandatory means in my book means you need the update to run newer titles for the same system and with the Amiga if you didn't have the newest OS software would either not run or would be missing features. Could they go with a fatter OS sure they could, but the point is not to be booting an OS and saving as much memory as possible by combining the OS and firmware, for example the PSP boots up just fine without having a memory stick in it to boot an OS, because all the functionality is in the firmware. As for copy protection and protection against non authorized corporate code that has been around for ages even before the CD generation, the Colecovision, NES, SNES, and Genesis all had it in some form or another in very simplistic forms and maybe even earlier as well, all to prevent any Joe Shmoe from creating their own unauthorized content for their cash cows (not that it stopped very many folks) or duplicating their software (also worked around). The whole wobble thing wasn't just to protect Sony's discs but also from stopping basement coders from writing games for the precious system, just like the custom byte strings/circuits in cart based systems. Also of note you talked about being able to reverse updates well, while wiping the hard drive is completely inexcusable, the PS3 still would work if that was done effectively undoing the damage and not leaving one with an expensive shiny brick. The bottom line is even if they shifted where the load burden was it still wouldn't have mattered since then there would have been a bad OS and folks would have been whining about that. I for one would like to know what went wrong, all the folks talking about testing and stuff is moot when the fact is a lot of the PS3s actually worked when this update went out and had no issues at all, mine for example has been working just fine with 2.4 downloaded and installed it in the wee hours of the morning on it's release day. There was a similar issue awhile back on the 360 where people were cursing MS for a firmware update that they claimed bricked the console, and again that was one that was pulled but there were still folks who had installed that update too with no ill effects (me again). So there is no way the company could have realistically foreseen the issue if all there test boxes updated just fine, since I've heard folks chime in with successful upgrade across the board form the 20GB/60GB PS3 (me) up to the latest 40GB/80GB.
I noticed in what I assume is your defense of systems that did not need firmware updates (correct me if I inferred incorrectly) you listed the Amiga 500 and Amiga 2000, did you buy the later models that already had the Kickstart 1.3 firmware and didn't know that a large portion of them were sold with Kickstart 1.2? I've had the PS3 since launch (as well as the 360, Wii, and going back in time 2600, Bally Astrocade, Coleco-Vision, Genesis, NES, SNES, Atari 400, Atari 800, Amiga 1000/2000/3000 and the list goes on) and I for one am all for the updates that have come from both Sony and Microsoft because the vast majority added features to the systems I have. Yes there is the fact that they do go in and root out security holes, but without updates there would be many crappy things that wouldn't be corrected that actually affected usability, background downloading for example wasn't in either system when they shipped, so if you downloaded a game from the store you had to wait until it was done or cancel it, that now is fixed on both units, numerous multimedia features added to both consoles which I like and use often, updates to the stores to make them easier to use, updates to network code to fix or prevent issues with multi-player games, a lot of stuff that we would miss out on. Sony's 2.4 update contained things that customers were asking for like the in game XMB access, I could see the wrath of folks if this was just a silly security patch with no payoff but in this case it's not.
Amen, from another triple console owner (just counting this gen).
But Sony does support backing this stuff up and restoring it to the console so the point is moot. (it's a built in option on the XMB check it out if you have a PS3 and aren't just blowing an opinion out of an orifice)
They added trophy support, in game XMB which allows for sending of chat messages to others online without leaving the game, and selecting new soundtracks and a bunch of things, so there was a reason for this update. You shouldn't base your opinion on what the Wii (which I also own) does for their updates, since the PS3 and 360 (both of which I also own) do updates that do add major functionality, without these updates we wouldn't have had Divx support and a whole host of features that weren't there when any of the consoles shipped as well as bug fixes.
The hardware fix is actually a new heat pipe and heat sink for the retrofitted in the older 90nm systems(yes even some Elite's fall into that category) newer machines however are shipping with a smaller (65nm) cooler chipset. So most likely all the newer bundle ones have the newer chipset. So those are the fixes.
Must be a real pain to work with since EVERY single developer has commented on how easy it is to work with the 360 and how the PS3 requires so much more work to get results. I could get into the insane bablings about both machines but in the end the developers say that the advantages that each one has over the other end up a wash, the systems are basically at the same power level if the strengths of the systems are taken advantage of (which is not currently happening since most of the ports to the PS3 run and look better on the 360). Having all the next gen consoles lets me sit back and watch the war of words between the crazed zealots like you and laugh at the stuff you guys make up.
If they had gone with a larger format (doesn't matter which one) that would have pushed up the price of the system, had slower transfer rates, and delayed the launch, as it did with the PS3. A better idea would have been to scrap the Core system and just sell the premium, garranteing everyone had a harddriveand or letting folks add their own generic drive as you can do with the PS3 (well as long as it's a 2.5" SATA).
It's not really "targeting" since the games work on all of the sets up to 1080P. It would be a different story all together if these titles couldn't run at the other lower resolutions and required 1080P, but they don't. So why not let folks, like me, enjoy the games running at their sets highest resolution as long as it doesn't impact the game?
My problem with my PS3 not having a built in scaler is minor watching it go through the resolution syncing every time I launch something (even at the same 1080P resoulution) is a bit jarring to watching my 360 smoothly go between things. In actual gameplay however I haven't notice any glaring issues or differences with my PS3's HDMI being scaled by the TV over my 360's VGA being scalled internally.
Amen, people like me have a 1080P set and all the current gen of consoles (and the last gen too, and quite a few gens back as well in my closets). I think it's great that people take advantage of 1080P when it makes sense for the game. If you find your game can run fine at 1080P then go for it, if not don't force it, and from what I've seen of the NBA street demo it looks and plays well at 1080P so it was a good decision.
Another poor deluded fanboy arrives. Guess what, I have a PS3 (hooked up via HDMI), Wii (hooked up via component) and a 360 (hooked up via VGA) on a 1080P set and so far the 360 has the best graphics of all the systems out there. I can't believe you had the gall to mention Gears of War in the same post as "shitty 360 graphics", please enlighten me to the PS3 game that has similar/better graphics, I'll buy it, currently on the store shelves there aren't any (I have hopes for "Lair" but we shall see). HD-DVD? I bought my game system for games, but I do have the attachment and I do watch plenty of HD-DVDs and Blu-Ray disks, a distinct advantage of not being blinded by marketing and irrational fear of other systems (also of having a job letting me pay for all of the above). As for sales, well there are 10+ Million 360s out there, 4+ Million Wiis and less than 2 Million PS3s so how about a fact check instead of fanboy rants? Here's something to try, take off your blinders and actually use all 3 systems and then check back in with reality OK?
The VGA adaptor list a whole bunch of resolutions including 1920x1080.
Then the battle of the firmware patches to lock us out again will begin.
The point is as MS guy is saying the PS3/Linux isn't competition for XNA still stands, with software rendering on the PS3 your games will NEVER come close to a XNA game that is using 3D accelerated graphics. Sure you can port your game to a bunch of platforms but it just won't play well on the PS3 an XNA game can on a 360. That is a major liting factor and that is what puts XNA above Sony. It's not about Linux vs XNA it's about Sony stangling Linux's normal freedoms.
Actually I have seen what XNA can do, one of the included games is XNA racer a fully 3D drivng game rendered in 1080P here's a clip of an earlier build running at 720P: http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/xna/clips-xna-racer-p review-213594.php
so I guess this kills the whole 2D side scrollers FUD argument huh?
Unfortuinately the "it's perfectly possible" statement has been the band-aid for every shortcoming that has been exposed on the PS3. The MS guy is right, at this moment a PS3 running Linux is no threat at all, and can't be considered competition because you just can't use it to do what they are doing, right now with XNA, period. Hoping that things will change for the better isn't going to cut it. It's fustrating having the wonder box of the PS3 on my shelf that was supposed to bury everything the moment it graced store selves according to Sony only to find the machine in almost every area is unfinished or out right crippled.
Yep it's another smoke and mirrors effort by Sony to give the masses the illusion of freedom, then drain all the air out of the room when people get to close to actually achieving something. "Wow, look I can run Linux!" suddenly becomes "WTF! I can't actually use OpenGL and accelerated graphics to build my games????"
While that may be true, it's Sony that is at fault here for locking the Linux using customers out of the kingdom and leaving us in the slums where se can only look but not touch the riches of the platform. Since they sealed off graphics acceleration there is no real usable way to actually make a functional game on the PS3 that uses it's power. So of course MS feels it's not competition, because it isn't. If Linux running on a PS3 gave you access to the RSX graphics chips and system resources, MS would have to run for cover since there is such a large Linux community and the PS3 would have been a big maintstreamed threat, but in the condition it is now the only games we will be seeing are Mame 2D stuff or anything that doesn't overly tax the 2d framebuffer. Sony needs to get serious and stop half delivering or paying lip service to their promisses.
Linux and FOSS aren't the problem, the problem is Sony's lackluster support for Linux. They cut any homebrew developers off at the kneecaps by not allowing access to the 3d hardware acceleration at all. When Sony changes that then there will be a horserace with development, baut as of now MS gets to sit back and laugh as they provide a workable solution while Sony leaves its fanbase and owners (like me) on cliff.
Only if Sony gives access to the 3d Hardware through Linux, could that happen. Right now you can't get accelerated video at all (2D or 3D) so even a wrapper won't help, if you have to run open GL in software mode.
No the Xbox doesn't run Windows CE, it has a 2000 like Kernal and the front end, they've released Direct X variant (where the name came from) libraries for development, but it sure isn't CE or any of the full blown OSes from MS.
I was talking about the Genesis 2 that couldn't take the Genesis 1's CD Extension and had it's own built for it which of cours couldn't fit on to the Genesis 1. That was one F@#$ up Xmas season trying to explain it to parents and kids when everything says Genesis in big words, I had forgotten about the Genesis 3 (more horror). Oh another option that I had forgotten on the GameCube, the Component output cable another briliant marketing faux-pa. Nintendo removed the capability from the cost reduced GCN to use it, saying only 1% of GCN owners ever bought them. Did it ever occur to them the reason only 1% bought them was that the only way to actually get one was to mail order it from Nintendo? Makes me happy to have one of the original GCNs since I'm one of the 1 percent. well at least it doesn't cause any confusion by actually having it on the store shelves and not work with currently selling game systems (Cough:: PS2 HDD:: Cough), and at least they dropped the price when they dropped features unlike some folks, you know like dropping ilink (firewire) and HDD capability and charging the same price for an obviously cost reduced but much more compact system (you listening Sony?).