Actually, as far as I can tell there is an increasing market for their product. It's just not likely to take over the world. It also isn't a "new" development paradigm, I mean, also in news today, a company has released a program for $40. That's not news, it happens all the time.
But "A bunch of amatures, hobbists and companies have released a free program that works as well as MS IE"? That's news to most non-techies.
Anyway, I'm not really stuck on any one browser, the day FireFox actually offers me a better experiance than Opera (better enough that it outweighs the switching cost) I'll likely switch. Same for IE (unlikely though).
IDK, I seriously doubt that FireFox is poised to take over the market. It may very well hit 25%, but there are too many people who either are lazy, ignorant, actually like IE or don't want to deal with sites that don't work or block them for FireFox to take over entirely.
And if you think FireFox is tempting many Opera users to convert... That's just laughable as far as I can see.
I agree, that's true and fine. I'm not going to use your site. But, why would you block me? So what if it doesn't work right - that's my fault apparently. Maybe in the next version, it would work right, but now you've blocked all users of browser X.
I don't know about your bank, but as far as I know, GMail works fine in Opera 8+.
Basically, Opera always used to put Opera in it's UA string. They would constantly get blocked from sites for no reason (if you used proxomitron and blatently lied to the site to get past the checker, it worked perfectly).
Opera's customers asked for a way to hide that they were using Opera (check the forums, this went on for years). In Opera 8, you now are able to hide what browser you are using completely. Heck, Opera takes care of some of that automatically for you with auto updates.
See, that's why it's good to have choice. My experiance with FF is that it does no more than IE, has the same issues with websites blocking it as Opera, is FUGLY and it's tabbed browsing is like stabbing my eye with a fork - repeatedly. And that assumes I can get the ***ker to even show any tabs at all.
Not really. I've had two friends of mine try ATi cards within the last few months. Both were very unhappy. One had worse performance than a few generations old GeForce they had, the other had their computer not boot with the card - and no video. No such problems on the PC with two different nVidia cards.
I don't need to waste money looking for trouble. Also, I'm still pissed at ATi. They won't see money from me for a while, especially as people I know who have tried their cards have bad experiances. I need some people I know IRL and personally to actually have a good experiance with an ATi card before I will even think of one.
Indeed. I know the Opera can play video, but really, why do we want plugins for streaming video anyway? The ads for the video are in the video stream, so wouldn't it be far easier to have a link that pops up media player or real player or whatever, and that connects to the server, plays the ad and then the content and boom.
So you have ONE program to target rather than 2 or 3 or more browsers js implementations, plus the differences in their plugin implementations etc? Even for the sites it would seem simpler.
Actually, with Opera 8, client side browser detection is pretty useless too, because of one of the most used Userjs - the browsercloak script. For those of us who haven't been using proxomitron already to fully spoof IE or Mozilla when necessary to access a site.
I can't see any reason to use browser detection. Why don't you just make a site that works in all browsers?
I'm still pissed off at ATi for not releasing XP drivers for a card I had when nVidia did. 4 years ago, sure, but I hold a grudge. I do my best to never give ATi any money.
Well, Except many people, myself included, think nVidia cards at the same price range as the ATi cards are equally powerful, but far more stable driver wise, and actually tend to work in Linux (which is big for the geeks).
Personally, I think patent like approaches to anything is a bad idea. Well, without some sort of mass patent reform anyway.
Reducing competition has never improved products in an industry. In the computer industry, we see what happens without competition.
We get microsoft, making products that they don't update for years. Now, if no one but MS could make a web browser, because they have a patent on browsing the web, why would they ever improve IE? It'd be 17 years or so.
I really cannot see what patents would do, or are doing, to help the industry. How does MSs patent on double clicks help mature the industry?
I think I hit on it, your definition of a mature industry is one that no longer innovates, and nothing ever changes (well maybe in 20 year increments when the patent runs out).
Yeah, that's better. I love WindowsXP I want to be running that (without any changes due to no competition) in 2025!
Now, I think our views may be diametrically opposed, but I think any IP monopoly needs to be 1) scaled way back - 5 years max is fine. 2) Opt in, not opt out. 3) Limited to a specific implementation. That's right, no Patents for
"using power and getting from one place to another"
or
"Accessing a computer network"
It needs to be specific to an invention/implementation.
So I'd be fine with patenting
"A two pole with leather connector to allow animal power to move a coach from one place to another"
so that someone could come up with or use a rope, or an engine, or simply walk or pedal without violating the patent.
Also, to fend off some things, I think there should be a grace period of up to 5 years on a granted patent that don't count so you can ramp up production or whatever, but after than - or when you first begin selling the product, the maximum 5 year countdown begins.
Many studies I've seen shows that most products commercial lives is 1 year. 5 times that seems generous.
Well, I guess I have to ask, do you really think the products made by the huge companies you support are superior to the ones made by smaller companies in the software realm?
Because for most products, I have to disagree.
IE doesn't appear to be a better product to me than Opera or FireFox.
Norton AV doesn't appear to be a better product to me than NOD32.
I could go on, but let me now move to programs that likely could violate a patent, but that I don't know of any big companies making competing programs.
AdMuncher, Proxomitron.
GetRight.
And now, to see how the software industry has been working for a long time, if small software houses are crap/cannot compete, why do the big ones keep buying them?
Microsoft has bought just about every product they ever produced.
See Giant Antispyware, QDOS, Visio, etc... Where would these programs come from without the small development houses? Obviously the big guy isn't able to make them, or why would they buy them?
Even Google has began to just buy services. Dejanews anyone? Blogger?
Apple? They took OSS BSD, mixed with bought NeXTStep and got OSX. They bought SoundJam and got iTMS. So they're not doing it.
Adobe is so hard up, they bought a combined software house, Macromedia (and this is the only one you could really claim big software producers work, but I'll bet Macromedia was buying smaller devs).
I could go on forever. The point is, we are seeing 0 innovation from the large software houses. They are (more or less) good at evolution/polishing products, but I haven't seen a revolutionary idea come out of a big company ever that couldn't be traced back to a purchase of a (usually much)smaller company. Or, outright copying. Windows of Mac of PARC research (well ok, that was a big company, but they never planned on selling it, so what was the point?).
IE bought spyglass, now they are taking tabbing from Opera or FireFox, or maybe Excel, depends on their implementation and where you think the actual innovation lies.
That's all right, I use Winamp 2.95. It plays music well, and is FAST on my A64 3400+. Almost instantaneous to load. Plus cool plugins.
Though for movies I use Media Player if I need to change contrast, Media Player Classic if it's real or quicktime, etc... Whatever works for that file. BSPlayer is good for some files.
So, if it was being demoed in 95, where the heck was the product in 96-97??? Why didn't it make Napster a non issue, and iTMS redundant?
Oh, what's that, he never actually made anything that worked? I think patents need to go back to requireing a working product, not some piece of paper with vaporware.
I was going to suggest that both FireFox and Opera also do something similar, but the same response would likely hold. Amazing how being ignorant can make things harder isn't it?
Hey, if we could convince people to use jabber or some designed secure IM, we would. It's just that IMs are limited to those on the same network, so they are only useful if you are on the network your friends use. I've tried converting people to other networks, but the best I've managed is to get some using Trillian as well for somewhat secure IMs.
Has anyone thought about some sort of PKI scheme for the internet at least? You know, a real signature?
And maybe one of those fobs for pins in real life. Say 4 digit PIN + 4 digit FOB#? You know, the ones that change every 60 seconds or so... That way, hopefully with just the FOB it can't work, and with just the shoulder surfing it can't work(well maybe if they are *really* fast).
I don't know, thats not much different than the AC guy charged to come out and fix our central air. And he had to come out twice, charging that much each time (one hour). I don't know how much central air costs, but I also don't know anyone who actually buys the $300 computers. I usually see ~$1000 for a computer. I do know that the furnace repair people charge the same amount, and our furnace also cost about $1000.
So why is it robbery for computer repair men to charge that, when it's ok for plumbers, Heating/AC people etc...?
Well, they'd need to call you every time they wanted to install software and actually have it work in the limited account. I can't describe how difficult this can be (for no good reason) for lots of games and applications - QUICKEN!!!! (Imagine me screaming KAHN!)
Thats fine if it's your first computer. But what about all the programs, games, files etc you might have on your current computer? I have 10 years worth of LWP files - word processor files. What can I do with them on a Mac?
I'm used to using proxomitron to make my web browsing fun. I can't run that on a Mac.
What about my Max Payne II savegame? I don't know if I can port that to a Mac or not, but I'll bet I'd need to re buy the game.
It's not fair, but windows has the software. And till I can run all my software somewhere else, I can't change OSs. And not having my PC work like I'm used to is a big cost. It takes time to learn new software, a new OS.
I find it costs far more than just running a software firewall and using Opera and the free spyware scanners. The browser, firewall and some net savvy protect me from viruses (I run a scanner, and have run different ones, and never found a virus). Ditto for the spyware, though tracking cookies are a pain, so I still run the freeware.
This is from the POV of a "Power User" if you will. Imagine a non savvy user. Will they want to rebuy MS Office? Try and figure out OpenOffice, or use Pages? I seriously doubt it. What I experiance is if the color changes they act like it's broken.
I doubt the ability for many to successfully transition to a Mac.
But what it does mean is that savvy consumers might as well get some highschooler who "knows computers" to do the work for some flat fee - say $50. I know many who would do it.
Slashdot Mirror
mmm, I still believe "You get what you pay for".
Actually, as far as I can tell there is an increasing market for their product. It's just not likely to take over the world. It also isn't a "new" development paradigm, I mean, also in news today, a company has released a program for $40. That's not news, it happens all the time.
But "A bunch of amatures, hobbists and companies have released a free program that works as well as MS IE"? That's news to most non-techies.
Anyway, I'm not really stuck on any one browser, the day FireFox actually offers me a better experiance than Opera (better enough that it outweighs the switching cost) I'll likely switch. Same for IE (unlikely though).
IDK, I seriously doubt that FireFox is poised to take over the market. It may very well hit 25%, but there are too many people who either are lazy, ignorant, actually like IE or don't want to deal with sites that don't work or block them for FireFox to take over entirely.
And if you think FireFox is tempting many Opera users to convert... That's just laughable as far as I can see.
I agree, that's true and fine. I'm not going to use your site. But, why would you block me? So what if it doesn't work right - that's my fault apparently. Maybe in the next version, it would work right, but now you've blocked all users of browser X.
I don't know about your bank, but as far as I know, GMail works fine in Opera 8+.
Basically, Opera always used to put Opera in it's UA string. They would constantly get blocked from sites for no reason (if you used proxomitron and blatently lied to the site to get past the checker, it worked perfectly).
Opera's customers asked for a way to hide that they were using Opera (check the forums, this went on for years). In Opera 8, you now are able to hide what browser you are using completely. Heck, Opera takes care of some of that automatically for you with auto updates.
See, that's why it's good to have choice. My experiance with FF is that it does no more than IE, has the same issues with websites blocking it as Opera, is FUGLY and it's tabbed browsing is like stabbing my eye with a fork - repeatedly. And that assumes I can get the ***ker to even show any tabs at all.
Not really. I've had two friends of mine try ATi cards within the last few months. Both were very unhappy. One had worse performance than a few generations old GeForce they had, the other had their computer not boot with the card - and no video. No such problems on the PC with two different nVidia cards.
I don't need to waste money looking for trouble. Also, I'm still pissed at ATi. They won't see money from me for a while, especially as people I know who have tried their cards have bad experiances. I need some people I know IRL and personally to actually have a good experiance with an ATi card before I will even think of one.
Indeed. I know the Opera can play video, but really, why do we want plugins for streaming video anyway? The ads for the video are in the video stream, so wouldn't it be far easier to have a link that pops up media player or real player or whatever, and that connects to the server, plays the ad and then the content and boom.
So you have ONE program to target rather than 2 or 3 or more browsers js implementations, plus the differences in their plugin implementations etc? Even for the sites it would seem simpler.
Actually, with Opera 8, client side browser detection is pretty useless too, because of one of the most used Userjs - the browsercloak script. For those of us who haven't been using proxomitron already to fully spoof IE or Mozilla when necessary to access a site.
I can't see any reason to use browser detection. Why don't you just make a site that works in all browsers?
What browser? It doesn't appear to work for me on WinXP SP2 with Opera 8.01, the plugin loads, but no video. I press play, and nothing happens.
I'm still pissed off at ATi for not releasing XP drivers for a card I had when nVidia did. 4 years ago, sure, but I hold a grudge. I do my best to never give ATi any money.
Well, Except many people, myself included, think nVidia cards at the same price range as the ATi cards are equally powerful, but far more stable driver wise, and actually tend to work in Linux (which is big for the geeks).
Personally, I think patent like approaches to anything is a bad idea. Well, without some sort of mass patent reform anyway.
Reducing competition has never improved products in an industry. In the computer industry, we see what happens without competition.
We get microsoft, making products that they don't update for years. Now, if no one but MS could make a web browser, because they have a patent on browsing the web, why would they ever improve IE? It'd be 17 years or so.
I really cannot see what patents would do, or are doing, to help the industry. How does MSs patent on double clicks help mature the industry?
I think I hit on it, your definition of a mature industry is one that no longer innovates, and nothing ever changes (well maybe in 20 year increments when the patent runs out).
Yeah, that's better. I love WindowsXP I want to be running that (without any changes due to no competition) in 2025!
Now, I think our views may be diametrically opposed, but I think any IP monopoly needs to be
1) scaled way back - 5 years max is fine.
2) Opt in, not opt out.
3) Limited to a specific implementation. That's right, no Patents for
"using power and getting from one place to another"
or
"Accessing a computer network"
It needs to be specific to an invention/implementation.
So I'd be fine with patenting
"A two pole with leather connector to allow animal power to move a coach from one place to another"
so that someone could come up with or use a rope, or an engine, or simply walk or pedal without violating the patent.
Also, to fend off some things, I think there should be a grace period of up to 5 years on a granted patent that don't count so you can ramp up production or whatever, but after than - or when you first begin selling the product, the maximum 5 year countdown begins.
Many studies I've seen shows that most products commercial lives is 1 year. 5 times that seems generous.
Well, I guess I have to ask, do you really think the products made by the huge companies you support are superior to the ones made by smaller companies in the software realm?
Because for most products, I have to disagree.
IE doesn't appear to be a better product to me than Opera or FireFox.
Norton AV doesn't appear to be a better product to me than NOD32.
I could go on, but let me now move to programs that likely could violate a patent, but that I don't know of any big companies making competing programs.
AdMuncher, Proxomitron.
GetRight.
And now, to see how the software industry has been working for a long time, if small software houses are crap/cannot compete, why do the big ones keep buying them?
Microsoft has bought just about every product they ever produced.
See Giant Antispyware, QDOS, Visio, etc... Where would these programs come from without the small development houses? Obviously the big guy isn't able to make them, or why would they buy them?
Even Google has began to just buy services. Dejanews anyone? Blogger?
Apple? They took OSS BSD, mixed with bought NeXTStep and got OSX. They bought SoundJam and got iTMS. So they're not doing it.
Adobe is so hard up, they bought a combined software house, Macromedia (and this is the only one you could really claim big software producers work, but I'll bet Macromedia was buying smaller devs).
I could go on forever. The point is, we are seeing 0 innovation from the large software houses. They are (more or less) good at evolution/polishing products, but I haven't seen a revolutionary idea come out of a big company ever that couldn't be traced back to a purchase of a (usually much)smaller company. Or, outright copying. Windows of Mac of PARC research (well ok, that was a big company, but they never planned on selling it, so what was the point?).
IE bought spyglass, now they are taking tabbing from Opera or FireFox, or maybe Excel, depends on their implementation and where you think the actual innovation lies.
Etc.. Ad Nauseam.
That's all right, I use Winamp 2.95. It plays music well, and is FAST on my A64 3400+. Almost instantaneous to load. Plus cool plugins.
Though for movies I use Media Player if I need to change contrast, Media Player Classic if it's real or quicktime, etc... Whatever works for that file. BSPlayer is good for some files.
So, if it was being demoed in 95, where the heck was the product in 96-97??? Why didn't it make Napster a non issue, and iTMS redundant?
Oh, what's that, he never actually made anything that worked? I think patents need to go back to requireing a working product, not some piece of paper with vaporware.
I was going to suggest that both FireFox and Opera also do something similar, but the same response would likely hold. Amazing how being ignorant can make things harder isn't it?
Hey, if we could convince people to use jabber or some designed secure IM, we would. It's just that IMs are limited to those on the same network, so they are only useful if you are on the network your friends use. I've tried converting people to other networks, but the best I've managed is to get some using Trillian as well for somewhat secure IMs.
Filetransfer - aren't there all sorts of free ones, say yousendit?
Has anyone thought about some sort of PKI scheme for the internet at least? You know, a real signature?
And maybe one of those fobs for pins in real life. Say 4 digit PIN + 4 digit FOB#? You know, the ones that change every 60 seconds or so... That way, hopefully with just the FOB it can't work, and with just the shoulder surfing it can't work(well maybe if they are *really* fast).
I don't know, thats not much different than the AC guy charged to come out and fix our central air. And he had to come out twice, charging that much each time (one hour). I don't know how much central air costs, but I also don't know anyone who actually buys the $300 computers. I usually see ~$1000 for a computer. I do know that the furnace repair people charge the same amount, and our furnace also cost about $1000.
So why is it robbery for computer repair men to charge that, when it's ok for plumbers, Heating/AC people etc...?
Well, they'd need to call you every time they wanted to install software and actually have it work in the limited account. I can't describe how difficult this can be (for no good reason) for lots of games and applications - QUICKEN!!!! (Imagine me screaming KAHN!)
Thats fine if it's your first computer. But what about all the programs, games, files etc you might have on your current computer? I have 10 years worth of LWP files - word processor files. What can I do with them on a Mac?
I'm used to using proxomitron to make my web browsing fun. I can't run that on a Mac.
What about my Max Payne II savegame? I don't know if I can port that to a Mac or not, but I'll bet I'd need to re buy the game.
It's not fair, but windows has the software. And till I can run all my software somewhere else, I can't change OSs. And not having my PC work like I'm used to is a big cost. It takes time to learn new software, a new OS.
I find it costs far more than just running a software firewall and using Opera and the free spyware scanners. The browser, firewall and some net savvy protect me from viruses (I run a scanner, and have run different ones, and never found a virus). Ditto for the spyware, though tracking cookies are a pain, so I still run the freeware.
This is from the POV of a "Power User" if you will. Imagine a non savvy user. Will they want to rebuy MS Office? Try and figure out OpenOffice, or use Pages? I seriously doubt it. What I experiance is if the color changes they act like it's broken.
I doubt the ability for many to successfully transition to a Mac.
But what it does mean is that savvy consumers might as well get some highschooler who "knows computers" to do the work for some flat fee - say $50. I know many who would do it.
IDK, I like netflix. I get 5 out at a time, with unlimited rentals, and turnaround of 2 days or so.