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Opera: Firefox User Figures 'Inflated'
Anonymous Coward writes "ZDNet
notes, 'The chief executive of Opera Software claimed on Monday that the market share figures for Mozilla Firefox are inflated, due to its support for link prefetching" In addition, "Opera has a better caching mechanism so it doesn't access Web sites as often as other browsers" and "Opera is configured by default to identify itself as Internet Explorer' "
To see folks from Opera trying to denegrate Firefox. You have to stick together to beat IE, then you can duke it out amongst yourselves!
Online penis envy, perhaps?
Opera is configured by default to identify itself as Internet Explorer
who's fault is that?
Aren't you supposed to be swimming somewhere?
I'll swim across the ocean!
The open source community inventing information!
Ce n'est possible!
Firefox is kicking Opera's ass and he knows it. Stop the whining and start competing.
Still, I tried Opera and I find it's interface cluttered and messy. Firefox is much leaner feeling, and has a much better tabbed-browsing implementation, IMO.
Sam
If Opera is identifying itself as IE, isn't IE getting overcounted and Opera undercounted?
And whose fault is that? Maybe if you would default your browser to itself rather than trying to pass itself off as someone else the statistics would show an even deeper drop in IEs marketshare and an increase in your share.
We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
About how their browser identifies itself as IE? A-HAHAHAHA!!!
SYS 64738
"Opera is configured by default to identify itself as Internet Explorer' "
so why not identify yourself as Opera? Why not take a chunk out of IE's numbers and not Firefoxes?
-Teiresias
Now that's just stupid to identify itself as Explorer. It's NOT explorer, it's Opera. If Opera hadn't had made such a stupid remark in their code to do that by default, we would have accurate numbers.
Buggy whip manufacturer calls automobiles a "passing fad".
It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile
Be yourself no matter what they say
If Opera wants to configure their browser to look like IE, that's their loss and they shouldn't gripe that they don't show up as well in usage statistics as Firefox.
Sounds like somebody didn't have their nap this afternoon
Opera is configured by default to identify itself as Internet Explorer
In other words, they provide skewed data that helps Microsoft present itself as leader of the browser market. That's intelligent, way to go. At least you could have picked up a F/OSS browser to masquerade Opera...
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
Bug 55279 tried to fix this five years ago. But the feeling was that Mozilla users were smarter than the average user and wouldn't do this (which may have been true back then). Bug 238159 attempted to address just one aspect of the problem, double-clicking submit forms (which causes tons of race conditions). But again, nobody seems to care.
Slashdot monitor for your Mozilla sidebar or Active Desktop.
It's still Mozilla fetching the page. Unless someone comes up with a metric that counts pages read by human being, the statistics are going to lie, but like accurately.
As any child would say... 'would you like some cheese with that whine?'
The Digital Couture Collection
Like we're going to believe a guy who couldn't even swim the Atlantic.
These are just wild claims at the moment. If he believes that the numbers are overrated, then he needs to look into the data collection methods used. Which I'm not certain why he'd do that anyway. A user who isn't using IE is a user who's more open to alternatives. Inflated FireFox numbers could help adoption of BOTH browsers.
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
Link prefetching influences market share estimates? That is about as ridiculous as the claim that Opera users don't show up in statistics because they set the user agent to IE. How many of the relevant sites which publish statistics even use link prefetching?
BTW, the same could be said about IE but because of another reason... It does visit a whole buttload of pages, which the user never asked it to go to...
I have a really elegant proof for Fermat's last theorem. If this sig was only a bit longer...
I'm not sure, don't most website statistics count an IP address once and call it a unique visit for x number of hours? So how does that count into this? So what, the browser is snagging data from the website before it's needed.. that would only count as 1 hit.. the prefetching i could see, but that STILL gives you an idea of how many users there are out there even if they aren't viewing your site.
.9x series and loved it. But the interface is horribly slow. I do miss the extensions in Opera, but the extremely fast rendering, low memory footprint, and blindingly fast mouse gestures just rock. not to mention you can navigate through just about any page with just the keyboard.
As a recent switcher to Opera. I must say I like it more than FireFox/Mozilla. I had used Mozilla since the
Kyle
http://www.unlogikal.net/
Shouldn't he be preparing to swim the atlantic or something?
Who actually WANTS to be associated with internet explorer?
why the hell would you want your browser identified as IE? you're just telling lazy developers that IE is still the only thing they need to pay attention to. leave it as your actual browser identification and tell them what's what.
Opera isn't over until the fat lady swims
No one really uses it.
Well yea there are some die hards and I am sure it is a great Browser and all. But with firefox as a viable free alternitive without the adds why bother.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
What the heck is this guy von Tetzchner smoking? Doesn't he realize yet that nobody cares about the technical details? People (web developers, plugin writers, users) only care about the big numbers. They don't want to think about the results, they only want to know: who is first, and by how much? Is the second place browser big enough to notice?
Opera is nice, but the Opera execs should realize already that they can't sell their browser when their customers can download a perfectly good one for free.
"There's companies that are just so cool that you just can't even deal with it," - Bill Gates, about Google
Even worse for Opera is the fact that since their browsers are supposed to show up as IE, they are inflating IE's statistics, and lowering their own, in effect, shooting themselves in the foot.
War isn't about who's right. It's about who's left.
Hate 'em. Too damned sour.
...it's all just excuses. Don't get me wrong, I think Opera is a great browser (I constantly have and use konqueror, firefox, mozilla, opera, in this order). Still, these kinds of "arguments" are just pointless and useless. Try something else, something which can make Opera rank higher, 'cause this ain't.
I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
Ok... But still. Firefox has done better. And how are they supposed to conduct a true survey? Go into people's homes and watch what they use?
And... why exactly does it need to do that, in the modern era? Why identify yourself as internet explorer? THERE SHOULD BE ABSOLUTELY NO NEED TO.
Show this to your friends and family that don't know what a real hacker is
..the next version of Opera will identify itself as Opera, prefetch all links, reload pages every 5 seconds, and randomly email links to the Opera download page to present a more balanced picture of market share.
air and light and time and space
Welcome to yesterday morning's news, Slashdot.
While I don't expect cutting edge anymore (and haven't for some time), I at least expect something within 48 hours before the news is old and tired. Things move fast on t3h int4rw3b.
I don't have a particular bias towards or against any browser, but the comments made by the CEO of Opera do make it seem like he is clutching at straws...."A lot of people don't like our ads, which is sad as we don't have a rich sugar daddy like the Mozilla Foundation. They [the Mozilla Firefox team] don't have to think about money as they're being funded. We're not being funded," said von Tetzchner
I mean, come on...is that really necessary? Perhaps he should focus on improving his browser, instead of wasting time and energy (and press exposure) by bashing the competition.
While it's certainly true that Opera's share is way underestimated, because it identifies itself as MSIE most of the times and because it does a wonderful job of caching pages in memory (I'd love the fox to perform just as well), I don't really think FF's share is inflated that much because of the preloading mechanism. It's not used as much as to actually skew the numbers either direction.
I mean, I've just sniffed my own traffic and it didn't even try to prelink anything from Google; so, I haven't looked deep into the config but it's abviously not a default behaviour on v.1.0.4.
Global warming is a cube.
I like Opera, don't get me wrong. It had features back in the day that no one had, and it's still a great browser. Heck, I'm posting this from Opera.
BUT! Opera's unfortunately never going to be taken as a serious contender.
The fact that they force themselves to identify the software to websites as IE should be telling enough. I can't log into my freakin' bank account from Opera. I can't check Gmail from Opera. If it's being seen as IE, why isn't this working?
What's it going to take for Opera to stop this practice and get enough credibility behind it to get this stigma/limitation to go away?
I can't even call local tech support people without someone not knowing what Opera is.
Distance yourself from IE, or being like IE. That's a starting recommendation.
Sounds to me like someone's grasping at straws.
FTFA:
"A lot of people don't like our ads, which is sad as we don't have a rich sugar daddy like the Mozilla Foundation. They [the Mozilla Firefox team] don't have to think about money as they're being funded. We're not being funded," said von Tetzchner.
Rich Suger Daddy?!? No. Firefox users feel generous enough to donate to the foundation to help support a great FREE browser. This type of competition bashing is not good for business.
[n8.r0n] http://petesweb.spymac.net/
Websites can and do treat you differently if you don't use IE. You can either make the web designers feel bad for not supporting other browsers, like Firefox, or avoid the problem by identifying yourself as IE, like Opera. I prefer the latter because it's less work.
(It's never too late to join the Renaissance)
Every Windows machine has IE on it, so it counts, and IE prefetches a lot of gunk you didn't ask for - especially if you don't have SpyBot or AdAware to find the cruft on your system.
But when I use Opera I frequently tell it to pretend it's IE when I surf a site so that it won't give me garbage. I only turn on scripts and popups when I need them on a site, to be safe. But that does count as an IE hit, when it's really an Opera hit.
Firefox I just let be Firefox, since enough sites know how to handle it.
So, it's not so much that Firefox is overreported, as it is that Opera is underreported, and IE is overreported even when I'm NOT USING IT!
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
The head of a company of a prduct competing with a free version says something negative about the competition and this is a surprise?
I think it would have been downright shocking had he said that he felt Firefox was great and was well poised to take over the market. You only get that level of honesty from someone who doesn't have a stake in the game.
...Those grapes were sour anyway.
And this from the guy who said he'd swim from Norway to the US.
Analyzing the ststs from networkmirror.com foe Jun, I see:
Mozilla 77%
IE 18%
Opera 0.78% (sum of all versions identifying themseleves as such)
Opera is a mere blip.
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
This from the maker of a Web browser that by default inflates IE's figures, by coming "out of the box" pre-configured to report itself--not as Opera-- but as Microsoft Internet Explorer!
Remove the plank from your own eye, Opera, before saying Firefox has a speck in its eye. Need help?
It must be Windows. It needs half a gig of RAM and a hardware-accelerated graphics card just to run Solitaire.
See my HTTP Header Viewer tool to see what User-Agent header your browser is actually sending.
EricIdentifying one self as IE when you are in fact Opera is like identifying one self as a small green puddle of goo when you are in fact a Rolex watch. A fake one though... but still useable.
... then why do my non-geek network's browser stats reflect firefox as high as 20%?
Linkage
"The need to build the internet comes from something inside us, something programmed... something we can't resist."
With suitable proxies, you can make Lynx look like Internet Explorer. Of course the wrong service pack will make Internet Explorer behave like Lynx.
If my grammar and spelling are off, I am [distracted/tired/careless] (take your pick)
Opera has a better caching mechanism so it doesn't access Web sites as often as other browsers
Wouldn't it still have to access the sites to figure out that the content it has cached is still valid (otherwise I don't know that I would call it a "better" caching mechanism).
Are all the Opera execs on crack?
How the hell can link prefetching inflate usage numbers? A prefetched page gets logged more than once?
If they want to get credited with accurate usage, their product needs to stop identifying itself as IE.
He mentions in the article that some people don't like the ads, which is true. They could also improve Opera's bizarre (imo) interface.
Just because Opera's statistics are incorrectly represented, it doesn't mean that Firefox's numbers are inflated...
Oops, my bad, I've been moderating sigs.
Aren't all market share numbers hyped?
I bet I have reinstalled Windows 10 times in the past few years, and each time I update IE and download several other software packages over and over again.
And as far as actual web usage, those stats must be all over the place because some sites do a better job of cross browser compatibility than others and other sites, like Slashdot, appeal to a non-IE crowd while still others, like MSN, do not.
So this whole article should really just be a reminder to not believe everything someone else wants you to.
I only came here to do two things; kick some ass, and drink some beer...looks like we're almost out of beer.
I think the "who actually uses it" argument is a good one. As a web developer I have installed IE6, Fx1.1 and O8 and I test on all. I think Opera 8 is a great browser, especially since it's the first to support native SVG rendering, but my regular browser is still Firefox, as I find the ads in O8 at the top distracting.
Of course, this little snippet from Opera isn't a response to the enormous success of Firefox at all, is it? Opera is envious of how Firefox became the darling of the internet community and threads like this prove that they still don't understand why (hint: clean, crisp interface and a lot of word of mouth)
It's odd that the CEO of a for-profit company whines that they don't have a not-for-profit "sugar-daddy" like MoFo. Who funds MoFo? Isn't it a not-for-profit company (I'm not sure if AOL still does any funding there)?
It's also odd that they are whining about setting the user string agent to IE's when they are doing it to themselves.
Something Witty Goes Here
You walk down the street,a nd ask people what the computer program Opera does, you'd get no answer in 100.
You do the same thing with Firefox, and people know what you're talking about as mcu as they don't.
I don't need any hard stats and figures to know that Firefox has made a more profound impact on people and the internet than many other things in a long time.
Pretty Pictures!
Before I'm declared as redundant, I'm trying to clarify the point that has been screamed out already.
What baffles me the most about Opera being identified as IE has nothing to do with market share or overall browser dominance. It confuses me because Opera is written to be standards compliant. I don't care if they identify themselves as The Enemy but I can't see it being any benefit to Opera to associate their browser with one that goes against everything Opera stands for. I would have thought that it would be more likely to identify itself as Mozilla or in its own classification so as to tell everyone "X percent of the market uses the only browser to (soon if not already) pass the Acid2 test."
I'm not confused by the market share, but rather the question of identity and the quest for compliance with standards versus proprietary stagnation.
Perfecting Discordia
www.stevenvansickle.com
Gotta love it. He's saying "they're not as good as everyone thinks they are because they support something we don't! And we have to call ourselves 'Internet Explorer' too!".
I don't have anything against Opera and what he's saying is valid, but it is also kinda funny.
So my non-technical father calls me the other day to tell me all about this new Browser called Firefox that the tech support guy at AT&T (his dialup provider) told him would help with the popups he was fighting against.
This is the first time I have ever heard of a tech support person, save at AOL/Netscape, recommending an alternative web browser.
I only came here to do two things; kick some ass, and drink some beer...looks like we're almost out of beer.
A ZDNet article indicates the prefetching is for Google searches only. I am not sure this would account for a 9 point spread between browsers.
One ring to bind them - should probably have more fiber and less rings in their diet.
...I hereby give you all permission to flame them across the ocean to america and back for identifying as IE by default (and then complaining about it!), because I agree =).
(they have also in every previous instance I've witnessed taken the stance that 'firefox is a fine browser, but opera is better' (which I happen to agree with), so it's uncharacteristic of them to snipe at it... part of me has a suspicion that this is the media sensationalizing everything out of proportion again, but dunno...)
Work is punishment for failing to procrastinate effectively.
That is very underhanded and irresponsible of the company to make it's product report that it's IE. But, it's up to them to make sure that their browser is 100% compatible with IE, because when they do stupid things like that, us webmasters have no way of knowing if we have to make tweaks for them because we don't know if they're hitting our web site! If Opera didn't render something quite right, and they had any market share, I'd only be able to work around that if they identified themselves to my web server correctly.
I don't respond to AC's.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
"We're relevent damn you and your free browser that is as good as our paid browser!"
Shadus
Opera have priced themselves out of business. $40 for a $20 product just ain't gonna sell.
Opera isn't that great anyway. It disappears off the screen (crashes) for no reason. It has a cluttered UI. Coupled with the pricing/adware it doesn't work out.
I partly blame Trolltech for their insane Qt pricing . $3800 for a $1000 product ain't gonna cut it.
The ratio of people to cake is too big
Jeebus, talk about sour grapes. What a dumbass.
Warning: I am the silence machine.
"Opera execs put whoopy-cushion on firefox execs chair"
Seriously, its decisions that bring about stunts like this that highlight why Opera will never be a significant contender in the browser wars.
I wonder if they will ever grow up?
A lot of people don't like our ads, which is sad as we don't have a rich sugar daddy like the Mozilla Foundation. They [the Mozilla Firefox team] don't have to think about money as they're being funded. We're not being funded
How is this even worth mentioning when IE has the biggest sugar daddy there is, haha
-paul
But really, I don;t like to knock Opera. It is the best browser in the world!!!
To this day, there are countless sites that will not allow any other browser, besides IE, to access them. The folks at Opera were aware of this and wanted to provide a browser that just worked. They did not want to provide a browser that, by default, did not work on many sites. By faking the IE user agent, Opera fooled most or all of the browser biased sites and just worked for the user. This contributed significantly to Opera's adoption.
The people at Opera were trying to sell their browser not enforce standards or change web designers. That meant that it was Opera that had to bend to be compatible with the sites not the other way around. Now that Opera has a market share of relative significance they may choose to try to change the world but, I'll bet that they just stick to selling browsers.
If you want your browser to work with 100% of the world's websites, the user agent better say Internet Explorer.
1. "Opera is configured by default to identify itself as Internet Explorer' "
Isn't that fraud?
2. "when configured to send an Opera user agent, some sites send malformed pages"
erm, ditto?
Plus, the whole point of the www is that it is browser independent. So this is unstandard behavior, and should be shunned(2).
Once again, this is a consequence of the majority of web users being ignorant and aptathetic about the issues underlying the very philosophical foundations that the web (& Internet) was built on.
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
I think I have run out of coffee.
I know plenty of people that use Firefox. I don't know one single person that still uses Opera. I installed it, used it and then de-installed it. I guess they still count my download as an install. Trying to deflect us from his promised swim?
Related: Firefox extension - user agent switcher
how does the salt water in North Atlantic tastes like?
Me fail French? That's unpossible!
Most people I know are using Firefox and most of them aren't geeks. Statics can often support whatever your personal agenda is. The real test is who is using it in the field and how devoted they are. Given it's security and features Firefox will keep gaining ground while others try to spin the satistics in their favor.
I went to IPChicken and it told me that my broswer was "NSACarnivore/1.0.0 (Dept. HLS/HLS)". I guess I shouldn't have downloaded a homebrewed version of FireFox... :-(
I find those claims rather dubious.
If link prefetching is going to make a difference at all, it's only going to be in Google search results; other search engines aren't big enough, and the statistics of non-search engine sites are not going to be affected by prefetching (since market share is computed by sessions, not pages). But it is totally unclear that prefetching would make any significant difference even for Google search results; in order to alter results, prefetching would have to occur for sites that are actually used to determine market share, and those sites would have to be not visited by the user explicitly. What fraction of Google search results are that? I suspect it's not very significant.
As for a "more efficient caching mechanism", sorry, I don't believe it. Again, it's not number of pages fetched but sessions that count. It is unlikely that a correct implementation of HTTP caching would permit Opera to eliminate entire sessions, simply because web sites generally configure some content as uncacheable in order to track their users or show ads. If Opera's caching mechanism eliminates those accesses, then Opera isn't "more efficient", it's simply broken.
Market share statistics based on browser log files are tricky and probably not all that accurate. But problems stem mostly from sample bias, not technology. Technologically, I suspect that the privacy features (disabling of cookies, adblock, etc.) in Firefox, if anything, cause it to be undercounted, rather than overcounted.
As for Opera, the people seem to be getting desparate. I'm sorry that there isn't much a market for their product anymore, but that's the way it is. Maybe it's time for them to look for a different market niche.
News note: Opera has recently announced a security patch to bring Opera to 8.01. This was to fix three holes (A, B, C) announced at the time, as well as one announced later.
The Macintosh version 8.0 has also been recently released, so that they can enjoy modern Opera as well.
.. paranoid crackpot leftover from the days of Amiga.
Even if this isn't fluff, at least Firefox is free, and isn't some adware-enabled piece of software that I have to drop down money on. Sorry Opera, that's life.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
What are you Amish?!!! I thought we didn't allow the likes of you on the web!
learn how to type soemtime taco!
hell, I see more visitors running lynx than opera.
there's something opera advocates and marketers need to keep in mind --
no matter how long and loud a chihuahua barks, it will never be a great dane.
Ok opera if you hand over your source maybe i'll belive you.
...I don't care what browser you use as long as I don't have to. k thx I'll get me coat...
Resident of Skara Brae since 1985
I used to use Opera, a long time ago on my ex-Windows box. Since I switched to Mozilla, then Firefox, I haven't looked back.
Opera is closed-source, and I won't be using any closed-source app while a half-decent open-source alternative is available. Simple as that.
Oh sure, browsers should be 100% W3C compatible. Also, there should be no war, marijuana should be legal, and Bush should be impeached and kicked out of office. The fact of the matter is that no browser is 100% W3C compatible (and that's been true since the birth of the Web), the US bombs the shit out of lots of people, you can go to jail for the rest of your life for marijuana, and most American people think that George Bush is the second coming. Life sucks, huh?
I don't respond to AC's.
Everything else seems to be...
The article there said it was okay when the browser ID itself as "Orpha".
I hate Opera... all those fat women wearing Viking Helmets just gross me out.
All men aren't pigs... we just smell that way.
Something else to think about, 'worse case scenario' wise. What if the browser share that Firefox has eroded from IE were Opera users switching to Firefox. So, IE's user base hasn't gone down at all. Doubtful, I am sure, but something to think about....
Bryan R.
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance, or $12.50 as seen on eBay.....
I always thought Opera users were weenies anyways.
We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
way to disguise your browser by default then bitch when you don't get ratings other browsers are getting.
"Opera is configured by default to identify itself as Internet Explorer' "
But why? FireFox identifies itself as FireFox because it makes itself out to be the next generation, Opera makes itself out to be just an alternative.
[i]Opera is configured by default to identify itself as Internet Explorer[/i]
Yeah, Konquerer 3.3 pulls that shit, too, but only pulls that on specific sites. It's absolutely outstanding that Opera does that [b]by default[/b]. I used to have a bank that required IE for it's online. My solution was to transfer my credit card to ANOTHER bank that just so happen to send me an offer.
I say fuck'em. If they require me to spread my butt cheeks for an eye exam, I'm going to find some other opthamologist...
Had it not been for the once dominant Netcscape Corporation, Mozilla and therefore Firefox would not exist. Firefox zealots act like a few o/s hacks whipped it off in the last 12 months. Nothing could be farther from the truth. A decade of Mozilla development and tens of millions of dollars lead to the Firefox browser that, IMO, while better than IE, is not nearly as good as Opera.
Somebody call the waaaahhmbulance.
$8.95/mo web hosting
Argos.co.uk, the site of a MAJOR chain store in the UK used to deny access to their site if you weren't using IE.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
The thought just occurred to me that we could use one problem to fix another here. We want to get webmasters coding for standards-compliant web browsers, right? Problem Number 1 is that they generally don't. Problem Number 2 is that Windows is highly susceptible to malware and viruses. So how about someone just write a virus that changes IE's user agent string to a random pick from Firefox, Opera, Safari, Mozilla or any other browser out there? Webmasters would no longer be able to trust the user agent strings they receive, so they'll have to just code to standards instead.
Then we'll see just how fast Microsoft can get a security update out when their web monopoly is being threatened.
My theory about Firefox and Opera user counts is that Firefox users are mostly zealots that blindly believe when they are told Firefox is already a good Browser (are tell it themselves because they want it to be). This kind of people will of course spend more of their time telling people how nice it is and try to convince them to use it too. And since most people without an opinion in this area are IE-users it is of course better (everything is better than IE).
Opera users use a browser with ready-to-use all useful features included (and not many unneeded ones) probably because they are pragmatic about the issue. This kind of person doesn't go out and tells everyone and their dog how good the software they use is, they just use it and do something useful in the time they save by not configuring Firefox Extensions new after each minor update and not advocating their browser all the time.
So as a conclusion the word of mouth effect for Firefox is much higher even though the browser is much less useful.
Linux is not Windows
that the market for Opera is limited to those people who either
1) Really, really like seeing ads in their browser, or
2) Enjoy paying money for a browser.
Considering the existence of so many alternatives, some of them rather good, I think that that market will always be limited.
Why does the browser call itself "IE"?
Le français vous intéresse?
Opera, Opera, Opera, Opera,
Opera, Opera, Opera, Opera,
Opera, Opera, Opera, Opera,
Firefox! Firefox!
Opera, Opera, Opera, Opera,
Opera, Opera, Opera, Opera,
Opera, Opera, Opera, Opera,
Firefox! Firefox!
Opera, Opera, Opera, Opera,
Opera, Opera, Opera, Opera,
Opera, Opera, Opera, Opera,
Firefox Firefox!
Opera, Opera, Opera, Opera,
Opera, Opera, Opera, Opera,
Opera, Opera, Opera, Opera--AAH, its I-E!
IIIEEE, III...oooh, its IEE!!!
its an Opera, Opera, Opera, Opera,
Opera, Opera, Opera, Opera,
Opera, Opera, Opera, Opera,
Firefox! Firefox!
(repeat about 4 or so times in every web server log...)
You can hold down the "B" button for continuous firing.
You can detect opera on the server just fine, even when its set to report as IE, it still tacks opera on the end. And no, you don't need to test for browser or version ever, for any reason, period. Idiots doing this are the entire problem. You should test "does this feature I want to use work", not test what you think the browser might be, and then assume you are right, and then assume you know what that browser can and cannot do, despite users being able to change that.
Flash is *ALWAYS* faster, cause the SUP got stamina...
Course Flashy always blamed it on Wonder Woman.
to track visitors you've got to look at what they do
I was helping consult a used car dealership. The guy wanted to know why he hardly got any sales from his website, but was getting "Thousands of hits a day."
So we dug in to look at the statistics some. First off, the automated web tracker place he was using told him the raw hits. So one guy looking at a single page that happened to also download severl of the pictures on that page could be 20 or more hits. Also we dug a little deeper. The top referer site seemed to be a web forum. We took a closer look and it turned out somebody from that forum (which was in spanish) had added a link to one of the images on his site. It was a picture of a car that was no longer even displayed on the site, but had never been removed from the server. So everytime anyone looked at this other web forum, which was quite busy, he got another 'hit'. To the point where something like 40% of his web traffic was people downloading this one picture while browsing someone elses forums.
So it is true what they say about lies, damn lies, and statistics. If you don't have a real person look and analyze the data to tell you what it means, all you get is a bunch of garbage that could mean anything.
Got Apathy?
If user figures are that important to Opera, why not eliminate the ads on the free version? I'm sure people would come flocking to Opera if their free version had no ads. I for one know that I would.
Frankly, many users find ads annoying, which is why Firefox users find the popup-blocking feature in Firefox quite useful. This feature would almost be pointless if you had ads regardless of what site you are looking at. Spending less time bashing other browsers and more time developing would probably be a wise choice as well.
who's faster, Superman or The Flash.
Superman, no question!
Link Prefetching in Firefox has to be explicitly turned on by the website you visit using the tag. As another person said, Google uses this for prefetching the top result on _some_ searches.
t ching_FAQ.html#Are_anchor_a_tags_prefetched
See the Mozilla site for more information:
http://www.mozilla.org/projects/netlib/Link_Prefe
Only Google Web Accelerator tries to use prefetching to fetch several(maybe all) links on a page, and it is available for IE and Firefox. It also uses a Google proxy server to cache pages, so perhaps not all hits will show up in a website's weblogs.
Its bullshit to claim that prefetching is causing inflated numbers, because websites that use prefetching also have the means to identify prefetch requests and can devise a way to take them into account when analyzing logs.
Daily figures, rounded to the nearest order of magnitude:
Internet Explorer - 500,000
Firefox - 50,000
Opera - 500
I'm sorry, but there's no "link inflation" that explains a 100-to-1 ratio. Methinks someone has sour grapes.
Pro-IE websites are rare. They are usually just websites written by incomp etant morons who assume there are 2 browsers, IE and netscape. So IE works, firefox/mozilla/netscape work, and opera, konq, safari, omniweb, dillo, etc, etc all get screwed if they don't pretend to be IE or netscape. That's why so many user agents are mozilla/version even if they have nothing at all to do with mozilla or netscape.
I use Firefox and know many, many people who do, too. I know one guy who uses Safari, and nobody who uses Opera.
That may be, but I still don't know anyone personally who uses Opera, and maybe only a handful who've even heard of it. IE, Netscape, Mozilla, Firefox, sure. But not Safari (unless they're Mac people), Konqueror, Opera. I bet more people use Lynx than Opera. It might be a really nice browser, but it's irrelevant since there are presently many great FREE browsers.
Sorry Opera, you lose.
You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
Actually the real story is:
opera sayd that has more marketing share THAN expected(not compared to ff!).
And they also sayd that FF has MORE than it is rated!
So lets not get wrong here. The thing why opera has low ratings is cos opera appears as IE (get it?)
I hope!
Many sites that use ASP/ASP.Net checks for IE before sending client-side component code. In such cases the browser needs to pretend to be IE for the site to work properly.
Opera 8 added a file ua.ini where you can set specific servers to always get a given UA string, no matter what you usually use. So you can proudly identify as Opera to most sites, but still use e.g. Mozilla or MSIE on those specific sites.
Am I the only one who's sick and tired of business people whining because they aren't about to compete with Open Source?
I have packet captures that prove that there are instances where IE will go for the same image in the same page over and over again while FireFox doesn't. Microsoft's reply to that bug report was that they are doing it that way to conform to standards.
This is just another nail in the coffin of Firefox since it seems the Mozilla group can't focus on one particular project. I prefer to use Mozilla since it lacks the "fruitiness" and the wuss-level preferences system. To fix that, they should offer a [basic] and [advanced] mode. And yes, I'm quite familiar with "about:config" too. However, the problem is, they're trying to burn both ends of the candle at once. Pick one, stick with it!
/ 0152202&tid=154&tid=90 happens. Not having a trademark is shameful.
0 0&tid=154&tid=1 kind of stuff.
It certainly does NOT look good when this http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/06/17
Then you have to worry about this http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/06/07/14142
And when the Firefox site says, "Join more than 64 million others and make the switch today -- Firefox imports your Favorites, settings and other information, so you have nothing to lose." You have to wonder, every time a new update comes out, why does it force you to download the ENTIRE Firefox package all over again?
"Oh, you need an update? That's _another_ download and one more point for our team..." What a crock.
-- Game Developers: Stop porting badly-textured games from crappy console systems!
Seems to be quite easy, if the info on the page is correct. All you would have to do is basically add that to some kind of program, maybe "Crack.exe", "XXX.jpg.exe" (with icon from a pron image, or for the /. crowd still on the dark side: "Breasts.jpg.exe" with the same trick.
I have a really elegant proof for Fermat's last theorem. If this sig was only a bit longer...
You're saying it's a wonder that opera makes any money, when they're the only vendor that charges(mod me up too)!
"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the World"
1 John 4:14
Dood you are soooo totally my hero! You have summed up my thoughts succinctly, and have brought calmness to my soul.
Unfortunately, if your wish comes true, slashdot will suddenly dissolve in a brilliant green flash during a blues-jazz concert, or was it jazz-blues... If no one would want to argue/bicker about trivial things, there would be no need for this medium.
"I'd rather win in an ugly car than lose in a pretty car" - Jari Lahdenpera
Your scenario implies that Opera is some sort of antiquated technology of yesteryar compared to Mozilla, when Opera is a smaller download, takes half the memory, is faster, and is still cross-platform. In addition, Opera originated tabs, gestures, and much more that people assume Firefox started, and its CSS support is still superior to Firefox's.
/. are so overinflated, it's amazing. Sigh.
Seriously, the pompous attitudes regarding Firefox around here on
You can still claim that you're ahead of both Firefox and IE in sales.
I noticed FunWebProducts showing up when I was using a reporting tool on our webserver logs at work. A quick Google told me that its a peice of spyware that seems to be included in alot of things. What I found unsettling is that about 40% of all IE users had it.
I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
"Opera is configured by default to identify itself as Internet Explorer" Even if Opera's numbers are deflated because of this practice they still have fewer users at my site than Firefox. If every hit reported as IE were a hit for Opera it would be less than Firefox. Perhaps they should stop complaining and get to making a better browser. I will admit that Opera has its good points, but they were not enough to keep me as a user.
that's how I see it anyway . . .
...if by war you mean a deadly serious conflict. Sure, it sounds melodramatic, but if people's jobs and livelihoods are on the line, and it affects therefore their communities, their families, etc, then in some sense, it is *very* serious. It isn't just an irrelevant little spat about ego or statistical market share - it is a real-world issue that determines who eats and who doesn't.
From the definition that follows, it might satisfy the first definition if you consider various computer programs an 'arm'. Of course, that might depend on if you were the US DOD or not...
It definitely meets the third definition.
war n.
1. A state of open, armed, often prolonged conflict carried on between nations, states, or parties.
2. The period of such conflict.
3. The techniques and procedures of war; military science.
3. A condition of active antagonism or contention: a war of words; a price war.
4. A concerted effort or campaign to combat or put an end to something considered injurious: the war against acid rain.
-- Mal: "Well they tell you: never hit a man with a closed fist. But it is, on occasion, hilarious."
You know where to leave your feedback about this incident.
I get browser support calls all day. I get plenty of firefox/IE/netscape/mozilla calls...I've yet to field an opera call.
the only person I know that uses opera uses and old version on BeOS
"I love western civilization in general, but this is the one part of our culture which drives me nuts lately: the completely vicarious "us"-versus-them cheerleading... what I like to call the "sports fan" mentality."
Without conflict life would be very boring. Not to mention that having something to blame makes everyone feel better. Why did Christianity come up with the Devil after all? If not something in name, humans will come up with something to fight like a new fad disease or people wearing furs or people that believe in free health care.
Remember what they taught in school: All Fiction books must have conflict wheather that is man vs man, man vs nature, or man vs himself. Trust me... I tried to argue this with my high school teacher, but apparently all literary works must have some type of conflict. She also wouldn't accept the fact that there could be man vs machine since she said it falls under man vs nature! Arggh!
The fact of the matter is, if you don't give something to someone to fight against he or she'll randomly pick something. That's why we have sports and social stigma against the unemployed.
Even if you received bread and watched circuses all day you'd still be fighting hunger and boredom. Speaking of which... Thank god for Slashdot and Pappa Johns!
"I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
-Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
WHOOOOOOOOSH yourself. You weren't "merely" saying that at all. You were saying that Opera is a broken technology from some past era compared to the brand new competitor.
That is false. In fact, Mozilla/Firefox is still taking features from Opera to this day. Opera is half the filesize, half the lag, and half the memory footprint. And it still comes with its own complete mail client and runs on Linux.
In several ways, Opera is the better engine (its CSS still kicks Firefox's butt, as does its speed). Honestly, you made yourself look foolish, and you're correctly being modded down for it.
Hey, TERdON, you forgot to hyperlink that picture of breasts you were talking about. COme on, man, quit holding out... where's the link?!
I'm really sick of browser wars. Pick whatever browser you want then shut the hell up. Who cares about market share figures? All browsers view web pages just fine, and the only real differences nowadays are things like tabbed browsing and other features of the programs.
This isn't like the old days where compatibility was a real issue in the Netscape vs. IE wars. It's the same internet and all the browsers support the same standards.
Not only that but besides Opera, all web browsers are pretty much all free.
This is great for trolls to modbomb accounts.
I've noticed that too. Usually the overrated mods appear a few days after the post is made, so no other moderators get to fix the damage.
agreed. conflict is the nature of man. when a clear conflict doesn't exist, humans create one.
in my opinion, curiosity is an inherent form of conflict that is resolved by complete annihilation of mystery in regard to the thing one is curious about. Seems conflict would be the way of the nerd as well (if you assume that we are driven by curiosity, which I do).
un burrito me trampeó.
I've tried Opera, it's ass. It's a competent browser but the fact that Firefox is better and it's free, causes me to put Opera on the ass pile.
Why won't these fucktards who think their commercial browser is getting a bad wrap just take a clue from Netscape and go away? No one cares.
One interesting side note about Opera.
A client called completely besides themselves because they received an email from a user saying when checking out they got a message about their SSL certificate is using an encryption method that is obsolescent. Apparently since it's possible to purchase a 256 bit ssl cert now, Opera 8 has determined that everyone else is a security risk. Are they right? Debatable. The real kick in the ass is the message comes up every time and apparently can not be turned off. Rediculous.
Karma means nothing to me, so suck it...
Now, seriously, who cares about that anyway? Thats not how I choose my Browser, and the Opera-Chief is a mormon.
this sig is useless
No one really uses it.
Eat me. I'm using it right now.
When I first tried Opera, FireFox's ancestor Mozilla was at 0.9 or so, and it was hella-slow. My PC was only 333MHz, so Moz was effectively not an option. So I tried Opera. It was hella-fast, even on my dinosaur. I've kept with it ever since. Every version has had great quality, and I'll stand by it. It rocks, on Windows or Linux (I use both, but Windows only because of my job's tools).
You like tabbed browsing? Opera had it before FireFox did. In fact, I think it did before anyone. Open Source isn't the only source of innovation.
Don't get me wrong, I love the GPL. But if someone can put out a superior product in a hard market, I won't hesitate to send them money. How long did it take FireFox to get to where it is now? How many name changes, forks, reconfigurations?
Why don't you give it a look? The ads are really unobtrusive. Give it a 2 weeks, try to configure it so you like it. Sure, FireFox is a "viable free alternative" (your words), but "viable" is not exactly a compliment.
My stupid web site
I wonder if there's a reason why Opera doesn't reveal these numbers....
If you had bothered to RTFA, you would know that Opera does indeed "reveal those numbers". But knowing how many people use a certain product won't tell you anything about its market share unless you know the exact size and flow of the market. To determine effective market share, what you need to do is look at statistics from as many websites as possible.
Technically, every Windows user has a copy of MSIE. That doesn't mean they all use it.
And while it's true that Opera has much better caching than any other browser, it's also true that most decent website trackers won't count multiple accesses from the same IP in a short period of time, so the margin of error shouldn't be too big.
Also, Opera doesn't (quite) identify itself as MSIE. Even in "MSIE mode", it still includes "Opera" in its agent string, so any site that tries to determine the browser type will still detect it as Opera. MSIE mode mainly turns on certain MSIE "quirks" (i.e., bugs), so that some pages specifically designed for MSIE render correctly.
RMN
~~~
Why is this funny? Why does a glorified text viewer have to become the subject of a holy war? The web is about the content, not how you view the content. Who the heck cares what browser you use so long as it does what it gets you to the content without a hassle.
People who think they know everything really piss off those of us that actually do.
/Opera is configured by default to identify itself as Internet Explorer/
Sorry.
i don't know about "free" health care, but what do you have against socialized heath care?
Opera Software Chief Executive's Raft "Not Inflated"
"... all get screwed if they don't pretend to be IE or netscape". Identifying as mozilla is pretending to be netscape, and the fact that several browsers do this by default proves my point that they get screwed if they don't do it.
Rich sugar daddy my ass. You have hard-working people coding and developing for FREE, and generous citizens willing to support a NON-PROFIT. It's not their fault that your company is losing. Go develop something innovative and QUIT blaming!
Does anyone know of a "least common denominator" CSS/(X)HTML reference listing the items that will auto render properly in IE, FF, and Opera?
Or must the burden be on the site authors to test against each browser still?
Take the 90-Day Challenge! http://rwmurker.bodybyvi.com/
While it may not be often true, it *is* possible that something that is short-term disadvantageous is long-term advantageous.
To use an extreme example, in retrospect, the National Socialist Party screwing up and losing power probably would have been a pretty darn good thing.
"I usually vote Democrat, so everytime a car-bomb goes off in Iraq, I'm happy because it makes Bush's decision to go to war look worse."
Probably not worth it. Car bombs do kill some people and don't make Bush look particularly bad. If, say, one of our carrier battle groups was destroyed, it'd probably make Bush look bad, but would have an extremely high cost. If Bush did something really embarassing, that might be a good thing, since it might weaken him politically.
"I'm a protestant, so every time another story about a cover-up of pedophile priests comes out, I'm giddy with laughter over the human tragedy, because it's a huge embarrassment to Catholics."
Not a bad thing at all. There is little cost to a cover-up being unveiled. Whether or not it's a good thing or not is more debatable, but Catholicism is arguably a net loss to human society, and in any event, discouraging people from engaging in cover-ups is probably a good thing.
"I'm a Linux user, so every time Microsoft users are hit with a virus which shuts down entire companies for the day and costs the US economy millions of dollars, I can barely contain my joy."
Probably not worth it. Viruses are very costly, and lack of viruses is not a solid, unattackable Linux advantage.
Now, if people were upset because the number of context-switches-per-second that Windows can do sucks, that would be a different story.
Any program relying on (nontrivial) preemptive multithreading will be buggy.
Exactly why do I care about that? I'm not using IE. I don't want to identify as IE, because IE is not an example browser, IMO. What a retarded thing to tout.
Everybody knows your market share is not even one percent.
It doesn't matter if Firefox is three percent or six percent, it's WAY PAST your market share.
I switched from Opera to Firefox and now my browser doesn't crash when I visit The Register site...
In fact, in general, I have far fewer crashes from Firefox than Opera - hardly any, in fact. Not bad for a browser with a lot of bug reports!
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
I downloaded Opera twice; once for Linux and once for Windows. Now Opera may claim my two downloads just as such.
But, I sincerely hope they don't count me twice as being an Opera user. I just d/l'ed to watch some damn fool swim the Atlantic.
Mr. T pitied this fool on 27 July 1992.
yet everyone knows that a browser is the extensioni of your penis,maybe he is Jealous of Firefox's penis?
Opera has two versions - paid and ad-supported (we'll ignore the pirated paid versions)
Shouldn't they be able to give some accurate Opera numbers.
Numbers of paid versions plus numbers of users who bought multiple versions.
Number of Opera browsers that connect to their AD server within a given time period.
They should be trying to get IE users to try different browsers, not arguing over table scraps.
Admittedly I haven't read a lot of "The Art of War", however, his fundamental principle was "It is best to win without fighting". IOW, only engage in war when you have no other choice.
The Internet's nature is peer to peer - 20050301_cs_profs.pdf
Clever signature text goes here.
You are not supposed to compensate for broken browsers. You cannot compensate for them because you do not know all the browsers, all their versions, and what they do and do not do, and how close to correct they do things. Write correct html, css and ecmascript, and test for ecmascript functionality instead of assuming its there just because you think I am using a particular browser version, when you actually have no way to know what I am using and what I have changed.
"Opera is configured by default to identify itself as Internet Explorer' " ...sucks to be you.
those figure inflated they may be
ar making admin support Firefox better and releasing compatible products.
Opera masquerading as IE doesnt get everything done that IE can
what about IE only applets, extensions, media content?
they don't all work and if opera showed it presence that would change
just like it did for firefox
many online tools , security, antivirus, games email websites have shifted from IE only scripting, language or Activex along with specific reliance on Windows
instead opting to extend their support for non WintelIE products thanks to influence from Mozilla-Firefox and the mobile browsers (phones) users.
No, he's saying that stats are unreliable, and that certain facts mean that Firefox's usage share is probably inflated compared to Opera.
Clever signature text goes here.
Now that part I didn't know, but now that you mention it I've never seen an over/underrated mod in meta so that adds up.
William of Ockham had no beard. The most likely explanation is that it was chewed off by squirrels every morning.
A fun short story.
This is a good idea! Konquer, Safari, Opera, Epiphiney, et. al should all spoof Firefox or some generic "Mozilla/5.0" string. This makes them all allies in the fight against IE, the axis of evil. they can go there separate ways once IE is knocked off the hill.
IE vs. Standards
Firefox's popularity will go down when Microsoft releases their new Internet Explorer for general use. From what I have heard, the new MSIE has tabs, the new MSIE will even display PNGs better, and it doubtless has other technical advances of one kind or another making it the least objectionable MSIE release to date. MSIE will continue to be the most convenient web browser for Windows users because it comes with Windows and is linked to on the desktop.
Why is this trouble for Firefox? Because Firefox is promoted on technical advances, therefore users will have no reason not to switch back to using MSIE.
Software freedom would be a compelling reason to stick with Firefox, but that's not the way Firefox is being pitched to users. Firefox doesn't cost any money to acquire or run, but MSIE doesn't cost its users additional money on top of the price of Windows (which is likely to come with their computer). So long as Firefox is promoted along lines that a proprietor with superior marketshare and advertising power can compete on, users will have learned no reason to favor an alternative.
Digital Citizen
" I'm sick of war"
And I'm sick of people being sick of war.
No seriously. You strike me as vaguely moronic. Certainly on the left hand side of the bell curve at a minimum.
But to keep it friendly, we'll just call you "lefty".
1. since the default prefetch for Firebox (see about:config) is true, its correct that the stats of firefox are somewhat inflated if the hit counts is all that matters.
but hit count is not the right way to count how many users are using a particular browser anyway:
the count should be done per IP address, per browsing session, so all the prefetch hits of firefox will count as the same IP address in the seam session, and therefor will not bump the count.
something tells me that most of the statistics are based on such a method (or similar) anyway.
2. if Opera identifies itself as Explorer by default, it means Internet explorer stats are inflated - yet, he choose to point the finger at firefox.
its funny how Opera chooses to identify itself as IE to fool sites into thinking its IE connecting, than bitch about low Opera usage statistics.
make up your mind, you knew the consequences when you choose to chose to identify as explorer!
Omry.
How about putting aside that Opera is ad supported, and just debate which browser actually is better. all the arguments I see against Opera is "its not free". Personally I dont want to configure and download 15 extensions every time I need to reinstall the browser. I want a sane default configuration and lots of built in features. Shouldnt Firefox be alot faster than Opera since its bare bone? http://www.howtocreate.co.uk/browserSpeed.html (warning, old article). And just think about it, which major features most browsers have didnt Opera come with first?
Try this:
Open Opera but make sure it identifies itself as "Opera" proper (no MSIE Opera stuff).
Now go to http://www.msn.com/
I couldn't get that with any other browser - not even Konqueror.
Only with Opera (on Linux haven't tried my Windows version yet)
Anyway, if the same happens on Windows - then it is clearly very personal.
Vendetta even.
Someone must upsetted Microsoft real bad - way more than any other browser company could.
I personally don't like Firefox?
... And about the IE identification.
..
I mean, sure it is much better than IE.
But I used it only if I must, to check sites.
So it is a personal preference - am I going to be slaughtered now by the GPL gestapo?
IMO, Opera is a cleaner, faster, much better browser. which I paid for with gusto.
Now before you protest, answer me this - do you buy PC-games? All those that do, and go on about open-source are mere hypocrites.
Stop flaming an extremely poli-platform browser that was the first to come up with many of the features being replicated everywhere.
Don't be so pig-stupid
Many sites script "IF NOT IE then PISS OFF"
The average Joe doesn't know that, the average Joe want to carry on browsing.
The average Joe may lack your technical expertise but he sure gets laid more often - unlike you wanking lot.
Anyway, if you don't like the default setting - change it:
Tools -> Quick Preferences -> Identify as Opera
Or press F12 (I think even Mr. Joe Average can understand that)
In Firefox: edit some hidden config file
There's commercial Photoshop vs free OS GIMP, commercial Windows vs free Linux, etc... and I don't see Adobe and MS going bankrupt. Being free is not the only feature of the browser, and Opera has some features that are worth paying for (or getting 250 referral clicks in Opera affiliate program).
Some webmasters say "why should I fix my website for when it's 0.01% of visitors on my site!?".
Well, Einstein, how are you supposed to get more visitors if your site works/looks like crap in ?
Opera's default cache settings are more aggressive than other browsers' and they sometimes result in annoying problems (URLs ending in .html are apparently considered static HTML, even though they are often dynamically generated). Opera feels slower than MSIE when the cache settings are "correct", at least on my PC ...
"I love my job, but I hate talking to people like you" (Freddie Mercury)
Agreed. I don't care if proprietary software produces the best browser on Earth. If using it takes away my freedom to use my preferred operating system, or to link code up a patch that links it to my preferred desktop search engine, then the price is too high. Freedom is more important than some latest feature. I, for one, am thankful that others get that instead of just selling out to whatever company provides the latest gimmick first.
- Text browsers and bots only load the (X)HTML file, no images or stylesheets. This results in only one file transfer, not maybe 10 or 20 when a graphical browser loads images etc. So non-graphical browsera are always undercountered
- Many Bots and the Opera Browser use the User Agent String from the Internet Explorer
- The graphical Browsers do have different caching and prefetching methods.
For more reasons you should read this article about the nonsense of browser statisticsThe web brazier that fills half a page with bullshit and eats bookmarks making them never to be found again. Maybe they could recriut B.E.T to buy the banner space and keep them in warm beer.
I used to work for DELL via an outsourced company in Denmark. We tried to be as honest as possible to our customers (except when it came to confidential information when you have to tell some white lies). We always recommended the best to our customers.
- I am annoyed by popups and spyware.
- Give Firefox a try, if you like it - use it
- I suspect I have a virus. Symantec Antivirus does not detect anything.
- Symantec Anti Virus is ok but AVG is better.
- What do you guys in tech support use instead of "program 1,2 and 3"?
- I send you some links by email from my personal address. No probs.
We took personal responsability for DELLs customers. Sure, the amount of calls we could have taken decreased but we got it back in statistics and positive feedback.
I know that far from all outsorced companies are like that. Unfortunatley I've also seen tech-support at its worst.
Firefox is very inefficient when it comes to cash. I remember using Opera a few years ago. The cache was incredible. Images were hardly ever re-downloaded, and you could reload previously visited pages without having to redownload them, which on my dialup connection means a lot. On frequently-visited sites, it was so damn fast as all the images were cached.
Just now I had Firefox open with about 10 Slashdot tabs. Then I loaded that onion link, which has Flash in it. Flash often crashes Firefox. It did so this time. When I reopened it, instead of just opening the pages as they were, it decided, in its infinite wisdom, to REDOWNLOAD THE WHOLE FUCKING LOT OF THEM. WHY??????? I have a 200GB hard disk, I've given the cache tons of room, I can keep thousands of these pages on cache, so why doesn't it use it? I don't want to spend ages redownloading pages.
Also Opera sorts the cache better. Files have the proper extensions. Firefox removes the extensions from the files in the cache, so you don't know what the hell they are, and you can't browse them. Just a shame that Firefox is the open source one, I'd rather have Opera open-sourced, it's a lot quicker and more efficient, imagine what could have been done with all the effort that's gone into Firefox instead.
i work at a campus IT callcenter--we recommend firefox pretty routinely, but distribute mozilla in campus-wide software packages.
i think we're technically supposed to recommend mozilla, but either way, troubleshooting step no. 1 is always get them the hell away from IE. regardless of policy, we lowly call-catchers just recommend whatever we like best or prefer.
if this random support guy is anything like the overwhelmingly opensource junkie helpdesk people i've met, is it any real surprise he recommended firefox?
You tag the useragent as "Opera" without ruining the MSIE spoofing by simply adding "Opera; " or "OWB; " after the OS string.
In fact, that's exactly what Opera does. Version 8 has three possible user agents that can be switched from the Tools menu, the F12 Quick Prefs, or a customized toolbar widget:
- Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.0; en) Opera 8.0
- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.0; U; en) Opera 8.0
- Opera/8.0 (Windows NT 5.0; U; en)
As long as you know that Opera exists, it's not hard to detect at all.
Is this a sigs-optional kind of place? 'Cause I am totally down with that if you know what I mean.
well... I'm not opposed to it... I hope the fact that I said someone being opposed to people wearing furs and being opposed to free health care would tip off that I held neither of those opinions since they are mostly exclusive I would beleive.
"I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
-Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
Perhaps he meant "free as in speach" health care.
Switch the names in this article....change Opera to "Microsoft" and Firefox to "Linux". Microsoft(Opera) claims that Linux(Firefox) usage and downloads are inflated, and by the way the Microsoft(Opera) products are much better. Substance speaks volumes. Linux didn't rollover, even with the MS FUD machine at work against it (a very good machine, BTW). Opera is picking a fight to get itself in the news and seem relevant.
jeffro.tostring() The opinions here are expressed as my own. If my company knew about them, they'd likely get rid of
It sounds more like Opera is lamenting that its usage figures are artificially deflated. To which I have to say: Wahhh, suck it bitch. Opera isn't Open Source. Go home.
It's rare that you're presented with a knob whose only two positions are Make History and Flee Your Glorious Destiny.
From what I've seen in my own server logs over the past year or so, this is bullshit. I get floods of 304 responses all from Opera UAs whereas Firefox actually caches the damn stuff when it's told to.
That would be your opinion and you're entitled to it but millions obviously disagree for a variety of reasons, many of which are cited as the interface and ads.
I tried Opera when it first came out and hated it. Tried it again a while later - still hated it. Tried it recently, still have it on my computer but still hate it and don't see that it has any more functionality than Firefox or Mozilla but manages to distract me more with their bloody ads and trying to find things in what I consider counterintuitive locations. Additionally, I can't see where I can add any functionality through the use of extensions or plug-ins, or remove 'features' that I don't use through same although I can send $$$ to remove those ads.
I neither fear Opera, nor am I uncertain or doubtful of my current dislike of it. That could change in the future as the software matures but for now, I simply don't care for it and evangelizing and telling people how narrow-minded they are for stating such won't win believers or influence friends.
Since you're obviously fond not only of Opera but FUD seems to be the word of the year for you, do you even know what it means? Fear, Uncertainty & Doubt. You seem to attach that to many of your posts leading me to believe that you either don't know what it means or have too limited of an imagination to come up with anything else.
Please find a new catchphrase, that one is as tired and useless as Internet Exploder.
Thus spake the SysGoddess
"Opera is configured by default to identify itself as Internet Explorer"...well, then that's your own damn fault :P
"A truly wise man realizes he knows nothing."
Just try loading http://news.google.com/ with Opera when it's set to identify as Opera. The page download is something like 125kbytes, but when user agent is set to Mozilla or IE the page is only 28 kbytes. That is because they use a browser identification string to determine whether a browser can be sent gzipped data, even if the browser tells in its request that it CAN handle gzipped data.
The same thing happens with every google page, that is the main search page, gmail, google news etc. And it wouldn't be too far fetched to assume that people use google pages to test browsers speed, and when you do that on, say, a 512kbit connection, the difference in download time is significant. Therefore Opera seems the slower browser to render google pages.