Personally, I think the Shuttle is a piece of crap, but I think in defense of the Shuttle itself you have to consider that the loss of both the Challenger and Columbia were due to human error. Challenger launched outside of acceptable weather parameters. Columbia was lost because NASA didn't take the time to research the true effects of foam strikes even though they were initially considered unacceptable. No matter how robust the launch vehicle, you're always going to lose them when people make stupid decisions.
It's interesting to think that if you told ground personnel that they'd be executed if they killed their crews, we'd never launch another vehicle again.
... adapting a US heavy lift vehicle to launch them must be confronted.
Saturn V baby. I've been criticized for saying it before, but I find it interesting that the CEV is now looking at J-2s instead of SSMEs modified for in-flight start. The F-1 is still one of the most powerful on the books. To this day, I don't understand why the US space program didn't stick with what worked. Sure, SSMEs share a common ancestory with J-2, and the OMS is a derivative of the SPS, but what ever happened to the old RP-1/LOX combos for heavy lift? There's nothing like 5 F-1s running at full tilt to get your payload to orbit, even if it does take twice as long to clear the gantry.
Despite your initial assertion, you have yet to *prove* me wrong.
My goal is not to prove you wrong. You placed me in a position of defending my opinion and I am doing just that. At the end of the day, this is a discussion about what type of community we each want. Ultimately, the marketplace will decide what is best. And that's ok with me because I think that truly free markets generally behave in their own best interest.
I was going to be a bit disappointed that the most interesting conversation I've had since I can remember has come to an end.:-)
Ok, either I'm really good or you need to get out more. Probably the latter.:-)
Do you sense a certain imbalance of standards here?
Not really. I don't see bring any problem with bringing a positive worldview into the picture, but I do see a problem with bringing a negative one. I guess what I'm saying is that if you can't be positive, at least be neutral.
On the other hand, you're asking me to leave behind any bias I may have from just the few lines *you* wrote. I really don't know how to do that.
This confirms my suspicion that I'm a proxy for others, at least in part.
At the very least I'd have some questions about why you feel justified in saying what you've said.
Did you read my first post? Carefully? I don't think that I could have spelled it out any better. But this is where bias comes into play. Either you didn't take the time to read the post because I pushed a "hot button" for you, or you chose to focus in on the perceived negatives and ignore the rest of the post. I challenge you to reread the post, looking at it from a positive prespective for both the community and the individual. I think that you'll find a lot of great stuff in there.
I admire you for your high ideals, but don't care much for your lack of practical common sense. In fact, I originally percieve that you intentionally suggested such an involved and high commitment solution to his rather innocuous question just to spite him. As in, "lazy bastard! get off your ass and get busy!" That's why I thought you were taunting him.
XXOO:-)
Seriously, I will agree that I was pushing him for something better. If you want to read that as "get off your ass" then so be it. Nothing wrong with that. If he wants to waste community bandwidth, for whatever reason, then he should expect some pushback. From what you're saying, there's never a time when it's legitimate to push somebody to a higher standard. And that's at least part of the reason that we have such problems in DC. These guys make upward of $150K/yr, and somehow we don't expect more out of them. And it's not just limited to Washington either. Sports figures are about the worst, getting paid millions of dollars to play, and then whining about their contracts. Don't even get me started on the baseball strike!:-)
For the forseeable future at least, book are not going to respond to questions or offer feedback... Even ill-formed questions like asmor's has a chance to be interpreted in multiple ways, one of which (hopefully) would end up being useful to the asker.
I totally understand where you're coming from, but I chose to disagree. I think that it's a matter of how you look at life. For example, there are some people who think that it's ok to drive as slow as they want down the road because they want to see the sights. I'm the kind of guy who goes out of his way to make sure that traffic flows smoothly, which means I pay attention to my surroundings and move out of the way of others where I can if it will help them make progress. I'm courteous in heavy traffic, but I also expect others to follow the rules so that we can all do our thing. Nothing pisses me off more than someone who tries to be nice at a 4-way stop by waving me through rather than taking their turn. The system works best when we all follow the rules of the road.
That being said, I think Asmor is a tourist. What's wrong with him parking his car in a lot and taking a side tour rather than driving down the center lane at half speed trying to find his way? From your comments throughout, you seem to think that if he doesn't know what to do next then he's stuck. Ok, let's assume that you're right and that he just doesn't know what to do next. Asking random questions isn't going to
Sorry again for the delay. Rebuilt a major server and had to work out a bunch of nasty issues. Can't imagine where I'd be without Google.;-)
I don't know if it will be of any use to pursue this particular tact. It's splitting hairs. Judgement call, assumption - what *is* the difference? Basically, I thought you called him lazy and I felt it was unjustified.
We all come to the party with preconceived notions. I'm the kind of guy that *assumes* that people are intelligent and hard working because that's the kind of people that I grew up around. In order to get me to think that you're lazy or stupid, you have to prove it. That's when I make a *judgement* call. Interestingly, most people work the other way around. They start out on the assumption that you're lazy and stupid and that you have to prove to them that you're smart. Personally, I think that this is an ego driven mentality, since you're effectively asking people to measure up to your own standards.
Because you expect slashdot to be that community./*grin*/ slashdot for crying out loud! Okay, on second thought, maybe that isn't so much alarming as...er...funny.
I find it sad that you don't want or expect more from the Slashdot community. I agree that there's a lot of crap here, but let me try giving you an analogy. Right now, there's tons of corruption and stupidity in Washington, DC. Does that mean that you don't want politicians to clean up their act? Do you think that Washington reflects how most Americans feel about their country? What's wrong with wanting a better community?
you know? "teach a man how to fish.." and all that. Don't just brag about how good you are and taunt someone else for being a bad fisherman (for whatever reason).
As I said in my original post, Asmor provided virtually no context in which to have any reasonable discussion. Read his post again. He talks about code reuse, storage, and programming languages. Perhaps you're right that he didn't have enough information in which to frame the discussion, but then I'd say that he shouldn't be throwing around such big terms. Why didn't he say something like "I've got two games written in Perl and I'm reusing some of the code. How do you suggest that I avoid duplicating functions?" Without any such detail, I can only put him into the category of "general knowledge seeker". From our discussions here I'd say that you probably think that this is a good thing in all circumstances, but frankly I don't. If you want general knowledge, buy a book. If you have specific questions then ask them on Slashdot.
BTW: I totally disagree with your characterization of my comments as "taunting", although you're free to have your own opinion. Perhaps you should read them again carefully without introducing any bias. I think that you'll find that my criticism was quite passive. I use words such as "seems like" and "I feel". To me, taunting someone would follow along the lines of "What kind of asshole would post such a stupid question? Perhaps this dipwad should get a life and stop bothering smart people like me with their pissant posts".
I'm more interested in the perceptive insights and interesting ideas you can offer to challange my own world view and further my own enlightenment. I hope the sentiment is mutual.
I'm also running mandriva 2006... yet I shy away from using older distros because things have started to run much smooter in the last few years.
I've been a long time Mandriva user and finally gave up after installing 2006. Sadly, Mandriva has never been able to shake the "every other release is a piece of crap" syndrome. I had high hopes that a yearly release cycle would fix things, but it didn't. I was also got really tired of trying to find an update mirror that worked. I finally called their US number and got some guy who told me that for $1,000/year that I could have access to a stable mirror. I was shocked to say the least. I love the club and had no problem paying the fee. Shouldn't my club dollars get me access to a stable mirror?
My new distro of choice is Ubuntu. I like the whole Debian stability thing but didn't like their release methodology. We've built dependencies on newer releases of OSS (like MySQL 4.1) and didn't want to wait an indeterminite amount of time for the next release. Ubuntu seems to fill the gap between super-stable distros lile Debian and the bleeding-edge releases like Mandriva. I need to be certain that when I update my kernel that my machines won't lock up (happened on two different Mandriva releases) but I don't necessarily want to be running the 2.4 kernel either.
In response to a hypothetical asterik guru who snubs you
Sorry for not clarifying. I was talking about you or Asmor or Slashdot editors or anyone else who we've directly engaged in the discussion. Sure, I think that people who clearly flame someone for no good reason are jerks. Can we at least agree on that point?
I find it very telling you consistantly ignore the option of simply not responding to the likes of asmor.
Actually, I did. I said that Ask Slashdot has been flooded with these types of questions and that it was driving away experienced folks, thereby making Ask Slashdot less useful for people like me. You might not like the reason that I gave, but I did give a reason. And ignoring Asmor's post just makes matters worse.
Then you suggest he place himself under the wings of a trained academic, of the type you belong to.
I'm definitely not in the category of "trained academic". I couldn't convince myself that spending $100K to get a PhD in a field that I know a lot about to take a job that paid 1/3 of the industry was worth the time, effort, or money.:-) My appointment for was for one year and was subsequently filled by a candidate with all of the qualifications.
I don't particularly percieve (or care) that you don't like me...
This is a curious comment, especially since I just said that you "seem like an intelligent guy with well reasoned opinions". Do I need to end all my posts with XXOO?
I'm just a little alarmed at the seriousness of your attitude, that you genuinely believe squelching curiosity and questioning of the more basic variety is actually good for a community which thrives on knowledge and creativity.
"A community which thrives on knowledge and creativity" is a matter of definition. You see it broad, I see it narrow. Why is it alarming that I should want to be a part of a community that's geared toward more advanced users? Should I expect that every community to which I belong *must* deal with n00bs whether it wants to or not? Should I keep my subscription to Linux Journal if all the articles are on bash scripts and Linux installers?
but your assumption that someone ought to do so because they're being lazy *is*
My exact quote was "I don't want to judge this guy too quickly, but virtually the entire question reads as though he's lazy." Meaning that I read the post in its entirety and came to the conclusion that he wasn't making an effort based on his own words. It's a judgement call, which is far different than an assumption.
No one should forget how hard it is to first start out on something.
When I was a kid, I was really interested in the space program. At that time, information was virtually impossible to find. These days, information abounds, and starting about four years ago I decided to become as well-versed in the topic as I could be. I read book after book, scoured the Internet for tidbits, and bought videos of engineering tests. I've become something of an expert on the topic of the space program through the Apollo years (a friend who works for Boeing on their rocket program was quite impressed with my knowledge and library), and yet not once did I take the time of any expert to satisfy my curiosity, even after spending days researching quindar tones. I guess my point here (somewhat long-winded) is that I find myself being a n00b almost every day, and yet I find virtually everything I need with the resources that are readily available through Google and the public library.
We have our code etched in marble slabs by a bunch of low-paid college interns.
Remember the good old days of carrying around boxes full of punchcards, only to lose control of the box and watch the cards scatter when they hit the floor? I can't imagine what it would be like trying to piece together the code on the marble slab that's broken into bits (or bytes:-)
It says to me that half of that half are posts by those whom you would consider jerks.
Boy, you really do lack self respect. Never once did I even imply that I thought anyone was a jerk, nor would I make such a statement. All I've said is that I didn't think the post was appropriate.
It's about public respect and social etiquette...
You can't be serious. On Slashdot?:-)
Seriously, we have a problem in our society of people being offended far too easily. Somehow we've gotten to the point where people assume that disagreement means disrespect. You've gotta get over the fact that just because I don't like your idea doesn't mean that I don't like you as a person. For the purpose of this discussion, you seem like an intelligent guy with well reasoned opinions. I just think that you're wrong.
Having said that, I'd like you to point to a single example of any of my posts (either this thread or others) in which I've been disrespectful. I doubt that you'll find any, unless you somehow think that "RTFM" is disrespectful.
For the record, I don't think that I'm being overly sensitive here. You seemed to make the logical progression from being elite to being disrespectful and lacking etiquette. If I am being reactive then just tell me to FOAD. I promise that I won't take it personally.:-)
Those who don't participate in your discussions are not obligated to because the facility is just as much theirs as it is yours.
I've conceeded the point in an earlier post that Slashdot is as much yours as mine, so I have no idea what you're fishing for here. I think that you want me to say that I was wrong in criticizing Asmor's post. I'm just not sure that you've made your case that I was unfair in my comments.
I get the feeling that I've become a proxy for every rude and inconsiderate comment that you've ever seen on Slashdot. I think that you need to learn the distinction between comments that are made for the betterment of the community and those intended to make the poster look better at the expense of another. I've been trying real hard to find any comment that I've made that would fit the second category and have yet to find any.
Appearantly, both the editor and many posters had no trouble percieving the context of the question and suggested something along the line of CVS, SVN, or Subversion as the most suitable solutions to the problem... The fact that over 400 comments were made to this question and a great many of them found some way to be useful speaks volumes about the decision of the editors to post it.
Ok, but half of those 400 posts are you and me, so what does that say?;-)
I don't think posts on CVS or Subversion are what this guy was looking for, unless I totally misunderstood his question. The initial question was more along the lines of code structuring. I just re-read the question, and while he briefly mentions code storage, the question is clearly much more about partitioning. The fact that we can't even agree on the question is somewhat troubling to me.
By the way, I'm genuinely curious where you learned about CVS/Subversion-type tools in school.
Back in the mid 80s, there was no such thing as source control, at least not for the masses. In fact, virtually all the tools that we take for granted today were not around. Most of my training came from watching what others were doing and then trying to figure out how that fit into my little world view. So to answer your question directly, I picked up source control in the mid 90s while working at a large Fortune 500 company that is often disrespected by those who frequent this site.
However, you don't get to keep that hard earned respect by then complaining about the folks you *don't* want to help.
A few years back I left my high-paying job to take a one-year teaching position at a local university (at 1/3 of the pay). I did this not only to satisfy my curiosity, but I also wanted to give something back in recognition of all the effort that other people had put in to help me get where I was. I taught computer science. I had lots of electrical engineering students in my classes because their department required them to take an entry level programming class. Funny thing was that somehow many of these folks thought that I should take it easy on them because they weren't really a part of my world. Sadly for them, they had me as their teacher. I road their asses just as hard as I did my CS majors. In the end, I believe that they are much better off for the experience because my courses were designed as much to instill work ethic as they were to teach specific subject matter. I also wouldn't have felt good about taking someone's money and then not giving them a challenge. If people go to college to eventually use that knowledge to get a better job, I'm going to do everything in my power to make sure that they get what they need.
If you're successful in keeping the other folks out, pretty soon you wont have anything to write programs about.
Some level of exclusivity is good. In fact, that's why there's a moderation system. I keeps the level of noise down to a minimum for n00bs. I browse at 0 and sometimes even at -1 because I want a more raw, unfiltered view of the world, even if it means that I see the occasional GNAA post.
We don't necesarily enjoy the attention of the advertisers, but that doesn't mean our vision for slashdot and desire for what it might be ought to play second fiddle to the experienced coders.
"Second fiddle" is a just a state of mind. If you really feel this way then your problem isn't a lack of knowledge, it's a lack of self-respect. If I'm in a room of doctors and they're talking shop, I don't feel any like I'm any less of a person. Sure, they can cut out a bad appendix, but can they find a race condition in a multi-threaded app? Personally, I like being anywhere where there are smart people because I listen to what they're saying and then use what I've learned to expand my knowledge base.
I've normally found managers that manage managers to be worthless.
I'd suggest that this is because their roles are poorly defined. In this case I have to ask a couple of hard questions. Why do these guys need an admin? Are they incapable of managing their own machines? Are they too busy?
If the role can't be well defined and a business justification made, the position should be scrapped.
Ok, I'm only going to answer one of your questions.:-)
You say the responses are often pretty pathetic - have you ever made any effort to raise the level of the discussion by posting useful reponses yourself?
Absolutely. I do it not only on Ask Slashdot but elsewhere on the site. I've gotten my karma through many +5 insightful/informative posts. As I mentioned in my orginal post, I often push back on people who I think are too harsh on Ask Slashdotters. It's just in this case the question was a "motherhood and apple pie" kind of question without any real context. Personally, I fault the editors for even posting the question.
I'm surprised that you don't think that people don't get real work done reading Slashdot. I often get useful leads that I follow up on. For example, a few weeks ago I was complaining about how NFS shares would always hang on me. Someone replied with a suggestion on how to mount them so they don't hang. I spent numerous hours scouring the web for this information, so in this case a single Slashdot post was super helpful.
I guess at the end of the day the editors will choose who it is that they want to frequent the site. I totally agree that software is not written as an end unto itself. But I disagree with your notion that that means the developers and operations folks don't want or need a place to hang out. If that wasn't the intention of Slashdot then why are all the ads geared at the computer professional. Book reviews, banner ads, and sidebar ads are all targeted at guys like me. I never see ads for telescopes or chemistry sets or books on DNA sequencing. That's not to say that there shouldn't be, but the day that I think that Slashdot isn't going to meet at least some of my professional needs is the day that I find someplace else to hang out. Sadly, the quality of articles lately (not just this one but many others throughout the site) has been lacking. I haven't yet decided if this is a problem with this site or if the industry is just going through a slow phase.
Does that mean the general public is better served by not being curious or asking questions?
Nope
And if one is interested, you would expect one to matriculate at the local community college and take a few semsters to cover the materials one didn't get in high school biology?
Possibly. If you're really interested in a subject and you're not willing to seek out the answers on your own then you should train with someone who will spend the time to teach you properly. For all we know, this guy's going to get a bunch of crap answers by posting on Slashdot, so wouldn't he be better served by leaving the teaching to professionals?
So to keep the programmers and computer folks happy, we should set the bar higher for the quality of discussion on those topics and everything else ought to be chump change?
Yes. This might seem like a snap response, but Slashdot wouldn't be what it is without the developer community. If there isn't enough to keep them interested, they'll all just leave. And then what do you have? (Ok, I'll admit, some people might like it better this way.:-)
Would you feel the same way if the guy in question was asking about protein synthesis or DNA sequencing? How much bio-technology training have you had?
Do you really think that this is a topic that would best be answered on Slashdot?
To bring the discussion back to the subject at hand, is anyone paying you to take time and effort to participate on slashdot? What compels you to reply to these posts besides your own free will? Why do you feel obligated to police the level of discussion here? I still don't understand why it is so hard to just ignore the stuff that doesn't interest you.
I've already said that Ask Slashdot could offer so much more, but I really feel like people have given up on it. Look at the number of posts on any average Ask Slashdot and compare that to other categories. The responses are often pretty pathetic. Personally, my hope is that the editors read the comments and take action to get better questions. I know that after they got flamed for dupes that they started referencing previous articles where possible. It hasn't fixed the problem completely, but dupes are down.
Now imagine if instead of helpful comments, some wise guru replied to you with the sentiment that you simply haven't done *enough* brain-racking and you're wasting their time with your pleas for help. (Hmm, I wonder who would be so rude?!) It's not so comfy when *you're* the one needing "just a single piece of missing information that can make or break a project", is it?:-)
So let's just say that this happened with my Asterisk server. I'd just brush the guy off as a jerk and read the good responses. If 80% of the comments where of the RTFM flavor then I'd go back to find better sources because obviously I'd have missed something.
Ultimately, I think the important thing is to foster an environment where not only access, but interest in casual knowledge is encouraged. And you're not going to get that if newbie inquiries are always snubbed.
I don't think casual knowledge is discouraged. I've learned lots about all kinds of topics by reading other's posts.
I'd say that not making people work like this for a living is not giving them "handouts."
I'd agree. So I have a question, and I'm really not trying to be condescending here, so please don't take it that way. When you were working for these guys making the equivalent of $3.50, was there anything that was preventing you from leaving and finding a better job?
I think you deserve to work twelve hours per day, six days each week for a dollar an hour.
I started a small business with a friend about three years ago, and in that entire time I have yet to receive a single paycheck for my efforts. I work a minimum of 70 hours a week and lose thousands of dollars each month. In that entire time, I've taken exactly three days of vacation. Why do I do this? Three reasons really. First, I love my work and I love to create new things, Second, I'm providing jobs for other people, which makes me feel like I'm giving back to my community. Third, the long term potential to recoup my investment plus something extra is definitely there, however it is not guaranteed. I could end up working for five years and be stuck with a huge bill that I'll have to personally pay off.
But at least I try to look outside my perfect little world.
I think that we both are. The difference is that I believe that it's primarily the responsibility of the individual to fix things, and you believe that it's government's responsibility. I'd agree that government can help things, but do you really believe that forcing Walmart to pay health benefits to its workers is going to help make people healthier? If you do, I got a better plan for you that will make a lot more people healthier a whole lot faster. Pass legislation that jails anyone who is more than 20 pounds over weight (including me) because of the associated risks. Also jail the smokers and those who drink in excess. If you did that, society would be virtually free of heart disease, lung cancer, and many other bad things.
Immigrants are increasingly put off by the lack of safety net for others
Really? So you're telling me that any of the 1 billion in China wouldn't want to leave the oppression of their country to move to the U.S. if we didn't cover their health care expenses? How about another billion in India - would they give up the opportunities afforded to them in the US because of no safety net? Can you explain why immigrants from Mexico, Cuba, and Haiti risk life and limb to enter this country every day? How many Somalians would pass up a life in the US because of no social benefits?
The fact of the matter is that we're so spoiled here in the U.S. that we can't appreciate just how hard life is for a large portion of the rest of the world. When 1,500 people get wiped out in a matter of seconds in the Philippines, I have to appreciate everything that I have. I just wish those who complain about things being broken would put in as much energy into their jobs as they do into whining about the little things.
Mmhmm. How does this conflict with the statement, "the more brutal and socially irresponsible the US appears, the less attractive it is to many immigrants"?
Apparently you equate the lack of a welfare state with oppression. Very sad.:-(
You mean immigrants don't mind getting completely screwed over by those already in power?
How is not giving someone a handout "screwing them over"? The only way I think that this can happen is if you route all resources through the government, in which case you're correct. If you feel this way, I suggest you move to Cuba or China.
Dismantling the US safety net even further is only going to accelerate outsourcing: the more brutal and socially irresponsible the US appears, the less attractive it is to many immigrants.
Historically, immigrants have come to the US for two reasons: repression (usually religious) or opportunity. In neither case are these people very interested in a safety net. Also, it has been US policy to push away people who are coming to this country who are coming just for social services. I've experience this personally when I brought my wife in from Canada. I had to prove that I had the means to support her. No cash, no green card.
Why are we having to outsource these kinds of technical jobs?
Because our workers and governments demand too much. When companies have to pay high salaries, top benefits, and meet tons of regulations and pay huge taxes on top of everything then what do you expect? It amazes me when I see legislation that attempts to force large companies to dedicate a portion of their payroll expenses to health care costs for workers. Don't our lawmakers understand that this communist style approach to government will only drive businesses away?
Who would you hire the one making 35k or 65k? I would assume the one making 65k was better at his or her job otherwise he or she would leave right?
Me personally? I'd hire the right person for the job, regardless of the cost. But that's not always how it works. I once worked for a company where we got to interview prospective bosses. Candidate #1 was voluntarily leaving her company after many years of service and was highly qualified for the job. Candidate #2 was laid off in a company restructuring and it would be a promotion for him if he got the job. I'll leave it up to you to figure out just who my company hired.:-(
Keep in mind, however, that many of those who kept their jobs did so because they were good at sucking up and not necessarily good at their jobs (unless sucking up was their job). Sadly, many folks got hired during the dotcom era who really only got their jobs because companies needed warm bodies to fill positions. They survived the downturn because they were politically savvy.
If they don't agree then go see what the marketplace will pay you by getting another job offer somewhere else.
I'd argue that prospective employers who are asking about your current salary are doing so because they are clueless or cheap, neither of which is good for a prospective candidate. If they're clueless then they're probably hiring because someone told them they needed an administrator, but they won't value your contributions because they don't know what it is that you really do. If they're cheap then they probably just want the least expensive candidate.
I get lots of requests for my contract programming talent, and I never respond to people who include statements like "tell us what you charge" in the initial contact. They're shopping, and it's a waste of my time to reply.
To expect this place to remain the playground of elite coders is rather myopic and narrowminded. We are astronomers, geneticist, sci-fi geeks, and just general knowledge lovers.
Agreed. But that doesn't mean that there aren't a lot of really good coders and ops folks who post comments. I'd like to think (though I could be wrong) that the other topics make it on the site because of the coders, not in spite of them. Although I'm a professional developer, all the things you list fall into my interest areas.
Which was why I asked a lot of questions of a lot of people with a lot of experience.
So I'm curious - when you bothered these people, did you have a project you were working on, or did you just to it for your own personal edification? My feeling is that if you're doing it just for fun then you should go pay for your information. I value other people's time because I value my own, so if I feel like I'll eventually be able to use that information to contribute something back then I don't mind asking someone for their time.
if you're expereinced enough to ask sophisticated questions, you ought to be smart/resourceful enough to figure it out yourself.
Well, I'd disagree. There are lots of times when you just need more information no matter how smart you are. For what it's worth, when I find a jewel in a post then I'll send the author a comment thanking them for their efforts. It's often just a single piece of missing information that can make or break a project.
Learning by extraction out of context is a great way to learn about more than strictly the answer to a stated question. In my experience, answering the simple fundamental questions (and answering them well) is the true hallmark of really understanding a subject. So even if you get a bad question, you should award yourself brownie points if you still manage to be informative and helpful with an (good) answer.
Hmm, not sure how I feel about this comment. So are you saying that any answer, as long as it's accurate, is useful? If that's the case then I'd strongly disagree. If I ask about data storage and you give me a long diatribe about databases, it's useless if I had really been interested in the best/fastest/cheapest disk drives.
Slashdot Mirror
My opinion != proof. Perhaps the world would be a better place if it was. :-)
For example, on slashdot, what would you consider to be the currency that mediates the exchange of goods?
Eyeballs
Personally, I think the Shuttle is a piece of crap, but I think in defense of the Shuttle itself you have to consider that the loss of both the Challenger and Columbia were due to human error. Challenger launched outside of acceptable weather parameters. Columbia was lost because NASA didn't take the time to research the true effects of foam strikes even though they were initially considered unacceptable. No matter how robust the launch vehicle, you're always going to lose them when people make stupid decisions.
It's interesting to think that if you told ground personnel that they'd be executed if they killed their crews, we'd never launch another vehicle again.
Saturn V baby. I've been criticized for saying it before, but I find it interesting that the CEV is now looking at J-2s instead of SSMEs modified for in-flight start. The F-1 is still one of the most powerful on the books. To this day, I don't understand why the US space program didn't stick with what worked. Sure, SSMEs share a common ancestory with J-2, and the OMS is a derivative of the SPS, but what ever happened to the old RP-1/LOX combos for heavy lift? There's nothing like 5 F-1s running at full tilt to get your payload to orbit, even if it does take twice as long to clear the gantry.
My goal is not to prove you wrong. You placed me in a position of defending my opinion and I am doing just that. At the end of the day, this is a discussion about what type of community we each want. Ultimately, the marketplace will decide what is best. And that's ok with me because I think that truly free markets generally behave in their own best interest.
Ok, either I'm really good or you need to get out more. Probably the latter. :-)
Do you sense a certain imbalance of standards here?
Not really. I don't see bring any problem with bringing a positive worldview into the picture, but I do see a problem with bringing a negative one. I guess what I'm saying is that if you can't be positive, at least be neutral.
On the other hand, you're asking me to leave behind any bias I may have from just the few lines *you* wrote. I really don't know how to do that.
This confirms my suspicion that I'm a proxy for others, at least in part.
At the very least I'd have some questions about why you feel justified in saying what you've said.
Did you read my first post? Carefully? I don't think that I could have spelled it out any better. But this is where bias comes into play. Either you didn't take the time to read the post because I pushed a "hot button" for you, or you chose to focus in on the perceived negatives and ignore the rest of the post. I challenge you to reread the post, looking at it from a positive prespective for both the community and the individual. I think that you'll find a lot of great stuff in there.
I admire you for your high ideals, but don't care much for your lack of practical common sense. In fact, I originally percieve that you intentionally suggested such an involved and high commitment solution to his rather innocuous question just to spite him. As in, "lazy bastard! get off your ass and get busy!" That's why I thought you were taunting him.
XXOO :-)
Seriously, I will agree that I was pushing him for something better. If you want to read that as "get off your ass" then so be it. Nothing wrong with that. If he wants to waste community bandwidth, for whatever reason, then he should expect some pushback. From what you're saying, there's never a time when it's legitimate to push somebody to a higher standard. And that's at least part of the reason that we have such problems in DC. These guys make upward of $150K/yr, and somehow we don't expect more out of them. And it's not just limited to Washington either. Sports figures are about the worst, getting paid millions of dollars to play, and then whining about their contracts. Don't even get me started on the baseball strike! :-)
For the forseeable future at least, book are not going to respond to questions or offer feedback... Even ill-formed questions like asmor's has a chance to be interpreted in multiple ways, one of which (hopefully) would end up being useful to the asker.
I totally understand where you're coming from, but I chose to disagree. I think that it's a matter of how you look at life. For example, there are some people who think that it's ok to drive as slow as they want down the road because they want to see the sights. I'm the kind of guy who goes out of his way to make sure that traffic flows smoothly, which means I pay attention to my surroundings and move out of the way of others where I can if it will help them make progress. I'm courteous in heavy traffic, but I also expect others to follow the rules so that we can all do our thing. Nothing pisses me off more than someone who tries to be nice at a 4-way stop by waving me through rather than taking their turn. The system works best when we all follow the rules of the road.
That being said, I think Asmor is a tourist. What's wrong with him parking his car in a lot and taking a side tour rather than driving down the center lane at half speed trying to find his way? From your comments throughout, you seem to think that if he doesn't know what to do next then he's stuck. Ok, let's assume that you're right and that he just doesn't know what to do next. Asking random questions isn't going to
I don't know if it will be of any use to pursue this particular tact. It's splitting hairs. Judgement call, assumption - what *is* the difference? Basically, I thought you called him lazy and I felt it was unjustified.
We all come to the party with preconceived notions. I'm the kind of guy that *assumes* that people are intelligent and hard working because that's the kind of people that I grew up around. In order to get me to think that you're lazy or stupid, you have to prove it. That's when I make a *judgement* call. Interestingly, most people work the other way around. They start out on the assumption that you're lazy and stupid and that you have to prove to them that you're smart. Personally, I think that this is an ego driven mentality, since you're effectively asking people to measure up to your own standards.
Because you expect slashdot to be that community. /*grin*/ slashdot for crying out loud! Okay, on second thought, maybe that isn't so much alarming as...er...funny.
I find it sad that you don't want or expect more from the Slashdot community. I agree that there's a lot of crap here, but let me try giving you an analogy. Right now, there's tons of corruption and stupidity in Washington, DC. Does that mean that you don't want politicians to clean up their act? Do you think that Washington reflects how most Americans feel about their country? What's wrong with wanting a better community?
you know? "teach a man how to fish.." and all that. Don't just brag about how good you are and taunt someone else for being a bad fisherman (for whatever reason).
As I said in my original post, Asmor provided virtually no context in which to have any reasonable discussion. Read his post again. He talks about code reuse, storage, and programming languages. Perhaps you're right that he didn't have enough information in which to frame the discussion, but then I'd say that he shouldn't be throwing around such big terms. Why didn't he say something like "I've got two games written in Perl and I'm reusing some of the code. How do you suggest that I avoid duplicating functions?" Without any such detail, I can only put him into the category of "general knowledge seeker". From our discussions here I'd say that you probably think that this is a good thing in all circumstances, but frankly I don't. If you want general knowledge, buy a book. If you have specific questions then ask them on Slashdot.
BTW: I totally disagree with your characterization of my comments as "taunting", although you're free to have your own opinion. Perhaps you should read them again carefully without introducing any bias. I think that you'll find that my criticism was quite passive. I use words such as "seems like" and "I feel". To me, taunting someone would follow along the lines of "What kind of asshole would post such a stupid question? Perhaps this dipwad should get a life and stop bothering smart people like me with their pissant posts".
I'm more interested in the perceptive insights and interesting ideas you can offer to challange my own world view and further my own enlightenment. I hope the sentiment is mutual.
Absolutely.
I've been a long time Mandriva user and finally gave up after installing 2006. Sadly, Mandriva has never been able to shake the "every other release is a piece of crap" syndrome. I had high hopes that a yearly release cycle would fix things, but it didn't. I was also got really tired of trying to find an update mirror that worked. I finally called their US number and got some guy who told me that for $1,000/year that I could have access to a stable mirror. I was shocked to say the least. I love the club and had no problem paying the fee. Shouldn't my club dollars get me access to a stable mirror?
My new distro of choice is Ubuntu. I like the whole Debian stability thing but didn't like their release methodology. We've built dependencies on newer releases of OSS (like MySQL 4.1) and didn't want to wait an indeterminite amount of time for the next release. Ubuntu seems to fill the gap between super-stable distros lile Debian and the bleeding-edge releases like Mandriva. I need to be certain that when I update my kernel that my machines won't lock up (happened on two different Mandriva releases) but I don't necessarily want to be running the 2.4 kernel either.
Sorry for not clarifying. I was talking about you or Asmor or Slashdot editors or anyone else who we've directly engaged in the discussion. Sure, I think that people who clearly flame someone for no good reason are jerks. Can we at least agree on that point?
I find it very telling you consistantly ignore the option of simply not responding to the likes of asmor.
Actually, I did. I said that Ask Slashdot has been flooded with these types of questions and that it was driving away experienced folks, thereby making Ask Slashdot less useful for people like me. You might not like the reason that I gave, but I did give a reason. And ignoring Asmor's post just makes matters worse.
Then you suggest he place himself under the wings of a trained academic, of the type you belong to.
I'm definitely not in the category of "trained academic". I couldn't convince myself that spending $100K to get a PhD in a field that I know a lot about to take a job that paid 1/3 of the industry was worth the time, effort, or money. :-) My appointment for was for one year and was subsequently filled by a candidate with all of the qualifications.
I don't particularly percieve (or care) that you don't like me...
This is a curious comment, especially since I just said that you "seem like an intelligent guy with well reasoned opinions". Do I need to end all my posts with XXOO?
I'm just a little alarmed at the seriousness of your attitude, that you genuinely believe squelching curiosity and questioning of the more basic variety is actually good for a community which thrives on knowledge and creativity.
"A community which thrives on knowledge and creativity" is a matter of definition. You see it broad, I see it narrow. Why is it alarming that I should want to be a part of a community that's geared toward more advanced users? Should I expect that every community to which I belong *must* deal with n00bs whether it wants to or not? Should I keep my subscription to Linux Journal if all the articles are on bash scripts and Linux installers?
but your assumption that someone ought to do so because they're being lazy *is*
My exact quote was "I don't want to judge this guy too quickly, but virtually the entire question reads as though he's lazy." Meaning that I read the post in its entirety and came to the conclusion that he wasn't making an effort based on his own words. It's a judgement call, which is far different than an assumption.
No one should forget how hard it is to first start out on something.
When I was a kid, I was really interested in the space program. At that time, information was virtually impossible to find. These days, information abounds, and starting about four years ago I decided to become as well-versed in the topic as I could be. I read book after book, scoured the Internet for tidbits, and bought videos of engineering tests. I've become something of an expert on the topic of the space program through the Apollo years (a friend who works for Boeing on their rocket program was quite impressed with my knowledge and library), and yet not once did I take the time of any expert to satisfy my curiosity, even after spending days researching quindar tones. I guess my point here (somewhat long-winded) is that I find myself being a n00b almost every day, and yet I find virtually everything I need with the resources that are readily available through Google and the public library.
Remember the good old days of carrying around boxes full of punchcards, only to lose control of the box and watch the cards scatter when they hit the floor? I can't imagine what it would be like trying to piece together the code on the marble slab that's broken into bits (or bytes :-)
Boy, you really do lack self respect. Never once did I even imply that I thought anyone was a jerk, nor would I make such a statement. All I've said is that I didn't think the post was appropriate.
It's about public respect and social etiquette...
You can't be serious. On Slashdot? :-)
Seriously, we have a problem in our society of people being offended far too easily. Somehow we've gotten to the point where people assume that disagreement means disrespect. You've gotta get over the fact that just because I don't like your idea doesn't mean that I don't like you as a person. For the purpose of this discussion, you seem like an intelligent guy with well reasoned opinions. I just think that you're wrong.
Having said that, I'd like you to point to a single example of any of my posts (either this thread or others) in which I've been disrespectful. I doubt that you'll find any, unless you somehow think that "RTFM" is disrespectful.
For the record, I don't think that I'm being overly sensitive here. You seemed to make the logical progression from being elite to being disrespectful and lacking etiquette. If I am being reactive then just tell me to FOAD. I promise that I won't take it personally. :-)
Those who don't participate in your discussions are not obligated to because the facility is just as much theirs as it is yours.
I've conceeded the point in an earlier post that Slashdot is as much yours as mine, so I have no idea what you're fishing for here. I think that you want me to say that I was wrong in criticizing Asmor's post. I'm just not sure that you've made your case that I was unfair in my comments.
I get the feeling that I've become a proxy for every rude and inconsiderate comment that you've ever seen on Slashdot. I think that you need to learn the distinction between comments that are made for the betterment of the community and those intended to make the poster look better at the expense of another. I've been trying real hard to find any comment that I've made that would fit the second category and have yet to find any.
Ok, but half of those 400 posts are you and me, so what does that say? ;-)
I don't think posts on CVS or Subversion are what this guy was looking for, unless I totally misunderstood his question. The initial question was more along the lines of code structuring. I just re-read the question, and while he briefly mentions code storage, the question is clearly much more about partitioning. The fact that we can't even agree on the question is somewhat troubling to me.
By the way, I'm genuinely curious where you learned about CVS/Subversion-type tools in school.
Back in the mid 80s, there was no such thing as source control, at least not for the masses. In fact, virtually all the tools that we take for granted today were not around. Most of my training came from watching what others were doing and then trying to figure out how that fit into my little world view. So to answer your question directly, I picked up source control in the mid 90s while working at a large Fortune 500 company that is often disrespected by those who frequent this site.
However, you don't get to keep that hard earned respect by then complaining about the folks you *don't* want to help.
A few years back I left my high-paying job to take a one-year teaching position at a local university (at 1/3 of the pay). I did this not only to satisfy my curiosity, but I also wanted to give something back in recognition of all the effort that other people had put in to help me get where I was. I taught computer science. I had lots of electrical engineering students in my classes because their department required them to take an entry level programming class. Funny thing was that somehow many of these folks thought that I should take it easy on them because they weren't really a part of my world. Sadly for them, they had me as their teacher. I road their asses just as hard as I did my CS majors. In the end, I believe that they are much better off for the experience because my courses were designed as much to instill work ethic as they were to teach specific subject matter. I also wouldn't have felt good about taking someone's money and then not giving them a challenge. If people go to college to eventually use that knowledge to get a better job, I'm going to do everything in my power to make sure that they get what they need.
If you're successful in keeping the other folks out, pretty soon you wont have anything to write programs about.
Some level of exclusivity is good. In fact, that's why there's a moderation system. I keeps the level of noise down to a minimum for n00bs. I browse at 0 and sometimes even at -1 because I want a more raw, unfiltered view of the world, even if it means that I see the occasional GNAA post.
We don't necesarily enjoy the attention of the advertisers, but that doesn't mean our vision for slashdot and desire for what it might be ought to play second fiddle to the experienced coders.
"Second fiddle" is a just a state of mind. If you really feel this way then your problem isn't a lack of knowledge, it's a lack of self-respect. If I'm in a room of doctors and they're talking shop, I don't feel any like I'm any less of a person. Sure, they can cut out a bad appendix, but can they find a race condition in a multi-threaded app? Personally, I like being anywhere where there are smart people because I listen to what they're saying and then use what I've learned to expand my knowledge base.
I'd suggest that this is because their roles are poorly defined. In this case I have to ask a couple of hard questions. Why do these guys need an admin? Are they incapable of managing their own machines? Are they too busy?
If the role can't be well defined and a business justification made, the position should be scrapped.
You say the responses are often pretty pathetic - have you ever made any effort to raise the level of the discussion by posting useful reponses yourself?
Absolutely. I do it not only on Ask Slashdot but elsewhere on the site. I've gotten my karma through many +5 insightful/informative posts. As I mentioned in my orginal post, I often push back on people who I think are too harsh on Ask Slashdotters. It's just in this case the question was a "motherhood and apple pie" kind of question without any real context. Personally, I fault the editors for even posting the question.
I'm surprised that you don't think that people don't get real work done reading Slashdot. I often get useful leads that I follow up on. For example, a few weeks ago I was complaining about how NFS shares would always hang on me. Someone replied with a suggestion on how to mount them so they don't hang. I spent numerous hours scouring the web for this information, so in this case a single Slashdot post was super helpful.
I guess at the end of the day the editors will choose who it is that they want to frequent the site. I totally agree that software is not written as an end unto itself. But I disagree with your notion that that means the developers and operations folks don't want or need a place to hang out. If that wasn't the intention of Slashdot then why are all the ads geared at the computer professional. Book reviews, banner ads, and sidebar ads are all targeted at guys like me. I never see ads for telescopes or chemistry sets or books on DNA sequencing. That's not to say that there shouldn't be, but the day that I think that Slashdot isn't going to meet at least some of my professional needs is the day that I find someplace else to hang out. Sadly, the quality of articles lately (not just this one but many others throughout the site) has been lacking. I haven't yet decided if this is a problem with this site or if the industry is just going through a slow phase.
Does that mean the general public is better served by not being curious or asking questions?
Nope
And if one is interested, you would expect one to matriculate at the local community college and take a few semsters to cover the materials one didn't get in high school biology?
Possibly. If you're really interested in a subject and you're not willing to seek out the answers on your own then you should train with someone who will spend the time to teach you properly. For all we know, this guy's going to get a bunch of crap answers by posting on Slashdot, so wouldn't he be better served by leaving the teaching to professionals?
So to keep the programmers and computer folks happy, we should set the bar higher for the quality of discussion on those topics and everything else ought to be chump change?
Yes. This might seem like a snap response, but Slashdot wouldn't be what it is without the developer community. If there isn't enough to keep them interested, they'll all just leave. And then what do you have? (Ok, I'll admit, some people might like it better this way. :-)
Would you feel the same way if the guy in question was asking about protein synthesis or DNA sequencing? How much bio-technology training have you had?
Do you really think that this is a topic that would best be answered on Slashdot?
To bring the discussion back to the subject at hand, is anyone paying you to take time and effort to participate on slashdot? What compels you to reply to these posts besides your own free will? Why do you feel obligated to police the level of discussion here? I still don't understand why it is so hard to just ignore the stuff that doesn't interest you.
I've already said that Ask Slashdot could offer so much more, but I really feel like people have given up on it. Look at the number of posts on any average Ask Slashdot and compare that to other categories. The responses are often pretty pathetic. Personally, my hope is that the editors read the comments and take action to get better questions. I know that after they got flamed for dupes that they started referencing previous articles where possible. It hasn't fixed the problem completely, but dupes are down.
Now imagine if instead of helpful comments, some wise guru replied to you with the sentiment that you simply haven't done *enough* brain-racking and you're wasting their time with your pleas for help. (Hmm, I wonder who would be so rude?!) It's not so comfy when *you're* the one needing "just a single piece of missing information that can make or break a project", is it? :-)
So let's just say that this happened with my Asterisk server. I'd just brush the guy off as a jerk and read the good responses. If 80% of the comments where of the RTFM flavor then I'd go back to find better sources because obviously I'd have missed something.
Ultimately, I think the important thing is to foster an environment where not only access, but interest in casual knowledge is encouraged. And you're not going to get that if newbie inquiries are always snubbed.
I don't think casual knowledge is discouraged. I've learned lots about all kinds of topics by reading other's posts.
I'd agree. So I have a question, and I'm really not trying to be condescending here, so please don't take it that way. When you were working for these guys making the equivalent of $3.50, was there anything that was preventing you from leaving and finding a better job?
I think you deserve to work twelve hours per day, six days each week for a dollar an hour.
I started a small business with a friend about three years ago, and in that entire time I have yet to receive a single paycheck for my efforts. I work a minimum of 70 hours a week and lose thousands of dollars each month. In that entire time, I've taken exactly three days of vacation. Why do I do this? Three reasons really. First, I love my work and I love to create new things, Second, I'm providing jobs for other people, which makes me feel like I'm giving back to my community. Third, the long term potential to recoup my investment plus something extra is definitely there, however it is not guaranteed. I could end up working for five years and be stuck with a huge bill that I'll have to personally pay off.
I think that we both are. The difference is that I believe that it's primarily the responsibility of the individual to fix things, and you believe that it's government's responsibility. I'd agree that government can help things, but do you really believe that forcing Walmart to pay health benefits to its workers is going to help make people healthier? If you do, I got a better plan for you that will make a lot more people healthier a whole lot faster. Pass legislation that jails anyone who is more than 20 pounds over weight (including me) because of the associated risks. Also jail the smokers and those who drink in excess. If you did that, society would be virtually free of heart disease, lung cancer, and many other bad things.
Really? So you're telling me that any of the 1 billion in China wouldn't want to leave the oppression of their country to move to the U.S. if we didn't cover their health care expenses? How about another billion in India - would they give up the opportunities afforded to them in the US because of no safety net? Can you explain why immigrants from Mexico, Cuba, and Haiti risk life and limb to enter this country every day? How many Somalians would pass up a life in the US because of no social benefits?
The fact of the matter is that we're so spoiled here in the U.S. that we can't appreciate just how hard life is for a large portion of the rest of the world. When 1,500 people get wiped out in a matter of seconds in the Philippines, I have to appreciate everything that I have. I just wish those who complain about things being broken would put in as much energy into their jobs as they do into whining about the little things.
Apparently you equate the lack of a welfare state with oppression. Very sad. :-(
You mean immigrants don't mind getting completely screwed over by those already in power?
How is not giving someone a handout "screwing them over"? The only way I think that this can happen is if you route all resources through the government, in which case you're correct. If you feel this way, I suggest you move to Cuba or China.
Historically, immigrants have come to the US for two reasons: repression (usually religious) or opportunity. In neither case are these people very interested in a safety net. Also, it has been US policy to push away people who are coming to this country who are coming just for social services. I've experience this personally when I brought my wife in from Canada. I had to prove that I had the means to support her. No cash, no green card.
Because our workers and governments demand too much. When companies have to pay high salaries, top benefits, and meet tons of regulations and pay huge taxes on top of everything then what do you expect? It amazes me when I see legislation that attempts to force large companies to dedicate a portion of their payroll expenses to health care costs for workers. Don't our lawmakers understand that this communist style approach to government will only drive businesses away?
Me personally? I'd hire the right person for the job, regardless of the cost. But that's not always how it works. I once worked for a company where we got to interview prospective bosses. Candidate #1 was voluntarily leaving her company after many years of service and was highly qualified for the job. Candidate #2 was laid off in a company restructuring and it would be a promotion for him if he got the job. I'll leave it up to you to figure out just who my company hired. :-(
Keep in mind, however, that many of those who kept their jobs did so because they were good at sucking up and not necessarily good at their jobs (unless sucking up was their job). Sadly, many folks got hired during the dotcom era who really only got their jobs because companies needed warm bodies to fill positions. They survived the downturn because they were politically savvy.
I'd argue that prospective employers who are asking about your current salary are doing so because they are clueless or cheap, neither of which is good for a prospective candidate. If they're clueless then they're probably hiring because someone told them they needed an administrator, but they won't value your contributions because they don't know what it is that you really do. If they're cheap then they probably just want the least expensive candidate.
I get lots of requests for my contract programming talent, and I never respond to people who include statements like "tell us what you charge" in the initial contact. They're shopping, and it's a waste of my time to reply.
Then what do you make of the Seattle Internet Exchange?
Agreed. But that doesn't mean that there aren't a lot of really good coders and ops folks who post comments. I'd like to think (though I could be wrong) that the other topics make it on the site because of the coders, not in spite of them. Although I'm a professional developer, all the things you list fall into my interest areas.
Which was why I asked a lot of questions of a lot of people with a lot of experience.
So I'm curious - when you bothered these people, did you have a project you were working on, or did you just to it for your own personal edification? My feeling is that if you're doing it just for fun then you should go pay for your information. I value other people's time because I value my own, so if I feel like I'll eventually be able to use that information to contribute something back then I don't mind asking someone for their time.
if you're expereinced enough to ask sophisticated questions, you ought to be smart/resourceful enough to figure it out yourself.
Well, I'd disagree. There are lots of times when you just need more information no matter how smart you are. For what it's worth, when I find a jewel in a post then I'll send the author a comment thanking them for their efforts. It's often just a single piece of missing information that can make or break a project.
Learning by extraction out of context is a great way to learn about more than strictly the answer to a stated question. In my experience, answering the simple fundamental questions (and answering them well) is the true hallmark of really understanding a subject. So even if you get a bad question, you should award yourself brownie points if you still manage to be informative and helpful with an (good) answer.
Hmm, not sure how I feel about this comment. So are you saying that any answer, as long as it's accurate, is useful? If that's the case then I'd strongly disagree. If I ask about data storage and you give me a long diatribe about databases, it's useless if I had really been interested in the best/fastest/cheapest disk drives.
Depends on your current draw. Check out this table. Remember that by time you wire your entire house, there will be several hundred feet of wire.
There's a reason we feed houses with AC.