"Honestly I don't think that I'll ever get a programming job, unless we get another economy like the one we had in the 90's."
In all frankness, the '90s are never coming back. That was a mass delusion among techs, investors, and John Q. Public. Like the infamous tulip market bubble long ago, it's gone gone gone.
No worries about lumping me in with others, it was clear you've heard the insults before and are justifiably frustrated with the job hunt. Totally understandable that it would be a sore point.
Now as for what I may be of use for, here's my best advice:
0) Screw the jobs that mention "paid experience only". Just do it. Develop code. Pick a language that feels right and master it at the keyboard. Most colleges barely get you used to actually writing code, it's mostly an afterthought. Now's the time to nail it, to find out the hard way why base class destructors need to be virtual, what the real difference is between generic globals and static class members, etc. And until you're hacking code it's all just theory. Same with the development tools, particularly the debugger of your favorite IDE. There's no substitute for late nights tracking down how a bad pointer stomped memory and corrupted values elsewhere.
1) Develop your personal projects exactly like you'd expect it to be done in a professional environment. Design it, comment it, write test cases, use a CM system like CVS to manage your code changes, etc. You can't become an elite fighter pilot by flying Cessnas. Likewise you cannot become a skilled software developer unless you actually practice the steps needed to develop good software.
2) Start with a stupid project (I blew at least one high school class writing a D&D character generator during classtime;-) ). Then start branching out. Write write write. Write a small database app that tracks your pets' vaccinations, anything. Shareware would be great, since it involves tossing your code to the wolves of the public. Don't expect to make money, consider the shareware to be experience. Put "Author of AppX, AppY, AppZ" on your resume. What do you enjoy in your life? Write something that applies to it. Make it interesting for yourself.
Steps 0-2 will get you the experience you need. If that sounds like a drag, then yes it may really be time to consider a different career track. If you're not stoked developing code for the sake of doing it, this industry is sheer nighmarish hell. Trust me on that one. Pulling a 100-hour week or back-to-back all-nighters to address a crisis will feel like having your kneecaps sawed off with rusty blades.
If Steps 0-2 sound good, then add in the rest:
3) Find friends, associates, professors, etc. who do have a clue about how you can improve you (the product). Your college should have job counseling services, they can be very helpful. Personal appearance and positive enthusiasm can easily trump a resume that's weak on paid experience. Appearance and enthusiasm coupled with Steps 0-2 are pure gold.
4) Don't be put off by "local candidates only" - that's code for "we won't fly you in for the interview and we won't pay relocation either." Just get there, make it clear you'll relocate yourself if they like you.
5) Go to job fairs at nearby cities. Ask people upfront what they're looking for, and if you you detect a trend then acquire those skills on your own (via your personal projects). Bring a laptop with your software on it. Demo the application(s), walk them through the code. Enthusiasm sells, as does quality work.
6) Address other areas of your life that may be wearing you down. Sometimes it's hard to be upbeat and chase the brass ring when your life is beating you down. Are you holding yourself back? Is someone else? Do you see obstacles, consider things out of your control, and give in to defeat? Or do you sit back and figure how to continually attack the problem differently to get around it? Always see your own role in things, and then a
"It always pisses me off when people basically call me a shill just because I got a CS degree and haven't got a job in what I want. "
I'm going to be flat-out honest here, because I'm genuinely trying to help with whatever my perspective is worth. Your reaction to my post makes me think you may interview poorly and may not "play well with others". At no point did I refer to anyone with a genuine interest, CS degree but no job in a derogatory manner. I never called you a poser. But let's examine your reaction - extremely defensive. It "pissed you off", even though in my post I specifically mention I wasn't addressing you but a general audience. Also I was clearly referring to those who 1) Weren't truly CS enthusiasts and 2) Sought instant riches. Clearly you do not fit those points, yet chose to be personally offended anyway.
Now if that's just a Slashdot post, how do you think that might translate in a work environment where daily communication is filled with dozens of opportunities to be taken the wrong way? Or an interview where the code test isn't going well? Or if an interviewer's comment is taken wrongly as a subtle jab?
But you're obviously distressed, and not finding work you want would understandably cause that. Let's focus on solving a problem and react less, eh?
The following are not optional in today's work environment, they are required:
Relevant skill set
Professionalism
Interpersonal skills / communication
Reality? A lot of folks are very weak in at least one of those areas. And all of us can always improve in each of those areas - it's career development, personal development. It never ends.
So as a general exercise, what are the reasons you have not found a job? List them for yourself, show them to friends/family (and here, for that matter) and ask how many of the reasons are defeatist or blame others. You're the product. Improve the product. Always, every day.
What's your current skill set and background? Let's take an inventory and see what your resume looks like. Also what have you been doing with your time during this unsuccessful job hunting?
You say you're willing to work for $25K/year. Are you willing to work for free? Because I (and many of us here) have. Open source is a great way to develop code skills. Shareware applications, learning not only how to develop but release, maintain and support a product - that's tremendous experience. No sense in wasting 3-5 years only looking for work when you could be doing the work at the same time.
If you've been doing the OSS and/or shareware development, is it on your resume? Is it relevant to the advertised position?
You say you can't find entry level jobs - where have you been looking? Are you willing to relocate? What types of jobs have you been applying for? What are your expectations? Are they in line with the reality on the ground?
I'm already suggesting you take a hard look at your interpersonal skills because "why won't you hire me?" leaps off of people's faces in interviews. You can't mask attitude, you can only change it.
Ask your friends and family to be painfully honest. Ask them if they see things in you that might need improvement regarding the list above. Ask companies who reject you for suggestions of what you could improve on, what would have made you a better fit. (Legally they're on the hook, so don't always expect frank replies, if any.) Again you're the product. Improve the product. Always, every day.
I may find myself unemployed tomorrow and unable to get paid as a software engineer for years to follow, but I'll never stop developing software. I love it. It's what I've done professionally and as a hobby prior for nearly 25 years. If I'm packing groceries at the corner store to pay the bills that's cool, I'll still be developing software. And with better hours too!;-)
Sounds like you're the same. If so, what other career paths have you considered? Like other
Yes, please! It's not the age nearly as much as the miles.:-) Seriously though, I figure I'm about halfway through my career with about 16-17 years under my belt. My earning potential? I'm probably nearing the top unless I migrate into high-power project management but I like keeping my hands in the code. We'll see.
"I've done some salary negotiation in the past that has turned out well and have gotten a couple of unsolicited "out of cycle" raises at my current job... "
Sounds like you're doing fine to me in that case. I'm afraid I don't have any specific tips beyond negotiating realistically and professionaly, plus knowing your true value as well as your perceived value to the company. If the true and perceived are out of line, problems will arise either way. Bring them in line by discussing with your potential employer.
At my current company I made it clear during the interview that I in no way wanted to be a square peg in a round hole. If they didn't have a job that fit my particular experience and skill set, it would be best for all involved if I moved on. And it's true - it would harm my reputation to be in over my head and unable to do the job right. I could always come back later if a good fit arose. It also tipped me off when the first offer came that they were convinced I was a good fit, and hence had some negotiating leverage.
As for negotiating points, salary, starting bonus, relocation, an extra week of vacation (either totally free or the option to "buy" it from the company) - these are the main areas I consider.
In general a company would much rather pay a starting bonus than give an increase in salary. Salary is "the gift that keeps on giving" whereas a starting bonus is a one-time shot that won't disrupt their relative pay scales.
If a company won't budge on salary, try for a starting bonus. Hey even $500 is $500 you wouldn't have had before. A shiny new homebuilt linux box or a new Mac mini to play with at home and sharpen your skills? Or pay down your credit cards? Or put it into a savings or vacation account?
In many companies the HR rep you're dealing with is not the one setting the salary. This makes it easier (if you're on good terms with the HR rep - remember, people skills) to ask upfront about how counter-offers are perceived and what options their may be to ask for. Not always a sure thing, but a friendly HR contact is a definite advantage.
Now as for actual percentages to counter-offer with? I don't have any. Every situation is unique. I've counter-offered with specific numbers successfully, I've also done it with the "can your company offer any better than that" strategy successfully. The latter approach works best if they really want you. You haven't given them a solid number, but they know their first isn't working. Do they risk losing you to a second sub-par offer? More than likely (*IF*) they want you, they err on the side of as high as they can go. It's a game of good-natured chicken at that point.
Personally I've never counter-offered more than 4-5%. A company that truly tries to low-ball me is NOT a company I want to be working for anyway. Once again knowing your own true value is key. Being honest with your self is critical - neither selling yourself short nor considering yourself god's gift to silicon.
That's probably more than you wanted to hear, but I'm hoping it may be a useful perspective for others. We nerds have to stick together.:-)
"You've got to keep in mind that for a lot of people, especially in this economy, they're lucky to be on an interview at all."
That's exactly what they (the companies) want you to think. And to be flat out honest, if you're a junior sysadmin and/or and an MS certified tech or whatever, then they're actually probably right. (Sorry, but that's been my experience seeing the incoming resumes at least.)
Moving beyond that, read this part carefully - It's getting hard to find good computer scientists/software engineers! If you're a skilled developer with a professional attitude and work ethic, and reasonable communication skills, I can assure you that you cannot be easily replaced and are a valuable commodity. Weasel management teams exist that don't believe this, and they lose good people only to spend years cycling through posers. When you're sure YOU are not the weasel (look hard inward, be honest) get the hell out.
My previous employer and new employer have both been having hard times finding the qualified candidates they need. And I'm not talking about "buffet line" job listings with every past, current and future technology listed as a requirement. I'm talking fluffed-up resumes and weak interviews for basic skills (C++ or Java, OOP, DB/ODBC) and I say this from direct experience as an interviewer.
If you're a software engineer who actually loves the field, that passion shows. Those folks who thought a degree in CS (or even an MS Cert or a 4 week course in HTML) sounded like a way to make a lot of money are screwed. The Dot Com bubble and outsourcing has forever ruined that pipe dream. Genuine enthusiasm for the field, however, shows. As does professionalism. And not being an arrogant dork. (Not talking to you directly of course, just speaking in general terms.)
There are a lot of sectors and applications that will simply never be outsourced. Small companies lack the resources to effectively outsource (note that I said "effectively"), financial and gov't (direct or contract, fed/state/local) sectors aren't likely to outsource key functions, etc.
We've all read about the lack of Americans pursuing CS/CE degrees. The crash flushed all the opportunists out of the pipes. Now is the time for those truly interested and passionate about computer science and the art of software development to charge ahead as always.
"IT sector"? That's always been far too inclusive a group for me to discuss accurately as an employment sector. Sysadmins (actual network engineers or specialized CS types), MS Cert techs, software engineers, systems engineers - those are all very different fields with different driving forces.
The MS Cert crowd will be brutalized for the duration. Good sysadmins have fewer jobs to choose from but the opportunities are there, good software engineers are only several years away from being able to write their own (realistic) tickets. Truly skilled systems engineers will actually benefit from outsourcing - after all, someone has to produce the blueprints to build from.
And remember the core point - "Good" doesn't just mean technically excellent. Solid communication skills, professionalism, work ethic, and not being a weanie are ulitmately equally important.
But hey this is just a generic Slashdot post. Any random Penny Arcade is likely to have just as much insight if not more.;-)
"Building this taboo around salaries is a nice psychological means of keeping wages as low as possible."
Exactly. Why should a company pay any more than you're willing to accept? They know that most tech types don't counter-offer. Women in particular seem to think it's rude, but I've noticed techs in general seem not to want to mess with it.
Several years ago a female friend of mine (Masters degree in CS) was excited about an offer she got from a Fortune 500 company. I told her she should counter-offer. She hedged, she paused, she said it would feel uncomfortable. But I made her promise. A few days later she called me over, thrilled to report that they had accepted and she'd be making several thousand more than the original offer. In her mind it was like the Magic Money Fairy had just made an appearance, but it's just common business sense.
I just switched jobs - the new company made me a reasonable offer, but I thought I was worth more. So I made a counter-offer in good faith. The result? An extra $2.5K/yr plus a $3K signing bonus. Money that I never would have seen if I hadn't asked! The job I just left? Same deal, asked for a few thousand more than offered originally. They accepted.
You have to sell them on yourself, and then you have to deliver. Plus you need a set of marketable skills (I do C++/networking/GUI/DB in niche markets). With that in place, I think a counter-offer shows them that you've got some self-respect and ambition. If they don't budge, it's not like their original offer goes away. And in the rare instance they withdraw it, you really didn't want to work there in the first place. Trust me. Assuming you made a reasonable counter-offer, otherwise you come off sounding like a tool. Know your target company, know your perceived value to them.
Switching jobs every 3-5 years is key as well (with some exceptions). At least 3 years shows that you stick around to get things done, and your salary will grow much faster with each jump between companies than by staying on and hoping for those COLA + 1% raises.
The company I'm going back to? Several years have passed, I've expanded my skills, and I'll be making about 40% more than when I left. There's no way I could have gotten 40% in raises in the same time period had I stuck around. But I left with a good reputation and came back in with solid interviews, good reputation and personal references from my latest employer.
Tend that career garden well. Any broken chain of good references/reputation can cost you jobs and tens of thousands of dollars in unrealized salary boosts. Never burn bridges. Let me say that again - NEVER burn bridges.
I'll get off my soapbox now and get back in my rocking chair by the back porch.:-)
"You seriously would prefer to play a game like Half-Life 2 by repeatedly typing "/shoot shotgun @ headcrab;/shoot shotgun @ zombie;/shoot laser @ cyborg-alien-police-thing;" ?
"
Actually I'd go more for:
% hl2 -shoot -headshot -nearest_opponent
% !!
etc., or perhaps make a perl script to loop over it.:-)
So 13,000 years after relatives of these megafauna disappeared from North America, they want to import their cousins?
Seems the continent has had 13,000 years for it's ecosystems to adapt to the current state of things, why screw it up with sudden introduction of species that weren't actually here in the first place? And if so why stop there? I'm sure Velociraptors wandered Texas long ago.
Now if they wanted to bring back to vast herds of buffalo, sure.
"Maybe the person who wrote this has been writing her previous work."
No doubt. Seems to me "an anonymous reader" is either DiDio or her agent trying to jack up the hits related to her "study" in order to show future editors why publishing her tripe is profitable and worthwhile for them.
"Of course, selling them on ebay would mean that the only people who could buy them would be people who already had access to a computer. "
Then again given the stampede, the crushed baby stroller, the lady peeing on herself and the guy swinging the folding chair, suddenly "already had access to a computer" is sounding like a pretty darn desirable filter.;-)
Particularly fascinating that with all of the (formerly) core features that MS has been dropping from Vista, they still somehow find time in the development schedule to screw over an open standard like OpenGL.
WinXP SP3 - Now with fewer features and less compatibility than ever!
"So, how many STDs are transmitted through abstinence?"
If it's anything like the "abstinence" some Fundie acquaintances of mine in high school practiced, perhaps plenty. You could have driven a NIH shuttle through the loopholes they had for what "didn't count". Add in their general lack of sex ed and let STD transmission statistics do the rest.
"From what I can tell I never understood why Science debates with Religion."
Science debates religion when religion tries to dictate what is science and what is not. The dynamic is as old as... well the scientific method itself.
Why was the discovery that Earth orbits the sun such a contentious issue in Europe? Because the Catholic church "knew" it couldn't be true. Why has Creationism been constantly injected into the topic of science education in U.S. schools? Same reason.
Science is forced to argue with religion because particularly in the U.S. there are religious types who try to derail science education and replace it with their particular religious indoctrination.
"From the sounds of it you could probably use a bit of the latter as you've obviously got too much of the former..."
I consider myself deeply religious. But I know it has no place in science. Science is governed by the scientific method, religion is governed by faith.
"I always appreciated the level of maturity on this IntraWeb Page."
You dismiss an entire field of science out of hand, obviously without any background in the field or even bothering to dig a little, then yes you're going to be treated like buffoon. And a lazy one at that.
Welcome to the world. The "Faked Moon Landing" crowd gets the same treatment for the same reason. Meanwhile the rest of the world is busy moving science ahead. Like I said, this country is feeling more "B Ark" every day.
It always amazes me how Creationists are fine with biological science that's convenient for them (medical advances, etc.) but then loudly protest when it shows the planet (and life on it) to be more than several thousand years old. Laughable.
"Somehow, I doubt the media has missed an opportunity as large as proof that evolution is, indeed, fact."
Come to think of it, I haven't seen the media "confirming" that the sky is generally blue either. Hmmm.
You speak of it as if it's WMD caches in Iraq, with the motherload lurking undiscovered. That's not how the field of evolutionary biology has unfolded. But nice try.
Perhaps you could actually be bothered to read the last few decades of journals in the field?
"Intelligent Design certainly has a place in the classroom. But not the biology or science classrooms."
Exactly. It's pretty simple - if the scientific method can be appropriately applied to a problem related to natural sciences, and it passes muster, then by all means include whatever you want.
But when they try to drag in The Benevolent Boogie Man In The Sky and his fleet of Earth-supporting Space Turtles into it, for crying out loud folks IT IS NOT SCIENCE!
This is truly the meat in the Novell case. They must know that NewSCO itself is small potatoes. Novell also mentions they rejected NewSCO's invitation to join in the SCOSource initiative because it sounded like a scheme.
I think Novell is now hoping discovery will reveal evidence that NewSCO approached Sun and MS with the same scheme offer prior to launching their war against Linux.
If Novell can show Sun or MS acting with some fraudulent intent (shakedown, FUD to keep Linux down, etc.) then just imagine how big the pot of gold at the end of that litigation rainbow would be.
In the end Novell may be the one laughing all the way to the bank as a result of the NewSCO fiasco.
"The iBook is a dead horse. OK, it's not horrible for $1000.00 but they could do better."
I still think the 12" 1.2GHz G4 iBook is the sweet spot in terms of function, performance and value. I pimped mine out with 1.25GB RAM, and with the Airport built in it's one sweet mobile unit.
I'ts solid, it's got good battery life (GHz don't come free when you figure in battery life), and the thing just constantly works.
I've had Macs going back to the 512K "Fat Mac" way back when, and I consider my iBook to the best "bang for the buck" so far.
If this one got ripped off, I'd replace it immediately with the equivalent sibling today.
"Is there some kind of law against this or do people just like to keep bringing it up like there is something wrong with it."
In this case it's the gold standard for irony that makes it so appealing to point out - MS poached the top layers of Borland like a drunken duck hunter, dozens upon dozens of top staff. And suddenly MS doesn't like it being done to themselves. Waaah.
Corporate karma is a bitch, and MS's corporate karma is in heat.
3. Pay off gov't or company suing them.
4. Profit.
With all the dirt that's coming up as one antitrust suit cascades into another though, I start to wonder just how long Step 4 will remain viable for MS. Especially after the US$850 million settlement with IBM (which only settled some of the claims there, IIRC).
To paraphrase a famous quote from a US Congressman, "A billion here, a billion there, pretty soon you're talking about real money."
Karma's a bitch, and MS has bad karma by the cargo ship load to burn off.
Slashdot Mirror
"Honestly I don't think that I'll ever get a programming job, unless we get another economy like the one we had in the 90's."
In all frankness, the '90s are never coming back. That was a mass delusion among techs, investors, and John Q. Public. Like the infamous tulip market bubble long ago, it's gone gone gone.
No worries about lumping me in with others, it was clear you've heard the insults before and are justifiably frustrated with the job hunt. Totally understandable that it would be a sore point.
Now as for what I may be of use for, here's my best advice:
0) Screw the jobs that mention "paid experience only". Just do it. Develop code. Pick a language that feels right and master it at the keyboard. Most colleges barely get you used to actually writing code, it's mostly an afterthought. Now's the time to nail it, to find out the hard way why base class destructors need to be virtual, what the real difference is between generic globals and static class members, etc. And until you're hacking code it's all just theory. Same with the development tools, particularly the debugger of your favorite IDE. There's no substitute for late nights tracking down how a bad pointer stomped memory and corrupted values elsewhere.
1) Develop your personal projects exactly like you'd expect it to be done in a professional environment. Design it, comment it, write test cases, use a CM system like CVS to manage your code changes, etc. You can't become an elite fighter pilot by flying Cessnas. Likewise you cannot become a skilled software developer unless you actually practice the steps needed to develop good software.
2) Start with a stupid project (I blew at least one high school class writing a D&D character generator during classtime ;-) ). Then start branching out. Write write write. Write a small database app that tracks your pets' vaccinations, anything. Shareware would be great, since it involves tossing your code to the wolves of the public. Don't expect to make money, consider the shareware to be experience. Put "Author of AppX, AppY, AppZ" on your resume. What do you enjoy in your life? Write something that applies to it. Make it interesting for yourself.
Steps 0-2 will get you the experience you need. If that sounds like a drag, then yes it may really be time to consider a different career track. If you're not stoked developing code for the sake of doing it, this industry is sheer nighmarish hell. Trust me on that one. Pulling a 100-hour week or back-to-back all-nighters to address a crisis will feel like having your kneecaps sawed off with rusty blades.
If Steps 0-2 sound good, then add in the rest:
3) Find friends, associates, professors, etc. who do have a clue about how you can improve you (the product). Your college should have job counseling services, they can be very helpful. Personal appearance and positive enthusiasm can easily trump a resume that's weak on paid experience. Appearance and enthusiasm coupled with Steps 0-2 are pure gold.
4) Don't be put off by "local candidates only" - that's code for "we won't fly you in for the interview and we won't pay relocation either." Just get there, make it clear you'll relocate yourself if they like you.
5) Go to job fairs at nearby cities. Ask people upfront what they're looking for, and if you you detect a trend then acquire those skills on your own (via your personal projects). Bring a laptop with your software on it. Demo the application(s), walk them through the code. Enthusiasm sells, as does quality work.
6) Address other areas of your life that may be wearing you down. Sometimes it's hard to be upbeat and chase the brass ring when your life is beating you down. Are you holding yourself back? Is someone else? Do you see obstacles, consider things out of your control, and give in to defeat? Or do you sit back and figure how to continually attack the problem differently to get around it? Always see your own role in things, and then a
"It always pisses me off when people basically call me a shill just because I got a CS degree and haven't got a job in what I want. "
I'm going to be flat-out honest here, because I'm genuinely trying to help with whatever my perspective is worth. Your reaction to my post makes me think you may interview poorly and may not "play well with others". At no point did I refer to anyone with a genuine interest, CS degree but no job in a derogatory manner. I never called you a poser. But let's examine your reaction - extremely defensive. It "pissed you off", even though in my post I specifically mention I wasn't addressing you but a general audience. Also I was clearly referring to those who 1) Weren't truly CS enthusiasts and 2) Sought instant riches. Clearly you do not fit those points, yet chose to be personally offended anyway.
Now if that's just a Slashdot post, how do you think that might translate in a work environment where daily communication is filled with dozens of opportunities to be taken the wrong way? Or an interview where the code test isn't going well? Or if an interviewer's comment is taken wrongly as a subtle jab?
But you're obviously distressed, and not finding work you want would understandably cause that. Let's focus on solving a problem and react less, eh?
The following are not optional in today's work environment, they are required:
Reality? A lot of folks are very weak in at least one of those areas. And all of us can always improve in each of those areas - it's career development, personal development. It never ends.
So as a general exercise, what are the reasons you have not found a job? List them for yourself, show them to friends/family (and here, for that matter) and ask how many of the reasons are defeatist or blame others. You're the product. Improve the product. Always, every day.
What's your current skill set and background? Let's take an inventory and see what your resume looks like. Also what have you been doing with your time during this unsuccessful job hunting?
You say you're willing to work for $25K/year. Are you willing to work for free? Because I (and many of us here) have. Open source is a great way to develop code skills. Shareware applications, learning not only how to develop but release, maintain and support a product - that's tremendous experience. No sense in wasting 3-5 years only looking for work when you could be doing the work at the same time.
If you've been doing the OSS and/or shareware development, is it on your resume? Is it relevant to the advertised position?
You say you can't find entry level jobs - where have you been looking? Are you willing to relocate? What types of jobs have you been applying for? What are your expectations? Are they in line with the reality on the ground?
I'm already suggesting you take a hard look at your interpersonal skills because "why won't you hire me?" leaps off of people's faces in interviews. You can't mask attitude, you can only change it.
Ask your friends and family to be painfully honest. Ask them if they see things in you that might need improvement regarding the list above. Ask companies who reject you for suggestions of what you could improve on, what would have made you a better fit. (Legally they're on the hook, so don't always expect frank replies, if any.) Again you're the product. Improve the product. Always, every day.
I may find myself unemployed tomorrow and unable to get paid as a software engineer for years to follow, but I'll never stop developing software. I love it. It's what I've done professionally and as a hobby prior for nearly 25 years. If I'm packing groceries at the corner store to pay the bills that's cool, I'll still be developing software. And with better hours too! ;-)
Sounds like you're the same. If so, what other career paths have you considered? Like other
"Would you like some help there, grandpa? "
Yes, please! It's not the age nearly as much as the miles. :-) Seriously though, I figure I'm about halfway through my career with about 16-17 years under my belt. My earning potential? I'm probably nearing the top unless I migrate into high-power project management but I like keeping my hands in the code. We'll see.
I blabbed endlessly in a post below (The Myth of the Software Engineer/CS Glut), so I'll just add to that here and let those points stand.
"I've done some salary negotiation in the past that has turned out well and have gotten a couple of unsolicited "out of cycle" raises at my current job ... "
Sounds like you're doing fine to me in that case. I'm afraid I don't have any specific tips beyond negotiating realistically and professionaly, plus knowing your true value as well as your perceived value to the company. If the true and perceived are out of line, problems will arise either way. Bring them in line by discussing with your potential employer.
At my current company I made it clear during the interview that I in no way wanted to be a square peg in a round hole. If they didn't have a job that fit my particular experience and skill set, it would be best for all involved if I moved on. And it's true - it would harm my reputation to be in over my head and unable to do the job right. I could always come back later if a good fit arose. It also tipped me off when the first offer came that they were convinced I was a good fit, and hence had some negotiating leverage.
As for negotiating points, salary, starting bonus, relocation, an extra week of vacation (either totally free or the option to "buy" it from the company) - these are the main areas I consider.
In general a company would much rather pay a starting bonus than give an increase in salary. Salary is "the gift that keeps on giving" whereas a starting bonus is a one-time shot that won't disrupt their relative pay scales.
If a company won't budge on salary, try for a starting bonus. Hey even $500 is $500 you wouldn't have had before. A shiny new homebuilt linux box or a new Mac mini to play with at home and sharpen your skills? Or pay down your credit cards? Or put it into a savings or vacation account?
In many companies the HR rep you're dealing with is not the one setting the salary. This makes it easier (if you're on good terms with the HR rep - remember, people skills) to ask upfront about how counter-offers are perceived and what options their may be to ask for. Not always a sure thing, but a friendly HR contact is a definite advantage.
Now as for actual percentages to counter-offer with? I don't have any. Every situation is unique. I've counter-offered with specific numbers successfully, I've also done it with the "can your company offer any better than that" strategy successfully. The latter approach works best if they really want you. You haven't given them a solid number, but they know their first isn't working. Do they risk losing you to a second sub-par offer? More than likely (*IF*) they want you, they err on the side of as high as they can go. It's a game of good-natured chicken at that point.
Personally I've never counter-offered more than 4-5%. A company that truly tries to low-ball me is NOT a company I want to be working for anyway. Once again knowing your own true value is key. Being honest with your self is critical - neither selling yourself short nor considering yourself god's gift to silicon.
That's probably more than you wanted to hear, but I'm hoping it may be a useful perspective for others. We nerds have to stick together. :-)
"You've got to keep in mind that for a lot of people, especially in this economy, they're lucky to be on an interview at all."
That's exactly what they (the companies) want you to think. And to be flat out honest, if you're a junior sysadmin and/or and an MS certified tech or whatever, then they're actually probably right. (Sorry, but that's been my experience seeing the incoming resumes at least.)
Moving beyond that, read this part carefully - It's getting hard to find good computer scientists/software engineers! If you're a skilled developer with a professional attitude and work ethic, and reasonable communication skills, I can assure you that you cannot be easily replaced and are a valuable commodity. Weasel management teams exist that don't believe this, and they lose good people only to spend years cycling through posers. When you're sure YOU are not the weasel (look hard inward, be honest) get the hell out.
My previous employer and new employer have both been having hard times finding the qualified candidates they need. And I'm not talking about "buffet line" job listings with every past, current and future technology listed as a requirement. I'm talking fluffed-up resumes and weak interviews for basic skills (C++ or Java, OOP, DB/ODBC) and I say this from direct experience as an interviewer.
If you're a software engineer who actually loves the field, that passion shows. Those folks who thought a degree in CS (or even an MS Cert or a 4 week course in HTML) sounded like a way to make a lot of money are screwed. The Dot Com bubble and outsourcing has forever ruined that pipe dream. Genuine enthusiasm for the field, however, shows. As does professionalism. And not being an arrogant dork. (Not talking to you directly of course, just speaking in general terms.)
There are a lot of sectors and applications that will simply never be outsourced. Small companies lack the resources to effectively outsource (note that I said "effectively"), financial and gov't (direct or contract, fed/state/local) sectors aren't likely to outsource key functions, etc.
We've all read about the lack of Americans pursuing CS/CE degrees. The crash flushed all the opportunists out of the pipes. Now is the time for those truly interested and passionate about computer science and the art of software development to charge ahead as always.
"IT sector"? That's always been far too inclusive a group for me to discuss accurately as an employment sector. Sysadmins (actual network engineers or specialized CS types), MS Cert techs, software engineers, systems engineers - those are all very different fields with different driving forces.
The MS Cert crowd will be brutalized for the duration. Good sysadmins have fewer jobs to choose from but the opportunities are there, good software engineers are only several years away from being able to write their own (realistic) tickets. Truly skilled systems engineers will actually benefit from outsourcing - after all, someone has to produce the blueprints to build from.
And remember the core point - "Good" doesn't just mean technically excellent. Solid communication skills, professionalism, work ethic, and not being a weanie are ulitmately equally important.
But hey this is just a generic Slashdot post. Any random Penny Arcade is likely to have just as much insight if not more. ;-)
"Building this taboo around salaries is a nice psychological means of keeping wages as low as possible."
Exactly. Why should a company pay any more than you're willing to accept? They know that most tech types don't counter-offer. Women in particular seem to think it's rude, but I've noticed techs in general seem not to want to mess with it.
Several years ago a female friend of mine (Masters degree in CS) was excited about an offer she got from a Fortune 500 company. I told her she should counter-offer. She hedged, she paused, she said it would feel uncomfortable. But I made her promise. A few days later she called me over, thrilled to report that they had accepted and she'd be making several thousand more than the original offer. In her mind it was like the Magic Money Fairy had just made an appearance, but it's just common business sense.
I just switched jobs - the new company made me a reasonable offer, but I thought I was worth more. So I made a counter-offer in good faith. The result? An extra $2.5K/yr plus a $3K signing bonus. Money that I never would have seen if I hadn't asked! The job I just left? Same deal, asked for a few thousand more than offered originally. They accepted.
You have to sell them on yourself, and then you have to deliver. Plus you need a set of marketable skills (I do C++/networking/GUI/DB in niche markets). With that in place, I think a counter-offer shows them that you've got some self-respect and ambition. If they don't budge, it's not like their original offer goes away. And in the rare instance they withdraw it, you really didn't want to work there in the first place. Trust me. Assuming you made a reasonable counter-offer, otherwise you come off sounding like a tool. Know your target company, know your perceived value to them.
Switching jobs every 3-5 years is key as well (with some exceptions). At least 3 years shows that you stick around to get things done, and your salary will grow much faster with each jump between companies than by staying on and hoping for those COLA + 1% raises.
The company I'm going back to? Several years have passed, I've expanded my skills, and I'll be making about 40% more than when I left. There's no way I could have gotten 40% in raises in the same time period had I stuck around. But I left with a good reputation and came back in with solid interviews, good reputation and personal references from my latest employer.
Tend that career garden well. Any broken chain of good references/reputation can cost you jobs and tens of thousands of dollars in unrealized salary boosts. Never burn bridges. Let me say that again - NEVER burn bridges.
I'll get off my soapbox now and get back in my rocking chair by the back porch. :-)
"You seriously would prefer to play a game like Half-Life 2 by repeatedly typing "/shoot shotgun @ headcrab;/shoot shotgun @ zombie;/shoot laser @ cyborg-alien-police-thing;" ? "
Actually I'd go more for:
% hl2 -shoot -headshot -nearest_opponent :-)
% !!
etc., or perhaps make a perl script to loop over it.
Fortunately transit security cameras are free from such pesky issues as the fatal mixing of metric and English units of measure.
Thanks, yes. I swear I have got to stop getting my history from the names of prominent Wild West figures.
So let me guess, Black Bart wasn't actually African-American? Dammit! :-)
So 13,000 years after relatives of these megafauna disappeared from North America, they want to import their cousins?
Seems the continent has had 13,000 years for it's ecosystems to adapt to the current state of things, why screw it up with sudden introduction of species that weren't actually here in the first place? And if so why stop there? I'm sure Velociraptors wandered Texas long ago.
Now if they wanted to bring back to vast herds of buffalo, sure.
"Maybe the person who wrote this has been writing her previous work."
No doubt. Seems to me "an anonymous reader" is either DiDio or her agent trying to jack up the hits related to her "study" in order to show future editors why publishing her tripe is profitable and worthwhile for them.
I say avoid the linked article like the plague.
Then again given the stampede, the crushed baby stroller, the lady peeing on herself and the guy swinging the folding chair, suddenly "already had access to a computer" is sounding like a pretty darn desirable filter. ;-)
"Unless that game is Daikatana."
Damn, where's that "+5 Funny_Sad_Insightful" mod when I need one? Of all the days to be out of mod points....
Particularly fascinating that with all of the (formerly) core features that MS has been dropping from Vista, they still somehow find time in the development schedule to screw over an open standard like OpenGL.
WinXP SP3 - Now with fewer features and less compatibility than ever!
"Hollywood (in general) does cheap ascientific things because it makes better movies than the real stuff."
Exactly. Plus can you imagine a scientist scripting the love scene?
"The mass of her heaving bosons betrayed her entanglement with Higgs, the mysterious agent she longed to know but had never seen."
"So, how many STDs are transmitted through abstinence?"
If it's anything like the "abstinence" some Fundie acquaintances of mine in high school practiced, perhaps plenty. You could have driven a NIH shuttle through the loopholes they had for what "didn't count". Add in their general lack of sex ed and let STD transmission statistics do the rest.
"From what I can tell I never understood why Science debates with Religion."
Science debates religion when religion tries to dictate what is science and what is not. The dynamic is as old as... well the scientific method itself.
Why was the discovery that Earth orbits the sun such a contentious issue in Europe? Because the Catholic church "knew" it couldn't be true. Why has Creationism been constantly injected into the topic of science education in U.S. schools? Same reason.
Science is forced to argue with religion because particularly in the U.S. there are religious types who try to derail science education and replace it with their particular religious indoctrination.
"From the sounds of it you could probably use a bit of the latter as you've obviously got too much of the former..."
I consider myself deeply religious. But I know it has no place in science. Science is governed by the scientific method, religion is governed by faith.
"I always appreciated the level of maturity on this IntraWeb Page."
You dismiss an entire field of science out of hand, obviously without any background in the field or even bothering to dig a little, then yes you're going to be treated like buffoon. And a lazy one at that.
Welcome to the world. The "Faked Moon Landing" crowd gets the same treatment for the same reason. Meanwhile the rest of the world is busy moving science ahead. Like I said, this country is feeling more "B Ark" every day.
It always amazes me how Creationists are fine with biological science that's convenient for them (medical advances, etc.) but then loudly protest when it shows the planet (and life on it) to be more than several thousand years old. Laughable.
"Somehow, I doubt the media has missed an opportunity as large as proof that evolution is, indeed, fact."
Come to think of it, I haven't seen the media "confirming" that the sky is generally blue either. Hmmm.
You speak of it as if it's WMD caches in Iraq, with the motherload lurking undiscovered. That's not how the field of evolutionary biology has unfolded. But nice try.
Perhaps you could actually be bothered to read the last few decades of journals in the field?
"since when has Evolution *every* lended itself to the scientific method? It is UNOBSERVABLE..."
It's quite observable. Recent work with yeast in particular. But only if your head isn't planted firmly in the sand. That tends to obscure the view.
"Intelligent Design certainly has a place in the classroom. But not the biology or science classrooms."
Exactly. It's pretty simple - if the scientific method can be appropriately applied to a problem related to natural sciences, and it passes muster, then by all means include whatever you want.
But when they try to drag in The Benevolent Boogie Man In The Sky and his fleet of Earth-supporting Space Turtles into it, for crying out loud folks IT IS NOT SCIENCE!
Mystery Science Theater 3000 maybe, but not science.
I swear the U.S. is seeming more "B Ark" every day....
"For example, you do not know my Driver's License number. Unless I tell you right now, you will die not knowing it."
D00d, we flipped that database months ago.
PS- That haircut isn't you at all. Experiment!
This is truly the meat in the Novell case. They must know that NewSCO itself is small potatoes. Novell also mentions they rejected NewSCO's invitation to join in the SCOSource initiative because it sounded like a scheme.
I think Novell is now hoping discovery will reveal evidence that NewSCO approached Sun and MS with the same scheme offer prior to launching their war against Linux.
If Novell can show Sun or MS acting with some fraudulent intent (shakedown, FUD to keep Linux down, etc.) then just imagine how big the pot of gold at the end of that litigation rainbow would be.
In the end Novell may be the one laughing all the way to the bank as a result of the NewSCO fiasco.
"The iBook is a dead horse. OK, it's not horrible for $1000.00 but they could do better."
I still think the 12" 1.2GHz G4 iBook is the sweet spot in terms of function, performance and value. I pimped mine out with 1.25GB RAM, and with the Airport built in it's one sweet mobile unit.
I'ts solid, it's got good battery life (GHz don't come free when you figure in battery life), and the thing just constantly works.
I've had Macs going back to the 512K "Fat Mac" way back when, and I consider my iBook to the best "bang for the buck" so far.
If this one got ripped off, I'd replace it immediately with the equivalent sibling today.
"Is there some kind of law against this or do people just like to keep bringing it up like there is something wrong with it."
In this case it's the gold standard for irony that makes it so appealing to point out - MS poached the top layers of Borland like a drunken duck hunter, dozens upon dozens of top staff. And suddenly MS doesn't like it being done to themselves. Waaah.
Corporate karma is a bitch, and MS's corporate karma is in heat.
3. Pay off gov't or company suing them.
4. Profit.
With all the dirt that's coming up as one antitrust suit cascades into another though, I start to wonder just how long Step 4 will remain viable for MS. Especially after the US$850 million settlement with IBM (which only settled some of the claims there, IIRC).
To paraphrase a famous quote from a US Congressman, "A billion here, a billion there, pretty soon you're talking about real money."
Karma's a bitch, and MS has bad karma by the cargo ship load to burn off.