The fact that the USA has a few hundred non citizens locked up with no access to the legal system is a much bigger issue then the USA wanting more solid id info on visitors. The first is a violation of human rights, the 2nd is an understandable tho futile attempt at keeping the wrong people out.
> Plus, there's the ever-wonderful option to actually view the document code, and manually correct the hidden formatting bugs that inflict themselves on my Word and OpenOffice.org use from time to time.
Well.. you have a WP background.. given that you are not using some heavily modified OO.o version, I suggest pressing ctrl+f10 in the document editor.. it may look familiar to you (and the keyboard shortcut should be familiar as well.. its in the view menu btw)
> yet to be totally whored out to commerce and regulation. Please keep it on the dl.
Hmm. regulations.. yeah.. guess its still mostly free from those.. but uh.. in quite a few groups the signal/noise ratio is even higher then with e-mail..
As many before me have pointed out, go check a dictionary on that. You cannot be stealing when you do not deprive someone of something.
In casual English, this action is called copying, not stealing.
If you want to poitn at the fact that it is illegal, then illegal copyign is entirely clear and proper English.
Why I object so strongly to using the word stealing?
First of all, it is simply not proper English to call ti stealing, that is not a matter of legal definitions.
Second, the word stealing is used on purpose to call on emotion instead of reason. Understandable that RIAA and friends try that, but don't make the mistake to believe that that makes the term correct in any way.
> Why would they go out and buy something they can get for free?
That has been a good question for a few decades now. The first reason would be because of wanting more of the good stuff and realizing the only way that is goign to happen is by providing an insentive for making more?
I don't think there is a definite answer to the question, but there is the easy to observe fact that despite it being hard to explain, people do buy stuff that they can get for free.
Proof? games have been copied for decades, yet they get sold.
Shareware software, why would it exist at all, and actually work?
The recordign industry would do good to look at those things and try to fidn an answer as to why people buy such things. It might prove to be a lot more effective for saveguardign their business then trying to fight it like they do right now.
I don't think arguing for use of proper words is that much off topic here;P
> but in what twisted reality is it considered more acceptable to give these murderers some kind of credit by calling them "suicide bomber" instead of "homicide bomber"? I say call things what they are. The people are murderers, so call them that.
Calling them homicide or suicide bombers doesn't matter for that, in both case they blow up stuff and very likely kill people.
Why do you insist on using a word that is specifically meant to play on the emotions of the listener? You were asking to call things what they are, so try to be a bit objective then in how you describe them and instead of forcing your personal opinion on peopel, present facts and let them make up their mind.
You are entitled to your opnion and expressing it, just don't try to present it as fact because it is not fact.
> The people who "file share" are thieves, so call them that.
Same problem all over. 1. distributing copyrighted works is not stealing. If you think differently, turn up the exact law text that makes this into stealing, but till you do, it is NOT stealing. copyright law calls it infringement, and that is what it is.
So... maybe stuick to your own advise and call things what they are instead of trying to use words specifically meant to call on the emotions of the listener that happen to be desirable to you.
What you are doing here is a well known propaganda technique btw, it works for a little while..
In fact, it shows the idiocy of how godwins law is used. Calling someone nazi is entirely different from refering to a historical fact. Godwins law should definitely not apply in the later case unless you argue for suppressing information about, and references to a rather nasty but very important little bit of our history.
> If you kill all the petty thugs problems disappear, sure a little good goes out with the garbage, but really very little.
Yeah... humanity only found out a zillion times over the last milenia that that attitude doesn't solve anything.. why not try it again....
Live with it, that view is simplistic and causes way more problems then it ever solves. All that made western civilisation had to find that oen out, they all did, they all got rid of the attitude. Ah well, go back to your stoneage mentality and be happy with it. Just please also go back to stoneage technology while you are at it so we don't have to get bothered with your idiocy.
Wether you agree or not, there is a whole bunch of artists who deal with record companies that are part of the RIAA.
While I agree that those artists have better means of distribution available now, the consumer can still not force them to use those, and implying that refusal to use other means of distribution somehow legitimizes copying without proper license is imho not right.
Compensating for the music industry 'stealing' your money by means of levies and taxes is another thing.
Ok, I can follow that. One thing tho, most people really have no need for learnign HTML and XML, they are simply not gonna use it other then by a tool that generates and displays it for them. For those who do need or want such things the story changes, but really.. do you think joe sixpack wants or needs to know xml????
Having said that, I wish you the best with your ideas for LaTeX and LyX, something better is always desirable, and wanting a situation where people simply do not ever need to write/edit a markup languae doesn't mean there is nothing to gain from havign the markup language for those who do want/need it still.
Uh, it seems to me we do not agree at all except for that something like LaTeX will be a good solution for some specific cases. You suggest that it would be the best solution for most, and I suggest it would be a horrible solution for most. It also seems to me that you are actually responding to MS Office specifically, I am talking about integrated office suites like OO.o, MS Office, KOffice and whatever else you may find.
I was talking about the features that programs like MS Office and OO.o offer and how those features work for the end-user, NOT about Word specifically.
Now stop ignoring I was NOT, I repeat: NOT talking about Microsoft Office specifically but about integrated Office packages in general, being it MS Office, KOffice, OO.o, or whatever other packages you can think of that aim at the same market segment, and I have been trying to point out to you endlessly that that market segment has different needs then LyX and LaTeX and that there are OTHER market segments where things like LyX and LaTeX are more appropriate.
Making better tools is always a good idea, and when making them for yourself, theres not much need to look beyond your own needs. When discussing the requirements for an Office package in general, we talk about a lot more then your personal requirements.
So again, stop sticking this to MS Office/Word, and try for once to think Office suites in general versus specialized programs in general (regardless of which specific program) That OO.o supports pdf while MS Office doesn't is a good argument for using OO.o instead, just one of the many good arguiments, but for the discussion about general purpose tool vs specialist tool, this is simply not relevant at all, it is relevant when talking about compatibility.
Last but not least, while I know that it is technically very possible to solve almost every conceivable situation that has to do with producing paper documents from text on a computer with programs like LaTeX, that is completely and utterly irrelevant to the average home and small business user because it requires them to get technical skills that are simply not in their interest in any other way and are completely and utterly outside their way of thinking and every other day to day need they have. Realize it is very easy to learn yet another markup language, it is pretty difficult to learn the first one when you do not even have a vague idea of how a computer might work internally. The fact that they do not have to learn such things for using programs like OO.o is the single most important reason why such end-users will prefer it over LaTeX (even with LyX) Without having to know much, they still feel they are in control. This is completely about psychology, and has nothing whatsoever to do with technology.
When a user learns how to make small changes to the layout of a word document, they learned at the same time how to do similar things in a painting program, a webpage publishing tool, and a zilion other programs that they use for fun or work. FOr that single reason it pays off for them to invest time into learning to do such a thing, it also helps with lots and lots of other things. As mentioned before, learning TeX gets you exactly ONE thing, you can read/write TeX. It is a completely useless skill as soon as you do anything else, hence the investment in time is higher, and has a lower return.
> Unregulated P2P doens't affect CD sales -- c'mon, how stupid can this debate get? If the network gets faster, and the P2P reliability better, and the increasing ease of CD-burners, and printers, etc.
The few times I bought a CD in the last few years its because I wanted the disc and original printed material, not some very usable but visually crappy recordable and cheap inkjet printer output.
This has to do with some CDs beign colelctables, it is about a bit more then the music thats on it.
When I just want the music, I goto the library, rent the cd, and copy it. Irronically, that is fully legal overhere (the Netherlands)
> A clean install of XP usually takes care of everything.
That solution has worked since the early days of Windows 95 and NT... its kindof sad that they still didn't manage to provide somethign better while also aiming at the non technical user.
Being from the Netherlands myself, I'd think my judgement is somewhat biassed, but I completely agree (and heh, the mud throwing contest is too plain to miss anyway)
Well, there are quite a few variations on the multi party system. When looking at the system we have in the Netherlands for example, the government is actually appointed by the head of state based on advise from the larger parties. It is not unusual for the prime minister to come from the biggest party, but it is definitely not always true.
Consensus is desirable but not required.
A situation where one party has an absolute majority in both houses of parliament... possible in theory but hasn't happened here in a long time (I'm not sure if it happened at all) and the traditions here make it very unlikely. Also, as I already mentioned, representativee don't have to follow party lines and it happens often that they don't.
That system is not perfect of course, and if it is better or not is besides the point.
There is a lot to say for the stricter seperation like in the Usa, but a better representation of the whole variety of political ideas is desirable.
Discussion about a seperately elected prime minister comes up every few years here.
It is very hard to grasp for me that someone who is pro a more christian morale will very likely vote for the same party as an atheist with a distaste of strong government.
But then, I guess it is rather hard to grasp for many people in the states how a democratic society can accept a monarch as head of state.
> On average, the German/Dutch/Belgian citizen is better educated than the average citizen of the US. As well as different traditions, this is the reason we can handle more political choise.
Maybe. I think tradition is a part of it, but seeing the relatively low numbers that turn up with eletions in the Netherlands for example, I am not so sure if peopel can really handle the choice better.
Question is, what is better, someoen voting on a side while they just don't know but its what their environment does as well, or people not voting because they dont know..
> I hope US citizens won't be offended and seperate the "insult" from the information.
I am somewhat amazed and happily surprised by the lack of trolling/flaming in this thread so far:)
Slashdot Mirror
The fact that the USA has a few hundred non citizens locked up with no access to the legal system is a much bigger issue then the USA wanting more solid id info on visitors. The first is a violation of human rights, the 2nd is an understandable tho futile attempt at keeping the wrong people out.
> Plus, there's the ever-wonderful option to actually view the document code, and manually correct the hidden formatting bugs that inflict themselves on my Word and OpenOffice.org use from time to time.
Well.. you have a WP background.. given that you are not using some heavily modified OO.o version, I suggest pressing ctrl+f10 in the document editor.. it may look familiar to you (and the keyboard shortcut should be familiar as well.. its in the view menu btw)
> The Mongol and Roman empires would disagree with you.
They might.. if they'd still be around..
> Please try to keep posts on topic.
New users are cute at times.
Welcome to slashdot.
> yet to be totally whored out to commerce and regulation. Please keep it on the dl.
Hmm. regulations.. yeah.. guess its still mostly free from those.. but uh.. in quite a few groups the signal/noise ratio is even higher then with e-mail..
April fools... stay away from anythign that claims to be or somehow resembles news.
As many before me have pointed out, go check a dictionary on that. You cannot be stealing when you do not deprive someone of something.
In casual English, this action is called copying, not stealing.
If you want to poitn at the fact that it is illegal, then illegal copyign is entirely clear and proper English.
Why I object so strongly to using the word stealing?
First of all, it is simply not proper English to call ti stealing, that is not a matter of legal definitions.
Second, the word stealing is used on purpose to call on emotion instead of reason. Understandable that RIAA and friends try that, but don't make the mistake to believe that that makes the term correct in any way.
Yeah, and surprise surprise, companies try to sue the publishers of such reports as well.. not that they win often but you can always try.
> Why would they go out and buy something they can get for free?
That has been a good question for a few decades now. The first reason would be because of wanting more of the good stuff and realizing the only way that is goign to happen is by providing an insentive for making more?
I don't think there is a definite answer to the question, but there is the easy to observe fact that despite it being hard to explain, people do buy stuff that they can get for free.
Proof? games have been copied for decades, yet they get sold.
Shareware software, why would it exist at all, and actually work?
The recordign industry would do good to look at those things and try to fidn an answer as to why people buy such things. It might prove to be a lot more effective for saveguardign their business then trying to fight it like they do right now.
> This is totally off topic,
;P
I don't think arguing for use of proper words is that much off topic here
> but in what twisted reality is it considered more acceptable to give these murderers some kind of credit by calling them "suicide bomber" instead of "homicide bomber"? I say call things what they are. The people are murderers, so call them that.
Calling them homicide or suicide bombers doesn't matter for that, in both case they blow up stuff and very likely kill people.
Why do you insist on using a word that is specifically meant to play on the emotions of the listener? You were asking to call things what they are, so try to be a bit objective then in how you describe them and instead of forcing your personal opinion on peopel, present facts and let them make up their mind.
You are entitled to your opnion and expressing it, just don't try to present it as fact because it is not fact.
> The people who "file share" are thieves, so call them that.
Same problem all over.
1. distributing copyrighted works is not stealing. If you think differently, turn up the exact law text that makes this into stealing, but till you do, it is NOT stealing. copyright law calls it infringement, and that is what it is.
So... maybe stuick to your own advise and call things what they are instead of trying to use words specifically meant to call on the emotions of the listener that happen to be desirable to you.
What you are doing here is a well known propaganda technique btw, it works for a little while..
In fact, it shows the idiocy of how godwins law is used. Calling someone nazi is entirely different from refering to a historical fact. Godwins law should definitely not apply in the later case unless you argue for suppressing information about, and references to a rather nasty but very important little bit of our history.
> If you kill all the petty thugs problems disappear, sure a little good goes out with the garbage, but really very little.
Yeah... humanity only found out a zillion times over the last milenia that that attitude doesn't solve anything.. why not try it again....
Live with it, that view is simplistic and causes way more problems then it ever solves. All that made western civilisation had to find that oen out, they all did, they all got rid of the attitude. Ah well, go back to your stoneage mentality and be happy with it. Just please also go back to stoneage technology while you are at it so we don't have to get bothered with your idiocy.
The gaping hole?
Wether you agree or not, there is a whole bunch of artists who deal with record companies that are part of the RIAA.
While I agree that those artists have better means of distribution available now, the consumer can still not force them to use those, and implying that refusal to use other means of distribution somehow legitimizes copying without proper license is imho not right.
Compensating for the music industry 'stealing' your money by means of levies and taxes is another thing.
Ok, I can follow that. One thing tho, most people really have no need for learnign HTML and XML, they are simply not gonna use it other then by a tool that generates and displays it for them. For those who do need or want such things the story changes, but really.. do you think joe sixpack wants or needs to know xml????
Having said that, I wish you the best with your ideas for LaTeX and LyX, something better is always desirable, and wanting a situation where people simply do not ever need to write/edit a markup languae doesn't mean there is nothing to gain from havign the markup language for those who do want/need it still.
Uh, it seems to me we do not agree at all except for that something like LaTeX will be a good solution for some specific cases. You suggest that it would be the best solution for most, and I suggest it would be a horrible solution for most.
It also seems to me that you are actually responding to MS Office specifically, I am talking about integrated office suites like OO.o, MS Office, KOffice and whatever else you may find.
I was talking about the features that programs like MS Office and OO.o offer and how those features work for the end-user, NOT about Word specifically.
Now stop ignoring I was NOT, I repeat: NOT talking about Microsoft Office specifically but about integrated Office packages in general, being it MS Office, KOffice, OO.o, or whatever other packages you can think of that aim at the same market segment, and I have been trying to point out to you endlessly that that market segment has different needs then LyX and LaTeX and that there are OTHER market segments where things like LyX and LaTeX are more appropriate.
Making better tools is always a good idea, and when making them for yourself, theres not much need to look beyond your own needs. When discussing the requirements for an Office package in general, we talk about a lot more then your personal requirements.
So again, stop sticking this to MS Office/Word, and try for once to think Office suites in general versus specialized programs in general (regardless of which specific program) That OO.o supports pdf while MS Office doesn't is a good argument for using OO.o instead, just one of the many good arguiments, but for the discussion about general purpose tool vs specialist tool, this is simply not relevant at all, it is relevant when talking about compatibility.
Last but not least, while I know that it is technically very possible to solve almost every conceivable situation that has to do with producing paper documents from text on a computer with programs like LaTeX, that is completely and utterly irrelevant to the average home and small business user because it requires them to get technical skills that are simply not in their interest in any other way and are completely and utterly outside their way of thinking and every other day to day need they have. Realize it is very easy to learn yet another markup language, it is pretty difficult to learn the first one when you do not even have a vague idea of how a computer might work internally. The fact that they do not have to learn such things for using programs like OO.o is the single most important reason why such end-users will prefer it over LaTeX (even with LyX) Without having to know much, they still feel they are in control. This is completely about psychology, and has nothing whatsoever to do with technology.
When a user learns how to make small changes to the layout of a word document, they learned at the same time how to do similar things in a painting program, a webpage publishing tool, and a zilion other programs that they use for fun or work. FOr that single reason it pays off for them to invest time into learning to do such a thing, it also helps with lots and lots of other things. As mentioned before, learning TeX gets you exactly ONE thing, you can read/write TeX. It is a completely useless skill as soon as you do anything else, hence the investment in time is higher, and has a lower return.
I'd say they come mainly from Theo wanting them due to all the fan mail he receives ;P
> "stealing" or not depends largely on the emotional motives and allegiances of the individual.
Which makes for bad reasoning and bad discussion. Your statement explains the bias of arguments, but doesn't justify it.
If you want a discussion based on reason and fairness, you MUST CUT IT OUT.
There is no other way to have that discussion decently really.
> Unregulated P2P doens't affect CD sales -- c'mon, how stupid can this debate get? If the network gets faster, and the P2P reliability better, and the increasing ease of CD-burners, and printers, etc.
The few times I bought a CD in the last few years its because I wanted the disc and original printed material, not some very usable but visually crappy recordable and cheap inkjet printer output.
This has to do with some CDs beign colelctables, it is about a bit more then the music thats on it.
When I just want the music, I goto the library, rent the cd, and copy it. Irronically, that is fully legal overhere (the Netherlands)
> A clean install of XP usually takes care of everything.
That solution has worked since the early days of Windows 95 and NT... its kindof sad that they still didn't manage to provide somethign better while also aiming at the non technical user.
Demon has been doing this for years and the first ISP I used in the time before the web existed already did this. Prior art should not be difficult.
Hmm, I might be mistaken but I thought the supreme court ruled that patents on computer programs and business methods should be allowed?
The world will never be the same
Interesting statistic ;)
Being from the Netherlands myself, I'd think my judgement is somewhat biassed, but I completely agree (and heh, the mud throwing contest is too plain to miss anyway)
Well, there are quite a few variations on the multi party system. When looking at the system we have in the Netherlands for example, the government is actually appointed by the head of state based on advise from the larger parties. It is not unusual for the prime minister to come from the biggest party, but it is definitely not always true.
Consensus is desirable but not required.
A situation where one party has an absolute majority in both houses of parliament... possible in theory but hasn't happened here in a long time (I'm not sure if it happened at all) and the traditions here make it very unlikely. Also, as I already mentioned, representativee don't have to follow party lines and it happens often that they don't.
That system is not perfect of course, and if it is better or not is besides the point.
There is a lot to say for the stricter seperation like in the Usa, but a better representation of the whole variety of political ideas is desirable.
Discussion about a seperately elected prime minister comes up every few years here.
It is very hard to grasp for me that someone who is pro a more christian morale will very likely vote for the same party as an atheist with a distaste of strong government.
But then, I guess it is rather hard to grasp for many people in the states how a democratic society can accept a monarch as head of state.
> On average, the German/Dutch/Belgian citizen is better educated than the average citizen of the US. As well as different traditions, this is the reason we can handle more political choise.
:)
Maybe. I think tradition is a part of it, but seeing the relatively low numbers that turn up with eletions in the Netherlands for example, I am not so sure if peopel can really handle the choice better.
Question is, what is better, someoen voting on a side while they just don't know but its what their environment does as well, or people not voting because they dont know..
> I hope US citizens won't be offended and seperate the "insult" from the information.
I am somewhat amazed and happily surprised by the lack of trolling/flaming in this thread so far