Anyway Guido has blogged about the typing issue and basically he seems against it. He apparently feels that it will become so widely used that it will change python. Now that PHP people have implemented a similar thing perhaps Guido will change his mind.
Yes I much prefer fantastic and awsome product names like "word" or "money". I mean how can you beat "XP" or "2000". Those are real product names by golly.
I mean how can you not respect a product named after a year or a product whose entire name consists of two letters!.
Just don't be around when XP flips out and kills all those stupid open source names by cutting their heads off for no reason!
I think parrot will be a compelling alternative to mono once it's done. It will support python and perl out of the box so that's a big plus right there. It also looks like it will probably be faster then mono but mono is not standing still and who knows what will happen by the time parrot is out.
Parrot is targeted at hosting popular languages like perl, python, ruby etc. Rasmus has even said he might PHP to it. Mono OTOH is designed to host C# which is not that popular amongst the open source crowd (for understandable reasons). For that reason alone I think it will end up being the de-facto open source VM.
Python is a great language (and so is ruby while I am at it) but it seems to me if you are coding open source applications you might be better off with a stictly typed language based on contracts like smart eiffel. It seems like the safest way to ensure the new programmers can jump in to a project with some certainty of confidence that any boneheaded mistakes they might make will be caught by the compiler.
Java is strictly typed too but it's not really free and there are restrictions on the distribution of the runtime. Eiffel also compiles to the JVM if you really want to go that way.
When every single member of the republican party without exception identifies themselves as a conservative then there is no difference.
Maybe the words meant something at some other time but today there is no difference between a conservative and a republican. The words are interchangeable.
I find this silly. Every republican I know calls himself a conservative. There is no difference between a conservative and a republican. They are two different words to describe the same person.
I am glad the conservatives are running away from the republican lable though, it shows that they are ashamed to find out that there is no real difference between a conservative politician and a liberal one.
Clinton lied about which hole he stuck his cock into in Monica's body. He admitted to sticking his cock into her mouth but not her vagina.
I will leave it the republicans to explain why they were so facinated about Clinton's cock and it's whereabouts. It seems like a disgusting thing to ask somebody but then again there is no predicting the perversions of other people.
The house, senate and the white house are dominated by conservatives. If you polled the republicans in govt 100% of them would label themselves are conservatives. We have a conservative dominated government and this is an excellent example of how conservatived govern.
I guess I am missing the point. I fire up python and ruby all the time to do shell tasks and I find myself incredibly productive. Are you saying that writing a new regexp is cumbersome?
"Actually, based on some of your other statements in this thread, I think I just hit a nerve. Seems like YOU are the zealot here.."
Oh I thought there was nothing wrong with being a zealot. Are you now trying to give me a complement?
"See? THIS is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. The little digs that non-experts are losers and not worth the oxygen they consume. The attitude of everyone who uses Linux should be an expert, no excuses."
Well thanks for taking that quote out of context. I appreciate your zealotry there, I really do.
The question remains. Do you want to be an expert or do you want to be LUSER. Yes I said LUSER, the guy who thinks the CD player is a cup holder, the guy who can't tell the difference between a folder and a file, they guy who can't find the file he just saved.
Which one do you want to be? If you want to be a LUSER stick to the GUI. If you want to be bood learn the command line. That's not zealotry it's striving to master your tools.
"Here's a clue for you. 99.9% of people could not give a flying fuck how their computer works."
Learning the command line is not learning how your computer works. It's learning to use your tools effectively.
"They don't WANT to know how it works."
Learning the command line is not about lealrning how your computer works.
"They don't want to do kernel level hacking, "
Learning the command line is not about kernel hacking.
" they want their bloody email, or Yahoo news, or photos of their grandkids"
You can get all these from the command line.
"They don't want to fuck around in a config file for an hour while looking at the man pages"
Learning the command line is not about config files. But yes you will actually have READ and LEARN the tools. Nobody is going to come to your house and SPEAK the instructions to you. You do know how to read right? I mean you don't the find actual reading of instructions offensive do you?
"They don't have the experience to do that, and they don't want to invest the time to do it."
And so they will remain forever LUSERS. Poeple who are using a powerful tool without ever knowing how. Kind of picking up a popwerful gun and randomly manipulating it hoping it will do something useful.
"Do you change your own oil? I do."
Bad analogy. You don't need to change your oil in order to USE your car. You need it to maintain it.
"Can you do your own tune ups? I can."
Bad Analogy. I don't need to do my own tuneup in order to USE my car.
"Can you swap out a transmission in an afternoon with another one from a junker? I can and have. Can you rebuild your car's engine from a teardown? I have."
Bad analogy, bad analogy.
"Do I have the attitude that everyone who drives a car should be able to do all of these things or they don't belong behind a wheel?"
Wow neither do I. I merely think people should learn to USE their tools. In the case of a car this means learning to DRIVE not to maintain your car.
After reading your post I am now not only convinced you are an insane zealot but you are also extrememly stupid. Your insane and inappropriate analogies are an excellent example. I especially loved how you think that learning the command line means you will have to start hacking your kernel that one was a doozy!.
It will probably fail because MS has been telling all their sysadmins that command lines are worthless and that the only people who use command lines are communist dirty hippies. After decades of telling their users that they don't need a command line, that the GUI is better then the command line, that command lines are dangerous I don't see how they will change all those minds. What are they going to say? "Sorry we have been lying to you for a decade"?
"And, of course, as you know, quite a few other corporations (whose goal it is to make money) are involved in open source."
That's because the software market is pretty much closed now. THere are handful of companies that make money, one huge gorilla and thousands of mom and pop operations barely eking out a living. In order make headway you need to get rid of MS. As long as MS in in this marketplace nobody will be able make any real money. So companies get invovled with open source in order to do to MS what MS has done to them. Namely to cut off their oxygen supply. It's kind of working too. MS has been forced to drastically cut their prices across the board and will soon star giving away their products. They have cut R&D and are manipulating theit stock heavily to make their numbers. They still have billions of dollars and their monopoly cash cows but the armor is starting to show weakness.
" But I have not seen any kind of real, detailed philosophic manifesto of what open source activitist think that would entail."
That's because open source is more like hive intelligence. There is no leader, only a mass of people who roughly believe in the same set of basic principles. I'll sum those up for you real quick although much more can be said about them.
1) Generosity is good. 2) People of the world can benefit from free software. 3) Software generation is fun and other people should not be able to stop you from doing it. 4) Software projects should be run based on meritocracy and not some arbitrary beuracracy or marketing demand. 5) It's possible for people to collaborate despite the differences in their age, nationality, religion and political affiliation.
"Of course, buying the most expensive software I can sounds pretty ridiculous. I want to make money. Not throw it into the marketplace indiscriminantly."
You are almost there grasshopper. Meditate on your sentence for a week and you will get it.
IBM did not purchase SUSE and Ximian. Novell did. Novell did that because people were not interested in their own operating system anymore. They thought it might be a good idea to take linux, rip out the good parts of their OS and rewrite it to run on linux. We'll see if it works but it was better then doing nothing and watching the company slowly become irrelevent.
As for you I'll repeat myself. Every time you install something on your machine for free you are going against your ideals and you are encouraging open source development. If you want developers to get paid you should always buy software. If you want developers to get paid well you should always buy the most expensive software you can.
No you were saying that macosx and windows were popular because people wanted to use spreadsheets and such. It clearly sounded like you thought it was not possible to use spreadsheets in linux.
It sounds like you and open source not ever going to get along. Why would you install any linux distribution or for that matter any open source software on your windows PC?
I think you should always buy your software, that way you set a precedent and you live by your ideals. Don't ever install anything free on your system and you will be helping the paid for software ecosystem.
Zealotry? You call the guy a zealot because he says not all servers have a gui? Maybe you are the zealot have you thought of that? Anybody who calls somebody a zealot because of how they think OTHER people will interpret something he said is worse then a zealot. You are simply insane.
"For some things yes, and certainly an expert user can do amazing things with it, but for the average user there should never be a need to drop into the command line."
The question is what kind of a person are you? Are the kind of a person who wants to be just another average luser^H^H^H^H^H person or do you want to be an expert? If you want to be an expert learn the command line.
Because the command line more powerful then the gui. There are things you can do in a command line that you can't do in any gui especially with piping and redirection. Furthermore by learning the command line you can script these actions and run them later very easily.
Why? Because the command line is more productive and more efficient. Sure it's harder to learn but once you learn it it's easier to use. That's why.
"Between killing people in other countries (e.g. Kuwait)"
Well that was an occupation attempt just like the we are running today.
"leadership of Iraq gassing thei own people"
First of all I am touched by your much belated love of the kurds. I certainly don't recall much if any talk about this while it was going on. I am truly touched at your newfound compassion of long dead brown people. Having said that Saddam was trying to put down an insurgency just like we are. he just used the chemical weapons we gave him unlike us who use bombs with phosphorus in them so it can melt the skin off of people who are nearby.
"pushing kids out of helicopters"
Was this widespread? I certainly haven't heard about it before.
"raping then killing women, and many other atrocities?"
Well that was not terrorism that was interrogation and detainment just like we are doing now. Sexual abuse is perfectly OK when you have detained insurgents, take a look at how the US prisoners are sexually abused. The army reports that some were raped with lightsticks and broomsticks, others were handcuffed naked for days so that they could urinate and defacate on themselves. Some were then smeared with their own shit and suspended from the ceiling.
"many other atrocities? I'd say: yes."
Again beating and killing insurgents is OK if they are members of a terrorist organization. The US army has reported that more then 30 insurgent prisoners have been killed in US custody. Most of those dies from brutal beatings some with multiple broken bones all over their bodies.
What you are describing is perfectly OK. We do it, saddam did it. What's the big deal?
Lots of people are making jokes but to me it's kind of profound. People speak of music as being universal and stories like this drive it home for me. Ok she is probably not listening to White Stripe but she is most certainly listening to Bach and maybe even some modern music from her youth. I even imagine she might listen to steely dan or joni mitchell.
Anyway the point is that she might very well be listening the same music as you are and that says something about the power of music to reach people of all ages, cultures, or strata in the society.
Slashdot Mirror
Wow, you don't ask for much do you?
Anyway Guido has blogged about the typing issue and basically he seems against it. He apparently feels that it will become so widely used that it will change python. Now that PHP people have implemented a similar thing perhaps Guido will change his mind.
Yes I much prefer fantastic and awsome product names like "word" or "money". I mean how can you beat "XP" or "2000". Those are real product names by golly.
I mean how can you not respect a product named after a year or a product whose entire name consists of two letters!.
Just don't be around when XP flips out and kills all those stupid open source names by cutting their heads off for no reason!
I think parrot will be a compelling alternative to mono once it's done. It will support python and perl out of the box so that's a big plus right there. It also looks like it will probably be faster then mono but mono is not standing still and who knows what will happen by the time parrot is out.
Parrot is targeted at hosting popular languages like perl, python, ruby etc. Rasmus has even said he might PHP to it. Mono OTOH is designed to host C# which is not that popular amongst the open source crowd (for understandable reasons). For that reason alone I think it will end up being the de-facto open source VM.
Python is a great language (and so is ruby while I am at it) but it seems to me if you are coding open source applications you might be better off with a stictly typed language based on contracts like smart eiffel. It seems like the safest way to ensure the new programmers can jump in to a project with some certainty of confidence that any boneheaded mistakes they might make will be caught by the compiler.
Java is strictly typed too but it's not really free and there are restrictions on the distribution of the runtime. Eiffel also compiles to the JVM if you really want to go that way.
When every single member of the republican party without exception identifies themselves as a conservative then there is no difference.
Maybe the words meant something at some other time but today there is no difference between a conservative and a republican. The words are interchangeable.
I find this silly. Every republican I know calls himself a conservative. There is no difference between a conservative and a republican. They are two different words to describe the same person.
I am glad the conservatives are running away from the republican lable though, it shows that they are ashamed to find out that there is no real difference between a conservative politician and a liberal one.
Clinton lied about which hole he stuck his cock into in Monica's body. He admitted to sticking his cock into her mouth but not her vagina.
I will leave it the republicans to explain why they were so facinated about Clinton's cock and it's whereabouts. It seems like a disgusting thing to ask somebody but then again there is no predicting the perversions of other people.
The house, senate and the white house are dominated by conservatives. If you polled the republicans in govt 100% of them would label themselves are conservatives. We have a conservative dominated government and this is an excellent example of how conservatived govern.
Ha Ha. I picked apart your insane stupid zealotry and all you can say in return is that I can't spell.
Makes me feel good another zealot has been put in his place.
Thank you very much for the "if you learn the command line you will be forced to hack your kernel" bit though, I am going to bookmark that.
"This is exactly the mindset that I feel has been holding back linux usability work to date."
what exactly do you mean by "holding back"? I keep up on these things and every year desktop linux keeps growing like a wildfire.
I guess I am missing the point. I fire up python and ruby all the time to do shell tasks and I find myself incredibly productive. Are you saying that writing a new regexp is cumbersome?
"Actually, based on some of your other statements in this thread, I think I just hit a nerve. Seems like YOU are the zealot here.."
Oh I thought there was nothing wrong with being a zealot. Are you now trying to give me a complement?
"See? THIS is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. The little digs that non-experts are losers and not worth the oxygen they consume. The attitude of everyone who uses Linux should be an expert, no excuses."
Well thanks for taking that quote out of context. I appreciate your zealotry there, I really do.
The question remains. Do you want to be an expert or do you want to be LUSER. Yes I said LUSER, the guy who thinks the CD player is a cup holder, the guy who can't tell the difference between a folder and a file, they guy who can't find the file he just saved.
Which one do you want to be? If you want to be a LUSER stick to the GUI. If you want to be bood learn the command line. That's not zealotry it's striving to master your tools.
"Here's a clue for you. 99.9% of people could not give a flying fuck how their computer works."
Learning the command line is not learning how your computer works. It's learning to use your tools effectively.
"They don't WANT to know how it works."
Learning the command line is not about lealrning how your computer works.
"They don't want to do kernel level hacking, "
Learning the command line is not about kernel hacking.
" they want their bloody email, or Yahoo news, or photos of their grandkids"
You can get all these from the command line.
"They don't want to fuck around in a config file for an hour while looking at the man pages"
Learning the command line is not about config files. But yes you will actually have READ and LEARN the tools. Nobody is going to come to your house and SPEAK the instructions to you. You do know how to read right? I mean you don't the find actual reading of instructions offensive do you?
"They don't have the experience to do that, and they don't want to invest the time to do it."
And so they will remain forever LUSERS. Poeple who are using a powerful tool without ever knowing how. Kind of picking up a popwerful gun and randomly manipulating it hoping it will do something useful.
"Do you change your own oil? I do."
Bad analogy. You don't need to change your oil in order to USE your car. You need it to maintain it.
"Can you do your own tune ups? I can."
Bad Analogy. I don't need to do my own tuneup in order to USE my car.
"Can you swap out a transmission in an afternoon with another one from a junker? I can and have.
Can you rebuild your car's engine from a teardown? I have."
Bad analogy, bad analogy.
"Do I have the attitude that everyone who drives a car should be able to do all of these things or they don't belong behind a wheel?"
Wow neither do I. I merely think people should learn to USE their tools. In the case of a car this means learning to DRIVE not to maintain your car.
After reading your post I am now not only convinced you are an insane zealot but you are also extrememly stupid. Your insane and inappropriate analogies are an excellent example. I especially loved how you think that learning the command line means you will have to start hacking your kernel that one was a doozy!.
How is this different then firing up ruby or python and doing the same thing?
It will probably fail because MS has been telling all their sysadmins that command lines are worthless and that the only people who use command lines are communist dirty hippies. After decades of telling their users that they don't need a command line, that the GUI is better then the command line, that command lines are dangerous I don't see how they will change all those minds. What are they going to say? "Sorry we have been lying to you for a decade"?
"And, of course, as you know, quite a few other corporations (whose goal it is to make money) are involved in open source."
That's because the software market is pretty much closed now. THere are handful of companies that make money, one huge gorilla and thousands of mom and pop operations barely eking out a living. In order make headway you need to get rid of MS. As long as MS in in this marketplace nobody will be able make any real money. So companies get invovled with open source in order to do to MS what MS has done to them. Namely to cut off their oxygen supply. It's kind of working too. MS has been forced to drastically cut their prices across the board and will soon star giving away their products. They have cut R&D and are manipulating theit stock heavily to make their numbers. They still have billions of dollars and their monopoly cash cows but the armor is starting to show weakness.
" But I have not seen any kind of real, detailed philosophic manifesto of what open source activitist think that would entail."
That's because open source is more like hive intelligence. There is no leader, only a mass of people who roughly believe in the same set of basic principles. I'll sum those up for you real quick although much more can be said about them.
1) Generosity is good.
2) People of the world can benefit from free software.
3) Software generation is fun and other people should not be able to stop you from doing it.
4) Software projects should be run based on meritocracy and not some arbitrary beuracracy or marketing demand.
5) It's possible for people to collaborate despite the differences in their age, nationality, religion and political affiliation.
"Of course, buying the most expensive software I can sounds pretty ridiculous. I want to make money. Not throw it into the marketplace indiscriminantly."
You are almost there grasshopper. Meditate on your sentence for a week and you will get it.
You called him a zealot because of what you think other people will think of his words. That's insane. It's beyond insane.
I'll stand by my statements, you are more of a zealot then he is. But hey there is nothing wrong with being a zealot right?
IBM did not purchase SUSE and Ximian. Novell did. Novell did that because people were not interested in their own operating system anymore. They thought it might be a good idea to take linux, rip out the good parts of their OS and rewrite it to run on linux. We'll see if it works but it was better then doing nothing and watching the company slowly become irrelevent.
As for you I'll repeat myself. Every time you install something on your machine for free you are going against your ideals and you are encouraging open source development. If you want developers to get paid you should always buy software. If you want developers to get paid well you should always buy the most expensive software you can.
No you were saying that macosx and windows were popular because people wanted to use spreadsheets and such. It clearly sounded like you thought it was not possible to use spreadsheets in linux.
It sounds like you and open source not ever going to get along. Why would you install any linux distribution or for that matter any open source software on your windows PC?
I think you should always buy your software, that way you set a precedent and you live by your ideals. Don't ever install anything free on your system and you will be helping the paid for software ecosystem.
Zealotry? You call the guy a zealot because he says not all servers have a gui? Maybe you are the zealot have you thought of that? Anybody who calls somebody a zealot because of how they think OTHER people will interpret something he said is worse then a zealot. You are simply insane.
"For some things yes, and certainly an expert user can do amazing things with it, but for the average user there should never be a need to drop into the command line."
The question is what kind of a person are you? Are the kind of a person who wants to be just another average luser^H^H^H^H^H person or do you want to be an expert? If you want to be an expert learn the command line.
Because the command line more powerful then the gui. There are things you can do in a command line that you can't do in any gui especially with piping and redirection. Furthermore by learning the command line you can script these actions and run them later very easily.
Why? Because the command line is more productive and more efficient. Sure it's harder to learn but once you learn it it's easier to use. That's why.
Last I checked all those things were also possible on Linux. Are you under some impression that linux has no GUI?
"Between killing people in other countries (e.g. Kuwait)"
Well that was an occupation attempt just like the we are running today.
"leadership of Iraq gassing thei own people"
First of all I am touched by your much belated love of the kurds. I certainly don't recall much if any talk about this while it was going on. I am truly touched at your newfound compassion of long dead brown people. Having said that Saddam was trying to put down an insurgency just like we are. he just used the chemical weapons we gave him unlike us who use bombs with phosphorus in them so it can melt the skin off of people who are nearby.
"pushing kids out of helicopters"
Was this widespread? I certainly haven't heard about it before.
"raping then killing women, and many other atrocities?"
Well that was not terrorism that was interrogation and detainment just like we are doing now. Sexual abuse is perfectly OK when you have detained insurgents, take a look at how the US prisoners are sexually abused. The army reports that some were raped with lightsticks and broomsticks, others were handcuffed naked for days so that they could urinate and defacate on themselves. Some were then smeared with their own shit and suspended from the ceiling.
"many other atrocities? I'd say: yes."
Again beating and killing insurgents is OK if they are members of a terrorist organization. The US army has reported that more then 30 insurgent prisoners have been killed in US custody. Most of those dies from brutal beatings some with multiple broken bones all over their bodies.
What you are describing is perfectly OK. We do it, saddam did it. What's the big deal?
Lots of people are making jokes but to me it's kind of profound. People speak of music as being universal and stories like this drive it home for me. Ok she is probably not listening to White Stripe but she is most certainly listening to Bach and maybe even some modern music from her youth. I even imagine she might listen to steely dan or joni mitchell.
Anyway the point is that she might very well be listening the same music as you are and that says something about the power of music to reach people of all ages, cultures, or strata in the society.