"That doesn't go for scripting languages (as far as I'm concerned), which I don't generally feel are appropriate for large projects."
The topic was about scripting languages.
"There is nothing magic about perl that makes this work."
I used to think that too but I have changed my mind. If there was nothing magical about perl then all languages would have a centralized library of objects and a easy way to download and install them (including dependency resolving). I agree with you that all languages should have this none of them do and there must be a reason for it.
For example. Python and ruby are both MoreObjectOriented then perl. They both have large and active communities. They both have extremely smart and dedicated communities and yet neither one has the equavalent of CPAN. Ruby has an archive at least and python has a half assed repository but all of it poorly documented and can't be installed without manual downloading.
There must be something magical about perl. Don't know what it is but if it was otherwise all other languages would have done it by now. Think about it. This kind of thing is Ideal for java right? It has objects, beans, EJBs etc. Where is big searchable repository of java beans I can download and deploy in under a minute?
PHP does indeed have PEAR. It too is object oriented, searchable and well documented. The only thing it lacks is the ability of php itself to install modules and any dependent modules. PHP folks need the equavalent of -MCPAN
Anybody have experience with both ocaml and dylan and willing to write a quickie comparison. I have been reading about them and right now I'm at a tossup as to which one I am going to learn next.
You know what language does not matter. I can write a preforking server in perl in one line of code. How? Because somebody else has already done it for me, documented the code, posted in a central library that's available for everybody and is searchable. Not only that I can type "perl -MCPAN -e shell" and "install Whatever::Whatnot" and have it in under 5 minutes. Try that with python, ruby, ocaml or java.
Maybe python is easier to read, maybe ruby is more object oriented, maybe ocaml is faster, maybe lisp is better then all of them, but I don't care. When I want to get something done I can always get it done faster in perl and it's all because of CPAN.
Until another language offers what CPAN does I don't care that much about it.
Yes to a large extent. Of course the braindead i386 architecture does not help either.
"You can write buggy, unsecured code with asm!"
DUH. That's one of the reasons why people don't program in assembler anymore. Too many chances to fuck up.
"t's got very little to do with the language involved (the compiler and libraries used may have an effect) since it all gets put into machine code anyway."
They say you should never observe how sausage or laws are made. I wish to amend that to say you should never observe how laws are litigated.
What a shameful display of the american legal system when after a year and half all the court can say is "I'll grant you another extension and the trial won't be till september of 2005".
A five year old would have settled this a year ago.
This study akin to saying that we should not have the police because crime still exists or that we should not have fire departments because they don't prevent fires.
People who report security holes are not the same people who code the program. They are like the firemen while the coders are like the home owners. It's up to the coders to make their house fire resistent.
Having said that I am glad people are finally moving away from C, C++ and other unmanaged code. That alone should cut down the secutiry holes by 70%.
I hope the linux programmers take the same kind of Initiative that MS has with.NET and C#. Sticking with C or C++ just does not make any sense when there are viable alternatives on the market. If performance is important then at least use alternatives like cyclone.
It was all in the army report. Learn to read will you.
BTW BBC has a picture of the guy smeared with shit and crucified and one of the guys beaten to death. The army has admitted that several prisoners have died as a result of interrogation in prisons all over the world.
As for the sodomy and rape pictures the US army has not released them yet. I doubt they will ever release them because the US army is all about PR these days.
"we've done stuff that doesn't even COMPARE to making prisoners make naked piramids, give me a break."
Many prisoners died after being beaten. Some prisoners were raped. Some were sodomized with broomsticks. Some were smeared with shit and harnessed into a crucified position with ropes and chains. Some were forced to drink the cum from other prisoners and guards.
A hell of lot more went on then piling them into pyramid.
Rush limbaugh called for a nuclear strike against whatever country the bombers were from. If I remember correctly he said to turn the country into a parking lot. He was advocating a genocide of unspeakable proportions.
Once he found out it was republican americans he changed his tune. He didn't even call for bombing a state let alone turning the US into a parking lot.
Reagan is dead and there is a little less evil in the world. Anybody who funded death camps in south america should not be venerated. reagan should have been killed long time ago.
Re:Using the right tool for the job
on
OpenGL in PHP
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· Score: 1
I have a 10 line (roughly) function that can can serialize and cache the output of any other function or an object. It was trivial to write and I use it often. Since I use ADODB for my database access I also have access to it's recordset caching abilities. It's quite nice and I urge you to use it if you any php work at all.
I run apache 1.X so if my php crashes (very, very rare) it simply respawns another child process. I have never had the parent process lock up or crash. Apache is one hell of a web server.
Re:Using the right tool for the job
on
OpenGL in PHP
·
· Score: 1
I will have to test your perl example. As fas I know there is no block level scoping in perl. I can assure that there is not one in python. In python you only have global, module and function level scopes.
But we are veering off course. The original topic was about why php is unsuitable for opengl programming and nobody has put forth a sound argument as to why it's that way. It behaves very similar to perl, python, and ruby. I am not saying that all the languages are alike just that they can all do the same kind of things.
As for C, C++ or Java I think those languages are overkill for most applications. I don't program in assembly anymore and I don't program in c/c++ anymore for the same reason. I dislike java with a passion. Python, perl, ruby and php are all OK in my book.
Mmmmm. You think an undercover operation is going to send checks that say US govt on them? If we can track money going to palestenian orphans you'd think we could track money going to spammers dontchathink?
Why can't the govt order the stuff on the spam and bust whoever cashed the check? After throwing a dozen people in jail I bet the spam would stop.
Re:Using the right tool for the job
on
OpenGL in PHP
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· Score: 1
"Ruby gets this in a more generalized form as part of object persistance in a daemonised interpreter."
Ick. I much prefer that php handle these things for me transparently.
"Did I mention PHP's FastCGI support seems buggier than Ruby's?:"
Don't know, I have never felt the need to use fastcgi with php. PHP has lots of neat features to make sure your code can't escape it's hierarchy, you can also selectively not allow certain functions to run.
As for the community I have no complaints about the PHP community.
Re:Using the right tool for the job
on
OpenGL in PHP
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· Score: 1
Your example would work the same way in python, ruby, perl and php. The idea of declaring variables block scope only exists in a few languages, most languages are like php.
"there is no form of data protection for objects, and it's just kind of a pain all around."
Again no different then python.
Re:Using the right tool for the job
on
OpenGL in PHP
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· Score: 1
Once again. The OO aspects of php4 support polymorphism and inheritance. Show me how it's lacking or that much different then python.
The PEAR library is fully object based. It covers pretty much everything you need. If you need something not in PEAR then you can shop around to find some code that suits your style.
Re:Using the right tool for the job
on
OpenGL in PHP
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· Score: 1
Go read the documentation. It's perfectly clear. The guy is an idiot.
Re:Using the right tool for the job
on
OpenGL in PHP
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· Score: 1
There is nothing wrong with ruby except the severe lack of documentation, automatic database pooling, tight integration with apache, lack of unicode functions and a small community.
Re:Using the right tool for the job
on
OpenGL in PHP
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· Score: 1
Shut up you ignorant bastard.
1) phpxpath 2) the DOM functions work just fine. They are marked experimental because the PHP folks are rightly conservative. 3) The Sax stuff is baked.
Just because you can't google or figure it out doesn't mean nobody else can.
Re:Using the right tool for the job
on
OpenGL in PHP
·
· Score: 1
"PHP's not OO any more so than Perl is; it has OO features, but they're rarely used, even inside the standard library. That OO is only just becoming a feaure you can use a lot of without the language creaking under all those =&'s kinda demonstrates this - OO is a PHP addon, and for the most part feels like it. Exceptions are not yet in the PHP everyone actually uses yet, either; it's hardly the right tool if you have to use prerelease software to make it work."
What an odd bit of rambling. SO what if OO is an add on. It exists and it supports polymorphism and inheritance. It also supports mixins and is highly dynamic. Explain to me why that's not good enough, better yet explain to me why it's any different then python?
"The large library you mention is pretty poor, to be honest;"
Bullshit. I have used dozens of fantastic libraries. The community has been extremely helpful and the online documentation is awsome.
Apparently you have some sort of a chip up your ass about PHP but none of what you have said here as any merit. You saying "php suxors, php developers are lam3rs" is not going to change anybodies minds.
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"That doesn't go for scripting languages (as far as I'm concerned), which I don't generally feel are appropriate for large projects."
The topic was about scripting languages.
"There is nothing magic about perl that makes this work."
I used to think that too but I have changed my mind. If there was nothing magical about perl then all languages would have a centralized library of objects and a easy way to download and install them (including dependency resolving). I agree with you that all languages should have this none of them do and there must be a reason for it.
For example. Python and ruby are both MoreObjectOriented then perl. They both have large and active communities. They both have extremely smart and dedicated communities and yet neither one has the equavalent of CPAN. Ruby has an archive at least and python has a half assed repository but all of it poorly documented and can't be installed without manual downloading.
There must be something magical about perl. Don't know what it is but if it was otherwise all other languages would have done it by now. Think about it. This kind of thing is Ideal for java right? It has objects, beans, EJBs etc. Where is big searchable repository of java beans I can download and deploy in under a minute?
PHP does indeed have PEAR. It too is object oriented, searchable and well documented. The only thing it lacks is the ability of php itself to install modules and any dependent modules. PHP folks need the equavalent of -MCPAN
Anybody have experience with both ocaml and dylan and willing to write a quickie comparison. I have been reading about them and right now I'm at a tossup as to which one I am going to learn next.
You know what language does not matter. I can write a preforking server in perl in one line of code. How? Because somebody else has already done it for me, documented the code, posted in a central library that's available for everybody and is searchable. Not only that I can type "perl -MCPAN -e shell" and "install Whatever::Whatnot" and have it in under 5 minutes. Try that with python, ruby, ocaml or java.
Maybe python is easier to read, maybe ruby is more object oriented, maybe ocaml is faster, maybe lisp is better then all of them, but I don't care. When I want to get something done I can always get it done faster in perl and it's all because of CPAN.
Until another language offers what CPAN does I don't care that much about it.
"You really think the problem is C and C++??"
Yes to a large extent. Of course the braindead i386 architecture does not help either.
"You can write buggy, unsecured code with asm!"
DUH. That's one of the reasons why people don't program in assembler anymore. Too many chances to fuck up.
"t's got very little to do with the language involved (the compiler and libraries used may have an effect) since it all gets put into machine code anyway."
You are not a programmer are you?
At least we don't kill, imprison or torture people we disagree with.
They say you should never observe how sausage or laws are made. I wish to amend that to say you should never observe how laws are litigated.
What a shameful display of the american legal system when after a year and half all the court can say is "I'll grant you another extension and the trial won't be till september of 2005".
A five year old would have settled this a year ago.
This study akin to saying that we should not have the police because crime still exists or that we should not have fire departments because they don't prevent fires.
.NET and C#. Sticking with C or C++ just does not make any sense when there are viable alternatives on the market. If performance is important then at least use alternatives like cyclone.
People who report security holes are not the same people who code the program. They are like the firemen while the coders are like the home owners. It's up to the coders to make their house fire resistent.
Having said that I am glad people are finally moving away from C, C++ and other unmanaged code. That alone should cut down the secutiry holes by 70%.
I hope the linux programmers take the same kind of Initiative that MS has with
It was all in the army report. Learn to read will you.
BTW BBC has a picture of the guy smeared with shit and crucified and one of the guys beaten to death. The army has admitted that several prisoners have died as a result of interrogation in prisons all over the world.
As for the sodomy and rape pictures the US army has not released them yet. I doubt they will ever release them because the US army is all about PR these days.
It was flamebait because a republican moderated it. Republicans don't believe in dissent.
So soldiers are psychotic killers who are not able to discern between citizens of their own country and the enemy. you are proud of this?
Reminds me of a joke we used to tell in the air force.
What do you get when you cross a marine with an ape?
A dumb ape.
"we've done stuff that doesn't even COMPARE to making prisoners make naked piramids, give me a break."
Many prisoners died after being beaten. Some prisoners were raped. Some were sodomized with broomsticks. Some were smeared with shit and harnessed into a crucified position with ropes and chains. Some were forced to drink the cum from other prisoners and guards.
A hell of lot more went on then piling them into pyramid.
Rush limbaugh called for a nuclear strike against whatever country the bombers were from. If I remember correctly he said to turn the country into a parking lot. He was advocating a genocide of unspeakable proportions.
Once he found out it was republican americans he changed his tune. He didn't even call for bombing a state let alone turning the US into a parking lot.
What a fuckwad.
Reagan is dead and there is a little less evil in the world. Anybody who funded death camps in south america should not be venerated. reagan should have been killed long time ago.
I have a 10 line (roughly) function that can can serialize and cache the output of any other function or an object. It was trivial to write and I use it often. Since I use ADODB for my database access I also have access to it's recordset caching abilities. It's quite nice and I urge you to use it if you any php work at all.
I run apache 1.X so if my php crashes (very, very rare) it simply respawns another child process. I have never had the parent process lock up or crash. Apache is one hell of a web server.
I will have to test your perl example. As fas I know there is no block level scoping in perl. I can assure that there is not one in python. In python you only have global, module and function level scopes.
But we are veering off course. The original topic was about why php is unsuitable for opengl programming and nobody has put forth a sound argument as to why it's that way. It behaves very similar to perl, python, and ruby. I am not saying that all the languages are alike just that they can all do the same kind of things.
As for C, C++ or Java I think those languages are overkill for most applications. I don't program in assembly anymore and I don't program in c/c++ anymore for the same reason. I dislike java with a passion. Python, perl, ruby and php are all OK in my book.
Mmmmm. You think an undercover operation is going to send checks that say US govt on them? If we can track money going to palestenian orphans you'd think we could track money going to spammers dontchathink?
Why can't the govt order the stuff on the spam and bust whoever cashed the check? After throwing a dozen people in jail I bet the spam would stop.
"Ruby gets this in a more generalized form as part of object persistance in a daemonised interpreter."
:"
Ick. I much prefer that php handle these things for me transparently.
"Did I mention PHP's FastCGI support seems buggier than Ruby's?
Don't know, I have never felt the need to use fastcgi with php. PHP has lots of neat features to make sure your code can't escape it's hierarchy, you can also selectively not allow certain functions to run.
As for the community I have no complaints about the PHP community.
Your example would work the same way in python, ruby, perl and php. The idea of declaring variables block scope only exists in a few languages, most languages are like php.
"there is no form of data protection for objects, and it's just kind of a pain all around."
Again no different then python.
Once again. The OO aspects of php4 support polymorphism and inheritance. Show me how it's lacking or that much different then python.
The PEAR library is fully object based. It covers pretty much everything you need. If you need something not in PEAR then you can shop around to find some code that suits your style.
Go read the documentation. It's perfectly clear. The guy is an idiot.
There is nothing wrong with ruby except the severe lack of documentation, automatic database pooling, tight integration with apache, lack of unicode functions and a small community.
Shut up you ignorant bastard.
1) phpxpath
2) the DOM functions work just fine. They are marked experimental because the PHP folks are rightly conservative.
3) The Sax stuff is baked.
Just because you can't google or figure it out doesn't mean nobody else can.
"PHP's not OO any more so than Perl is; it has OO features, but they're rarely used, even inside the standard library. That OO is only just becoming a feaure you can use a lot of without the language creaking under all those =&'s kinda demonstrates this - OO is a PHP addon, and for the most part feels like it. Exceptions are not yet in the PHP everyone actually uses yet, either; it's hardly the right tool if you have to use prerelease software to make it work."
What an odd bit of rambling. SO what if OO is an add on. It exists and it supports polymorphism and inheritance. It also supports mixins and is highly dynamic. Explain to me why that's not good enough, better yet explain to me why it's any different then python?
"The large library you mention is pretty poor, to be honest;"
Bullshit. I have used dozens of fantastic libraries. The community has been extremely helpful and the online documentation is awsome.
Apparently you have some sort of a chip up your ass about PHP but none of what you have said here as any merit. You saying "php suxors, php developers are lam3rs" is not going to change anybodies minds.