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Saudi Webmaster Acquitted of Terrorism Charges
terrymr writes "Saudi Student Sami Omar Al-Hussayen was found not guilty on charges that he 'rendered techical assistance to terrorists' by acting as the webmaster for an Islamic charity. Said one juror: 'The part that surprised me was when I read the First Amendment instructions. I was surprised to learn that people could say whatever they want... providing it would not cause imminent action.'" You might remember our previous coverage of this story. In addition, the AP (via CNN) has more information as well.
They want him dead, regardless of what a jury says.
C:\>
Obviously the right most taken for granted is also the one people understand the least...
Can we possibly force potentially a hundred million people to go repeat 5th grade american history?
"I hope the message is that the First Amendment is important and meaningful in this country, and actions protected by the First Amendment really shouldn't be subject to prosecution," he said. "I think (the prosecution of) this case represented a pushing of the envelope for what will be permissible in the future. I think this case suggests they won't do that in the future - which I think is good for the First Amendment."
Well, it would be nice if that were the outcome of this case, that people would stop trying to push the First Amendment back. But I suspect the opposite will be the case: They will re-double their efforts to find ways to prosecute anyone they don't like. Prosecuters who lose cases don't usually think, "Hmm...guess I was in the wrong." Instead they think, "Hmm...better work harder to get convictions."
In America, the big thing used to be DWB: Driving While Black, where you could be pulled over just for having the wrong skin color. In today's America, there are a few who seem to have the idea of EWI: Existing While Islamic. Well, sorry, but Islam is not the problem here, it is extremism. Extremists are the dangeous ones. But hey, let's forget about that and find ways to trash the Constitution, shall we? ...sigh...
I think this speaks for itself... from Sami Omar.com:
"Even more tenuous are prosecutors' attempts to establish that Hussayen's websites, which he operated openly under his own name, were conduits to greater evils. If he wasn't guilty, they asked last week, why did some of his pages feature links that led visitors to sites where stomach-turning images of violence against infidels were freely available, including one of a Russian in Chechnya having his throat cut?"
Let's get it straight... linking IS and SHOULD BE protected free speech!
I actually went to school with the guy and he didn't seem so bad. Just goes to show what assumptions will get ya.
FuckTheFuckingFuckers.com - Post your th
begin sarcasm
Well, that proves that he must be guilty.
unless they can provide a clear money trail that the defendant knew was going to a terrorist organization. The supreme court would throw out anything less. Heck, I've even seen people stupid enough to threaten bodily harm to the president through an AC comment here on slashdot, and =even if cmdrtaco moves to a montana militia retreat, he's under no legal penalty for another person's comments on a public talkspace.
Weird looking?
Seriously, I don't know what you are talking about.
He just looks like a guy with a beard to me. Is that so bad?
Islam is the new black?
*ducks*
I believe a better title would be:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/06/10/first.amendmentIs this a case designed to test the waters to determine who has responsibility for web content? Did they go after the ISP as well?
Will they retry on the remaining charges? What will happen after he's deported? The whole situation is a little bit scary.
"Do not drill any holes in your cat - it will not like it."
-- Nick Davies
That in the Governments eyes, he's one that 'got away', regardless of whether he really was supporting terrorism or not.
Now they're going to be back to the drawing boards to draft some new bill that shreds what remains of the constitution so that the next time someone is suspected of terrorism, they're gone. Doesn't matter if they're guilty or not.
I'll die fighting to let him say what he wants. But, don't let him show up at my any of my favorite bars around Ft. Bragg. Anyone who supports "religious edicts justifying suicide bombings" and invites people to "financially support the militant Palestinian organization Hamas" wouldn't last too long there.
Oops, I meant "casual" not causal, and "probable" not probably.
Check out this site about jury nullification. The real questions the jury should be answering are: "does the law make sense", not "is it legal or not". The job of deciding whether it is legal or not has already been decided by the prosecution and the judge before they picked a jury.
--
Get rid of everything Micro and Soft: Buy Viagra and/or Linux
It's unfortunate, but I'm beginning to realize that this is a recurring theme in the human condition. Every generation has a group to hate/fear. Hundreds of years ago it was witches. Our parents' generation feared the communists, and now we have the terrorists.
In each of these cases freedom has always been the first victim. With witches it was the loss of religious freedom. With the communists came the loss of actual freedom for many wrongly imprisoned. Today not only are innocents like Sami Al-Hussayen losing their freedom, but we're all losing a little freedom as we exchange privacy for so-called "protection".
I have known several people with better beards than that - ie- I have know many non-"I am a farking american christian" people. None were terrorists. One liked to fart a lot, but that just does not count.
Great ideas often receive violent opposition from mediocre minds. - Albert Einstein
I sometimes browse around some so called "islamic" webistes to see what they are talking about, some of them are genuinly religious with moderate tone and basically teaching ppl. about Islam or offering services like prayer times and Qura'an lessons and other usefull/intresting stuff.
HOWEVER, recently I've witnessed the influx of HATE sites claiming to be "islamic" sites. The preech hate and praise desruction. I'm all for free speech, but the freedom of a group or indivduals aren't absolute, and it shouldn't infringe or in anyway threaten the freedoms of others. In these sites they are calling for attacks on western intrests everywhere. They cheer for teh killing of westerners and/or Chrstians and calling for more acts like teh ones we saw in Saudi. I think the freedom of speech those ppl. have should be revoked because they very grossly abused.
bare in mind I'm a Muslim, and I'm not flaming Islam or have any hidden agenda.
Won't somebody please think of the Karma!
Seriously. I got a bit curious a while back. I know that Republicans are strong among religious conservatives and major industry, and Democrats among skilled professionals and academics (the sort of people who are most commonly on the Internet). Possibly as a result, there are a fair number of liberal forums out there.
So, just out of curiosity, I decided to track down a couple of conservative forums. I was curious as to some conservative viewpoints on a couple things.
And I couldn't *find* any. Liberal forums are all over the place, but conservative forums are *damned* hard to find. Finally, I ran across freerepublic.com and took a look. Freerepublic was the *only* active conservative forum that I ran across, and it seemed to be quite small, incredibly amateurish, with rampant misspellings and grammatical errors, and boasted an absolute horde of *dumb* users. If people made the kind of logic errors they do on freerepublic on kuro5hin, they'd get immediately called out.
May we never see th
to me, he looks weird, and I'm a Muslim btw :P ...
Won't somebody please think of the Karma!
America *used* to be a shining light for freedom in our world. We used to fight for the rights of oppressed people, fight for freedom of speech, and label anyone who dared try to limit our God given constitutional rights as traitors and deal with them accordingly. Then, in a few days in September 2001, that all changed for some reason.
Now, we label those who want Americans to have unrestricted freedoms as traitors. We lable those who speak their minds and take their liberties seriously "terrorists" and we crucify anyone who doesn't tout whatever party line happens to be in effect at the moment (it really is a moving target).
Cases like Mr. Al-Hussayen, the Iraqi prison abuses, and countless others serve as a sad reminder that this is not the America that many of us grew up in or really want to be a part of. In the Reagen years, they say we felt a sense of national pride. We were proud to be Americans. Now, I think we simply feel a sense of national shame.
Don't get me wrong, I am not blaming President Bush for all of this. I do believe that he is a good man trying to do what he believes is right for his country. But there are others in our government who, for whatever reasons, seem to have set up another of the worlds great evil empires and are weilding that power to go after people like Sami Omar Al-Hussayen.
We wonder why people the world over dispise us as a people. We wonder why people think our government and political system are evil. We wonder why nobody trusts us. I'm sure Mr. Al-Hussayen, many Iraqi citizens, and a few American citizens could give us a lot of reasons why.
It is good news that he was found not guilty. Unfortunately, like another poster here says, this won't end the governments persecution of innocent people. They will simply view him as one that got away, draft legislation to tighten loopholes, take away a few more freedoms, and continue the fight. Man, what a year this 1984 is...
Anthony Papillion
Advanced Data Concepts, Inc.
"Quality Custom Software and IT Services"
According to the CNN article, he faces deportation after his trial, win or lose. His family is already back in Saudi Arabia, and he expects to join them. However, no details as to why he is being deported. He did face several counts of visa fraud, but he was acquitted on those counts! Why is he still being shipped out?
What kind of legal circus has been set up, when you either spend time in jail or get kicked out of the country? Was he really here illegally, or is the government just deporting him because they know he doesn't have the resources to fight TWO legal battles back to back? Neat way to get rid of the problem, from a Dept of Homeland Security asshat point of view.
between free republic and democratic underground sites for a few days. It is the clearest way to see that voting either democrat or republican is just slap wrong. And what is just funny is that neither side there can step back from their partisan jingoism and phony left/right paradigm long enough to look and see it's the pot calling the kettle black, back and forth. Their guys are always saints and the smartest guys in the world and the most honest statesmen, etc, and the other guys are all what's wrong with the universe. It's hysterically funny. If you look close, you can actually see pretty good coverage of all the actual crimes committed by the democrats and republicans, by reading both sites-but both sides deny "their" guys ever do anything wrong,it's all a conspiracy theory or something,etc, and woe is the poster who strays from the herd-poof-blackholed, banned.
Unfortunately, it's NOT funny because you realise both sides in this delusional farce manage to always get their particular slimeball scumbag lying crook in, if not this election, then the next election. And we always seem to have a screwed up crooked government, but they never bingo to the real reason.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Oh yes it does! Noxious chemical toxins released into the air in mass quantities is consider a chemical weapon! The WMD have been found! It is in his pants! Get thee to Git-mo infidel pagan anti-american terroist swine! ~X~
~X~
This "webmaster/terrorist" is one of the
cast of thousands that provide aid and
comfort to world Islamic terrorism. It
is a travesty of justice for him to be
found innocent. GWB & Co. have a much
bigger problem in the ME than just Iraq.
The Western economies have been dancing with
the devil ever since oil was discovered and
developed in Saudi Arabia. Providing the House
of Saud with the economic and military might
to control their patch of the Middle Eastern
sandbox has been a gamble that has powered the
devil's work.
This closed theocratic society worships death.
There is no tolerance in the Wahhabist sect for
Western ideals, let alone other schisms of Islam.
Anyone not a Wahhabist is considered an infidel,
worthy only of either conversion or death. They
have raised an army of martyrs who seek the
rewards of an afterlife filled with pleasures
unattainable and antithetical to this lifetime.
The Wahhabist inspiration is the imperial Islam
of the 12th century, which controlled Europe from
the Atlantic south of the Pyrenees, north to the
gates of Vienna, east to the Great Wall of China,
and made the Mediterranean a Moslem sea.
Their control of Mecca and Medina, the heart of
Islam, has been used, along with their vast oil
wealth, to propagate their religious beliefs
throughout the rest of the world. The mosques and
religious schools that they built abroad as "works
of charity" have been used as the training ground
and recruiting centers for their war against
all other religions. It is Wahhabist clerics
that lead these centers, funded by Saudi Arabian
oil money.
The current wave of terrorism within Saudi
Arabia has been directed primarily against
Westerners, and it's largest impact has been
a spike in oil prices (more funding for their terrorists). Saudi victims of these attacks
cannot be considered "collateral damage" in
the Western sense, but martyrs to the cause. Cynical consideration of the Wahhabist culture
of death and empire in assessing these
terrorist acts could draw one to conclude that
it is little more than "good theater", and propaganda meant for the West.
Our leaders would do well to consider the
possibility that al-Queda is little more
than a not-so-secret Wahhabist army, a
Saudi Arabian OSS with plenty of "plausible
deniability" for the gullible West.
http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/1998/October/477crm.ht m
The website with the actual mailing list (which is named, along with about 10 others in the above PDF) is here.
The thing about websites, forums, and mailing lists, is that you can never get the true feel from a description designed to make it sound horrible. For all we know, the messages that they read could be considered the trolls of the mailing list. Even if they weren't, Internet forums is still a sticky subject. People say a lot of stupid things, discussions can get heated, people can troll, people can exaggerate their beliefs to get a better response, and sometimes there are just nuts who use the Internet to let our their ideas that no one will listen to in real life. The sites could have been designed to support and recruit terrorists, but you can never really know, and there certainly wasn't enough evidence to point fingers at a moderator of the mailing list.
or take a look at this picture afaik he aint no pr0n webmaster :P
Uh, most of the stuff I see in tha freeper article is PURE LIBEL.
I did not know Sami personally but I was aware of his living conditions. By all appearances he DID NOT import 100's of thousands. IIRC he lived in average to low quality student appartments (like most students) and didn't have any evidences of being outstandingly rich. Even if he imported any serious amount of money it would have to be declared with customs.
Of the Mulslim students I knew of he was not one of the scary ones. There were a few who I met and talked to.
At a time when we had dozens and dozens of Saudi and middle-eastern students fleeing the country Sami stayed. What thanks he got. Trumped up charges (helped setup a website and real audio stream) and got the book thrown at him (still 8 counts of visa fraud & related charges that could get him deported).
The DoJ's case was such a joke. Fabricated evidence like the mistranslations (was it Arab Lybian Project or Arab Library Project?? even the CIA couldn't keep the translation consistent!) clearly showed that the government's case was weak from the start.
Damn I wish I had mod points (and also that I had never posted in this discussion with my UID).
by the way, I am a Washington State University alumnus. When I left Sami was part way through his graduate studies. Proof? I know his graduate studies advisor was Dr. D*****h F*****e.
Please note these opinions are my own. I do not represent anyone else who may have known Sami. When he was arrested it his us like a ton of bricks, and I knew the new McCarthyism was upon us.
Christians have death lists of bbortion doctors, and have bombed abortion clinics by leaving devices behind and running away to hide. I call that extremist cowardice.
If they had the balls to strap explosives to themselves at least they could loose the coward designation.
If you are looking for an example of an extremist christian killing people, start with the white house.
Philanthropy is a great idea, in theory, but sending money to feed people in deplorable conditions doesn't help solve the problem, it only worsens it. If two adults can't get find enough food to live on, why should they continue fucking and popping out 10-20 babies that need food too. There's enough resources in almost any part of the world to sustain a limited population, but overpopulation by ignorant beings is the cause of their plight.
The same thing happens with Whitetail Deer, which is why I hunt them. Deer provide me food. I, and a couple million other men and women, provide deer with a stable population so they can remain healthy.
Survival of the fittest, I say.
"Why do you consent to live in ignorance and fear?" - Bad Religion
I trolled there once with some bad words about RR and they threatened to come beat me up. I think their lawyers might be more effective.
appearance means nothing you insensitive clod!
Seriously... given the negetive reaction from various groups over the not-guilty verdict, and the b.s. that happened in the first place - would you want to stick around if you were him.
Deportation sucks, but I'd rather get the hell outta dodge regardless. I wouldn't doubt that somebody might come a'looking for him otherwise.
Ah. OK, so it's normal ill intent. Just checking. Didn't know the details.
I dont know which department is to blame but its happening all over, and since it is not workable through legal route, well...: http://takeaction.amnestyusa.org/action/?step=2&it em=10859
What sacrifice did you make?
Vietnam? Grenada? Haiti? Somalia? Yugoslavia? Iraq?
Please tell me how you sacrificed di** for your country?
Dont kid yourself; You were a paid killer, pure and simple. You might not like the way it sounds but your job definition was pretty simple.
If your boss said 'blow up that school bus', you would have said 'how many times'.
Of course, no jarhead would admit to that. No, we live in the age of perfect wars..trains, schoolbuses or even schools are ne-e-e-e-e-v-e-r hit.
Hell, we have guys running for president (supported by fat egomaniacal windbags) who clearly stated to the world that their goal is to make life unbearable for civilians, who are treated as heroes (proving that the difference between a war criminal and a president is semantics), so nothing should be surprising.
Spare me the holier than thou BS. You might sleep good at night and you might even feel justified but Im sure the nazis (or any other soldier) was as justified as you.
The difference is you ended up playing with the big bullies so you'll never get your hands slapped. Which is why the US went around the world blackmailing countries to give US soldiers 'get out of jail' cards.
As much as the left annoys me, brain dead twits like you who feel they've saved their country by killing someone in their own homes and then try justify it, annoy me more.
Then again, where else can psychopaths go and feel good about killing and themselves?
As for the sheetheads, if you were in Bosnia supporting the fundamentalists there, you must have rubbed elbows with Beaner and his boys, so Ill take your word on it.
Seriously, how brainwashed do you have to be to believe that 'dying for our freedom' crap?
SS brainwashed? or Islamic nut job brainwashed?
Seems like the only way you can get a sane, clear thinking human into being a killing automaton is the same kind of indoctrination.
Some die for allahbaba, others die for Unocal and other dieties.
terry
The charges were "Providing Material Support to Terrorists", he was also acquitted of 2 counts of visa fraud, 1 count of making false statements... but there was a hung jury on 8 other charges that could probably get him deported.
Considering that they successfully deported his wife and child BEFORE the trial began AND the defense only got all of the evidence they needed WEEKS before the trial began they did a fine job.
I've been following this in the Idaho and Spokane papers for a while.
> If the KKK (Christian extremists) were lynching people still,
> you can guarantee you'd have Christians across the country
> outraged by this and telling everyone.
What makes you think that the lynchings have stopped?
Examples that spring to my mind include Matthew Shepard and the lynchings in the U.S. Navy a few years back.
What about the bombing of abortion clinics?
That lunatics aren't limited to the left or right of the political spectrum.
The FBI doesn't need chances, it has The Patriot Act.
O'Connor's speech was affirmed by the Vatican and published widely in Catholic newspapers. It even made CNN. So if you think Christian churches are turning a blind eye to Matthew Shepard, abortion violence and other things done ostensibly in God's name, then all that shows is you're not paying attention.
The jury is not there to use their conscience and decide "does the law make sense!" Nor are they there to decide if a law is "legal or not." That's absurd. They are there to hear evidence, both for and against, and give a verdict based on that evidence as to the guilt or non-guilt of the accused. Sheesh.
Okay in reality as a muslim I'm not outraged by this. I was at one point but now I'm way past the point of outrage. But I didn't feel it as a muslim to a strong degree but as a human. I do not believe those people are accurately representative of my religion pure and simple. Just because they claim to be so doesn't mean they are practicing it.
I am far too removed to affect them in any way. There are some better people then i am attempting to do so. I'm a techy not a politician. I take a stand wherever I think people will listen. Right now I'm just a college student, I know my old Islamic teacher is also against it and speaks against it.
Hmmm... Pie...
they have long been oppressed -- by each other. the current arab value system stems from a basically tribal society being suddenly thrust into the 20th century -- and being empowered with great wealth. thousand-year-old schisms between tribes and religious sects still rage, only now they have access to modern weaponry.
it's a dangerous combination.
Is what lets an all white jury acquit Klansmen accused of lynching a black man. It is what lets a jury acquit a man who killed his wife because she slept with the mailman. The United States (which I assume you are talking about) is a nation of laws. No one is above them. There are ways of dealing with unjust laws, and I have lived long enough to know that they work, if sometimes more slowly than we would like.
Jury nullification is the same brand of wingnut "political thinking" that gives us the John Birch Society and Posse Commitatus. Jury nullification is a violation of the oath you swear as a juror. If you want to know how to deal with unjust laws, read Martin Luther King or H. D. Thoreau or even Eldridge Cleaver for the more aggressively oriented. One common thread is that you put yourself personally on the line, and you are prepared to accept the consequences of your actions. Jury nullification does not improve the laws or the rule of law, it subverts it.
Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
do they have to stop the 'approved' torture now?
From the article:
"Al-Hussayen remains in custody on an immigration hold."
That single fact speaks volumes.
Christians in India do use bombs to kill in the name of religion.
This is surprising to me. Could you provide some evidence in a link?
Christians in the south use bombs to kill abortion doctors in the name of religion.
This is unfortunately true. As a moderate Christian, I am ouraged by the actions of these extremists. Fortunately the full power of the US law enforcement system is used to bring these people to justice.
Muslim moderates aren't obligated to feel outrage over the extremists, especially not for your benefit.
This is a problem. By not being outraged by the activities of the extremists and not assisting in bringing the extremists to justice, the moderates are in fact supporting the activities of the extremists and further hurting the world image of Islam.
Most christians in the US, even the non-KKK variety, were never really outraged against lynching. If they say so now, it's generally more of a political thing, rather than the true sentiment.
I'm not convinced of your qualifications to have knowledge of the true sentiment of most US Christians.
Appraise the Lord!!
"Don't get me wrong, I am not blaming President Bush for all of this."
I wailed when George Bush was declared victor. At that point I had decided to stay away from all news till either President Bush was defeated or retired. September changed all that, for about a year I was really behind the President. I was even for the war in Iraq and the war changed everything I felt.
I think this administration has had its pound of flesh. I thought I knew what I was about. Going into the war, I had concluded the war as being just. Now I am not so sure. The President drew first blood, its that bit which is most bothersome. The position that I now hold is that the anxiety about terrorist attackts from Iraq was probably justified but to go to war over one's anxieties is insane. Pre-emption is I think only justified when one is faced with anihilation like Israel was in 1967
None of these sentiments mean that I hate America or Americans. I believe that America is one of the better things that have come history's ways in a long time. Even in the worst of occasions. When you say people, most of these "people" know only the President (plus assorted characters from American TV shows) so when they say they hate America or Americans, most of the time they mean your President. I personally do not hate your President. I think the man has some admirable qualities. But a job is a job, he is President and he has made a mistake which I franky do not think Presidents should make, he went to war for all the wrong reasons. I can say or do what ever I want to since I am just a civilian but Presidents and Prime Ministers do not have that luxury.
life is all about searching and sorting
It is on his watch. He has surely been in the loop in decisions to compromise what we stand for.
And it was him who said "you're either with us or against us".
Here's someone serving on a jury who JUST DISCOVERED what the first amendment to the Constitution is all about! People are ignorant! Is it no surprise that Bush and his cronies can use fear to keep uninformed, ignorant people in the dark?
This is how he gets away with taking away our liberties in the name of "protecting" us!
...since drinking booze is against islam. (it's sad how many american's don't know that). i'm also curious how many members of hamas you've talked to. unless you've actually been to palestine and talked to members of hamas, your opinion about hamas isn't worth much. same goes for your opinion on israeli settlers, kkk members, fundamentalist christians, american soldiers, or any other group people label as extremist. the label may or may not fit, but i can't decide without meeting the members. as for the very large group consisting of people that make blanket statements about other people without actually meeting them, i've met quite a few of its members. i don't think much of them.
"Saudi Student Sami Omar Al-Hussayen was found not guilty on charges that he 'rendered techical assistance to terrorists' by acting as the webmaster for an Islamic charity."
What??? Are you saying with prison pictures, anti-terrorism bills and customs finger printing that the system still works??!!! Hold me. I feel faint.
You need a FREE iPod Nano
Besides cases like shouting "fire" in a crowded bar, I'm surprised by the imminent action bit. If we stubstitute the term "treason" for "terrorism" in these cases, we see that the US has always had very high standard for what it actually forbids.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
because al-Husseyn looks a bit like Hussein that he was arrested? "Arrest all the those foreign guys beginning with 'H' !" "Yes, sir! Right on it!"
If I promise to be a good boy can I have some better karma?
I'm glad he was acquitted. It's bull how the FBI did and still treat people from the islam culture. I go to the University of Idaho and I hope he Sami gets his PhD and I pretty sure most the Student Body feels similar. Its behavior like this that brings us to the same level of the terrorists. Think about the terror we caused for him and his family. I can only offer my deapest appologies to him and his kin on behalf of this country.
One of my best friends is a Muslim. I've been through Iraq, Kuwait and Qatar. I've read parts of the Koran. (I'm agnostic personally) And yes I know drinking booze is against Islam.
I was just stating the reality that any fuck who comes to my favorite bar spouting off extremist bullshit is going to get thrown out on his ass. Same goes for any member of Hamas, the KKK, Skinhead, or any other bullshit group. And no, I don't need to meet any of them to make my mind up. I know enough about these groups to make the association.
Sami Omar Al-Hussayen may have the right to say what he wants. (The US govt should steer clear of censoring speach.) That doesn't mean I'm going to stand by and let him talk that shit to me, in my face and in my bar.
checked out the website and many of these companies also contribute to the democratic party... (if not all, not enough time). I have not heard of any of these companies giving to '3'rd' party candidates however. Salutations...
Yeah, I don't know how the lawyers let someone intelligent enough to understand the first amendment survive the jury selection process. Usually they weed out such troublemakers....
That's interesting that you say it is a new McCarthyism. I had come to the same conclusion. We are seeing a general social breakdown in the United States. Consider the Enron fraud and the WorldCom fraud and the Tyco fraud, for example. Large companies are self-destructing.
The U.S. government is another example: Unprecedented Corruption: A guide to conflict of interest in the U.S. government
McCarthyism cannot be blamed on McCarthy. He was just one crazy person. There are always crazy people. It was the people who participated and didn't speak up that changed McCarthy from one crazy man to a social movement called McCarthyism.
QOTD: Said one juror: 'The part that surprised me was when I read the First Amendment instructions. I was surprised to learn that people could say whatever they want... providing it would not cause imminent action.'"
Sweet fscking Jesus! This is seriously scary stuff. You Americans are always on about Freedom, Democracy and Human Rights. But it seems to me that what this illustrates more than anything is that the average American simply doesn't know and/or care, when it can come as a surprise, that your constitution gives you these rights. No wonder that the GWB can get away with anything!
Now, to look at this from another angle. You know, when people are starving, all they think about is food, and when they are thirsty, nothing seems more attractive than water. So why are subjects like 'freedom', 'democracy' and 'human rights' so important to Americans?
"The guy was complicit in the most heinous ongoing crime since the 1940s..."
What about the U.S. government killing 2,000,000 Vietnamese? Where does that fit in?
What about the fact that the U.S. government has bombed 24 countries since the Second World War: History surrounding the U.S. war with Iraq: Four short stories. Where does that fit in?
Official Public Notice...
Attention non-US-citizens
We know that you have looked to the United States over the years as a benchmark for progress. The innovation and passion of our infant society and government has made great strides in the progression of humankind.
However, please be advised that this progress has now ceased.
Don't waste your time being disappointed with the obvious lack of logic, consistency, lawfulness or compassion of our people. It has all but evaporated.
America has turned into a society of consumers who value materialism over everything else, and as a result, we interpret "truth" according to the tenets which most benefit our quest for validation within our society of consumption.
Not everyone in our country believes in these ideals, but you wouldn't know that from watching American media.
So the energy you would expend to call attention to the numerous double standards of the ideals that we supposedly espouse might be best served, if they were recycled into a campaign to overthrow the political parties that are employing the misguided notion that large corporations and media conglamorates have the masses best interests in mind.
It looked to me like it said he was aquitted. I guess you only like the parts of 'the book' you agree with or can throw at someone.
We're talking about pseudomilitiant extremist Christians in America today, aka the "Christian Right", which is more of a cultural group than a religious bloc. And while there's probably some militant Catholics out there somewhere, they probably don't get to be counted as part of the "Christian Right" club. In fact, that particular movement sometimes seems to hate Catholics even almost as much as they hate us homosexuals.
No, clearly not all Christians are in with this crowd. And not all Christians are "turning a blind eye" to things like abortion clinic bombings. But within the Christian community a violent minority does exist. And the number of "Christians" that are turning a blind eye, or even to some degree tacitly approving, to the extremists among them is large enough to be rather scary. And the number of Christians who practice their personal religion in a totally healthy, positive and loving way, yet seem to be totally unconcerned that a nontrivial number of people out there are applying the name "Christian" to a religion based essentially around hate, is much larger.
Basically, if you're trying to protest the painting of all Christians with a wide brush, then yes, you're right, good point. But other than that, I don't see how one Christian minority group disapproving of violent tactics makes the actions of another Christian minority group which does approve of violent tactics any less of a "lynching".
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts
Actually there's always a threat of physical (and other retaliation). You can excercise your free speech rights by showing porn on public TV or smoking pot or rallying folks to kill the President of the US. Yes, you can do this on public television. BUT, this does not mean that the first ammendment will cover your ass after you do or say things.
Just like it won't prevent you from getting beaten up in Harlem after calling people names.
"England, Australia, and Japan are to be left untouched. Everything else can go. WOOHOO! GO AMERICA!"
What about Scotland and Wales? Do they not teach you geography in the USA anymore?
Does killing your own people count? Then bump Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and Kim Il Sung and his dad to the top of the list. Not that absolves any lesser murderers...
Plenty of people use it that way, therefore it's perfectly valid. That's how words and phrases work and become part of our language. Good thing the "irreguardless is not a word!" weren't in charge of language throughout human history, or else we'd still be grunting at eachother.
They are here as a guest of the government. If they aren't wanted, for any reason, they can easily be deported. It's the same when you enter the country, the government can just refuse you entry for no reason at all.
Absolutely. It's like your own house. If you don't want some stranger in your house, you don't need a reason to send him out the door. It's your sovereign territory. This guy has his own country. Let him go back there and peddle his website.
Every generation has a group to hate/fear. Hundreds of years ago it was witches. Our parents' generation feared the communists, and now we have the terrorists.
So, you're equating witches (fictional) with the communist threat (non-fictional) and terrorists (non-fictional)?
[PowerPoint] is a tool for capitalist presentation
3/4 of the iraqi population identify themselves with a tribe.
iraq is not unique in this respect. strong tribal influences exist today in SA, the saudi minister of defense emphasized their importance to the kingdom.
pakistan today is rife with tribal problems.
If you are offended by the facts, that's your problem.
directly related to the lesser crimes of (probable) actual terrorists.
I'm afraid "probable actual terrorism" isn't a crime yet, not even a lesser one. We're saving it for Patriot III.
1913!!!
What is it's definition of a computer?
Use a more modern dictionary!
Or if you are using "Word(tm)", type it in and use the thesaurus.
Connive: pronounced (I hope) as [con-nive]
RMB -> Synonyms
Scheme
Conspire
Plot
Hatch up ????
Cook up
I concede that using a "delta" measurement between Republican and non-Republican contributions may be a more accurate metric -- however, nobody appears to have produced such a summary, making this currently the most accurate list of Bush-supporting companies that I have available.
May we never see th
It's the same when you enter the country, the government can just refuse you entry for no reason at all.
That's not completely true. If you claim political asylum rights they have to prove you're not in danger because of your political views in your homeland before being able to send you back.
Considering that since some language in the constitution refers to people or persons while other language refers to citizens, your opinion doesn't seem to jive with the intent of the constitution.
-- "Someone's gotta go back for a shit-load of dimes."
and the "but it was all in one go" argument that has been raised could have applied to the utter destruction of two Japanese cities with nuclear weapons. I find it extremely hypocritical that the US has huge anti-WMD propaganda despite having more than everyone else (put together??) and being responsible for the only attack that used nuclear weapons.
Al qaeda only do things on behalf of themselves - the atrocities being committed in Iraq (and elsewhere) now are done on behalf of Americans, British, Australians and others. i.e. us - you and me. It's the "west" that brought "innocent civilians" into the conflict not the "terrorists".
Of course every killing counts. I have been reading a lot of good stuff about Reagan now since he died. Ok he might have helped ending the cold war by starting an arms race the Soviets couldn't keep up with. But I wouldnt call him a great statesman because of what happed in Central America at the same time. To be honest, there aren't many great statesmen at all...
'The part that surprised me was when I read the First Amendment instructions. I was surprised to learn that people could say whatever they want... providing it would not cause imminent action.'"
what side is this coming from?
surprised that people can not actually say "whatever they want" - if it causes "imminent action" it is not allowed,
or surprised that people could say whatever they want as long as it didn't cause iminent action?
is the person surprised at the lack of free speech or otherwise?
I credit Gorbachev more than Reagan with the transformation of the USSR into post-Communism relatively peacefully. With a more doctrinaire and ruthless leader, like the Kims of North Korea or Castro, a Communist government can hang on indefinitely if they have the will.
While the crusades we're not the West's best hour, it is important to remember they were a response to repeated invasions of predominantly Christian areas by Muslims and the killing and displacement of Jews and Christians throughout these regions. Most of the West has forgotten that what is now Israel, Lebanon, Turkey, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Libya, Morocco, Tunisia, etc. were Christian areas and had been for 500-800 years by the time the Crusades started. The Roman and Byzantine empires were Christian, afterall. So it is revisionist history to see the Crusades as nothing more than the barbaric West invading the peaceful, wouldn't harm a fly, Muslims. Read some history.
Rock on futurepower, rock on!
--------
Free your mind.
You may have lost sight of the fact that McCarthy was correct. He may have been politically incorrect, but there were Communists in the U.S. government and entertainment industry.
Greg Raven
As long as there's any left, I'll take mine first.
"The media down plays the fact that thousands of Muslims ARE living in our Country!" - SheLion
Perhaps nobody has explained to everyone yet that Muslim is not a synonym for terrorist. It's extremely disheartening to see Americans who hold this belief so readily and elicits memories of Japanese concentration camps in America during World War II.
Have we really learned anything from past mistakes?
Although I hesitate to participate in a "competition" for "worst crimes against humanity" by backing any particularly evil contender, I'd say that a global jihad, targeting billions of humans on both sides of a jihad for terror, hundreds of thousands for immediate murder around the world, and putting at least hundreds of millions, if not everyone, at direct risk of nuclear, biological and chemical annihiliation is the most heinous. That is the result of this open-ended crime, which I (among most others) hope will turn out to be lesser than so many we have seen in our lifetimes. Note that the greatness of this escalating jihad/crusade relies completely on terrorist instigators generating massively cruel and destructive responses from a nascent American global police state. The crime is on heads of every participant, dragging every human into its misery and potential doom, which is what makes deliberate provokation so heinous - as heinous as its response. All the dead Vietnamese and other recent war crime victims will have died in vain, if their killers are goaded into widening their scope, rather than learning to move beyond mass "political" murder.
--
make install -not war
No, apparently the jury is still considering the non-terrorist charges, like visa fraud. They should throw that book at him, as I explicitly said in my post. Of course I only like the parts of Justice that I agree with - that's why accepting all of Justice is far from trivial. Otherwise I'd be among those Al Qaeda soulmates who'd redefine the Constitution to punish these assholes for rightfully protected expression.
--
make install -not war
Information: "I want to be anthropomorphized"
I mention "probable", in respect to their presumed innocence, in light of the probability indicated by the revealed evidence. The crimes are terrorism, but the verdict can only be probable until the due process of law is complete.
--
make install -not war
You seem to have lost sight of the fact that being a communist was, is, and should always be legal in this country.
As it wasn't a crime, people should never have been subjected to the threats, investigations, and persecution the government was promoting.
I do not agree with communism. I would not go to a rally. I don't care if the person next to me has or not. The "communists" in Hollywood were just disenfranchised. They weren't Soviet spies.
I would never turn in my neighbor because of something that wasn't, isn't, and shouldn't be a crime.
Leftist?
Someone has a severe chip on their choulder here. This isnt about leftism, its about freedom and consistency.
Back in the eighties when my home town was getting bombed by the I.R.A. I dont remember anyone on US soil being hauled into jail for 18 months on "Terrorist Charges". Why? Because raising money for NorAid wasnt a criminal, terrorist activity. AND NEITHER IS THIS.
Too often Americans forget their recent history books. May I refer you to McCarthyism. Its right there. Between Klan and Prohibition.
Capitalism has nothing to do with it. The majority standing by in their comfortable homes and saying nothing while injustice runs riot is the issue here.
For shame.
I wish at was Friday, but I dont want to wish my life away. So I wish it was last Friday.
When a similar website that touts itself as merely freedom of speechy transfers information that leads to some atrocious Oklahoma City type attack and god forbid white Christian soccer moms are blown up in their minivans.....
Why the fuck didn't someone in charge stop this before it was too late?
See in America in 2004 everyone claims to want unlimited freedom until something bad happens, then they want unlimited punishment.
I think their lawyers might be more effective.
At what, beating you up?
Alito: A vote for Alito is a punch in the eye to put that bitch back in her place!
part of the reason for that is the more obviously guilty the people sitting on the bench are the more the defense goes through the jurors dumping out all the military, college educated and conservative till they have a nice group of sheep who will buy into their story. ive seen it multiple times already.
http://www.livejournal.com/users/cixel
It's quite possible. Between those guys and the folks at Democratic Underground, I don't know who would make a better hot-air balloon. Granted, the freepers did actually do some shit in person in Florida back in 2000... imagine that.
What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey
I agree with you 100%, btw. I'm getting that out there right away because the next bit is off-the-cuff rambling. :) Maybe it will inspire some thoughts or something.
Of course you wouldn't turn in your neighbor because of something that "wasn't, isn't, and shouldn't" be a crime...but when you add "shouldn't", you are making a personal judgement call. Governments don't like that, they like to believe they are in control. (Managers don't like it either!)
The real question is, when push comes to shove, will you stop/try to stop the rapid dogs of hatred from taking your neighbor away, when they come for him? Will you put your own life/reputation/job/whatever on the line for your friends, or what you feel is the right thing to do?
It's all about personal conviction. I either came off sounding like a true patriot, or a radical terrorist there. Hmm.
(The names of the factions in question, and "what is right" have been deliberately removed as they can apply to pretty much any group of 5 or more people, and pretty much any philosophy).
this is gloomy stuff. its true that people in this country (the US) confuse patriotism with blind unquestioning faith in what they're sometimes told. what strikes me is that the internet doesnt seem to be helping americans take a look outside their borders. there are plenty of problems that we suffer that have been solved overseas, and plenty of problems that foreign countries have 'deliberately' avoided. This is off topic but i saw an article called 'Israeli Government Seeks Bulldozer Operators With Experience' at brainsnap.com and got a kick out of it. its not serious but i shouldnt have to say that should i?
You dont have to look very far to find Christians fighting Christians.. Protestants against Catholics actually. And it was as worse that you would find in Middle East. They were bombing civilians, killing kids, shooting soldiers..all the fun stuff.
So yes, Religion, no matter which, makes us all blind if taken in too large a quantity.
Then again, Religion is not the core of all evil, its people, who interprets it to their needs, their wishes. Get rid of people and all Religions will co-exist happily.
Rapid Nirvana
Easy there. He's standing upside-down on the bottom of the planet, so his Left is your Right. Be careful when you adjust you world view.
Do you understand the difference between the words "some" and "all" perhaps? I never claimed they "all" where, just to be aware of the possibility of what are termed in the trade "false flag" operations. And in case you wonder, yes, they occur, I have seen them personally.
Perhaps you yourself need to remove your head from the sand. Google for historical examples of false flag, you might find it interesting just how many very large events were purposely fabricated in order to shift blame for political purposes, and who some of the perps were (and still are).
Intolerance and Greed are just by-products. The one that can sum them all up is [selfish] PRIDE.
Think about it, all problems in this world have come from it.
MOD THIS BITCH UP!!!
you will notice over any given day on the freepers forum that outright calls for mass murder are common, and accepted, and never challeneged by either the forum maintainers or the police-as long as it is directed towards arabic speakers or muslims in general. Any reference to israelis for example gets immediately removed and the poster banned as "anti semitic hate speech". I have seen choice phrases like "kill all the murderous bastard muslims" and etc and "nuke the arabs" is almost a motto there. Yet zero police interference.
Like all other so called "laws" we have, is is only selectively applied, and you can't tell me the FBI doesn't read free republic, they even have open members of various police agencies there, and various other governmental employees, and a lot more cruise it, some of high level. By any other criteria, the owner of the free republic website-JimRob- should have been arrested and charged long ago, following the same exact criteria that this muslim guy was arrested for, and quite a few of the identifiable posters, including most of the more blatant israel-firsters and radical "christian" zionists. There is NO difference in the theme or intent as regards "speech" between the two sites in a lot of cases.
I served as a foreperson on a jury and wasn't aware of the right to jury nullification. The judge instructed us just as they described it in the article ("you may consider "only the facts" and that you are not to let your conscience, opinion of the law, or the motives of the defendant affect your decision").
One person on our jury didn't agree with the law and held out for not guilty. We of course couldn't find for guilty because of this one person. Now I'm glad that he did, because I didn't agree with the law but knew that the person did indeed break it! (Person rode in the passenger seat of a stolen car, knew it was stolen. Woops, did you know that riding in a stolen car, while knowing it was stolen, is grand theft auto? Even if YOU did not steal it!?).
He also ran from the police when they asked him what he was doing in the car and admitted to doing so as well so we found guilty for that. But man I felt like what was going on in the jury room was a miscarriage of justice, now I realize that the Judge lied to us and we almost screwed up! Believe me, that man wasn't the only one who felt the way he did.
Incredibly I just recently got another Jury Duty summons. I look forward to exercising my new found rights if I am selected (and I imagine I will be, given my past experience).
...unfortunately no one can be told what The Mat^H^H^HGoatse is...they must experience it for themselves...
I've brought up the same exact points I can't say how many times on forums and in meatspace, trying to show people how they have been brainwashed. You get met with incredulity, or they claim you are lying or something. I am not amazed any longer at most peoples outright ignorance, and how fast you can move a large population towards extreme jingoism and genocidal thoughts. The worlds master manipulators can play on any sub group they target, whether a nation or religious group or socio/economic/political sub group or "party" like a tuned violin using nothing more than gradeschool indoctrination and control over the most prevalent form locally of the mass media. It takes quite a bit of smarts, integrity and hard work just to get to all the sides of an issue, and even more to come to a contrarian position. Speaking any actual DATA is enough to get you labeled as an "extremist" in a lot of cases. It's in all nations and cultures, too, you can see it, and the worlds bankers/militarist profiteers have been laughing about it for centuries now, because it's a congame that just keeps on working for them.
That is not to say that I will not fullfill my oath to follow the instructions given by the judge/etc. I am not entirely for or against jury nullification, but it is nice to know that if I have a major problem with the law in question that I have some legal legs to stand on when I go to the jury room.
DMCA case anyone!?
...unfortunately no one can be told what The Mat^H^H^HGoatse is...they must experience it for themselves...
Propoganda != Bad Guy != Reality
McCarthyism
Communists != Spies != Liberal Counterculture
Ashcroftism
Islamic Fanatics != Terrorists != Politically active/concerned Muslims
Enough suburban white bread eating 5th generation American protestants need to step up and press our leaders to do as Robert Kennedy did 40 years ago in his famous speach in the Senate. I don't think his brother has the standing to do it...maybe McCain?
When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
I would add Ignorance as well, alot of times people tend to attack that which they do not understand.
Arms race had nothing to do with the fall of the Soviet Union. The United Stated found that by selling gold, oil and gas Soviet Union was able to support itself and have all that influence in the world. Once the influx of this money was cut using market manipulation and CIA activity by smart people in Reagan administration the Soviet Empire died pretty quickly.
So saying that Reagan single handedly defeated USSR is wrong. The United States just was lucky to find the only war that they could actually win. The economic war that is. It was clear since early 70s that arms race is not a solution even to people in Reagan administration.
P.S. Do some research on Reagan and you might find a lot of nasty thing he did. Grenada (we invaded this country), CIA sponsored wars Latin America (Nicaragua for example), the rise of islamic fundamentalism (Bin Laden was on US payroll).
The Bush is representing pretty much all the things that were wrong during Reagan presidency.
I wonder if this non-moslim white cornell CS Professor will also get 25 years for over-staying his visa?
So because he didn't look the part your saying he couldn't be guilty? Because he wasn't scary means he couldn't pose a threat? I really have no idea if he was guilty, but just because someone looks innocent, doesn't make you innocent, just like looking guilty doesn't make you guilty.
Ted Bundy didn't look particularly scary either.
Political and historical knowledge such as this is rare here on Slashdot. We need more of the same.
Slackware, what else when it must be secure, stable, and easy?
Just a side note on this: there has never been, nor is there ever likely to be, a communist state. Communism was a pipe dream in which, suddenly, everyone would magically overcome their greed and selfishness and contribute as much as they could, taking only what they needed. Apparently all that was needed for this to come about was that you had to overthrow the current system and let the 'communists' take over.
The reality was that communism served as a bullfighter's cape to the dictators that espoused it--it distracted their opponents, and wowed the crowd. By obsessing on communism, McCarthy, Reagan, and all the rest did exactly what Stalin (clever, evil bastard that he was) wanted them to do. They wasted their energies fighting ghosts and ignored the real enemy: Stalinism. The ethics of communism were stolen directly from Christianity via the writings of Feuerbach: to the Russians, who were indoctrinated in communist ideology, the talk of the evils of communism had all the appeal of someone saying that all kittens are ugly and must be strangled. The right wing allowed the Stalinists to define the terms of the debate. But the 'communist' states were simply totalitarian regimes whose character was determined by the reigning despot. Had the Americans attacked the Stalinists on these terms, they would have kicked out their ideological underpinnings, made them a lot less attractive to western intellectuals, and attacked the root of their support amongst the Russian people, who might have gotten fed up with them 20 years before they did.
There is something similar going on here. The pieces are still up in the air, but Bin Laden and his imitators are hacking Islam, turning it into yet another red cape to distract the Bull and thrill the crowd.
And it's working. The Bull is goring everyone but the bullfighter.
We don't care when they kill their own people.
"Killing your people? Well, we've been trying to do that for years." "The problem is, Hitler tried to kill the people next door... Oh Stupid Man. After a few years we won't stand for that will we?"
-E. Izzard
Monotheistic religions (e.g. Christian, Islam and Judaism) are magnets to extreme, fanatic points of view. Not to say that all christians/muslims/jews are extremists or fanatics. Think: "there is only ONE God/Allah/Yahveh". That'll make some people do really awful things against 'infidels' (those who practice other religions).
Those people ignore history, they ignore their common religious root... they even ignore their own sacred texts! (purposedly, by ignorance or mere brain-washing). Take, for example, the Qura'an acknowledge the existence of the other religions (I think they're called 'faiths of The Book'... pls correct me).
Last, but not least, all sacred texts of these religions (independent of the useful 'moral' advice they contain) have some passages resembling modern hate literature (advocating, for example, a punishing, vengative God).
Having this in mind, I am not suprised of *some* christians/muslims/jews engaged in violent, hateful actions, whether in the past or in the 21st century. This might end in the extremely unlikely event of humanity moving forward, away of "unquestionable", "true", dogmatic faiths.
It always pays to remember oil when ever discussing ajny geopolitics. China is much more dependent now on oil/energy supplies than it is on a consumer market backed by pieces of paper that the US market represents to them. They have been smart. If you look at what they have been doing with the dollars exported to them for consumer goods, they have been turning around, taking the same exact dollars, and investing in machine tools, etc, the stuff that builds wealth, all the way to entire factories, plus sucking in western investment money to build even larger manufacturing infrastructure. The major US car companies have all announced recently investments in manufacturing plants there-and not for the export market back to the US, but for their domestic market. And that's just one example of many. Increasingly, the US market is losing importance to them, it won't be needed (soon enough) now that they have a large enough middle class to be "consumers' themselves. It's also one of the primary reasons the federal reserve note has been dropping in world wide trading circles-it's no longer necessary for the rest of the world to trade with the buck being the "reserve" currency. It only came about as the reserve currency from the "petrodollar" phenomenon, combined with the fact we USED to be the planets big dog on exporting manufactured goods.
As to china not hating us, this contradicts their military posture, which regards the US first and foremost as their number one enemy and whom they would be at war with in the future. "Hate" per se has not much to do with it realistically, it's just practicality for them. They NEED the oil, we NEED the oil, the EU NEEDS the oil and the explosively growing (pun intended) islamic "world" NEEDS the oil, but there's only enough for ONE of those planetary subgroups left if you look at the next 1-3 decades and whatpasses for proven reserves. And I am even leaving out India, south america and africa and japan, so you can see it's even worse. A few nations left can be self sufficient, nations like canada in particular, russia, brazil, etc, but most nations are completely dependent on cheap oil, and cheap oil is going away soon. and when you are as large as china, well, you can see the potentialities there.
Right now, the US economy is hanging on by a slim thread that is unraveling, precisely because we gave away our diverse manufacturing advantages we had. We gained that edge when we mostly traded our own products within the 50 states and also produced a lot of our own oil at an extremely cheap cost, both in terms of money and in terms of BTUS needed to get more BTUs. Once that started to slip, in the late 60's, we switched even more to foreign sources of oil, but world wide demand was not as great then either, so we were able to continue. That is not the case now, not even close. And china in particular has a projected demand that is amazing, it is going to be shortly higher than our own, and because we don't supply that much oil, and because they have got about all the machine tools and factories and cheap R&D they need from us already,the era of extremely cheap chinese goods to the US will start to slow down as china will be providing those goods to the places that have the worlds *true* reserve currency, which is bulk oil, and that ain't us. In short, we will pretty soon (a matter of some years to perhaps just one more decade) not really have anything china wants or needs, and our dollars will be worth much less to them. It's taken 3 decades on chinas part and our own globalist traders part to transfer all the wealth producing facilities from here to there, but it's about "done" now, so I expect the economic ramifications to be getting exponentially worse, with the resulting political ramificiations to be even MORE worse.
24 countries?
You can't count all the ones bombed by Democrats!
And I am glad he is aquitted. :)
I glanced at the evidence presented to the public, and it wouldn't hold up to a dim light in Moria.
I figured either 1)the FBI goofed but was too embarassed to admit it,
or 2)he did something wrong, but it would not stand up in the US's moderately rigorous court laws.
So I'm happy he got off. And I saw that he was working toward the PhD in prison. Yay my department!!!
She called for the extermination of 700 million followers of Islam.
That is one hell of a fatwa.
"Rocky Rococo, at your cervix!"
Though a sensible person might agree that espousing the core political ideals of the primary enemy of the United States, and attempting to spread those ideals to others in government and the general population, is a problem.
But that's not even the issue. There were *paid Soviet spies* in high levels of government in the United States. McCarthy was correct about that as well, and that's all but glossed over.
True. But let me explain the circumstances--
:(.
Basically, our hero is on the street and sees someone he recognizes driving around. He says whatsup can I get a ride somewhere and gets in his car. Woops seems like the ignition has been popped. He asks if the car is stolen and his friend says no, but the ignition is broken. Our hero says that in the back of his mind he knew it must be stolen, but he needed a ride so he just takes the ride and says seeya to his buddy.
Now. Thats grand theft auto. Suprise
...unfortunately no one can be told what The Mat^H^H^HGoatse is...they must experience it for themselves...
The "communists" in Hollywood were just disenfranchised. They weren't Soviet spies.
-----
You are, of course, correct about McCarthyism, but one should still examine why it was, at least for a time, so believable (and thus, why it caused such panic).
You see, the Soviets did have a number of spies (just not who we thought they were), and they were doing all manner of sneaky things (see the KGB museum, etc.). The irony is that this sort of scare was one of the most devastating PSYOPS, though I have no idea if it was really them behind it. Nevertheless, I would not put it past them in any way to have sent us on wild goose chases to incite terror, all the while getting away with who knows what in the interim.
Support ethnic cleansing in Palestine
3,000,000,000 American Dollars cant be wrong.
Sponsor an Israeli occupier today!
This could be really bad for Bush if free speech is upheld. If we can't control what people say, then there's a good chance we can't control what they think either. And if that happens then we won't be able to keep fighting for the interests of the rich. Our only hope is that Cheney can come up with a plan to get rid of the first amendment.
Propz to Haliburton, ya'll.
Support ethnic cleansing in Palestine
3,000,000,000 American Dollars cant be wrong.
Sponsor an Israeli occupier today!
He's not got a flawless record, but as far as I can tell, he's basically honest. An idiot, perhaps, but an honest one.
Wow. I guess it just goes to show that people can draw completely contradictory conclusions from the same data.
- Is the government going to bullshit the public again?
- Or are they going to deport him for exercising his freedom of expression. Yeah, that'd be bright. Let's show the world what the US really stands for -- yeah.
- Well, to be accurate, he wasn't the website's editor. He simply provided a forum for discussion, similar to what your ISP does. So maybe the US government wants to deport him for getting people together and talk.
- Or are they really going to deport for no reason at all, ignoring things like due process and ideals of fairness.
Like I said, US has the legal right to deport him, but as a democratic country, it has an obligation to him, you and me to act in a decent and civilised manner and that means providing a valid reason for deportation.
Eagle Woman's GPL Guide
Race Sim Central GPL Forums
KFG
Everyone in the military has a specialization outside of "killing people." You can be a technician, or a cook, or a military policeman . The MPs are specifically trained to deal with prisoners. The court-martialled soldiers are members of the military police.
That skanky woman in the infamous photographs is a reservist who work(ed) in the US prison system. These people knew damn well what they were doing: they just didn't give a fuck because they were Arabs. Just like we don't give a fuck about prisoners when we joke about what goes on in US prisons.
Your rationialization has failed.
===---====
Together, we will drive the rats from the tundra.
Support ethnic cleansing in Palestine and help censor the American press!
3,000,000,000 American Dollars cant be wrong.
Sponsor an Israeli occupier today!
People who don't use links should have their messages removed by the moderator, and their posting privileges should be revoked.
Shining Light? Tell that to the Indians that marched the Trail of Tears. Or the ones that were given smallpox-infected blankets. Or the ones who were just shot and killed outright. Of course, these actions were spoken of in the context of "uplifting the red savages" so the general public saw no problem with this.
No, America has not changed much at all. You are just waking up to the truth.
====--====
Together, we will drive the rats from the tundra.
"Legal seizures turned up actual evidence of other actual crimes, visa fraud, which are directly related to the lesser crimes of (probable) actual terrorists."
That is false. The visa fraud charge is direcly related to his participation in the IANA website, since he recieved a stipend for his work (on the order of $100 IIRC). Participation in the IANA website was the sole activity that caused him to be charged with providing material support.
Being a Muslim is and should always be legal in this country.
please... read up. There are 8 charges that the jury did not come to a verdict on. A mistrial was declared on those charges.
http://www.kirotv.com/news/3404315/detail.html
unless of course you can find something like court documents saying otherwise...
none of that has been reported
Correction: The U.S. government gives between 3.5 and 5.5 billion dollars each year to Israel to buy weapons from U.S. manufacturers that are used, partly, to kill Arabs.
Question: Is that helping?
Just like this kid is going to be. He was aquitted, or didn't you read that part?
"Curiosity killed the cat, but for a while I was a suspect."- Steven Wright
While most Muslims are not terrorists, a recent poll found that 57% of all Muslims in the Middle East would provide support and comfort to the terrorists among them. 68% supported bin Laden as a "man who can get things done as a strong leader". Only 26% approved of their policies of killing and suicide bombing. Interpolate those numbera as you like.
If you really want to have your eyes opened to very moderate Islamic doctrine, do a google on the word kuffar/kuffir. A good portion of Islamic religion believes that all non-believers in Islam are in the same category, and are in need of being converted, killed, or have their rights ignored. This crusader attitude is the main disconnect between Western and Islamic nations. Agreements with Kuffir do not need to be honored. Here are some really great opinions by some very MODERATE Muslims at Islam Online. It will make your hair stand on end. This is not like the Japanese situation because Japanese Americans just wanted to be Americans. They did not view non-Japanese as inferior, and they did not put their own culture above the law.
Muslim discussion
"Curiosity killed the cat, but for a while I was a suspect."- Steven Wright
Insteresting. Isn't one of the definitions of "terrorism" now in use - deliberate destruction of a county's financial infrastructure?
The US, a terrorist state?!
I'm shocked.
Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. - Ambrose Bierce
First off, lets just get this out of the way, every war that has been fought throughout history is based upon religion, I challenge anyone to find a war that was not based upon religion of some sort.
The leading cause of death is Religion.
Religion was the cause of the Dark Ages.
Religion was the cause of the Plague.
Religion is the cause of the current world conflicts.
It doesn't matter whose religion it is, it doesn't matter who is right or wrong. The fighting will continue, the deaths will continue, the left and center and right wings will continue with their practices, which are all based upon religion.
Religion is at the base of every bad thing that has happened to the human race.
My only wish, is for the people of the Earth to come to their senses and realize that we are all Human Beings on 1 planet, the same race, the same species, and the only way we are ever going to be able to expand beyond this planet is as a group, not as a bunch of micro groups fighting each other based upon religion. Thank you for your ear.
If firefighters fight fire and crime fighters fight crime, what do Freedom fighters fight?
if you cannot feel outraged at the decapitation of an American soldier, then what do you stand for?
Nick Berg was not an American soldier. He was an American businessman trying to help rebuild Iraq's communication ifrastructure. Hopefully, people wmo might not be outraged at the decapitation of an American soldier will at least be outraged by this.
The US has a lot of political parties: Greens, Neo-Nazis, Lyndon LaRouche, you name it. Smaller parties do tend to have close to zero practical impact on national politics (with the exception of occasional "spoilers" like Ralph Nader), but that's not because they're banned. It's because we don't have one of those parliament/coalition setups. Nobody has to cut a deal with the Flat Earth Party to get one more MP in his coalition so he can form a government. Those systems give the fringe nuts leverage. Ours doesn't, so a lot of the fringe nuts end up voting for the major party which pisses them off least.
You may not like our arrangement, and of course you're quite right: It's inferior to your system because it's NOT your system. Q.E.D.
You also seem to be under the impression that democracy is not a system that gives people the government they want, but rather one which imposes on them the government that you think they ought to have. If "left wing" (whatever that means, if anything) ideas were popular here, somebody'd get elected preaching them. The parties we have are the ones we want. That IS democracy. What you're saying is a lot like claiming that a free market is actually un-free because the only goods that get mass-produced are the ones people want to buy. You've got it backwards.
Secondly, your definition of "left wing" could use a little clarification; most of your "left wing" people are traditionalist religious conservatives. In any case, they, along with all the real left-wingers out there, are immigrating to the States as fast as they can. Funny how evil, awful, right-wing America is everybody's favorite place to emigrate to. Oh, right: The Euros and the Australians won't let anybody in, because they're afraid of foreigners. Fine! More for us.
Totally ignorant on your history. Lucky to win a war? Jesus, you must be a typical left kook who probably spends too much time smokin dope and living on college campuses. Bin Laden was not on US payroll, he was not even associated with the Muhajadin you moron. Bin Laden was actually in another group who was fighting civil wars in Afghanistan. ou say I should learn something, looks like you need to. Latin was was to keep comunisim out of the Western Hemisphere. Simple as that.
-------- Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most. --Ozzy
That's just dumb. Stark difference from driving a plane into financial district(s) vs. catch me if you can with technology.
-------- Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most. --Ozzy
The US, a terrorist state?! I'm shocked. I'm not. But of course, it wasn't terrorism. It was saving the free world, so that's ok then.
Pfft - Sorry, what?
He said the US is orders of magnitude more socially liberal than a thumping majority of the world. He's right. We are. On freedom of speech and the press, we're ahead of everybody. No exceptions. Try preaching Nazism in Europe or Canada some time and see how far you get (hey, I find Nazism pretty nauseating myself -- but whose ideas get banned next?). Try being an observant Muslim woman in France. Try getting a drink in England at midnight. Try being an immigrant with dark skin anywhere in Europe, or anywhere in England outside London. Nativist, explicitly anti-immigrant parties are popular everywhere in Europe. Those ideas don't sell in the US. We find it repulsive.
Those aren't "dodgy places in Africa"; they're the first world.
He was disputing the claim that we're "more right-wing" than most of the world. You're changing the subject in random directions.
Gah, bloody hell, should really preview. Should have looked like this
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The US, a terrorist state?!
I'm shocked.
I'm not. But of course, it wasn't terrorism. It was saving the free world, so that's ok then.
Pfft - Sorry, what?
You can say all you want about Reagan, but when your children become your enemies ally or better yet citizen then you know you've won.t ure.php?wfId=10541 98
Reference:
http://www.npr.org/features/fea
Listen son, I could teach you a few things.
-------- Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most. --Ozzy
This is flame bait? Now you have me confused why should the US constitution protect non US citizens? and why should we allow people in our country who wish it harm?
/. has sunk even lower.
I smell an anti American Mod, what a suprise... LOL
-- Note to liberals, yes please flee to Canada.
>> Oklahoma City was meant to be a wake-up call to a government that was abusing its power.
And 9/11 wasn't? What planet are you on? One of the primary reasons for the attacks was the U.S. government's horrendous abuse of its international power in its constant military and political support for Israel. Do you really think that 9/11 would have happened if we weren't pumping tens of billions of dollars per year into the Israeli occupation? Sure, the hard-line extremists would still be around, but they'd have a much harder time recruiting angry young Palestinians who've spent their entire lives under Israel's heel. Without that framework of frustration and anti-Americanism, these terrorist groups would be utterly ineffectual.
Before some idiot makes the obvious reply here, I am absolutely NOT condoning or excusing ANY terrorist attacks. There is a world of difference between providing an explanation and providing an excuse.
That's really perceptive. But I wonder if the bull's blindness is partly intentional. Our leaders like to have an insidious, terrible threat that justifies national paranoia. Actually, I guess all leaders like that. It seems like Osama and Bush are partners in a way - they both want Osama to be famous, they both want everyone to live in fear of terrorist attacks. They feed off each other.
McCarthy was only right in that there were indeed spies. But he was busy attacking Hollywood and ruining lives there while the hallowed halls of the Justice Dept was rife with spies. And to the parent poster, your logic is flawed (circular logic). They were the chief enemy of the united states BECAUSE they were "attempting to spread those ideals to others in government and the general population". BTW, spreading core political beliefs to other people is what the 1st amendment is all about. Are you some kind of idiot? What is the matter with Americans? If a guy stands on an orange crate and says "Let's throw down the capitalist oppressor!" you'll lynch him, but if he says "Let's all smear shit on our heads!" or "Let's all bow down and worship Jesus!" that's all fine and dandy. Which do you think the people of america would go for? Commies saying "You can't get rich" when our entire culture is geared around greed? There was never any reason for the persecution of communism; it never had a chance anyway, and ignoring it would have been better karma. Same thing goes for whatever dickheads ever criticise: various kinds of music, recreational drugs, abortion, etc etc.
O~ Him that studies revenge keeps his own wounds green. -- Francis Bacon
He was in his thesis writing stage when he was arrested. His advisor has repeatedly said that teh claims that the prosecution made saying his PhD.
See http://www.spokesmanreview.com/boise/story.asp?da
Beetle B.
"So because he didn't look the part your saying he couldn't be guilty? Because he wasn't scary means he couldn't pose a threat? I really have no idea if he was guilty, but just because someone looks innocent, doesn't make you innocent, just like looking guilty doesn't make you guilty."
Irrelevant. He was not proven guilty, so he is innocent. Looks are not an issue.
Beetle B.
That makes sense, I hadn't been in Pullman/Moscow for about a year when it happened.
I'm not sure whether Mr. Reynolds is a "shill" libertarian who doesn't really believe everything he's saying, or a "useful idiot" (to borrow a phrase from Lenin). I suspect the latter, but I haven't read much of his stuff.
Female Prison Rape in NY
"The democrats are trying to pave a road to the white house with the bodies of dead American soldiers."
Darn those Democrats.
For sure i won't step a toe in the USA for the next fifty decades (yeah, by then we'll all be robotized, and get 5 century lifespans).
The more you read, learn and hear, the worst US seems to be : intolerance in diverse fields as racism (muslims), politics (communism), social (gay), violence (cf bowling for columbine), pollution (there was a time countries agreed at Tokyo, but not the US, again) with what i see as a montruous selfishness, egocentric "i don't care for what they say i'll do what i want" overall stupidity and blindness.
For a country of free speach, US can only fool themselves. Yeah, i live in Europe. France more precisely. It is not that perfect, i know. But i can live there, have any friend i want, love whoever i want, be black or white, without being classified as a terrorist, get shot down, accused of being a communist (what the hell ! 60's are a bloddy 40 years ago ! Forget it man !). Well, i'll stop that, i have some work to do.
As i have spent a whole year in Canada and saw that people can be northern american, english speaking people, be fond of guns, eat burger king, and NOT be stupid.
Please note that i have nothing against the USA. My only wish is that they open their eyes and mind, shut their mouth, and stop to behave as if they were alone on this planet.
I usually write my comments very carefully, to be only constructive. Sorry for that flamebait, but it seems many people in the US seem lacking basic 'common sense'. Damn, some can maybe not name all 5 continents ! (and refering to bowling for columbine, some people do not even know Gandhi). Well i know every contry cannot have 100% smart-ass people, and here in europe we do not know everything too, but we have some sort of knowledge that we are not the only one in the world.
Sorry to the slashdot readers, this is flamebait, and you for sure are not the people who i am blaming.
The parent, which discusses Al-Husseyn's complicity, if not legal guilt, in some really bad actions, is no "Troll". If you disagree, say something meaningful to convince us. Otherwise, you're complicit, too. All for the price of a heavy moderator hand.
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make install -not war
The guy apparently committed visa fraud - even if only in the tiny amount you mentioned. And that's all we've got to deal with his larger actions, which are part of the collective guilt of the networks of people helping terrorists. So why should he receive any *leniency*? What kind of mitigating circumstances are there? Of course, we don't hang people for visa fraud. If he's proven guilty of that, but not of other crimes (accomplice in sabotage, murder, etc), what's wrong with sending him back to the country he came from, where he doesn't threaten the exact liberties that were his comfort here, because he can't exercise them?
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make install -not war
So another jury will consider them. Why are you protecting this asshole from justice for the crimes that could be proven? Do you live in America? Anywhere that is threatened by the horde of "not my fault" enabling zombies across the world contributing to the rising tides of fear and fascism? Where does your armchair lawyering put you?
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make install -not war
- Aren't
- Terribly
- Hard
- To Find
On Yahoo Groups.Quod scripsi, scripsi.
Domain forwarding problems: Try History surrounding the U.S. war with Iraq: Four short stories.
tribalism and feudalism in iraq, written by an iraqi. part 3 and 4 are particularly interesting.
g iraq.blogspot.com/tribalmap.JPGa q.blogspot.com/legend.JPG
http://healingiraq.blogspot.com/
http://healin
http://healingir
it's not the west calling iraq tribal. it's the iraqis themselves calling it such.