I think those are precisely the reasons why outsourcing is now moving away from india to poorer countries. Once the standard of living in india rose a little bit it could no longer compete with china, vietnam, russia and such.
Pretty soon now those indian IT folks will be complaining about lost jobs too.
The job of a corporation is not to raise the standard of living in your country. As soon as your wages go up they will yank your jobs to some other place. India is not on the tail end of boom cycle. Soon they will hit the bust part Boom and Bust global economy.
"And what if those techs can't get it the sound to work either?"
Then they order PCs with sound cards that work. Most likely they will order pre-installed systems anyway. Most PC companies will pre-install your OS of choice when you order through the corporate plan. Dell will even pre-install system management software for you if you ask them.
The corporate techs will have a script that locks down the desktop and installs a few apps and off they go to the user.
"My point was that people will drop piss-poor apps like a bad habit, no matter how much the programmer whines about how he shouldn't be a slave to users. "
My point is that you are wrong. My point (and really it seems to be your point too) is that people will continue to use piss poor applications and operating systems if they cost less then good ones.
"Basically, I'm saying that programmers shouldn't bitch if people don't like their stuff. If you don't want to hear feedback, keep your app on your private network and don't release it into the wild--obviously there was an intention for widespread usage by putting it online."
I am happy programmers are putting things on the net. Just because you can't get it to work does not mean I should be deprived of it.
"2) Considering how much software is available out-of-the-box, and via Fink and/or darwinports, I can't really see myself needing much else at this point. "
fink actually is pretty small. Darwinports does not resolve dependencies so I won't even try it.
"Hasn't happened yet. And even when it happens, shouldn't be a problem for any geek worth her salt."
Well if you pay a thousand dollars for a server OS you expect someting better then what you get for free. When I use freebsd and I want something I go to/usr/ports and do a make install. It resolves all the dependencies for me and helps me configure the package. The Mac os server has nothing like that. You have to download each and every library and try to compile it yourself. Not fun.
"Does Not Work For The User, or are you using a different definition of "broken"?"
Oh where to begin...
PHP is very barebones. I wanted to add some modules try that and tell me how much fun it is. Cryadmin does not work at all (missing perl modules). Try to get sieve working. Try and figure out why the installed squirrelmail is giving odd errors and then delivering the mail anyway (sometimes). Try to integrate spam or virus checking. Why does jboss create files that are symlinks to themselves? How does it do that? The DNS gui frequently blasts away all that you have painstakingly put into your zone files when you want to anything tricky at all (like split horizon dns for example). The Samba often pukes when transfering large (gigabytes) size files. Nobody seems to know why. How come the email server ignores the relay list sometimes? I think it has something to do with the SMTP auth myself, if you turn it off then it behaves better. Did you try to create a self signed apache cert yet? Fun isn't it? Did you try installing a perl module through CPAN yet?
I could go on for days.
Mac OS X server is not ready for production use unless your server needs are extremely limited. As soon as you venture out of the very limited gui configuration you end up in hell.
Oh one last thing do a netstat -an and then try to pick up your tongue off the floor.
Yes it's in the control panel. Unless it's in administrative tools menu. Unless it's in that thing that comes up when you right click on my computer and then manage. Unless of course it's in the application itself. If it's not in any of those places you may have to open up the registry and search in there.
I'd rather grep -i whatever/usr/local/etc any day.
History shows the people will not move on to something else. They will continue to use the software and bitch and moan about it but they won't install a competing product or buy a competing machine.
If what you said was true Apple would have a monopoly.
Microsoft does this too but to a much greater extent. If you are successful then they will copy your product and include it with the OS for free to cut off your air supply.
1) A decent package/ports system. Fink is very small, darwinports does not resolve dependencies, pkgsrc is hit and miss on ppc. Resign yourself to compiling everything by hand and resolving dependencies by hand.
2) A community that can help out with difficult stuff. When you want to get some open source software working on the apple file hierarchy or go beyond the simple click and point the community really thins out fast.
3) Not having to deal with a set of curiously broken built in software especially on the server edition (granted you are probably not running that on your laptop).
Man that's rich. Your faith is not strong enough to get you up to go to church so you schedule your worship around your schedule. Why not just pay somebody to pray for you?
Disclaimer: I am an atheist. I really don't get this thing at all.
"Funny, I've already read two out of three of those articles. Not a single one of those shows Microsoft's side of this story. EVERY court case looks like it has been clearly won before the other side steps up and speaks its mind."
Once again you demonstrate that you don't have the ability to read and comprehend.
The links I pointed to state clearly that the judge has already made a ruling on a small but important point about this case. Both MS and Lindows made a case to the judge regarding the validity of the windows trademark. The judge has said that the use of the word "windows" BEFORE MS named their product should be considered when determining if windows is a legitamate trademark. This is devestating to MS because windows was commonly used when describing GUIs. MS of course promptly appealed.
BTW I gave four links and three of them were from neutral parties. They are descrbing the outcome of the case not the arguments presented in the case.
"Funny, they claim that Microsoft was putting them out of business overseas, hence the urgent name change. $120,000 a day is a lot."
That's right. MS having failed to prevail in the US went to europe and got enourmous fines levied. If those fines continue then lindows would go out of business. But they just renamed their PRODUCT until the US case is settled so they won't have to pay those fines.
"Nope. That's a twisting of what I said in a transparent attempt to discredit me. "
That's exactly what you said. Sorry.
"I also gave sufficient proof of a way that could happen."
You gave no proof. You simply stated that somebody could mistakenly buy lindows when they meant to buy windows. This is a ridiculus argument to make because lindows is not sold in retail stores. Only one company sells pre-installed lindows and only on the web and only in a section that's separate from windows. How you think a reasonable person will confuse the two is beyond me.
"Well, if that's what you do, don't expect a response from me."
Why would I want respect from you?
"Well, if that's what you do, don't expect a response from me."
I have tried to see your point. It all boils down to two arguments you keep making.
1) A reasonable person would confuse lindows linux and microsoft windows operating systems. They might mistakenly buy one when they meant to buy the other.
2) MS has the right to stop companies from naming their products with words that rhyme with windows or resemble windows or contain some of the letters W I N D O and S.
"Thank god it is or you'd be living in scam land."
Look man I already gave you an example where two companies that have same name and the same product clashed in court and the smaller company won. You seem to think that if the names rhyme then it violates trademark. This is simply not the case.
"He can't throw the trademark out. What he can do is say "Let's let a jury decide." Frankly, I doubt it'd go even that far. Microsoft's position with their trademark is considerably stronger than it has been made out to believe on Slashdot. Putting it to a jury makes it even easier for them to sell. It's not going anywhere, sorry."
It's usually best not to open your mouth when you are so ignorant. Here are a couple of links you should read before you go around saying such things in the future.
"Doesn't matter. It looks like Windows, it acts like Windows, but it isn't Windows. Far too easy for somebody to end up with that without realizing what they really got."
Yes it does matter. No it does not look or act like windows. No it's not easy for somebody to end up with it because it's not available via retail and you have to go to a special area of the walmart web site to get it.
Maybe it's easy for you to get confused but a reasonable would not get confused and end up with the wrong product.
"Microsoft risks very little other than money and a slim chance that they lose the (R) next to their name. Thing is, they still own that mark even if the judge throws it out. Nobody's going to forget what Windows is. Frankly, it wouldn't be hard for Microsoft to cook up a new trademark to stand behind."
If microsoft loses the windows trademark it would be devestating to them. They will not risk it and if looks like they will (and it's looking like that) they will pay big bucks to get this case settled.
"Yeah maybe. What MS is doing to them is excessive. Then again, they opened themselves wide open to it. Are you really sure this was a brilliant move by Lindows? Sounds like you're telling me that MS's wrath is killing them. At least that's what I read in the various articles on this topic."
I don't think you know how to read. It's not going to kill them, it not going to devestate them. They have changed the name of their product (temporaririly) but their corporate name is still lindows. That's because in the US they can still use lindows as a name. In europe they have (temporarily) lost the right to use lindows as a product name. The whole lawsuit is probably going to cost them less then a million dollars and the potential rewards are in the tens to hundreds of millions of dollars because MS would pay anything to hold on to that trademark.
But this is getting us nowhere. You have this odd idea that companies own common words and all words that rhyme with them. You haven't read up on the case, you don't really know what you are talking about. You just keep repeating the same old mantra that an average person would would somehow be confused into buying a lindows PC thinking it's windows. That's just an idiotic statement to make and I guess there is no way to convince you otherwise.
"Read it on the screen? Perhaps not. Hear it spoken verbally? Nope, there's risk there."
Thank god the law is not as simple minded.
"Have a look at this screenshot here of Lindows. This is what Walmart is showing us. Sorry bud, that looks a LOT like Windows. Frankly, it wouldn't take long for somebody to buy this computer, then buy a Windows app for it not realizing it's not the same thing."
Except for the fact that it's not called windows, walmart puts in a section different from PCs with windows and it won't run windows programs, there is no MS or windows logo anywhere.
"He could choose between not filing the suit, and voluntarily give up the trademark. Most would agree that's force. Lindows made a very dumb move."
Actually it was brilliant.
First of all Lindows got a lot of great publicity.
Secondly MS will not risk losing their trademark and offer them a bunch of money to settle. All they have to do is hang on for a little while longer. The US court case is still in progress and as I said before the judge is already leaning towards throwing the trademark out. All the risk is on MS. BTW the judge is also pissed off about MS suing in europe before this one is settled so I imagine he is not thinking highly of MS right about now.
"The name is too similar, the product is too similar."
Sez you. A reasonable person does not think that lindows and windows are the same word. They also do not think the KDE and windows XP look or act the same. They certainly don't confuse the windows logo with the lindows logo.
I have given you an example where the the name was exactly the same (McDonalds) and the product was exactly the same (burgers) and yet McDonalds lost. You think that simply rhyming with a brand is enough to lose the case but you are very wrong. It is possible to have the exact name and product and still prevail in a trademark case.
"Simple. Go to a store that sells computers. Have the salesman show the lovely couple a new computer. They see it, see something that looks vaguely like Windows (hey, it's their first computer, what do they know?), he calls it Lindows but they didn't catch him saying that as opposed to Windows that they hear all the time."
Lindows does not come pre-installed on any retail computers. Walmart was selling them via the web only. On the web site they are listed in a separate section called PCs without windows. Nobody could be confused by that.
"That's why Microsoft was forced to sue them."
Mmm yes. Somebody held a gun to Bill Gates head and forced him to file the lawsuit. Right on buddy.
Slashdot Mirror
Postgres is great. Too bad it's not multi threaded though. That kind of limits it's performance.
Come now. Yesterday Linux was dying because one sound card did not work WITH NINE DIFFERENT DISTROS.
Today Linux is alive and well and thriving.
You mean to tell me that this kind of dramatic turnaround is not news? Linux came back from the brink of death to picture of health in ONE DAY.
Now that's news!
Those jobs will have moved to cambodia or someplace else way before the indian IT worker gets 75% of what an American makes.
I think those are precisely the reasons why outsourcing is now moving away from india to poorer countries. Once the standard of living in india rose a little bit it could no longer compete with china, vietnam, russia and such.
Pretty soon now those indian IT folks will be complaining about lost jobs too.
The job of a corporation is not to raise the standard of living in your country. As soon as your wages go up they will yank your jobs to some other place. India is not on the tail end of boom cycle. Soon they will hit the bust part Boom and Bust global economy.
Good luck.
"And what if those techs can't get it the sound to work either?"
Then they order PCs with sound cards that work. Most likely they will order pre-installed systems anyway. Most PC companies will pre-install your OS of choice when you order through the corporate plan. Dell will even pre-install system management software for you if you ask them.
The corporate techs will have a script that locks down the desktop and installs a few apps and off they go to the user.
People will transition to linux after they get used to it at work. They will want it at home so they can take some of their work home too.
First the corporate desktop, then the home.
"My point was that people will drop piss-poor apps like a bad habit, no matter how much the programmer whines about how he shouldn't be a slave to users. "
My point is that you are wrong. My point (and really it seems to be your point too) is that people will continue to use piss poor applications and operating systems if they cost less then good ones.
"Basically, I'm saying that programmers shouldn't bitch if people don't like their stuff. If you don't want to hear feedback, keep your app on your private network and don't release it into the wild--obviously there was an intention for widespread usage by putting it online."
I am happy programmers are putting things on the net. Just because you can't get it to work does not mean I should be deprived of it.
"2) Considering how much software is available out-of-the-box, and via Fink and/or darwinports, I can't really see myself needing much else at this point. "
fink actually is pretty small. Darwinports does not resolve dependencies so I won't even try it.
"Hasn't happened yet. And even when it happens, shouldn't be a problem for any geek worth her salt."
/usr/ports and do a make install. It resolves all the dependencies for me and helps me configure the package. The Mac os server has nothing like that. You have to download each and every library and try to compile it yourself. Not fun.
Well if you pay a thousand dollars for a server OS you expect someting better then what you get for free. When I use freebsd and I want something I go to
"Does Not Work For The User, or are you using a different definition of "broken"?"
Oh where to begin...
PHP is very barebones. I wanted to add some modules try that and tell me how much fun it is.
Cryadmin does not work at all (missing perl modules). Try to get sieve working. Try and figure out why the installed squirrelmail is giving odd errors and then delivering the mail anyway (sometimes). Try to integrate spam or virus checking.
Why does jboss create files that are symlinks to themselves? How does it do that?
The DNS gui frequently blasts away all that you have painstakingly put into your zone files when you want to anything tricky at all (like split horizon dns for example).
The Samba often pukes when transfering large (gigabytes) size files. Nobody seems to know why.
How come the email server ignores the relay list sometimes? I think it has something to do with the SMTP auth myself, if you turn it off then it behaves better.
Did you try to create a self signed apache cert yet? Fun isn't it?
Did you try installing a perl module through CPAN yet?
I could go on for days.
Mac OS X server is not ready for production use unless your server needs are extremely limited. As soon as you venture out of the very limited gui configuration you end up in hell.
Oh one last thing do a netstat -an and then try to pick up your tongue off the floor.
" Yes, if Linux is going to be the OS for newbies. "
It's not. That's what Macs are for.
Linux is going to be for the corporate desktop where the techs will set up a locked down config that can be managed remotely and kept secure.
Neither does whining about it.
The only thing that will make the problem going away is if the manufacturer writes a driver. If they choose not to then that's that.
BTW: What are YOU doing about solving the problem?
Yes it's in the control panel. Unless it's in administrative tools menu. Unless it's in that thing that comes up when you right click on my computer and then manage. Unless of course it's in the application itself. If it's not in any of those places you may have to open up the registry and search in there.
/usr/local/etc any day.
I'd rather grep -i whatever
Why do you care? When you install something in windows you may get hundreds of DLLs but you don't care do you? Same thing.
What an odd thing to complain about.
History shows the people will not move on to something else. They will continue to use the software and bitch and moan about it but they won't install a competing product or buy a competing machine.
If what you said was true Apple would have a monopoly.
And yet it was never designed to be a multi user operating system.
VMS was awsome. Steady as a rock. Scalable as all hell. NT was and is nowhere near.
" It reduces a lot of downtime, and I find that the biggest bottleneck on the computer is actaully me."
You know I noticed that the other day too. I suddenly wished there were two of me to take advantage of the os to get more stuff done.
Microsoft does this too but to a much greater extent. If you are successful then they will copy your product and include it with the OS for free to cut off your air supply.
Doesn't seem to have stopped anybody though.
Yes but you are going to miss a couple of things.
1) A decent package/ports system. Fink is very small, darwinports does not resolve dependencies, pkgsrc is hit and miss on ppc. Resign yourself to compiling everything by hand and resolving dependencies by hand.
2) A community that can help out with difficult stuff. When you want to get some open source software working on the apple file hierarchy or go beyond the simple click and point the community really thins out fast.
3) Not having to deal with a set of curiously broken built in software especially on the server edition (granted you are probably not running that on your laptop).
Ask any christian. They will tell you all about the prophesies that are being fulfilled in iraq.
Ask George Bush who has said that God told him to go to war.
Ask Osama Bin Laden who said that God told him to go to war.
Man that's rich. Your faith is not strong enough to get you up to go to church so you schedule your worship around your schedule. Why not just pay somebody to pray for you?
Disclaimer: I am an atheist. I really don't get this thing at all.
"Funny, I've already read two out of three of those articles. Not a single one of those shows Microsoft's side of this story. EVERY court case looks like it has been clearly won before the other side steps up and speaks its mind."
Once again you demonstrate that you don't have the ability to read and comprehend.
The links I pointed to state clearly that the judge has already made a ruling on a small but important point about this case. Both MS and Lindows made a case to the judge regarding the validity of the windows trademark. The judge has said that the use of the word "windows" BEFORE MS named their product should be considered when determining if windows is a legitamate trademark. This is devestating to MS because windows was commonly used when describing GUIs. MS of course promptly appealed.
BTW I gave four links and three of them were from neutral parties. They are descrbing the outcome of the case not the arguments presented in the case.
"Funny, they claim that Microsoft was putting them out of business overseas, hence the urgent name change. $120,000 a day is a lot."
That's right. MS having failed to prevail in the US went to europe and got enourmous fines levied. If those fines continue then lindows would go out of business. But they just renamed their PRODUCT until the US case is settled so they won't have to pay those fines.
"Nope. That's a twisting of what I said in a transparent attempt to discredit me. "
That's exactly what you said. Sorry.
"I also gave sufficient proof of a way that could happen."
You gave no proof. You simply stated that somebody could mistakenly buy lindows when they meant to buy windows. This is a ridiculus argument to make because lindows is not sold in retail stores. Only one company sells pre-installed lindows and only on the web and only in a section that's separate from windows. How you think a reasonable person will confuse the two is beyond me.
"Well, if that's what you do, don't expect a response from me."
Why would I want respect from you?
"Well, if that's what you do, don't expect a response from me."
I have tried to see your point. It all boils down to two arguments you keep making.
1) A reasonable person would confuse lindows linux and microsoft windows operating systems. They might mistakenly buy one when they meant to buy the other.
2) MS has the right to stop companies from naming their products with words that rhyme with windows or resemble windows or contain some of the letters W I N D O and S.
"Thank god it is or you'd be living in scam land."
Look man I already gave you an example where two companies that have same name and the same product clashed in court and the smaller company won. You seem to think that if the names rhyme then it violates trademark. This is simply not the case.
"He can't throw the trademark out. What he can do is say "Let's let a jury decide." Frankly, I doubt it'd go even that far. Microsoft's position with their trademark is considerably stronger than it has been made out to believe on Slashdot. Putting it to a jury makes it even easier for them to sell. It's not going anywhere, sorry."
It's usually best not to open your mouth when you are so ignorant. Here are a couple of links you should read before you go around saying such things in the future.
From law.com"
Linuxworld
eweek
The windows trademark is clearly at risk.
"Doesn't matter. It looks like Windows, it acts like Windows, but it isn't Windows. Far too easy for somebody to end up with that without realizing what they really got."
Yes it does matter. No it does not look or act like windows. No it's not easy for somebody to end up with it because it's not available via retail and you have to go to a special area of the walmart web site to get it.
Maybe it's easy for you to get confused but a reasonable would not get confused and end up with the wrong product.
"Microsoft risks very little other than money and a slim chance that they lose the (R) next to their name. Thing is, they still own that mark even if the judge throws it out. Nobody's going to forget what Windows is. Frankly, it wouldn't be hard for Microsoft to cook up a new trademark to stand behind."
If microsoft loses the windows trademark it would be devestating to them. They will not risk it and if looks like they will (and it's looking like that) they will pay big bucks to get this case settled.
"Yeah maybe. What MS is doing to them is excessive. Then again, they opened themselves wide open to it. Are you really sure this was a brilliant move by Lindows? Sounds like you're telling me that MS's wrath is killing them. At least that's what I read in the various articles on this topic."
I don't think you know how to read. It's not going to kill them, it not going to devestate them. They have changed the name of their product (temporaririly) but their corporate name is still lindows. That's because in the US they can still use lindows as a name. In europe they have (temporarily) lost the right to use lindows as a product name. The whole lawsuit is probably going to cost them less then a million dollars and the potential rewards are in the tens to hundreds of millions of dollars because MS would pay anything to hold on to that trademark.
But this is getting us nowhere. You have this odd idea that companies own common words and all words that rhyme with them. You haven't read up on the case, you don't really know what you are talking about. You just keep repeating the same old mantra that an average person would would somehow be confused into buying a lindows PC thinking it's windows. That's just an idiotic statement to make and I guess there is no way to convince you otherwise.
"Read it on the screen? Perhaps not. Hear it spoken verbally? Nope, there's risk there."
Thank god the law is not as simple minded.
"Have a look at this screenshot here of Lindows. This is what Walmart is showing us. Sorry bud, that looks a LOT like Windows. Frankly, it wouldn't take long for somebody to buy this computer, then buy a Windows app for it not realizing it's not the same thing."
Except for the fact that it's not called windows, walmart puts in a section different from PCs with windows and it won't run windows programs, there is no MS or windows logo anywhere.
"He could choose between not filing the suit, and voluntarily give up the trademark. Most would agree that's force. Lindows made a very dumb move."
Actually it was brilliant.
First of all Lindows got a lot of great publicity.
Secondly MS will not risk losing their trademark and offer them a bunch of money to settle. All they have to do is hang on for a little while longer. The US court case is still in progress and as I said before the judge is already leaning towards throwing the trademark out. All the risk is on MS. BTW the judge is also pissed off about MS suing in europe before this one is settled so I imagine he is not thinking highly of MS right about now.
SMACK.
How dare you leave off the daily show with John Stewart. The funniest show on TV.
"The name is too similar, the product is too similar."
Sez you. A reasonable person does not think that lindows and windows are the same word. They also do not think the KDE and windows XP look or act the same. They certainly don't confuse the windows logo with the lindows logo.
I have given you an example where the the name was exactly the same (McDonalds) and the product was exactly the same (burgers) and yet McDonalds lost. You think that simply rhyming with a brand is enough to lose the case but you are very wrong. It is possible to have the exact name and product and still prevail in a trademark case.
"Simple. Go to a store that sells computers. Have the salesman show the lovely couple a new computer. They see it, see something that looks vaguely like Windows (hey, it's their first computer, what do they know?), he calls it Lindows but they didn't catch him saying that as opposed to Windows that they hear all the time."
Lindows does not come pre-installed on any retail computers. Walmart was selling them via the web only. On the web site they are listed in a separate section called PCs without windows. Nobody could be confused by that.
"That's why Microsoft was forced to sue them."
Mmm yes. Somebody held a gun to Bill Gates head and forced him to file the lawsuit. Right on buddy.