"It's that last one I think you are having a problem with. THAT is my point. I'm not alone in this thinking, as your very first post on this topic was in reply to someone else who thought going the Java route in Windows is more work to deliver the same product. And we all want to be more productive, don't we?"
Yes I am having a lot of problem with it because it presumes that somehow.NET stack is superior to the java stack. That is a stupid (and indeed zealotry based) presumption. Whoever said.NET was more productive then java is not measuring productivity correctly. On top of that they are only looking at the build phase of the software development lifecycle which is the less then 10% of the lifecycle of a product while completely ignoring the bugfixing and the maintenance portions of the application lifecycle.
By no rational measure is.NET development with visual studio more productive then java development with eclipse and the full array of tools like ANT, Xdoclet, Junit etc. The only reason to chose it is because of ignorance, lack of talent or pure zealotry.
Most windows shops are zealots by definition. They have decided that windows is the only tool that should be used to solve every single one of their problems (hence a windows shop). Other IT departments recognize that you should use the right tool for the right job and often this means a tool not written by MS. Windows shops are blinded by their zealotry and will never consider a solution not written by Ms.
I don't get it, are you under some kind of an impression that java does not work on windows?
Why wouldn't you do java development in windows and enjoy the benefits of the massive open source community (sorry but it dwarfs the open source.NET community) and the stable API?
"s far as the CLR vs the Java runtime goes, Java byte code is fairly specific to java. It's possible to create non-Java languages that target the byte code, but it's not particularly practical. The CLR, on the other hand, was designed from the start with the idea of multiple language support."
There are more languages running on the java VM then there are running on the.NET VM.
"It may not seem like a big deal to some, but being able to write more or less equally capable code in VB.NET, C#, J#, C++, Python, or a long list of other languages really does increase adoption."
Yuck. What kind of project manager would consent to building an application in five languages?
"The CLR affords far better platform specific integration than Java."
Only for windows.
"The security framework built into.NET (Code Access Security) is arguably more refined and capable than the model built into Java. "
Arguably? Yes I would call bullshit and argue that.
"The CLR has support better support for a variety of programming constucts, such as generics, than Java does... or, in some cases did but the latest and greatest java releases have done a pretty good job and matching.NET's language feature set."
The 1.5 Java (the current stable release) has generics and annotations and more.
"While both.NET and Java are free, the application servers they run on are not. "
Really? I guess the people who write JONAS, Jboss, Spring, Geranimo are all dead now and all their code has been destroyed by a massive bomb. Yup there are absolutely no free J2EE containers left all. Your only choice is Websphere!. Next time you FUD don't use this talking point, it just makes you look stupid.
"Not really. It's an evolutionary step. "
Nah, it's just a rip off. It would have been an evolutionary step if it had multiple inheritance. Lucky for us parrot is humming along. That will be a very nice evolutionary step and from the looks of it will be faster then java and.NET.
Sorry to introduce facts into your advocacy but I just couldn't let this FUD post go without a reply especially one that is ranked so undervedly high.
1) All the windows programmers who were using visual C++ and visual basic are now forced to use.NET. In a couple of years they will all be forced to use avalon and what ever else MS comes up with. MS programmer use whatever MS gives them.
2) Visual studio lets you slap controls on a screen and call it an app. Never mind the fact that you have just built an application which will bog down in maintenance headaches for the rest of it's life, you built in a day!. This "ease of programming" is like crack to a MS programmer. They get a rush out of delivering their unmaintanable application in a week. To hell with a proper layering, logging, configuration, relational layers, and whatnot.
Who says java is trouble. It's much more elegant the.NET, is easier to scale and has a more stable API. Not to mention the wealth of open source libraries.
I was thinking about the revolutionary war. The brits came here hoping to quell the revolution but ultimately were not successfull because they were fighting old wars and old enemies. The brits were used to fighting in ranks, they marched in ranks, set up in ranks, fired in ranks. These tactics were very successfull in europe but ended up being futile against the americans who had learned to fight a new way from the indians. The americans jettisoned both the tactics of fighting in ranks and any "honor" from warfare. Instead of facing their enemy honorably and firing they hid behind trees and used guerrilla and ambush tactics to defeat the brits.
For the last two hundred years those tactics have served the US well. We have continually hit the enemy when they are sleeping, weak, and "blinded" by radar jamming etc.
Now the US military is fighting a war that is as queer to them as the american tactics were on the brits. People with no honor exploding bombs in cities, beheading, hostage taking etc. I often wonder if the US military will meet the same fate as the brits. When I look at a project like this I think they will. They are still fighting the russians and the chinese while the russians have been castrated and the chinese are buying us out.
Let's say that some idiot comes to power by convincing the stupid masses that if they didn't vote for them the evil dark people will explode nuclear bombs in their back yard and the homosexuals will destroy their marriage. Would this idiot then try to make the schools better and make sure kids can tell the difference between shit or shinola, or would he try to undermine science classes?
Business people are people. A very small minority are good guys, most of them are asshole lying fucks. Oddly enough the more successful they are the more they are lying asshole fucks.
I don't think it's possible for an honest man to get far in business. The honest ones never row past the mom and pop corner store stage. That's why I always try to shop at the small guys.
Firefox on mac, nothing pops up. There is probably a web bug in there though, the status bar loads from at least three different sites. I don't have the energy to run it through sockspy.
The salient point here is that the CIO makes a decision that MS does not like. MS then "meets" with the executive branch and exchanges "goodwill" and a few nudges and winks. Next think you know the executive branch wants to strip the CIO of the power to make technological decisions.
If I was a MA resident I would be extremely alarmed.
I learned a lot from 9/11. For example I didn't know about what happened in the congress about the florida elections, that was interesting. I also didn't know people were egging the president's car and that he had to change course. That was also the first time I saw footage of the president being told about 9/11 and seeing the blank dumb expression on his face.
What I learned most was that the press in the US is not free to report those things. I should not have had to see a movie to see those things, they were news and they should have been in the news. The fact that the so called "liberal media" didn't report them says a lot.
Michael Moore may have been a little strident but at he was a wimp compared to what the right wing did to him. They made personal attacks on him a daily thing. What was funny was that they often resorted to attacking his weight and calling him ugly because they could not dispute the facts of his movie. At least Moore did not call bush ugly or made fun of how he looks.
I'll take moore over hannity, oreilly, teller (or is it penn?), dennis miller, and the rest of the right wing zealots any day. At least he tries to make sure things he says actually happened and does not resort to cheap shots like calling people terrorists or anti american.
mmmm. He wrote a book that sold well and was influential. He wrote fetchmail which is in every linux distro so I think you have give the man some credit.
He may be a gasbag but at least he is not a lying peice of shit gasbag like Ballmer or Gates are. I think you have to keep things in perpective here. Corporate america is full of gasbags who have done nothing useful in their whole lives. These people not only speak marketdroit gibberish but they would not know the truth if it bit them on the ass. Have you ever read an interview with Gates which did not include at least one lie? How about Ballmer? How about the nitwits who run Sun? These fucktards don't even know what they want to say let alone how to say it. One day they hate open source the next day they love it. One day Ms is evil, next day they are buddy buddy. You wonder how they walk around with all that bullshit coming out of every orifice in their body.
If the disgusting duo of Ballmer and Gates isn't bad for MS then how can ESR be bad for open source. Sometimes you need gasbags and as far as gasbags go ESR is not too bad. Sure he puts his foot in his mouth once in a while but at least every word out of his mouth is not a lie.
I'll take ESR over the CEOs of Sony, Ms, Intel, Sun any day.
Once again. It's not progressive. It's not designed to slow you down. It simply seems to go into ether occationally for no reason. It is a bug as far as I can tell.
Your car is either designed or it's not. If you make that claim with no other supporting data such as who designed it, how they designed it, why they designed, and how and why each piece is there and what it does then your chances of being right are 50/50.
So the universe is either designed or not, it's 50/50 right? Except the people who advocate evolution have a mountain of evidence and can carefully explain all the parts and how they go together. The ID people have jack shit. They can't even tell you who the designer is and they offer no evidence whatsoever. They simply say "it must be designed because my mind is not able to conceive of another explanation".
Yes and that is a very important point. The jewish lobby is also better organized, and has a louder voice thanks to many prominent jews in the entertainment industry and news media.
That is not to say that there are not wealthy arabs of course there are but it seems like they haven't found a way to wield their money to increase the influence of the muslim community at large.
Having a louder voice will probably take a very long time though and they may never have somebody with the power of speilberg, streisand, katzenberg, seinfeld etc. The only muslim character I can think of on TV is on lost and he is played by a Hindu (I am not sure about his religion).
I actually saw this exchange on CSPAN between kenneth Lay and a congressman (not verbatim).
"Did you know you had to report these earning in this way?" "No I did not" "Why not? That's just basic accounting" "I didn't know that's all" "When you went to school didn't they teach you that?" "I guess not". "What did you major in?" "I have an MBA". "YOu have an MBA and you didn't know a basic accounting principle? Where did you get you degree from?" "Harward business school".
Man I fell down laughing. It wasn't a great advertisement for Harvard or capitlaism for that matter.
I have never met him so ESR may indeed be a prick but I think he was talking metaphorically there. I think he was talking about the open source community in general.
Slashdot Mirror
Given the conservative nature of most "enterprises" I'd say it will take another year or two. Look how long it took them go from COBOL to Java.
Of your list webobjects comes the closest. ROR is a kind of a anti-j2ee thing. Do people still use coldfusion?
"It's that last one I think you are having a problem with. THAT is my point. I'm not alone in this thinking, as your very first post on this topic was in reply to someone else who thought going the Java route in Windows is more work to deliver the same product. And we all want to be more productive, don't we?"
.NET stack is superior to the java stack. That is a stupid (and indeed zealotry based) presumption. Whoever said .NET was more productive then java is not measuring productivity correctly. On top of that they are only looking at the build phase of the software development lifecycle which is the less then 10% of the lifecycle of a product while completely ignoring the bugfixing and the maintenance portions of the application lifecycle.
.NET development with visual studio more productive then java development with eclipse and the full array of tools like ANT, Xdoclet, Junit etc. The only reason to chose it is because of ignorance, lack of talent or pure zealotry.
Yes I am having a lot of problem with it because it presumes that somehow
By no rational measure is
Most windows shops are zealots by definition. They have decided that windows is the only tool that should be used to solve every single one of their problems (hence a windows shop). Other IT departments recognize that you should use the right tool for the right job and often this means a tool not written by MS. Windows shops are blinded by their zealotry and will never consider a solution not written by Ms.
Pulling out five year old stats counts as you pulling them out of your ass fuckwad. Why don't you get a recent survey.
By the way you think IBM and Giga might be a little biased?
"The vast majority of Java app server usage is comprised of exactly two productions: WebSphere and WebLogic."
Are you pulling this out of your ass or do you have some stats to back you up? Last I checked Jboss was the most popular Java app server.
Seeing the rest of your astro turfing posts on this thread my bet is that you are pulling this out of your ass.
I don't get it, are you under some kind of an impression that java does not work on windows?
.NET community) and the stable API?
Why wouldn't you do java development in windows and enjoy the benefits of the massive open source community (sorry but it dwarfs the open source
"s far as the CLR vs the Java runtime goes, Java byte code is fairly specific to java. It's possible to create non-Java languages that target the byte code, but it's not particularly practical. The CLR, on the other hand, was designed from the start with the idea of multiple language support."
.NET VM.
.NET (Code Access Security) is arguably more refined and capable than the model built into Java. "
.NET's language feature set."
.NET and Java are free, the application servers they run on are not. "
.NET.
There are more languages running on the java VM then there are running on the
"It may not seem like a big deal to some, but being able to write more or less equally capable code in VB.NET, C#, J#, C++, Python, or a long list of other languages really does increase adoption."
Yuck. What kind of project manager would consent to building an application in five languages?
"The CLR affords far better platform specific integration than Java."
Only for windows.
"The security framework built into
Arguably? Yes I would call bullshit and argue that.
"The CLR has support better support for a variety of programming constucts, such as generics, than Java does... or, in some cases did but the latest and greatest java releases have done a pretty good job and matching
The 1.5 Java (the current stable release) has generics and annotations and more.
"While both
Really? I guess the people who write JONAS, Jboss, Spring, Geranimo are all dead now and all their code has been destroyed by a massive bomb. Yup there are absolutely no free J2EE containers left all. Your only choice is Websphere!. Next time you FUD don't use this talking point, it just makes you look stupid.
"Not really. It's an evolutionary step. "
Nah, it's just a rip off. It would have been an evolutionary step if it had multiple inheritance. Lucky for us parrot is humming along. That will be a very nice evolutionary step and from the looks of it will be faster then java and
Sorry to introduce facts into your advocacy but I just couldn't let this FUD post go without a reply especially one that is ranked so undervedly high.
"What makes .NET more attractive?"
.NET. In a couple of years they will all be forced to use avalon and what ever else MS comes up with. MS programmer use whatever MS gives them.
1) All the windows programmers who were using visual C++ and visual basic are now forced to use
2) Visual studio lets you slap controls on a screen and call it an app. Never mind the fact that you have just built an application which will bog down in maintenance headaches for the rest of it's life, you built in a day!. This "ease of programming" is like crack to a MS programmer. They get a rush out of delivering their unmaintanable application in a week. To hell with a proper layering, logging, configuration, relational layers, and whatnot.
Who says java is trouble. It's much more elegant the .NET, is easier to scale and has a more stable API. Not to mention the wealth of open source libraries.
That's not the case with HBO and they make some of the best TV shows on the market.
I was thinking about the revolutionary war. The brits came here hoping to quell the revolution but ultimately were not successfull because they were fighting old wars and old enemies. The brits were used to fighting in ranks, they marched in ranks, set up in ranks, fired in ranks. These tactics were very successfull in europe but ended up being futile against the americans who had learned to fight a new way from the indians. The americans jettisoned both the tactics of fighting in ranks and any "honor" from warfare. Instead of facing their enemy honorably and firing they hid behind trees and used guerrilla and ambush tactics to defeat the brits.
For the last two hundred years those tactics have served the US well. We have continually hit the enemy when they are sleeping, weak, and "blinded" by radar jamming etc.
Now the US military is fighting a war that is as queer to them as the american tactics were on the brits. People with no honor exploding bombs in cities, beheading, hostage taking etc. I often wonder if the US military will meet the same fate as the brits. When I look at a project like this I think they will. They are still fighting the russians and the chinese while the russians have been castrated and the chinese are buying us out.
Time will tell I guess.
Let's say that some idiot comes to power by convincing the stupid masses that if they didn't vote for them the evil dark people will explode nuclear bombs in their back yard and the homosexuals will destroy their marriage. Would this idiot then try to make the schools better and make sure kids can tell the difference between shit or shinola, or would he try to undermine science classes?
Business people are people. A very small minority are good guys, most of them are asshole lying fucks. Oddly enough the more successful they are the more they are lying asshole fucks.
I don't think it's possible for an honest man to get far in business. The honest ones never row past the mom and pop corner store stage. That's why I always try to shop at the small guys.
Firefox on mac, nothing pops up. There is probably a web bug in there though, the status bar loads from at least three different sites. I don't have the energy to run it through sockspy.
The salient point here is that the CIO makes a decision that MS does not like. MS then "meets" with the executive branch and exchanges "goodwill" and a few nudges and winks. Next think you know the executive branch wants to strip the CIO of the power to make technological decisions.
If I was a MA resident I would be extremely alarmed.
I am still waiting for an editable grid AJAX component.
Note that I was modded down to zero for taking a position that was in opposition to the current administration.
I learned a lot from 9/11. For example I didn't know about what happened in the congress about the florida elections, that was interesting. I also didn't know people were egging the president's car and that he had to change course. That was also the first time I saw footage of the president being told about 9/11 and seeing the blank dumb expression on his face.
What I learned most was that the press in the US is not free to report those things. I should not have had to see a movie to see those things, they were news and they should have been in the news. The fact that the so called "liberal media" didn't report them says a lot.
Michael Moore may have been a little strident but at he was a wimp compared to what the right wing did to him. They made personal attacks on him a daily thing. What was funny was that they often resorted to attacking his weight and calling him ugly because they could not dispute the facts of his movie. At least Moore did not call bush ugly or made fun of how he looks.
I'll take moore over hannity, oreilly, teller (or is it penn?), dennis miller, and the rest of the right wing zealots any day. At least he tries to make sure things he says actually happened and does not resort to cheap shots like calling people terrorists or anti american.
At 18 you can work in a bar but you can't drink there. Strange but true. You can serve drinks but can't have one for yourself.
It's just retarded puritanism that's all. We are still in the dark ages in so many ways.
mmmm. He wrote a book that sold well and was influential. He wrote fetchmail which is in every linux distro so I think you have give the man some credit.
He may be a gasbag but at least he is not a lying peice of shit gasbag like Ballmer or Gates are. I think you have to keep things in perpective here. Corporate america is full of gasbags who have done nothing useful in their whole lives. These people not only speak marketdroit gibberish but they would not know the truth if it bit them on the ass. Have you ever read an interview with Gates which did not include at least one lie? How about Ballmer? How about the nitwits who run Sun? These fucktards don't even know what they want to say let alone how to say it. One day they hate open source the next day they love it. One day Ms is evil, next day they are buddy buddy. You wonder how they walk around with all that bullshit coming out of every orifice in their body.
If the disgusting duo of Ballmer and Gates isn't bad for MS then how can ESR be bad for open source. Sometimes you need gasbags and as far as gasbags go ESR is not too bad. Sure he puts his foot in his mouth once in a while but at least every word out of his mouth is not a lie.
I'll take ESR over the CEOs of Sony, Ms, Intel, Sun any day.
Once again. It's not progressive. It's not designed to slow you down. It simply seems to go into ether occationally for no reason. It is a bug as far as I can tell.
Your car is either designed or it's not. If you make that claim with no other supporting data such as who designed it, how they designed it, why they designed, and how and why each piece is there and what it does then your chances of being right are 50/50.
So the universe is either designed or not, it's 50/50 right? Except the people who advocate evolution have a mountain of evidence and can carefully explain all the parts and how they go together. The ID people have jack shit. They can't even tell you who the designer is and they offer no evidence whatsoever. They simply say "it must be designed because my mind is not able to conceive of another explanation".
Yes and that is a very important point. The jewish lobby is also better organized, and has a louder voice thanks to many prominent jews in the entertainment industry and news media.
That is not to say that there are not wealthy arabs of course there are but it seems like they haven't found a way to wield their money to increase the influence of the muslim community at large.
Having a louder voice will probably take a very long time though and they may never have somebody with the power of speilberg, streisand, katzenberg, seinfeld etc. The only muslim character I can think of on TV is on lost and he is played by a Hindu (I am not sure about his religion).
I actually saw this exchange on CSPAN between kenneth Lay and a congressman (not verbatim).
"Did you know you had to report these earning in this way?"
"No I did not"
"Why not? That's just basic accounting"
"I didn't know that's all"
"When you went to school didn't they teach you that?"
"I guess not".
"What did you major in?"
"I have an MBA".
"YOu have an MBA and you didn't know a basic accounting principle? Where did you get you degree from?"
"Harward business school".
Man I fell down laughing. It wasn't a great advertisement for Harvard or capitlaism for that matter.
I have never met him so ESR may indeed be a prick but I think he was talking metaphorically there. I think he was talking about the open source community in general.