"Has anyone who uses the above argument ever gone dumpster diving for CC numbers?"
Yup.
"f Sears throws all their receipts through a shredder, are you really going to be able to sift through that mess and find one good number?"
Having worked at a mall before, I can assure you that most places (not all) do very little in the interest of CC security. None (that I saw) even owned a shredder, much less used one.
As an example, the place where I worked threw the carbons out with the trash. The trash went into the dumpster. Within the span of ten minutes, I promise I could dig up 50+ CC numbers out of one bag of trash. (if I could stand the smell:-)
Good point. However, I think that security may need to be a bit draconian (though the `flogging' example may be a bit much;-)
Going from a shop that has little security (like mine (sigh)) to one with good security will be a bit harsh. However, that's a Good Thing(tm).
I would guess you live at or close to Stanford. Question: do you lock your doors at night? When you leave, maybe? Always? Maybe you or your household had to be bugalurized once or twice before you did that. See the parallel (tenuous, I know)?
My point is that security is more than passwords. It is, truly, social engineering. People may pick passwords that are `dead easy' to guess, but if the IS department is expecting that, then it only takes one or two deletions of imperitive project software (with apropos backups, to be sure) for the (l)user to catch on.
Eventually, the easy passwords will pass and the user, understanding the consequense on having stupid-type security, will embrace passwords like 1guYbv%^&bbejkkc.
Actually, I'd believe that the scripting is a bit screwy. Note that there aren't always neato little quotes at the bottom of pages anymore. I think Rob's trying to tweak the M2 stuff. Used to be, I would M2 twice and get a point in karma. Now I think it's ten, but I have no proof.
Anyone know anymore (Rob, feel free to respond, here)??
How about something like the Sony minidisc covers? It's a thin plastic cover. Inside the player, the disc slips out of the cover and is read by the laser.
"It's so darned general, it almost makes you think it could be a search engine for business related sites"
That's actually a pretty good idea. Run a business directory, list all (or as many as you can) businesses, break 'em down into categories, do reviews, etc. Charge a buck to register as a business and have a subscription-based thing for the customer (two or three bucks for all of the juicy details of all businesses in a certain category), or do a charge-per-look kind of a thing (a quarter per business search).
While I understand that all of the information is already free and readily avaliable to the public, I think people might pay for the convenience of having it all in one place.
The customer is happy because they can dig up dirt on competetors, find the exact, perfect business to suit their needs, and do this faster than going to the BBB with more info than the yellow pages can provide. The business is happy because, hey, cheap advertising.
Would this work, or have I just had too much crack this morning?
"it is thankfully the constitutional right of the rest of us to openly laugh at and mock you for espousing such extreme views."
It is also our right to educate and to forgive. It is also our right to illustrate ignorance, so that others may not be so blind. It is also our right to remember that we are all human beings, and that we all fall short at some point.
I'm terribly sorry that this is your definition of `hippie'. I call myself one with pride.
To me, a hippie is someone who places trust in friends, knows right and wrong, knows how to fight for the former and avoid the latter, and will (generally) do The Right Thing(TM).
I guess hippies grew up a bit after the Seventies (disco; what were we thinking?!?!?) and Eighties (Greed is Good).
Anyhoo, my parents were hippies back in the day, as it were, and I guess I'm loosely following in their footsteps (I'm 22).
How does that adage go? Something about judging a book or something (y'know, I'm too high on pot and flower power to remember (for the humor-impared, that was sarcasm, and it was intended to be nice sarcasm)).
StarFace wrote: "You don't happen to be Tom Clancy incognito?"
I'm not Tom Clancy, but I play him on Slashdot.:-) Actually, the book that got me into this whole thing was _Run_Silent,_Run_Deep_. Don't know the author, but I read it in sixth grade. Been hooked ever since.
craw wrote: " I suggest you read Wenz, Acoustic ambient noise in the ocean: spectra and sources"
I most definantly will. Thanks. BTW, I've never had any formal training for this. I appreciate you pointing out my mistakes.
craw wrote: "IOW, local noise sources will dominate the signal received by the sensor."
By local, do you mean 100 meters? 1,000 meters? 10,000 meters? If passive sonar can be effective at upwards of 50,000 meters (or greater when acoustical conditions are good), then local becomes kinda moot, I would think.
craw wrote: "Your last part of your comment describes flow noise past a solid object. In this case, your model is more appropriate for describing noise at the sensor, not the source."
Ok. However, there will be noise at the source. Analogy time. Let's say that you're in a completely empty warehouse. There is some ambient noise, either from air conditioning, or outside sources, or whatever. While some of the noise will be confused, there will be a fairly constant source of noise. We'll call that flow noise. Now, your friend walks silently up behind you (by silently, I mean that he doesn't make any movement to cause any noise that would be louder than the ambient `flow noise'). You would then notice the person, not because he was making noise, but because he was blocking noise and effectively becoming a hole in the air.
This is my personal experience. I have ultra-hyper sensitive ears. YMMV.
My point is that what you `hear' (or don't hear) is a result of a very slight change in timbre in the general flow noise. Because you hear something slightly different than what you expected to hear, you can detect your friend, even though he has made no noise whatsoever. In other words, he was too quiet.
And, if you took two steps to your left, you could triangulate a bearing because the change in the sound would remain localized to your friend.
Am I making any sense at this point?
SEAL wrote: "You can adjust your buoyancy any way you want. This is done with ballast tanks, of course.[...]Some boats can rapidly cycle water within special tanks. The idea here is to keep the sub level, since it is tough to perfectly adjust the different ballast tanks available on the boat."
Right. However, those adjustments cause...you guessed it: noise. What's a boomer driver's biggest worry? Noise. Since it's easier (and quieter) to maintain depth by going 2 or 3 knots, that's what they'll do.
I guess I should have said, "For all practical purposes, a sub (especially a boomer) will never not move."
Good point.
SEAL wrote: "A missile sub will stop when preparing to launch missiles"
At which point noise is a non-issue (klaxions, tube doors opening, blast of compressed air to shove the missle out of the tube, etc.). But, you are right.
SEAL wrote: "For example when running submerged, you get backpressure on your exhaust due to the water it has to push through (via the snorkel)."
I was under the impression that snorkels were only used when near the surface, when running the diesels for long periods (recharging the battery, reactor maintenace, etc.). When a boat is at (let's say) 100 meters, the exhaust goes out the rear. The exhaust can then act as propellant, and the backpressure is mitigated in the cavitation of the blades.
I might be completely wrong on this, of course.:-)
SEAL wrote: "Oh yeah, and the diesel gives everything on the boat, especially your clothes, a quite unforgettable odor.:-)"
from the article: "35 million lines of new code in it."
Add that to the 35 million lines of code already in NT, and you've got 70 million lines of code. Even if it is modularized, it's still going to be a cast-iron bitch to manage. And let's say that Win2k includes the OS, IIS, and some management tools, in addition to all of the other things that come with NT.
Everything but the OS ~ 25 Million lines (rampant speculation) The OS ~ 45 Million lines
I don't know about you, but I'd rather not try to make all of that play nice. And linux is nowhere near that large (for the OS by all of the `Ask Slashdot' definitions of OS).
"It's just not fair to compare that to win2000 which is based upon a very sound component model: COM"
COM is nice and all, but to take full advantage of it, Microsoft would have had to rewrite NT to utilize it. Do you think they did? Not very likely, or else thay would be touting it as a ground-up rewrite, not just as NT 5.0. That would lead me to believe that there is a bunch of old C code stuffed in.dll files from Windows for Workgroups in Win2k. COM, AFAIK, doesn't play well with non-COM code. Ergo, Win2k is going to be a maintenance nightmare.
"I cannot help but note that a lot of users of the release candidate versions of win2000 are generally happy with it."
I've noticewd this too. Everyone who uses it as a client is really happy with it. Everyone I know who works for Microsoft who uses RC3 (or even RC2) refuses to use it as a server. Why? Unstable. Buggy. Acts really wierd. Unusable as a web server. The list goes on.
Specific example: a friend of mine works for Microsoft. He has eight boxes at home. One is a file server and proxy. That is his NT box (4.0 SP 4.0). He won't use Win2k as the file server. Why? Win2k is not robust enough for use as a file server for a seven node network. Seven nodes. Imagine an enterprise environment.
Ok, time for me to get back on topic. I don't think ESR was spouting FUD. I believe that he was making remarks based on experience, logic, and reasoning. If you have an OS that has 35 million lines of code (NT 4.0) and has stability problems, and you then add an additional 35 million lines of code, and you code the additional bits in a different manner (COM), don't you think that there would be problems?
Ok. This reply is going to cover the three replies I've received so far. I apologize in advance for the long post. And to anyone thinking of dropping out of High School, stay it, if only for the math (you'll see why later). Bear with me.
craw wrote: "What are the sources of ambient noise in the oceans?...I'm going to assume that you are talking about high frequency sources, given that you allude to blockage."
Actually, I was referring to flow noise. Flow noise occurs because, well, water flows. When trillions of molecules of water move and tumble and collide, they make noise. Depending on water speed, depth, and temperature, water can have all three frequency ranges...
craw wrote: "However, the propagation paths will be complicated due to the vertical sound speed structure and the variablity of this function. Note that rain and breaking wave sources will be broadly distributed (including those close to the sensor)."
Correct. This is complicated further by the position of the thermoclyne(sp?).
When water is of two contrasting temperatures, the cold water will sink and slow down. It forms a fairly flat `layer'. On top of this is the warmer water. Water on top of the layer tends to move faster and have more variety of currents. Therefore, detecting sound below the layer from above the layer is more difficult than detecting sound above the layer from below the layer. Since the layer sits at between 200 and 600 feet, it's easy to stay underneath it.
Now, if I'm 100 feet below the layer, and the Typhoon is 100 feet above the layer, and the chop is about 20 feet (think mid-Atlantic in fall), I will probably have a difficult time hearing her.
If the chop is closer to 5 feet, however, and all other factors are equal, I should be able to hear the Typhoon if I'm +- 3 degrees to either side of her (like this:/\).
Below the layer, these factors are mitigated.
craw wrote: "If you are talking about low frequency signals, then the dominant source is shipping, earthquakes, and whales."
And flow noise (below the layer). Remember that the currents under the layer run at about 3 to 6 knots. These currents are not nearly as fickle as the currents above the layer, therefore, we can depend on them (a bit more).
craw wrote: "If natural fluctuation occur, then how do you differentiate betweeen natural fluctuations and the "silence" of a sub?"
If the current is coming from the East, and there's a Typhoon to my East, then depending upon the difference between our respective `altitude' (can't remamber the proper word) and distance between us, I may be able to detect her, either from an absence of flow noise, or because of a variance in what I'm expecting to hear. The point is that I should hear x amount of y different types of noise. If x is ever more than a standard deviation off, I have cause to investigate. More on this later.
Ozwald wrote: "When moving air hits a round object (or an object boing through air), it tries to go around and continue on its original path."
But is does not do this perfectly. See below...
Ozwald wrote: "Ever drive down a highway at 100 km/hour behind a truck/trailer? Being directly behind one causes your car to bounce side to side from the truck's turbulance until you finally get atleast beside the cab of the truck."
You have proven one of my points for me. (Keep in mind that Typhoons can't (and wouldn't) go 100 kph) Ok, when you're behind that semi, everything concerning the air is totally different than it would be if you were not behind that semi. Because it is there, and because it is causing a disturbance several meters behind itself (you don't tailgate, right;-), you notice that it's there. That's one thing to look for.
Another point: have you ever sat in the back of a pickup? If it's going slow, the air is calmer right next to the cab than it is by the tailgate (it's much easier to light a cigarette there). If you're looking for a sub that's going reeeeeealy slow (as boomers are want to do), they will leave `holes' in the water at those speeds. How big a hole is a function of the speed of the boat (I wish I could remember my trig - all two weeks of it before I dropped out. Thought I forgot, didn't you?).
Legend: * = Flow Noise . = Hole in the Water (quiet water)
Because of this hole in the water, the noise that reaches the sonar will be different for roughly that shape (as in the diagram above) for a certain distance at a certain speed yadda yadda ad nauseum.
Ozwald wrote: "A aerodynamic object like a plane, submarine, trout, etc. are designed not to cause turbulance from movement alone,"
Number one: They may not be designed to, but they do. Remeber that air is a liquid too, for the purpose of this exercise. Liquids have this nasty property called adhesion. Because all of the molecules of (water|air) are togeter in a finite space, moving one molecule will case it's neighbors to move. This is called drag. For a better explination of why this is a problem and possible solutions (for aircraft, anyway), look up the Laminar Flow wing here and here).
Ozwald wrote: "but it is impossible not to if it is maintaining a speed or accelerating."
Subs have to move. Kinda like sharks. Well, they dont have to, but they need to. Why? Three reasons (off the top of my head):
Steerage. Almost the same problem as above. Any good skipper will try to go no slower than 2 or 3 knots. That way, the boat will still be responsive to steering input. Why? beacause...
Sonar equipment only works in cones or echelons. Problem: you cannot cover the entire 360 degrees around a boat with one passive sonar. Solution: have multiple passive sonars. Most boats have a front array, lateral array, and some (I know the Los Angeles boats do) have towed arrays. For those to work, the boat needs to be able to move the arrays around (purposes of triangulation and all).
Therefore: Subs will never not move. Boomers will usually hold a really slow speed, but it's constant. Laminar flow problems and adhesion cause disturbances in the water, especially under the layer. And a really good sonarman can detect these disturbances.
Maybe nukes would be good. Think Maskrovia in _Red_Storm_Rising_ You set off your nukes at very discreet, tactical targets. Make sure, however, to nuke one large city in a very messy way. The US responds, and you make sure that, while some of your cities are being taken out, you nuke, say, Kiev. Now the Russians are in on it, and you have support.
Of course, this scenario ignores the fact that your country is a glowing hole in the ground...
My other thought revolves around guerrela warfare. If you get enough nationals in the country in the 6-12 months prior to commencement of hostilities, you may be able to set up enough of an infrastructure to paralyze the US for 72 hours. That would be more than enough to push to Washington and sue for peace (following your "East-Coast Scenario").
Right. The largest military sub to see active duty.
"it is nuclear powered rather than desal (sp) powered"
Wrong. The Typhoon boats are nuclear, diesel, and battery powered. Why do you think they were so darned big? The reactor put out enough juice for a city. If that failed, there were two mammoth diesel engines. By mammoth, I mean 12'x10'x6', 10,000+ hp, and enough tourque to drive the boat through the water at 20 knots. Should those fail, there were two large banks of dry cell batteries on either bow. The batteries served three purposes:
Means of electrical power.
Additional trim control. Since the reactor and the diesels were aft and the missles midships, there was a lack of weight up front. Solution? Several tons of batteries added a degree or two of down angle to the centerline. Voila; a controllable boat!
Armor. Considering how much explosive was in a NATO torp (618lb for the mark 48), and considering that one could be fatal to a smaller boat, and considering that one Typhoon carried 20 ICBMs, any tactical advantage that one could get was worthwhile. Since the Typhoon's designers felt that most torps would hit the bow (standard sub tactics says to turn into a torp; makes for a smaller sonar return), having a boat that could take several hits and still fight (or stay alive long enough to launch her missles) made good tactical sense.
"I don't think the largest sub in the world is more silent than the water around it."
Wrong. Here's an example: Let's say that there is a skyscraper in the middle of a field (just follow me on this). Now let's say that the wind is blowing out of the North. Let's also say that you are blind, and walking past the south side of the building (going East to West). There will be a point when the building will start to block out the wind. Logic will tell you that it's no longer windy, and it's also very quiet. You may then deduce that there is a building to your right. Here's a diagram: ********************** ********************** .........--------***** .........||||||||***** .........||||||||***** ....o....||||||||***** .........||||||||***** .........||||||||***** .........--------***** ********************** **********************
Now, relate that to being in a sub. Since there is always ambient noise in the ocean, the trick is to find someplace where there isn't enough noise. That'll be a Typhoon (or maybe a Charlie) with her plant cut way back. If you know where you are and how fast you're going, you can figure a bearing on the Typhoon. Once you have that, you can use basic trig to figure out range, speed, and mark, in that order. After that, it's simple to sneak up and fire your torps and get back out.
zantispam (who gets waaaaaaaay to into this stuff)
Actually, I seem to recall seeing the counter be greater than 1. Before Rob got the new servers, there were days that it would be 2, 3, 4, or even 5. I never saw it larger than 5, though.
I had always assumed it to be current users (or current instances of root). This conclusion came from the fact that the more other people posted (Hemos, Cliff, Robin, et al), the higher the number was...
...We ask. Usually the topic will come up with coworkers over breaks (smoke, coffee, beating, whatever). Granted it is against company policy to discuss these things, but people are such that the topic does come up.
Usually it's something like: --Man, they don't pay me enough for this sh*t. --Don't worry. I probably make less than you anyway. --How much less?
And there you are. You can either talk about it or not. Even if you don't say, "I make X per hour" or "I make X per year", saying "I bring home around 15% more than Joe" who everyone knows makes roughly 60k, is enough to get a good idea of who makes what. All it takes is one person's salary to use as a baseline and you can pretty much figure it out by percentages...
I assume you looked at Squid. I may be totally wrong about this here, but here goes (Disclaimer:I have no experience doing this myself. This is my experience seeing other people doing this.)
I have a friend who is an admin who runs squid to do this very thing (sort of). Here's the deal: he runs squid on a box in front of the mail box. Since squid is a cache proxy, you can (and do) look at everything that passes through it. The mail is directed to the squid box. A few lines of perl look for attachments on the mail. If yes: delete/run as guest/send back/whatever; if no: put in the queue. The mailbox (the one that all of the users get their mail from) runs fetchmail. It wakes up periodically, looks in the queue, and pulls over any new mail. IIRC, you can set it up to deposit the mail on an NT box (if needed) so you can run Norton (or whatever). In this way, the mail is disinfected, the users run Win9X, you run *nix, and everyone is happy.
If you like, you can also use perl to pre-sort and filter the incoming mail:.doc attachments go here,.exe attachments go |/dev/null, etc. Hope this helps...
"as Christians do not generally mean that they believe God picked up a pen and wrote out the Bible in KJV English when they say that the Bible is the "word of God.""
I understand that. My point was not to point out what most Christians generally believe. I was merely stating that, IIRC, the only thing that God did write were the Ten Commandments. Him, Himself, with His hand. He didn't write the books that became the Bible.
"It happens to be precisely what many Christians believe about the origin of the books of the Bible"
Again, you read too much into what I write. I was not stating what many Christians believe.
..."interesting in how you "know" this."
Going by what I've read of the Bible (almost all of it, though it's been a while), I do not remeber reading in every book where the author states something to the effect that, "God is speaking to me as I write this", or "By the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit do I write this" (though I agree that some books do have this). That was my point; that there is no evidence that all of the authors were so inspired. Thus, it takes faith for an individual to believe that all of the books of the Bible were inspired by God.
Note the word `all'. It is crucial to my point.
"Your unbelief hardly makes it a "fact that is readily verifiable.""
"it [the Bible] is the word of many, many different humans"
Tell me which part of that statement is false.
all believed they were writing in accordance with God's will"
Not a fact.
"The Bible is not the word of God;"
Ahhh, the clincher. This is a fact. If the AC would have said, The Bible is not the interpreted word of God, then I would agree with you.
"But I'm boggled trying to imagine how I could prove that God didn't speak to John on the Isle of Patmos when he wrote down his vision."
Does John say, "God spoke to me", or "Thus spoke God"?
I am truly trying not to flame here. But I believe that to get at facts(what?) facts(what?) facts, one must remove what a group of people believes to be true. If you take all of my statements at face value, they are, in fact, well, facts.
"If it's such an article of faith, why do you state the negative as such a fact?"
Because, I presume, it is a fact.
In the literal sense, the Bible is not the Word of God. God did not himself write it. God did not dictate all of the books to whomever wrote them.
Since the books were written physically by humans, and these humans believed that they were writing in accordance with God's Will, and none of them are around today to ask about the subject, it follows that to beleve that the authors were led by God to pen those words requires faith.
The above poster was simply stating a fact that is readily verifiable, as opposed to a fact that requires faith that the AC may not have (or want, for that matter).
"And NT? The F-4 Phantom. The gun used to ship separately, and it is living proof that, with a big enough engine, even a rock can fly."
Actually, I would have to compare NT to an F-102 Starfighter. Yeah, it did Mach 2+, but it also took half a state to turn around. The F-18 doesn't go quite as fast, but it's exponentially nimbler...
Reguarding the isolationist thing, remember what 'ol George Washington had to say? He wanted to keep this country seperate from the rest of the world. He wanted foreign policy to consist of `We have no foreign policy'. I agree with your thoughts; we are gradually becoming more isolationist. And I for one, think that's a Good Thing.
Slashdot Mirror
They did after they changed the name.
IIRC, it translated as `Goes well'. Don't remember what it was in spanish, though...
Jedi Hacker (Apprentice) and Code Poet
"Has anyone who uses the above argument ever gone dumpster diving for CC numbers?"
:-)
:-p
Yup.
"f Sears throws all their receipts through a shredder, are you really going to be able to sift through that mess and find one good number?"
Having worked at a mall before, I can assure you that most places (not all) do very little in the interest of CC security. None (that I saw) even owned a shredder, much less used one.
As an example, the place where I worked threw the carbons out with the trash. The trash went into the dumpster. Within the span of ten minutes, I promise I could dig up 50+ CC numbers out of one bag of trash. (if I could stand the smell
And it's worse during the holidays.
Jedi Hacker (Apprentice) and Code Poet
Good point. However, I think that security may need to be a bit draconian (though the `flogging' example may be a bit much ;-)
Going from a shop that has little security (like mine (sigh)) to one with good security will be a bit harsh. However, that's a Good Thing(tm).
I would guess you live at or close to Stanford. Question: do you lock your doors at night? When you leave, maybe? Always? Maybe you or your household had to be bugalurized once or twice before you did that. See the parallel (tenuous, I know)?
My point is that security is more than passwords. It is, truly, social engineering. People may pick passwords that are `dead easy' to guess, but if the IS department is expecting that, then it only takes one or two deletions of imperitive project software (with apropos backups, to be sure) for the (l)user to catch on.
Eventually, the easy passwords will pass and the user, understanding the consequense on having stupid-type security, will embrace passwords like 1guYbv%^&bbejkkc.
Jedi Hacker (Apprentice) and Code Poet
Actually, I'd believe that the scripting is a bit screwy. Note that there aren't always neato little quotes at the bottom of pages anymore. I think Rob's trying to tweak the M2 stuff. Used to be, I would M2 twice and get a point in karma. Now I think it's ten, but I have no proof.
Anyone know anymore (Rob, feel free to respond, here)??
Jedi Hacker (Apprentice) and Code Poet
http://www.slashdot.org/hof.shtml
Like this????
Jedi Hacker (Apprentice) and Code Poet
How about something like the Sony minidisc covers? It's a thin plastic cover. Inside the player, the disc slips out of the cover and is read by the laser.
The cover makes labeling really handy....
Jedi Hacker (Apprentice) and Code Poet
"It's so darned general, it almost makes you think it could be a search engine for business related sites"
That's actually a pretty good idea. Run a business directory, list all (or as many as you can) businesses, break 'em down into categories, do reviews, etc. Charge a buck to register as a business and have a subscription-based thing for the customer (two or three bucks for all of the juicy details of all businesses in a certain category), or do a charge-per-look kind of a thing (a quarter per business search).
While I understand that all of the information is already free and readily avaliable to the public, I think people might pay for the convenience of having it all in one place.
The customer is happy because they can dig up dirt on competetors, find the exact, perfect business to suit their needs, and do this faster than going to the BBB with more info than the yellow pages can provide. The business is happy because, hey, cheap advertising.
Would this work, or have I just had too much crack this morning?
Jedi Hacker (Apprentice) and Code Poet
"it is thankfully the constitutional right of the rest of us to openly laugh at and mock you for espousing such extreme views."
It is also our right to educate and to forgive. It is also our right to illustrate ignorance, so that others may not be so blind.
It is also our right to remember that we are all human beings, and that we all fall short at some point.
None (save the Buddah) are enlightened.
Put down the flamethrower, brother.
Jedi Hacker (Apprentice) and Code Poet
I'm terribly sorry that this is your definition of `hippie'. I call myself one with pride.
To me, a hippie is someone who places trust in friends, knows right and wrong, knows how to fight for the former and avoid the latter, and will (generally) do The Right Thing(TM).
I guess hippies grew up a bit after the Seventies (disco; what were we thinking?!?!?) and Eighties (Greed is Good).
Anyhoo, my parents were hippies back in the day, as it were, and I guess I'm loosely following in their footsteps (I'm 22).
How does that adage go? Something about judging a book or something (y'know, I'm too high on pot and flower power to remember (for the humor-impared, that was sarcasm, and it was intended to be nice sarcasm)).
Jedi Hacker (Apprentice) and Code Poet
Ok. Big long reply to several replies again.
:-) Actually, the book that got me into this whole thing was _Run_Silent,_Run_Deep_. Don't know the author, but I read it in sixth grade. Been hooked ever since.
:-)
:-)"
StarFace wrote: "You don't happen to be Tom Clancy incognito?"
I'm not Tom Clancy, but I play him on Slashdot.
craw wrote: " I suggest you read Wenz, Acoustic ambient noise in the ocean: spectra and sources"
I most definantly will. Thanks. BTW, I've never had any formal training for this. I appreciate you pointing out my mistakes.
craw wrote: "IOW, local noise sources will dominate the signal received by the sensor."
By local, do you mean 100 meters? 1,000 meters? 10,000 meters? If passive sonar can be effective at upwards of 50,000 meters (or greater when acoustical conditions are good), then local becomes kinda moot, I would think.
craw wrote: "Your last part of your comment describes flow noise past a solid object. In this case, your model is more appropriate for describing noise at the sensor, not the source."
Ok. However, there will be noise at the source. Analogy time. Let's say that you're in a completely empty warehouse. There is some ambient noise, either from air conditioning, or outside sources, or whatever. While some of the noise will be confused, there will be a fairly constant source of noise. We'll call that flow noise. Now, your friend walks silently up behind you (by silently, I mean that he doesn't make any movement to cause any noise that would be louder than the ambient `flow noise'). You would then notice the person, not because he was making noise, but because he was blocking noise and effectively becoming a hole in the air.
This is my personal experience. I have ultra-hyper sensitive ears. YMMV.
My point is that what you `hear' (or don't hear) is a result of a very slight change in timbre in the general flow noise. Because you hear something slightly different than what you expected to hear, you can detect your friend, even though he has made no noise whatsoever. In other words, he was too quiet.
And, if you took two steps to your left, you could triangulate a bearing because the change in the sound would remain localized to your friend.
Am I making any sense at this point?
SEAL wrote: "You can adjust your buoyancy any way you want. This is done with ballast tanks, of course.[...]Some boats can rapidly cycle water within special tanks. The idea here is to keep the sub level, since it is tough to perfectly adjust the different ballast tanks available on the boat."
Right. However, those adjustments cause...you guessed it: noise. What's a boomer driver's biggest worry? Noise. Since it's easier (and quieter) to maintain depth by going 2 or 3 knots, that's what they'll do.
I guess I should have said, "For all practical purposes, a sub (especially a boomer) will never not move."
Good point.
SEAL wrote: "A missile sub will stop when preparing to launch missiles"
At which point noise is a non-issue (klaxions, tube doors opening, blast of compressed air to shove the missle out of the tube, etc.). But, you are right.
SEAL wrote: "For example when running submerged, you get backpressure on your exhaust due to the water it has to push through (via the snorkel)."
I was under the impression that snorkels were only used when near the surface, when running the diesels for long periods (recharging the battery, reactor maintenace, etc.). When a boat is at (let's say) 100 meters, the exhaust goes out the rear. The exhaust can then act as propellant, and the backpressure is mitigated in the cavitation of the blades.
I might be completely wrong on this, of course.
SEAL wrote: "Oh yeah, and the diesel gives everything on the boat, especially your clothes, a quite unforgettable odor.
Can I assume you've served on a sub?
Jedi Hacker (Apprentice) and Code Poet
I believe you misunderstood...
.dll files from Windows for Workgroups in Win2k. COM, AFAIK, doesn't play well with non-COM code. Ergo, Win2k is going to be a maintenance nightmare.
from the article: "35 million lines of new code in it."
Add that to the 35 million lines of code already in NT, and you've got 70 million lines of code. Even if it is modularized, it's still going to be a cast-iron bitch to manage. And let's say that Win2k includes the OS, IIS, and some management tools, in addition to all of the other things that come with NT.
Everything but the OS ~ 25 Million lines (rampant speculation)
The OS ~ 45 Million lines
I don't know about you, but I'd rather not try to make all of that play nice. And linux is nowhere near that large (for the OS by all of the `Ask Slashdot' definitions of OS).
"It's just not fair to compare that to win2000 which is based upon a very sound component model: COM"
COM is nice and all, but to take full advantage of it, Microsoft would have had to rewrite NT to utilize it. Do you think they did? Not very likely, or else thay would be touting it as a ground-up rewrite, not just as NT 5.0. That would lead me to believe that there is a bunch of old C code stuffed in
"I cannot help but note that a lot of users of the release candidate versions of win2000 are generally happy with it."
I've noticewd this too. Everyone who uses it as a client is really happy with it. Everyone I know who works for Microsoft who uses RC3 (or even RC2) refuses to use it as a server. Why? Unstable. Buggy. Acts really wierd. Unusable as a web server. The list goes on.
Specific example: a friend of mine works for Microsoft. He has eight boxes at home. One is a file server and proxy. That is his NT box (4.0 SP 4.0). He won't use Win2k as the file server. Why? Win2k is not robust enough for use as a file server for a seven node network. Seven nodes. Imagine an enterprise environment.
Ok, time for me to get back on topic. I don't think ESR was spouting FUD. I believe that he was making remarks based on experience, logic, and reasoning. If you have an OS that has 35 million lines of code (NT 4.0) and has stability problems, and you then add an additional 35 million lines of code, and you code the additional bits in a different manner (COM), don't you think that there would be problems?
Just a thought...
Jedi Hacker (Apprentice) and Code Poet
craw wrote: "What are the sources of ambient noise in the oceans?...I'm going to assume that you are talking about high frequency sources, given that you allude to blockage."
Actually, I was referring to flow noise. Flow noise occurs because, well, water flows. When trillions of molecules of water move and tumble and collide, they make noise. Depending on water speed, depth, and temperature, water can have all three frequency ranges...
craw wrote: "However, the propagation paths will be complicated due to the vertical sound speed structure and the variablity of this function. Note that rain and breaking wave sources will be broadly distributed (including those close to the sensor)."
Correct. This is complicated further by the position of the thermoclyne(sp?).
When water is of two contrasting temperatures, the cold water will sink and slow down. It forms a fairly flat `layer'. On top of this is the warmer water. Water on top of the layer tends to move faster and have more variety of currents. Therefore, detecting sound below the layer from above the layer is more difficult than detecting sound above the layer from below the layer. Since the layer sits at between 200 and 600 feet, it's easy to stay underneath it.
Now, if I'm 100 feet below the layer, and the Typhoon is 100 feet above the layer, and the chop is about 20 feet (think mid-Atlantic in fall), I will probably have a difficult time hearing her.
If the chop is closer to 5 feet, however, and all other factors are equal, I should be able to hear the Typhoon if I'm +- 3 degrees to either side of her (like this:
Below the layer, these factors are mitigated.
craw wrote: "If you are talking about low frequency signals, then the dominant source is shipping, earthquakes, and whales."
And flow noise (below the layer). Remember that the currents under the layer run at about 3 to 6 knots. These currents are not nearly as fickle as the currents above the layer, therefore, we can depend on them (a bit more).
craw wrote: "If natural fluctuation occur, then how do you differentiate betweeen natural fluctuations and the "silence" of a sub?"
If the current is coming from the East, and there's a Typhoon to my East, then depending upon the difference between our respective `altitude' (can't remamber the proper word) and distance between us, I may be able to detect her, either from an absence of flow noise, or because of a variance in what I'm expecting to hear. The point is that I should hear x amount of y different types of noise. If x is ever more than a standard deviation off, I have cause to investigate. More on this later.
Ozwald wrote: "When moving air hits a round object (or an object boing through air), it tries to go around and continue on its original path."
But is does not do this perfectly. See below...
Ozwald wrote: "Ever drive down a highway at 100 km/hour behind a truck/trailer? Being directly behind one causes your car to bounce side to side from the truck's turbulance until you finally get atleast beside the cab of the truck."
You have proven one of my points for me. (Keep in mind that Typhoons can't (and wouldn't) go 100 kph) Ok, when you're behind that semi, everything concerning the air is totally different than it would be if you were not behind that semi. Because it is there, and because it is causing a disturbance several meters behind itself (you don't tailgate, right
Another point: have you ever sat in the back of a pickup? If it's going slow, the air is calmer right next to the cab than it is by the tailgate (it's much easier to light a cigarette there). If you're looking for a sub that's going reeeeeealy slow (as boomers are want to do), they will leave `holes' in the water at those speeds. How big a hole is a function of the speed of the boat (I wish I could remember my trig - all two weeks of it before I dropped out. Thought I forgot, didn't you?).
Diagram:
***************************
***************************
************.**************
**********...**************
*******...../\*************
******.....|T |************
******.....|Y |************
******.....|P |************
******.....|H |************
******.....|O |************
******.....|O |************
******.....|N |************
******.....|__|************
******.........************
********......*************
**********..***************
***************************
Legend:
* = Flow Noise
. = Hole in the Water (quiet water)
Because of this hole in the water, the noise that reaches the sonar will be different for roughly that shape (as in the diagram above) for a certain distance at a certain speed yadda yadda ad nauseum.
Ozwald wrote: "A aerodynamic object like a plane, submarine, trout, etc. are designed not to cause turbulance from movement alone,"
Number one: They may not be designed to, but they do. Remeber that air is a liquid too, for the purpose of this exercise. Liquids have this nasty property called adhesion. Because all of the molecules of (water|air) are togeter in a finite space, moving one molecule will case it's neighbors to move. This is called drag. For a better explination of why this is a problem and possible solutions (for aircraft, anyway), look up the Laminar Flow wing here and here).
Ozwald wrote: "but it is impossible not to if it is maintaining a speed or accelerating."
Subs have to move. Kinda like sharks. Well, they dont have to, but they need to. Why? Three reasons (off the top of my head):
Therefore: Subs will never not move. Boomers will usually hold a really slow speed, but it's constant. Laminar flow problems and adhesion cause disturbances in the water, especially under the layer. And a really good sonarman can detect these disturbances.
*whew* I'm done now...
Jedi Hacker (Apprentice) and Code Poet
You've obviously done this before :-)
Here's more thoughts:
Maybe nukes would be good. Think Maskrovia in _Red_Storm_Rising_ You set off your nukes at very discreet, tactical targets. Make sure, however, to nuke one large city in a very messy way. The US responds, and you make sure that, while some of your cities are being taken out, you nuke, say, Kiev. Now the Russians are in on it, and you have support.
Of course, this scenario ignores the fact that your country is a glowing hole in the ground...
My other thought revolves around guerrela warfare. If you get enough nationals in the country in the 6-12 months prior to commencement of hostilities, you may be able to set up enough of an infrastructure to paralyze the US for 72 hours. That would be more than enough to push to Washington and sue for peace (following your "East-Coast Scenario").
Jedi Hacker (Apprentice) and Code Poet
"the typhoon is huge"
Right. The largest military sub to see active duty.
"it is nuclear powered rather than desal (sp) powered"
Wrong. The Typhoon boats are nuclear, diesel, and battery powered. Why do you think they were so darned big? The reactor put out enough juice for a city. If that failed, there were two mammoth diesel engines. By mammoth, I mean 12'x10'x6', 10,000+ hp, and enough tourque to drive the boat through the water at 20 knots. Should those fail, there were two large banks of dry cell batteries on either bow. The batteries served three purposes:
"I don't think the largest sub in the world is more silent than the water around it."
Wrong. Here's an example: Let's say that there is a skyscraper in the middle of a field (just follow me on this). Now let's say that the wind is blowing out of the North. Let's also say that you are blind, and walking past the south side of the building (going East to West). There will be a point when the building will start to block out the wind. Logic will tell you that it's no longer windy, and it's also very quiet. You may then deduce that there is a building to your right. Here's a diagram:
**********************
**********************
.........--------*****
.........||||||||*****
.........||||||||*****
....o....||||||||*****
.........||||||||*****
.........||||||||*****
.........--------*****
**********************
**********************
Legend:
* = wind;
-,| = building;
o = you;
. = calm air;
Now, relate that to being in a sub. Since there is always ambient noise in the ocean, the trick is to find someplace where there isn't enough noise. That'll be a Typhoon (or maybe a Charlie) with her plant cut way back. If you know where you are and how fast you're going, you can figure a bearing on the Typhoon. Once you have that, you can use basic trig to figure out range, speed, and mark, in that order. After that, it's simple to sneak up and fire your torps and get back out.
zantispam (who gets waaaaaaaay to into this stuff)
Jedi Hacker (Apprentice) and Code Poet
Actually, I seem to recall seeing the counter be greater than 1. Before Rob got the new servers, there were days that it would be 2, 3, 4, or even 5. I never saw it larger than 5, though.
I had always assumed it to be current users (or current instances of root). This conclusion came from the fact that the more other people posted (Hemos, Cliff, Robin, et al), the higher the number was...
'Course, I too, could be full of it...
Jedi Hacker (Apprentice) and Code Poet
And the number of credits you start out with will be proportional to your Slashdot karma...
Jedi Hacker (Apprentice) and Code Poet
...We ask. Usually the topic will come up with coworkers over breaks (smoke, coffee, beating, whatever). Granted it is against company policy to discuss these things, but people are such that the topic does come up.
Usually it's something like:
--Man, they don't pay me enough for this sh*t.
--Don't worry. I probably make less than you anyway.
--How much less?
And there you are. You can either talk about it or not. Even if you don't say, "I make X per hour" or "I make X per year", saying "I bring home around 15% more than Joe" who everyone knows makes roughly 60k, is enough to get a good idea of who makes what. All it takes is one person's salary to use as a baseline and you can pretty much figure it out by percentages...
Jedi Hacker (Apprentice) and Code Poet
It is the <tt> tag. View the source and see that Mr. Brown used this tag.
As an example, I'm using them right now.
Jedi Hacker (Apprentice) and Code Poet
I assume you looked at Squid. I may be totally wrong about this here, but here goes (Disclaimer:I have no experience doing this myself. This is my experience seeing other people doing this.)
.doc attachments go here, .exe attachments go | /dev/null, etc. Hope this helps...
I have a friend who is an admin who runs squid to do this very thing (sort of). Here's the deal: he runs squid on a box in front of the mail box. Since squid is a cache proxy, you can (and do) look at everything that passes through it. The mail is directed to the squid box. A few lines of perl look for attachments on the mail. If yes: delete/run as guest/send back/whatever; if no: put in the queue. The mailbox (the one that all of the users get their mail from) runs fetchmail. It wakes up periodically, looks in the queue, and pulls over any new mail. IIRC, you can set it up to deposit the mail on an NT box (if needed) so you can run Norton (or whatever). In this way, the mail is disinfected, the users run Win9X, you run *nix, and everyone is happy.
If you like, you can also use perl to pre-sort and filter the incoming mail:
Jedi Hacker (Apprentice) and Code Poet
Are you sure it's not a tyop?
;-)
(with apologies to whomever did Transmeta's homepage
Score:-1 Stupid
"as Christians do not generally mean that they believe God picked up a pen and wrote out the Bible in KJV English when they say that the Bible is the "word of God.""
..."interesting in how you "know" this."
I understand that. My point was not to point out what most Christians generally believe. I was merely stating that, IIRC, the only thing that God did write were the Ten Commandments. Him, Himself, with His hand. He didn't write the books that became the Bible.
"It happens to be precisely what many Christians believe about the origin of the books of the Bible"
Again, you read too much into what I write. I was not stating what many Christians believe.
Going by what I've read of the Bible (almost all of it, though it's been a while), I do not remeber reading in every book where the author states something to the effect that, "God is speaking to me as I write this", or "By the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit do I write this" (though I agree that some books do have this). That was my point; that there is no evidence that all of the authors were so inspired. Thus, it takes faith for an individual to believe that all of the books of the Bible were inspired by God.
Note the word `all'. It is crucial to my point.
"Your unbelief hardly makes it a "fact that is readily verifiable.""
"it [the Bible] is the word of many, many different humans"
Tell me which part of that statement is false.
all believed they were writing in accordance with God's will"
Not a fact.
"The Bible is not the word of God;"
Ahhh, the clincher. This is a fact. If the AC would have said, The Bible is not the interpreted word of God, then I would agree with you.
"But I'm boggled trying to imagine how I could prove that God didn't speak to John on the Isle of Patmos when he wrote down his vision."
Does John say, "God spoke to me", or "Thus spoke God"?
I am truly trying not to flame here. But I believe that to get at facts(what?) facts(what?) facts, one must remove what a group of people believes to be true. If you take all of my statements at face value, they are, in fact, well, facts.
"If it's such an article of faith, why do you state the negative as such a fact?"
Because, I presume, it is a fact.
In the literal sense, the Bible is not the Word of God. God did not himself write it. God did not dictate all of the books to whomever wrote them.
Since the books were written physically by humans, and these humans believed that they were writing in accordance with God's Will, and none of them are around today to ask about the subject, it follows that to beleve that the authors were led by God to pen those words requires faith.
The above poster was simply stating a fact that is readily verifiable, as opposed to a fact that requires faith that the AC may not have (or want, for that matter).
"name a web browser that doesn't work right out of the box"
Mozilla.
(with apologies to the Mozilla crew. It is really coming along nicely and I hope to be using it within six months. Go Mozilla!)
"And NT? The F-4 Phantom. The gun used to ship separately, and it is living proof that, with a big enough engine, even a rock can fly."
Actually, I would have to compare NT to an F-102 Starfighter. Yeah, it did Mach 2+, but it also took half a state to turn around. The F-18 doesn't go quite as fast, but it's exponentially nimbler...
Reguarding the isolationist thing, remember what 'ol George Washington had to say? He wanted to keep this country seperate from the rest of the world. He wanted foreign policy to consist of `We have no foreign policy'. I agree with your thoughts; we are gradually becoming more isolationist. And I for one, think that's a Good Thing.