Slashdot Mirror
'Electrohippies' Protest WTO
creativemeans writes "Yahoo! is running a story on electro hippies plotting to sabotage the WTO.
Actually I'm just curious if anybody has a link to the electrohippie site. The idea is pretty revolutionary I guess, but I've considered the Internet the battle ground for freedom for a long time already. Maybe the next century will be like the 60s, but nobody will replace Jimi." Update by RM: Slur was the first to send in the electrohippies URL. Thanks!
The 60's represent something that you could not possibly understand unless you were there
Stop trying to be a smartie.
what constitutes an "electro hippie"?
- Too lazy to register...
The thing about the WTO and similar organisations is the pathological secrecy that they operate under.
Rather than close down the limited information flow it would be better to distribute the sub rosa stuff that they keep secret. The McLibel sites are a good example of this working (to some extent at least).
They're at: http://www.gn.apc.org/pmhp/ehippies/
Must have been a Hippy sect that didn't catch on...
Robin Miller =/= Rob Malda, wiseguy.
"If you remember the '60s, you obviously weren't there"
Lets see...
It represented a bunch of middle class white kids taking drugs and "rebelling" that led to the diseffective marriges that screwed over alot of the kids that are now in thier 20s and early 30s.
The 60s bah. Only good thing to come out of the 60s were the Internet and the spacerace.
Although I'm not as paranoid about the WTO meeting as others are I do think many countries will try to hurt the US in the technology sector. They always do, after all the has become WTO more about the little guys banding together against the more powerful countries for the sake of trade (unofficially of course), and the bigger countries take part because they're scared about the little guys cutting off the flow of cheap labor. The big guys I'm talking about are the EU, Japan and the US. Everyone has something to gain if the US's technology exports are limited, except the US of course. The US may go along with it because we can't stand to not get our Nikes from Taiwan at $1.50 a pair. Remember, the US has delegates there too. Some of them even try to protect US industries. (those that don't get campaign money from china, that is)
The biggest problem the US has at this meeting is over that of intellectual property. Over the last 30 years or so the US has become less of the industrial powerhouse it once was, relying more on sales of ideas. Or at least improved copies of things. The problem there is that the WTO hasn't really dealt with this yet (as much as they should at least) and the little guys find it as another way to get what they want from the big guys... mainly the US. The EU and Japan are against the US here too, because their tech industries would like a shove right now.
Some delegates to the WTO want incredibly broad rights to intellectual property. Of course they do, patents = money. Who doesn't want money?
-----
Do you even know anything about perl? -- AC Replying to Tom Christiansen post.
Notice that some groups are trying to get the WTO to create laws to force everyone to adopt that group's favorite solution (save/eat the whales,stop/encourage solar/coal/wind/nuclear power, stop/require slave/free labor...). The WTO is supposed to be about Trade not social programs.
Yngwie Malmsteen has already replaced Jimi...
http://www.gn.apc.org/pmhp/ehippies/
Maybe I'm "too young to understand" (I'm right on the cusp, being 35), but why would anyone want to identify themselves as a hippie? To me, a hippie represents self-indulgent destructiveness. We're still suffering the damage that was caused by these self-titled "free thinkers". Not to say that everything that came out of the 60-70s was bad, but the "hippies" had very little to do with the good parts (OK, perhaps much of the music can be credited to hippies).
By calling themselves hippies, is this supposed to create some sort of trust in me? If so, it has utterly failed in my case.
Damn straight.
Hippies can rail all they want about how evil money is, and how evil the freedom of individuals to trade amongst themselves is. Meanwhile, these frigging control freaks speak forked tongue lawyerese instead of plain, simple language...understandable, if your goals are FUD and power over others' lives.
Fuck Slashdot
... the fact that no one has refered to what they are doing (the Virtual Sit-in) as "Slashdot"ing the servers. That would lead to some embarasing explainations.
Why choose white shoes?
http://www.gn.apc.org/pmhp/ehippies/
I don't know which is more depressing, that 2/3 didn't care enough to vote, or that 1/2 of those that did are crazy.
The WTO uses the promise of more trade and the threat of trade sanctions to entice supposedly democratic governments (including ours, here in the USA) to change their laws in ways contrary to the wishes of their citizens. While this is somewhat slimy behaviour, the protesters here at Seattle are in the wrong place to do anything about it. It is the responsibility of the legislature to resist these kinds of enticements, and Washington DC is on the other coast. They should be protesting there, not here. All the WTO's doing here is hammering out a list of guidelines which their member corporations will use to draw up contracts among themselves. I would not like to see the right to peaceably assemble, or the right to draw legally binding contracts, to come under attack, so I have little sympathy for the protesters.
-- Guges --
blah blah blah blah blah
I saw an interesting article recently about a plant used for generations in India as an analgesic. There was some trade in the plant, enough to employ a significant number of people.
An American company (I am not being anti-American here, insert the name of any developed country) had taken the plant, extracted the active ingredient and patented it.
The company had no intention of paying the native Indians, who presumably had prior art and would be made unemployed by the action of the company.
Sure it has a lot to do with intellectual property, but the WTO protests are more about keeping the environmental and labor legislative power out of the hands of the 500 or so global corporations that dominate the international trade scene. Insurrection is the only way to go.
\\ Where's my giant foam cowboy hat and airhorn?
This is a denial of service attack. Plain and simple.
'Duh!', you say, 'and for a good cause.'
I won't debate the merits of the World Trade Organization. That's for you to decide.
I will, however, point out that this is a Really Bad Thing to do. In the good old days, a sit-in only affected the business you were targetting. This affects all of us who use the net.
When colored folks sat down in a diner and refused the leave, the diner was the only business that was affected.
When nutballs (er, concerned citizens) start a denial of service attack against the WTO's web page, that not only affects the WTO but also the usefulness of the entire net.
That is wrong and short sighted. It will also have a meaningless effect on the conference.
The news media love to shoot video of folks standing outside a building with signs. Can you see the nightly news doing a bar graph showing ping times to the WTO web site before, during and after the protest?
I can't.
In the meantime, don't slow down my net connection.
InitZero
To me, a hippie represents self-indulgent destructiveness. We're still suffering the damage that was caused by these self-titled "free thinkers".
Are you referring to the terrible damage the hippies caused in protesting the Vietnam war, applying sufficient political pressur to eventually force the US Government to cut its losses and pull out, thereby ending decades of sensless bloodshed?
Or perhaps you refer to the untold damage the civil rights movement (supported in no small part by these "self indulgent hippies" of yore) has caused this country? Absolutely shameless, to demand that we adhere to the notion that "all men are created equal."
Or is it the ACLU which is the subject of your ire, which owes no small part of its existence and continued support to hippies and aging ex-hippies, among others? Damn liberals, always insisting people have inalienable rights!
Or is it the flooding of the workplace by those uppity women, who have since the sixties been insisting on equal employment opportunities and equivelent pay (which BTW they've yet to recieve)? Damn bitches, taking all those good jobs away from hard working, testosterone driven men!
Perhaps it is free thought itself which offends you most. Goddamn non-conformist long hairs, saying things that contradict my world view and make me feel uncomfortable.
Then of course, there are all those Marijuana Addicts, killing their families with axes! The Menance surrounds us, you might have read about it in the papers.[1]
While it is your constitutional right to adhere to and promote political philosophies that are to the right of Gengis Khan, it is thankfully the constitutional right of the rest of us to openly laugh at and mock you for espousing such extreme views.
[1]Paraphrased from the 1930's propoganda film "Reefer Madness."
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
The World Trade Organisation is getting in the neck simply
because the issue of trade is linked in to so many other
issues. Environmental damage, employee rights, GM food,
food hygiene, all these headline issues are related to
international trade.
People like the electorhippies exist to protest on these
and other similar issues - that's what they're for.
Therefore they will protest whenever and wherever these
issues are relevent _regardless_ of whether their protest
is helping or hindering the resolution of these problems.
They can always claim a moral high groudn for haveing
'done something', however banal that something may have
been.
Surely if the global environment is going to be protected,
the human rights of child labourers in third world countries
are going to be protected, and fair trade and prosperity
encouraged agreements made between the nations involved.
Simply attacking this process is irresponsible and damaging,
to jobs, economies, health, the environment and the
aspirations of the weakest countries in the world. The
alternative is to leave the most powerfull nations, such
as the US and power blocks such as the EU, to carve up
the global economy behind closed doors. Is that realy
prefferable?
This kind of protest is akin to terrorism, it doen't
progress the goals of the perpetrators and in fact galvanises
their opponents to resist legitimate lobbying.
The orriginal post taked about using the net to advance freedom.
What freedom? The freedom to attack our economies, wreck
environmental reform and damage the wider acceptance of human
rights? What about the freedom to trade, to work whenre and for
whom you want to? The freedom to invest in emerging third world
economies and strengthen trade ties between former foes?
Surely communication between the world powers on trade and all
it's related issues shoudl be encouraged and supported. Which
do you prefer, the WTO or the Cold War?
Simon Hibbs
i agree that this probabally wont solve anything because they are protesting to the wrong people. they should maybe protest US government sites instead, after all it is the US government that is abiding by the WTO's guidelines.
:)
however i think this type of protest is a good thing. granted it sucks if you are on the wrong side of the stick, but it does intice companies/organizations to act ethically otherwise the majority of people out there will slashdot your web page.
"The importance of using technology in the right way has never been more clear."
Send in the Hells Angels for security. Hippies are associated in popular culture with violence, drugs and criminal activities. They died a horrible death by 1970. Looking at the protestors on TV they look like radical left-wingers -- strung out on too many drugs and with little concept of what they are fighting for. Children of hippies: Yes. Hippies? No way.
I'm terribly sorry that this is your definition of `hippie'. I call myself one with pride.
To me, a hippie is someone who places trust in friends, knows right and wrong, knows how to fight for the former and avoid the latter, and will (generally) do The Right Thing(TM).
I guess hippies grew up a bit after the Seventies (disco; what were we thinking?!?!?) and Eighties (Greed is Good).
Anyhoo, my parents were hippies back in the day, as it were, and I guess I'm loosely following in their footsteps (I'm 22).
How does that adage go? Something about judging a book or something (y'know, I'm too high on pot and flower power to remember (for the humor-impared, that was sarcasm, and it was intended to be nice sarcasm)).
Jedi Hacker (Apprentice) and Code Poet
censorship is a form of noise, which actively seeks to drown out content with silence - Crash Culligan
I tried both Netscape (which gave me same the error message you got) and IE5.0; IE gave me a simple 404 error.
Hopefully the web page went down with Slashdot effect, and not because of police intervention. Then again, with the world becoming the place it is, who knows.........
The Kulturwehrmacht
Finding God in a Dog
1999 - live, CNBC (tv) is running stories about how secure the WTO meetings are. The cool people are dancing for the media and it looks so staged. The reporter spits out bytes on how the entire place is under control of the anti-terrorist cops and that trouble makers are being rounded up before they get too close. Sorry folks, the cops/fbi/other countries cops, are not going to put up with much trouble. Any protest marchers on TV will be staged for the media.
A cyber battle with the WTO is inconsequential (and unhealthy), the cyber cops are there too. -d
What a bunch of morons hippies were. Peace man, like far out dude, we can do with out that bunch of crap. Buncha tree huggin saps.
Unless you're really really rich, and want to get richer. They scare me more than the US government, be cause they have the power to overrule laws of any member country that get in the way of "competition". This includes labar and environmental laws. The web page below has a number of articles on the WTO as well as photos of some of the demonstrations going on. Seattle doesn't look like a happy place at the moment.
b alEcon.htm
http://www.zmag.org/CrisesCurEvts/Globalism/Glo
From The Unbearable Lightness of Being:
Apparently, they're anti-freedom protesters, attempting to block the free flow of information and preserve preferential policies that favor a few special interests...
Not to be to off topic... but who is Jimi ?
*A)bort, R)etry, I)nfluence with large hammer.*
one hand I believe that, in the long run, free trade is a good thing
for all parts of the world, rich and poor alike. An organisation like
the WTO is needed in order to prevent national governments natural
tendencies to succumb to special interest bargaining.
On the other hand I have to say I don't like the WTO's conduct or
the way these treaties are negotiated. The The EU's ban on hormone
treated beef may have been against free trade, but it was undoubtedly
mitivated by a genuine concern for consumers health. The WTO ruling
took no account of this. Similarly the negotiations on the MAI
(mulitlateral agreement on investments) are deeply unopen.
People's fears about the effects of globalisation are real: some
people do lose jobs as a result of cheap imports, and so the arguments
about trade really should be made in the open. Maybe making trade
negotioations more open will slow down the adoption of free trade
measures. Even so, I think it is better than undermining democratic
institutions in the way they do now.
... Not to confuse him with al the other "Yngwie Malmsteen"s in the music Biz...
It's working fine now. It was merely slashdotted.
Go nuts.
The Kulturwehrmacht
Finding God in a Dog
I think we need to get over itand stop arguing about things which happened 30 years ago. This discussion is about the wto and what good, if any, it's doing to our environment and working conditions all over the world. The fact that ONE of the protest groups calls themselves (or is called by Yahoo news) electrohippies isn't really the point. There are probably hundreds of organizations down in Seattle today to protest the wto.
Ah, I see they're claiming that the Internet is a "military experiment" again. Correct me if I'm wrong, but just because the original research was funded by DARPA, this doesn't mean, and never has, that the Internet was developed as a military network. This urban myth has been floating around for decades. DARPA was a civilian agency which just happened to be paid for by the DOD and located in the Pentagon.
This doesn't mean the Internet was, or ever has been, a military network. There have been sections connected to the Internet that were military (the MILNET springs to mind) but the original research was bluesky research of the type that DARPA existed to fund, not in any way aimed at direct military applications. The whole "being able to withstand a nuclear blast" thing is a myth.
I find it hard to take seriously a group that protests against the spreading of disinformation while spreading disinformation itself.
For references, see any half way decent book on the history of the 'net. I think I have my facts right above, but if not, please correct me.
Sounds like you're trying to blame a bunch of screwed up 20-30 year olds on something you're not responsible for (and that, conveniently, they're not responsible for either.)
That's a very 90's way of looking at the problem.
From The Unbearable Lightness of Being:
(I posted this as a reply above but, oops, I think it should be a toplevel comment.)It isn't working now...
--
*Condense fact from the vapor of nuance*
Maybe the protestors are similar to those of the 60's. But if they have their way, we're more likely to see conditions like those in the 30's. It's quite likely that the major cause of the Great Depression was the trade/tariff conflict that preceded it.
If this cyberprotest doesn't manage to shut the website down cold, then whatever OS the site is running on has one hell of an anecdote.....
Maybe if we can get the electrohippies to code a Linux test site for us, we can use this same approach to simulate heavy Web traffic on, say, a Red Hat box with the new 2.4 kernel....
The Kulturwehrmacht
Finding God in a Dog
No music beats listening to Yngwie *J* Malmsteen
and Jens Johansson playing together (plus Anders
Johansson on drums..)
Thank god the 60s are over.
did you think about that beofre your wrote it ?
Are you trying to make out like the big guys have something to worry about ?
Im sorry but your comments just reek of arogance.
Technology is so powerfull, it can make a real difference to those that dont have it (e.g. communications), 2 and a half years ago i got told the total international network bandwidth for sri-lanka was 64Kb/s !
And your worried that you might have to pay more for your sneakers?
Yea, like all the little countries gang up and rip the international e-commerce market from the US.
Dont worry mate, im sure you wont be out of pocket.
Meaningless, kind of like "water wants to run downhill" or "genes want to reproduce"?
It's not to be taken literally. If you want to get anal about it, the correct phrase would be "in any given information network, where there are few or no barriers to information flow, information will tend to distribute to the greatest possible extent until demand for that information is satisfied.
Anyways, I much prefer Bruce Sterling's rebuttal: "Information wants you to give me a dollar".
The Kulturwehrmacht
Finding God in a Dog
Hippies, they smell like cheetah and look like Jane!
Follow the money.
Those trust fund kiddies playing rastafarian.
cpeterso
I live in Seattle and there are (according to police estimates on the local news) 3000-6000 protesters downtown. The city expects 50,000 people by weeks end. WAT teams and police in riot gear have blocked the streets near the Seattle Convention Center. They have built barricades using city busses, but protesters have climbed on top of the busses. Many downtown intersections have been "owned" by protesters, too, and traffic is blocked. There have only been a few arrests, but the news estimates that protesters outnumber police 10:1.
cpeterso
The SPD used rubber bullets, tear gas and batons against a peacefull protest. This was an unprovocted attack. The protesters are letting there voices be heard and the Government only wants to silence them. Thees are violations of our basic rights to freedom of assembly and freedom of speech. By noon 50,000 people will be in the streets , We will not be silenced!
- Like "hacker", "nigger", or any other label, the word "hippie" has a wide and varied meaning depending on context, and can be positive or negative.
- While the popular image of hippies as ones who would completely abolish the idea of privately owned property, many have in fact worked within that context of rights, seeking instead to empower individuals despite the various constraints placed upon them by nation-states, corporate entities and thieves, control freaks, etc. not already working for the latter groups: Co-ops, voluntary standards for organic foods, private/local currencies, fighting the War on Some Drugs from the FDA to the CIA, and more.
- As another poster noted, much of the harm done by this sort of thing is in the secrecy. And as Justice Brandeis noted, "a little sunlight is the best disinfectant." They claim we have nothing to hide? Let's make sure their inner workings are given complete public exposure.
The American Indians had a conception of property, just as Richard Stallman does. The difference between them and today's tribe of suits, pinks and lawyer-sharks that seek so much control and deep scrutiny over every last detail of the lives of "the rest of us" is, I think, readily apparent. Frank Zappa 's autobiography, "The Real Frank Zappa Book", noted:Actually, to be slightly closer, I think of Robert Fripp as the Richard Stallman of the music world, and Frank Zappa as its Eric Raymond.
Male, female, any color, yadda -- vive la difference! But despite the value of individuality, let's not lose sight of our essential similarities -- definitely where we should be focusing our attention if we want to improve the way we interact. Life isn't a zero-sum game...or at least, it doesn't have to be.
Peace and prosperity to y'all, in all your honest endeavors.
Fuck Slashdot
Thats like saying Bach and Beethoven are passe
Have you heard Jens Johansson's 10 Seasons cd? It's the most beautiful piano playing I've ever heard in my life...
And Yngwie's Orchestral suite.. both works are pure genious...
Said hippies would probably get a lot more traction by opening sockets and not sending any requests. Somehow I doubt that this is possible in javascript's normal security sandbox.
The TCP sockets available on a machine would probably run out far before the machine had problems serving normal web browser hits.
It would certainly allow those "with slow connections" to have more of an effect.
Finnaly geeks will have a cause that is worth fighting for. Nerds will become rebels, and chicks dig rebels :-)
Do not wright in this space.
From their website it seems that their "virtual sit-in" consists of encouraging people to load the WTO web page and then "stay online as long as possible". Hmmmmmm.... so I load the web page and then....?!?
Perhaps if they encouraged people to switch off caching and reload the page as often as possible they might actually tax the server. Instead there are going to be a lot of wasted compute cycles on the "activists" local machines as they render a static image for hours on end.
This kind of idiocy doesn't exactly lend credibility to whatever their actual arguments are. Just the idea of a "virtual sit-in" seems lame - the ultimate armchair activism - but at least if you're gonna do it, do it right!
Al
As a service to those who are bad at cutting and pasting:
http://www.zmag.org/Cris esCurEvts/Globalism/GlobalEcon.htm
The Kulturwehrmacht
Finding God in a Dog
Well, Fox News is reporting the cops have been using tear gas in places, and there've been more arrests. As you said, things are getting uglier.
Perhaps we should *ahem* slashdot the electrohippie site, since there are many here who don't agree with their actions. Anyone care to make a page with six frames loading and refreshing electrohippie pages?
(Yes I know, two wrongs don't make a right -- this is more hypothetical than a call for action)
ScrO
There are about 3000-6000 protesters in downtown Seattle, but 20,000 more people now at Memorial Stadium for a huge rally and parade. The parade planned for this afternoon expects between 20,000 and 50,000 marchers. My previous comment about "50,000 people by week's end" was wrong. Expect 50,000 people by this afternoon.
More info from Wired: Tear Gas Debuts at WTO.
cpeterso
Um, is there a sit-in counter?
I have a T1 and I'd like to know if there are already hundreds of people doing this, or if the WTO is going to call me tomorrow saying that my IP accounts for 80% of their 100x overloaded web traffic.
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
I don't see how this even comes near the definition of a 'sit-in.' All they're doing is trying their best to crash the WTO web server. Which isn't at all like demanding to be served as much as it is a lot like silencing your opponents.
Lets say the WTO wanted to post something important or *gasp* something critical about eHippies on their page. Too bad, because all these well-meaning brain-donors are busy clogging up the works. This effectivly turns into a free speech issue. The only speech allowed now is eHippies speech.
You'd think hippie liberalism would include such comforts as free speech, but then again the word hippie is synonymous with hypocrisy, now add the 90's marketing catch-letter 'e' and you've got the makings of a brand new 21st century stupidity.
Imagine if this caught on, fundies organizing on-line and jamming talk-origins.org. Anyone seriously thinking of joining this should consider what happens when others try to silence you.
Please jack up the above comment and its predecessor a point or two.... this is a very interesting and relatively-unexplored perspective.
"The idea is pretty revolutionary I guess, but I've considered the Internet the battle ground for freedom for a long time already."
We're going to fight for freedom on the Internet by shutting down web sites we disagree with? I thought we had the FBI to do that for us.
have a close look at all the people who are opposed to the WTO, be they electrohippies,
buchananites, traditional tree hugging hippies, pampered over-paid owners in
protected industries. what they are really against is change. the change that
the net and the communications revolution has brought, is scaring the shit out
of them, because they don't understand it. but rather than try to make sense of
the world as it is becoming, they are dreamily looking back at a happier time when
we could all live together in harmony. and so the wto is evil and is destroying
"our way of life". well bull shit. my taxes are paying to keep farmers in the mid
west on the land just so i can pay more for what they produce than if i bought
stuff grown in south america. the motto of the old order is "what we have, we hold".
the motto that was presented to me as part of my tekkie training is "adapt or die".
free trade (and the wto) is good because it favours the dynamic, adaptive, free.
you give me all the choices and all the information, then i'll decide if i want to
pay more for something manifactured right here, and how much more. how would you
feel if you were only allowed buy computers assembled in oregon and chips made
in san diego. fine you'd think, except you'd still be paying $5000 for a 386.
cloak of invisibility not working, there are squirrels everywhere
According to the AP, the Seattle Police used TearGas on the protesters.
Ehh... just mentioning it.
"Its horrible," said Rincewind.
"I'M INCLINED TO AGREE" said Death.
"I would have thought you'd be all for it!"
"NOT LIKE THIS. THE DEATH OF THE WARRIOR OR THE OLD MAN OR THE LITTLE CHILD, THIS I UNDERSTAND, AND I TAKE AWAY THE PAIN AND END THE SUFFERING. I DO NOT UNDERSTNAND THIS DEATH-OF-THE-MIND".
Paul.
You are lost in a twisty maze of little standards, all different.
Its also censorship. These people are explicitly attempting to prevent others from reading the WTO's point of view because they happen to disagree with it.
When colored folks sat down in a diner and refused the leave, the diner was the only business that was affected.
Also unaffected was the ability of the owner to argue his own case. Here, however, the aim is to deny the WTO its ability to speak.
Paul.
You are lost in a twisty maze of little standards, all different.
This has got to be the most low tech, stupid DoS I have ever heard of. ... from the electohippies webpage
"To take part in the sit-in all you have to do is load the appropriate web page and leave you computer online for a period of time; the longer the better!"
Ok so your going to the load the web page into your browser once and sit there, wow that does a lot. Sending one request to a server won't do anything, unless the server dynamically updates itself (which as far as I can tell the WTO's page dosen't).
These guys are so dumb that it makes me want to do a SYN flood on their webserver.
Which brings up an interesting point is a DoS illegal? I know actully breaking into a system is, but is a DoS illegal? And if it is what separates a SYN flood DoS from a bunch of idiots opening a webpage in their browser, or from the slashdot effect for that matter?
It gets even better. Apparently the police are now also using rubber bullets. To quote the report from ZNet:
The Kulturwehrmacht
Finding God in a Dog
Let me tell you something about hippies:
I am 18 years old. Im not a hippie. i don't buy in to the BS about the romanticism of the 60's. I know i wasn't there, my mom wasn't even there, but this whole idea of "hippies" in the 90's is really stupid. This is a stupid idea. A DOS attack is illegal. Ask anyone in #zt. And these people aren't hippies.
Sex, drugs, and rock and roll! Tell me where internet fits into that. This is just advertisement by name association. Put the word "hippie" here and people will think its "cute" and "retro" Hippies to me seem the kind of people who go backpacking and pick flowers, not write java web pages to do DOS attacks for their own personal benifit.
As for real hippies, sex drugs and rock and roll is now safe sex, no drugs, and hell, rock is as commercial as it gets now. These people went from free love to abstenince and from "do your own thing" to "just say no!". They've sold out.
So don't clutter up my screen with 60's romanticism and internet in the same sentance. So, if you want to be a hippie, go hug a tree, and if you want to attack the WTO, bomb the building, but get out of the way of us who have grown up.
Even if we are younger.
~Zero
sig?
Uhhhh...that's what they're doing. If you would have acutally looked at the page, you would have seen it reloads 12 different pages within frames over and over.
Zonker Harris "There is not, nor ought there be, any food more exalted on the face of god's grey earth, than that
Remember the Mothers of Invention? Frank Zappa noticed- and produced a lot of music to try (and fail) to shake up a lot of people who, quote, "mindlessly accepted everything they were given, without questioning it". That was the hippies, to Zappa.
Woodstock was paid for entirely by John Roberts. Remember that name, or Joel Rosenman's? John Roberts financed the whole festival, having been conned to believe it was a moneymaking venture, originally put forth as a 'press party' for a recording studio to be built. Roberts pretty well had a breakdown while the festival was happening- left totally responsible, far in debt, being asked to sign checks for which there was no money anymore, Roberts and a few other people took the whole load of the Woodstock Festival upon themselves, a festival that was declared free after it had already eaten through Roberts' entire inheritance.
The whole hippie concept is a story of rip-off, stealing, lying, and destruction, painted to appear as virtue and freedom. Virtually nothing was accomplished- the end of the war in Vietnam, for instance, owes much more to the fact that eventually Middle America was sick of it and wanted it stopped, and to Nixon's bid for re-election.
Having hippie idealism on the Net is a bad thing. It's spelled out quite obviously: "Let's march on Website X and stomp it with DOS attacks!". No thought is given to other services that may be hosted on that computer, no interest is taken in the additional load produced by X many lusers running a Javascript program and monopolizing all the network links to the target. The idea of responsibility is seriously lacking here.
It's like a riot in cyberspace: riots were seen as civil disobedience in the 60s. My generation saw them more clearly: "Tomorrow you're homeless- tonight it's a gas" -The Dead Kennedys
Rioting is not freedom. Rioting is collectively throwing a fit. If you want civil disobedience, "smash the right windows" (Lee Felsenstein)- get smart, intrude, change their web page, don't just riot in the cyberstreet smashing everything. Stupidity is not insulation, it will not protect you.
If you want FREEDOM, then write fscking software! This is the most annoying aspect of all this. DOSing a site that happens to contain something you don't like is freedom? Write software, GPL it (or BSD license it depending on if you don't want to _enforce_ the availability of the code), put it out there. That does more for freedom than any twelve hippie web pages. If you are a blackhat at heart, learn how to pull off intrusions into whatever's out there, get good at the surgical strike, be smart enough to spare the environment you're in while punishing your enemies. That's harder, of course: a lot harder, in fact. But there's no excuse for the hippie approach. It's a disaster, a mess! Fight smart or go do bong hits, if you can't get a clue then get out of the way.
Otherwise you might well find that the GenXers (_my_ generation, thank you) have very much their own opinions on what activism is. You might find that they take a dim view of mindless destroying to prove some vague point. You might find some GenXer who's done his or her homework sneaking onto your precious target site and setting up some sort of viral attack from Javascript on the site itself- which itself attacks the site, but also whacks all the idiot DoSers in the bargain.
Hippies are the Commodore 64s of making change happen. It's time to move on. It's time to get _serious_. For example, the GNU GPL uses the law and copyright to attack what copyright is _normally_ used for, and Linux takes the GPL and proliferates it wildly- now there is a huge amount of Linux out there, and it's got the legal backing to fight attempts to subvert what it stands for. Now that's change. That's _significant_ and it matters and it's constructive but uncompromising.
Forget the hippie approach. Go with the Linux approach. Build something good and be ready to protect it.
Genious?! You've got to be kidding me... anybody with too much practice could play as cold and fast as him. He may be fast, but his rhythm structures are whacked, they show no understanding of the true nature of the nuances of volume of fluid time structures. Not to mention the fact that using augmented and minor chords over and over doesn't make "classical music". He does nothing more than go thru classical-like progressions with that shred crap. It's embarrasing and quite gay. Besides the lead guitarist from Cannibal Corpse would eat his ass out for breakfast, if you are looking for speed. Putting Malmsteen on the level of Bach or Beethoven is ludicrous. I admit that I find some of their compositions mundane, but at least they evoke some sense of the ephemeral emotions and archetypal scenes that classical music is intended to invoke. Going thru some chords and shredding scales fast, does NOT make you a viable contender in that arena.
Has Mama Cass said anything about freedom lately?
What's the latest word from JFK about equality?
know why? They're ALL DEAD
"lets sell them a fake ideology, clothing fads, musical groups and a phrase book so they can all say only the same 12 catch phrases."
Yes its Hippie time again. Hippies, lets look back at thier legacy.
Free Sex-------Spread of aids and other STDS
Free Thought----Political Correctness and New Speak
Help The Poor---All the Top Hippies sold out or caved in.
Think For Yourself--A blind observence of being the same as every other hippie in thought, action and dress.
Evolve---a 30 year stagnation of mind and body so much so that they take a glee in making thier chidrens children in thier mold and thus not offering them evolution but a hang me down dead end.
So if you calssify yourself as hippie, technohippie or the ilk...welcome to being part of the problem.
Peace Love and Get A Clue
Poor little clams! Snap! Snap! Snap! Poor little clams! Snap! Snap! Snap! Poor little clams! Snap! Snap! Snap!
Hey, bring on the 386's. We can stand a couple less flops in order to prevent this from happening.
I was watching CNN around noon, they had tons of video of the cops beating the people with nightsticks and shooting into the crowed with those rubber bullets. They also showed teargas. And while they are playing the video they have the head of the police on the phone saing how they would not use teargas and rubber bullets.
Then a hour later they stopped playing that video and only played video of them using pepper spray.
hmm...
I have to return some videotapes...
Quoting David Weinberger from http://www.hyperorg.com/current/current.html ************** "60s Recidivism "My teenaged daughter cracked open my old Bob Dylan tapes recently and I found myself listening to "The Ballad of a Thin Man " for the first time in probably two decades. What a great song. Pathetic Mr. Jones meets various Dylanesque freaks who let him know that he's the real freak now so he knows something is happenin' here but he just doesn't know what it is, does he, Mr. Jones? It's a bitter song of victory, rubbing The Man's nose in his loss. But now, it's 30 years since the song was written, and who's Mr. Jones and who's the freak? "Y'know, rock and roll used to be rebellious, not the background music for Chevy ads and elevator rides. Doesn't that make us Mr. Jones? Maybe that's why the Web's biggest enthusiasts and prime movers are aging 60s types. Maybe we see the Web as a way to avoid becoming Mr. Jones, a second chance for the revolution that got co-opted ... that we let get co-opted. "The 60s revolution may have succeeded in small ways but the fundamental fabric of American life is as it always was. We work during the day and play at night. We live in houses and pay mortgages. We do things we don't like to make more money than we need. We all dress pretty much alike. We raise children who think we don't understand them. "The Web is giving us a second chance. It's easy on the Web to say what you want in your own way of saying it. It's easy to be outrageous for the sheer adolescent joy of it. It's easy to start conversations through that literally span the globe and which remove the barriers of race, gender, class ... although speaking English still counts for a lot. The 60s ideals of equality, openness, connection, invention, play all are so easy to accomplish on the Web. "All these things were so hard to accomplish in the 60s whose downfall was, in one sense, reality: you have to eat, your family has to eat, it's just too hard to live out of a back pack for the rest of your life. But the Web is a virtual space, not physical. Reality doesn't impinge upon it. It's a world built of human conversations where many of the 60s ideals can finally be realized . "And, best of all, on the Web, no one knows you're Mr. Jones. ******************* Did you note what he lists as 60s ideals: "equality, openness, connection, invention, play"? Does someone reading this thread have a quarrel with those? The folks who invented the word "hippie" had quarrels with those ideals, and some of those on this thread seem to have been taken in by a cynical buzzword inherited from the commercial media. Try harder.
http://www.indymedia.org/
has lots of video of cops kicking protesters ass's and shooting them at point blank with rubber bullets and teargas guns.
And still CNN and MSNBC isnt showing any of this. And they keep saying that they arnt using rubber bullets.
I have to return some videotapes...
aka http://206.168.174.20/imc/
See the white puffs of tear gas and hear the terrifying pop of plastic bullet guns in RealVideo here.
Did you know that, by the Geneva Convention, it's illegal to use tear gas in war, yet nations are allowed to use it on their own citizens? (And guess which well-known state managed to slip *that* in there...?)
DNA is a Turing machine. You, however, being dynamic and emergent, are not.
It must be a total madhouse in Seattle now. CNN is reporting that the opening ceremonies have been indefinitely postponed due to street protests, but that working sessions of the WTO conference will still be in session.
Police are denying allegations of tear gas or rubber bullets. Meanwhile, some demonstrators are throwing sticks at the police.
However, CNN is saying that the violence is concentrated on one area. Not much word on anything else happening.
You can read the original story on CNN here.The Kulturwehrmacht
Finding God in a Dog
You say:
When colored folks sat down in a diner and refused the leave, the diner was the only business that was affected.
The problem with this scenario that you point out is if the colored folks had been decently served, they would have paid for their food and would have moved on. But the white folks didn't want to treat them like regular citizens and denied them service, hence no food, no pay, and they patiently waited, but were refused service.
So, before you start talking about "colored" folks, I think you need to understand the mechanics of the situation which was an intentional denial of service by "white" folks.
The combined effect of it is a DOS. However my action alone in reloading a page every 2 to 3 seconds is not *in and of itself* an attack.
Its an interesting moral question. In my opinion it falls into the realm of a jury's negation of unjust and immoral law.
The use of child and slave labor by countries in the WTO cannot be ignored.
Oh that's right, I forgot! Hippies invented drugs. There were no drugs in America before the '60s, till those damn hippies started spreading it around.
It looks like the sit-in was a success! it was open before 3pm (PST) today (30th) and after I participated (only about 50 reloads) the site was totally down for at least an hour so far.
NO WTO!!!
"People standing in the middle of the road look like road kill to me." - Linus Torvalds, On Bill Gates
Romanian peasents can't sell their food (all organic because they can't even afford bio-improved seed or modern feed) to the EU because of that oh-so-noble agricultural protectionism. End result? The west either is going to need to send aid, or the racists, the xenophobes, and the communist nostalgics are going to find a hungry, unemployed, humiliated audience for their hate.
This scene gets played out in country after country. The rich subsidize their own agriculture and industry and shut out the poor. Look at what the US does to carribean sugar, look at what the EU does to Balkan agriculture, it's all about the rich not allowing the poor to catch up by honest competition in markets where the rich nations aren't really competitive.
If the WTO goes forward, the multi-nationals will gain benefits, but it's the poor who will finally have a chance to get out from under crippling economic tarrif warfare and gain a respectable, place among the nations.
DB
"The Whole World is Watching" sound familiar to anyone?
According to the local Seattle news, the police have admitted to using tear gas on protesters. Some protesters have created human chains to block I-5 freeway entrances. The 20,000 person AFL-CIO march has been very peaceful, but a group of self-proclaimed anarachists are vandalizing downtown. There are about 30 "anarchists", dressed in black hooded sweatshirts and hiding behind gasmasks, smashing store windows (such as GAP and Starbacks) and spraypainting police cars and news cameras! They don't seem to have a cause or message; they just wanna have fun. One "anarachist" spoke with a news reporter and rambled about the Bush family being Nazis. Do we get to invoke Godwin's Law on these wanna-be anarchists? :-)
cpeterso
Fuck WTO, only EU and US benefit from it will India sell things to US? no so you see what's this all about
I think at this point the police should start sending SWAT to arrest the anarchists. If they complain, the cops can just tell them "We arrested you because we felt like it." No self-respecting anarchist can complain about that...
The Kulturwehrmacht
Finding God in a Dog
Attempting to bring the WTO site(s) to its knees is pretty damn close to the effect of a sit-in. That 'place' becomes inaccessible and unable to carry on normal functions. The critical difference to my eye is that surfers who happen upon the scene are unable to tell why the site is inaccessible. (Besides millions of page views will be served successfully in any case.) The surfing public will only be aware of the protest if it gains media air time, or if the WTO decides to explain service problems.
Another propaganda difference is that coordinating the protest will be even more difficult than is the case with a physical sit-in. At least with a sit-in protesters can be addressed directly and the general demeanor of the protesters can be observed and coached. And if the protesters are faced with police action, they can see it and act accordingly. In this case police action is exceedingly unlikely (against the electro-hippies at least) but if it were to occur the protest leaders might not be aware of it and they'd have a hard time reliably sharing the news with the protesters.
At least the danger of this protest devolving into violence is almost nil. Unlike the other protests on the streets of Seattle.
I'm not the kind to side with the WTO on their policies, but I am astonished that something like this would happen in America. These protesters need to remember that they are guaranteed the right to PEACEFUL assembly, JUST AS THE DELEGATES TO THE WTO ARE. There are better ways to go about making reforms than restricting the rights of others.
Pepper spray 'em all. Respect the rights of others or yours will be taken away.
Scorat.Meth.
I'm sorry but I do. I'm not at all against free trade, but how is doing business with China (slave labor) free trade? And I'm sick of how politicians spout nothing but "business, business, business". How dare we do business with countries like Indonesia, China, or Turkey. Hey I'm a libertarian, but selling away our respect for human life is absolutely unacceptable, and by engaging in trade of any form with governments like these, that proves that we have no other God than money. I just can't do it. I support them, if nothing else they're refusing to go along with what corporate america is telling them to do.
You just gotta draw the line somewhere.
Your collective temper tantrum succeeded, the WTO is no match against your wits.
FIRST POST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This could very well happen now. The Seattle mayor has declared a city-wide state of emergency. The police will enforce a downtown curfew starting at 7:00pm tonight. In case any of you live in Seattle, the curfew area extends from Yesler up to Denny and from I-5 down to the waterfront.
cpeterso
Flamebait??????? How ridiculous!!!!!!
According to local news, 300 armed state troopers will join Seattle's 1,300 police to enforce the curfew. 200 unarmed national guard will arrive at dawn to help police control crowds tomorrow.
cpeterso
It worked here, why ont over there? Once they have $, everything else will fall in place. That is the ideal this coutnry is built on after all, and it did seem to work (for the most part). Don't forget, we had child labor and horrificaly terrible working conditions too not so long ago (early 1900's). Once those countries can shift out of that phase, the other things should work themselves out. Of course don't expect for it to take only a year.
...wish I could attend. We haven't really had a good large protest like this one in a while. And who would have imagined it would have been over human rights and the environment? (I would have thought this only could only come from animal rights, but whatever). Waiting patiently for the riots to begin.
There's reports coming out of the Seattle Independent Media Center that police have fired upon a fleeing crowd of protesters. A lot of the story is probably BS, but what this does indicate is that tensions are rising in Seattle. Joy.
The Kulturwehrmacht
Finding God in a Dog
- Thinks parents are "lusers on both sides": check.
- Listens to Frank Zappa, but doesn't think he's talking about US: check.
- Wants uncompromising change: check.
- Idealistically thinks writing software (or acting locally, thinking globally -- or whatever) will actually do this: check.
Sounds like the 60's to me, and I just want to say: I think that's great.--Seen
"I used to be a dilettante. Then I thought I'd try something else for a while."
Who was it that said it's all bullshit?
Power to the people, right on!
The police have successfully secured downtown Seattle. Unfortunately, the violent crowd of "several hundred" people have not dispersed, they have simply moved. The unruly crowd is now moving into Capitol Hill, a densely populated neighborhood. Unfortunately, I live in Capitol Hill! I am actually kinda scared tongith.. The crowd doesn't look like they are going to leave anytime soon.
:-(
cpeterso
WE WANT THE CURRENT VERSION OF THE SLASHDOT SOURCE CODE!!!
--- Just focus on scrapping Windows, 'kay?
i must state that you are a freaking idiot linux zealot! knock it off already! christ! does every fucking thing on earth have to do with that stupid-ass penguin? get a fucking life already.
please... moderate this into oblivion, but i just had to get that off my chest. anti-hippie, pro-linux rhetoric on the subject of the evils of the WTO and someone who is at least trying to protest (you can't protest the evils of the WTO by writing software for the penguin... sorry) has no place in my tolerance today. there are certain things that go beyond the computer industry, my friends. you might want to go out there and experience some of them. ug...
l8r.
--bc
------------------------------------------
the amazing bc
latin/funk flugelhorn & trumpet
webnaut, music junkie, sysadmin from hell
the amazing bc
just another guy doing IT
webnaut, music junkie, holes-in-head
I hope other electro-activists don't start copying the electro-hippes (what a goofy name. at least it isn't e-hippies). Next week the electro-moral majority will be announcing electro-sit-ins for their least favorite porn sites (I'll bet they hate gay, inter-racial pron the most). Remember the anti-scientology site that was shut down? Maybe its creator will return the favor to L Ron Hubbard (Elron? who cares) by spreading the word about an electrono-sit-in at dianetics.com or whatever they call it. Maybe internet explorer 6.0 will have an automatic netscape sit-in function that is turned on buy defualt( but is easy to turn off). It's not funny. the electronico- sit-in or whatever the hell the ex-hippies call it is akin to book burning. I'm curious to know what the law is in this situation.
This electro-hippy action is nothing more or less than a form of cyber-warfare against some group whose ideas and/or actions do not appeal to you. Is anyone thinking far enough ahead to realize that groups you heavily favor can also be subject to such attacks? Do we really want the net clogged with harrassing traffic every time some group disagrees with another and has a few machine cycles available for virtually attacking their machines? Do we really think creating denial-of-service attacks through overloading web servers does anything good for anybody?
Count me out. This sucks big time and leads to web anarchy at best and serious backlash at worse.
That said, just where do you get off suggesting that _protest_ is going to change this? (I'm not even going to get into 'suggesting that looting Starbucks is going to change this')
I would suggest, in all seriousness, that protest, already meaningless except in a (dangerously open to misinterpretation) publicity sense when used against governments, is totally useless against corporations. Corporations can replace ALL the beef in your supermarket with genetically enhanced hormone pumped beef, by economic leverage. Corporations can make things like this happen and you can't complain to an elected representative as there isn't one, and you can't complain to the corporation even if they are sympathetic because they do not have, shall we say, lots of legal support for going against the interests of the stockholders- I question if the stockholders can even get together and say 'do X, which will cost an extra 2%' and have it override the corporation's obligation to go after that 2%.
So protest becomes irrelevant. I would suggest that you'd better learn to fight, instead. I don't know exactly how this would be done: I don't claim to have all the answers. Possibly IT fighting, cyber-attacking a corporation, would hurt it. Very likely continued physical attacks on the corporate executives would make it difficult for the corporation to conduct its business, though you cannot hurt the corporate entity itself, and anyhow corporations can and do hire bodyguards, chauffeurs who are taught anti-hijacking by Bob Bondurant etc. so a corporate exec is a _tough_ target, as tough as any government official. Finally, the corporation is a creature of law so it can be attacked by law- maybe. The trick is, they are increasingly calling all the shots in the legal sphere- we wouldn't want to have to overthrow the fscking _government_ just to get control of the legal system back. All in all, it's a very nasty puzzle.
I do acknowledge the dangers of the WTO, against which all these groups from Greenpeace to loggers to environmentalists are aligning. I think maybe I consider it more dangerous than you do... but I doubt it is remotely helpful to have sit-ins, or seize Seattle by a _mob_ (a militia, maybe, but a mob??) or to loot Starbucks.
One person running the Electrohippy javascript is not creating a DoS. Thousands together are, in a new electronic form of protest.
People, the transferrence of activist activities to the electronic sphere is something we should be happy about. After sending email to president@whitehouse.gov and feeling like it didn't really matter, it's good to see some opportunities for collective action.
Get your facts straight before you rant.
ScrO
The history of all violent revolutions tells us this unambiguously. Lenin worked in a hospital for orphans for 2 years...but he got angry. It was all downhill fom there. God only knows how the hell well ever be able to change stuff without the energy and visibility of anger...one o fthe tragedies of human history is that almost all revolutionary sentiment has been enslaved by the hatred, anger, and violence it rose up against.
to quote John Lennon "All we need is love..."
The truth is out there - we'll let it back in after it sobers up a bit. -The Cube