Got my new IBM T40 a couple weeks ago. This baby doesnt heat up like my old T21. I had it on my lap for like 4 or 5 hours (also running off battery) with no problems
VI? AN IDE? How in the world can you consider a text editor an IDE? VI and EMACS do not fulfill the requirements of an IDE...
Unfortunately, there have been a lot of posts on this topic confusing TEXT EDITORS with IDEs. If you disagree (anyone that this statement applies to), please try to DEFINE an IDE and then say how your favorite text editor fulfills that criteria.
Re:JBuilder is OK... VAJ sucks!
on
Java IDEs?
·
· Score: 1
Unfortunately, you have experienced what everyone new to VAJ does....
VAJ is not friendly to newcomers and I dont think anyone will debate you on this. What people (included myself) would argue with is whether or not VAJ sucks. The debugging is some of the best I've seen (i.e. changing code at runtime and having it reflected at runtime, pausing/resuming any thread you wish and inspecting it).
I would say to give it another chance; however, IBM is moving towards WebSphere Studio Application Developer (WSAD). I think WSAD helps to alleviate much of the newcomer drawbacks of VAJ. I just hope that it contains the same strength in the debugger.
I guess the only last thing I can think to say is that no product sucks just because you have a hard time figuring it out. You can say that the developers did a crappy job laying things out or documenting their product, but its functionality cannot be equated with its usability. That is like saying that Linux sux because when I installed it the first time, I didn't know what to do at the command prompt after install! hehe.... I think you understand what I am getting at.
I totally agree... I recently installed the a beta of WSAD and it is very very nice. I cannot switch to using a new IDE in the middle of a project, so I will have to wait until I get on my next project to truly try WSAD.....
Yes VAJ is just about dead; however, I predict it will be around for at least another year or two. version 4.0 was just released this past summer and IBM takes a while to completely switch from one IDE to another.
I guess I am up to $0.04 now...
Re:Who needs an IDE?
on
Java IDEs?
·
· Score: 2, Interesting
Who needs one???
Anyone on a large scale project does. Let's throw out some useful buzzwords: distributed, scalable, flexible, etc, etc.
Projects that have those types of requirements and have a lot of developers should be using a good IDE, that contains an excellent debugger. My view is that the debugging feature is what adds the most value to any IDE so long as the IDE does not skimp out on all the basic (and advanced) text editing features.
Just my $0.02
IDE Requirements... VAJ fulfills
on
Java IDEs?
·
· Score: 1
Unfortunately, too many people think a simple text editor with the ability to compile and run code can be considered an IDE. However, that is no where near the truth.
For me (and I think most people) and IDE has certain requirements. Here is my "short list":
- Debugger
- Repository of some sort
- "Hooks" to Version Control
- Some type of GUI builder
- Color highlighting (yeah, this is a text editing thing, but IDE's should not be without this one)
- Auto Formatting of Code
I am most experience with IBM's Visual Age for Java (VAJ), so I will only speak on it. I believe that VAJ goes over and beyond the basic requirements into a top-notch IDE that cannot be ignored. Here are some awesome features of VAJ:
- Changing code while running/debugging and having it reflected during runtime. TOTALLY COOL!
- Being able to pause and resume any thread within the debugger and inspect whatever you want.
- Connections to External Version Control, such as M$'s Visual SourceSafe and Rational's ClearCase. Not sure about CVS and others.
- Plugins... I can run a mini-instance of WebSphere or Tomcat to execute Servlets and JSPs within VAJ's debugger.
I am not going to go on and on about every feature; however, I know it supports all the required IDE features and more. It also is very good at keeping the developer "thinking" in an Object-Oriented fashion by the way it organizes the methods and fields (and allows full Source View too). I personally think the strongest selling point that VAJ has is its debugger. It is so solid and so feature-filled, that it demands respect.
And yes, there are Winblows versions and Linux versions of VAJ.
That's all I wanted to say.... if you reply, please be intelligent. There are too many lame posts nowadays on slashdot.
Yes I do mean the virtual server feature as SMC calls it. I do not think that you have this same router since the latest firmware is 1.3.
Lastly, SMC's tech support has already confirmed the bug.
***** Here is the text of the email I sent to them:
> I have a server running behind the SMC7004ABR firewall with
> a webserver running on
> port 80. When I try to hit the webserver using its
> internal IP from
> another machine behind the firewall, it works;
> however, if I use the
> firewall's IP address, it is not working.
>
> I did configure the virtual sever section to forward
> port 80 requests from
> the router to my real webserver.
>
> Is there something that I am missing?
> Has anyone else reported this sort of problem?
***** Here is their response:
> This is a known issue with "loopback" in the current
> firmware of the ABR.
> This problem will be resolved soon in a future
> firmware. Please check
> our website frequently for an update.
I actually have this same exact router. It has a huge bug, the port forwarding feature does not work. I have contacted tech support and they say that it is a known bug within some loopback function and should be fixed in their next firmware update.
I have also had to reset my router often and tech support has been very unhelpful with this.
If I were you, go with a different brand or build your own. I used to have a linux router, but I wanted to take that functionality off my linux box so I could run other services. It is not like the routing function on the linux box caused a bunch of overhead, but it does have to use the cpu vs. a hardware router which has its own dedicated cpu. That is why I switched.
Basically, read the firmware updates and look at where the bugs have been in all the manufacturers products. I did not do this, but I wish I would have. It would have given me a better idea to the quality of the product.
I can see your point; however, the world will never change unless we get some techies to become managers. I have worked for a few people who truly understand the nature of a software project. There are many managers who think that building software is like buying a piece of hardware or something... They do not understand the intricasies of the design and build process.... However, working for those managers that do understand the process is truly rewarding.
I would assert that if there more techies who did become managers, then our view of managers may change.
In the few jobs I've had (the couple during college, and my current position after graduation), I have noticed that you are more valuable if you can perform multiple roles. The way the economy is going right now, I am sure that most companies (including mine) want people who can adapt to business needs.
I have been considering a MBA lately. I have been thinking that being a techie w/a MBA could open doors in the future that I cannot think of right now, especially if my interests change (which is highly likely, considering I'm only 23). The only thing that is causing me *not* to jump right in and get my MBA is that I am not sure if I want the commitment of work and night school.
Just a FYI.... JSP is not scripting. JSPs are Java... period. They have full access to the Java APIs and are actually Servlets. So JSP, as you would say, "is a programming language and library".
<CODE>This article is written with extremely poor arguments. It seems like a lot of people who responded online, responded favorably. However, most of them said that they could not figure out what was wrong w/JSP but knew something was wrong. This is indicative of a person who does not have a complete understanding of what they are talking about and is looking for "case" to support their assumptions. Let me talk briefly about each point mentioned in the article (I will refrain from quoting content of each point... go read it if you're interested):
<BR>
<BR>"Problem #1: Java Code Too Tempting"
<BR>"JSP makes it tempting to put Java code in the web page, even though that's considered bad design."
<BR>
<BR>Who says it is bad design? This statement of "Java code" is so general it is pathetic. What Sun and most authors state is that putting "business logic" in a web page is bad design. That is a very important distinction, because both authors and Sun do advocate putting "presentation logic" in a web page. That is the entire purpose of JSP. Presentation logic may require Java Code... maybe lots of Java Code. And why is that bad?
<BR>
<BR>"Problem #2: Java Code Required"
<BR>
<BR>Of course it does... read my response to #1. This is the strength of JSP. To be more than a scripting language and have the support of the entire Java API. It can also "hook-up" to other Java services.
<BR><BR>"Problem #3: Simple Tasks are Hard"
<BR>"In JSP the best way to do this is as follows:
<BR><% String title = "The Page Title"; %>
<BR><%@ include file="/header.jsp" %>
<BR>Your content here
<BR><%@ include file="/footer.jsp" %>"
<BR>
<BR>"In WebMacro including headers and footers is done easily:
<BR>#set $title = "The Page Title"
<BR>#parse "header.wm"
<BR>Your content here
<BR>#parse "footer.wm"
<BR>"
<BR>
<BR>Yeah, maybe simple tasks are hard. But I am not familiar with WebMacro, and the example given does not seem so easy! It looks more like the frame of reference of the author. I think the JSP snippet above is simple and understandable.... but that is just my frame of reference. My point is that the author's point is moot. The complaint of having to put semi-colons is almost equivalent of my complaint of the dollar sign before the title variable in WebMacro.
<BR>
<BR>"Problem #4: Lousy Looping"
<BR>"Looping is overly difficult in JSP. Here's the JSP code to iterate over a
<BR>vector of ISP objects printing the name of each.
<BR><%
<BR>Enumeration e = list.elements();
<BR>while (e.hasMoreElements()) {
<BR> out.print("The next name is ");
<BR> out.println(((ISP)e.nextElement()).getName());
<BR> out.print("<br>");
<BR>}
<BR>%>
<BR>"
<BR>
<BR>This problem completely demonstrates the author's understanding of JSP. First of all, the code for looping is just Java. Anyone familiar with Java can code that in a few seconds. Second, the code used to output to the web user is pathetic and old. The whole reason to move from Servlets to JSP for "presentation logic" is to avoid all the out.print() statments. Just the fact that the author used the out.print() statment shows that he is extremely inexperienced with JSPs. Here would be my version:
<BR><%
<BR>Enumeration e = list.elements();
<BR>while (e.hasMoreElements()) {
<BR> %>
<BR> The next name is <%=((ISP)e.nextElement()).getName()%> ;
<BR> <br>
<BR> <%
<BR>}
<BR>%>
<BR>
<BR>"Problem #5: Useless Error Messages"
<BR>
<BR>Yeah, I agree... the error messages could be better. That is simply on compilation and I do not think that ASP offers too much more. One thing that I have found useful is to put the option "keepgenerated" set to true on App Servers. This leaves the intermediate.java file (instead of delete it). Then when you get the error message that tells you the line # in the.java file, you can find it. All the.java file is is a Servlet.
<BR>
<BR>"Problem #6: Need a Compiler"
<BR>
<BR>And? Isn't that obvious. You would need a compilier (or a "sort-of" compiler) for any scripting language... but this is not a scripting language. Yeah, I find it annoying that I need the overhead of an app server jst to run my jsps, but Tomcat is free and pretty good. I have used Weblogic, WebSphere, and Tomcat and they all are very powerful and nice to have. You must remember the scope of JSPs. Although JSPs can be used on small sites, they flex their muscles on large complex sites. Most sites of this nature do not flinch at the fact of needing an industrial strengh app server.
<BR>The problem here, IMHO is that the author is failing to identify the scope of JSPs. It sounds more like ranting and raving.
<BR>
<BR>"Problem #7: Wasted Space"
<BR>
<BR>Give me a break. He is complaining about hard disk space!!! Again, I think he failed to realize and identify the scope of JSPs.
<BR>
<BR>"So is there a place for JSP in the future? Certainly. JSP is entirely
<BR>relevant if what you're trying to do is wean people off of ASP."
<BR>
<BR>If this is the only place that he can find a strength for JSPs, he is completely misguided and inexperienced. I almost find the fact that he is writing this article for servlets.com offensive. I deal with large complex projects everyday. JSP is one of the most viable solutions for many of our clients. This is not just a quick decision either. We go through a lot of design and consideration before arriving at these conclusions.
<BR>A good author would identify and distinguish the differences in uses and compare/contrast a little more responsibly. This author did neither; however, he succeeded in ranting and raving over his opinions based on inexperience giving fuel to people looking for a reason not to like JSPs.
<BR>
<BR>Michael
<BR>
<BR>- The requirements called for Windows 9x or better... so I installed Linux</CODE>
Don't take the subject, "you might be a little confused" the wrong way. I just want to clarify a few things that I think may have been misunderstood.
"I think its much more natural to do things HTML style such as >(sorry, ASP code here) than try to spit out the HTML from inside a DisplayCustomer() function."
"Not possible if everything is inside a system.out.println() or whatever."
Separating of code and HTML does *not* mean that you will be coding out.println() statements from a Servlet or non-jsp code. You must remember that a JSP IS a Servlet. Some authors like to think of them as Servlets "inside-out".
That being said, the MVC and other designs do not dictate that you print the html from a Servlet... taht would be absurd. If you were do that, then you are not using the power of JSPs.
Separating of code and html is simply this (in a very simplified form)...
Code: Put all your business logic and backend connections here.
HTML: Put all your presentation logic here. This does not mean at all that you cannot put jsp code here... even lots of jsp code here. The point is simply that all the code should be related to the presentation and organization of the presentation.
Now I will admit that putting all the business logic and presentation logic in a JSP is much easier on "not-so-complex" sites. My approach above is in respect to more complex sites, which I deal with daily.
So for everyone posting their opinion regarding separation of code and html (or as I would put it, separation of business logic and presentation logic) please distinguish whether you are speaking about complex sites or not-so-complex sites.
Michael
-The requirements called for Windows 9x or better... so I installed Linux
I would have to wholeheartedly agree with this post. I work for a large services company that has probably more Java programmers than Sun Microsystems (You can probably guess which company I am talking about).
On many of our projects, project managers and solution leads have touted the benefits of OOA&D, but then push for a rigid time schedule and do not maintain a disciplined OO approach. This frustrates me and many of the other developers.
However, there are a few projects which have started from the beginning using a rigid methodology. With good architects, I have seen some projects move inception to delivery very quick and smooth... touting all the benefits of OO. I see this as a good thing, and here is why: Many of our clients come hire us to give them additional functionality in their existing application, most of the time this additional functionality is simply expanding their business onto the web. Many of these clients have poor or no frameworks in place, giving way to much redesign and much recoding. These projects that I referenced above that used a rigid methodology have very good frameworks in place will enable our clients to put in place additional functionality in the future with minimal rework.
Right now, I am working on a reusable asset library. These are most written in Java and are (at the risk of using a buzzword) OO. These assets have already been deployed on multiple projects, already realizing a quicker time-to-market.
With all that said, I do not believe that an OO approach is always the best. I do believe that it has its place and I have seen its benefits; however, there have been tasks that I have been assigned that I did not believe OOP was best, so I wrote my stuff in a more procedural manner.
Slashdot Mirror
Got my new IBM T40 a couple weeks ago. This baby doesnt heat up like my old T21. I had it on my lap for like 4 or 5 hours (also running off battery) with no problems
VI? AN IDE? How in the world can you consider a text editor an IDE? VI and EMACS do not fulfill the requirements of an IDE...
Unfortunately, there have been a lot of posts on this topic confusing TEXT EDITORS with IDEs. If you disagree (anyone that this statement applies to), please try to DEFINE an IDE and then say how your favorite text editor fulfills that criteria.
Unfortunately, you have experienced what everyone new to VAJ does....
VAJ is not friendly to newcomers and I dont think anyone will debate you on this. What people (included myself) would argue with is whether or not VAJ sucks. The debugging is some of the best I've seen (i.e. changing code at runtime and having it reflected at runtime, pausing/resuming any thread you wish and inspecting it).
I would say to give it another chance; however, IBM is moving towards WebSphere Studio Application Developer (WSAD). I think WSAD helps to alleviate much of the newcomer drawbacks of VAJ. I just hope that it contains the same strength in the debugger.
I guess the only last thing I can think to say is that no product sucks just because you have a hard time figuring it out. You can say that the developers did a crappy job laying things out or documenting their product, but its functionality cannot be equated with its usability. That is like saying that Linux sux because when I installed it the first time, I didn't know what to do at the command prompt after install! hehe.... I think you understand what I am getting at.
I totally agree... I recently installed the a beta of WSAD and it is very very nice. I cannot switch to using a new IDE in the middle of a project, so I will have to wait until I get on my next project to truly try WSAD.....
Yes VAJ is just about dead; however, I predict it will be around for at least another year or two. version 4.0 was just released this past summer and IBM takes a while to completely switch from one IDE to another.
I guess I am up to $0.04 now...
Who needs one???
Anyone on a large scale project does. Let's throw out some useful buzzwords: distributed, scalable, flexible, etc, etc.
Projects that have those types of requirements and have a lot of developers should be using a good IDE, that contains an excellent debugger. My view is that the debugging feature is what adds the most value to any IDE so long as the IDE does not skimp out on all the basic (and advanced) text editing features.
Just my $0.02
Unfortunately, too many people think a simple text editor with the ability to compile and run code can be considered an IDE. However, that is no where near the truth.
For me (and I think most people) and IDE has certain requirements. Here is my "short list":
- Debugger
- Repository of some sort
- "Hooks" to Version Control
- Some type of GUI builder
- Color highlighting (yeah, this is a text editing thing, but IDE's should not be without this one)
- Auto Formatting of Code
I am most experience with IBM's Visual Age for Java (VAJ), so I will only speak on it. I believe that VAJ goes over and beyond the basic requirements into a top-notch IDE that cannot be ignored. Here are some awesome features of VAJ:
- Changing code while running/debugging and having it reflected during runtime. TOTALLY COOL!
- Being able to pause and resume any thread within the debugger and inspect whatever you want.
- Connections to External Version Control, such as M$'s Visual SourceSafe and Rational's ClearCase. Not sure about CVS and others.
- Plugins... I can run a mini-instance of WebSphere or Tomcat to execute Servlets and JSPs within VAJ's debugger.
I am not going to go on and on about every feature; however, I know it supports all the required IDE features and more. It also is very good at keeping the developer "thinking" in an Object-Oriented fashion by the way it organizes the methods and fields (and allows full Source View too). I personally think the strongest selling point that VAJ has is its debugger. It is so solid and so feature-filled, that it demands respect.
And yes, there are Winblows versions and Linux versions of VAJ.
That's all I wanted to say.... if you reply, please be intelligent. There are too many lame posts nowadays on slashdot.
Yes I do mean the virtual server feature as SMC calls it. I do not think that you have this same router since the latest firmware is 1.3.
Lastly, SMC's tech support has already confirmed the bug.
***** Here is the text of the email I sent to them:
> I have a server running behind the SMC7004ABR firewall with
> a webserver running on
> port 80. When I try to hit the webserver using its
> internal IP from
> another machine behind the firewall, it works;
> however, if I use the
> firewall's IP address, it is not working.
>
> I did configure the virtual sever section to forward
> port 80 requests from
> the router to my real webserver.
>
> Is there something that I am missing?
> Has anyone else reported this sort of problem?
***** Here is their response:
> This is a known issue with "loopback" in the current
> firmware of the ABR.
> This problem will be resolved soon in a future
> firmware. Please check
> our website frequently for an update.
Michael
I actually have this same exact router. It has a huge bug, the port forwarding feature does not work. I have contacted tech support and they say that it is a known bug within some loopback function and should be fixed in their next firmware update.
I have also had to reset my router often and tech support has been very unhelpful with this.
If I were you, go with a different brand or build your own. I used to have a linux router, but I wanted to take that functionality off my linux box so I could run other services. It is not like the routing function on the linux box caused a bunch of overhead, but it does have to use the cpu vs. a hardware router which has its own dedicated cpu. That is why I switched.
Basically, read the firmware updates and look at where the bugs have been in all the manufacturers products. I did not do this, but I wish I would have. It would have given me a better idea to the quality of the product.
Michael
I can see your point; however, the world will never change unless we get some techies to become managers. I have worked for a few people who truly understand the nature of a software project. There are many managers who think that building software is like buying a piece of hardware or something... They do not understand the intricasies of the design and build process.... However, working for those managers that do understand the process is truly rewarding.
I would assert that if there more techies who did become managers, then our view of managers may change.
Just my $0.02...
In the few jobs I've had (the couple during college, and my current position after graduation), I have noticed that you are more valuable if you can perform multiple roles. The way the economy is going right now, I am sure that most companies (including mine) want people who can adapt to business needs.
I have been considering a MBA lately. I have been thinking that being a techie w/a MBA could open doors in the future that I cannot think of right now, especially if my interests change (which is highly likely, considering I'm only 23). The only thing that is causing me *not* to jump right in and get my MBA is that I am not sure if I want the commitment of work and night school.
That's all... just wanted to say that I agreed
Just a FYI.... JSP is not scripting. JSPs are Java... period. They have full access to the Java APIs and are actually Servlets. So JSP, as you would say, "is a programming language and library".
<CODE>This article is written with extremely poor arguments. It seems like a lot of people who responded online, responded favorably. However, most of them said that they could not figure out what was wrong w/JSP but knew something was wrong. This is indicative of a person who does not have a complete understanding of what they are talking about and is looking for "case" to support their assumptions. Let me talk briefly about each point mentioned in the article (I will refrain from quoting content of each point... go read it if you're interested): .java file (instead of delete it). Then when you get the error message that tells you the line # in the .java file, you can find it. All the .java file is is a Servlet.
<BR>
<BR>"Problem #1: Java Code Too Tempting"
<BR>"JSP makes it tempting to put Java code in the web page, even though that's considered bad design."
<BR>
<BR>Who says it is bad design? This statement of "Java code" is so general it is pathetic. What Sun and most authors state is that putting "business logic" in a web page is bad design. That is a very important distinction, because both authors and Sun do advocate putting "presentation logic" in a web page. That is the entire purpose of JSP. Presentation logic may require Java Code... maybe lots of Java Code. And why is that bad?
<BR>
<BR>"Problem #2: Java Code Required"
<BR>
<BR>Of course it does... read my response to #1. This is the strength of JSP. To be more than a scripting language and have the support of the entire Java API. It can also "hook-up" to other Java services.
<BR><BR>"Problem #3: Simple Tasks are Hard"
<BR>"In JSP the best way to do this is as follows:
<BR><% String title = "The Page Title"; %>
<BR><%@ include file="/header.jsp" %>
<BR>Your content here
<BR><%@ include file="/footer.jsp" %>"
<BR>
<BR>"In WebMacro including headers and footers is done easily:
<BR>#set $title = "The Page Title"
<BR>#parse "header.wm"
<BR>Your content here
<BR>#parse "footer.wm"
<BR>"
<BR>
<BR>Yeah, maybe simple tasks are hard. But I am not familiar with WebMacro, and the example given does not seem so easy! It looks more like the frame of reference of the author. I think the JSP snippet above is simple and understandable.... but that is just my frame of reference. My point is that the author's point is moot. The complaint of having to put semi-colons is almost equivalent of my complaint of the dollar sign before the title variable in WebMacro.
<BR>
<BR>"Problem #4: Lousy Looping"
<BR>"Looping is overly difficult in JSP. Here's the JSP code to iterate over a
<BR>vector of ISP objects printing the name of each.
<BR><%
<BR>Enumeration e = list.elements();
<BR>while (e.hasMoreElements()) {
<BR> out.print("The next name is ");
<BR> out.println(((ISP)e.nextElement()).getName());
<BR> out.print("<br>");
<BR>}
<BR>%>
<BR>"
<BR>
<BR>This problem completely demonstrates the author's understanding of JSP. First of all, the code for looping is just Java. Anyone familiar with Java can code that in a few seconds. Second, the code used to output to the web user is pathetic and old. The whole reason to move from Servlets to JSP for "presentation logic" is to avoid all the out.print() statments. Just the fact that the author used the out.print() statment shows that he is extremely inexperienced with JSPs. Here would be my version:
<BR><%
<BR>Enumeration e = list.elements();
<BR>while (e.hasMoreElements()) {
<BR> %>
<BR> The next name is <%=((ISP)e.nextElement()).getName()%> ;
<BR> <br>
<BR> <%
<BR>}
<BR>%>
<BR>
<BR>"Problem #5: Useless Error Messages"
<BR>
<BR>Yeah, I agree... the error messages could be better. That is simply on compilation and I do not think that ASP offers too much more. One thing that I have found useful is to put the option "keepgenerated" set to true on App Servers. This leaves the intermediate
<BR>
<BR>"Problem #6: Need a Compiler"
<BR>
<BR>And? Isn't that obvious. You would need a compilier (or a "sort-of" compiler) for any scripting language... but this is not a scripting language. Yeah, I find it annoying that I need the overhead of an app server jst to run my jsps, but Tomcat is free and pretty good. I have used Weblogic, WebSphere, and Tomcat and they all are very powerful and nice to have. You must remember the scope of JSPs. Although JSPs can be used on small sites, they flex their muscles on large complex sites. Most sites of this nature do not flinch at the fact of needing an industrial strengh app server.
<BR>The problem here, IMHO is that the author is failing to identify the scope of JSPs. It sounds more like ranting and raving.
<BR>
<BR>"Problem #7: Wasted Space"
<BR>
<BR>Give me a break. He is complaining about hard disk space!!! Again, I think he failed to realize and identify the scope of JSPs.
<BR>
<BR>"So is there a place for JSP in the future? Certainly. JSP is entirely
<BR>relevant if what you're trying to do is wean people off of ASP."
<BR>
<BR>If this is the only place that he can find a strength for JSPs, he is completely misguided and inexperienced. I almost find the fact that he is writing this article for servlets.com offensive. I deal with large complex projects everyday. JSP is one of the most viable solutions for many of our clients. This is not just a quick decision either. We go through a lot of design and consideration before arriving at these conclusions.
<BR>A good author would identify and distinguish the differences in uses and compare/contrast a little more responsibly. This author did neither; however, he succeeded in ranting and raving over his opinions based on inexperience giving fuel to people looking for a reason not to like JSPs.
<BR>
<BR>Michael
<BR>
<BR>- The requirements called for Windows 9x or better... so I installed Linux</CODE>
Don't take the subject, "you might be a little confused" the wrong way. I just want to clarify a few things that I think may have been misunderstood.
"I think its much more natural to do things HTML style such as >(sorry, ASP code here) than try to spit out the HTML from inside a DisplayCustomer() function."
"Not possible if everything is inside a system.out.println() or whatever."
Separating of code and HTML does *not* mean that you will be coding out.println() statements from a Servlet or non-jsp code. You must remember that a JSP IS a Servlet. Some authors like to think of them as Servlets "inside-out".
That being said, the MVC and other designs do not dictate that you print the html from a Servlet... taht would be absurd. If you were do that, then you are not using the power of JSPs.
Separating of code and html is simply this (in a very simplified form)...
Code: Put all your business logic and backend connections here.
HTML: Put all your presentation logic here. This does not mean at all that you cannot put jsp code here... even lots of jsp code here. The point is simply that all the code should be related to the presentation and organization of the presentation.
Now I will admit that putting all the business logic and presentation logic in a JSP is much easier on "not-so-complex" sites. My approach above is in respect to more complex sites, which I deal with daily.
So for everyone posting their opinion regarding separation of code and html (or as I would put it, separation of business logic and presentation logic) please distinguish whether you are speaking about complex sites or not-so-complex sites.
Michael
-The requirements called for Windows 9x or better... so I installed Linux
Why? What makes it crap? I am not saying you are wrong or anything, but for the sake of all the readers here, please be a little more specific.
On many of our projects, project managers and solution leads have touted the benefits of OOA&D, but then push for a rigid time schedule and do not maintain a disciplined OO approach. This frustrates me and many of the other developers.
However, there are a few projects which have started from the beginning using a rigid methodology. With good architects, I have seen some projects move inception to delivery very quick and smooth... touting all the benefits of OO. I see this as a good thing, and here is why: Many of our clients come hire us to give them additional functionality in their existing application, most of the time this additional functionality is simply expanding their business onto the web. Many of these clients have poor or no frameworks in place, giving way to much redesign and much recoding. These projects that I referenced above that used a rigid methodology have very good frameworks in place will enable our clients to put in place additional functionality in the future with minimal rework.
Right now, I am working on a reusable asset library. These are most written in Java and are (at the risk of using a buzzword) OO. These assets have already been deployed on multiple projects, already realizing a quicker time-to-market.
With all that said, I do not believe that an OO approach is always the best. I do believe that it has its place and I have seen its benefits; however, there have been tasks that I have been assigned that I did not believe OOP was best, so I wrote my stuff in a more procedural manner.
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