This is my last statement as this converstation is going nowhere. Creationism and Evolution are not mutally exclusive. I am what you would term as a "literal translation" christian, or a more correct term, sola scriptura. To explain what this means is probably beyond you as from what I can tell you are just looking for ways to hate people. We were not even talking about evolution but you kept pushing in that direction because you WANTED to find SOMETHING to hate. Never did I say I was against creationism yet you assumed because that is what YOU wanted to believe because it makes you feel better. You have a rudimentary understanding of christians at best, a scapegoat principle possibly. Hitler did the same thigns to the Jews.
You and I have major fundamental differences and discussing high level things like homosexuality and other social problems will inevitably go nowhere. This is always the case, you and I could never settle our differences on things like abortion, homosexuality, euthenasia, or even creationism because we are fundamentally different. Me, I am a 5 sola person. You probably have no idea of what that is. At best you may look it up looking for a weapon rather than an answers.
But God bless anyway and good luck finding real truth.
What is this inherent hate you show to Christians? Ya we have some wackos but not all Christians reject evolution, nor do all Christians believe in an inerrant bible.
If Paul can "dismiss most all of mosaic law with a few exceptions", then why can't you dismiss all the rest of your medieval hatreds and superstitions about gays and witches? Science has proven them wrong: it's time to throw them out. It isn't me, it is scripture, the NT forbids those things, it isn't me cherrypicking, it is just the way it is presented. If I didn't believe in the inerrant word, ya I could dismiss that stuff because it would be my choice what to believe. There are many denominations that do that.
Why is it so important that you prove me wrong?
Why are you trying to steer the conversation to Ted vs Richard? From the video and posting He seems like a good analytical guy, just doesnt understand scripture well. And therefore uses it to his advantage just as Christians use a poorly understood interp of the bible to beat and kill people.
You know what i think it is? Why you are so angry at Christians? You are afraid we are right, it is your internal struggle to reject God. It is so easy to look at the Christians and their hypocritical lifestyles and forget that maybe, just maybe they are right, but imperfect followers of the True God.
Me personally I think we will find out when we die, God will give us what we want. And that is the horror of it all.
Since you said this twice, and you do not follow the teachings of Christianity (which are the root of why I am against homosexuality). (forgive me for pulling a lot of these stats from memory) you can look them up and prove me wrong. I will also point you to CDC reports, look them up yourself, I am willing to do the footwork if you are lazy. Had to do it before. But look up instances of STDs among couples, MM, MF, and FF. Tell me what they are, I think the rate of MM STD is around 70% of the total.
MM relationships tend to be quick lived 3-5 years if I remember correctly. FF I don't have as much a problem with, they are more likely to be monogamous but also more likely to adopt children. Family counseling services (most of which I know of are Christian so take this with a grain of salt), have argued that a MF relationship is necessary for a balanced youth upbringing. Be it hormonal or what I don't know, maybe we will have to wait until we get more kids with homosexual parents before the stats are accurate.
It isn't how homosexuals affect me personally other than it raises the chances my kids will die early of an STD even if they are not homosexual. It is the affect it has on society as a whole, I admit I would not be so against homosexuals if STDs were not a problem. Then we would just be debating on the psychology of it. Even then as a believer in the inerrant word of God you would have to contend with that.
I have no problem with you calling me Gay, feel free, I am comfortable in my sexuality, My wife would definitely disagree with your sentiment that I am gay, but hey I have nothing to prove to you. You have your biases and beliefs and I cannot change those, only you can.
"in your condemnation of homosexuals, and your rejection of evolution"
Dude, seriously? Where what posts are you reading? 1. Nowhere have we even mentioned evolution, 2. I condemn the homosexual lifestyle, not the homosexual. But to help you out in understanding me rather than lumping me in some Christian Stereotype that you seem to lump all of "us" into. I will mention this. I am a firm believer in evolution, I take issue with some of the theories, but so does most everyone, my wife is a biology professor at a liberal university, but that is another discussion for another day.
Jesus did preach to love everyone, but hate sin. I assume You obviously hate the fact that I am against the homosexual lifestyle, but does that necessarily mean you hate me? I hope not. I have every right to dislike the homosexual lifestyle for religious reasons as I do for health reasons, or you have the right to dislike me for being against the lifestyle.
Let me enlighten you on something else, I can associate homosexuality with whatever I want, I am a human with rights, if I want to say the homosexual lifestyle is a 100% clean and save alternative I can. If I want to say that it is not a clean and safe alternative I can. IF my religion implicitly tells me it is wrong, then it is my right to believe such, just as much as it is your right to believe otherwise and make unfair judgments of someone you have traded a couple posts with on slashdot. Welcome to life, people have different opinions, people have different religions. do I believe I am following the true path? Yes, I do, but that doesn't mean I am going to close my eyes and walk it like many Christians. Do you believe you are following the true path, of course, unless you are in some kind of denial.
In my limited experience I have found that there are certain subjects I cannot convince a non-Christian of. One of these is how to convince an unbeliever of the consequence of homosexuals. Another is to convince a slashdot person that there is universal truth that can be found in Christianity. Because once someone has made up their mind, it takes a special person to change it. I know firsthand.
My question to you would be why do you spend so much time judging us Christians? Does it just make you feel good to yell at someone with convictions because you possibly have none?
So why isn't there a commandment against hypocrisy?
There is quite a bit about hypocracy in the bible:
1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."
Then it quickly follows with "
6"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces."
I will let you in on a little secret, everybody is a hypocrite, it is just easy to prove Christians hypocritical because we wrote down our laws. Atheists get the luxury of defining their own fluid morals so you cant call them a hypocrite.
But also who are you to tell me that I am morally wrong for not accepting the homosexual lifestyle? Or rejecting bestiality, or pedophilia, or incest. To which I get the outcry "Oh those are different, they aren't consenting adults!" well who are you to say who is adult and who isn't? Who are you to say who can love and who cant? I don't draw my lines, I study and listen to Him who I love.
I am a happily married man and yet I reject the homosexual lifestyle and yes I subscribe to the "Love the sinner, hate the sin" mentality. Am I crazy for having a different set of morals than you? Do you think it is easy? Don't you think I wish I could be ok with it? That I could ignore the CDC reports on STDs between male partners?
I would say it is you who are the bigot here. You assume I am a Ted and Mark fan, you assume that because I don't like someone I find a way to label them as sinners. You sir have a lot to learn, I am not angry at you, I just feel pity that you waste so much anger pointing your finger out when you should really take a good look at yourself first, and think, "Do I treat Christians the same way they treat Gays?" Now there you would be hypocritical.
Too bad you posted AC, you probably wont get this. But I will post anyway.
Unless you act on a sin you dont sin. For instance if I am a recovering alcoholic and I don't drink I am fine. But if I go back into drinking I am sinning. Same with homosexuality, you may or may not be predisposed to homosexuality, there is a strong case that can be made that Paul was a homosexual. However if you do not act on it you are ok. Not my words, just what scripture says.
LOL, but in your need to shred labels you just gave another "non-believers" to refer to people who do not believe. Tell ya what, go back to stats class, study ven diagrams, and subsets and then maybe you will understand that classless is a self defeating term. Perhaps now you people will realize that you will always fit into a group. Why people fight it so much is beyond me. Should we Stop referring to Catholics as theists because they never declared them to be? One way or another people are going to group you with someone, and through action or inaction you will be sorted into a group based upon the opinion of someone. Whether it is true or not is another issue, but it is inescapable.
For instance I have to live with the term Religious Right because I am a Christian, did I elect to be a religious right? Does it describe my belief? No but nonetheless that is the group I am termed. Live with it.
As I said in my post, you have to read all of the scripture to understand why somethings a OK now and others are not. It is easy to talk about mixed cloths and convenience being a driving force of mosaic law. Paul dismissed most all of mosaic law with a few exceptions, which I think are referred to laws of the spirit, odd term. But Check 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 if you are really interested. Good thing to note though is that Homosexuality is not a sin, just the offenders are.
You wanna catch these fire and brimstone people, don't fight them with scripture in that regard, you will lose as almost certainly you have not studied it as long as they have. Choose a simpler battle such as, if you hate gays so much, why don't you hate alcoholics, Divorces, and Pedophiles as much?
By using the age old argument of mixed cloth you are just demonstrating one thing, you really don't know scripture that well and will be dismissed as just another disgruntled person biased against the church, therefore it is unlikely that you will be listened to.
Had to say something. At first my jaw dropped at what you said, then I paused and gave it some thought and you are right. I am pro-life from the time the egg implants until the natural death of the human. And I see exactly what you are saying, if someone is to be consistent then what you say, then that is correct. Although babies have been known to be sentient before 11 months. Too bad, I think many people will view your statement the wrong way.
Your question is a Catch-22 as if I say I follow all the teachings blindly, I am ignorant, if I say I cherry-pick, I am a hypocrite using the bible for my own agenda. Instead I will answer your question like this as I think you may honestly want an answer.
One of the major issues with reading the Bible is the Exegesis vs. Isogesis debate. Isogesis is the "cherry pick" method, where you read into scripture whatever you want. You have probably experienced this on slashdot or e-mail many times when you write something and the reader takes it completely out of context. People will believe whatever they WANT to believe. If I read Nietzsche I have to read trying to figure out what he is saying, otherwise I am getting nothing out of it but what i put in. Same with another fav of mine Sun Tzu. You have to read the whole of it, understand the political arrangements and the mindset of the writer at the time.
Isogesis is largely why you see the Biblical Extremists out there with one liners condemning the world. If they would read the whole passage rather than just the one verse, they would see how wrong they are.
Exegesis, on the other hand is taking the whole of scripture and interpreting, scripture winds back on itself a lot. Jesus's last words on the cross were a quote from the OT, which if you are a Jewish scholar means he was referencing the whole section, not just those words. I take this approach, I am not a expert by any means, however, I spend a bit of time asking questions, reading books and trying my best to make a well researched decision on questionable passages. Referencing back, looking to Respected Scholars for help. But always doing my best to understand rather than "blindly following".
Whether you are Gnostic, Athiest, or theistic, Exegesis should be part of you life so that you can understand others and their writing.
I attribute it to science as well. However psychologically we are not doing that well. How do we fix it? The answer depends on your theological preference.
I believe in the separation of Church and State. I do not under any circumstances want to go back to a Theocracy. I may be a strong Christian and believe that the best thing for society is heterosexual marriages. That, however, is a church matter and should be enforced at that level. In fact if one reads the Old Testament, we would find that God did not want a Theocracy, He discouraged Kings and that form of govt. But the Israelites insisted because they wanted to be important like all the other nations. Thus the first king was given reign.
Same goes with gays, no worse than I am as a sinner, just a different sin.
You hit the nail on the head there, problem is, getting people to separate Christianity from Christians.
You must have either been part of a Wisconsin or Missouri Synod.
Now Lutheran practice would remove you from the synod for being unrepentant for any reason. But should not have removed you for being married to a wiccan, if you were a wiccan then they could do it. Just sounds like you were in a very unhealthy church, better to get out of those. You might be much more comfortable in a ELCA Lutheran church if you wanted to stay with Lutherans. They are quite a bit looser in their Church than the other synods, You would absolutely hate Baptist, Catholic, and Pentacostal.
Working off of the fear of hell isnt what should drive you to be moral. Love of your God is. Islam focuses on fear, Christianity, in a well balanced situation, will focus on Love of the Creator and His sacrifice.
If you are going to judge my understanding of the bible that is fine, I am used to Gnostics and Athiests proclaiming how much better they know the Koran, Bible, book of Mormon, than the believers. But to say the Bible tells you to kill sinners is beyond an obtuse misunderstanding. Just as ignorant as saying that all atheists are destroying society for their lack of morals. If this is an example of your understanding of scripture, I suggest you sit down with a theologian, or set aside your biases and really read the whole of the bible. I suggest focusing on the difference between Mosaic Law and Divine Law. Also look into Justification vs Sanctification.
As For How many of the Ten Commandments are actually laws in any modern society? Two, maybe three?
And you think society is doing well now? Check divorce rates, the youth entitlement generations, prevalence of STDs, Breakdown of families, the suicide rate, and on and on. As a Christian I attribute this to original sin. As an Atheist, you can attribute it to societal growing pains.
if you'd actually read your Bible, you would know this.
I never get tired of hearing that though, don't blame you for thinking it as I said before most of my fellow Christians are too busy using the Scripture as a weapon (we call that Isogesis, look it up sometime as 99% of Christians will give you a blank stare). Proper interpretation comes from Exogesis although unless you are taught good Theology you don't know how to do this. People spend their entire lives studying hermeneutics, they were called monks. But this is the reason I attribute most people's hate of the bible to. Interesting point though, the more distant someone is from the Scripture, the more likely they are to be agnostic, or atheist. It is a rare person who regularly reads the Bible with an open mind on a regular basis and rejects it all. Too bad, there is a lot of wisdom in there. Heck I am a Christian and I still see the value to the Koran.
Morality is a natural phenomenon; it arises from the need of humans to live together to survive.
It is called pack theory I think, I read a book on it 5-10 years ago. Might be called Instinct theory, many Academics believe it can naturally account for most all moral compasses, but there are certain traits that cannot be accounted for.
You can call me ignorant or whatever you want but you are just judging me because I dont agree with you.
Interesting indeed. I would assume the Christian in question was referring to some kind of consistent morality. Although most of my fellow Christian are woefully ignorant about their own faith and could not distinguish the difference between Christianity and any other mainstream religion. Chances are someone they respect said the same thing "Atheists have no moral capacity" and thought, hey this person is saying something bad about Atheists, it must be true!
That aside, in my opinion, the atheist moral issue is more of a concern because it allows the scope of human stupidity larger reign. Regardless of whether a person thinks there is a God or not, there is a certain amount of respect to be paid to moral laws that are 8-10K years old. Humanity has learned certain lessons in the past and we need to heed those lessons. Example, even my atheist friends agree, If humanity would be more careful with its sexuality, (be more picky with partners, or abstain to a bonding relationship), we would be able to make STDs a very manageable problem. Many major religions have included abstinence in their moral law.
Now from a Theological standpoint, a Christian should not fear breaking the law because God will smite them. The proper fear comes from the human consequences. Eat Pork in 1500BC and you will have issues, weave different kinds of thread, you will have issues, or the bigger laws, Covet and you will pay $5K for a PS3.
The advantage that a Theistic group has, is it can enforce moral law without explaining it all. But if you delve into each Law it usually has a good, nontheistic, reason for it. The whole Wrath of God idea, just makes it easy to enforce. Whereas an atheist has to rely on his/her own discipline to maintain a moral law. Good luck controlling mass stupidity that way:)
Ahh, you buy used CDs, that requires a bit of intelligence. I personally wont spend more than $8 on any album, maybe if it were vinyl.
The point (although flawed) that I was trying to point out, was that people, especially us americans. Are absolutely moronic when it comes to finances. I mean real idiots.
Americans need that brand new car, when they could get every feature of that new car by buying one 3 years old and saving around $20K. People arent interested in the future, they are interested in the here and now.
And along with getting bragging rights with your PS3, people will pay a premium to sit a couple rows closer in a concert, pay $10 extra to listen to a CD 6 months before it hits the used or online market. In the town I live we have a $2 theater, plays every major movie that comes out, just 6 months or so later, yet everyone still pays 7.5-10 to watch it as it comes out!
The list goes on and on, Name brand clothes rather than going to Target, K-Mart, or another retailer.
But judging from what you just said you are not one of these people, and like me where you will buy the concert tickets because, hey, the experience is awesome. You still have a head to say, $800 for a console? no way. 5K? ludicrous.
Are you an American? Because if you are this wouldn't suprize you. I will assume you live somewhere else so I will give you a list of things that are Guaranteed to depriciate 5-10x in several months that people inluding yourself buy consistently.
New Clothes.
Any produce
CDs
DVDs
Carpet
Paint
Concert Tickets
and on and on. Many Items are considerably more and you get no value back from them other than intangible feelings. (with the exception of Produce and clothes).
But if you dont have time for the link, here they are
LAZINESS: The quality that makes you go to great effort to reduce overall energy expenditure. It makes you write labor-saving programs that other people will find useful, and document what you wrote so you don't have to answer so many questions about it. Hence, the first great virtue of a programmer.
IMPATIENCE: The anger you feel when the computer is being lazy. This makes you write programs that don't just react to your needs, but actually anticipate them. Or at least that pretend to. Hence, the second great virtue of a programmer.
HUBRIS: Excessive pride, the sort of thing Zeus zaps you for. Also the quality that makes you write (and maintain) programs that other people won't want to say bad things about. Hence, the third great virtue of a programmer.
And I dont think the pyramids in Giza were built out of humility:)
Arrogance or Pride refers to a strong sense of self-respect, a refusal to be humiliated as well as joy in the accomplishments of oneself or a person, group, or object that one identifies with. Sometimes a person tries not to be humiliated, and in doing so humiliates themself further (usually people that do this are arrogant). - Wikipedia
My question to you would be why is arrogance a bad thing? Especially when it drives creative ambition many times?
Never underestimate the arrogance of man. Even if we didn't need the tether, we would still create it because we could. So your statement will join a long line of comments through history.
"Yeah - Like China will build a 4000 mile long wall."
"Yeah - We are going to build a tunnel under the English Channel."
"Yeah - We are going to dig a ditch to let boats cross America."
"Yeah - The Egyptians are going to build a gigantic pyramid that will still be standing in 4500 years."
"Yeah - We will propel a highly explosive cargo ship to the moon carrying people."
Ya, I started as a Technician working for the Gov't. Been through 2 major re-orgs in 2.5 years. Just so people could get better salaries. Sure I benefited from it, still am just a tech right now. I may be responsible for all parts of the 60 satellite sites we have, the only tech for 750 employees, the go-to guy for all hardware/software/compatability issues, and all round infrastructure support analyst. But I am a tech, and that is where I like it. However the Gov't re-titles me Information Technology Infrastructure Support Analyst. Couldnt you just say, network Technician? Seriously, the title means nothing to anyone other than Accounting.
Slashdot Mirror
You and I have major fundamental differences and discussing high level things like homosexuality and other social problems will inevitably go nowhere. This is always the case, you and I could never settle our differences on things like abortion, homosexuality, euthenasia, or even creationism because we are fundamentally different. Me, I am a 5 sola person. You probably have no idea of what that is. At best you may look it up looking for a weapon rather than an answers.
But God bless anyway and good luck finding real truth.
If Paul can "dismiss most all of mosaic law with a few exceptions", then why can't you dismiss all the rest of your medieval hatreds and superstitions about gays and witches? Science has proven them wrong: it's time to throw them out. It isn't me, it is scripture, the NT forbids those things, it isn't me cherrypicking, it is just the way it is presented. If I didn't believe in the inerrant word, ya I could dismiss that stuff because it would be my choice what to believe. There are many denominations that do that.
Why is it so important that you prove me wrong?
Why are you trying to steer the conversation to Ted vs Richard? From the video and posting He seems like a good analytical guy, just doesnt understand scripture well. And therefore uses it to his advantage just as Christians use a poorly understood interp of the bible to beat and kill people.
You know what i think it is? Why you are so angry at Christians? You are afraid we are right, it is your internal struggle to reject God. It is so easy to look at the Christians and their hypocritical lifestyles and forget that maybe, just maybe they are right, but imperfect followers of the True God.
Me personally I think we will find out when we die, God will give us what we want. And that is the horror of it all.
MM relationships tend to be quick lived 3-5 years if I remember correctly. FF I don't have as much a problem with, they are more likely to be monogamous but also more likely to adopt children. Family counseling services (most of which I know of are Christian so take this with a grain of salt), have argued that a MF relationship is necessary for a balanced youth upbringing. Be it hormonal or what I don't know, maybe we will have to wait until we get more kids with homosexual parents before the stats are accurate.
It isn't how homosexuals affect me personally other than it raises the chances my kids will die early of an STD even if they are not homosexual. It is the affect it has on society as a whole, I admit I would not be so against homosexuals if STDs were not a problem. Then we would just be debating on the psychology of it. Even then as a believer in the inerrant word of God you would have to contend with that.
I have no problem with you calling me Gay, feel free, I am comfortable in my sexuality, My wife would definitely disagree with your sentiment that I am gay, but hey I have nothing to prove to you. You have your biases and beliefs and I cannot change those, only you can.
Dude, seriously? Where what posts are you reading? 1. Nowhere have we even mentioned evolution, 2. I condemn the homosexual lifestyle, not the homosexual. But to help you out in understanding me rather than lumping me in some Christian Stereotype that you seem to lump all of "us" into. I will mention this. I am a firm believer in evolution, I take issue with some of the theories, but so does most everyone, my wife is a biology professor at a liberal university, but that is another discussion for another day.
Jesus did preach to love everyone, but hate sin. I assume You obviously hate the fact that I am against the homosexual lifestyle, but does that necessarily mean you hate me? I hope not. I have every right to dislike the homosexual lifestyle for religious reasons as I do for health reasons, or you have the right to dislike me for being against the lifestyle.
Let me enlighten you on something else, I can associate homosexuality with whatever I want, I am a human with rights, if I want to say the homosexual lifestyle is a 100% clean and save alternative I can. If I want to say that it is not a clean and safe alternative I can. IF my religion implicitly tells me it is wrong, then it is my right to believe such, just as much as it is your right to believe otherwise and make unfair judgments of someone you have traded a couple posts with on slashdot. Welcome to life, people have different opinions, people have different religions. do I believe I am following the true path? Yes, I do, but that doesn't mean I am going to close my eyes and walk it like many Christians. Do you believe you are following the true path, of course, unless you are in some kind of denial.
In my limited experience I have found that there are certain subjects I cannot convince a non-Christian of. One of these is how to convince an unbeliever of the consequence of homosexuals. Another is to convince a slashdot person that there is universal truth that can be found in Christianity. Because once someone has made up their mind, it takes a special person to change it. I know firsthand.
My question to you would be why do you spend so much time judging us Christians? Does it just make you feel good to yell at someone with convictions because you possibly have none?
There is quite a bit about hypocracy in the bible:
1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. 3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."
Then it quickly follows with " 6"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces."
I will let you in on a little secret, everybody is a hypocrite, it is just easy to prove Christians hypocritical because we wrote down our laws. Atheists get the luxury of defining their own fluid morals so you cant call them a hypocrite.
But also who are you to tell me that I am morally wrong for not accepting the homosexual lifestyle? Or rejecting bestiality, or pedophilia, or incest. To which I get the outcry "Oh those are different, they aren't consenting adults!" well who are you to say who is adult and who isn't? Who are you to say who can love and who cant? I don't draw my lines, I study and listen to Him who I love.
I am a happily married man and yet I reject the homosexual lifestyle and yes I subscribe to the "Love the sinner, hate the sin" mentality. Am I crazy for having a different set of morals than you? Do you think it is easy? Don't you think I wish I could be ok with it? That I could ignore the CDC reports on STDs between male partners?
I would say it is you who are the bigot here. You assume I am a Ted and Mark fan, you assume that because I don't like someone I find a way to label them as sinners. You sir have a lot to learn, I am not angry at you, I just feel pity that you waste so much anger pointing your finger out when you should really take a good look at yourself first, and think, "Do I treat Christians the same way they treat Gays?" Now there you would be hypocritical.
Unless you act on a sin you dont sin. For instance if I am a recovering alcoholic and I don't drink I am fine. But if I go back into drinking I am sinning. Same with homosexuality, you may or may not be predisposed to homosexuality, there is a strong case that can be made that Paul was a homosexual. However if you do not act on it you are ok. Not my words, just what scripture says.
For instance I have to live with the term Religious Right because I am a Christian, did I elect to be a religious right? Does it describe my belief? No but nonetheless that is the group I am termed. Live with it.
You wanna catch these fire and brimstone people, don't fight them with scripture in that regard, you will lose as almost certainly you have not studied it as long as they have. Choose a simpler battle such as, if you hate gays so much, why don't you hate alcoholics, Divorces, and Pedophiles as much?
By using the age old argument of mixed cloth you are just demonstrating one thing, you really don't know scripture that well and will be dismissed as just another disgruntled person biased against the church, therefore it is unlikely that you will be listened to.
Had to say something. At first my jaw dropped at what you said, then I paused and gave it some thought and you are right. I am pro-life from the time the egg implants until the natural death of the human. And I see exactly what you are saying, if someone is to be consistent then what you say, then that is correct. Although babies have been known to be sentient before 11 months. Too bad, I think many people will view your statement the wrong way.
One of the major issues with reading the Bible is the Exegesis vs. Isogesis debate. Isogesis is the "cherry pick" method, where you read into scripture whatever you want. You have probably experienced this on slashdot or e-mail many times when you write something and the reader takes it completely out of context. People will believe whatever they WANT to believe. If I read Nietzsche I have to read trying to figure out what he is saying, otherwise I am getting nothing out of it but what i put in. Same with another fav of mine Sun Tzu. You have to read the whole of it, understand the political arrangements and the mindset of the writer at the time.
Isogesis is largely why you see the Biblical Extremists out there with one liners condemning the world. If they would read the whole passage rather than just the one verse, they would see how wrong they are.
Exegesis, on the other hand is taking the whole of scripture and interpreting, scripture winds back on itself a lot. Jesus's last words on the cross were a quote from the OT, which if you are a Jewish scholar means he was referencing the whole section, not just those words. I take this approach, I am not a expert by any means, however, I spend a bit of time asking questions, reading books and trying my best to make a well researched decision on questionable passages. Referencing back, looking to Respected Scholars for help. But always doing my best to understand rather than "blindly following".
Whether you are Gnostic, Athiest, or theistic, Exegesis should be part of you life so that you can understand others and their writing.
I attribute it to science as well. However psychologically we are not doing that well. How do we fix it? The answer depends on your theological preference.
Same goes with gays, no worse than I am as a sinner, just a different sin.
You must have either been part of a Wisconsin or Missouri Synod.
Now Lutheran practice would remove you from the synod for being unrepentant for any reason. But should not have removed you for being married to a wiccan, if you were a wiccan then they could do it. Just sounds like you were in a very unhealthy church, better to get out of those. You might be much more comfortable in a ELCA Lutheran church if you wanted to stay with Lutherans. They are quite a bit looser in their Church than the other synods, You would absolutely hate Baptist, Catholic, and Pentacostal.
Working off of the fear of hell isnt what should drive you to be moral. Love of your God is. Islam focuses on fear, Christianity, in a well balanced situation, will focus on Love of the Creator and His sacrifice.
If you are going to judge my understanding of the bible that is fine, I am used to Gnostics and Athiests proclaiming how much better they know the Koran, Bible, book of Mormon, than the believers. But to say the Bible tells you to kill sinners is beyond an obtuse misunderstanding. Just as ignorant as saying that all atheists are destroying society for their lack of morals. If this is an example of your understanding of scripture, I suggest you sit down with a theologian, or set aside your biases and really read the whole of the bible. I suggest focusing on the difference between Mosaic Law and Divine Law. Also look into Justification vs Sanctification.
As For How many of the Ten Commandments are actually laws in any modern society? Two, maybe three?
And you think society is doing well now? Check divorce rates, the youth entitlement generations, prevalence of STDs, Breakdown of families, the suicide rate, and on and on. As a Christian I attribute this to original sin. As an Atheist, you can attribute it to societal growing pains.
if you'd actually read your Bible, you would know this.
I never get tired of hearing that though, don't blame you for thinking it as I said before most of my fellow Christians are too busy using the Scripture as a weapon (we call that Isogesis, look it up sometime as 99% of Christians will give you a blank stare). Proper interpretation comes from Exogesis although unless you are taught good Theology you don't know how to do this. People spend their entire lives studying hermeneutics, they were called monks. But this is the reason I attribute most people's hate of the bible to. Interesting point though, the more distant someone is from the Scripture, the more likely they are to be agnostic, or atheist. It is a rare person who regularly reads the Bible with an open mind on a regular basis and rejects it all. Too bad, there is a lot of wisdom in there. Heck I am a Christian and I still see the value to the Koran.
Morality is a natural phenomenon; it arises from the need of humans to live together to survive.
It is called pack theory I think, I read a book on it 5-10 years ago. Might be called Instinct theory, many Academics believe it can naturally account for most all moral compasses, but there are certain traits that cannot be accounted for.
You can call me ignorant or whatever you want but you are just judging me because I dont agree with you.
The real question is, how is the resell doing?
That aside, in my opinion, the atheist moral issue is more of a concern because it allows the scope of human stupidity larger reign. Regardless of whether a person thinks there is a God or not, there is a certain amount of respect to be paid to moral laws that are 8-10K years old. Humanity has learned certain lessons in the past and we need to heed those lessons. Example, even my atheist friends agree, If humanity would be more careful with its sexuality, (be more picky with partners, or abstain to a bonding relationship), we would be able to make STDs a very manageable problem. Many major religions have included abstinence in their moral law.
Now from a Theological standpoint, a Christian should not fear breaking the law because God will smite them. The proper fear comes from the human consequences. Eat Pork in 1500BC and you will have issues, weave different kinds of thread, you will have issues, or the bigger laws, Covet and you will pay $5K for a PS3.
The advantage that a Theistic group has, is it can enforce moral law without explaining it all. But if you delve into each Law it usually has a good, nontheistic, reason for it. The whole Wrath of God idea, just makes it easy to enforce. Whereas an atheist has to rely on his/her own discipline to maintain a moral law. Good luck controlling mass stupidity that way :)
The point (although flawed) that I was trying to point out, was that people, especially us americans. Are absolutely moronic when it comes to finances. I mean real idiots.
Americans need that brand new car, when they could get every feature of that new car by buying one 3 years old and saving around $20K. People arent interested in the future, they are interested in the here and now.
And along with getting bragging rights with your PS3, people will pay a premium to sit a couple rows closer in a concert, pay $10 extra to listen to a CD 6 months before it hits the used or online market. In the town I live we have a $2 theater, plays every major movie that comes out, just 6 months or so later, yet everyone still pays 7.5-10 to watch it as it comes out!
The list goes on and on, Name brand clothes rather than going to Target, K-Mart, or another retailer.
But judging from what you just said you are not one of these people, and like me where you will buy the concert tickets because, hey, the experience is awesome. You still have a head to say, $800 for a console? no way. 5K? ludicrous.
New Clothes.
Any produce
CDs
DVDs
Carpet
Paint
Concert Tickets
and on and on. Many Items are considerably more and you get no value back from them other than intangible feelings. (with the exception of Produce and clothes).
http://www.netropolis.org/hash/perl/virtue.html
But if you dont have time for the link, here they are
LAZINESS: The quality that makes you go to great effort to reduce overall energy expenditure. It makes you write labor-saving programs that other people will find useful, and document what you wrote so you don't have to answer so many questions about it. Hence, the first great virtue of a programmer. IMPATIENCE: The anger you feel when the computer is being lazy. This makes you write programs that don't just react to your needs, but actually anticipate them. Or at least that pretend to. Hence, the second great virtue of a programmer. HUBRIS: Excessive pride, the sort of thing Zeus zaps you for. Also the quality that makes you write (and maintain) programs that other people won't want to say bad things about. Hence, the third great virtue of a programmer.
And I dont think the pyramids in Giza were built out of humility :)
My question to you would be why is arrogance a bad thing? Especially when it drives creative ambition many times?
I actually almost put that one :)
"Yeah - Like China will build a 4000 mile long wall."
"Yeah - We are going to build a tunnel under the English Channel."
"Yeah - We are going to dig a ditch to let boats cross America."
"Yeah - The Egyptians are going to build a gigantic pyramid that will still be standing in 4500 years."
"Yeah - We will propel a highly explosive cargo ship to the moon carrying people."
Ya, I started as a Technician working for the Gov't. Been through 2 major re-orgs in 2.5 years. Just so people could get better salaries. Sure I benefited from it, still am just a tech right now. I may be responsible for all parts of the 60 satellite sites we have, the only tech for 750 employees, the go-to guy for all hardware/software/compatability issues, and all round infrastructure support analyst. But I am a tech, and that is where I like it. However the Gov't re-titles me Information Technology Infrastructure Support Analyst. Couldnt you just say, network Technician? Seriously, the title means nothing to anyone other than Accounting.
Eh, it was apple bashing, I had the troll coming, but totally worth it.
bwah ha ha ha ha ha haah ha.....good one....(wipes away tear)