If you have a solid API that's all you need to be "ethical." It should let you put in the data you want processed, and access the data you want to access.
To me this whole thing is ridiculous, SaaS is not about software, its about service. Am i not supposed to go to a restaurant because I can't keep the plates? I could stay home and cook my own food and use my own plates but I would rather pay for the service.
I am currently starting up an initiative to collect old unwanted PCs and parts so that we can run a computer building workshop in a local community center. We already have a date set, with our first goal of building 5 computers for 5 kids. It's will be our first time doing this but already we have received overwhelmingly positive feedback, and computer parts!
The current plan is to wipe all harddrives, then test parts with the working machines and then take them all apart. We will then teach the kids how to put the computers together and test them. Finally we will help them install a linux distro. I came to this thread to find a post like this! We will definitely be trying out Qimo.
I will be emailing you as well mhall, and seeing you at the Jacksonville Florida Linux Expo!
That's the problem! Instead of looking at this like "what else can we cram down their throats" we should approach it like "how can programming/CS make math more relevant."
I think teaching students basic programming to allow them to visualize geometry (algebra is inherent, because the hardest part about teaching algebra is the concept of variables). You can encourage problem solving along the way, and set up "realistic" problems.
If you want a really simple carrot on the stick, just talk about how much money people in the financial industry make, and all they do is math on computers. Hopefully teachers can get more creative than that, but I think programming would allow students to "hold math in their hands" so to speak.
I like your analysis of the computer in education. It should be treated as tool that makes things more efficient and allows for simulations that otherwise would be unaffordable.
There is a lot of software that can be used to teach art and music. Sure it would be digital art, or it could just be used as a portal to find information and examples about other mediums.
As for music, I think the computer is like the second coming. Software instruments and professional editing tools are becoming more available as opensource programs. These have infinite potential in young hands. It would be much more accessible than lugging a big wood or metal thing around (playing bassoon in middle school turned me off to music) and much easier to scale. All of the same principles could be taught, with the added bonus that kids could make music they find relevant with any sound they want.
What about business and accounting? Most people don't understand credit because they don't understand long term consequences, or how their daily actions sum up. This sounds like a job for a computer game! If you make it fun, kids might actually want to do their homework!
You are right though, the saddest thing is that computers are just being thrown at education like they are better pencils and paper. This makes a lot of people think computers are no good, when really it is they who are no good at teaching.
Everyone has computers at home? Clearly you are the one with a misconception about America.
There are a lot of kids without access to computers, which is an argument for including CS education in primary school. This way they don't fall as behind to the kids who do have computers.
This is exactly what I saw. It's putting OS X on a phone, but in a way that doesn't feel like you are using a desktop OS. That's why I sprang for the iTouch. With the WiFi I essentially have a "netbook" in my hands! Not to mention a development platform that shares a great deal of functionality with the iPhone.
We can look at World of Warcraft for an example of how to avoid that problem with Entertainment. The WoW software is still sold as an end product, but that is only because the market allows them too. The real value is in the monthly subscriptions and the ever improving content that is provided over the medium created by the software.
I think Open Source only looks bad if you try to view software as anything other than a way to solve problems. People will always have problems that can be addressed by technology, so you will always be able to provide value if you can solve those problems.
Your perspective completely ignores very important parts of reality.
People who cannot afford good housing or neighborhoods with good schools cannot afford to "simply" just move to a better neighborhood, let alone a different town. Don't you think if the problem of moving your family to another location was simple, or affordable (can you afford the rental truck? new jobs lined up?) people would have done it already?
Get real. I went to a magnet program in what would have been a failing Florida high school was it not for students like me. I cannot discredit what the magnet program and its teachers did for me, but the resources which they had to work with were pitiful. To think that somehow the thousands of students at my school could have all been bussed, or moved into the area of the nicest public school in town is ridiculous.
We need to fix the schools that are already here, we need to recognize that we are hurting our all of our communities by failing to educate poor communities. We need to stop running away from the problem by presenting unrealistic solutions like shuffling kids around as if they were checkers pieces and start facing the real issue of education.
I'm just wondering, what do you call it when a group of people organize locally to get together to do things (like teach their kids)? It sounds like government to me...
While this comment might be a bit pedantic, I think the solution is not so much dissolving government but redefining what government means to us. It should be the recognition that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, and that together we can do more for ourselves and our community. This is what decided my vote for Obama, that it is not who is sitting in the white house who will make the difference, but the hope he has given me which allows me to improve my community.
It's a multi-platform jabber client that looks a bit more polished then pidgin. Other than that I can't actually attest to how it compares, but a google search or two showed that it is pretty well liked.
There are some projects like PyObjc which is natively supported in OS X and apparently ported to the iPhone: http://www.saurik.com/id/5
It still takes some mucking around the Objective-C API's, but I was able to cobble together a python app for OS X (using the sexy Interface Builder) in a couple weekends.
I agree with the parent's sentiment, but I know where you are coming from. If learning the API and dev environment are too cumbersome for the scope of your project, it may not be worth it. However, I found that Apple's APIs are very well documented and it has been one of my most pleasant application development experiences to date.
Sure, the phone got invented here, but if you look at how things work in other countries where they skipped the whole landline crap things are way different. For example China and India, where cellphones have revolutionized communications. There may only be a couple providers in China, but you can buy any phone with a gsm chip in it to use on their networks.
Trusting the client is a bad model, its not robust and its not as scalable. Of course we can see their interests in remaining in control, especially as they consolidate more and more back to Ma Bell.
Whats scary is that you are OK with this. Why should we "get over it" when we see things working much better in other countries? You may be fine with taking it up the ass from monopolies, but I would rather be able to treat voice communication as a commodity that I consume with whatever interface I prefer.
That analogy doesn't map well enough. It should be that they raid a whorehouse, flip through the guestbook and get the name and address of all past clients. They then raid your house and arrest your dog. It's not about you being in the whorehouse, its the fact that anybody could write down your address and give up your dog's name which calls into question the reliability of using the guestbook to arrest people for prostitution.
It's only a holy war if you play by their rules. By accepting the three options they put forward, you lose. You have forgotten the most powerful weapon in this war, education. When used for the powers of good it can be an extremely constructive force. It has a destructive capability that dwarfs bombs and guns. You see education can actually cure a population of an ideological disease, while guns and bombs either inflame the infection or cause it to hibernate. We lose when we sink to the level of holy war, but politics is humanities best known mechanism for dealing with differences, and it is in our best interest to make this a political battle.
I am so sick of how pussified our country has become. Are we so terrified that we can't watch a video of some nut-cases ranting their idiotic world view? Supporting terrorism? Please. How about exposing barbarism for its true form. This IS an issue of free speech. You see for free speech to work you need to let everyone cast their opinion, so that you can argue against theirs.
At least we both agree that terrorizing the population for selfish purposes is bad, but broadcasting terrorist videos is not the same as supporting them. It is necessary for understanding the perspectives of the people who are so woefully mislead into indiscriminate violence.
My suggestion is to increase communication. Just like in chemistry you speed up a reaction by increasing surface area. I think a solution is to not look at the world in black and white, to see the Chinese people are different from their government. I think the real way to further noble goals such as freedom is to educate people. When Google or anyone else censors, true they are hurting the world, Chinese and Americans alike. But this "evil" is a compromise which allows them to bring more and different knowledge to many more people.
I will give a personal anecdote from my experiences traveling to China. When I visited Tiananmen square I did not mention the tanks, or the protests. I censored myself. However, throughout the rest of my stay I had many engaging conversations with many Chinese people about freedom, democracy, international politics, favorite movies, food etc. If I had taken the principled stance and just stayed home, sure I would not have censored myself, but I would also have deprived myself and the people I was in contact with of those enriching conversations.
Thanks for the level response, hopefully this makes my point of view a bit clearer.
While I understand your sentiment, there was a Congressional hearing and at least one bill about this very situation of US businesses abiding by foreign laws. Specifically internet companies in China.
An essential question here is how does national law work with internet companies who are global in reach. How do we deal with uplifting people in totalitarian regimes? Do we let them fend for themselves, or do we give them the same tools which have boosted our freedom? Even if they are crippled by local laws.
So let me get this straight. Your idea of promoting an encouraging openness (which you and I agree is a good thing) is by completely shutting down China.
That doesn't make much sense to me. I think if you spent even 20 minutes reading about Chinese history in the last century you would be far less ignorant of world affairs and specifically Chinese affairs. I am in no way defending totalitarianism or censorship. I just want to point out how rediculous your "solution" sounds.
If you actually load up wikipedia and read for 20 minutes you might find out about the enormous amounts of strife China as a nation has endured over the last 150 years. Then you would see how it has only been 30 years since the end of the Cultural revolution, and just how much the nation has turned around in the blink of an eye.
Now you advocate destroying 30 years of progress? You want 1.3 billion people to go back to living in abject poverty (even though hundreds of millions are still in abject poverty). All because they draw their maps a little differently from the way we do? You would rather force them into submission than help them grow?
After reading the article (really!) I can see how Gears is more than just offline storage, but extending the browser to do what it should. Right now it is only available as a FF plugin right? Could it be expanded into the google toolbar? ported to IE in the toolbar?
I want to look at this as a way to make even more powerful webapps, but until it gets more widespread it only seems appealing to apps that have a clear offline use.
You have hit the nail on the head. There is even one project I WISH I could help out on right now, but there is no documentation, and after fumbling around figuring out all the dependencies I got the project to build but not work. Good documentation goes a long way!
Right after we send our warships to the Pirate Bay right?
And the "cheap/lead-riddled garbage" you are talking about includes your harddrive, monitor and keyboard? You really think Americans are going to work for a few dollars a day in factories making the stuff we all take for granted? Well, we could have them, but we are too busy building a fence to keep hard workers out.
I've been to China, poverty here just doesn't compare. Especially with a population 3x our size, reality is far different from what American's are used to. I think we are better off preparing for much more of this (namely by focusing on open source) than saber rattling and going on about protectionism. In fact, you can look at China's own history to see the dangers of isolationism (in a cultural/economic sense).
You are mixing your targets. "Those pages" are not "idiocy/vandalism" pages, they are pages of debatable worth/notability. Deleting these pages does not hinder trolls and vandals, in fact it could be considered trolling or vandalism. If you think Wikipedia is burning through good editors, what about good contributors who feel slighted by having their work deleted for no other reason than "appearances"
If this deletionist crap wins out we will end up with a digital Britannica, which would be more than a little disappointing.
Slashdot Mirror
If you have a solid API that's all you need to be "ethical." It should let you put in the data you want processed, and access the data you want to access.
To me this whole thing is ridiculous, SaaS is not about software, its about service. Am i not supposed to go to a restaurant because I can't keep the plates? I could stay home and cook my own food and use my own plates but I would rather pay for the service.
BitTorrent is very popular in China. Many young people use it to get music, movies and TV shows, both American and Chinese.
They call it BT.
I am currently starting up an initiative to collect old unwanted PCs and parts so that we can run a computer building workshop in a local community center. We already have a date set, with our first goal of building 5 computers for 5 kids. It's will be our first time doing this but already we have received overwhelmingly positive feedback, and computer parts!
The current plan is to wipe all harddrives, then test parts with the working machines and then take them all apart. We will then teach the kids how to put the computers together and test them. Finally we will help them install a linux distro. I came to this thread to find a post like this! We will definitely be trying out Qimo.
I will be emailing you as well mhall, and seeing you at the Jacksonville Florida Linux Expo!
Here is my post about the project on my blog:
http://enja.wordpress.com/2008/12/18/digital-divide-lets-build-a-bridge/
That's the problem! Instead of looking at this like "what else can we cram down their throats" we should approach it like "how can programming/CS make math more relevant."
I think teaching students basic programming to allow them to visualize geometry (algebra is inherent, because the hardest part about teaching algebra is the concept of variables). You can encourage problem solving along the way, and set up "realistic" problems.
If you want a really simple carrot on the stick, just talk about how much money people in the financial industry make, and all they do is math on computers. Hopefully teachers can get more creative than that, but I think programming would allow students to "hold math in their hands" so to speak.
I like your analysis of the computer in education. It should be treated as tool that makes things more efficient and allows for simulations that otherwise would be unaffordable.
There is a lot of software that can be used to teach art and music. Sure it would be digital art, or it could just be used as a portal to find information and examples about other mediums.
As for music, I think the computer is like the second coming. Software instruments and professional editing tools are becoming more available as opensource programs. These have infinite potential in young hands. It would be much more accessible than lugging a big wood or metal thing around (playing bassoon in middle school turned me off to music) and much easier to scale. All of the same principles could be taught, with the added bonus that kids could make music they find relevant with any sound they want.
What about business and accounting? Most people don't understand credit because they don't understand long term consequences, or how their daily actions sum up. This sounds like a job for a computer game! If you make it fun, kids might actually want to do their homework!
You are right though, the saddest thing is that computers are just being thrown at education like they are better pencils and paper. This makes a lot of people think computers are no good, when really it is they who are no good at teaching.
Everyone has computers at home? Clearly you are the one with a misconception about America.
There are a lot of kids without access to computers, which is an argument for including CS education in primary school. This way they don't fall as behind to the kids who do have computers.
This is exactly what I saw. It's putting OS X on a phone, but in a way that doesn't feel like you are using a desktop OS. That's why I sprang for the iTouch. With the WiFi I essentially have a "netbook" in my hands!
Not to mention a development platform that shares a great deal of functionality with the iPhone.
We can look at World of Warcraft for an example of how to avoid that problem with Entertainment. The WoW software is still sold as an end product, but that is only because the market allows them too. The real value is in the monthly subscriptions and the ever improving content that is provided over the medium created by the software.
I think Open Source only looks bad if you try to view software as anything other than a way to solve problems. People will always have problems that can be addressed by technology, so you will always be able to provide value if you can solve those problems.
Your perspective completely ignores very important parts of reality.
People who cannot afford good housing or neighborhoods with good schools cannot afford to "simply" just move to a better neighborhood, let alone a different town. Don't you think if the problem of moving your family to another location was simple, or affordable (can you afford the rental truck? new jobs lined up?) people would have done it already?
Get real. I went to a magnet program in what would have been a failing Florida high school was it not for students like me. I cannot discredit what the magnet program and its teachers did for me, but the resources which they had to work with were pitiful. To think that somehow the thousands of students at my school could have all been bussed, or moved into the area of the nicest public school in town is ridiculous.
We need to fix the schools that are already here, we need to recognize that we are hurting our all of our communities by failing to educate poor communities. We need to stop running away from the problem by presenting unrealistic solutions like shuffling kids around as if they were checkers pieces and start facing the real issue of education.
I'm just wondering, what do you call it when a group of people organize locally to get together to do things (like teach their kids)? It sounds like government to me...
While this comment might be a bit pedantic, I think the solution is not so much dissolving government but redefining what government means to us. It should be the recognition that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, and that together we can do more for ourselves and our community. This is what decided my vote for Obama, that it is not who is sitting in the white house who will make the difference, but the hope he has given me which allows me to improve my community.
How come nobody has mentioned Psi?
http://psi-im.org/
It's a multi-platform jabber client that looks a bit more polished then pidgin. Other than that I can't actually attest to how it compares, but a google search or two showed that it is pretty well liked.
There are some projects like PyObjc which is natively supported in OS X and apparently ported to the iPhone:
http://www.saurik.com/id/5
It still takes some mucking around the Objective-C API's, but I was able to cobble together a python app for OS X (using the sexy Interface Builder) in a couple weekends.
I agree with the parent's sentiment, but I know where you are coming from. If learning the API and dev environment are too cumbersome for the scope of your project, it may not be worth it. However, I found that Apple's APIs are very well documented and it has been one of my most pleasant application development experiences to date.
Sure, the phone got invented here, but if you look at how things work in other countries where they skipped the whole landline crap things are way different. For example China and India, where cellphones have revolutionized communications. There may only be a couple providers in China, but you can buy any phone with a gsm chip in it to use on their networks.
Trusting the client is a bad model, its not robust and its not as scalable. Of course we can see their interests in remaining in control, especially as they consolidate more and more back to Ma Bell.
Whats scary is that you are OK with this. Why should we "get over it" when we see things working much better in other countries? You may be fine with taking it up the ass from monopolies, but I would rather be able to treat voice communication as a commodity that I consume with whatever interface I prefer.
That analogy doesn't map well enough. It should be that they raid a whorehouse, flip through the guestbook and get the name and address of all past clients. They then raid your house and arrest your dog.
It's not about you being in the whorehouse, its the fact that anybody could write down your address and give up your dog's name which calls into question the reliability of using the guestbook to arrest people for prostitution.
It's only a holy war if you play by their rules. By accepting the three options they put forward, you lose.
You have forgotten the most powerful weapon in this war, education. When used for the powers of good it can be an extremely constructive force. It has a destructive capability that dwarfs bombs and guns. You see education can actually cure a population of an ideological disease, while guns and bombs either inflame the infection or cause it to hibernate.
We lose when we sink to the level of holy war, but politics is humanities best known mechanism for dealing with differences, and it is in our best interest to make this a political battle.
I am so sick of how pussified our country has become. Are we so terrified that we can't watch a video of some nut-cases ranting their idiotic world view?
Supporting terrorism? Please. How about exposing barbarism for its true form. This IS an issue of free speech. You see for free speech to work you need to let everyone cast their opinion, so that you can argue against theirs.
At least we both agree that terrorizing the population for selfish purposes is bad, but broadcasting terrorist videos is not the same as supporting them. It is necessary for understanding the perspectives of the people who are so woefully mislead into indiscriminate violence.
There wouldn't be a drug trade if it was legal... How many people are abused, threatened or otherwise harmed by the alcohol/tobacco trade?
My suggestion is to increase communication. Just like in chemistry you speed up a reaction by increasing surface area. I think a solution is to not look at the world in black and white, to see the Chinese people are different from their government. I think the real way to further noble goals such as freedom is to educate people.
When Google or anyone else censors, true they are hurting the world, Chinese and Americans alike. But this "evil" is a compromise which allows them to bring more and different knowledge to many more people.
I will give a personal anecdote from my experiences traveling to China. When I visited Tiananmen square I did not mention the tanks, or the protests. I censored myself. However, throughout the rest of my stay I had many engaging conversations with many Chinese people about freedom, democracy, international politics, favorite movies, food etc. If I had taken the principled stance and just stayed home, sure I would not have censored myself, but I would also have deprived myself and the people I was in contact with of those enriching conversations.
Thanks for the level response, hopefully this makes my point of view a bit clearer.
While I understand your sentiment, there was a Congressional hearing and at least one bill about this very situation of US businesses abiding by foreign laws. Specifically internet companies in China.
An essential question here is how does national law work with internet companies who are global in reach. How do we deal with uplifting people in totalitarian regimes? Do we let them fend for themselves, or do we give them the same tools which have boosted our freedom? Even if they are crippled by local laws.
So let me get this straight. Your idea of promoting an encouraging openness (which you and I agree is a good thing) is by completely shutting down China.
That doesn't make much sense to me. I think if you spent even 20 minutes reading about Chinese history in the last century you would be far less ignorant of world affairs and specifically Chinese affairs. I am in no way defending totalitarianism or censorship. I just want to point out how rediculous your "solution" sounds.
If you actually load up wikipedia and read for 20 minutes you might find out about the enormous amounts of strife China as a nation has endured over the last 150 years. Then you would see how it has only been 30 years since the end of the Cultural revolution, and just how much the nation has turned around in the blink of an eye.
Now you advocate destroying 30 years of progress? You want 1.3 billion people to go back to living in abject poverty (even though hundreds of millions are still in abject poverty). All because they draw their maps a little differently from the way we do? You would rather force them into submission than help them grow?
Fuck China? Fuck you.
After reading the article (really!) I can see how Gears is more than just offline storage, but extending the browser to do what it should. Right now it is only available as a FF plugin right? Could it be expanded into the google toolbar? ported to IE in the toolbar?
I want to look at this as a way to make even more powerful webapps, but until it gets more widespread it only seems appealing to apps that have a clear offline use.
You have hit the nail on the head. There is even one project I WISH I could help out on right now, but there is no documentation, and after fumbling around figuring out all the dependencies I got the project to build but not work. Good documentation goes a long way!
Some one wrote a plugin for AppleTV to do this (even though the latest version comes with similar functionality)
http://wiki.awkwardtv.org/wiki/ASeriesOfTubes
I think there are ways to make plugins that work for AppleTV to run in FrontRow
Right after we send our warships to the Pirate Bay right?
And the "cheap/lead-riddled garbage" you are talking about includes your harddrive, monitor and keyboard? You really think Americans are going to work for a few dollars a day in factories making the stuff we all take for granted? Well, we could have them, but we are too busy building a fence to keep hard workers out.
I've been to China, poverty here just doesn't compare. Especially with a population 3x our size, reality is far different from what American's are used to. I think we are better off preparing for much more of this (namely by focusing on open source) than saber rattling and going on about protectionism. In fact, you can look at China's own history to see the dangers of isolationism (in a cultural/economic sense).
You are mixing your targets. "Those pages" are not "idiocy/vandalism" pages, they are pages of debatable worth/notability. Deleting these pages does not hinder trolls and vandals, in fact it could be considered trolling or vandalism. If you think Wikipedia is burning through good editors, what about good contributors who feel slighted by having their work deleted for no other reason than "appearances"
If this deletionist crap wins out we will end up with a digital Britannica, which would be more than a little disappointing.