It's all a matter of perspective. From Sagan's perspective, we're already in space, on a great big blue space ship. Sure, it sorta only does this one loop, repeated... but if it's good enough for millions of NASCAR fans, it's good enough for you. We'll even let you drive, as long as you don't attempt to turn left.
It's never been the National Aeronautics and Mars Administration. We're talking about blowing off putting an American on the Moon and Mars, not everything higher than a dozen miles off the surface of Earth. We got space really close to Earth we can still discover stuff in, still expensive, but at least we can afford it. And one thing NASA is relatively good at is probes. Are Voyager, Viking or Pathfinder style missions chopped liver? No! They're fucking awesome. NASA rules... even on their relatively tiny budget.
No matter how bad the economy might get, I'll feed myself, and my family.
Hmm. Would you still feel the same if you were in a terrible accident and lost your legs? Or if you were dead... think you'll still be feeding your family? Or maybe you could choose to live in a society where people work towards a common good, help each other, so those that fate has brought misfortune to aren't just seen as garbage, then you wouldn't have to worry so much about feeding your family because, well, if you can't, we'll help.
3. You are mistaken... wrong headed here... it's humanity that is doomed sooner or later, not Earth. Earth is a rock.
Er, yes. I guess that's true, though trying to build anything on 'Earth' once it is subsumed by the expanding Sun will also be an expensive project.
I suppose. Maybe we can mitigate that cost by starting a project now to put Man on the Sun. It's just as practical as Mars, and only mildly less comfortable.
at some point in our future the Earth will be so densely populated
I used to be concerned about this when I was in school. I actually attempted to start a movement I called "Get Off the Planet." But then, er, later, I drove across the country a few times. Right now, there is miles and miles, thousands of miles of room. And places like India, and parts of China, where the population is denser than anywhere, we do not see people eating their young. The one possible future of overpopulation is not so bleak as you describe.
When it becomes a real problem, we deal with it. Let's not put the cart before the horse, or try to cross a bridge we haven't arrived at yet. You know, the tires on your car will be bald someday. Why aren't you buying new tires now?
Arguably, yes, bottom of the ocean may be as dangerous and as inhospitable as space. But it's a lot easier to get to, and a lot less expensive. And that's an enormous understatement. And remind me why we want to go to dangerous places for the bargain price of a decade of national revenue?
Uh huh. By that 'logic' we wouldn't spend a dime on any R&D until we had made the world a utopia where nobody was ever
No, just the R&D that costs trillions with no foreseeable return. There is nothing even remotely as expensive as space exploration. It's not the same as spending $500 million curing a disease. That's a bargain. There are no bargains in space... it's all retail x1000.
No it isn't everybody's responsibility.
Yeah, it is. And you agree or you would stop paying Social Security. Unless you're a hypocrite. Or a coward.
And if we could, many of us WOULD
Buuuuuut this is reality, and you can't. And even if you could, trust me, it would suck. Space really sucks. A Moon colony would only suck slightly less, because, presumably, we'd ship air and food and something to protect you from cosmic rays, solar flares, and the vacuum of space. But what's the point? Just so you don't have to live here? You'd be far happier living here on Earth in something much worse than, say, a nasty college dorm room, than with any accommodations on the Moon. At least here you can walk outside without dying instantly. On the Moon? Not so much.
2. There's lots of space at the bottom of the ocean. It's a lot less dangerous, and a lot cheaper, too. See my point? Space is a barren hell hole that makes the barren hell holes on Earth a paradise. I don't know what you've heard, but... Space... it's not a nice place.
3. You are mistaken... wrong headed here... it's humanity that is doomed sooner or later, not Earth. Earth is a rock. Matter can neither be created nor destroyed. Even after the Sun novas, there will still be Earth... just quite a but different than it is now... maybe not all in one place either. People are what matters about Earth, and little else (my cats, too!).
4. The point of housing those that can't afford it is not about economic advancement. It's about being human. You should try it.
um... your numbers are WAY off. Sure, pre colonization period, probably god awful expensive to move to America. But, even with inflation (heh), it doesn't even begin to match the relative cost of space exploration.
nice exaggeration... you are comparing the Earth to a cave... and leaving the Earth is as simple as walking out of the cave unafraid.
My point is the rather severe problems we have should be attended to before we shoot the Moon. If it was as simple as walking out of a cave, that'd be another story. but it's not like that at all, and your metaphor is not well received.. If you can't imagine yourself in a less fortunate position, there is something wrong.
I liken the attitude, the irresponsible attitude, to really really wanting to go to Disney World. You want to go so bad, you rationalize the cost, even if you can't really afford it. That is the issue. We can't afford it. Discovery is not a right or a necessity, it is a luxury. If the return on the investment was actually knowable, or even if Apollo had been a remotely profitable investment, it might not be so clear cut. But as it is, whatever discoveries await us on the Moon will still be there when we can finally afford it. Discovery is not going anywhere. In the meantime, the neighbors' kids are hungry and sick. Yes, that is EVERYONE'S responsibility. If you disagree, save up your cash, and please go live on the Moon. And don't come back until you understand... it's not me against you, or us against them, or everyone for themselves... we are all in it together. The world would be a better place if these space cadets would read and understand Kant, or MLK, or Ghandi, rather than trying to find the most expensive way imaginable to kill themselves.
Ah, I see you're one of those people that are self made. No one helped you, it wasn't luck, it wasn't fate, just you alone against the world with the same exact starting point as anyone else. All your blessings you gained for yourself, and none came any other way, huh.
The poor still pay taxes, dick wad. Taxes payed for the Apollo Missions. I'll bet anything the poor outnumber you sophisticated science-types about a million to one. Also, I think they'd rather have $2 worth of free antibiotic than whatever fantastic discoveries await you on the Moon at a cost of trillions (but, oh, man, tang and microwave ovens made it sooo worth it!).
Then again, you have a point... those poor engineers and scientists... what WILL become of them if we DON'T go to the Moon? They certainly can't advance science on Earth, certainly not if medicine is socialized!
Hey, IQ22, keep up the good work for humanity. We're all counting on you.
the idea of humanity continuing on the moon or Mars is gaining popularity
Really? Maybe if enough people BELIEVE...
Seriously, there is no place on Earth as deadly as the surface of the Moon or Mars. There is no place on Earth that costs as much as a hundredth, maybe a thousandth of the cost of just getting to the Moon, much less Mars, much less staying for any period of time.
These people you speak of... you really think they have any idea of what they're proposing? I'm all for fantasy and imagination, but at the end of the day, no matter how bad the Earth gets, it's exponentially more comfortable and practical than any other place in the Solar System.
yeah, totally. Nokia has the video calling space sown up. What is Apple thinking? Don't they know they can't just jump into a technology space where they weren't first, and just take over with superior marketing, software and hardware, stealing large percentages of their competitors sales? oh... wait a second...
as Finder and quite a few other parts of OS X were still Carbon until Snow Leopard.
Apple has been quite the busy technology company in the last 10 years. Apple has had to tactically allocate their resources, stretched quite thin at times, to pull off the wins that they have. It's true, Finder has been carbon crap until snow. But it's not much of a wonder why. As for Adobe, just WTF have they done since CS?? Evangelized a web platform that gets more bothersome with every revision, and fleeced their flagship customers with absolute bullshit upgrades. If someone doesn't come out and say it, I will: Adobe is bad for technology, bad for the economy, and bad for America. OK, maybe I got a little carried away. But no kidding Adobe sucks and has for years.
Some high end photo book publishers use 300 lpi and 600 dpi... and there is such a thing as continuous tone lithography, with no dot. I know there's some photogravure presses that can accomplish this, and iirc heatweb technology was headed in that direction. The dot is dying.
I had the idea very shortly after the release of the original iphone... I was exaggerating with the duct tape, of course... I imaged something that looked like shop glasses, that somehow supported the displays behind a magnifier lens. I went so far as to make a few rough sketches, but left it moiling around in my head too long.
Because Apple applied for a patent on the idea a few months ago.
Slashdot Mirror
It's all a matter of perspective. From Sagan's perspective, we're already in space, on a great big blue space ship. Sure, it sorta only does this one loop, repeated... but if it's good enough for millions of NASCAR fans, it's good enough for you. We'll even let you drive, as long as you don't attempt to turn left.
It's never been the National Aeronautics and Mars Administration. We're talking about blowing off putting an American on the Moon and Mars, not everything higher than a dozen miles off the surface of Earth. We got space really close to Earth we can still discover stuff in, still expensive, but at least we can afford it. And one thing NASA is relatively good at is probes. Are Voyager, Viking or Pathfinder style missions chopped liver? No! They're fucking awesome. NASA rules... even on their relatively tiny budget.
No matter how bad the economy might get, I'll feed myself, and my family.
Hmm. Would you still feel the same if you were in a terrible accident and lost your legs? Or if you were dead... think you'll still be feeding your family? Or maybe you could choose to live in a society where people work towards a common good, help each other, so those that fate has brought misfortune to aren't just seen as garbage, then you wouldn't have to worry so much about feeding your family because, well, if you can't, we'll help.
3. You are mistaken... wrong headed here... it's humanity that is doomed sooner or later, not Earth. Earth is a rock.
Er, yes. I guess that's true, though trying to build anything on 'Earth' once it is subsumed by the expanding Sun will also be an expensive project.
I suppose. Maybe we can mitigate that cost by starting a project now to put Man on the Sun. It's just as practical as Mars, and only mildly less comfortable.
at some point in our future the Earth will be so densely populated
I used to be concerned about this when I was in school. I actually attempted to start a movement I called "Get Off the Planet." But then, er, later, I drove across the country a few times. Right now, there is miles and miles, thousands of miles of room. And places like India, and parts of China, where the population is denser than anywhere, we do not see people eating their young. The one possible future of overpopulation is not so bleak as you describe.
When it becomes a real problem, we deal with it. Let's not put the cart before the horse, or try to cross a bridge we haven't arrived at yet. You know, the tires on your car will be bald someday. Why aren't you buying new tires now?
Arguably, yes, bottom of the ocean may be as dangerous and as inhospitable as space. But it's a lot easier to get to, and a lot less expensive. And that's an enormous understatement. And remind me why we want to go to dangerous places for the bargain price of a decade of national revenue?
Uh huh. By that 'logic' we wouldn't spend a dime on any R&D until we had made the world a utopia where nobody was ever
No, just the R&D that costs trillions with no foreseeable return. There is nothing even remotely as expensive as space exploration. It's not the same as spending $500 million curing a disease. That's a bargain. There are no bargains in space... it's all retail x1000.
No it isn't everybody's responsibility.
Yeah, it is. And you agree or you would stop paying Social Security. Unless you're a hypocrite. Or a coward.
And if we could, many of us WOULD
Buuuuuut this is reality, and you can't. And even if you could, trust me, it would suck. Space really sucks. A Moon colony would only suck slightly less, because, presumably, we'd ship air and food and something to protect you from cosmic rays, solar flares, and the vacuum of space. But what's the point? Just so you don't have to live here? You'd be far happier living here on Earth in something much worse than, say, a nasty college dorm room, than with any accommodations on the Moon. At least here you can walk outside without dying instantly. On the Moon? Not so much.
"I Imagine Security," because running IIS, that's the only way you can sleep at night... a good imagination.
I take issue with 2, 3, and 4.
2. There's lots of space at the bottom of the ocean. It's a lot less dangerous, and a lot cheaper, too. See my point? Space is a barren hell hole that makes the barren hell holes on Earth a paradise. I don't know what you've heard, but... Space... it's not a nice place.
3. You are mistaken... wrong headed here... it's humanity that is doomed sooner or later, not Earth. Earth is a rock. Matter can neither be created nor destroyed. Even after the Sun novas, there will still be Earth... just quite a but different than it is now... maybe not all in one place either. People are what matters about Earth, and little else (my cats, too!).
4. The point of housing those that can't afford it is not about economic advancement. It's about being human. You should try it.
Social insurance and spaceflight are not mutually exclusive.
I imagine if you swap two wars for a space program, we could be halfway to Mars by now (at least).
ok, I'd go for that. I wish we could do that.
um... your numbers are WAY off. Sure, pre colonization period, probably god awful expensive to move to America. But, even with inflation (heh), it doesn't even begin to match the relative cost of space exploration.
My point is the rather severe problems we have should be attended to before we shoot the Moon. If it was as simple as walking out of a cave, that'd be another story. but it's not like that at all, and your metaphor is not well received.. If you can't imagine yourself in a less fortunate position, there is something wrong.
I liken the attitude, the irresponsible attitude, to really really wanting to go to Disney World. You want to go so bad, you rationalize the cost, even if you can't really afford it. That is the issue. We can't afford it. Discovery is not a right or a necessity, it is a luxury. If the return on the investment was actually knowable, or even if Apollo had been a remotely profitable investment, it might not be so clear cut. But as it is, whatever discoveries await us on the Moon will still be there when we can finally afford it. Discovery is not going anywhere. In the meantime, the neighbors' kids are hungry and sick. Yes, that is EVERYONE'S responsibility. If you disagree, save up your cash, and please go live on the Moon. And don't come back until you understand... it's not me against you, or us against them, or everyone for themselves... we are all in it together. The world would be a better place if these space cadets would read and understand Kant, or MLK, or Ghandi, rather than trying to find the most expensive way imaginable to kill themselves.
Ah, I see you're one of those people that are self made. No one helped you, it wasn't luck, it wasn't fate, just you alone against the world with the same exact starting point as anyone else. All your blessings you gained for yourself, and none came any other way, huh.
The poor still pay taxes, dick wad. Taxes payed for the Apollo Missions. I'll bet anything the poor outnumber you sophisticated science-types about a million to one. Also, I think they'd rather have $2 worth of free antibiotic than whatever fantastic discoveries await you on the Moon at a cost of trillions (but, oh, man, tang and microwave ovens made it sooo worth it!).
Then again, you have a point... those poor engineers and scientists... what WILL become of them if we DON'T go to the Moon? They certainly can't advance science on Earth, certainly not if medicine is socialized!
Hey, IQ22, keep up the good work for humanity. We're all counting on you.
yes, go. by all means.... if you really think the sky is falling. We can use the air.
the idea of humanity continuing on the moon or Mars is gaining popularity
Really? Maybe if enough people BELIEVE...
Seriously, there is no place on Earth as deadly as the surface of the Moon or Mars. There is no place on Earth that costs as much as a hundredth, maybe a thousandth of the cost of just getting to the Moon, much less Mars, much less staying for any period of time.
These people you speak of... you really think they have any idea of what they're proposing? I'm all for fantasy and imagination, but at the end of the day, no matter how bad the Earth gets, it's exponentially more comfortable and practical than any other place in the Solar System.
I vote we just send you to the Moon... with no health insurance.
Google is sort of a news provider now. Why don't they just hide Street View behind the 1st Amendment?
yeah, totally. Nokia has the video calling space sown up. What is Apple thinking? Don't they know they can't just jump into a technology space where they weren't first, and just take over with superior marketing, software and hardware, stealing large percentages of their competitors sales? oh... wait a second...
as Finder and quite a few other parts of OS X were still Carbon until Snow Leopard.
Apple has been quite the busy technology company in the last 10 years. Apple has had to tactically allocate their resources, stretched quite thin at times, to pull off the wins that they have. It's true, Finder has been carbon crap until snow. But it's not much of a wonder why. As for Adobe, just WTF have they done since CS?? Evangelized a web platform that gets more bothersome with every revision, and fleeced their flagship customers with absolute bullshit upgrades. If someone doesn't come out and say it, I will: Adobe is bad for technology, bad for the economy, and bad for America. OK, maybe I got a little carried away. But no kidding Adobe sucks and has for years.
You've obviously never tried the bluefin. Seriously, it's unfuckingbelievable.
Some high end photo book publishers use 300 lpi and 600 dpi... and there is such a thing as continuous tone lithography, with no dot. I know there's some photogravure presses that can accomplish this, and iirc heatweb technology was headed in that direction. The dot is dying.
Since Apple decided to push Safari out via an iTunes update without asking people, I've refused to ever install it on my box.
I know how you feel. Since Microsoft decided to push IE7 out via an update without asking people, I've refused to ever install it on my box.
Does anyone have good recommendations for introductory books for getting started with this arcane "text" technology?
I had the idea very shortly after the release of the original iphone... I was exaggerating with the duct tape, of course... I imaged something that looked like shop glasses, that somehow supported the displays behind a magnifier lens. I went so far as to make a few rough sketches, but left it moiling around in my head too long. Because Apple applied for a patent on the idea a few months ago.