"doesnt this really just suggest that windows servers need regular
replacing to keep doing their job while old unix hardware keeps doing its job
just fine?"
No.
If you are making a living in IT you know that you are still replacing
servers as they roll off warranty and as they are fully depreciated. I'd
no more put one of my Oracle databases on an old Linux machine than an old
Windows machine. Requirements always go up, not down. Saying you can
run Linux on older hardware is a misleading statement.
I suppose if a company is using Linux because it was free, or using UNIX of
some form because it "runs on older hardware" they get what they deserve anyway
- that's not the way to run an IT shop.
The change is likely due to the increase in blade-type systems which are well
suited to a Windows environment. You can use a UNIX server
environment and have interoperability with the end-users' desktop systems and
the domain security model, but when you can just plug another cheap blade in and
not have to worry about a third party authentication scheme, it makes Windows a
pretty easy choice. Some of the arguments posted about not being able to
run more than one app are not a shortcoming in the OS but rather a shortcoming
in the developers. Plus, who cares if you need 5x$1000 blades to run 5
apps on Windows? It would cost more than $5000 to get the same sort of
horsepower in a UNIX box.
Tools my friends, these are just tools. They don't know or care if you
religiously defend them. Your IT careers will be more successful if you
learn to use a variety of tools, each what is appropriate for the job.
RMS has said that he doesn't care about creating "the best" operating system or a "secure" operating system, just a free one.
And that's probably why Stallman is making what he makes a year, and Linus is making what he makes. You might as well take the moral high road if you're eating Ramen every night. It makes it all feel more noble.
I'm interested to see what the good folks here write in response, mostly because it's fun to remember back to how it was when I was so new into the field. I've been in almost 20 years and the simple answer is yes, you will find that this is the case in most places. Some larger companies (like mine) pay for one class a year for continuing education, but we always expect the person to care about their field enough to make sure continuing education is part of their lifestyle.
Hairdressers, Doctors, Nurses, Teachers, all have to pay for classes themselves (in most cases) and IT is no different.
For a long time it was not uncommon for a company to go full bore and make CNE's and MCSE's but they (and I) soon realized that as soon as you trained someone, spending tens of thousands of dollars, they thought they were worth more money - and they were somewhere, else but if they just got trained they got the extra value from me, at least that year. After seeing many demand more money and then leave, I stopped training them. Training is the only compensation you give an employee that they continue to benefit from after they leave - that has to be balanced.
One thing to remember though is it's not about certifications or what classes you've taken - it's about how you act on the job. It's if you throw up your hands and call tech support, or if you actually do troubleshooting and planning. If you are in the latter group then you will be a valued employee wherever you go.
"No matter how much Microsoft tries, it's always hard to configure a
Windows system to be both secure and capable of easily running the software most
users want to run without glitches."
Maybe for a programmer, but for people that follow directions (they even force you
to run a wizard when you install XP SP2) it's pretty easy. As a matter of
fact I had a server running Windows 2000 Server sitting in an unprotected DMZ
for almost three years and I never had any issues. Lest you say I'm a
trained user (and I am) I'll give my parents as an example. If the icon is
not on the desktop, the computer does not do it. They have managed to stay
virus and spyware free despite my father's best efforts to the contrary.
Hell, even the most despised ISP in the world does a better job of protecting
home systems than most of the people dabbling with *NIX at home. The only
thing that keeps the hundreds of distros out there from being the next target is
the fact that nobody wants to write a trojan for 5 PC's. I've been in the
industry for longer than some (most?) people here have been alive and I've never
seen a "home" system so hard for people to use as the maintream Linux distros.
The only step in the right direction was Lindows - but it lacked a way to get
around the "Microsoft Bob" aspects and lacked mainstream support because all the
Linux geeks out there were too good to touch a Lindows system - hobby OS
syndrome at work again.
What's my flavor of choice? Well I have a switchbox and hooked to it
are a BSD, Debian, AIX and an XP laptop. They all do certain things very
well. The important question is what do I install for family when I never
want to come back? The answer is simple, a patched XP installation,
scheduled to install system, AV and spyware updates automatically.
"Hard" is hardly how I would describe making a secure Windows installation.
"Hard" is how I would describe a new Linux user's experience is the first time
he or she is presented with a notice that he or she is missing a whole list of
dependencies. It's a tossup actually... it's either that or the warm
welcome they receive when they stumble upon some sort of support web forum or
mailing list and fail to read the FAQ.
Back to the subject at hand - it will never happen, at least not as
described. What I can see is a router lockout of a system that is found to
be broadcasting a worm or trojan, regardless of the OS. This is a common
practice in many companies these days and is becoming more common all the time.
It's the smart thing to do and some form of this will definitely make it's way
to the mainstream ISP's because people will demand it.
I'm in the "if you like it, use it" boat. An email client is just a means to an end, it's not a destination in and of itself.
Personally, I use and recommend "The Bat!" on my Windows boxes. I have what could be called "advanced" needs and this is one awesome program. It allows (automatically) different sigs per account, different sigs per folder, shared folders between multiple users on the same desktop, cookies, etc. It's not free but a short time using it hooked me. If you have some time and perceive some limitations in your existing client(s), give it a shot.
Standard disclaimer, not affiliated, yadda, yadda.
"What is next? I buy a honda and there will be an eula that if I put on an extra exhaust pipe, or change the air filter I am modding illegally? Oh yeah, I circumvented the rev limiter because my bike moved like grandma's.... everyone does that....."
I don't know how to tell you this - that's been illegal since 1974 or so, at least in the US. I'm pretty sure damn near all European countries have the same emissions laws (or very similar).
For every law we have people telling us why the law is bad. The problem is the people that are telling us the law is bad are people that are breaking the law in the same spirit as we were trying to avoid by creating it. Sure there are legit reasons to mod a box, but show me a person that mods the box only
Also, eople here are going on about "the punishment is too harsh", etc. Guys, the people are only CHARGED and the burden of proof to bring charges is pretty slim. These two are a long way from breaking rocks at Attica. A couple charges will be dropped, they will plea to something else, they will pay a large fine and deservedly these two morons will lose their store.
We've found it to be very impressive how much you can do with so little
code... and it's nice to have a proper OO backend to a flash frontend... the
flash frontend means we can [snip]
I block Flash and I encourage anyone I come across to do so as well.
Flash means we can:
Win a $5,000 shopping spree
Get the X-Box 360 before it hits the stores
Win a dream vacation
Once in a while it does something worthwhile like batting penguins across the
ice.
If I stumble upon a "Flash-only" website I leave and send the business
contact for the domain an email telling them why I left and won't be a customer.
{Admit you don't know anything about what you are about to talk about but think your way is better}
{Slam Microsoft}
Does that about cover it? I think I can rig up some rotating cookies to accrue good karma here if I can just get curl to work in Cygwin correctly.:-)
Seriously though, IE is the browser MANY companies choose and need to use so I think changes to improve security are good, doesn;t everyone else? If you want to contribute get on the Beta team. If you just want to complain, well, nevermind I guess you are in the right place.
Have you considered that possibly I meant it as I said it? Do you know that "Sophomore" means "wise fool"? There's a reason. Next time I'll make my whole post in Latin so it sounds more cool.
I could have take a LOOOONG time to explain that anyone that could possibly say they would quit a job if they got yelled at by their boss would be a career unemployment recipient, but that takes much longer. I applaud Linus' stance and hope that maybe this will be a clue for the rest of the world that OSS needs to be as serious as any other development effort or it's doomed to be relegated to... well, folks like we have here complaining about Linus.
God I can't quit laughing here... flamebait.... maybe I'm baiting you to use your mod points on something other than "insightful"?
I understand your point - and I am often the first to point out that a good product costs money. Why then is it okay for Apple to ensure a virtual monopoly, but when Microsoft does it, it's evil?
What about Google who appears intent on taking over the world, that's okay too right?
So apparently we can stifle innovation (no open platform or source) if the person behind it is a raving lunatic and stands no chance to rule the world, but if they get close to ruling the world they must be abolished?
I need a/. FAQ so I can figuer out who I'm supposed to sheer for.
"At least Linux comes with 99% of drivers pre-installed. With Windows you have to find them on the net first, then find some way of getting them to the target system (because you don't have a NIC driver, remember?)."
Absolutely right.... because it takes more than a group of gamers wanting a particular driver to make the grade.
Besides, you really only serve to make my point for me. Businesses don't really care too much about sound cards in the office.
I wish I could take one of you Linux "experts" up on your idea. "Here, upgrade these 2000 PCs, all of which are from different manufacturers and different configurations, to Linux. I need it done in the off hours and I need everything to work like it did before.".
*crickets*
Of course someone will reply and say "ok!" knowing it won't happen. It's not because I don't have the ability to make that decision but it's because I know better than to get real information/insight about IT from most/. posters.
It's painfully obvious that a scant few here actually have a clue about running a business that relies on IT. It's more than ripping CDs and DVDs kids. Sure, the company that did the mistake is at fault but the problem is not in the chosen OS, it's in the chosen technicians and management.
"'Microsoft Windows and Mac OS X have a long way to go to catch up with the robust, transparent functionality that KDE has provided since version 2.0.'"
Is that the same sort of "transparent functionality" that everyone here slams Microsoft for? You know, the one that prevents removing IE because Explorer is part of the desktop?
I can't wait till the first vulnerability makes use of all that "transparent functionality". That will just be another submission I make that won't be accepted.......
I'm not sure if the true implications are really sinking in to some of you:
Imagine being free to write whatever you want and not having to document! Write whatever you want and some guy that slept in on registration day and missed out on a popular development class will document it for you because he got stuck in the documentation class. Finally a reward for those who actually get up on time in school!
Just how much money do the Linux users here thing they contribute to the
bottom line at Garmin or Magellan? The offerings for Linux (Linspire, etc)
ready for the consumer are noticeably lacking. It's going to stay
that way for quite a while. When someone says "there is no software for
Linux" invariably thousands of geeks on here (I use that term in the fondest
manner) will say "oh I just hooked up my transmogrifier to the digital
mitzoplexer and then filtered that through Google. Simple!". Well
it's not simple folks. Until you realize that the consumers (you
know, those folks paying for things) drive demand, things will not change.
A lot of folks here see a good idea, take it, write their own spaghetti code
and tailor it to how they want it and then call it good. The folks
in Redmond see a good idea, dumb it up to the least common denominator and wham. your Grandmother has one in her Lincoln Continental. See
the difference? There's money in developing code that's "good enough" so
long as you address it to your market.
I've seen some pretty cool work with in-car PCs and
some using Linux. These are packaged
with the consumer in mind, even if they are not quire ready yet. That's
what's going to catch on. Just because there are open standards does not
mean you all need to write your own. That's the surest way to obscurity.
Um...Mac OS X is only getting better and more switchers from Microsoft
So when can I expect to be able to put OS X n my PC? Oh that's right, never. You're mixing a hardware choice with an OS choice. Not really apples to apples.
....and FreeBSD is still running a lot of servers around the world (and ones that don't go down).
Ones that don't go down... as opposed to the ones that always go down I guess? I have Windows-based servers that have been running for years (2+) in an isolated environment. When can I expect then to crash?
The fact is the stability of a server is directly related to the ability of the support staff. A group of poorly-trained BSD admins will do a worse job and produce a crappier result than a group of highly-trained Windows admins.
I predict that in 10 years from now, Microsoft will be dead, linux and FreeBSD will feed off of each other making both extremely good choices (FreeBSD for server, linux for desktop). Then the competition will be between Mac OS X and linux for the desktop.
I'll take that bet. I predict that IT people that know how to use the best took for the situation and the task at hand will survive while people that will "only use Xxxx" will be back flipping burgers.
Slashdot Mirror
"doesnt this really just suggest that windows servers need regular replacing to keep doing their job while old unix hardware keeps doing its job just fine?"
No.
If you are making a living in IT you know that you are still replacing servers as they roll off warranty and as they are fully depreciated. I'd no more put one of my Oracle databases on an old Linux machine than an old Windows machine. Requirements always go up, not down. Saying you can run Linux on older hardware is a misleading statement.
I suppose if a company is using Linux because it was free, or using UNIX of some form because it "runs on older hardware" they get what they deserve anyway - that's not the way to run an IT shop.
The change is likely due to the increase in blade-type systems which are well suited to a Windows environment. You can use a UNIX server environment and have interoperability with the end-users' desktop systems and the domain security model, but when you can just plug another cheap blade in and not have to worry about a third party authentication scheme, it makes Windows a pretty easy choice. Some of the arguments posted about not being able to run more than one app are not a shortcoming in the OS but rather a shortcoming in the developers. Plus, who cares if you need 5x$1000 blades to run 5 apps on Windows? It would cost more than $5000 to get the same sort of horsepower in a UNIX box.
Tools my friends, these are just tools. They don't know or care if you religiously defend them. Your IT careers will be more successful if you learn to use a variety of tools, each what is appropriate for the job.
And that's probably why Stallman is making what he makes a year, and Linus is making what he makes. You might as well take the moral high road if you're eating Ramen every night. It makes it all feel more noble.
... RMS could always go looking for another kernel for his crusade.
Bravo Linus, for showing us that one need not have a GPL tatoo to enjoy the benefits of Linux.
I'm interested to see what the good folks here write in response, mostly because it's fun to remember back to how it was when I was so new into the field. I've been in almost 20 years and the simple answer is yes, you will find that this is the case in most places. Some larger companies (like mine) pay for one class a year for continuing education, but we always expect the person to care about their field enough to make sure continuing education is part of their lifestyle.
Hairdressers, Doctors, Nurses, Teachers, all have to pay for classes themselves (in most cases) and IT is no different.
For a long time it was not uncommon for a company to go full bore and make CNE's and MCSE's but they (and I) soon realized that as soon as you trained someone, spending tens of thousands of dollars, they thought they were worth more money - and they were somewhere, else but if they just got trained they got the extra value from me, at least that year. After seeing many demand more money and then leave, I stopped training them. Training is the only compensation you give an employee that they continue to benefit from after they leave - that has to be balanced.
One thing to remember though is it's not about certifications or what classes you've taken - it's about how you act on the job. It's if you throw up your hands and call tech support, or if you actually do troubleshooting and planning. If you are in the latter group then you will be a valued employee wherever you go.
Oh come ON, who modded the parent +5 informative for a one line troll bait?
"No matter how much Microsoft tries, it's always hard to configure a Windows system to be both secure and capable of easily running the software most users want to run without glitches."
Maybe for a programmer, but for people that follow directions (they even force you to run a wizard when you install XP SP2) it's pretty easy. As a matter of fact I had a server running Windows 2000 Server sitting in an unprotected DMZ for almost three years and I never had any issues. Lest you say I'm a trained user (and I am) I'll give my parents as an example. If the icon is not on the desktop, the computer does not do it. They have managed to stay virus and spyware free despite my father's best efforts to the contrary.
Hell, even the most despised ISP in the world does a better job of protecting home systems than most of the people dabbling with *NIX at home. The only thing that keeps the hundreds of distros out there from being the next target is the fact that nobody wants to write a trojan for 5 PC's. I've been in the industry for longer than some (most?) people here have been alive and I've never seen a "home" system so hard for people to use as the maintream Linux distros. The only step in the right direction was Lindows - but it lacked a way to get around the "Microsoft Bob" aspects and lacked mainstream support because all the Linux geeks out there were too good to touch a Lindows system - hobby OS syndrome at work again.
What's my flavor of choice? Well I have a switchbox and hooked to it are a BSD, Debian, AIX and an XP laptop. They all do certain things very well. The important question is what do I install for family when I never want to come back? The answer is simple, a patched XP installation, scheduled to install system, AV and spyware updates automatically.
"Hard" is hardly how I would describe making a secure Windows installation. "Hard" is how I would describe a new Linux user's experience is the first time he or she is presented with a notice that he or she is missing a whole list of dependencies. It's a tossup actually ... it's either that or the warm
welcome they receive when they stumble upon some sort of support web forum or
mailing list and fail to read the FAQ.
Back to the subject at hand - it will never happen, at least not as described. What I can see is a router lockout of a system that is found to be broadcasting a worm or trojan, regardless of the OS. This is a common practice in many companies these days and is becoming more common all the time. It's the smart thing to do and some form of this will definitely make it's way to the mainstream ISP's because people will demand it.
I'm in the "if you like it, use it" boat. An email client is just a means to an end, it's not a destination in and of itself.
Personally, I use and recommend "The Bat!" on my Windows boxes. I have what could be called "advanced" needs and this is one awesome program. It allows (automatically) different sigs per account, different sigs per folder, shared folders between multiple users on the same desktop, cookies, etc. It's not free but a short time using it hooked me. If you have some time and perceive some limitations in your existing client(s), give it a shot.
Standard disclaimer, not affiliated, yadda, yadda.
"What is next? I buy a honda and there will be an eula that if I put on an extra exhaust pipe, or change the air filter I am modding illegally? Oh yeah, I circumvented the rev limiter because my bike moved like grandma's.... everyone does that ....."
I don't know how to tell you this - that's been illegal since 1974 or so, at least in the US. I'm pretty sure damn near all European countries have the same emissions laws (or very similar).
For every law we have people telling us why the law is bad. The problem is the people that are telling us the law is bad are people that are breaking the law in the same spirit as we were trying to avoid by creating it. Sure there are legit reasons to mod a box, but show me a person that mods the box only
Also, eople here are going on about "the punishment is too harsh", etc. Guys, the people are only CHARGED and the burden of proof to bring charges is pretty slim. These two are a long way from breaking rocks at Attica. A couple charges will be dropped, they will plea to something else, they will pay a large fine and deservedly these two morons will lose their store.
We've found it to be very impressive how much you can do with so little code... and it's nice to have a proper OO backend to a flash frontend... the flash frontend means we can [snip]
I block Flash and I encourage anyone I come across to do so as well. Flash means we can:
Win a $5,000 shopping spree
Get the X-Box 360 before it hits the stores
Win a dream vacation
Once in a while it does something worthwhile like batting penguins across the ice.
If I stumble upon a "Flash-only" website I leave and send the business contact for the domain an email telling them why I left and won't be a customer.
{Rhetorical question}
{Admit you don't know anything about what you are about to talk about but think your way is better}
{Slam Microsoft}
Does that about cover it? I think I can rig up some rotating cookies to accrue good karma here if I can just get curl to work in Cygwin correctly. :-)
Seriously though, IE is the browser MANY companies choose and need to use so I think changes to improve security are good, doesn;t everyone else? If you want to contribute get on the Beta team. If you just want to complain, well, nevermind I guess you are in the right place.
Flamebait!! How redundant from a /. poster!
Have you considered that possibly I meant it as I said it? Do you know that "Sophomore" means "wise fool"? There's a reason. Next time I'll make my whole post in Latin so it sounds more cool.
I could have take a LOOOONG time to explain that anyone that could possibly say they would quit a job if they got yelled at by their boss would be a career unemployment recipient, but that takes much longer. I applaud Linus' stance and hope that maybe this will be a clue for the rest of the world that OSS needs to be as serious as any other development effort or it's doomed to be relegated to ... well, folks like we have here complaining about Linus.
God I can't quit laughing here ... flamebait .... maybe I'm baiting you to use your mod points on something other than "insightful"?
I understand your point - and I am often the first to point out that a good product costs money. Why then is it okay for Apple to ensure a virtual monopoly, but when Microsoft does it, it's evil?
What about Google who appears intent on taking over the world, that's okay too right?
So apparently we can stifle innovation (no open platform or source) if the person behind it is a raving lunatic and stands no chance to rule the world, but if they get close to ruling the world they must be abolished?
I need a /. FAQ so I can figuer out who I'm supposed to sheer for.
" If my boss used this tone with me, I would quit the job."
Spoken like a true college Sophomore.
"At least Linux comes with 99% of drivers pre-installed. With Windows you have to find them on the net first, then find some way of getting them to the target system (because you don't have a NIC driver, remember?)."
Absolutely right .... because it takes more than a group of gamers wanting a particular driver to make the grade.
Besides, you really only serve to make my point for me. Businesses don't really care too much about sound cards in the office.
I wish I could take one of you Linux "experts" up on your idea. "Here, upgrade these 2000 PCs, all of which are from different manufacturers and different configurations, to Linux. I need it done in the off hours and I need everything to work like it did before.".
*crickets*
Of course someone will reply and say "ok!" knowing it won't happen. It's not because I don't have the ability to make that decision but it's because I know better than to get real information/insight about IT from most /. posters.
It's painfully obvious that a scant few here actually have a clue about running a business that relies on IT. It's more than ripping CDs and DVDs kids. Sure, the company that did the mistake is at fault but the problem is not in the chosen OS, it's in the chosen technicians and management.
/.ed I just have to remember to check tomorrow ..... that site sounds like just what I needed.
"'Microsoft Windows and Mac OS X have a long way to go to catch up with the robust, transparent functionality that KDE has provided since version 2.0.'"
Is that the same sort of "transparent functionality" that everyone here slams Microsoft for? You know, the one that prevents removing IE because Explorer is part of the desktop?
I can't wait till the first vulnerability makes use of all that "transparent functionality". That will just be another submission I make that won't be accepted.......
" When do we slashbots start hating google for becoming too big?" Sometime after /. starts displaying correctly in Firefox?
I'm not sure if the true implications are really sinking in to some of you:
Imagine being free to write whatever you want and not having to document! Write whatever you want and some guy that slept in on registration day and missed out on a popular development class will document it for you because he got stuck in the documentation class. Finally a reward for those who actually get up on time in school!
That's just ... AWESOME!
Just how much money do the Linux users here thing they contribute to the bottom line at Garmin or Magellan? The offerings for Linux (Linspire, etc) ready for the consumer are noticeably lacking. It's going to stay that way for quite a while. When someone says "there is no software for Linux" invariably thousands of geeks on here (I use that term in the fondest manner) will say "oh I just hooked up my transmogrifier to the digital mitzoplexer and then filtered that through Google. Simple!". Well it's not simple folks. Until you realize that the consumers (you know, those folks paying for things) drive demand, things will not change.
A lot of folks here see a good idea, take it, write their own spaghetti code and tailor it to how they want it and then call it good. The folks in Redmond see a good idea, dumb it up to the least common denominator and wham . your Grandmother has one in her Lincoln Continental. See the difference? There's money in developing code that's "good enough" so long as you address it to your market.
I've seen some pretty cool work with in-car PCs and some using Linux. These are packaged with the consumer in mind, even if they are not quire ready yet. That's what's going to catch on. Just because there are open standards does not mean you all need to write your own. That's the surest way to obscurity.
Um...Mac OS X is only getting better and more switchers from Microsoft
So when can I expect to be able to put OS X n my PC? Oh that's right, never. You're mixing a hardware choice with an OS choice. Not really apples to apples.
Ones that don't go down ... as opposed to the ones that always go down I guess? I have Windows-based servers that have been running for years (2+) in an isolated environment. When can I expect then to crash?
The fact is the stability of a server is directly related to the ability of the support staff. A group of poorly-trained BSD admins will do a worse job and produce a crappier result than a group of highly-trained Windows admins.
I predict that in 10 years from now, Microsoft will be dead, linux and FreeBSD will feed off of each other making both extremely good choices (FreeBSD for server, linux for desktop). Then the competition will be between Mac OS X and linux for the desktop.
I'll take that bet. I predict that IT people that know how to use the best took for the situation and the task at hand will survive while people that will "only use Xxxx" will be back flipping burgers.