Very good points. This is exactly why we need to have a Plan-B, and move forward with the old Shuttle-C concepts as described by Dennis Wingo and others.
Why this hasn't been addressed floors me as a logically thinking person, and enrages me as a tax payer. You won't need to change the VAB, the Launchpads, the crawler, etc. You're taking advantage of previous case studies. You're maintain the Orbiter capability for rare occasions such as future Hubble or other servicing missions.
However, given that most of the comments to this article revolve around the stupid elephant, I can see how NASA and our gov't gets away with what it is.
Funny you wrote it that way.. My grad adviser had a project back nearly 7 years ago where we (well, my man Michael Manak) had actually convinced some plants to grow in that soil, and we even convinced them to tell us how they were doing. Science@NASA even did a story on our genetically modified plants that we proposed sending to Mars.
"I have no doubt what we can get plants to survive on Mars. When we do, we will have shown that Earth-evolved life is capable of thriving in distant worlds, and we will have set the stage for human colonization," Ferl said.
Looks like he was right on point, except it might just be TOO easy to grow plants there. This data should help decide how to further modify plants for the 'next' mission opportunity!
Actually this is closer to the truth. Why not get a possible vacation, fine dining, and a possible trip to the strip club, all on your clients' dime?
Wasn't Larry Spitzer a lawyer?
No. It's not open to everyone. There are FAA restrictions on the ability for an individual to follow safety instructions during these special flights. However, if you have adequate professional assistance, the safety requirements can be met.
;) Lots of work with NASA before I became the Director of Technical Operations for the Zero Gravity Corporation. If you click on the video in this MSNBC story, you'll see me jumping around with the white shoes, megaphone, and headset (~time 00:32).
It's a cool job, and it gives me some insight into this particular topic;) That being said...I certainly figured an astronaut would have chimed in the discussion. I guess not too many astronauts are the nerds I always thought they'd be.
That's a very good idea...but you'd need to build the contraption to be able to do that. In such tight quarters onboard the plane...that would require a bit of engineering to do, but I'd love to work on that project.
Hey Doc...
While I do agree with you that publicity medicine isn't such a good idea... you may be interested in reading these publications to learn more about the history of surgical research in microgravity.
Probably constant dabbing with sponges or gauze would be useful in stopping the blood from flying away...but keep in mind...the surface tension of blood will keep it sticky to the site of incision, the instruments, and to their gloves. That is of course assuming they don't cut a high pressure spurting artery...then all bets are off. Point is, I don't think this minor surgery will dig that deep.
Having spent a lot of time in microgravity, my main concern would be in keeping the area sterile. Dust, hair, and everything else floats around a lot better in microgravity...and keeping particulate matter out of the incision site is going to be a task. It's hard enough to keep the planes clean of the big dirt from your shoes...it doesn't take much to spread microscopic contaminants
If risk to a patient's life is a condition for making a medical procedure 'unethical' as you claim, than we might as well cease all surgeries and stick with asprin and band-aids. Oh wait, they have side effects too.
There is a risk to all surgery and medical treatement, and fortunately the medical community disagrees with your point of view.
To say that this stunt has no value is to also say that all parabolic flight research has no value.
Fortunately for those of us whom are educated and are more aware of the value of performing ground controls and flight testing of a procedure before certification and implementaton, we have a body of evidence to prove our point.
May I suggest a quick perusal of the body of literature to further understand the true utility of parabolic flight research
Moreover, it's important to realize the relativistic forces involved here...The tension of human skin is far stronger than the force of gravity exerted on the skin. Sutures are stronger...and will not come un ravelled by the reintroduction of a 9.8m/s^2 acceleration.
Given that I fly parabolas professionally, I can also attest that the 20m/s^2 during the pullout (climb) probably won't pull stiches out either
While you have a point; the simulation of microgravity during parabolic flight is certainly not precisely analogous to the microgravity experienced in orbit, it is important to realize that containment systems for the worst case scenarios you cite ("stream of blod" & "stomach acid, anal leakage, urine") ought to be tested in microgravity by choice before they are needed by force.
The low risk nature of this specific procedure will certainly give some insights into the methodology of incision and suturing in a microgravity environment. While there have been medical procedures performed upon experimental pigs and other analogs aboard NASA's KC-135 and C9...the importance of using volunteer human test subjects should not be overlooked
Moreover, it is more realistic to test surgical procedures in microgravity than to assume that all spacecraft will contain hypothetical rotating structures that will likely never see widespread use even when we become a spacefaring species
How unethical? How unecessary.
If you actually took the time to read the story, you see that the guy is a VOLUNTEER. This type of research, on VOLUNTEERS, is a necessary thing if we are ever going to learn how to perform emergency procedures in microgravity.
To compare this to a NAZI death camp is immature, irresponsible, and just plain ignorant.
Actually, that is funny, because in Lunar paraboloas you can do jumps like the Michael Jordan posed logo on his 'Air' shoes. Indeed, these reduced gravity scenarios are in many cases far more fun, it is not as foreign as Zero as you still have control and still know which way is down.
Zero gravity is really cool, but Lunar and Martian are where the real fun is. And if you're strong enough, 1.8 Gs can be fun too.
"negative-g" is not just a "simplistic way", as you say, but a defined and measureable parameter recorded and indicated by the accelerometers. Frame of reference notwithstanding, "negative-g" is a real term to accurately describe a real phenomenon.
Technically, you're not wrong, but the pedantics here confuse the issue a bit more than necessary, don't ya think? I know this is Slashdot and all but really.
We are working on it. Trust me, I want everyone to be able to experience this. We are a young and small business, and as we grow and establish ourselves, the price should come down. The rules of the free market still apply. Soon, just keep checking the ZeroG website.
So far we've had 80 something year old men and women fly with us...so chances are that if you seriously start saving now for it, the intersection of how much you've saved and how much the price has come down will be sooner than you think!
That's funny, because some of the ZeroG T-Shirts say "Newton Lied" and "Break the Law".
I'd post a link where you can see them, but just do a Google search and you'll find them.
To add a bit more insight to this...ZeroG currently operates out of Fort Lauderdale, however, we are starting to offer flights out of Kennedy Space Center, in fact, right off the Space Shuttle Landing Facility.
Individual seats are about $3,700 as noted by FleaPlus, but it is possible to book an entire flight for parties, which we've done a few times now.
For the researchers, we have successfully flown with NASA out of Ellington Field in Houston and are currently making flights available to NASA and individual (private & academic) researchers.
Lastly, I'd like to point out that we're really striving to reduce the price for each individual seat. Keep your eyes on the website over this year to see what we're able to do.
Have any questions? Look me up and drop me an email.
ZeroG uses a 727-200 aircraft. It is essentially the same size as the KC-135 aircraft, except that it has three cleaner burning, EPA approved engines versus the old four that smoked out Ellington Field on take-off.
And, for those of you who watched American TV last night, you would have seen us on NBC's Three Wishes and if you're really a couch potato, you've seen us on The Apprentice, The Biggest Loser, and The Rebel Millionare
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Very good points. This is exactly why we need to have a Plan-B, and move forward with the old Shuttle-C concepts as described by Dennis Wingo and others.
What to do when ESAS & the VSE Fail
Why this hasn't been addressed floors me as a logically thinking person, and enrages me as a tax payer. You won't need to change the VAB, the Launchpads, the crawler, etc. You're taking advantage of previous case studies. You're maintain the Orbiter capability for rare occasions such as future Hubble or other servicing missions. However, given that most of the comments to this article revolve around the stupid elephant, I can see how NASA and our gov't gets away with what it is.
For the record, Rob Ferl was quoted in an old CNN article recently cited in a previous Slashdot comment
"I have no doubt what we can get plants to survive on Mars. When we do, we will have shown that Earth-evolved life is capable of thriving in distant worlds, and we will have set the stage for human colonization," Ferl said.
Looks like he was right on point, except it might just be TOO easy to grow plants there. This data should help decide how to further modify plants for the 'next' mission opportunity!
Actually this is closer to the truth. Why not get a possible vacation, fine dining, and a possible trip to the strip club, all on your clients' dime? Wasn't Larry Spitzer a lawyer?
No. It's not open to everyone. There are FAA restrictions on the ability for an individual to follow safety instructions during these special flights. However, if you have adequate professional assistance, the safety requirements can be met.
;) Lots of work with NASA before I became the Director of Technical Operations for the Zero Gravity Corporation. If you click on the video in this MSNBC story, you'll see me jumping around with the white shoes, megaphone, and headset (~time 00:32).
It's a cool job, and it gives me some insight into this particular topic ;) That being said...I certainly figured an astronaut would have chimed in the discussion. I guess not too many astronauts are the nerds I always thought they'd be.
That's a very good idea...but you'd need to build the contraption to be able to do that. In such tight quarters onboard the plane...that would require a bit of engineering to do, but I'd love to work on that project.
Actually, that's not true for anesthesia
Hey Doc... While I do agree with you that publicity medicine isn't such a good idea... you may be interested in reading these publications to learn more about the history of surgical research in microgravity.
I would suggest performing a surgery on an animal Done. Thirteen years ago.
Probably constant dabbing with sponges or gauze would be useful in stopping the blood from flying away...but keep in mind...the surface tension of blood will keep it sticky to the site of incision, the instruments, and to their gloves. That is of course assuming they don't cut a high pressure spurting artery...then all bets are off. Point is, I don't think this minor surgery will dig that deep.
Having spent a lot of time in microgravity, my main concern would be in keeping the area sterile. Dust, hair, and everything else floats around a lot better in microgravity...and keeping particulate matter out of the incision site is going to be a task. It's hard enough to keep the planes clean of the big dirt from your shoes...it doesn't take much to spread microscopic contaminants
If risk to a patient's life is a condition for making a medical procedure 'unethical' as you claim, than we might as well cease all surgeries and stick with asprin and band-aids. Oh wait, they have side effects too.
There is a risk to all surgery and medical treatement, and fortunately the medical community disagrees with your point of view.
To say that this stunt has no value is to also say that all parabolic flight research has no value.
Fortunately for those of us whom are educated and are more aware of the value of performing ground controls and flight testing of a procedure before certification and implementaton, we have a body of evidence to prove our point.
May I suggest a quick perusal of the body of literature to further understand the true utility of parabolic flight researchMoreover, it's important to realize the relativistic forces involved here...The tension of human skin is far stronger than the force of gravity exerted on the skin. Sutures are stronger...and will not come un ravelled by the reintroduction of a 9.8m/s^2 acceleration.
Given that I fly parabolas professionally, I can also attest that the 20m/s^2 during the pullout (climb) probably won't pull stiches out either
And to compare it to Nazi's is stupid.
May I suggest you read more about this story hereWhile you have a point; the simulation of microgravity during parabolic flight is certainly not precisely analogous to the microgravity experienced in orbit, it is important to realize that containment systems for the worst case scenarios you cite ("stream of blod" & "stomach acid, anal leakage, urine") ought to be tested in microgravity by choice before they are needed by force.
The low risk nature of this specific procedure will certainly give some insights into the methodology of incision and suturing in a microgravity environment. While there have been medical procedures performed upon experimental pigs and other analogs aboard NASA's KC-135 and C9...the importance of using volunteer human test subjects should not be overlooked
Moreover, it is more realistic to test surgical procedures in microgravity than to assume that all spacecraft will contain hypothetical rotating structures that will likely never see widespread use even when we become a spacefaring species
How unethical? How unecessary. If you actually took the time to read the story, you see that the guy is a VOLUNTEER. This type of research, on VOLUNTEERS, is a necessary thing if we are ever going to learn how to perform emergency procedures in microgravity. To compare this to a NAZI death camp is immature, irresponsible, and just plain ignorant.
Zero gravity is really cool, but Lunar and Martian are where the real fun is. And if you're strong enough, 1.8 Gs can be fun too.
...these discussions are better served in the classroom or with a pint of beer!
Technically, you're not wrong, but the pedantics here confuse the issue a bit more than necessary, don't ya think? I know this is Slashdot and all but really.
Thank you, I will report that immediately.
So far we've had 80 something year old men and women fly with us...so chances are that if you seriously start saving now for it, the intersection of how much you've saved and how much the price has come down will be sooner than you think!
That's funny, because some of the ZeroG T-Shirts say "Newton Lied" and "Break the Law". I'd post a link where you can see them, but just do a Google search and you'll find them.
Individual seats are about $3,700 as noted by FleaPlus, but it is possible to book an entire flight for parties, which we've done a few times now.
For the researchers, we have successfully flown with NASA out of Ellington Field in Houston and are currently making flights available to NASA and individual (private & academic) researchers.
Lastly, I'd like to point out that we're really striving to reduce the price for each individual seat. Keep your eyes on the website over this year to see what we're able to do.
Have any questions? Look me up and drop me an email.
ZeroG uses a 727-200 aircraft. It is essentially the same size as the KC-135 aircraft, except that it has three cleaner burning, EPA approved engines versus the old four that smoked out Ellington Field on take-off.
Here's a link to some of the photos taken on board with some of our tourists: zero-g.smugmug.com
Here's a link to a recent local news video covering our very first flights from KSC: www.wesh.com/spacenews/5267185/detail.html
And, for those of you who watched American TV last night, you would have seen us on NBC's Three Wishes and if you're really a couch potato, you've seen us on The Apprentice, The Biggest Loser, and The Rebel Millionare