Probably a good thing. Using corn or other edible crops has been linked to rising food prices that have been painful in the third world, the US, and Europe.
So, the "big money" isn't in putting multiple freaking surveillance satellites into orbit, or engaging in surveillance of a meaningful subset of the 200 countries on the planet, countries with radars, radios, telephones, data communications, pretty much all of which is overseas and of potential interest to NSA? The money is in getting electronic copies of phone bills and hanging on to them for five years?
That isn't simply false, it is a lie. Iraq manufactured it own WMDs after developing them with Egypt. They used them against Iran during the Iraq-Iran war in the 1980s, and killed or injured many people. It took a decade of effort to disarm Iraq of its WMDs after the 1991 Gulf War as they were repeatedly caught lying and cheating. (Taking notes?)
The US doesn't need an invasion so much as you seemingly need medication or therapy. Since you repeatedly reference the superior healthcare system of the country you've gone to live in after leaving the US I would assume that shouldn't be a problem.
That's funny, I don't see you making an argument or presenting any facts. I take it you're all out for the moment? Then why post? You don't seem to be doing anything useful.
Not that I will necessarily agree with the AC, but you wouldn't deny that the Russians, Chinese, Iranians, Cubans, al Qaida, and others, have access to the same Top Secret American, British, Australian, and Canadian documents leaked by Snowden that have found their way either into print or onto the web, would you? So that means that they assuredly have at least some of those Top Secret documents. That is before we get to the question of the already many and growing number of businesses (many newspapers, web sites, etc.) that have those documents, and the question of have been able to provide adequate security to prevent them from falling into the hand of nation states with sophisticated intelligence agencies that don't have to follow the niceties of American or British law such as Russian or Chinese agents operating overseas. Maybe you've heard, but Russian agents have assassinated people in the UK before. A little breaking and entering or other more subtle intelligence gathering would be inconsequential to them. And that is probably all it would take for them to get the complete trove of documents. That is assuming that they would even have to do that, that they don't have moles in those papers now. I'm pretty sure that newspapers and TV stations don't conduct 10-20 year background checks of their employees similar to those for Top Secret clearances (even if they are sometimes "imperfectly" done as they were in Snowden's case).
There is reason to doubt Edward Snowden’s claim that Russian or Chinese spies have not seen the NSA files he leaked. . In an interview with the New York Times published yesterday, document-leaking NSA contractor Edward Snowden made a bold claim in response to allegations that other nations may have got hold of his classified haul:
“There’s a zero percent chance the Russians or Chinese have received any documents.”
Many security and surveillance experts publicly questioned that claim. Google security engineer Justin Schuh tweeted that the remark showed “Snowden is divorced from reality,”
Now we can also add to that the fact that the UK government assesses the secrets that Snowden stole to have fallen into the hands of foreign intelligence agencies. I seem to recall that NSA, or at least some of its leaders, have a similar assessment.
Sir David, the former head of the UK's communications surveillance centre GCHQ, told the Times: "You have to distinguish between the original whistleblowing intent to get a debate going, which is a responsible thing to do, and the stealing of 58,000 top-secret British security documents and who knows how many American documents, which is seriously, seriously damaging.
"The assumption the experts are working on is that all that information or almost all of it will now be in the hands of Moscow and Beijing.
"It's the most catastrophic loss to British intelligence ever, much worse than Burgess and Maclean."
Less than three months after granting asylum to National Security Agency leaker Edward Snowden, Russia is preparing to implement the kind of electronic surveillance that Snowden uncovered in the U.S.
And you must admit that Snowden is in contact with FSB officials. (The FSB was formerly the KGB.)
If he had accepted the answer from his chain of command instead of going rogue it would have worked better for him, don't you think?/!sarcasm
Had he done that he could be protesting, engaging in the political process, and working through the media to express his views. He could even get that sex change he wants. Not much chance for that now for about 30 years, is there?
Right. If it's only 60 Americans, why are you building a massive data center in Utah?
Because the data from a planet with nearly 200 countries full of radar, radios, telephones, networks, satellites, armies, navies, air forces, terrorists, insurgents, and other sources of electronic signals has to go somewhere? Isn't that obvious, or is it narcissism?
I think you've largely nailed it. I will add that they have court decisions on their side since the metadata is considered ordinary business records. Don't like it? Write your Congressman to try to get the law changed.
Yes, but if you actually key off of the terrorists, what does that do to the map? Make it much smaller I would expect, and your answer indicates. The terrorists will be the ones tending to talk to other terrorists, and that is what they are looking for.
But don't worry, there'll be plenty more opportunities in the future. With Snowden providing a roadmap of how to avoid detection, more of them will be successful. You'll get bonus points if your travel is outside the US since most of the plots NSA helped to foil were outside the US, and now that may not happen. It will take a couple of years to really see the effect, so relax, you have all the time in the world.
Never asked the obvious questions. "If you really aren't storing all our emails and phone calls, then why do you need to build a new $1.5 billion facility to hold exabytes of data storage? Either you're lying or you're guilty of a SERIOUS misappropriation of funds. So which is it?"
So you think that there is no chance that spying on a meaningful subset of the communications of 200 nations, including radars, military communications, etc., would produce data needing to be stored? Maybe the problem isn't that they are lying, or that there is a "misappropriation of funds" so much as many of NSA's critics aren't very thoughtful or informed? There are certainly reasons to be concerned, but this? Nonsense.
The "LIVEINT" "scandal" is the result of 1 (one) employee per year out of ~ 40,000 losing control and spying on a love interest. It isn't policy, it isn't approved of. The person so involved gets disciplined or fired. I think your post is disingenuous to suggest otherwise.
So an organization whose existence is predicated on lying...
No, their organization is predicated on saying nothing, on keeping things secret while they go about their work as an intelligence agency. That is an entirely different thing, and you should know that. So why do you misstate it? Pot calling the kettle black?
Either the NSA is staffed by utter morons, or they think we are the utter morons.
They don't have to think "we" are "utter morons," since some people volunteer for the label by spreading nonsense and lies themselves.
Ya, because he'd rather spend the rest of his life a fugitive, essentially exiled from his home country and family under fear of rotting in solitary confinement in a military prison without charge. He'd rather do this than simply follow the perfectly effective checks and balances this completely innocent organization is government by.
How stupid do they think we are?
Immensely, if you don't realize that other people have done very similar things for ideological reasons, or the demands of their ego. Kim Philby, for example. And like Lee Harvey Oswald, who also went to Russia, it appears that Snowden acted alone.
It has a great deal to do with the question of legality. I would say that most of the posts on the matter condemn the NSA for allegedly breaking the law (including the Constitution). That appears to be demonstrably untrue overall, at least as far as policy goes. Is it wrong to spy on al Qaida, or Hezbollah? What about the Chinese military? I think your ethical stand could probably use some refinement. Or do you think it is ethical to take no action to prevent attacks on civilians, or the conquest of friendly nations?
20,122: How many new missiles is Russia deploying to threaten Europe following implementation of the missile defenses against Iran? 20,123: Is China using radar, missiles, or fighters to police the newly declared "air defense zone" over Japanese territory? 20,124: Are there indications of Syria diverting chemical weapons away from disposal to be hidden for future use?
"Snowden never approached any of multiple Inspectors General, supervisors, or Congressional oversight committee members about his concerns."
And how would they expect that to be responded to if he did? "Keep your mouth shut if you know what's good for you."
How about something like: Thank you for sharing your concerns, let us look into that.......... OK, here is the story. That program is authorized under this law, and a judge oversees that aspect of it. The 4th Amendment of the Constitution isn't the only part of the Constitution that applies, nor is it the only law that applies. Supreme Court decisions have clarified the application of the 4th Amendment to situations like this in the following manner..........
But I suppose you reject that and think that stealing 1.7 million documents to be handed out where foreign intelligence services can get their hands on them is the appropriate response. If so, you don't really have much faith in democracy.
My thoughts exactly, to that end it seems now the thing to do is to discredit Snowden who I consider a true patriot.
If Snowden is a patriot in your eyes then surely he is a unique patriot. What other "patriot" can you think of that left the country where he performed his "patriotic act" and now has a constant guard of KGB officers (FSB) to protect him? Ah, the key is you left out the word "American." So you don't regard him as an American patriot, but to use your words, as someone who worked to "expose what the NSA was up to to the world." So in your mind patriots steal American intelligence information and release it to the world. Based on your account name and post, British Leftist I presume?
The fact that he wasn't motivated by money isn't necessarily creditable to him. Many foul deeds have been done for ideological reasons. Snowden's acts resemble nothing so much as those of Kim Philby who betrayed Britain and fled to Russia where he was feted and revealed to be a KGB officer. Snowden is the Philby of our day, having not only harmed American intelligence, but also visiting the worst ever loss for British intelligence. (You can probably add Australia to that as well.) Nobody should be surprised if he meets a similar end to Philby.
Now here is something interesting, it may be that the ones to feel the eventual sting coming from this massive loss of intelligence information won't be Americans, but mainly people in other countries. The NSA revealed that it has had a hand in foiling 50 terrorist plots worldwide, and few of those were in the US. Terrorist groups have already started to exploit the information that Snowden leaked by changing tactics to avoid detection. Now they are in a better position to carry out their plans over the next several years - and that is the timeframe for many of their plans: years. The real party hasn't even started yet. That means more bombs exploding overseas. Will it be another London bombing, or Madrid, or one of thousands of other examples? Will the next plot in Germany or Sweden succeed and kill hundreds? Only time will tell. One thing seems likely - in the future various people are likely to look back at Snowden's leaks and think to themselves, "It seemed like something to cheer.... at the time." Of course now it is too late. Snowden's existing and future leaks will have committed us to a future he chose in an undemocratic, vigilante fashion. Who voted for Snowden to oversee this? Nobody. But you will get to live with the consequences none the less - he chose for you, not even consulting you or your representative in government/parliament/ legislature. Perhaps the most ironic thing is that Snowden is now living in Russia, and the Russians are using information he leaked to upgrade their internal surveillance apparatus to make it more effective. Snowden has been hoisted on his own petard.
Well, if someday you are in the tube on the way to a football match, or in a pub enjoying a game of darts with some friends, and an extremist with a suicide vest that slipped by busy MI5 agents comes in and detonates himself, you'll know who may have helped the Jihadi avoid detection.
Slashdot Mirror
Need to register for your mandated insurance? Start -> HHS Health Bob
Obvious Bill could see this coming.
Bill Gates says Microsoft Bob will make a comeback
Well, to be fair, it isn't just Congress, the regulatory agencies like EPA get involved in the act too.
Will we get it by magic? No! By regulation!
Probably a good thing. Using corn or other edible crops has been linked to rising food prices that have been painful in the third world, the US, and Europe.
Record Food Prices Linked to Biofuels
How biofuels contribute to the food crisis
Biofuel rule puts turkey farmers in fret over corn costs
EU votes on crucial cap on biofuels made from food crops
There are other ways to do it.
'Biofuel from non-food crops within 15 years'
U.S. to Pay Farmers for Non-Food Crops for Biofuels, Vilsack Says
Quest for cheap, nonfood biofuel starts with a brewery
Of course it may not be popular is some states.
Don't worry, it actually works both ways.
So, the "big money" isn't in putting multiple freaking surveillance satellites into orbit, or engaging in surveillance of a meaningful subset of the 200 countries on the planet, countries with radars, radios, telephones, data communications, pretty much all of which is overseas and of potential interest to NSA? The money is in getting electronic copies of phone bills and hanging on to them for five years?
By the numbers: The NSA's super-secret spy program, PRISM
$20 million: The annual cost of PRISM.
$8 billion: The estimated annual budget of the NSA.
You do realize that they are doing this electronically, and not with 100,000 file clerks and a warehouse of file cabinets?
I don't think you quite have that dialed in.
That isn't simply false, it is a lie. Iraq manufactured it own WMDs after developing them with Egypt. They used them against Iran during the Iraq-Iran war in the 1980s, and killed or injured many people. It took a decade of effort to disarm Iraq of its WMDs after the 1991 Gulf War as they were repeatedly caught lying and cheating. (Taking notes?)
The US doesn't need an invasion so much as you seemingly need medication or therapy. Since you repeatedly reference the superior healthcare system of the country you've gone to live in after leaving the US I would assume that shouldn't be a problem.
That's funny, I don't see you making an argument or presenting any facts. I take it you're all out for the moment? Then why post? You don't seem to be doing anything useful.
Not that I will necessarily agree with the AC, but you wouldn't deny that the Russians, Chinese, Iranians, Cubans, al Qaida, and others, have access to the same Top Secret American, British, Australian, and Canadian documents leaked by Snowden that have found their way either into print or onto the web, would you? So that means that they assuredly have at least some of those Top Secret documents. That is before we get to the question of the already many and growing number of businesses (many newspapers, web sites, etc.) that have those documents, and the question of have been able to provide adequate security to prevent them from falling into the hand of nation states with sophisticated intelligence agencies that don't have to follow the niceties of American or British law such as Russian or Chinese agents operating overseas. Maybe you've heard, but Russian agents have assassinated people in the UK before. A little breaking and entering or other more subtle intelligence gathering would be inconsequential to them. And that is probably all it would take for them to get the complete trove of documents. That is assuming that they would even have to do that, that they don't have moles in those papers now. I'm pretty sure that newspapers and TV stations don't conduct 10-20 year background checks of their employees similar to those for Top Secret clearances (even if they are sometimes "imperfectly" done as they were in Snowden's case).
Experts Doubt Snowden Could Keep His Leaked Documents Safe From Spies
There is reason to doubt Edward Snowden’s claim that Russian or Chinese spies have not seen the NSA files he leaked.
.
In an interview with the New York Times published yesterday, document-leaking NSA contractor Edward Snowden made a bold claim in response to allegations that other nations may have got hold of his classified haul:
“There’s a zero percent chance the Russians or Chinese have received any documents.”
Many security and surveillance experts publicly questioned that claim. Google security engineer Justin Schuh tweeted that the remark showed “Snowden is divorced from reality,”
Now we can also add to that the fact that the UK government assesses the secrets that Snowden stole to have fallen into the hands of foreign intelligence agencies. I seem to recall that NSA, or at least some of its leaders, have a similar assessment.
Snowden leaks 'worst ever loss to British intelligence'
Sir David, the former head of the UK's communications surveillance centre GCHQ, told the Times: "You have to distinguish between the original whistleblowing intent to get a debate going, which is a responsible thing to do, and the stealing of 58,000 top-secret British security documents and who knows how many American documents, which is seriously, seriously damaging.
"The assumption the experts are working on is that all that information or almost all of it will now be in the hands of Moscow and Beijing.
"It's the most catastrophic loss to British intelligence ever, much worse than Burgess and Maclean."
You can also see the Russian response.
Snowden Inspires Russia to Boost Internet Spying
Less than three months after granting asylum to National Security Agency leaker Edward Snowden, Russia is preparing to implement the kind of electronic surveillance that Snowden uncovered in the U.S.
And you must admit that Snowden is in contact with FSB officials. (The FSB was formerly the KGB.)
It's Now Clear That
If he had accepted the answer from his chain of command instead of going rogue it would have worked better for him, don't you think? /!sarcasm
Had he done that he could be protesting, engaging in the political process, and working through the media to express his views. He could even get that sex change he wants. Not much chance for that now for about 30 years, is there?
Right. If it's only 60 Americans, why are you building a massive data center in Utah?
Because the data from a planet with nearly 200 countries full of radar, radios, telephones, networks, satellites, armies, navies, air forces, terrorists, insurgents, and other sources of electronic signals has to go somewhere? Isn't that obvious, or is it narcissism?
I think you've largely nailed it. I will add that they have court decisions on their side since the metadata is considered ordinary business records. Don't like it? Write your Congressman to try to get the law changed.
Yes, but if you actually key off of the terrorists, what does that do to the map? Make it much smaller I would expect, and your answer indicates. The terrorists will be the ones tending to talk to other terrorists, and that is what they are looking for.
The people like cold fjord who would continually piss themselves over "Mooslem" boogeymen without Big Brother tucking them in at night.
Your views are a bit stunted, you should travel more.
Wichita Airport Technician Charged With Terrorist Plot - December 13, 2013
But don't worry, there'll be plenty more opportunities in the future. With Snowden providing a roadmap of how to avoid detection, more of them will be successful. You'll get bonus points if your travel is outside the US since most of the plots NSA helped to foil were outside the US, and now that may not happen. It will take a couple of years to really see the effect, so relax, you have all the time in the world.
That is only for the CIA Directorate of Operations test. Trying that on the NSA test will totally blow your chances.
Never asked the obvious questions. "If you really aren't storing all our emails and phone calls, then why do you need to build a new $1.5 billion facility to hold exabytes of data storage? Either you're lying or you're guilty of a SERIOUS misappropriation of funds. So which is it?"
So you think that there is no chance that spying on a meaningful subset of the communications of 200 nations, including radars, military communications, etc., would produce data needing to be stored? Maybe the problem isn't that they are lying, or that there is a "misappropriation of funds" so much as many of NSA's critics aren't very thoughtful or informed? There are certainly reasons to be concerned, but this? Nonsense.
The "LIVEINT" "scandal" is the result of 1 (one) employee per year out of ~ 40,000 losing control and spying on a love interest. It isn't policy, it isn't approved of. The person so involved gets disciplined or fired. I think your post is disingenuous to suggest otherwise.
So an organization whose existence is predicated on lying...
No, their organization is predicated on saying nothing, on keeping things secret while they go about their work as an intelligence agency. That is an entirely different thing, and you should know that. So why do you misstate it? Pot calling the kettle black?
Either the NSA is staffed by utter morons, or they think we are the utter morons.
They don't have to think "we" are "utter morons," since some people volunteer for the label by spreading nonsense and lies themselves.
Sounds like he was channeling Joseph Smith.
Very apt, if I say so. Snowden certainly does have his own cult* following.
*No disrespect to LDS intended.
Ya, because he'd rather spend the rest of his life a fugitive, essentially exiled from his home country and family under fear of rotting in solitary confinement in a military prison without charge. He'd rather do this than simply follow the perfectly effective checks and balances this completely innocent organization is government by.
How stupid do they think we are?
Immensely, if you don't realize that other people have done very similar things for ideological reasons, or the demands of their ego. Kim Philby, for example. And like Lee Harvey Oswald, who also went to Russia, it appears that Snowden acted alone.
It has a great deal to do with the question of legality. I would say that most of the posts on the matter condemn the NSA for allegedly breaking the law (including the Constitution). That appears to be demonstrably untrue overall, at least as far as policy goes. Is it wrong to spy on al Qaida, or Hezbollah? What about the Chinese military? I think your ethical stand could probably use some refinement. Or do you think it is ethical to take no action to prevent attacks on civilians, or the conquest of friendly nations?
Those 31,000 requests are things like:
20,122: How many new missiles is Russia deploying to threaten Europe following implementation of the missile defenses against Iran?
20,123: Is China using radar, missiles, or fighters to police the newly declared "air defense zone" over Japanese territory?
20,124: Are there indications of Syria diverting chemical weapons away from disposal to be hidden for future use?
They don't need a warrant for that.
Moderation: -1 Not ( anti-American | anti-British )
1. There is no proof that he hacked.
Erasing log files to cover his tracks qualifies, as would the social engineering.
2. Again, hacking - copying.
He stole data that he was not authorized to have.
"Snowden never approached any of multiple Inspectors General, supervisors, or Congressional oversight committee members about his concerns."
And how would they expect that to be responded to if he did? "Keep your mouth shut if you know what's good for you."
How about something like: Thank you for sharing your concerns, let us look into that .......... OK, here is the story. That program is authorized under this law, and a judge oversees that aspect of it. The 4th Amendment of the Constitution isn't the only part of the Constitution that applies, nor is it the only law that applies. Supreme Court decisions have clarified the application of the 4th Amendment to situations like this in the following manner ..........
But I suppose you reject that and think that stealing 1.7 million documents to be handed out where foreign intelligence services can get their hands on them is the appropriate response. If so, you don't really have much faith in democracy.
My thoughts exactly, to that end it seems now the thing to do is to discredit Snowden who I consider a true patriot.
If Snowden is a patriot in your eyes then surely he is a unique patriot. What other "patriot" can you think of that left the country where he performed his "patriotic act" and now has a constant guard of KGB officers (FSB) to protect him? Ah, the key is you left out the word "American." So you don't regard him as an American patriot, but to use your words, as someone who worked to "expose what the NSA was up to to the world." So in your mind patriots steal American intelligence information and release it to the world. Based on your account name and post, British Leftist I presume?
The fact that he wasn't motivated by money isn't necessarily creditable to him. Many foul deeds have been done for ideological reasons. Snowden's acts resemble nothing so much as those of Kim Philby who betrayed Britain and fled to Russia where he was feted and revealed to be a KGB officer. Snowden is the Philby of our day, having not only harmed American intelligence, but also visiting the worst ever loss for British intelligence. (You can probably add Australia to that as well.) Nobody should be surprised if he meets a similar end to Philby.
Now here is something interesting, it may be that the ones to feel the eventual sting coming from this massive loss of intelligence information won't be Americans, but mainly people in other countries. The NSA revealed that it has had a hand in foiling 50 terrorist plots worldwide, and few of those were in the US. Terrorist groups have already started to exploit the information that Snowden leaked by changing tactics to avoid detection. Now they are in a better position to carry out their plans over the next several years - and that is the timeframe for many of their plans: years. The real party hasn't even started yet. That means more bombs exploding overseas. Will it be another London bombing, or Madrid, or one of thousands of other examples? Will the next plot in Germany or Sweden succeed and kill hundreds? Only time will tell. One thing seems likely - in the future various people are likely to look back at Snowden's leaks and think to themselves, "It seemed like something to cheer.... at the time." Of course now it is too late. Snowden's existing and future leaks will have committed us to a future he chose in an undemocratic, vigilante fashion. Who voted for Snowden to oversee this? Nobody. But you will get to live with the consequences none the less - he chose for you, not even consulting you or your representative in government/parliament/ legislature. Perhaps the most ironic thing is that Snowden is now living in Russia, and the Russians are using information he leaked to upgrade their internal surveillance apparatus to make it more effective. Snowden has been hoisted on his own petard.
Well, if someday you are in the tube on the way to a football match, or in a pub enjoying a game of darts with some friends, and an extremist with a suicide vest that slipped by busy MI5 agents comes in and detonates himself, you'll know who may have helped the Jihadi avoid detection.
Cheers.