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NSA Says It Foiled Plot To Destroy US Economy Through Malware

mrspoonsi writes "Business Insider Reports: The National Security Agency described for the first time a cataclysmic cyber threat it claims to have stopped On Sunday's '60 Minutes.' Called a BIOS attack, the exploit would have ruined, or 'bricked,' computers across the country, causing untold damage to the national and even global economy. Even more shocking, CBS goes as far as to point a finger directly at China for the plot — 'While the NSA would not name the country behind it, cyber security experts briefed on the operation told us it was China.' The NSA says it closed this vulnerability by working with computer manufacturers. Debora Plunkett, director of cyber defense for the NSA: One of our analysts actually saw that the nation state had the intention to develop and to deliver — to actually use this capability — to destroy computers."

698 comments

  1. NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by fractoid · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...and subprime lending really DID destroy the U.S. economy.

    --
    Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
    1. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And Iraq had WMDs. And the NSA never lied to congress or the people... how stupid do they think we are?

    2. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by mellon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The attack being described probably would have been worse. And if the NSA stopped it, that's great—they should get credit and appreciation for that. This is exactly what the NSA _should_ be doing. It's too bad that they have spent so much focus on stuff _other_ than this. People forget that the NSA has actually done a _lot_ over the past century that has been of extreme benefit, because they have done so many inappropriate things recently. It would be really great if we could get back to the old NSA.

    3. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Desler · · Score: 1

      Lies! Iraq had WMDs! Didn't you see the 3D renderings of the mobile port-potties that Saddam had?!?

    4. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I never received a BIOS firmware update to patch the alleged vulnerability. I apply every patch or update reported via the Ubuntu Linux repository on my notebook computer and by Debian GNU/Linux repository on my servers. Even the virtual instance of Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium did not provide a BIOS firmware update.

    5. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by afxgrin · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's a fucking propaganda piece. It's quite easy to see right through the bullshit.

      If a BIOS exploiting malware was a real threat where's the CVE for it? Where's the advisory?? A BIOS crippling virus released into the wild has no need for secrecy unless the NSA themselves released it. It's quite convenient they mention they thwarted a "major cyber attack" without releasing the name of the virus nor when this supposedly happened.

      What a fucking joke that entire interview was....

    6. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Cenan · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This is exactly what the NSA _should_ be doing. It's too bad that they have spent so much focus on stuff _other_ than this.

      Which begs the question, how come this was not among the first things touted as their reason for being? How come this was not mentioned before Congress? Or to the media? How come this whole thing sounds utterly made up?

      --
      ... whatever ...
    7. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, firmware updates are generally not distributed through the OS update systems.

    8. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Desler · · Score: 5, Informative

      Recently? The intelligence agencies were doing all manner of inappropriate things throughout the 50s, 60s and in the 70s until the Church Committee was created to investigate. Their gross abuses of power during those decades was the entire point of why the FISA legislation was passed. And it was not to create the rubber-stamp court that we have now.

      It's amazing how 9/11 has made so many people forget the rampant abuse of power in the NSA's and CIA's history.

    9. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by paiute · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      That is not begging the question, unless you are being rhetorical, then it might be.

      --
      If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
    10. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The attack being described probably would have been worse. And if the NSA stopped it, that's great—they should get credit and appreciation for that. This is exactly what the NSA _should_ be doing. It's too bad that they have spent so much focus on stuff _other_ than this. People forget that the NSA has actually done a _lot_ over the past century that has been of extreme benefit, because they have done so many inappropriate things recently. It would be really great if we could get back to the old NSA.

      And harvesting metadata on every domestic telephone call defeated this nefarious BIOS plot how???

    11. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by mellon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Because there's a shit-ton of money in pervasive surveillance, and a lot less of it in doing what the NSA should be doing.

    12. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by mellon · · Score: 2

      I'm not saying the NSA never did anything wrong prior to 9/11, but their remit was a lot more restrained. This is not to say that they wouldn't have done more if they'd had the resources, but really Moore's law is what's turned them into the juggernaut they are today.

    13. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Learn what the fuck a BIOS update is before you comment on it.

    14. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by LVSlushdat · · Score: 4, Insightful

      ... how stupid do they think we are?

      You don't want to know just how stupid *they* think we are.. And the really sad part?? *They* are absolutely right on a large percentage of the American people.. The ones who drink the koolaide that comes from BOTH parties.. Its becoming apparent that none of the media, better known now as the defacto US Department of Propaganda, is telling the truth.. oh sure, they tell *their* "version" of the "truth", but not the TRUTH.. We are well and truly screwed...

      --
      THANK YOU, Edward Snowden!! Americans owe you a debt of gratitude (whether they know it or not..)
    15. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by gweihir · · Score: 1

      But I am sure they stopped Godzilla! Or they stopped Godzilla from buying any subprime papers anyways....

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    16. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by gmuslera · · Score: 1

      Look at the approval for their programs. Is not what they think, is what they know about how stupid and easily manipulable the average american is. I bet in next "elections" will win one of the 2 parties that bring the current situation on, if you want a further proof of average IQ.

    17. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by jedidiah · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The attack being described is nonsense, especially if China was supposed to be the perpetrator. Undermining the US economy is really the LAST thing the Chinese would want to do. It makes no sense from a business perspective.

      North Korea would have made a much better scapegoat.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    18. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I ALSO stopped a plot to destroy the U.S. economy. With computers and stuff.

    19. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Every day I thwart a global disaster by not releasing my BIOS exploit. Where's my prize??

    20. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by number6x · · Score: 5, Funny

      The NSA probably commissioned some vendor to write a key-logger that would install in a computer's BIOS. They probably paid billions of dollars for development and research.

      Then they tested it on a few computers and the NSA malware bricked them all.

      So the NSA canceled the project, saving America from a malware threat that would have tanked the economy. See how diligently they work to save Americans from cyber threats?

      Next week they'll stimulate the economy by breaking everyone's windows (pun intended).

    21. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Posting AC, although I wish for an "Advocatus Diaboli" button:

      If the US had a propaganda department, it sure isn't working. Look at the morale of the population. Look at the government mistrust, and the pushback against the ACA.

      Other countries have far better effect on the US people. Take China for example. It is common for people in the US believe that China has risen to the point where they have far better technology, and the peasant in the rice paddy has been replaced by the 1950s American middle class person.

      Regardless of the truth, the NSA will not get credit. If they did stop a malware attack, most Americans won't believe it. If they didn't, I'm sure they wouldn't bother trying to appeal to a dubious populace.

      Plus, the evidence is in their favor. All and all, most operating systems have had some hardening done by them to reduce attack surface, be it BSDs, Linux's SELinux, or the multiple access contexts in Windows. A malware attack against a soft infrastructure would do a lot of damage, so someone, somewhere probably has done work to keep things working.

      But what do I know... I'm just a dumb AC, emphasis on the "C" part of the abbreviation.

    22. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      subprime lending had nothing to do with destroying the economy. theres been plenty written about what did by people not employed by AEI, fox news or CNBC. you can start here - http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2013/12/fannie-mae-didnt-cause-crisis/

    23. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You need to understand there are two modern usages of that phrase, and they mean different things.

      Begging the question is a logical fallacy. If something begs the question, it means "you really need to then ask this question".

      They are entirely different things, and you can read more here.

      If you're going to be a pedant, at least be right.

    24. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, technically, Iraq did have chemical weapons, which are technically WMDs. But the public was lead to believe that he was three days away from nuking every city in the world. All the inspectors sent in were searching for evidence of nuclear material. Which they failed to find.

      So no, Iraq never had the weapons of mass destruction that we alleged, and they were never a threat to the US or any other country who's job it is not ours to protect from Cold War-era chemical weapons.

    25. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by number6x · · Score: 1

      BIOS updates won't come from an OS distributor, but from the laptop manufacturer.

      There are multiple ways of installing them, depending on your OS. Linux can use the distribution's software update system, but that is rare. Dell did this for the first 2 years after I bought a 1420n from them with Linux installed. There haven't been any updates since 2009. There are instructions from Dell here.

      For the most part, you have to download a windows .exe from the manufacturer's website, boot off of a windows rescue disk or usb image and execute the .exe to install. Check your manufacturer's web site, or use Google to find out if you can update from Linux.

    26. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by fred911 · · Score: 1

      The only BIOS virus I've ever seen was CIH which knocked out quite a few dead end users BIOS'. You either reflashed the EPROM or they bought another motherboard. That's the first time I've ever seen real damage to firmware from a virus or Trojan. Has there been others?

      --
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    27. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by TimHunter · · Score: 0
      Thanks for the link, but I think it proves that paiute is correct.

      Many English speakers use "begs the question" to mean "raises the question", "evades the question", or even "ignores the question", and follow that phrase with the question, for example: "this year's deficit is half a trillion dollars, which begs the question: how are we ever going to balance the budget?" In philosophical, logical, grammatical and legal contexts, authorities deem such usage to be mistaken or at best unclear.

    28. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Sounds like a Keynesian's wet dream!

    29. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And Iraq had WMDs. And the NSA never lied to congress or the people... how stupid do they think we are?

      The Iraq-has-WMD intel was from the CIA. Not that the NSA doesn't lie a lot, but at least point at the lies they did make.

    30. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by TWiTfan · · Score: 2

      People forget that the NSA has actually done a _lot_ over the past century that has been of extreme benefit

      Pray tell, remind us of some of these many incredible accomplishments, please. Or all they all SECRET?

      --
      The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
    31. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Runaway1956 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      More accurately, Iraq had a lot of chemical weapons in the 1980's, and we stood idly by while Saddam expended them. When I say "we", I mean that very literally, and very personally. I was there, along with my shipmates, to see it happening. We helped to document it. We stood idly by while Saddam expended huge quantities of chemical weapons.

      By 2002, when we decided that Sadman was so very sad that we had to do something about him, he had very little to nothing left.

      Our governments (US and UK) knew very well what Saddam had, and what Saddam was capable of. Our governments exaggerated everything by orders of magnitude, and bald faced LIED TO US. Those truckloads of stuff that went to Syria? Probably some bad stuff. Most of it was far more likely to have been plundered treasures, destined to ensure a life of security, if not ease, for certain select people dear to Sadman.

      But, you go on believing the propaganda.

      You will note, I hope, that I've said nothing in Saddam Hussein's defense. I have ONLY pointed out how dishonest our own governments are.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    32. Re: NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by peragrin · · Score: 2

      Next up NSA saves companies from being "slashdotted"

      Now I wonder what the NSA will save us from after that? If we are lucky maybe fake entertainment stories posted by fox and msnbc that pose as news

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    33. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...and don't forget the realestate bubble, which they are busily trying to re-create....

      I smell a dirty psycho PR campaign here... lotta questionable talk along with zero facts...

    34. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He was being a pedant. He was also right.

    35. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Kwyj1b0 · · Score: 1

      When you have plenty of other things you can pick from ("The IRS didn't pick on certain political groups" or "It wasn't Al Queda, it was random people on the street upset about a YouTube video!" or "You can keep your health insurance, period"), why trot out this one?

      True, but the impact of the lies are not all equivalent. The OP went for the most dramatic (and slashdot leaning) approach. But the lie about WMDs (and yes, misleading people with the truth is still a lie in my book - might not be technically a lie, but it sure is a scumbag move) resulted in far worse damages than the IRS "scandal" or stupid statements made by clueless politicians.

    36. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Phreakiture · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It is entirely possible that they did, indeed, halt a plot, just as they said they did. It is also possible they did not. It's very difficult to tell at this point, because the one thing of which I am sure of, and I speculate most Americans are as well, is that they lie and they do it without hesitation. My confidence in anything they say is near enough to zero that the difference can be written off as rounding error.

      As a consequence, it really does not matter what they say.

      --
      www.wavefront-av.com
    37. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by dAzED1 · · Score: 1

      "People forget that the NSA has actually done a _lot_ over the past century..." - it's easy to forget such a thing, since they've only been around for a half century. Hopefully you'll forgive us for that.

    38. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In philosophical, logical, grammatical and legal contexts, authorities deem such usage to be mistaken or at best unclear.

      Well, in places where that specificity is required, maybe.

      But in almost all other contexts, people do not use it that way. Language is fluid and evolves, and the vast majority of people will never find themselves worrying about someone "begging the question", but lots of things "beg a question be asked".

      But it's been in common usage for literally decades, and is probably used more often than the original term.

    39. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Runaway1956 · · Score: 2

      You want to know how? I'll tell you how. They overheard me talking with this genius I know, and they came to my house to ask me about his virus. I told them all I knew when they threatened me with a five dollar wrench. Their next stop was at my buddy's house, where they recruited him to work for the NSA. Me? All I got was the liberty to keep using my knees. Bastards didn't even buy me a beer. And, my buddy has forgotten my name. So, yeah, I guess it's good for all of you that the NSA monitors people like me and my buddy.

      To bad I didn't understand how the virus worked - they might have offered me a job too!

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    40. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Etherwalk · · Score: 2

      Assuming (and it's a big assumption) that it is true, there are several reasons it might not have come up until now:

      (1) The judicial review of the constitutionality of the programs means they will have to disclose some serious stuff they've prevented or else they're out of a job.

      (2) If the "report" is accurate, which seems unlikely (because it would be a really STUPID thing for China to do unless there is a war), you're talking about an act of war committed by one nuclear power on another. That's not something you dick around with by sharing it with the public, especially not without vetting and appropriate spin from the Chain of Command, all the way up to POTUS.

    41. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by SuricouRaven · · Score: 4, Funny

      That's what you get for outsourcing your propaganda to the private sector.

    42. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Runaway1956 · · Score: 2

      Oh, don't be silly. Don't you remember that other infamous virus that the NSA thwarted? The one which caused your hard drive to melt down, and your monitor to assplode? THAT one was North Korean!

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    43. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by dAzED1 · · Score: 4, Funny

      you don't understand - they secretly patched everyone's machines, so now we're all safe. It's all good!

    44. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 0

      Except of course for the fact that the words themselves (not the traditional way they are used to describe a logical fallacy), actually do mean a form "raises the question". People complain all the time about English phrases that do not mean what they appear to mean. In this case, people complain when people use a phrase to mean what it appears to mean. The traditional meaning of the phrase "begs the question" makes no logical sense when one looks at the actual meaning of the individual words.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    45. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by oldwarrior · · Score: 0

      >>> how stupid do they think we are?
      They only need >50.0% of the votes. See Nov 2008 and Nov 2012.

      --
      If it were done when 'tis done, then t'were well it were done quickly... MacBeth
    46. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 1

      Apparently, we are pretty stupid if we don't understand the difference between the CIA and the NSA.

      --
      Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
    47. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by mrchaotica · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Regardless of the truth, the NSA will not get credit. If they did stop a malware attack, most Americans won't believe it. If they didn't, I'm sure they wouldn't bother trying to appeal to a dubious populace.

      I'll happily believe the NSA stopped the malware attack in question, and I'll happily give them credit for it.

      However, it does not give them even a single tiny shred of excuse for all the unconstitutional totalitarian treason, for which I will continue to call for their prosecution.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    48. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by TangoMargarine · · Score: 2

      Weapons of Mass Destruction != Nukes. WMD *includes* nukes, as well as chemical and biological weapons and probably other stuff I'm not aware of. The fact that people conflate the terms changes nothing.

      --
      Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
    49. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      My mother once said, "He would lie when the truth would sound a whole lot better." Regards a really determined liar.
      My bet is that this claim of defending us against cyber attacks is about as real as all those 50-60 terrorist attacks they stopped and which Clapper under oath diminished to approximately 1. (Translation NONE!)

      We are looking at an institution that has lived so long behind a lie that its character is entirely known. The NSA is beyond evil and they can no longer cover that fact up. Now they are left with the final terrorist claim that if you fight me the hostage dies. They say if we don't defend you the terrorists will get you! (Read boogy man) In reality this is a public disclosure by the NSA that they are in fact the chief terrorist organization on earth.

    50. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Greyfox · · Score: 1
      --

      I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

    51. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Bartles · · Score: 1

      The ACA has affected me and many other people far more than the WOT ever did. The lies just make the effect more like a slap in the face. I don't like it when my government slaps me in the face. It tends to make me want to revoke my consent to be governed.

    52. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Don't say "both parties" like we're talking about dishonesty across the political spectrum, here. The Democratic and Republican Party are, to quote Ralph Nader, two factions of the Corporate Party. Everything in the United States body politik is so skewed to the right that even the right of center Democratic Party is thought by some to be "left" or "liberal." There is no objective measure of the political spectrum that supports such an assessment.

    53. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by zifn4b · · Score: 1

      And Iraq had WMDs. And the NSA never lied to congress or the people... how stupid do they think we are?

      Since this is slashdot let's apply mathematical induction to your proposition. One lie is either bad or inconclusive but two or more lies are good. The fact that we argue to prove this is what makes us stupid and enables us to be tricked over and over and over again by our leaders.

      --
      We'll make great pets
    54. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They know how stupid you are. They spy on you.

      How do you think they know they can lie to Congress and get away with it.

    55. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, as I said, that is all technically very true. And that ignorance is what sold the war. From Bush's State of the Union: The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa. Then it's all talk about generic WMDs. The issue was framed in a way to make it seem that the WMDs in question were nukes. And that is very dishonest (honesty is not synonymous with the truth).

      By the way, even the pressure cooker bombs used in the Boston Marathon bombing classified as WMDs (at least for the purposes of the DA to ensure a "10,000 years in prison + 100 life sentences + 1 death by lethal injection" sentence). I highly suspect that Mexico has the capacity to build pressure cooker bombs (and probably sometimes has used similar devices), but I don't see the will to invade. But even using a more specific term like NBCR would have been misleading and dishonest if it were started off talking about Radiological weapons and suddenly switched to talking about Biological weapons without bothering to mention that fact.

    56. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by wiredlogic · · Score: 1

      Even if a vulnerability was secretly closed there is still more than enough existing legacy hardware on the internet to make a worthwhile target for an attacker. BIOS updates don't get applied automatically so any threat that could exist still exists.

      --
      I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
    57. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by number11 · · Score: 1

      Weapons of Mass Destruction != Nukes. WMD *includes* nukes, as well as chemical and biological weapons and probably other stuff I'm not aware of. The fact that people conflate the terms changes nothing.

      Quite true. Under US law, "WMD" includes any rifle with a bore larger than 0.50", and anything explosive for use against persons or property, including hand grenades. So of course Saddam's army had WMDs.

    58. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by rourin_bushi · · Score: 2

      I think more to the point... it sounds like what they did was find the vulnerability that they'd detected some folks working really hard on an exploit to, and worked with industry to close it. While good for the country (and probably me individually), I'd hardly call it "foiling a plot".

      Frankly, I have a hard time believing that China was really just about to try to destroy the economy of such a large trading partner.

    59. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by freax · · Score: 1

      By the way. For having done exactly this we in Belgium expect the British government to pay for expenses made to clean up their secret services' illegal bricking of Belgacom's servers. The estimated cost so far is 15 million Euros. UK, please do pay up.

    60. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by onepoint · · Score: 1

      While you are correct about CIH, there have been some documented spyware cases that attach to the BIOS ...
      I am trying to recall the advertiser that had figured out the way to attach a "do-not-stored or keep info" cookie via the BIOS back in 2008 ( give or take a year ).
      I keep thinking it's that pop-up ad for a camera.

      a BIOS virus seems simple enough to create, but I would think that no nation would execute it, due to the fact that if it spreads, they get infected to. Very High Risk, with minimal rewards.

      --
      if you see me, smile and say hello.
    61. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by bickerdyke · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Learn to READ before comment!

      His point was that he never installed a BIOS update, because it isn't delivered through regular OS update channels.

      As probably everyone here hasn't installed a BIOS update if your system is running without problems.

      But he (and no one here) suffered from no mystery-chinese BIOS attack. So how could the NSA have done that mystery feat? Protecting a nation from BIOS attacks withiout making sure that BIOSes are updated?

      Makes this whole story sound quite unbelievable. More like "Wag the dog"-like spin-doctoring.

      --
      bickerdyke
    62. Re: NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      They could work on Paul Anca and that Bieber weirdo. Hell, they're not even American

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    63. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They have prevented an attack on america, kind of like the Underware bomber, or the idiot they caught in Tulsa? Right? Why can they not protect me from google ads, Especially the one that says update your bios here? Get so tired of the monetization of the web. But yes, that could have been an attempt by pheonix, or intel to get everyone to buy a new computer for christmas. You know fry the bios, need new one... ,

    64. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It would be great if we got back to not needing an NSA.

    65. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by benjfowler · · Score: 1

      You're assuming that people are rational economic actors.

      Look at China's track record of allowing senior military leaders to say hawkish things in public -- it's obvious for every person out there who thinks they're a rational economic actor, there is somebody who who thinks completely with their dick.

    66. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

      Yep, dishonesty. After the Cold War, I suppose it's not surprising people have nukes on the brain, though.

      It annoys me that they labelled those pressure cooker bombs WMDs. I mean, the "mass destruction" was limited to, what, a 100-foot radius? Doesn't fit my definition, and sounds like all I'd have to do to make a "WMD" is tape some nails around a grenade.

      --
      Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
    67. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by sa1lnr · · Score: 1

      "how stupid do they think we are?"

      On a scale of one to ten, eleven.

    68. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Typical+Slashdotter · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Per Article 3, Section 3 of the US Constitution,

      Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.

      Let's not dilute the word by using it for other bad things.

    69. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by budgenator · · Score: 2

      Prosecution will never happen, everybody is prohibited by law from testifying to whether the documents Snowden stole are authentic or not, i.e. the infamous "I can neither confirm nor deny", and Snowden is unlikely to respond to a sumons to testify.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    70. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 1

      Yeah, no. The NSA was doing many of the things its getting called out for a long time.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON

      And all of this was pretty well know for years. I'm really just stunned that everyone is acting as if they had no idea what the NSA was up to. In this light, Snowden's revelations are not that suprising.

      --
      Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
    71. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by WindBourne · · Score: 0

      Subprime did not even come CLOSE to destroying the economy. It slowed us down terribly, but destroy the economy? Nope.

      Think back to 9/11. Think back to that and the next day. Now make things WORSE . Take away sewage and water. Take away banks. Stop delivery trucks. Stop the trains and hospitals. Stop the electricity. Now, make it last no less than 30 days, though probably more.
      And you think that what W/neo-cons did to our economy will come even CLOSE to what China can and more importantly, is attempting to do?

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    72. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      NSA had nothing to do with the Iraq issue. That was W/neo-cons. And if you think that China is NOT attempting to destroy the west economically, then you really are stupid.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    73. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      The NSA is doing exactly what they are supposed to be doing. Who is NOT doing what they should be doing, were some employees who were fired and more importantly, CONgress, who pulled back their oversight back in the 00s so that they would not be held responsible.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    74. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes it is propaganda. ..."If the user agreed, the virus would’ve infected the computer."...I don't think a virus spreads very well from a bricked computer.

    75. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Jeremi · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The ones who drink the koolaide that comes from BOTH parties.. Its becoming apparent that none of the media, better known now as the defacto US Department of Propaganda, is telling the truth.. oh sure, they tell *their* "version" of the "truth", but not the TRUTH..

      What qualifications do you have that allow you to reliably discern the TRUTH from the lies?

      Are you 100% sure you aren't drinking someone else's brand of koolaid?

      What makes your sources of information more reliable than other peoples'?

      Often when someone is pushing a story about a vast conspiracy, the conspiracy is fictional, or at least highly exaggerated, and the people pushing the conspiracy narrative have their own political reasons for pushing it.

      --


      I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
    76. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Sarten-X · · Score: 1

      Of course without reading TFA, I'm thinking the "BIOS attack" is just a regular virus using the BIOS as storage. Updating the OS to prevent writing to BIOS would close the attack vector, and working with motherboard manufacturers would keep it closed permanently.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    77. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not to mention that most of the manufacturers are in China...so if China was originating the attack, working with the manufacturers wouldn't solve the problem.

    78. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      That metadata does not just show us terrorists. It shows us spies. The trick is to know who is contacting whom. Did the metadata help directly with this? Maybe. Most likely not. However, NSA is not going to announce that it did. They do not want everything out.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    79. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by WindBourne · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Sigh. Chinese leaders are in a cold war with the west. The attack would not be against America, but against the entire west.
      And when you are in a cold war, using cheap economics means to bring the west to their knees is dirt cheap compared to a hot war.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    80. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      But Iraq did have WMDs. They were all inoperable and stamped with Made in the USA (with receipts available, if requested). But he did have actual WMDs. They were all bought/gifts from the USA. The only one needing an invasion to stop their abuses is not in the Middle East.

    81. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence!

      Sometimes it is.

    82. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by FriendlyLurker · · Score: 1
      The data and operations sharing arrangements within these opaque organizations, is, well, opaque. There is no strict "there must be a separation of intelligence organizations" rule. They specialize and they also overlap, so we can only assume that they all work hand in hand:

      That is what Snowden has exposed, with official, secret documents. The NSA, FBI and CIA have, with the new digital technology, surveillance powers over our own citizens that the Stasi – the secret police in the former "democratic republic" of East Germany – could scarcely have dreamed of. Snowden reveals that the so-called intelligence community has become the United Stasi of America.

    83. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Jeremi · · Score: 1

      Quite true. Under US law, "WMD" includes any rifle with a bore larger than 0.50", and anything explosive for use against persons or property, including hand grenades. So of course Saddam's army had WMDs.

      That may well be the case, is some irrelevant lawyer fashion, but the existence of large-bore rifles were definitely not the justification the Bush administration was using during the lead-up to the Iraq War:

      "Knowing these realities, America must not ignore the threat gathering against us. Facing clear evidence of peril, we cannot wait for the final proof -- the smoking gun -- that could come in the form of a mushroom cloud." -- George W. Bush, Oct 6, 2002 (link)

      Put simply, the Bush administration was telling the American public that Iraq had the capability and them motive to nuke (or gas) American cities, and that was why an invasion was necessary. And that was a lie.

      --


      I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
    84. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Udom · · Score: 1

      The big question is...how would China have confined the malware to the US? Such an infection would wipe them out as well, and likely faster. China is awash in pirated copies of Windows that don't update. The report is just pure propaganda aimed at the technically ignorant.

    85. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, it's GREAT that the NSA managed to close this hole on billions of dollars of IT infrastructure all over the internet, intranets and unconnected computers.

      They even managed to fix ALL computers in the whole world, without any traces of the hole existing in the first place!

      Just. Fucking. Brilliant!

    86. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Shoten · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It's a fucking propaganda piece. It's quite easy to see right through the bullshit.

      If a BIOS exploiting malware was a real threat where's the CVE for it? Where's the advisory?? A BIOS crippling virus released into the wild has no need for secrecy unless the NSA themselves released it. It's quite convenient they mention they thwarted a "major cyber attack" without releasing the name of the virus nor when this supposedly happened.

      What a fucking joke that entire interview was....

      One, there's no CVE for malware. The "V" in "CVE" stands for "Vulnerability."

      But I think you're right otherwise, and this is total propaganda. So, let me get this straight, 60 Minutes: our largest trading partner, who manufactures more of our goods than any other country, and on razor-thin profit margins while your own economy wobbles, would for no particular reason go out and mess up the economy of their largest customer.

      I CALL UNBELIEVABLE FUCKING ASS-FUCK SHENANIGANS.

      It makes absolutely no sense. Not only does China have nothing to gain by disrupting our economy that way, they have a lot to lose. It would also be considered an act of war, and one that would be sure to align pretty much the whole planet against them.

      So, maybe it was someone else...I can think of very few countries that have any reason to do something so much like poking a sleeping lion with a stick, but they are out there. As you said...why not provide more details?

      I'd be willing to bet that what they actually stopped was a very small targeted attack like Shamoon, and that attribution is classified. Unless they're completely making it up entirely, which is less likely in my opinion.

      --

      For your security, this post has been encrypted with ROT-13, twice.
    87. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by AK+Marc · · Score: 0

      My opinion is they are right about 100% of US residents. If you are koolaide-proof, why do you still live there? The USA is in decline. It will crash. If you balance the budget, you will be impeached. The people that run the US government (the two parties are in collusion, there's only one party, with two marketing arms that play against each other) will see to it that both parties spend well above the income level of the US. None of the possible fixes will be adopted because the two parties have sufficient power to stop them. When the crash comes, you'll find out that Warren Buffet, Bill Gates, and the rest of the rich we keep hearing about being worth billions of USD are actually into USD for less than 1/10th of their wealth. They have it all in EUR and GBP because those with the means to move, have. Some have just moved financially, then permanently visit the US. Others flee when they can afford to.

      I got out. I may come back in 20-30 years, after the crash and recovery (if the recovery ever happens - if the US remains a mad-max style post apocolyptic wasteland, I'll just stay away).

      But if you aren't working on leaving, then you've drunk the koolaide yourself. So well that you don't even realize you drank it. The US *was* great. But, it isn't any more. The cabal that runs the USA is so backward thinking that they think on the lines of supporting current industries, like buggy whip makers, rather than letting them fail and moving on to the next big industry.

    88. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by dAzED1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No. It is not possible they did this. Doing this would require fixing the vulnerability - did they hack into the bios programming tools at all the motherboard manufacturers and secretly fix this problem? Did they hack everyone's computer and install the firmware update? An OS patch is one thing, but a firmware patch? This particular problem can not have been fixed with just a handwaving. It's one thing to say they intercepted a phone call and foiled a terrorist plot. It's another thing to claim they updated all current and future disparate BIOS firmware to protect against an undisclosed vulnerability. That is impossible, and makes them even more ridiculous.

    89. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fuck you. The broken window fallacy has nothing to do with Keynes.

    90. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by sexconker · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It is entirely possible that they did, indeed, halt a plot, just as they said they did.

      Not it fucking isn't.

      The NSA says it closed this vulnerability by working with computer manufacturers.

      Where are motherboards and BIOS shit is fucking manufactured / written? (Hint: China and Taiwan)

      Do you really think it's possible that a BIOS update was created by those manufacturers that:
      1: Applied to all the vulnerable systems, many of which are 10+ years old and manufactured by a now defunct-company
      2: Worked
      3: Got deployed
      4: Had all of the above happen with no one knowing about it outside of the NSA, the manufacturers, and the one guy in the world who writes BIOS patch notes
      ?

      Hell, I'll GIVE you the fucking BIOS patch notes.

      BIOS Version 2.3.5

      1 - Updated tables to half-support new Intel processors. Buy a new motherboard with new socket if you want it to actually work, though.
      2 - Updated Intel Option ROM. Just kidding, we're not updating that anymore, this motherboard has been out for 2 months already.
      3 - Various menu items have been slightly changed, and some of your settings will be wiped, we won't document which or why, though.

      At least this shit is believable.

    91. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      If the US had a propaganda department, it sure isn't working.

      Isn't it? The USA is one of the hardest countries to immigrate to. Yet, has one of the highest immigration rates. Why? Because so many outside the US have been propognadized. Nobody outside the US sees Detroit. Very few get to know a construction foreman in Texas well enough to hear him say "I'll hire a nigger. I wouldn't invite him to my house, he'd rob it, but I'll hire him. But those fuckin Mexicans, avoid them. They are lazy. But those Niggers, they are trained slaves." Or have met a gay person later killed for walking out of a gay bar near some homophobic people. The flaws of the US are ignored by those within in the US so well that those on the outside will never see them. So they only hear the good things, and make it a destination target. The UK is a better place for a legal immigrant, but is now harder to get in (they weren't, until about 5 years ago, but it got "full" so they switched the sign from "open" to "closed").

      But the perception of the US is very high outside the US (especially in 3rd world countries, the 1st world countries have too many stories of tourists robbed or violently attacked and breaks the spell). If not for propaganda, why?

    92. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hah! But you didn't stop My plot!

    93. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by sexconker · · Score: 0

      In philosophical, logical, grammatical and legal contexts, authorities deem such usage to be mistaken or at best unclear.

      Well, in places where that specificity is required, maybe.

      But in almost all other contexts, people do not use it that way. Language is fluid and evolves, and the vast majority of people will never find themselves worrying about someone "begging the question", but lots of things "beg a question be asked".

      But it's been in common usage for literally decades, and is probably used more often than the original term.

      Oh look, it's the "language evolves" horse shit again.
      Language also devolves. People using the language incorrectly is detrimental the core purpose of the language (communication), and thus detrimental to the language itself.

    94. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by AK+Marc · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So they are not levying war against the people? Given the government's use of "war" (on drugs, cold, etc.), I would say yes.

    95. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and besides, where do they think those logic boards are being made anyway?

    96. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by bughunter · · Score: 1

      Yes, the Bush White House was very definitely using fear of nukes to justify its decision to invade Iraq. Remember this?

      The problem here is that there will always be some uncertainty about how quickly Saddam can acquire nuclear weapons. But we don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud.
      —Condoleeza Rice, 8 Sep 2002

      --
      I can see the fnords!
    97. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by crtreece · · Score: 4, Informative

      We stood idly by while Saddam expended huge quantities of chemical weapons.

      Personally that may be true. On a bigger scale, we (the United States) provided helped them deploy the chemical weapons.

      Our governments (US and UK) knew very well what Saddam had, and what Saddam was capable of.

      We certainly should have known what Saddam had and was capable of. First, we helped put the Ba'ath party in to power. During the Iran / Iraq war, we helped them financially and with intelligence information. Then, we sold the precursors of chemical weapons to them and provided reconnaissance intelligence that was used in their deployment. Why else would Donald Rumsfeld be smiling as he shook Saddams hand in 1983?

      You will note, I hope, that I've said nothing in Saddam Hussein's defense. I have ONLY pointed out how dishonest our own governments are.

      And here is more evidence supporting that supposition.

      --
      file: .signature not found
    98. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Yaur · · Score: 1

      There were a few copy cats IIRC... but they didn't make much of a splash. Since BIOS and OS vendors have been of the issue they didn't for 20+ I'm fairly skeptical that on the breadth of the claim. Plus since we would know they didn't force upgrade everyone's BIOS, and we would know about it if there was a patch to fix the issue in the Linux kernel this is most likely an OS specific issue.

      In other words they probably turned over a 0 day Windows exploits to Microsoft that would have allowed writing to the BIOS because there became aware that some other nation's NSAlike agency had become aware of it.

    99. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by DougDot · · Score: 1

      Pretty fucking stupid, actually. And generally speaking, they're right.

    100. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      also, the US government knew they were chemical weapons because we sold them to Iraq

    101. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by kaatochacha · · Score: 1

      You mean the same UK where my friend's college friend, a black man, was stabbed to death by skinheads while walking home? A crime which only merited a 20 year prison sentence?
      Racism is alive and well everywhere.

    102. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      English language common usage for "raises the question" apparently, not the fallacy itself. Source: In modern vernacular usage, to beg the question more frequently means "to raise the question" (as in "This begs the question of whether ") or "to dodge the question".[2]

    103. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If they claim to have worked with manufacturers to implement the fix, can't reporters just ask the people at the manufacturer's, with anonymity, if the claims are true?

    104. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by runeghost · · Score: 1

      Arguably, depressing the general public is part of the point. The inverse totalitarianism of the US has three basic pillars: 1) convince the public that corporate capture of the government is normal, 2) create a persistent state of political apathy in as much of the population as possible, 3) convince everyone that the US is actually a democracy.

    105. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by budgenator · · Score: 1

      More likely made sure all of the Anti-virus vendors had a copy of the virus so it could be added to the signatures. I'm sure that since computer and network security is a major part of their mission, they had back-channels into all of the AV vendors and when they effectively say this "this shit is bad, we wouldn't wish it on our enemies" people pay attention.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    106. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would suggest you go learn more about Keynes's theories then.

    107. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by hypergreatthing · · Score: 1

      and my pet rock foiled the zebra invasion for the 20th time this year alone!
      Where's the proof of this foiled plot?
      How in the world was the US economy going to be taken down by malware?
      None of this adds up at all. It's more hand waving and gesturing to see if they can get some buy in from the utterly retarded.

    108. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by iksbob · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In all seriousness, I was thinking the exact same thing.
      As others here have pointed out, the premise of a BIOS-flashing piece of malware seems tenuous, and even laughable to those familiar with the subject. So why would the NSA make such a claim? One strong possibility in my mind is that they really have produced such a piece of malware (keylogger, packet sniffer, whatever) and are afraid of the public backlash and/or damage claims (my motherboard failed! it must be the NSA!) that would arise when its existence is made clear by a Snowden release. As such, they are desperately trying to spin it off on China before said release can be made.

    109. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 0

      The traditional meaning of the phrase "begs the question" makes no logical sense when one looks at the actual meaning of the individual words.

      When you beg for money, you wish to receive it without working for it, earning it, etc. When you beg a question, you assume the premise that is raised without working to prove it. The meanings are quite similar and related.

      The trick may be that common usage of "beg" is almost always "beg for".

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    110. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by budgenator · · Score: 1

      The odd thing about China is one is never sure if something the government does is an official action or if it one of the loose cannons going rogue.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    111. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by jimicus · · Score: 1

      More often than not these things get named by the antivirus vendors when they hit the wild and not before, which is why there isn't a name for it.

    112. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Urza9814 · · Score: 1

      Depends how you define "enemies". Which the Constitution doesn't entirely define.

      Members of the armed forces however swear an oath which includes the line: "I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic"

      Now, if we use that definition of enemies, it is enemies of *the Constitution*, and is explicitly defined to include domestic enemies. If you accept that the NSA's actions are violating the constitution, then they are indeed an "enemy" under that particular definition. Of course, if their actions are declared legal by the supreme court, that decision is legally a part of the Constitution and they could therefore not *legally* be considered traitors...but until then and for any issues not explicitly decided on by the courts, that question remains open.

    113. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

      Hey Potsy....Iraq did not have WMDs. US weapons inspectors never found them. UN weapons inspectors had *some* issues with access but in no way were has hampered as you stated but **US** weapons inspectors had free range in Iraq after we bombed them back to the stone age. US weapons inspectors later declared Iraq never had them.

      PISS OFF!

    114. Re: NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Mabhatter · · Score: 1

      Don't forget SUXNET...THEIR beastie that ACTUALLY did damage to systems... We can call it a wash?

    115. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Very good point! Why else would they keep this secret? Everyone in the security field knows if you found a new virus you tell everyone.

    116. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

      Nor did Iraq have chemical and biological weapons. So what's your point.

    117. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Penguinisto · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Re: the media... yup - sad, but mostly true.

      I find that I usually have to look up at least two different sources, plus at least one non-US source (my faves: RT, BBC, Deutsche Welle) and at least one alt-media source (*not* an ideologically-driven one) to get a semi-coherent picture of the truth behind a given story I find interesting.

      There is one bit, though: I don't think the US media is doing it for a given propaganda track per se (though it is rapidly approaching that), but instead I think it's an organic result of the $media_corporation drive for eyeballs, thus advertising dollars. This is why a typical cable show's primetime slots are packed with crap that feeds off of the drama and controversy, instead of trying to get at the actual facts and heart of a given story. It's why you have the likes of, say, Nancy Grace on CNN making her paycheck off the corpses of dead kids, MSNBC sneering at anyone who dares to besmirch their idol in the White House, and FOX shouting full-throttle that that same White House occupant is a combination of Stalin and the Antichrist (albeit wearing a better suit). Each channel is shaping their chosen demographic, and stoking them up so they can jack up the rates for advertisers.

      But then, I suspect it's part of the grand civilizational cycle - rise, peak, fall. We (the world, mind, since we're a lot more global than most folks realize) are somewhere near the peak IMHO, though I'll be damned if I can say for certain which side of that peak we're on.

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    118. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Desler · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately "teh terrists!" make people forget about how most of the NSA's existence has seen them abuse their power and overstep their authority. This is simply them going back to the pre-Church Committee times as was warned about by Walter Mondale who was on the commission. He stated how the it would simply take single act and a willing present to bring back the rampant abuses.

    119. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

      It was asserted that the WMD argument was an intelligence community failure. The NSA is part of the intelligence community. The CIA made up *one* part of that intelligence report.

    120. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Desler · · Score: 1

      That was meant to be president not present.

    121. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

      Or that the NSA is part of the intelligence community....

    122. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by bmk67 · · Score: 1

      Quite true. Under US law, "WMD" includes any rifle with a bore larger than 0.50", and anything explosive for use against persons or property, including hand grenades. So of course Saddam's army had WMDs.

      You're conflating terms. Those are considered "Destructive Devices", a legal term of art having nothing to do with Weapons of Mass Destruction, a politcal term of art.

    123. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 0

      Actually, if you track the phrase back, you discover that "begs the question" as a phrase the way it is traditionally used results from a mistranslation of the Latin term (petitio principii). A translation which would more accurately reflect the meaning of the term would be "assuming the premise".

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    124. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Bacon+Bits · · Score: 1

      Ah, Christ, you mean we have another 20 years of this shit before someone fixes it?

      --
      The road to tyranny has always been paved with claims of necessity.
    125. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by El+Puerco+Loco · · Score: 2

      No, it's not possible. The idea that China would want to tank the U.S. economy is absurd. We buy all their stuff. And all the treasury debt they own would be worthless, where's the logic in that?

    126. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by ultranova · · Score: 1

      And Iraq had WMDs. And the NSA never lied to congress or the people... how stupid do they think we are?

      Not stupid at all, just willing to lie to themselves. People who support the NSA for whatever reason, fore example because they're authoritarians, will treat this claim as absolute truth because it lets them rationalize that support. It's the exact same thing as happened with the "useful idiots" who held Soviet Union up as a worker's paradise and ignored all evidence to the contrary. Well, communism might be dead (for now) but the spirit of Stalinism lives on in the United States of all places.

      Then again, perhaps that is not so surprising. The Soviet Union was basically one giant corporation, and the United States is getting there. The South Pole has plenty of differences from the North, but none that would make someone dropped there any less fucked...

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    127. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The attack being described is nonsense, especially if China was supposed to be the perpetrator. Undermining the US economy is really the LAST thing the Chinese would want to do.

      Right, because every Chinese person thinks the same way. Don't be foolish.

    128. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2273694/Workshop-manager-stabbed-family-outside-KFC-telling-swearing-yobs-respect-staff.html

      The only skinhead stabbing I could find in the UK. And they stabbed a white person.

      Or were you thinking of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Stephen_Lawrence which is a 20+ year old murder, that was "suspected racial motivations" and no skinheads involved?

      Both received great attention due to the unusual nature of them. One incident in 20+ years shows a level of systemic racism?

    129. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by mbkennel · · Score: 1


      "It makes absolutely no sense. Not only does China have nothing to gain by disrupting our economy that way, they have a lot to lose. It would also be considered an act of war, and one that would be sure to align pretty much the whole planet against them."

      No it wouldn't. People would probably blame the Jews and enjoy the USA's hurt.

    130. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by mbkennel · · Score: 1


      Are there any public whistleblowers from the Chinese or Russian intelligence services?

      Seems that the last one had some polonium with his final tea.

      I don't think going rogue is an option.

    131. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by mbkennel · · Score: 1


      "Undermining the US economy is really the LAST thing the US Businessmen would want to do. It makes no sense from a business perspective."

    132. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by skydyr · · Score: 0

      Oh look, it's the "language evolves" horse shit again.
      Language also devolves. People using the language incorrectly is detrimental the core purpose of the language (communication), and thus detrimental to the language itself.

      Yes, because 20,000 years ago we all spoke the one pure language that perfectly described everything and since that fell apart the world has gone to shit.

    133. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by cusco · · Score: 1

      There used to be several in the late '90s, spread by booting off an infected floppy disk. I believe they were all manufacturer dependent, although there was at least one that could damage two different BIOSs (Award and AMI, I think). If you had a different BIOS it wouldn't do anything.

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
    134. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      That isn't simply false, it is a lie. Iraq manufactured it own WMDs after developing them with Egypt. They used them against Iran during the Iraq-Iran war in the 1980s, and killed or injured many people. It took a decade of effort to disarm Iraq of its WMDs after the 1991 Gulf War as they were repeatedly caught lying and cheating. (Taking notes?)

      The US doesn't need an invasion so much as you seemingly need medication or therapy. Since you repeatedly reference the superior healthcare system of the country you've gone to live in after leaving the US I would assume that shouldn't be a problem.

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    135. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

      It was public knowledge that Iraq had used chemical weapons in their war against Iran. Maybe they didn't have any *left*, but they definitely had some at that point.

      "According to reports from the previous UN inspection agency, UNSCOM, Iraq produced 600 metric tons of chemical agents, including mustard gas, VX and sarin, and nearly 25,000 rockets and 15,000 artillery shells, with chemical agents, that are still unaccounted for. In fact, in 1995, Iraq told the United Nations that it had produced at least 30,000 liters of biological agents, including anthrax and other toxins it could put on missiles, but that all of it had been destroyed."
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction#Prelude

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction#Chemical_weapon_attacks

      "Reacting to Western criticism in April 1990 Saddam threatened to annihilate half of Israel with chemical weapons if it moved against Iraq."
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hussein#Tensions_with_Kuwait

      So I guess my point is, they had demonstrated ample willingness to use them in the past.

      --
      Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
    136. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by jbengt · · Score: 1

      People forget that the NSA has actually done a _lot_ over the past century that has been of extreme benefit

      The NSA has only been in existence about 60 years. Yes, it had it's precursors in code-breaking military intelligence units in WW1 & WW2, but it was President Truman who secretly established the NSA (known as "No Such Agency")

    137. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by doggo · · Score: 1

      Fucking zebras!

    138. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by jbengt · · Score: 1

      Except of course for the fact that the words themselves . . . actually do mean a form "raises the question".

      Maybe if the phrase was something like ".. which begs to ask the question. . . ", otherwise, the "plain English" meaning of words themselves is that you are talking to a question, begging for something from it. (please, Mr. Question, may I have a dollar for a cup of coffee?)

    139. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 1

      Confusing the two makes you sound like your parents that complain that their CPU is broken when the display is broken. If you want to speak intelligently on the subject, it would behoove you to know the right names for the different moving parts.

      --
      Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
    140. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by geoskd · · Score: 1

      What qualifications do you have that allow you to reliably discern the TRUTH from the lies?

      Are you 100% sure you aren't drinking someone else's brand of koolaid?

      What makes your sources of information more reliable than other peoples'?

      Often when someone is pushing a story about a vast conspiracy, the conspiracy is fictional, or at least highly exaggerated, and the people pushing the conspiracy narrative have their own political reasons for pushing it.

      There need be no vast conspiracy; only individuals in certain positions acting in enlightened self interest. The consequences of unrestrained capitalism and the increasing monetization of democracy are obvious in hind-sight and enough smart people have extrapolated the pattern from past experiences that we can be reasonably certain where this ride stops...

      --
      I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
    141. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      So, the "big money" isn't in putting multiple freaking surveillance satellites into orbit, or engaging in surveillance of a meaningful subset of the 200 countries on the planet, countries with radars, radios, telephones, data communications, pretty much all of which is overseas and of potential interest to NSA? The money is in getting electronic copies of phone bills and hanging on to them for five years?

      By the numbers: The NSA's super-secret spy program, PRISM

      $20 million: The annual cost of PRISM.
      $8 billion: The estimated annual budget of the NSA.

      You do realize that they are doing this electronically, and not with 100,000 file clerks and a warehouse of file cabinets?

      I don't think you quite have that dialed in.

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    142. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      Don't worry, it actually works both ways.

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    143. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by rbrander · · Score: 1

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_migration_rate

      Yeah, number 16, right behind Italy, Lichtenstein, and Botswana.

      But seriously, it's not about hiding America's faults, it's about America's virtues. I can't think exactly where in the canon of PJ O'Rourke this story comes from, but it was one of his middle-east trips, probably back in the 80's. O'Rourke questions a, young, ummm, Palestinian, I think, street protester, about his radical politics. The teen gives him about 15 straight minutes of all the many terrible faults of America, its support of Israel, its general weight-throwing-around foreign policy, its suppression of the poor everywhere. O'Rourke finally has enough material and tries to change the subject to something upbeat: "So, you're young and just finishing school, what are your plans, do you have a career dream?"

      The kid gets all excited, lighted up happy, and says: "My cousin is at the University of Chicago, and he thinks he can get me a green card!" ...at least, America has a lot of job-finding virtues if you're Palestinian and half the people you know - 80% of the kids - have no job prospects...

    144. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by rrohbeck · · Score: 1

      Just my thought. If it was possible to flash BIOS remotely via malware it would have been reported and we'd see a flood of BIOS updates.

    145. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Gavagai80 · · Score: 1

      China is very much an export-based country still, reliant on the prosperity of the west. Preventing your best customers from paying you is not a desirable tactic.

      --
      This space intentionally left blank
    146. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      I'll happily believe the NSA stopped the malware attack in question,

      I wouldn't, actually. This whole story reminds me of the MI5 track record debacle. Those people live in a paranoid world of self-delusion to justify their existence and methods. They are prone to "find" plots in every corner. It's not that they are lying outright - they probably truly believe that they're fighting a real threat - but we should certainly question their judgment.

    147. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      results from a mistranslation of the Latin term (petitio principii)

      Yeah, there was one guy who mistranslated and everybody else copied him? Cite?

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    148. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by NoKaOi · · Score: 1

      Per Article 3, Section 3 of the US Constitution,

      Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.

      Let's not dilute the word by using it for other bad things.

      If we go with the federal government's stipulation that terrorists are the enemy, then yes, the NSA is adhering to the terrorists. Without the TLAs' and politicians' reaction to 9/11, people would not still be terrified. A terrorist's goal is not to kill people, it's to make those who remain alive afraid, hence the word "terrorist" and not "mass murderer." So:
      1. Terrorists are the enemy of the USA (as stipulated by the TLAs and politicians).
      2. By definition, the Terrorists' mission is to make people afraid.
      3. The the TLAs' and politicians' reaction to the terrorists' action 12 years ago are intended to keep people afraid (though they may have different motivation than Al Qaeda, the intent is still there).
      4. By #2 and #3, the TLAs and politicians are aiding the terrorists and adhering to their mission.
      5. By #1 and #4, the TLAs and politicians are committing treason.
      QED

    149. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      FWIW, Stalinism is alive and well in Russia today.

    150. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not NSA's problem - try the SEC and/or FBI.

    151. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My thoughts, exactly.

      Hey, here's an idea: maybe we could re-purpose the NSA to oversee US financial system since the agencies that are supposed to do it seem incapable of it or are peopled with folks with vested interests (Hank Paulson & Timmy Geithner, to name two.)

      And while were at it, I'm totally OK with using drones to take out monetary miscreants and other fiscal evil-doers on Wall Street and in DC.

    152. Re: NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      NSA says "don't look at us, look at them! "

    153. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And that was legal and all Bawney Frank and Chris Dodd and evil progressive bastards and all . . .

    154. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by g0bshiTe · · Score: 1

      Do you really believe the NSA foiled a cyberplot of an unnamed nation attempting a BIOS exploit?

      I question the validity, considering my BIOS needs to be flashed via USB, and to my knowledge no government official has been to my house to flash it. In fact it's not been on at home in 3 years.

      --
      I am Bennett Haselton! I am Bennett Haselton!
    155. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It makes absolutely no sense. Not only does China have nothing to gain by disrupting our economy that way, they have a lot to lose.

      This.

      The clear lesson after World War 2, after Vietnam, after Iraq, after Afghanistan (for -both- the U.S. and USSR), is that attempting to dominate or destroy another country always costs you more than you could gain, because even should you "win", you still lose based on the loss of reciprocal trade.

      Hence, the fishing-around for a new "enemy" that isn't a non-existent irrational yet powerful nation-state that doesn't recognize this, and resultant playing-up of the amorphous threat of "terrorism". But the usual "because terrorism" isn't playing out as well for the NSA this time around, so we're back to "er... China" even though that, indeed, still makes little sense relative to the DoD Budget Rationale 2.0 of "terrorism". They're sticking whatever thumbs they can into their rapidly-cracking dam.

      And, before it comes up, I hope no one will fail to note that even if China were proven "prepared" to launch such a technically-dubious attack, that means nothing. Everyone's able to be "prepared", is, going back to the reality of having and keeping nuclear weapons. That hardly means one is destined to launch them in an irrational fit of self-destruction.

    156. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What was that called again? Gentoo Linux? `

    157. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      Oh, I know. I only really said it in the "even if I accept your premise and give your argument every advantage possible, you're still wrong" sense.

      I haven't bothered to give it enough thought to decide whether I'd actually believe it (although I now default to extreme skepticism for any NSA claims).

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    158. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by dnavid · · Score: 1

      No. It is not possible they did this. Doing this would require fixing the vulnerability - did they hack into the bios programming tools at all the motherboard manufacturers and secretly fix this problem? Did they hack everyone's computer and install the firmware update? An OS patch is one thing, but a firmware patch? This particular problem can not have been fixed with just a handwaving. It's one thing to say they intercepted a phone call and foiled a terrorist plot. It's another thing to claim they updated all current and future disparate BIOS firmware to protect against an undisclosed vulnerability. That is impossible, and makes them even more ridiculous.

      Actually, while I'm not sure the report is credible, your logic is flawed. The article says the attack involved malware disguised *as* a BIOS patch, something which can exist and in fact has occurred in the past. The article also states that the NSA worked with computer manufacturers to close "the vulnerability" but it doesn't say the vulnerability was actually in the BIOS itself. And in fact you don't need a vulnerability in the BIOS to *replace* the BIOS with malware. The logical conclusion is if this attack existed at all, it was more likely to be a vulnerability in the BIOS update workflow, perhaps someone managed to penetrate the signing keys of most of the major BIOS manufacturers which would have allowed them to push out apparent BIOS updates to a wide range of computers. Or perhaps the attack involved vulnerabilities in the patch deployment servers of a significant number of motherboard manufacturers.

      The piece also does not state that the attack involved bricking huge numbers of computers worldwide. It talked about worldwide consequences, and this was within the context of attempting to attack the financial system:

      John Miller: Could a foreign country tomorrow topple our financial system?
      Gen. Keith Alexander: I believe that a foreign nation could impact and destroy major portions of our financial system, yes.
      John Miller: How much of it could we stop?
      Gen. Keith Alexander: Well, right now it would be difficult to stop it because our ability to see it is limited.

      One they did see coming was called the BIOS Plot. It could have been catastrophic for the United States. While the NSA would not name the country behind it, cyber security experts briefed on the operation told us it was China. Debora Plunkett directs cyber defense for the NSA and for the first time, discusses the agency’s role in discovering the plot.

      Debora Plunkett: One of our analysts actually saw that the nation state had the intention to develop and to deliver, to actually use this capability-- to destroy computers.
      John Miller: To destroy computers.
      Debora Plunkett: To destroy computers. So the BIOS is a basic input, output system. It's, like, the foundational component firmware of a computer. You start your computer up. The BIOS kicks in. It activates hardware. It activates the operating system. It turns on the computer.
      This is the BIOS system which starts most computers. The attack would have been disguised as a request for a software update. If the user agreed, the virus would’ve infected the computer.
      John Miller: So, this basically would have gone into the system that starts up the computer, runs the systems, tells it what to do.
      Debora Plunkett: That's right.
      John Miller: --and basically turned it into a cinderblock.
      Debora Plunkett: A brick.
      John Miller: And after that, there wouldn't be much you could do with that computer.
      Debora Plunkett: That's right. Think about the impact of that across the entire globe. It could literally take down the U.S. economy.

      Its possible the attack involved a stuxnet-like malware designed specifically to target certain kinds of systems used at the major trading companies, say the servers in use at the NYSE and the NASDAQ. It may not have been an attack intended to brick random

    159. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He is allowed to use english and treason is an appropriate word. Please do not limit the word or its use by restricting its definition to what a single national document says it means. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/treason

    160. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I AM a zebra, you insensitive clod!

    161. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Iraq government had WMDs... there's no question about it. Please stop saying they didn't. Disagree? Well first tell me what a WMD is again?

      Our government seems to have defined it as: "A “destructive device” which includes “any explosive, incendiary or poison gas.” Done. Period.

      http://hereandnow.wbur.org/2013/04/25/weapon-mass-destruction

      http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2332a

    162. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Iraq did have WMDs

      Look up the "Office of Special Plans" under Bush II and read Karen Kwiatkowski's blog and history.

      GWB and his minions intentionally LIED.

    163. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or maybe you are not well informed? I need proof sir. Oh you don't have real proof? Bye.

    164. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Iraq lied and cheated because they "knew" that if they were truely disarmed and everyone knew it, Iran would invade. The choice was lie or die. They chose to not die.

      Are you disputing the claim that the US supplied them with MWDs? Or just ignoring it and hoping nobody notices?

    165. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      There are no jobs in the US either. We just lie about it better.

    166. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by kartaron · · Score: 1

      The guardian (Snowden's paper of choice apparently) Says the entire story about this is 'dubious' "The lack of specificity made cybersecurity expert Robert David Graham dubious that the plot NSA claimed to discover matched the one it described on TV. “All they are doing is repeating what Wikipedia says about BIOS,” Graham blogged, “acting as techie talk layered onto the discussion to make it believable, much like how Star Trek episodes talk about warp cores and Jeffries Tubes.” " http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/16/nsa-surveillance-60-minutes-cbs-facts The details the author poins out about the rest of the NSA statements are revealing as well.

    167. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by GumphMaster · · Score: 1

      Undermining the US economy is really the LAST thing the Chinese would want to do.

      In the immortal words of Sherman T Potter, "Horse hockey!"

      The ability to mass disrupt the US economy is of great utility to the Chinese government in the event that the US and China are on opposite sides of a war. Just the same as the United States would seek to destroy the economy of China in the same circumstances. Even without the war, the threat of being able to do this to the US is the same threat the US relies on every time it claims nuclear weapons are a deterrent: don't pick a fight with us because we will cripple you.

      Remember, Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.

      --
      Patent litigation: A doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction... in which everyone seems willing to push the button
    168. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Donald Rumsfeld was sure that they had them, be he sold them the weapons.

    169. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The ones who drink the koolaide that comes from BOTH parties.. Its becoming apparent that none of the media, better known now as the defacto US Department of Propaganda, is telling the truth.. oh sure, they tell *their* "version" of the "truth", but not the TRUTH..

      What qualifications do you have that allow you to reliably discern the TRUTH from the lies?

      Are you 100% sure you aren't drinking someone else's brand of koolaid?

      What makes your sources of information more reliable than other peoples'?

      Often when someone is pushing a story about a vast conspiracy, the conspiracy is fictional, or at least highly exaggerated, and the people pushing the conspiracy narrative have their own political reasons for pushing it.

      Often time people take things to literally when reading comments and things fly over there head, name a mainstream media source that pointed out the NSA and other possible US spying agencies before Snowden (and the crap SNowden has spewed out, is nowhere close to being a secret, that would not make him any whistle blower nor any savior)? And the few outlets that did people like yourself seemed to be in disbelief or thought it was paranoid delusions. Now Im not taking you comment literally, without question you should trust no one, and listen to all sides.

    170. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Desler · · Score: 1

      History is cyclical as they say.

    171. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by brantondaveperson · · Score: 1

      Language also devolves.

      No, it doesn't.

      "Language evolves" is a slightly leading statement, since it suggests that evolves is being used in it's generally-accepted-but-not-quite-correct sense of improves. It doesn't though, it just changes. And in doing so we still continue to understand it. There is no such thing as grammatically incorrect speech, since the definition of grammar can only be an examination of how language is spoken. See "The Language Instinct" by Stephen Pinker for an excellent and in-depth study of this point.

    172. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not only possible but quite likely they did find a back door in some chips and construed from that they saved the US economy because left unchecked, many machines would eventually be compromised. Of course, this assumes no one else would have found it, which is highly unlikely but it would not take that long as most larger businesses replace their tech every few years or so.

    173. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To be fair, they keep changing the meaning of "WMDs." A WMD can be anything now, including a bottle of soda with mentos in it. No, I'm not even kidding. They even claimed the Witchita incident from the other day included "WMDs."

    174. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All any of this proves is that after Gulf War I, Saddam Hussein bluffed the world with a pair of deuces as far as WMD goes.

      Then Bush II trumped up the lies about Iraqi WMDs (Office of Special Plans, "Curveball") and off we went.

    175. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I couldn't be bothered reading the article, but are the NSA claiming they secretly patched everyone's BIOS, or simply halted a plot to deploy a virus to infect everyone's BIOS?

    176. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

      *After*, yes. If you ignore the time frame part of the argument, it still applies. Dictators using chemical weapons = Bad Thing.

      --
      Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
    177. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      .. adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.

      Let's not dilute the word by using it for other bad things.

      Would you say that deliberately weakening industry-wide cryptographic standards constitutes aiding an enemy?

    178. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Welcome to the post-Snowden world, where nobody trusts anyone or anything anymore. THIS is going to be the real repercussion of the Snowden leaks, and it's going to have a chilling effect for decades.

    179. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by F.Ultra · · Score: 1

      Well I'm on your side and I agree fully with you but the Chinese are not a single individual, there are probably fractions inside the Chinese Government that don't want their economy to be dependent upon the American consumers and also could benefit from an economic decline.

    180. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      Regarding your first line regarding Iraq lying and cheating, yes, that is correct.

      As to your second line, yes, I am openly and directly disputing the assertion that the US supplied Iraq with Weapons of Mass Destruction. To the best of my knowledge that is false. The closest that you can get to the US supplying Iraq with WMD as far as I know is that the US allowed the export of some dual use materials that had legitimate industrial uses, as well as some samples of biological pathogens intended to be shared for medical research and vaccines. But none of that constituted actual WMDs. If you have hard evidence of something other than that I would be interested in seeing it.

      Chemical

      Experts say that Iraq has the largest chemical weapons program in the Third World, developed entirely with the aid of foreign firms, especially those from West Germany. Iraq can presently produce up to 700 tons of chemical warfare agents per year, according to these estimates, but its capacity is expected to increase sizeably in the 1990s. There are at least two plants at Samarra where Iraq produces mustard gas and the nerve agents tabun and sarin; and two more at Fallujah, where Iraq reportedly is building a manufacturing complex for "precursors" -- the ingredients used for nerve gas. Experts say that Iraq also has built a research facility for biological warfare at Salman Pak.

      CIA report says Egypt helped Iraq build chemical weapons

      The Evolution of Chemical and Biological Weapons in Egypt - ( I am indebted to the troll Anachragnome for this link)

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    181. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by F.Ultra · · Score: 1

      According to the article in The Guardian the attack was supposed to be in the guise of a firmware patch and not a looming vulnerability in the BIOS:

      "Among the more eye-opening claims made by NSA is that it detected what CBS terms the “BIOS Plot” – an attempt by China to launch malicious code in the guise of a firmware update that would have targeted computers apparently linked to the US financial system, rendering them pieces of junk."

      Which of course makes this even more ridiculous, because how could the NSA thwart a fake firmware upgrade from happening by "closing a vulnerability"

    182. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 1

      If not for propaganda, why?

      Because as bad as things are in the U.S., it's still better than most of the world?

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
    183. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Malware, and espeically self-replicating malware can't work without vulnerabilities.

    184. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It looks like someone is trying to prime the American public with anti-China beliefs.

    185. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by fatphil · · Score: 1

      > Of course, if their actions are declared legal by the supreme court,

      Then SCOTUS themselves become the enemy too?

      --
      Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
    186. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Nuke Kim jan tesdroy yar monitorz by his psychic powers, I tell you ! We have a PSI Warfare Gap here !

    187. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is entirely possible that they did, indeed, halt a plot,

      Does not sound likely. If they somehow protected the U.S. public during the attack - why weren't we Europeans hit? Perhaps because there were no such attack . . .

    188. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by reve_etrange · · Score: 1

      Yeah, their dastardly plan to trade all of their resources and labor away in exchange for our paper is really crushing us.

      --
      .: Semper Absurda :.
    189. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      of course, they HAD them in the 80s, however, even if the stockpiles remained, they were well past usable. the question is, would they still count?

    190. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by reve_etrange · · Score: 1

      Again, I think you should explain how exporting all of their resources and labor is supposed to make them stronger. Sure, there is a bigger number next to their name in a computer at the Fed. So what?

      --
      .: Semper Absurda :.
    191. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by reve_etrange · · Score: 1

      China can and more importantly, is attempting to do

      What are you even talking about here? This fake malware attack or selling us stuff?

      Real terms of trade with China are unambiguously in our favor as they exchange their precious natural resources and unrecoverable labor time in exchange for our notionally valued financial assets (fiat money).

      --
      .: Semper Absurda :.
    192. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Sounds like something an American would say.

    193. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm confident that, if they had any really good success, they could've gotten em' declassified already. So far, all the success stories they trotted out got torn to ribbons, like techdirt found that only 1 out of their original 42 success claims really represented their success. And that success was merely one guy giving a little money to a bad islamic charity.

      They went on 60 minutes knowing it was a puff piece with a big audience, so they made shit up that wouldn't get called out by 60 minutes, even though it's total bullshit.

    194. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not sure you understand what "Levying War" means, or "Aid and Comfort" for that matter.

    195. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My sources mostly come from stolen documents from these criminals. Since they are powerful intelligence and war agencies, their internal info is more likely to be true than the lies they tell (I hope you have no doubts about "no Sir" and WMD being lies).

    196. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by mellon · · Score: 1

      What are you talking about? BIOS-flashing malware is a well-known problem, long pre-dating this discussion. Here's a recent article on the topic: http://www.darkreading.com/vulnerability/bios-bummer-new-malware-can-bypass-bios/240155473

      In previous years, people did scoff at the idea of BIOS hacks, but they were fairly common for older BIOSes, even without this special NIST BIOS standard.

      Now if you were to propose that the NIST standard was deliberately broken by the NSA, that would be an interesting speculation to pursue, but the point is that BIOS-flashing malware is a very real problem, and has been for a long time.

    197. Re: NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exports are less than 25% of their GDP. America is less than 20% of that. IOW, if USA stopped overnight, it would be less than 1/20 of their GDP or a 5% drop. And they would have destroyed what they consider to be a big enemy. We spent 2 trillion fighting in Iraq/Afghanistan which is 1/7 of our GDP.
      China would happily drop their GDP for a short time to destroy America

    198. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by RespekMyAthorati · · Score: 1

      That's OK, cold_fjord.
      We forgive you.

    199. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by petteyg359 · · Score: 1

      The maximum rating of 5 is insufficient.

    200. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      it is the destruction of our companies that is doing that.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    201. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      by dumping on our markets and destroying our supply lines, they are in control. You obviously have not learned lessons from the original cold war.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    202. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by davester666 · · Score: 1

      That wasn't terrorism. That was capitalism!

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    203. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by NotBorg · · Score: 1

      The fact is that as long as they have an effective "tailored access" program they aren't fixing security. If the NSA can exploit a bug so can China. They're full of shit.

      --
      I want this account deleted.
    204. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Internetuser1248 · · Score: 1

      ...the people pushing the conspiracy narrative have their own political reasons for pushing it...

      So we shouldn't believe in conspiracies because they are all part of a big conspiracy to get us to believe in conspiracies?

      People conspire every day, it is a provable fact. Let's not buy into the whole tinfoil hat stereotype too hard.

    205. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Stuarticus · · Score: 1

      "Only" 20 years? If you haven't learned your lesson in 20 years you're not going to. Friend of a friend stories are known to be somewhat unreliable as well. Still at least in America he would probably have been shot as God intended. Freedom!

      --
      If you think someone isn't free to have a different definition of "freedom" you may be a tyrant.
    206. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're conflating terms. Those are considered "Destructive Devices", a legal term of art having nothing to do with Weapons of Mass Destruction, a politcal term of art.

      You and TangoMargarine... "conflate" means "to combine", not "to confuse". Dictionary. Learn to use it.

    207. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bullsheets. Subprime lending is a big chunk of what BUILT the millennial US economy. It had already been destroyed by a drop in consumer demand around the same time as the TECH bubble burst.

      The entire country is idiots because nobody seems to realize that the housing bubble was FALSE economy, and that if we erase that from our economic model we'd have seen a FLATLINED economy since the second bubble crash of the year 2000.

    208. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Gallomimia · · Score: 1

      Very.... VERY stupid. It's working too, so what does that tell you about most people?

      --
      Sadly, a Libertarian cannot force his views on another, and freedom cannot spread as does the cancer known as religion.
    209. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Gallomimia · · Score: 1

      ... how stupid do they think we are?

      You don't want to know just how stupid *they* think we are.. And the really sad part?? *They* are absolutely right on a large percentage of the American people.. The ones who drink the koolaide that comes from BOTH parties.. Its becoming apparent that none of the media, better known now as the defacto US Department of Propaganda, is telling the truth.. oh sure, they tell *their* "version" of the "truth", but not the TRUTH.. We are well and truly screwed...

      That's Ministry of Truth to you pleb.

      --
      Sadly, a Libertarian cannot force his views on another, and freedom cannot spread as does the cancer known as religion.
    210. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And China has never tried to disrupt American society or steal American secrets. Yeah right. Wake up dummies and realize that there are those who wish to see our country fall

    211. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually it is.. on flashable BIOS'.. I too am completely skeptical, but assuming for a moment it's credible, flashable BIOS's would be inherantly vulnerable as a virus or malware *could* exploit the same door as the bios upgrade utility. And "fixing it" could be as easy as flashing your BIOS again.

      That said, I'm very skeptical.. Typically BIOS flash utilities are manufacturer specific and the procedure is typically hard-wired. So I'm right there with the skeptics, just understand that it's not IMPOSSIBLE. Just very very unlikely.

    212. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Karzz1 · · Score: 1

      it's easy to forget such a thing, since they've only been around for a half century...

      As far as you know.....

      --
      Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.
    213. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by lsatenstein · · Score: 1

      No. It is not possible they did this. Doing this would require fixing the vulnerability - did they hack into the bios programming tools at all the motherboard manufacturers and secretly fix this problem? Did they hack everyone's computer and install the firmware update? An OS patch is one thing, but a firmware patch? This particular problem can not have been fixed with just a handwaving. It's one thing to say they intercepted a phone call and foiled a terrorist plot. It's another thing to claim they updated all current and future disparate BIOS firmware to protect against an undisclosed vulnerability. That is impossible, and makes them even more ridiculous.

      While you are 99.99% right, there is that 0.01% that states that you are wrong.
      I have often downloaded bios updates from ASUS, and Intel, and from one other motherboard vendor, so it is faintly possible that they are telling the truth.

      --
      Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
    214. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, he is conflating them. If he's using them interchangeably, then he's effectively combined the meanings of the terms.

    215. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What qualifications do you have that allow you to reliably discern the TRUTH from the lies?

      Becaused I watched with my own two eyes NSA techs install harvesting nodes one hop up from yahoo mail servers in 2007. Those nodes are still there.
      I KNOW the truth. I have seen it. I trust my eye balls and my knowledge of network gear and how networks work. I know what a Narrus box is and what it does.

      The other person is right there is no such thing as a "version" of the truth. It just "is" because it is the truth. Only lies have shades of grey and versions of itself.

      Sure some maybe most conspiracies are fictional but some turn out to be true too.

    216. Re: NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WMD in US legal context is just meant to differentiate types of improvised weapons than can do a lot of damage, like explosive ones.

      The marathon bombing case is exactly how it's supposed to be used. Otherwise if they didn't hurt anyone with it, all you could pin on him is what intent or destruction of property I guess? That's not enough to discourage people from making the things.

      The WMD you are thinking about is a totally different, vague thing with no legal definition I think.

    217. Re: NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We know that Iraq had WMDs because we had the purchase orders. Wether they destroyed them before we invaded is a different question.

    218. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We killed over 100K civillians in WOT. I'm sorry to hear that you are upset over a website.

    219. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The U.S. is waging a war on its own people.

    220. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      Of course the NSA/CIA foiled a plot to destroy the US economy through malware. The held a meeting during lunch and decided to stop doing it ;D.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    221. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by mpeskett · · Score: 1

      Well, Google reckons the population of the UK is about 63 million, so I would of course be happy to pay my fair share, which comes to... approximately 24 cents, so long as you're willing to pay the cost of posting it to you of course.

    222. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by IndieVoter · · Score: 1

      The WMDs were sent to Syria. We see them now. Truth appears to PISS YOU OFF!

    223. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by jv+lee · · Score: 1

      You're obviously not familiar with the Mahmoud Ahmadinejad school of economics.

    224. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >What qualifications do you have that allow you to reliably discern the TRUTH from the lies?

      if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it is most likely NOT a shape-shifting skrull.

      >and the people pushing the conspiracy narrative have their own political reasons for pushing it. ...yeah, the truth.

    225. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by eionmac · · Score: 1

      I often wondered why USA constitution did not follow the established and known formulae of most European states/kingdoms/dictatorships origin in that "treason" has two grades "High Treason" and "Petty Treason" ,or big and little treason. It avoids conflicts of jury disagreements on grade.

      --
      Regards Eion MacDonald
    226. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't want to believe that both parties are lying, because you're a liar.

      It really is that simple.

      And only assholes throw "conspiracy" in to discredit valid observations.

      Die in a fire, asshole.

    227. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is, it doesn't.

      Look at all the tech assholes here that SHOULD know better, but don't.

      It doesn't take any kind of coordinated effort to fuck us all over, it just takes enough really stupid indifferent and cowardly people.

      And the USA is WAY past that tipping point.

    228. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The NSA probably commissioned some vendor to write a key-logger that would install in a computer's BIOS. They probably paid billions of dollars for development and research.

      Then they tested it on a few computers and the NSA malware bricked them all.

      So the NSA canceled the project, saving America from a malware threat that would have tanked the economy. See how diligently they work to save Americans from cyber threats?

      Next week they'll stimulate the economy by breaking everyone's windows (pun intended).

      John Miller: And based on what you learned here at NSA, would it have worked?

      Debora Plunkett: We believe it would have, yes.
      (the above quoted from the article itself) ...and how would they know that it worked?

    229. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Phreakiture · · Score: 1

      I never said it was likely, only possible.

      --
      www.wavefront-av.com
    230. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Phreakiture · · Score: 1

      And you don't have a name. Bye.

      --
      www.wavefront-av.com
    231. Re:NSA failed to halt subprime lending, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Penguin, I think that traditionally you're right about US media. But if you look at the document Roger Ailes wrote in the Nixon administration, there is a political motive behind Fox.

  2. We have all the evidence! by NIK282000 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    But we cant show it to you, its a privet.

    --
    Dear aunt, let's set so double the killer delete select all
    1. Re:We have all the evidence! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      But please ignore how we failed to stop the Boston Marathon bomber!

    2. Re:We have all the evidence! by Desler · · Score: 2

      They will just simply claim that happened because they didn't have enough spying powers.

    3. Re:We have all the evidence! by phrostie · · Score: 5, Informative

      and this lame vague shit is the best they can do.

      100% of the NSA budget needs to be given to NASA.

    4. Re:We have all the evidence! by Desler · · Score: 1

      But ninnies like cold fjord will eat it up. They need Big Brother to tuck them in at night or they'll wet their bed.

    5. Re:We have all the evidence! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      How much do you want to bet that a Snowdon leak shows that the NSA creates these fantasy plots to justify their existence?

    6. Re:We have all the evidence! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The evidence is hiding in the bushes? (Yes, I saw what you did and it was indeed humorous. Those who hear a woosh, look up "privet". NIK obviously did that on purpose, probably hoping someone would bash him for spelling).

    7. Re:We have all the evidence! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Speaking of being tucked in at night, the Wired article shows a picture of mostly young and attractive employees (jokingly stating that, see, some of them had not yet fled to Russia with the secrets).

      I work for a subsidary of high-technology corporation and I have heard through the grapevine that the most of the NSA workforce are extremely young, and reportedly because they have not yet been corrupted by ideology or had the chance to go into debt or get married and have affairs --

      -- But, on the other hand, younger people have not yet had the chance to learn their limitations, they are too immature to wield such power, especially if they grew up in religious households and always have in the back of their mind that it is God's will for them to be doing such work, and that they have the moral upper-hand in doing such work.

      The evil menace must be stopped so that liberty may prevail.

    8. Re:We have all the evidence! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      But ninnies like cold fjord will eat it up. They need Big Brother to tuck them in at night or they'll wet their bed.

      Cold fjord isn't a ninny. He know exactly what he is doing. It is the people who listens to him and doesn't realize that he is a shill that are ninnies.

    9. Re:We have all the evidence! by paiute · · Score: 1

      they have not ... had the chance to go into debt

      So the NSA does not hire college graduates?

      --
      If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
    10. Re:We have all the evidence! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A privet is a shrub of the olive family, with small white, heavily scented flowers and poisonous black berries. Are you referring to the berries? Or the flowers? I don't get the expression.

    11. Re:We have all the evidence! by s.petry · · Score: 1

      Don't you mean "they need a paycheck from someone, and shilling is all they are qualified to do"?

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    12. Re:We have all the evidence! by Desler · · Score: 1

      Yeah but he shills because he is generally scared of the "Mooslems" that are coming for him.

    13. Re:We have all the evidence! by u38cg · · Score: 2

      That makes sense. A hedge is not really good evidence for anything, except possibly gardening.

      --
      [FUCK BETA]
    14. Re:We have all the evidence! by rotorbudd · · Score: 1

      And it's grown around privets to hide them.
      Which came first ?
      The bush or the shitter?

      --
      A bullet may have your name on it, but artillery is addressed to " Whom It May concern"
    15. Re:We have all the evidence! by Pseudonym+Authority · · Score: 1

      Which would be absurd, because you don't need a massive domestic surveillance system to defeat malware. Even if it is true, all it would prove is that the NSA in it's capacity of securing networks, is a good thing to have around. I don't think very many argue against the idea of the NSA's role in SELinux on a rights-encroachment basis.

    16. Re:We have all the evidence! by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      To be fair, that was the FBI's job. That they failed to do.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    17. Re:We have all the evidence! by TWiTfan · · Score: 1

      "If only you had let us put cameras in everyone's homes and tripled our budget, so many lives could have been saved," lamented the NSA Director.

      --
      The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
    18. Re:We have all the evidence! by wiredlogic · · Score: 1

      and this lame vague shit is the best they can do.

      No the best ever was the yellowcake and mobile labs bullshit. This is just amateur hour.

      --
      I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
    19. Re:We have all the evidence! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and this lame vague shit is the best they can do.

      100% of the NSA budget needs to be given to NASA.

      Why? In the last decade, the NSA has been much more successful mooning the American public.

    20. Re:We have all the evidence! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, 100% needs to be given back to the taxpayers. I am not willing to pay Nasa one cent.

    21. Re:We have all the evidence! by s.petry · · Score: 1

      His persistence, and the amount of data he researches to argue his broken points, leads me more to thinking he gets paid to shill.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    22. Re:We have all the evidence! by Kielistic · · Score: 1

      He's been mysteriously less active in recent memory. I remember when he would have had 10 posts in a thread like this 5 minutes after it was posted. Budget cuts?

    23. Re:We have all the evidence! by Desler · · Score: 1

      He posts the stories anonymously now and he uses sockpuppets.

    24. Re:We have all the evidence! by Desler · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but even the CIA was saying that the mobile port-a-potty labs were bullshit long before the Bush Administration used it as a justification.

    25. Re:We have all the evidence! by s.petry · · Score: 1

      This is similar in my opinion to the boy who cried wolf syndrome. Whether he's a paid shill or not, the ID is now tarnished with people thinking that they are just a shill. No matter the reason (shill/idiocy/misguided), people stopped paying much attention to what was said and simply replied with a comment regarding the person being a shill. Not arguing their points any longer.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    26. Re:We have all the evidence! by Kielistic · · Score: 1

      Fjord had such a glaringly one sided agenda and extensive history that anyone that recognised the name knew that any post would be nothing but misrepresentations of half-truths. Such a person should be ignored and have a tarnished reputation. Arguing with a liar is pointless. He made use of extensive logical tricks and careful fallacies to flog his agenda which is what made him such an interesting case.

    27. Re:We have all the evidence! by mbkennel · · Score: 1


      They like to hire Mormons from wealthy families.

    28. Re:We have all the evidence! by budgenator · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't be surprised if you had the desired qualifications, that it would be typical that your student loan debts would be paid off as part of your signing bonus if your contract was long enough.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    29. Re:We have all the evidence! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      His persistence, and the amount of data he researches to argue his broken points, leads me more to thinking he gets paid to shill.

      It's weird though. Sometimes it sounded like he was offended by peoples responses. The way he got emotional/irrational made me think that he's not 'just doing his job'. I guess that's why he's employed to do what he does...

    30. Re:We have all the evidence! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and this lame vague shit is all they can tell you about.

      FTFY.

    31. Re:We have all the evidence! by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      its a privet.

      It's what?

    32. Re:We have all the evidence! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To NASA, so they can buy their $30000 toliet seat?, $5000 hammer?

    33. Re:We have all the evidence! by reve_etrange · · Score: 1

      I have discovered a truly marvelous proof of this, which this comment is too narrow to contain.

      --
      .: Semper Absurda :.
    34. Re:We have all the evidence! by NIK282000 · · Score: 1

      It's what?

      It's not a good day to drink before 9am.

      --
      Dear aunt, let's set so double the killer delete select all
    35. Re:We have all the evidence! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Nasa. We're one letter better than the NSA!"

    36. Re:We have all the evidence! by bunkymag · · Score: 1

      N_SA
      __^___
      The A-hole

    37. Re:We have all the evidence! by u38cg · · Score: 1

      A privet is a flowering plant in the genus Ligustrum. Commonly cultivated into a hedge (a boundary formed of constrained silvacious plants).

      --
      [FUCK BETA]
    38. Re:We have all the evidence! by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Privet is "hello" in Russian, but is also sometimes used idiomatically to mean "well that's it, you/we have fucked up, end of the line". Which seemed quite apropos, but also weird (unless OP is a Russian spy).

    39. Re:We have all the evidence! by s.petry · · Score: 1

      I agree. I was merely pointing out what I believe is a logical reason for his absence lately. If it's a shill, in a year or two the account will be dusted off and re-used. Until then, it's got a funky odor to it and nobody wants to be near it.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

  3. funny by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    they are trying to justify their unlawful behavior.

    1. Re:funny by gweihir · · Score: 2

      Like all caught criminals....

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  4. Is this why we have UEFI all of a sudden? by danudwary · · Score: 2

    I don't know the history of this, and the linked article is vague on timelines, but it always did seem like UEFI came out of nowhere...

    1. Re:Is this why we have UEFI all of a sudden? by silas_moeckel · · Score: 2

      UEFI is the attack capable of not allowing you to boot anything they do not ordain as acceptable.

      --
      No sir I dont like it.
    2. Re:Is this why we have UEFI all of a sudden? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I'd say that UEFI is the actual bios that got malwared.
      You should be asking yourself: "Is UEFI the reason we now have this malware?"

    3. Re:Is this why we have UEFI all of a sudden? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Servers had been using EFI for years, I first used it in 2003 on an HP Itanium. Apple have been using it for a while too. It does offer some real advantages over the traditional BIOS that's essentially a series of hacks on an architecture designed with 1980s PCs in mind where nobody would ever need more than 500 mb of disk space or want to have more than 4 primary partitions.

    4. Re:Is this why we have UEFI all of a sudden? by gmuslera · · Score: 1

      That remembers me of something. If the malware can brick the PC is probably BIOS/manufacturer fault, as it was in that case. And could be something intended by the NSA... when you force manufacturers to put your backdoors in their systems you can be the one responsible for bricking, either because you did it or because you opened the door.

    5. Re:Is this why we have UEFI all of a sudden? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If by no where you mean in existence since 2005 sure of course it was preceded by one of Intel's projects that started in 1998 which became the original EFI.

      It came out of 'no where' because it wasn't until Vista and Windows 7 that any Windows OS natively supported it then it was required by Microsoft if you wanted the little certified for Windows 8 sticker.

    6. Re:Is this why we have UEFI all of a sudden? by hawkinspeter · · Score: 1

      Nope - that'd be Secure Boot. There's nothing inherently wrong with UEFI.

      --
      You're a temporary arrangement of matter sliding towards oblivion in a cold, uncaring universe
    7. Re:Is this why we have UEFI all of a sudden? by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      It may have been better to update BIOS (new partition table format, minor things like that). Keep it simple, and doing what BIOS does: Boot the OS then get out of the way. Instead EFI got some serious scope creep, to the point it has to boot a whole operating system (including drivers stored on disk and IP stack!) just in order to load the real OS.

    8. Re:Is this why we have UEFI all of a sudden? by jandrese · · Score: 1

      Of course UEFI is a lot more complex and powerful, so owning it gives even more control over a machine and there are a lot more opportunities for security problems with it. Of course BIOS was built in a time before PCs understood the concept of security, so it's probably an improvement nonetheless.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    9. Re:Is this why we have UEFI all of a sudden? by silas_moeckel · · Score: 1

      Secure boot is part of UEFI 2.2 I beleive

      --
      No sir I dont like it.
    10. Re:Is this why we have UEFI all of a sudden? by Sarten-X · · Score: 1

      EFI is designed to eliminate the need for any more hacks. Everything is modularized and defined, so everything fits in EFI's framework regardless of what future capabilities are. When I'm rebooting my interstellar spaceship, the FTL radio will need drivers so it can boot the latest OS transmitted from Earth. Of course, that will require cryptographic keys, which means the hardware entanglement device will also need drivers and software, and that's so complex that it really needs to be stored in glowing holographic crystals, so of course we need the drivers for those.

      EFI can do that.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    11. Re:Is this why we have UEFI all of a sudden? by hawkinspeter · · Score: 1

      Yep, but it's best to be specific about where the problem is. In fact, Secure Boot is not necessarily problematic, but enforcing it is where the problem lies. Secure Boot where the users are in control of the keys wouldn't cause as much fuss as when Microsoft are in control of the keys.

      --
      You're a temporary arrangement of matter sliding towards oblivion in a cold, uncaring universe
    12. Re:Is this why we have UEFI all of a sudden? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, and, magically, all the computer running BIOS and not UEFI (like the one I'm currently using) have had their firmware retroactively patched over the aether, so it's all safe now.

      Protip: No, this is not why we have UEFI "all of a sudden".

    13. Re:Is this why we have UEFI all of a sudden? by semi-extrinsic · · Score: 1

      Nope - that'd be Secure Boot. There's nothing inherently wrong with UEFI.

      Au contraire. See e.g. the rants of people who have to implement UEFI support in Linux: http://lwn.net/Articles/444666/

      This patch allocates the boot services regions during EFI init and makes sure that they're executable. Then, after SetVirtualAddressMap(), it discards them and everyone lives happily ever after. Except for the ones who have to work on EFI, who live sad lives haunted by the knowledge that someone's eventually going to write yet another firmware specification.

      --
      for i in `facebook friends "=bday" 2>/dev/null | cut -d " " -f 3-`; do facebook wallpost $i "Happy birthday!"; done
    14. Re:Is this why we have UEFI all of a sudden? by hawkinspeter · · Score: 1

      Ah, I didn't realise it was like that. I was under the impression that it was an improvement over the old dos boot method, but maybe not so much.

      In principle I still think that Secure Boot itself is not the problem if the users are always allowed to use keys of their choosing. However, it's being abused to lock hardware to the manufacturer rather than letting the buyers do what they want with it.

      --
      You're a temporary arrangement of matter sliding towards oblivion in a cold, uncaring universe
    15. Re:Is this why we have UEFI all of a sudden? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well hey. Ignoring SeLinux/Flask et cet., maybe the NSA considers Linux to be a plot to destroy US economy through malware.

  5. Guys seriously please dont hate us! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    A bios attack? Really? You mean the best cripling attack they can come up with is updating my bios to a copy of doom? NSA attempts to not be seen as the axis of evil yet fails once again

    1. Re:Guys seriously please dont hate us! by Austrian+Anarchy · · Score: 2

      I found this part of that odd: The NSA says it closed this vulnerability by working with computer manufacturers.

      Did they work with a time machine to take care of machines built with this vulnerability? Includes those that are set not to automatically upgrade BIOS, of course.

      --
      Time Bomber the Book coming soon.
    2. Re:Guys seriously please dont hate us! by danceswithtrees · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Includes those that are set not to automatically upgrade BIOS, of course

      Two words: BIOS backdoor!

      More importantly, they need to show that the massive dragnet of surveillance of all Americans was essential to find out about this.

      Another thing, ironic that the US worries about other people doing things that it has already done. For example, the US created Stuxnet and is worried someone else will follow our lead. The US dropped a nuclear bomb on civilians and we are worried someone else will follow our lead.

    3. Re:Guys seriously please dont hate us! by MrBandersnatch · · Score: 5, Informative

      I thought it was odd too untli I read the article and realised they were not talking about a real threat, they were talking about an analysts scenario. To quote:

      "One of our analysts actually saw that the nation state had the intention to develop and to deliver — to actually use this capability — to destroy computers."

      So basically this is a fear-mongering story since if the country in question had had the intention and capability to deploy such an attack, it would have been SUCCESSFUL. Only a small proportion on PCs would have been "fixed" if they had "worked with computer manufacturers".

      They really do think everyone is stupid don't they?

    4. Re:Guys seriously please dont hate us! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Yes.they do. And they're mostly right. there's only a majority of 535 people they need to convince though.

    5. Re:Guys seriously please dont hate us! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The NSA already patched our bioses for us via the appropiate backdoors. Don't worry it has all been taken care of.

    6. Re:Guys seriously please dont hate us! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know how they fixed this. The 'vulnerability' they talk about seems to be that the BIOS is flashable (they are by default, for firmware updates or unbricking) as it asks for the users permission beforehand. If they've fixed it, does it mean they've made it impossible to flash the BIOS now? Stinks to high heaven tbh.

    7. Re:Guys seriously please dont hate us! by fermion · · Score: 1

      Movie plot terrorism. It seems to be what our national security is based. We saw this movie where this mac was hooked up to an alien networks and crashed the whole thing. So we can't let macs into the office.

      --
      "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    8. Re:Guys seriously please dont hate us! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We don't let macs into the office because they're shit for business and don't play nice with active directory

    9. Re:Guys seriously please dont hate us! by SlippyToad · · Score: 1

      LOL. Who remembers the dreaded "Michelangelo" virus?

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelangelo_(computer_virus)

      Of course, it turned out to be John McAfee's marketing program for his virus scanner, and nothing to get excited about.

      --
      One day I feel I'm ahead of the wheel / the next it's rolling over me / I can get back on / I can get back on
  6. Sheesh. by EasyTarget · · Score: 1

    They call themselves the 'intelligence' community, but even that is a lie.

    --
    "Oops, I always forget the purpose of competition is to divide people into winners and losers." - Hobbes
    1. Re:Sheesh. by Stolpskott · · Score: 1

      They call themselves the 'intelligence' community, but even that is a lie.

      No, no... the NSA is always on the lookout for intelligence. One of their analysts at one point had some intelligent material in their possession. But given the choice of spit or swallow, it was swallowed, flushed and lost.

  7. Expect these claims to be walked back by the_scoots · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Once those pesky real journalists that insist on facts and sources start digging into this, I'd expect the cataclysmic claims will be slowly walked back to something much less sinister, like almost all other claims of thwarted plots.

    1. Re:Expect these claims to be walked back by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It doesn't matter. You have the resounding shout into the ears of the masses, followed by the trickling in of facts. The big emotional movement comes from the resounding shout; unless you're torn down in a huge uproar from an angered populous, the facts will be ignored and shrugged at.

    2. Re:Expect these claims to be walked back by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      those pesky real journalists that insist on facts and sources

      Well, good luck finding them. They haven't been seen in decades. Just slap "allegedly" on something, put it prominently out there, and in the end if you look like a total ass for getting it wrong, issue a 2-second retraction at the end of the newscast while the credits are rolling (or in a little errata box buried on the bottom of page A36).

    3. Re:Expect these claims to be walked back by aeranvar · · Score: 1

      I think there's real problem here when it comes to understanding the subject matter. I suspect the those pesky real journalists probably don't enough about the tech side of things to ask the questions they really need to be asking in order to debunk this.

    4. Re:Expect these claims to be walked back by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not sure why: firmware-based exploits tend to be the most devastating, as they can physically damage hardware. A bug that wipes your data is annoying because you have to restore from backups, while a bug that plays jingle bells on your hard drive will necessitate hardware replacement (with potentially equally susceptible parts), /plus/ BMR downtime, and that's assuming your backups aren't toast, too.

      The mere idea that the BIOS could be attacked from userspace is fecking terrifying at every conceivable level.

    5. Re:Expect these claims to be walked back by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1

      Once those pesky real journalists that insist on facts and sources start digging into this, I'd expect the cataclysmic claims will be slowly walked back to something much less sinister, like almost all other claims of thwarted plots.

      Are you serious? One of their agents saw that they had the intention!

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    6. Re:Expect these claims to be walked back by Bucc5062 · · Score: 1

      All good sources, but not visible to the masses. Unless ABC, NBC, CNN, even FOX come out and say "that was crap" most people wont get it. As those stations have much to lose calling out a major government agency, doubtful they will run with this story.

      Oh if NPR cold do a report...

      --
      Life is a great ride, the vehicle doesn't matter
    7. Re:Expect these claims to be walked back by Raenex · · Score: 1

      All good sources, but not visible to the masses. Unless ABC, NBC, CNN, even FOX come out and say "that was crap" most people wont get it.

      I'm not so sure these days. Probably with a certain demographic, but times have changed a lot, and the people paying attention to the news get a lot of it online from various sources.

    8. Re:Expect these claims to be walked back by jwhitener · · Score: 1

      Something has become flawed in the editorial / review / vetting process at 60 minutes. The previous Benghazi story screw up (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/cbs-asks-lara-logan-to-take-leave-after-flawed-benghazi-report/) and now this NSA "puff piece" has made me wary of anything 60-minutes reports now.

    9. Re:Expect these claims to be walked back by jv+lee · · Score: 1

      All we can say for sure is that Mac gave them the ocular pat down and the results were inconclusive.

  8. Suuure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    And this rock keeps tigers away.

    1. Re:Suuure by techsimian · · Score: 2

      Mine's a flowerpot...with a wilted daisy

    2. Re:Suuure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mine is a 12 GA slug gun.

    3. Re: Suuure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's a strangely large projectile if you are just using it to kill slugs. Can't you just put some egg shells in your garden like everyone else?

    4. Re:Suuure by Minwee · · Score: 1

      But you don't see any tigers around, do you?

  9. the 'plot' has been revealed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    so that's a step

    1. Re:the 'plot' has been revealed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      don't worry
      "it's a trap"

  10. Fudupe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Dupe, full of FUD and propoganda. All in one handy to go sized container.

  11. Translation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    "Spy agency claims world saved by spy agency during week of intense scrutiny of standard operating procedures."

    1. Re:Translation by bob_super · · Score: 1

      Someone on ./ did call it yesterday. he was only wrong in that he said "next week"

  12. Not buying this by Akratist · · Score: 5, Insightful

    China holds a huge amount of our debt. They want us to buy their stuff and to borrow money from them. Why cripple our economy? Or, even worse, why do something like this that will point a finger back to them and stir up the pot against them? (and possibly lad to embargos, and so on)

    1. Re:Not buying this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The attack probably originated within the borders of China, but wasn't an act of the government. If the Chinese government instigated it and if it would have succeeded, it would basically amount to a declaration of war. I don't think that's what they want.

    2. Re:Not buying this by WankersRevenge · · Score: 5, Informative

      China holds a huge amount of our debt.

      Our debt is around 17 trillion dollars. Of that 17 trillion, China owns around 1.2 trillion. A large number for sure, but not something I'd say is a rather small percentage of the total debt. The debt owned by the public equates to 12 trillion which is something I'd call huge.

      National debt of the United States

    3. Re:Not buying this by Rob+the+Bold · · Score: 5, Informative

      China holds a huge amount of our debt. They want us to buy their stuff and to borrow money from them. Why cripple our economy? Or, even worse, why do something like this that will point a finger back to them and stir up the pot against them? (and possibly lad to embargos, and so on)

      Ya, it makes no sense. Like if I pulled up to the Starbucks drive-thru to order a venti double-skinny mocha latteachio with no foam and instead they went all Goldfinger on my car. You don't try to kill your best customer.

      Likewise if this was some freelance/rogue/criminal/terrorist operation inside China, I'd think they (the Chinese) would be motivated to foil it themselves for the same reasons.

      The NSA should have cooked up a more plausible bogus plot to foil, but instead they don't even respect us enough to make up a believable lie.

      --
      I am not a crackpot.
    4. Re:Not buying this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You would think that any run-of-the-mill reporter would have asked that question. Why didn't the famed 60 minutes reporters bother to ask for a motive?

    5. Re:Not buying this by tsqr · · Score: 0

      $1.2T is over 7% of $17T. An institutional investor holding more than a few percent of a company's stock is considered a major shareholder; I don't think saying that China holds a huge amount of our debt is much of a stretch. And you refer to the debt owned by the public as if it were owned by individuals and not foreign governments, but the Wikipedia article you cite states, "Debt held by the public, such as Treasury securities held by investors outside the federal government, including that held by individuals, corporations, the Federal Reserve System and foreign, state and local governments." So China's portion of the debt is public debt, and they hold 10% of that. Non-public debt is that held by our Federal government itself. The most recognizable component of non-public debt is the Social Security Trust Fund.

    6. Re:Not buying this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      China holds a huge amount of our debt. They want us to buy their stuff and to borrow money from them. Why cripple our economy? Or, even worse, why do something like this that will point a finger back to them and stir up the pot against them? (and possibly lad to embargos, and so on)

      You hold to the old model that the USA is the Big Economy and China is the little dependent. That scenario has been reversing over the last decade or 2 and in no small part because while Americans can buy cheap stuff from China, what Chinese buy from America isn't so cheap. So unlike the USA, it's worthwhile for them to be self-sufficient.

      Eventually, China will decide they don't need the USA and it might prove worthwhile to them to squash the USA.

    7. Re:Not buying this by usuallylost · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Don't forget the other 3 or 4 trillion in US dollars they are holding as cash reserves. If China did something to bring down our economy their exposure would be far worse than the debt that they hold. It would impact their hard currency reserves and an unknown amount of additional US currency held by various Chinese companies and individuals.

      If this was a governmental effort in China my guess is it would be more along the lines of something that would be held back in case there was a confrontation between the US and China. Rather than something that would just be randomly used. If it was some private individual or crime group who knows what their intentions would be. Unless they sell new computers how would they monetize this? Whole thing sounds kind of suspect to me.

    8. Re:Not buying this by Will.Woodhull · · Score: 1

      I'm guessing that the "attack plan" originated in one of the NSA's back rooms, and Snowden could supply a lot of detail about it, and about other red herrings and contingency plans the NSA boys have developed just in case some activity started to slide sideways into broad daylight, and they needed to do some damage control.

      The NSA has been competent enough at what it does to have amassed all this information on everybody over the years. That strongly suggests that it is competent enough to have prepared contingency plans to use if any of their activities started to go bad. The only question is how extensive those contingency plans might be. Do their contingencies include threats of blackmail of elected officials or top level civil servants? If they would never go that far, then how far would they go to protect their agency, their mission, and-- incidentally-- their asses?

      The NSA needs to be shut down. Its core mission and values cannot be reconciled with the values expressed in the USA Constitution.

      --
      Will
    9. Re:Not buying this by jandrese · · Score: 1

      I don't know, 1.2 trillion dollars still sounds like a lot of debt to me.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    10. Re:Not buying this by Princeofcups · · Score: 1

      China holds a huge amount of our debt. They want us to buy their stuff and to borrow money from them. Why cripple our economy? Or, even worse, why do something like this that will point a finger back to them and stir up the pot against them? (and possibly lad to embargos, and so on)

      Because things like debt only matter to those that play the game of capitalism. Let me put this another way, IT IS NOT REAL. Any government can change their economy, privatize banks, redefine the value of money, take money from one sector and put it into another. Look, it's all just a game. What America fears most is for the world to stop playing its game, which is why we have such a huge military.

      --
      The only thing worse than a Democrat is a Republican.
    11. Re:Not buying this by ShawnX · · Score: 1

      That's what I thought too, there's no logic to this at all.

      --
      Everyone wants a Tux in their life.
    12. Re:Not buying this by caseih · · Score: 1

      I think it's ironic that US government bonds are still considered a safe investment. A bank takes money you deposit with them and invests it at a profit, using a portion of that profit (near zero, let's be honest) to pay you back for giving them money. The government seems to *not* be in the business of doing that. Any money you lend them gets spent straight away. Yet I guess it's safe because if you want to get your money back from the US government they just sell a bunch more bonds to some other hapless person to pay you. This works as long as we have a national appetite and tolerance for debt.

      And this is really the whole reason a default on the national debt would really hurt the country. Yes it would affect the Chinese, but since most of the debt consists of Americans' own retirement money, a default would instantly wipe out the retirement savings of a generation or two. The economic impact of that would be staggering indeed. So in the meantime, even though the right-wing hawks bluster, even they know they have to keep the thing going. At least until they are dead.

    13. Re:Not buying this by MarkvW · · Score: 1

      Yeah . . .. And in the 19th Century Great Britain held an even vaster proportion of our national debt. Didn't turn out quite so great for those Brits, though.

    14. Re:Not buying this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yes, but lets play devils advocate here. not all Chinese nationals think in such a capitalist driven ideal. China, we shouldn't forget, is a big place. and complex. and there still a lot of hard line communists there. look, it wasn't so long ago (based on my close friends and colleagues who are in their early 40's) that many people in chinese society were yelling and waving the little red book in the air. and they'll be the first to tell you that the dynamics inside china are complex. so what i'm saying is that, while i agree that their economy is intimately tied to the west and yes that may be a disaster if it fell apart, don't for a second believe that there aren't groups within china that could give a damn about such a downfall of capitalism occurring. now, do i believe that trite POS that the NSA barfed on us this weekend? no of course not, it was PR. but lets not be naive and just discredit the underlying idea that some inside china (and elsewhere) are working to undermine the global economy and this maybe is indeed a potential problem for all of us.

    15. Re:Not buying this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe it was a misguided Apple fan who wanted to ensure that the only working computers are made by Apple. ;-)

    16. Re:Not buying this by Kardos · · Score: 1

      The debt/exports thing sort of makes sense, if you assume they have no aspirations of becoming the next superpower. But in reality, they would gladly step into that role if they could easily pull the rug out from under the americans.

    17. Re:Not buying this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      perhaps the left hand does no always know what the right hand is doing....

    18. Re:Not buying this by jandrese · · Score: 1

      The problem is: What's safer? Certainly not the stock market. The Euro has been getting hammered for a long time now, as has the Yen. China (partially) pegs their currency to the dollar. Corporate bonds are fairly safe, but you can never be sure that you're not investing in another Enron or Washington Mutual. Even if you find a nice stable country to invest in (Canada?), it's economy is going to be way too small to absorb everything the US does.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    19. Re:Not buying this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      China does not equal Chinese government. Saying "it was China" is just a kinda journalistically irresponsible way of saying the attack came from China. Tons and tons of people means tons and tons of criminals. A lot of cybercrime comes from there simply because of their massive population and fast-growing computer use. The average hacker doesn't care (or possibly even know) how U.S. Treasuries work.

    20. Re:Not buying this by Luyseyal · · Score: 1

      The debt owned by the public equates to 12 trillion which is something I'd call huge.

      Interestingly, U.S. household wealth topped $74.8 trillion this year, making you wonder if those debt hawks are squawking about a problem that's not as bad as it sounds out of context.

      -l

      --
      Help cure AIDS, cancer, and more. Donate your unused computer time to worldcommunitygrid.org. Join Team Slashdot!
    21. Re:Not buying this by mark_reh · · Score: 1

      That's why the plot was carried out by people who were speculating in currency exchanges. Who would sell a contract that has the dollar dropping dramatically (instead of its long, slow, steady decline) unless they were crazy or knew something others didn't (like the existence of an army of hackers setting up botnets to distribute malware that destroys computers in the US)?

    22. Re:Not buying this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If that was your order, you deserved every bit of the Goldfinger slice-n-dice on your car. You don't sound like a "best" customer, you sound like a fuckin' prick.

    23. Re:Not buying this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would not rule out this thing to be true. BUT - this allegation demands some very serious, hard, verifiable PROOF. Otherwise its just an ALLEGATION.

      I assume* NSA does have exactly this capability and they now "infer" the Chinese have this capability, too. Pot calling Kettle black.

      * based on how shitty C-based stuff is and based on the scraps of information straight from the horse herself. Start analysing Gen Dempsey's speeches and their "cyber red telephone to the Russians" thing.

    24. Re:Not buying this by reve_etrange · · Score: 1

      You're conflating the operational aspects of private lending and so-called public borrowing via bond sales. First, the US federal government is the sole issuer of the dollar, borrows solely in dollars and permits the dollar to float against other currencies. Holders of dollar assets (reserves or Treasury securities) have no special rights of exchange or conversion. It is therefore not possible for the US federal government to undergo a forced default.

      Second, as a matter of logic, the government as sole currency issuer spends first and taxes or borrows afterwards. In fact, currently the government spends simply by crediting bank accounts. This constitutes a 'reserve add' which tends to push down interest rates and increase inflationary pressures. They counter these pressures by conducting a subsequent 'reserve drain,' either through taxation (which extinguishes private sector assets) or through bond sales (which maintain private sector asset levels but increase the interest rate slightly).

      --
      .: Semper Absurda :.
    25. Re:Not buying this by reve_etrange · · Score: 1

      Nothing is safer than US Treasury securities in terms of default risk. The reason being that the US is the sole issuer of dollars, borrows solely in dollars, and permits the dollar to float internationally. This means that the US has no commitments as to the total number of dollars which exists, and there is zero risk of a forced US default. This is actually true for any country which is the sole issuer of its currency, borrows solely in that currency and permits that currency to float. Canada, Australia, Great Britain and Japan are further examples, unlike China and Russia (who defend exchange rate pegs against other currencies), or Eurozone nations (who do not issue their currencies).

      Of course, there are other important risks, such as inflation risk, but despite what some ratings agencies seem to think, inflation is not a "form of default."

      US Securities (and similar) are important to financial markets for a number of reasons, but one of the main ones is that they tell us what the interest rate should be for a zero risk asset. This provides a baseline which helps them determine what rates ought to be earned by assets which do have default risk.

      --
      .: Semper Absurda :.
    26. Re:Not buying this by reve_etrange · · Score: 1

      Great point. Likewise, real terms of trade with China are in our favor. They exchange their real resources and expend their labor in return for nothing more than our notionally valued financial assets (aka fiat money).

      --
      .: Semper Absurda :.
    27. Re:Not buying this by reve_etrange · · Score: 1

      China is a long way away from that stage of their economic rise. First their economy has to become capable of consuming its own outputs, so that they can allow wages to rise, the renminbi to appreciate, etc.

      Even then, this wont be bad for the US, though it will certainly change our trade relations with China. A stronger renminbi will imply a weaker dollar, so it is likely the US current account would improve, possibly to the point of restoring a trade surplus. Concomitantly, "re-shoring" will occur, reducing US unemployment. The downside will be that we wont be able to consume Chinese resources and labor (in return for nothing more than US paper, I might add) any more. But we have plenty of our own...and like I said, the implication is increased production and employment in the US.

      In reality domestic and international macroeconomics is not characterized by simple black-or-white, up-or-down relationships. Instead, there are trade-offs between different types of economic roles. Mercantilism (the belief in a fixed quantity of wealth) is false, because incoming solar energy and human ingenuity create more wealth than was represented by Earth's initial allotment of scarce resources. The implications to policy of these facts are critical, because optimal growth for individual nations is no longer obtained via beggar-thy-neighbor approaches.

      --
      .: Semper Absurda :.
  13. in other news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    NSA wrote the malware and implicated China, because "everyone" "knows" not to trust China.

    1. Re:in other news by multisync · · Score: 2

      NSA wrote the malware and implicated China

      That was my thought. The only countries who have attempted something on the scale of what the NSA is alleging are (allegedely) the United States and Isreal, who (allegedely) unleashed Stuxnet on the world.

      And I agree with the poster above - why would China wish to cripple the economy of one of the largest customers of its goods.

      This isn't passing the smell test.

      --
      I don't care why you're posting AC
    2. Re:in other news by paiute · · Score: 4, Funny

      Maybe one part of the NSA wrote the malware and another part found out about it and stopped them.

      --
      If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
    3. Re:in other news by melikamp · · Score: 1

      But most likely, one part of the NSA wrote the malware, another part found out about it, and then both the malware and an attempt to stop it failed due to their utter incompetence.

  14. I'm so scared by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Please, won't the NSA protect me? It's become clear to me now that the only way to save our cherished freedoms is carpet bombing them.

  15. What a load of bollocks by dido · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If these attackers the NSA supposedly thwarted (the Chinese it is speculated), managed to gain control over large numbers of computers with access enough to damage their firmware, it would make far better sense to keep those machines alive and working for them instead. You could cause far more damage to the US economy by keeping those machines alive and pwn3d than if you simply bricked them. A bricked machine will cost a few hundred dollars to fix. A pwn3d machine is a gift that keeps on giving!

    --
    Qu'on me donne six lignes écrites de la main du plus honnête homme, j'y trouverai de quoi le faire pendre.
    1. Re:What a load of bollocks by cryptoluddite · · Score: 1

      A hosed machine has to be replaced... and the replacements are made in China... and the replacements can have other flaws built in. So this would be a total win for China as long as they can do it anonymously and not get the blame for it.

    2. Re:What a load of bollocks by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      A hosed machine has to be replaced... and the replacements are made in China... and the replacements can have other flaws built in. So this would be a total win for China as long as they can do it anonymously and not get the blame for it.

      OK, so then...

      Chinese hackers somehow hid a BIOS-bricking malware in an undisclosed number of machines from an undisclosed number of manufacturers for an undisclosed number of years, and their nefarious plan is to activate said malware just to make people have to buy new computers with new malware on them?

      Goddamn; that's such a ridiculously circuitous plot, I don't think even the Robot Devil could wrap his head around it...

      The more likely possibility is that the NSA is lying.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    3. Re:What a load of bollocks by fldsofglry · · Score: 1

      I came here to post what the parent posted. I also figured your response would come next. China would get money, but so would American companies who market and sell the machines. So it wouldn't be total win for China as American companies would "win" too, by selling replacement computers. I even thing that bricking all the computers would actually stimulate the economy.

    4. Re: What a load of bollocks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      u farking paranoid neckbeard, u think a god damn bios hack on a bulk manufactured pc destined for god knows where is magically gonna farkin sprout legs and phone home like E.T.?

    5. Re:What a load of bollocks by seven+of+five · · Score: 1

      Let me get this straight... you're saying it's possible to mess up the BIOS so badly that reflashing isn't an option?

    6. Re:What a load of bollocks by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Yes. It's possible to mess up a BIOS so badly that you can't reflash through software. That makes them a "brick" for most definitions of brick.

    7. Re:What a load of bollocks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ok, guess what? I have a Dell (yes, Dell) laptop. It a UEFI Bios, steep step tech, on and on. Anyway, i did a update to win8, it shut down, rebooted and now have the famous BSOD. Called Dell, they sent a installation disk, got the disk and try to re-install. It says not drive found ! Virus, bad parts, of course, it's 15 days past its warranty date. ??

    8. Re:What a load of bollocks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is one of the reasons I will never buy nor own a Lenovo computer. It disturbs me that so many people do.

      Funny, that's one of the secondary/tertiary reasons I bought a Lenovo computer. It may be preloaded with PLA backdoors, but it's probably not preloaded with NSA backdoors. Since I'm not working for any government or military, nor do I ever intend to visit China, I'd rather use hardware that's precompromised by a nation that has no power over me.

    9. Re:What a load of bollocks by onepoint · · Score: 1

      Sorry, but that plot line is rather old. Analog magazine in the 80's. IIRC the story line is about how business fight but using non-lethal weapons, so I knife stab would cause your armor to slow down, a bullet shot would stop you ... then when it was over, someone would stop by and pick you up and turn on your systems ( life support always worked ). at one point in the story, it mentions that a chip from Taiwan stopped the gun from shooting and the character realized that the chip comes from the other-side which planted a virus in the circuits.

      fun reading as i remember
       

      --
      if you see me, smile and say hello.
  16. house of cards? by AntEater · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Does this strike anyone else as being utterly ridiculous? "Cataclysmic"?? I mean, if a bunch of bricked computers could bring down our economy (and possibly the global economy) then isn't the whole thing in need of some serious attention? Maybe we've built an unreasonable amount of dependence on something that is entirely too frail to warrant such trust? - both the computer systems and our current economic system.

    --
    Alex, I'll take keybindings not used by Emacs for $400....
    1. Re:house of cards? by supremebob · · Score: 4, Interesting

      If anything, bricking a few million old PC's might actually have a stimulating impact on the economy. When the users toss out their 5 year old system that is probably still running Windows XP, they will likely go out and buy a shiny new laptop from Dell or HP that comes with a copy of Windows 8.1 and Office 2012. It will probably come with a "free" trial subscription of McAfee or Symantec virus protection as well. Lots of profit to be had by all in the IT industry.

      When you think about it that way, it makes you wonder who paid the Chinese programmers to write this malware.

    2. Re:house of cards? by AntEater · · Score: 1

      You gotta love it when economic success is defined by GDP. I've heard that hurricanes and large earthquakes are good for the economy too.

      --
      Alex, I'll take keybindings not used by Emacs for $400....
    3. Re:house of cards? by fldsofglry · · Score: 1

      exactly. You win for the most insightful post of the day. Unfortunately, the mods haven't agreed with that assessment, yet.

    4. Re:house of cards? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have just fallen for the broken window fallacy. You assume that simply spending money replacing something that is working as well as is needed will stimulate the economy. That same money can no longer be spent on larger improvements - or even just maintaining the business. If the business was planning to spend the same money on a new employee, so that they could build more widgets, they no longer can. If the individual was going to spend that money on food, they either go foodless or go without a computer - either way harming productivity.

    5. Re:house of cards? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't forget wars.

    6. Re:house of cards? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If anything, bricking a few million old PC's might actually have a stimulating impact on the economy.

      Not really
      It would be just as "stimulating" for the economy as an earthquake, hurricane, or flood.

    7. Re:house of cards? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, because:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_fallacy
      Appropriate in more ways than one.

    8. Re:house of cards? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window

    9. Re:house of cards? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      well that or go out and get some new hardware and switch to open source because windows hasn't made a better product since xp. so maybe the real threat came from Linus instead of the Chinese?

    10. Re:house of cards? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When the users toss out their 5 year old system that is probably still running Windows XP, they will likely go out and buy a shiny new laptop from Dell or HP that comes with a copy of Windows 8.1 and Office 2012.

      If you toss the old computer out the window, you buy a new computer AND a new window, inducing even MORE commerce!

      Fuck it. I'm going to go smash every window I see, just to kickstart the economy.

    11. Re:house of cards? by Kielistic · · Score: 2

      All those broken Windows machines would definitely stimulate the economy. Sound economic theory at its finest.

    12. Re:house of cards? by supremebob · · Score: 1

      It might not be economically stimulating for the person who has to buy the new computer, but it would certainly be economically stimulating for Dell, HP, Microsoft, McAfee, and Symantec. That was kinda the point.

    13. Re:house of cards? by nbauman · · Score: 1

      And who do we buy those computers from?

      That's right -- China!

    14. Re:house of cards? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I mean, if a bunch of bricked computers could bring down our economy (and possibly the global economy) then isn't the whole thing in need of some serious attention? Maybe we've built an unreasonable amount of dependence on something that is entirely too frail to warrant such trust?

      Yes, please see exhibit A: high-frequency trading.

    15. Re:house of cards? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you include productivity gains from using newer hardware and software then the overall economic effect may be positive regardless of the broken windows fallacy.

    16. Re:house of cards? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Are you suggesting that more PCs with Windows 8.1, Office 2012, and McAfee is going to help the economy?

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    17. Re:house of cards? by toddestan · · Score: 1

      If that's the case, then why haven't those computers been upgraded already?

  17. We DO need global surveillance. by mha · · Score: 1, Insightful

    I would really like to have a global database accessible to anyone where everyone who actually believes this and other utter nonsense and obvious BS stories is registered. Forum owners and people interacting with such people are then automatically informed by their software whenever they read information from one of those people, and they will have to wear a t-shirt that says "I'm really gullible".

    Basically, I don't mind Facebook, Google or the NSA - I *do* mind that they keep the data to themselves and that they exempt themselves. Put everything in the open - and I mean *every thing*. Ooops, that 2nd sentence went off on a tangent...

    1. Re:We DO need global surveillance. by cusco · · Score: 1

      You might like Bill Engvall's skit Here's Your Sign. The idea is that stupid people should be made to carry a sign so that you wouldn't accidentally trust them to do something beyond their capabilities, such as park your car.

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
  18. Also: The NSA Never Lies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There's stuxnet, too. Who made that one again?

  19. And therefore... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    we need the phone metadata and complete internet activity history and future of every american.

  20. Prove it by bradley13 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Right, sure they did. A BIOS attack of the sort hinted at in this interview is difficult to believe.

    If they worked with computer manufacturers to close some such massive security hole, then they can easily point to the historical vulnerability. The technical community can verify their claims. Failing that, no, I do not believe such an attack ever existed outside the overheated imagination of some technically illiterate NSA bureaucrat.

    In other news, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.

    --
    Enjoy life! This is not a dress rehearsal.
    1. Re:Prove it by rmdingler · · Score: 2

      Another TLA that seems appropriate at this juncture is FUD. It's not tough to believe the security game might be painted as another necessary sacrifice of freedoms in exchange for security. Will citizens pick necessary evil we know >malevolent threat from abroad?

      --
      Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

      Ernest Hemingway

    2. Re:Prove it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If they worked with computer manufacturers, it was not to close a hole.

    3. Re:Prove it by sunderland56 · · Score: 2

      If they worked with computer manufacturers to close some such massive security hole, then they can easily point to the historical vulnerability.

      Except, there is none. The BIOS is not connected to the internet; the computer's operating system is. Any vulnerability that would allow remote updating of the BIOS is a vulnerability in Windows/MacOS/Linux/etc., and not in the BIOS or hardware; so working with computer manufacturers is pointless.

      Many BIOSes have a setting to allow/prevent the updating of the BIOS from the OS; if your machine has that, and it is set to block updates, then there IS no vulnerabilty at all. If your machine does not have that, then the fix would be to update your BIOS.... over the internet....

    4. Re:Prove it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right, sure they did. A BIOS attack of the sort hinted at in this interview is difficult to believe.

      If they worked with computer manufacturers to close some such massive security hole, then they can easily point to the historical vulnerability. The technical community can verify their claims. Failing that, no, I do not believe such an attack ever existed outside the overheated imagination of some technically illiterate NSA bureaucrat.

      In other news, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.

      Next up......Unicorn Lair!!!

    5. Re:Prove it by sandytaru · · Score: 2

      Probably this story was accepted by the same guy that approved monitoring for terrorists in World of Warcraft.

      --
      Occasionally living proof of the Ballmer peak.
    6. Re:Prove it by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Yea. They do know that most BIOSes never get updated, right?

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    7. Re:Prove it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yeah, everyone knows the terrorists are using telegram.org/ to plan their devious doings.

    8. Re:Prove it by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2

      Perhaps more importantly, even if their claims are 100% true, they are basically irrelevant to the 'read absolutely everybody's email on the entire planet' side of the NSA, and instead support the 'do tedious work on making sure computer security sucks less' side of the NSA.

      Building a dystopian panopticon surveillance apparatus is of limited use for preventing such an attack (best case, maybe the attackers will be dumb enough to chat about it over insecure channels months or years before it's finished); but provides a dangerous incentive to tolerate, or even encourage, vulnerabilities in systems and infrastructure.

      Fixing vulnerabilities is something you can do with nothing more than access to samples of potentially vulnerable things, along with a supply of suitably skilled people paid to poke at them; along with a basic research type group that explores techniques for building future systems more securely.

      If the NSA were known for doing that sort of stuff, nobody would have anything unpleasant to say about them, aside from a few possible grumblings about whether software companies were slacking off because they expected the NSA to clean up after them.

    9. Re:Prove it by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      It is considered...painfully poor practice... but it isn't unheard of for IPMI interfaces to be left accessible to all and sundry, with nothing but some (generally dreadful) vendor firmware between the hostile world and essentially physical-or-better access to the server.

      And for any BIOS not presently connected to the internet, the Distributed Management Task Force is probably working on 'fixing' that.

    10. Re:Prove it by gmuslera · · Score: 1

      If the manufacturer was Samsung it was pretty trivial to be exploited, even running windows or by accident.

    11. Re:Prove it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      IF this were true, working with manufacturers would only fix the vulnerability for new machines, and for those business and consumers that actually do BIOS upgrades on their devices - small percentage.

    12. Re:Prove it by Acapulco · · Score: 1

      Greetings kind sir,

      I have read about this bridge offer of yours and would like to inquiry a bit more about it.

      Where is this bridge located and how much are you asking for it?

      I appreciate the information.

      Good day.

      --
      Slashdot. Unreadable news to annoy nerds. - wonkey_monkey
    13. Re:Prove it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have no concept of how bold the Chinese hackers are, for starters, and your entire line of assumptive reasoning is as bad as the NSA telling us they've foiled a threat without any details. You don't have the information or background to know either way.

    14. Re:Prove it by JakartaDean · · Score: 1

      I confess this is what I can't understand about the whole concept. It's been years since I've had to do a lot of work poking around BIOS settings, but I can't see any reason why BIOS settings would ever need to be writeable by userspace programs, so this attack shouldn't be, well, an attack. What am I missing?

      --
      The subject who is truly loyal to the Chief Magistrate will neither advise nor submit to arbitrary measures (Junius)
    15. Re:Prove it by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Not to mention, any virus based on bricking the computers isn't going to spread very far.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    16. Re:Prove it by joe_frisch · · Score: 1

      There is some value in developing cyber weapons of mass destruction to used as a deterrent, or for retaliation, similar to the way that a number of countries maintain nuclear arsenals. The existence of a possible application does not necessarily imply that such weapons could or were developed, and if they do exist it does not mean that they will be deployed.

      It is well within the job of the NSA to protect us against large scale cyber attacks. The problem here is that they are not longer trusted, so it is impossible to determine if the threat ever really existed, or if their countermeasures (whatever they were) were effective and didn't produce worse vulnerabilities.

    17. Re:Prove it by SpaceLifeForm · · Score: 1

      You are missing the fact that Windows can update the BIOS firmware.

      --
      You are being MICROattacked, from various angles, in a SOFT manner.
    18. Re:Prove it by SpaceLifeForm · · Score: 1

      Overtly, true. Subvertly, you have no way to know. Windows can update the BIOS firmware, and you will not even noticed that it happened.

      --
      You are being MICROattacked, from various angles, in a SOFT manner.
    19. Re:Prove it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indeed. At this point we have to assume this is just one of Alexander's and Clapper's LIES.

      Based on history, we must assume the U.S. DOES HAVE this capability now and they are shit-scared of their own destructive capability. Now that their pants are brown, they "have to assume" other major parties can destroy the world's IT infrastructure, too.

      At least, that's how the "missile gap" claim turned out.

      Again Alexander, prove it or you ARE A LIAR. I will say it in your face if I ever met you or your underlings. Now put that into my file.

    20. Re:Prove it by mdielmann · · Score: 1

      I personally can't stop thinking that the critical infrastructure that they corrected that would have crippled the economy had it not been stopped was the Clipper Chip. So, I guess they aren't really lying!

      --
      Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
    21. Re:Prove it by oobayly · · Score: 1

      Dear Acapulco,

      Due to the difficulty in gaining an expert licence, the bridge is unfortunately no longer for sale. However we have just had a completely unique iron tower come into our inventory.

      Please let us know if you're interested.

      Regards,
      Messrs Trotters and Trotters

    22. Re:Prove it by gweihir · · Score: 1

      I, and many others, would know. And it would be a serious crime to do so in many countries as it changes and potentially damages hardware that is not theirs. Laws that come to mind: "Computer Sabotage", "Changing of Data without Authorization", ...

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  21. NSA: A Plot To Destroy US Economy Through Malware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    FTFY

  22. And by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Here comes Bullshit man to save the day!

    http://youtu.be/1lRIQGU2RRk?t=15s

  23. It's obviously false. by QilessQi · · Score: 5, Funny

    the exploit would have ruined, or 'bricked,' computers across the country, causing untold damage to the national and even global economy

    Sorry, I'm not buying it. Despite the NSA's best efforts, Microsoft did release Vista.

    1. Re:It's obviously false. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Oh, come on! You can do better than that!

      Sorry, I'm not buying it. Despite the NSA's best efforts, Microsoft did release Windows 8, and Windows is bricked without a Start Menu.

    2. Re:It's obviously false. by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      the exploit would have ruined, or 'bricked,' computers across the country, causing untold damage to the national and even global economy

      Sorry, I'm not buying it. Despite the NSA's best efforts, Microsoft did release Vista.

      I know you were making a funny, but you could not possibly be more wrong. The NSA specifically recommended using Windows Vista to improve home network security.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    3. Re:It's obviously false. by QilessQi · · Score: 1

      Wow. Well, I guess it makes sense: a slow, memory-hogging, bad-driver-bricked PC is certainly less useful for spreading worms or hosting botnets.

    4. Re:It's obviously false. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the exploit would have ruined, or 'bricked,' computers across the country, causing untold damage to the national and even global economy

      Sorry, I'm not buying it. Despite the NSA's best efforts, Microsoft did release Vista.

      I know you were making a funny, but you could not possibly be more wrong. The NSA specifically recommended using Windows Vista to improve home network security.

      See? They were trying to undermine Vistas reputation by recommending it! They thought if they recommended it, everyone would think they had a backdoor in it, and thus no one would ever install it, without the NSA having to reveal the real vulnerability. ;-)

  24. Plot twist by is+not+primary · · Score: 1

    By "stopped" they mean, didn't press the go button

  25. BIOS Attacks by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Have been known for years. The problem is you have to gain admin access to the machine first, so basically you are bricking your own botnet.

    LOL.

    1. Re:BIOS Attacks by gweihir · · Score: 0

      Indeed. Sorry, already posted, otherwise this would definitely be a +1 Funny!

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    2. Re:BIOS Attacks by swb · · Score: 2

      I guess it depends on what your goals are.

      Arguably, organized crime could make money by just killing shopkeepers and taking the till. But at some point they realized they could make MORE money by threatening them with death or violence and getting regular payments for "protection". It's recurring money versus one-time money and has a lot less blowback than dead bodies.

      Botnets and remote control of PCs are of more value for crime and intelligence gathering than bricking, so if your goal is long-term value is money or intelligence, then remote-control viruses that let you harvest information are more valuable.

      PC viruses seemed to have evolved in the same way -- a lot of the early ones were stupid and malicious, deleting files, corrupting the OS and rendering it unusable. The more contemporary ones mostly strive for stealth and keeping the computer running so that information of value can be continuously harvested.

      But it's certainly not hard to imagine a scenario where the group responsible has a different goal and bricking PCs is the desired outcome. And maybe it was meant to be a sleeper virus that was only activated under specific circumstances.

      I'm not defending the NSA, either, the story seems implausible because it seems to me that if mass-bricking BIOSes was achievable, someone would have done it by now, either state-sponsored (Israel, Iran, etc) or on a rogue basis. I think there have been some BIOS bricking viruses, but they haven't gotten very far for whatever the reason.

    3. Re:BIOS Attacks by drnb · · Score: 1

      Have been known for years. The problem is you have to gain admin access to the machine first, so basically you are bricking your own botnet.

      Why is that a problem? If the machines are far more valuable to your enemy than to you then yeah, brick 'em at an a very useful moment in time.

  26. "We have met the enemy and he is us." by korbulon · · Score: 1

    So we have to become like China in order to prevent us being destroyed by China.

    1. Re:"We have met the enemy and he is us." by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1
      Well to quote our previous President:

      I’ve abandoned free market principles to save the free market system

      so this is nothing new

      --
      Time to offend someone
    2. Re:"We have met the enemy and he is us." by korbulon · · Score: 1

      If there's anything I've learned about presidential politics with the current and previous POTUS: fool me once, shame on, shame on you. Fool me... you can't get fooled again.

  27. Disbeliever here... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    (1) What would China gain by this?

    (2) How would China prevent this from spreading and destroying their own computers?

    1. Re:Disbeliever here... by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Pesky facts, not in line with story by overlord! Traitor! Terrorist! Go away!

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  28. Really? They got the DMCA repealed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Finally!

  29. BIOS attack eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What about the EFI attack?

  30. Piss-poor reporting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Here is what the Guardian has to say about the report http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/16/nsa-surveillance-60-minutes-cbs-facts

    1. Re:Piss-poor reporting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      From your link:

      Matt Blaze, a computer and information sciences professor at the University of Pennsylvania, said that BIOS could be overwritten by malware, bricking an unsuspecting computer. But the vagueness of the description of the “BIOS Plot” made him suspicious.

      “It would take significant resources – and an extraordinary bit of co-ordination and luck – to actually deploy malware that could do this at scale,” Blaze said.

      “And it's not clear how you'd ‘thwart’ such a scheme if you found out about it if you were NSA, since it's basically a combination of a large number of vulnerabilities spread among a zillion computers rather than one big problem that can be fixed with a single patch.”

      The lack of specificity made cybersecurity expert Robert David Graham dubious that the plot NSA claimed to discover matched the one it described on TV. “All they are doing is repeating what Wikipedia says about BIOS,” Graham blogged, “acting as techie talk layered onto the discussion to make it believable, much like how Star Trek episodes talk about warp cores and Jeffries Tubes.”

  31. make believe by Korruptionen · · Score: 2

    The NSA is keeping us about as safe as the Mars rovers do from martian attacks.... which really is the reason we all know they are there. amiright?

    1. Re:make believe by Chrisq · · Score: 1

      The NSA is keeping us about as safe as the Mars rovers do from martian attacks...

      But that was supposed to be secret ... I saw it on Moonbase Alpha

  32. We've been there, done that; CIH virus by freax · · Score: 5, Interesting

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIH_(computer_virus)

    ps. It didn't destroy the US economy.

    1. Re:We've been there, done that; CIH virus by Krneki · · Score: 1

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIH_(computer_virus)

      ps. It didn't destroy the US economy.

      It all makes sense now!
      Only the Chinese would still run Windows 9x and somehow they manage to connect an infected PC on the Internet, thus the infected PC tried to spread his virus to the US.

      --
      Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
    2. Re:We've been there, done that; CIH virus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If this is it, then their detection and resolution of this 15 years ago, and well before 9/11, totally justify the current dragnet through all worldwide electronic communications.

    3. Re:We've been there, done that; CIH virus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Confirmed - it's definitely that they're referencing. It's from China, yes, but it's not nation-state; it's one hacker, Chen Ing-Hau, and it's old as fuck; it was introduced as part of some firmware updates because the updates were infected; and it's really freaking old, puffed-up and overblown. One of the last of the oldschool VXers.

      Unless, of course, the NSA are talking about their very own attempted-firmware-bricking payload contained within the FOXACID exploit kit, SCORCHEDEARTH?

      Of course, no-one could possibly be endangered by that. It's not a dangerous ready-made virus payload that anyone could use, or a glorified Metasploit. It's a "cyber-weapon". I mean, it's not like they run their clandestine botnets with hundreds of unreleased 0days from C&C servers running Windows Server 2003 or anything, is it?

      Oh, wait. Huh.

  33. What would be to motivation? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Why would China want to destroy US economy? China has a big pile of USD on its hands. It does not make sense!

  34. Which is really irrelevant to the debate by davidannis · · Score: 5, Interesting

    because I can't imagine the scenario in which they uncovered that plot by looking at the metadata from American cellphones.

  35. They did their job is a news story? by BisuDagger · · Score: 2

    NSA needs to stop back pedaling and trying to prove they are a legitimate organization. It's their job to protect us from all types of stuff the general public has never heard of. Maybe they should watch some more Hollywood action films because those actors in the movie are more concerned about OPSEC then the NSA.

    1. Re:They did their job is a news story? by hubie · · Score: 1

      It's their job to protect us from all types of stuff the general public has never heard of.

      That is what it tough about the position they are in. They can't tell you about the stuff they protected you from because it would be classified. Maybe the incidents are few and far between, or maybe they happen every week, but they're not going to be allowed to talk about it. They have a big PR issue right now and there is not a lot they can do to directly address it. Unless you want to argue that nothing should be classified, the best they can say is "trust us" and you need to make sure there is appropriate oversight to what they do.

    2. Re:They did their job is a news story? by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      It's their job to protect us from all types of stuff the general public has never heard of.

      That is what it tough about the position they are in. They can't tell you about the stuff they protected you from because it would be classified. Maybe the incidents are few and far between, or maybe they happen every week, but they're not going to be allowed to talk about it. They have a big PR issue right now and there is not a lot they can do to directly address it. Unless you want to argue that nothing should be classified, the best they can say is "trust us" and you need to make sure there is appropriate oversight to what they do.

      Kinda like the mafia, huh?

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    3. Re:They did their job is a news story? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is what it tough about the position they are in.

      No, safety is 100% irrelevant to me. What's tough about the position they're in is that they're doing things that run counter to what a government organization in a country that's supposed to be the land of the free and the home of the brave should do. What's tough about the position they're in is that their actions (you know which ones) blatantly violate the constitution.

      The question is not, "How many bad guys have you stopped?" That is irrelevant. What is relevant is freedom, and the US constitution. Even if something keeps us safe, it should not be done if it violates freedoms or the constitution.

    4. Re:They did their job is a news story? by hubie · · Score: 1

      I don't disagree with you, but your concerns can only be addressed at the oversight level. If the programs you refer to are classified ones, which I'm sure they are, the NSA will not be allowed to talk about them or publicly acknowledge them. Someone at a very high level would need to declassify them first before they could be publicly discussed. If Congress isn't doing their job overseeing this, people need to get on their asses to address it.

    5. Re:They did their job is a news story? by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      The number of government operations that should be classified are pretty minor. Basically, weapon designs and current locations of troops. The NSA isn't involved in either, and there is no indication that the NSA has protected us from anything. After all, there's nothing that is a credible threat. There are countries that have the means to be a military threat, but we are on at least amicable terms with them. There are countries that hate us, but we could wipe the floor with them. There are terrorists, but overall, they are less of a threat than bathtubs and mostly idiotic (yet the NSA still fails to catch ones that are lucky if they can tie their own shoes). If they want us to trust them, but there is something that must stay classified, have independent review by say, Bruce Schneier and the EFF. If it's all on the up and up, then they'll sign off on it and everything will be fine. If, however, they are power hungry morons who spend half the time trying to hide their bungles, then they would be shut down.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    6. Re:They did their job is a news story? by runeghost · · Score: 1

      How can Congress "do their job" when the intelligence officials who report to them are openly lying to them? (Leaving aside the issue of congressional corruption, post-facto and otherwise.)

    7. Re:They did their job is a news story? by Mitchblahman · · Score: 1

      How can Congress do their job anyways? Most of what they do is controlled by people who give giant campaign donations.

    8. Re:They did their job is a news story? by Samizdata · · Score: 1

      I would argue that the current state of their decryption efforts might need to be kept classified, as much as it makes me vomit a little in my mouth. The problem being that if a hostile party knows their encryption is compromised, then they find new encryption.

      --
      It's not the years, honey, it's the mileage. - Colonel Henry Walton Jones, Jr., Ph.D.
  36. The NSA says it closed this vulnerability by by Chrisq · · Score: 3, Funny

    The NSA says it closed this vulnerability by working with computer manufacturers.

    Ah the Chinese are so helpful ... oh wait!

  37. vulnerability is closed? by wkk2 · · Score: 2

    I'm sure, due to their hard work, all new computer have hardware jumpers to write protect the BIOS....

    1. Re:vulnerability is closed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wouldn't help much if motherboards were manufactured with already backdoored BIOS.

    2. Re:vulnerability is closed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      mod parent up 'freaking hilarious'. Note we still don't have mobile phones with hard user-facing switches for the mic, camera power, and main power either.

  38. A bricked computer isn't the biggest threat by Cro+Magnon · · Score: 4, Informative

    A more dangerous cyber threat would be malware that collects all the users personal information and stores it until the malware writer is ready to use it against the victim.

    Oops!

    --
    Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
    1. Re:A bricked computer isn't the biggest threat by vandamme · · Score: 1

      So it was Google, not China?

  39. Trust by Jimpqfly · · Score: 1

    People don't trust NSA anymore. After all the spying (National and International), declared non-constitutional, they're trying to have better communication? Too late guys ...

  40. Do they mean their own STUXNET? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oh my...!

  41. Another Lie. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    People need to remember when seeing a story like this that the US Intelligence Agencies along with NATO have been implicated in human trafficking, money laundering, extrajudicial murder and we know now domestic espionage with permanent data retention. This story is just a legend they're feeding to the public in relation to the judge's ruling upholding the fourth amendment to the American constitution. We don't need the NSA for any purpose, FISA or the National Security Act. They are labeling nationalists who don't want world government as extremists and these are the people they are tracking for extrajudicial killings in their case management systems.

  42. Stated more accurately by xednieht · · Score: 3, Insightful

    China has discovered NSA's backdoor into computers, and worked with computer manufacturers to build a much more better and newer back door for NSA.

    --

    Hope is the currency of fools
    1. Re:Stated more accurately by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      China worked with computer manufacturers to build a better back door for the NSA?

  43. As so much of the electronics are "made" outside by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If the concern is "national security" - why are the Nations Leaders(TM) allowing the importation of electronics from China then?

    Why "attack" the BIOS - why not just pre-load it with a "phone home" like LG TVs?

  44. I call BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and there is not one shred of evidence referenced in this article.

  45. Clarification by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So, "China" planned to brick America's computers with a BIOS updating virus. But, the NSA was able to foil the attack by working with computer manufactures? So, they were able to prevent "China" from attacking all the BIOSes that come from... China?

    I'm going to give the NSA the benefit of the doubt. I'm going to assume that it was the individual interviewee that was a clueless asshat and that the Agency as a whole is neither that stupid nor stupid enough to think that the public would fall for that lame-brained and fallacious attempt at currying favor.

  46. And the company the created the vulnerabilities??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Microsoft should get the blame for the entire thing.

    And should pay for fixing it.

  47. Credulity and credibility by IanGrant604 · · Score: 1

    And the prize for The Most Credulous Claim goes to...

  48. Bios threat not the worst by stewsters · · Score: 1

    If we really cared about viruses destroying the US economy, we wouldn't be still running XP in the business world.

    1. Re:Bios threat not the worst by gmuslera · · Score: 2

      If we really cared about viruses destroying the US economy, we wouldn't be still running windows in the business world.

      FTFY

  49. Yeah, right, NSA, we believe you soooo much (not) by tekrat · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Please. I saw this on 60 Minutes and that entire pandering two-parter on Sunday night was a such a load of bullshit, I could smell it through the TV.

    And this segment of it was the worst, because it made no sense. I mean, they dumbed the story down for Ma and Pa in Pigsknuckle Arkansas, but for anyone with even a hint of technical acumen, it came off as complete tripe.

    Why *exactly* would China want to destroy the global economy? Such a move would hurt them more than us, because they are in a period of crazy growth, and their entire stability *depends* upon that growth or they'd have rioting.

    Secondly, if a nation wanted to destroy us, why use "malware"? A better way would be to use lobbyists to force more deregulation and let us cut our own throats as we've already seen. Our own greedy bastards will happily destroy the global economy if it means 6 more dollars in *their* pockets.

    The whole thing is fishy and smells of NSA desperation to look good to the average american, and paint the Chinese and Edward Snowden as bad guys we need to be afraid of so that the NSA can "protect" us, by of course, stripping us of all our rights.

    --
    If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
  50. And they "stopped" it, how, exactly? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Suppose it's true. So they stopped this "cataclysmic" event from occurring. Bully for them. But I want to know: how and when? If you're going to stop an attack, you either destroy the "enemy" or fix the problem. If they destroyed the enemy, I'm pretty sure the enemy would be shouting it from the rooftops that the USA was attacking them. Oh, right, it was "covert". Maybe they fixed the problem, then. Did anyone see the NSA come over to their place recently to change the BIOS on their computer? Perhaps the NSA called and scheduled it for a future date? Yah, didn't think so.

    This is PR 101. Don't like the narrative about you? Give them something else to talk about instead.

    1. Re:And they "stopped" it, how, exactly? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did anyone see the NSA come over to their place recently to change the BIOS on their computer? Perhaps the NSA called and scheduled it for a future date? Yah, didn't think so.

      That explains the muddy footprints on my kitchen floor and the tracks left all the way to my bedroom where the computer lives. But oddly those muddy footprints indicate an egress through the bedroom window. Couldn't they have come through the window on the way in and out thereby avoiding the muddy footprints? I will send Abby Sciuto a message via BlackBerry Messenger (BBM) asking her to come over for a visit to fix my computer.

  51. Prove it by gman003 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This doesn't pass the sniff test. What would China gain by *destroying* our economy?

    Sure, China planting surveillance software on every computer, I can believe that. But bricking all the computers in the US doesn't make sense as an espionage move, it doesn't make sense as an economic move (do you think anyone would trust Chinese-made computers when rebuilding?), it doesn't make sense as a propaganda move. It might make sense as a military move as a prelude to invasion, but a) China doesn't want that, b) China probably couldn't do it if they wanted to, and c) even if not fired, the risks of such a weapon being uncovered outweighs any benefit.

    So it doesn't seem like something China would do. So who could it be? Even the NSA is explicitly calling it a nation-state, so it's not a terrorist group like al-Qaeda. If it's a nation-state, it has to be one that thinks (correctly or not) that they can beat the US when it is inevitably discovered (either before or after the attack). Russia's on that list, but I don't see how they would benefit except, again, as a pre-invasion attack, and our relations aren't that bad yet. North Korea might be dumb enough to think they can get away with it, but for the same reasons they probably don't have the capabilities of developing an attack like this. Iran is probably smart enough not to provoke the US with a direct attack, but maybe I'm wrong, or maybe they thought framing China would work.

    Honestly, if someone in the Chinese government got on TV and said "yeah, we made that as a training exercise for defense drills, how the hell did you guys find it in the wild?", I'd believe them more than I'm believing CBS/NSA right now, because that at least makes sense with all the other information.

    Especially since it's REAL FUCKING CONVENIENT for the NSA to suddenly have a major "victory" when they're being revealed as basically a bunch of puppy-kicking freedom-hating fascists.

  52. I'm glad to see everybody's calling bullshit by Trailer+Trash · · Score: 1

    Honestly, the Chinese have more than a trillion dollars of our debt and the fact that we prop up their entire economy by buying stuff from them. The Chinese government wants our country to succeed, otherwise their economy goes in the toilet. And, frankly, we would survive that far easier than they would. They wouldn't even be able to pull a pyrrhic victory out of that one.

    This is just like when the FBI catches a "terrorist" who turns out to be some loser who was goaded into trading his stereo speakers for a couple of grenades that he could throw into a mall.

    It's really time for congress to set up in the budget that every single time these people come up with some total bullshit they lose 10% of their funding. It's pretty clear at this point that these agencies are more interested in concocting reasons for them to stay in business.

  53. I think they have that backwards. by runeghost · · Score: 1

    The NSA is a cataclysmic cyber threat destroying the economy. (And the country too.)

  54. Straws... by jimpop · · Score: 1

    ...grasping for straws.

  55. Bravo, NSA! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You are working hard to destroy the few bits of credibility left.

    This is a criminal organization. It should be disbanded.

  56. Unlikey! China would lose as much as the USA by petes_PoV · · Score: 2
    If the american economy bombs, who will repay all the debt the chinese hold? If there was such a "cataclysmic" financial crash and the USA defaulted on its loans, then the trillions and trillions of dollars owed by the USA becomes junk. How would that help China?

    Further, with their biggest customer deep in the mire, who would they sell their goods to? The same goods they depend on for revenue to keep their own growth moving forward?

    This has got to be the dumbest scare story, no: xenophobic, boogy-man, fiction to come out this year (and it has lots of competition). Although the american debt is a big drag on its economy, it's also so large that it's a problem for the debt holders, too. They are in just as much trouble if the value of that debt drops and therefore have an interest in making sure the USA does not crash and burn - despite what some scared, bigoted and ill-informed media commentators might think.

    --
    politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
  57. cf. "Vietnam" by DdJ · · Score: 2

    "We had to destroy the village in order to save it."

  58. And if you believe any of this by calarndt · · Score: 2

    And if you believe any of this I've got a bridge over troubled waters I'll sell you! But the real problem is there are way too many Americans out there who will fall for this lame tactic.

  59. You can't prove I didn't! by thatkid_2002 · · Score: 4, Funny

    I routinely stop alien invasions. Their lazors are no match for my hands (and let's not mention my other weapon... in my pants).

    Your move NSA - what have you done lately?

    1. Re:You can't prove I didn't! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the NSA claims something, just reverse the statement for something closer to the truth:

      "NSA Plots To Destroy US Economy Through Malware"

    2. Re:You can't prove I didn't! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am intrigued by your ideas of stopping aliens with the weapon in your pants. I wish to know exactly what kind of aliens you are encountering, and to subscribe to your newsletter.

      And to join you in "subduing" these aliens.

      For the good of humanity, of course.

    3. Re:You can't prove I didn't! by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

      No one wants to know about your ability to resist anal probes.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    4. Re:You can't prove I didn't! by kwiecmmm · · Score: 1

      I recall an episode on TV about this very type of issue. In it the city of Springfield established an expensive Bear Patrol to stop an outrageous bear problem (one bear wandered into the town).

      Homer: Well there's not a bear in sight. The Bear Patrol is sure doing its job.
      Lisa: That's specious reasoning, Dad.
      Homer: Thank you, sweetie.
      Lisa: Dad what if I were to tell you that this rock keeps away tigers.
      Homer: Uh-huh and how does it work?
      Lisa: It doesn't work. It's just a stupid rock.
      Homer: I see.
      Lisa: But you don't see any tigers around, do you?
      Homer: Lisa I'd like to buy your rock.

    5. Re:You can't prove I didn't! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (and let's not mention my other weapon... in my pants)

      Thank your for letting them probe your unmentionables so mine stay safe!!!

    6. Re:You can't prove I didn't! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      hey, thanks! at least yo can do your job without sniffing my underwear.

  60. The White House/NSA PR campaign is in full swing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The White House/NSA PR campaign is in full swing with all these feel-good NSA stories coming out in a period of only a few days. We should recognize this for what it is -- PR.

  61. Bullshit! by Sven-Erik · · Score: 3, Informative

    This is just bullshit! If they stopped this attack by "closed this vulnerability by working with computer manufacturers", this would only fix the vulnerability on new computers built after the fix was created, but not on machines already produced and sold.

    This sounds more like a PR campaign to garner positive support after all the negative impact of the releases of the documents Edward Snowden leaked.

    --
    - "Every demand is a prison, and wisdom is only free when it asks nothing." Sir Betrand Russell
  62. CBS 60 Minutes Credibility by retroworks · · Score: 1

    In other news yesterday, CBS 60 Minutes Pelley Award for reporting on the electronics industry, "2008 "The Wasteland", was discredited by the 5th major exhaustive study of "e-waste" exports (this one done by MIT) which shows CBS report that 80% of all "e-waste" exports are not recycled but dumped overseas. From the report, "Quantitative Characterization of Domestic and Transboundary Flows of Used Electronics 12/2013":

    ""The results show that approximately 258.2 million units of used electronic were generated and 171.4 million units were collected in the US in 2010. Export flows were estimated to be 14.4 million units, which is 8.5% of the collected estimate on average. On a weight basis, 1.6 million tons of used electronics were generated in the US in 2010 and 0.9 million tons were collected. Of the amount collected, 26.5 thousand tons were exported, which is 3.1% of the weight collected."

    It is not that CBS 60 Minutes gets the story wrong that bothers me so much as the organization's stonewalling of these studies, after 41 export traders were arrested just in the past year, and after the source organization in Seattle who told them "80% of all e-waste is exported" not only abandoned the "statistic" but claimed never to have said it. http://tinyurl.com/lr7z5n3 What relates this to TFA is that both the ability by the manufacturing country to "brick" PCs they have made and sold, and the original hype about export for reuse, is PLANNED OBSOLESCENCE. If the PCs were bricked, would the economy really collapse? Or would there be a bunch of PCs ready to sell which had a different bios chip? Want to know about OEMs bricking the secondary market, and where "waste" comes from? Read Vance Packard's 1960 book "The Waste Makers", available both in print and on Kindle.

    --
    Gently reply
    1. Re:CBS 60 Minutes Credibility by tibit · · Score: 1

      The real deal is not BIOS or anything, but XP going out of support, and plenty of XP-running hardware simply has no driver support for Windows 7. At work we still have a bunch of XP-running machines that we will replace simply because it's cheaper to replace them than have me and/or another IT guy here spend time doing driver testing on obsolete hardware.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
  63. I repeat by wcrowe · · Score: 2

    The NSA has become the Ministry of Truth.

    --
    Proverbs 21:19
    1. Re:I repeat by CanHasDIY · · Score: 2

      The media has become the Ministry of Truth.

      FTFY.

      In other news, scientists discovered that two plus two actually equals five!

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    2. Re:I repeat by LVSlushdat · · Score: 1

      The media has become the Ministry of Truth.

      Or more likely, the US Department of Propaganda... Doesn't it seem that little Jay Carney, being the White House Press Secretary, wouldn't also be the
      Secretary of that "Department of Propaganda"??

      He's got lying down to a science, almost as good as his boss. Every time I see him speaking, I picture ole "Bagdad Bob", who, as I recall, was Sadam's Propaganda minister... Everytime either he or his boss open their mouth, I hear another lie...

      --
      THANK YOU, Edward Snowden!! Americans owe you a debt of gratitude (whether they know it or not..)
  64. yeah, and... by smash · · Score: 1

    ... i foiled a global internet attack that would have caused routers the world over to explode. just prove i didn't, right?

    --
    I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
  65. From the lab horse's mouth. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    > Called a BIOS attack, the exploit would have ruined, or 'bricked,' computers across the country, causing untold damage to the national and even global economy.

    This is stupid. Malware writers learned a long-long time ago not to kill computers, because virus code cannot run on paper or thin air. They need living but ill computers, whose processing and communication capabilities can be exploited by the infection, to spread spam or mine Bitcoins, etc.

    The black plague killed some 33-40% of medieval european population within weeks. It did that trick 3-4 times during history. Where is yersinia pestis nowadays? It is a Level-4 biohazard lab curiosity, displayed in vials. In contrast, common cold is still with us and successfully exploits your nose to produce green soya, year after year.

    Furthermore, it is not possible to destroy computers by overwriting the BIOS. There is a unwritiable "brain stem" part of the BIOS, which knows only one thing: if the main BIOS mass fails to boot, read first file from floppy disk and overwrite BIOS with it. Even if the BIOS chip is soldered onto the motherboard (say laptop) and cannot be removed for re-writing in an external EEPROM programmer, this trick will save the computer.

    Honestly, NSA is making a Rigoletto of itself, in public. Or maybe it's Yorick, with NSA threatrically proclaming "To be or not to be..."

    1. Re:From the lab horse's mouth. by tibit · · Score: 3, Interesting

      There is a unwritiable "brain stem" part of the BIOS, which knows only one thing: if the main BIOS mass fails to boot, read first file from floppy disk and overwrite BIOS with it.

      I'd like some thing tangible to back it up, since I think it's bullshit. There may have been some bioses like that, maybe even popular ones, but this is not the case anymore since at the minimum such a thing would need at least a minimal USB stack with it - it wouldn't be anywhere near "small" anymore.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    2. Re:From the lab horse's mouth. by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      There is a unwritiable "brain stem" part of the BIOS, which knows only one thing: if the main BIOS mass fails to boot, read first file from floppy disk and overwrite BIOS with it.

      I'd like some thing tangible to back it up, since I think it's bullshit.

      Give 'em a week to whip something semi-convincing up in the lab.

      Sigh... I only wish I was joking...

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
  66. Sinking the ship to drown a few rats. by flayzernax · · Score: 1

    Is not saving the US economy.

    You mean, you got richer while the poor got poorer and infrastructure needed maintenance, protecting us from a trivial to defend against and non-existent threat.

    It's time the American people said fuck no we don't need no big brother to watch over us. I know were about a centaury 2 late, but it's never to late to effect change.

  67. Malware = Windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Brick not computers, but computers with Microsoft's Windows operating system. That's a big difference.

    Internet would be safe, it does not run Microsoft's Windows at all.
    Big companies would be safe, they do not use windows for anything more than workstations replaceable within half of an hour.
    Only morons who use Microsoft's Windows would suffer.

  68. Thank you NSA! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You are my heroes now... ... ... Geeee....

  69. Just one of the cards by s.petry · · Score: 0

    I came to see if NSA took credit for giving TPP reports to Wikileaks, and that's not their claim. I think we'd agree that the NSA is full of sh^$ on their claim of being heros.

    That said, NAFTA did more to destroy the US economy than subprime lending and derivatives markets. TPP puts the nail in the coffin if it's passed. Sub-prime lending and derivatives take property from people, NAFTA and TPP make sure they can't afford to replace it or fight the gangsters^Wbankers that take things away.

    --

    -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

  70. Yeah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sure they did...

    These NSA sacks of shit are getting more and more bold with their lies. It's time they were disbanded. Maybe we could put the manpower to better use shovelling actual manure.

  71. So they worked with the Chinese to stop the ???? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "The NSA says it closed this vulnerability by working with computer manufacturers."
    Aren't most computer part manufactured in China?

  72. Foil this plot by ClassicASP · · Score: 2

    I hear there is a tribe of super-weathy elites running the U.S. behind the scenes who have effectively succeeded in making it rain-bullshit on the American people. Foil that one for me.

  73. We have had BIOS virus attacks before. by seeker_1us · · Score: 3, Funny

    There have been BIOS destroying viruses before. Now the NSA is in the antivirus business? And by doing so, they save the U.S. economy? Even Norton and McAfee don't make this claim.

    1. Re:We have had BIOS virus attacks before. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the NSA has to be in the anti-virus business, what with all the computer viruses we have been infecting people with, they need to make sure that malware doesnt find its way back on to their own systems

    2. Re:We have had BIOS virus attacks before. by mdielmann · · Score: 1

      Well, to be fair, McAfee and Norton are constrained by false advertising laws. The NSA doesn't have such constraints, not being in a position to sell us anything. They just force their work down our throats.

      --
      Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
  74. Somebody is playing stupid so hard... by tibit · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There's this moment when you're acting out when you cross from plausible belief to total, in-your-face disbelief. Does NSA seriously imply that such an attack would have lasting consequences? Do they really think that there wouldn't be many BIOS recovery solutions popping up left, right and center literally within hours? My bet is that within a week there'd be a thriving BIOS recovery business going on all around us, and the damage would be well contained in spite of whatever bullshit the clueless media would be spewing around.

    --
    A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
  75. Fear? by DaWhilly · · Score: 3, Funny

    Now that they have committed themselves to the role of protecting the country, can they track down the people who wish to bring down our country by exploiting our fears?

  76. Hi, I'm with the NSA and... by DigitalSorceress · · Score: 3, Funny

    "Hi [insert computer bios maker here], I'm with the NSA - we've detected a BIOS damaging malware and we would like to you implement these changes to prevent it - No, we totally aren't actually just making shit up to get you to install a backdoor for us, okthxbie"-

    --

    The Digital Sorceress
    1. Re:Hi, I'm with the NSA and... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mind blown.

  77. Godwin? by alexhs · · Score: 1

    The essential American leadership secret does not depend on particular intelligence. Rather, it depends on a remarkably stupid thick-headedness. The American follow the principle that when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous.

    [...] and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods. It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously.

    Source (yes, I replaced "English" by "American")

    See also noble lie.

    --
    I have discovered a truly marvelous proof of killer sig, which this margin is too narrow to contain.
  78. Don't security researchers do this all the time? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So, the NSA has justified the existence of their computer security teams, but haven't shown they need any more capabilities than those available to a well funded private law-abiding security research business with no special government privileges or powers.

    This doesn't justify anything about the NSA at large. You could spin the computer security teams off into a separate gov't funded entity without surveillance powers. If you slapped on a directive to be an active, publicly-sharing participant in the computer security community everyone would be better off for it (except the warhawks getting off to cyberwar fear mongering).

  79. Are we entirely sure ... by Rambo+Tribble · · Score: 2

    ... this wasn't a Microsoft plot to advance UEFI Secure Boot, while implicating Chine?

    1. Re:Are we entirely sure ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Secure Boot wouldn't have helped... Secure Boot only protects against bootloader attacks.. It wouldn't stop a rouge firmware flash.

  80. And how would the virus spread? by Marrow · · Score: 2

    Maybe it could use one of the backdoors or zero-day exploits that NSA keeps under its belt. They don't tell computer manufacturers about those threats because they want to use them themselves. Yeah, you guys are real heroes.

  81. Saving face by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Am I wrong to assume that this is just a ploy by the NSA to try to save some face? To justify the fact that their still violating our privacy and spying on us? To somehow prove that we need to keep sacrificing our freedoms for a sense/illusion of security that only they can provide?!

  82. Act of War by wjcofkc · · Score: 2
    Oh my. Consider the scale and scope of the attack the NSA is reporting. If China had done this and pulled it off, they would have know in advance that not only would we figure out it was them, they would also know it would be act an of war that we would respond to with military might. In other words: they are not that stupid.

    BIOS attack? Beyond not likely on a scale where you would have to target such a multitude of vendors running at different patch levels. This was aimed at the technically less inclined (most people).

    As a lot of people have already pointed out, our economies are intimately intertwined. Such an attack on us would equal the same level of damage on them. Further, if this would have thrown the entire world into economic chaos, it would have been a double whammy against China. Triple since we would attack. Again: the Chinese are not so short sighted or stupid.

    Fact: The NSA lied to the government about what they are up to. Lying to the American people is a cake walk compared to that.

    'While the NSA would not name the country behind it, cyber security experts briefed on the operation told us it was China.'

    Two things here:

    1. My sig becomes more relevant with every passing day.

    2. Yes the NSA effectively did say it was China - through "cyber security experts" instructed to say so and that are likely NSA contractors if they could have known that in the first place. The NSA accusing China of nearly pulling of an attack of military escalation proportions is so extraordinary reckless it scares me that they would do it at all.

    This is so fucked up. If you don't have a passport get one now and plan where you're going to escape to while there is still time.

    --
    Brought to you by Carl's Junior.
    1. Re:Act of War by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly my first thought. Why was this not considered an act of war? If its a country trying to cripple another country so badly intentionally, why hasn't any military action taken place?

      I think the NSA knows they are dying and are getting desperate.

  83. Penalty for state sponsored attack? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How about we declare the fine for such action is a cancellatin and voiding of all US debt owned by China. Hmmm, I like it!

  84. NSA Clearly Violated Contitution by BrendaEM · · Score: 1

    The NSA clearly searched without probable cause. This is what happens when create an organization without checks and balances. If we have any justice in this country arrests will be made.

    "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

    --
    https://www.youtube.com/c/BrendaEM
  85. LAME by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

    Since we can never trust anything the NSA says, they might as well be making this up. And since they might as well be making this up, why not be more creative?

    Might as well copy the plot of Die Hard 4, that's what I had in mind when I read the article title. And wouldn't this attack require specific code for each model of computer mainboard in existence? I don't think it would get far before instructions for enabling BIOS write protection were being spread through the media anyway.

    --
    "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
  86. Stopped reading at "Business Insider Reports..." by JoeyRox · · Score: 1

    They're the TMZ of the business reporting world. And the company's CEO is Henry Blodget, the disgraced analyst who was banned for life from the securities industry for dumping stocks to the public while privately ridiculing the companies. The fact the publication is named "Business Insider", a thinly-veiled homage to the insider ways that got him banned from the securities industry is just a big middle finger to his readers.

  87. The US has this capability, of course by Error27 · · Score: 1

    http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2290640/germany-warns-against-using-windows-8-due-to-security-risks

    You just revoke the keys and suddenly the machine can't boot.

    It's funny how the NSA accuses China of inserting back doors but Snowden shows how the NSA inserts back doors. China hacks into systems but Snowden shows the NSA has hacked into tens of thousands of networks. And now the NSA is bragging about preventing a shutdown button when we already know it did the exact same thing.

  88. Way to "save" the economy by cortcomp · · Score: 2

    1) China supposedly destroys most pc's (and servers), we have our pants down. Insurance companies probably say not paying over terrorism clause but government stops that with "executive order" 2) i go on a hiring spree and sell more PC's than i can make, as does everyone else 3) service sector goes nuts installing and re-updating infrastructure 4) even homeless drunks with no skills can unwrap keyboards and set out system units for more skilled people 5) people get short-lived (1-2 years) but paying jobs and training 6) I make tons of money and blow it on strippers, houses, cars, and whatever i can think of, putting it back into the economy 7 most every small and medium business makes out on this deal. Sure, some insurance companies go bankrupt, but it would trigger some much needed liquidity oversight in that industry. THANK GOD YOU STOPPED ALL THAT!

  89. They saved us from Y2K! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I knew it, the NSA is the reason that our compooters didn't crash.

  90. Saving Face by D+A+N+T+E+S+++I+N+F · · Score: 1

    Am I wrong to assume that this is just a ploy by the NSA to try to save some face? To justify the fact that their still violating our privacy and spying on us? To somehow prove that we need to keep sacrificing our freedoms for a sense/illusion of security that only they can provide?!

    --
    "Chancho, when you are a man, sometimes you wear stretchy pants in your room... Just for fun." Nacho Libre
  91. This story refers to NIST SP 800-147 by Old+time+hacker · · Score: 1

    The NSA has been involved with NIST and industry to produce a series of NIST Special Publications ( http://csrc.nist.gov/publications/PubsSPs.html ) which include BIOS security. This includes 800-147, 800-147B, 800-155, 800-164 etc.

    I have no idea how many manufacturers implement these -- but there are some really gnarly issues there. It isn't even clear what BIOS means in the context of a blade server with multiple processors, management engines etc.

    The TL;DR for these specs is that a BIOS update should not be accepted by the system if it is not signed by the BIOS manufacturer. This is a step in the right direction. Of course, it doesn't protect you from someone with access to the BIOS signing keys for a particular BIOS vendor (and there aren't many BIOS vendors around). I don't think that if 800-147 is implemented that it makes anything easier for the NSA, except that it might engender a false sense of security.

  92. Trying to get out ahead of their appeal by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1
    Looks like the NSA is trying to get out ahead of their appeal:

    But in his a 68-page, heavily footnoted opinion, Leon concluded that the government didn't cite a single instance in which the program 'actually stopped an imminent terrorist attack.

    --
    Time to offend someone
  93. Pics.. by MrJanos · · Score: 1

    .. or it never happened. ;)

  94. Re:Yeah, right, NSA, we believe you soooo much (no by fldsofglry · · Score: 1

    Pigsknuckle, Arkansas....lol. I didn't realize they had TVs there.

  95. Why would China want to... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    destroy the US economy given that the US is its biggest trade partner and given that it is the single largest investor in US bonds. Hitting the US economy would be like hitting themselves. Just plain stupid.

  96. see this for analysis of these claims by WOOFYGOOFY · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I don't always agree with Techdirt, I think they exaggerate, omit and sometimes distort for effect. That being said, they do good stuff also. They have a pretty good take down of the whole 60 Minutes puff piece, including the interviewer (hint- when you've never seen that interviewer before, you might be interested to know more about him) and also claims about the whole BIOS attack thing.

    http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20131216/12580425582/cbs-airs-nsa-propaganda-informercial-masquerading-as-hard-hitting-60-minutes-journalism-reporter-with-massive-conflict-interest.shtml

    I am sure there's more out there that's even more damning. This is the problem with the people running this organization. They've somehow enabled themselves to lie lie lie and think they're doing everyone a favor so it's OK.

    That's just not how a democracy is run. If you've given up on democracy, like say Peter Thiel apparently has

    http://techcrunch.com/2013/11/22/geeks-for-monarchy/

    then that's cool. But you don't need to be running the organs of that democracy in that case. Have a nice retirement. It's on us.

    1. Re:see this for analysis of these claims by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Geeks for monarchy is a dumb idea. It's dumb. I mean, I know it's frustrating that politicians don't just do what's obviously good for everyone, but it's not that simple. History proves that a representative government with strong individual rights is the least worst alternative. Anyone with an engineering degree should be able to understand why this idea is not to be tossed. (In terms of using things that work).

    2. Re:see this for analysis of these claims by WOOFYGOOFY · · Score: 1

      Right. Exactly. People who go for this kind of thing are people who get transfixed on a certain narrative about how it will all go down. They're good at imagining a better world and bad,very bad, at imagining all the possible alternative branching for events that can take place, which is what actually happens.

      You can't blame them, history is basically unpredictable because the number of interacting variables, and even what those variables are, is both unknown and astronomically large It's fundamentally inconceivable and very likely chaotic in the mathematical sense.

      Life is what happens while you were making other plans, as they say. Neofascist daydreams - and this is what this is- about how much better the world would be if we got rid of democracy are nothing more than looking to simply NUKE the fundamental problem of "other minds".

      Sure I know what we ought to do about global warming (and I am the least of such knowers) but I can't convince those other minds whom I perceive as self delusional , venal , suicidially- strike that -genocidially partisan and borderline insane.

      These feelings I have go to the heart of the matter without solving it. We don't have a C02 problem so much as we have a human nature problem, a flaw in human psychology which evolved to serve needs other than truth telling and strict adherence to and respect for facts.

      There is no political system which will make this problem go away or even be less ruinous. By concentrating power into the hands of fewer people, it becomes MORE ruinous. Those few minds become MORE distorted because they have MORE to lose and MORE to protect against MORE enemies and this triggers off a full dose of all the reality denial and distorted thinking the fascist , anti-democratic system was meant to be a solution to.

      If you look at polls on big issues which are not new, specifically I am leaving out the recent spying scandal because it's too new for people to have worked through the implications yet, most people , the majority opinion, is the right one. On global warming. On slavery, in its day. On the banks. On regulation. On the energy companies. On the corrupting influence of money in politics. On the revolving political-corporate door . On a host of issues, while there is substantial minority opinion, the majority understand the world as it is.

      We don't have a surplus of democracy problem. We have an efficiency of democracy problem.
       

  97. Dual BIOS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My PC has two BIOSes. If I brick it, I load a fresh BIOS from the backup. Surely any mission critical PC has at least that capability. Mine isn't even anything special - I got it from a regular online retailer and such models have been around a long time.

  98. We do need strong, well-thought protocols by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    With all the information that is flowing around, it would be a shame if our open-ness was used against us.... As if the folks that would rather see us fail/suffer/die wouldn't take advantage of any exposure??...Used to be that you would have to travel to a destination to fiddle with it. Now, there are tendrils every second that could be benign... but some are not. We need strong protocols that are not deployed without proper testing and analysis... between cell phones, smart browsers, and vendors back doors, we are not as secure as we used to be...

  99. Re:Stopped reading at "Business Insider Reports... by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

    They're the TMZ of the business reporting world.

    Except TMZ actually makes me laugh non-ironically from time to time.

    --
    An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
  100. I call BS by PortHaven · · Score: 1

    NSA claims to have foiled a cataclysmic cyber threat (likely from China) to exploit a BIOS attack.

    First off, there are a number of bios manufacturers, not all will have the same bug. Second, there are numerous bugs still existent. And even when known it is extremely hard to get manufacturers to fix them.

    This sounds like the NSA found someone in China using an exploit in a BIOS to hack computers. Alerted the manufacturer who was probably already aware of the fact after numerous Linux users had reported it years ago.

    http://www.businessinsider.com/nsa-says-foiled-china-cyber-plot-2013-12

  101. Snowden claims... by Charliemopps · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Edward Snowden claims to have uncovered a plot to subvert our constitutional rights by a super secret organization. Both claims are far fetched... which do we have more proof of?

  102. and then Ed Snowdon told us... by mcfedr · · Score: 1

    .. all about their dastardly plan

    1. Re:and then Ed Snowdon told us... by mgcarley · · Score: 1

      And they would have got away with it too, if it weren't for that meddling kid.

      --
      Founder & COO, Hayai India (hayai.in) / USA (hayaibroadband.com) // t: @mgcarley
  103. No, it was the NSA's too by PortHaven · · Score: 1

    I mean, Russia contacted us twice. That was an international conversation. And thus was monitored by the NSA. Sure the FBI, and CIA (both of whom Russian contacted) dropped the ball. But so did the NSA.

    That case alone proved that this is not about terrorism but populace control. If you can't bother monitor those individuals whom another country has deemed a significant threat. Why waste your time monitoring the rest of your populace.

    1. Re:No, it was the NSA's too by CarbonShell · · Score: 1

      Perhaps 'populace control' goes a little far, but the real issue is different and has more facets.
      On one side, yes, the government wants more control, but what they are doing now is unrealistic. Kinda like trying to find the needle in all the hay stacks.
      But the people expect them to 'protect' them, so they have to do something. And look, they can spend all this money. And they give it to contractors, who have that consultant job for the general lined up after his retirement. That contractor also helps the general define all kind of threats that will help get more financing.

      The NSA is a bloated mess. Without real oversight ('don't limit our budget or our power or else you will be helping the pedofiles/terrorists/communists') they inmates are running the asylum.

      While I agree that the governments are scared of us, I believe the whole 1984 thing is overrated. Back then people thought they needed force and coercion and secret police to control people. The sad fact is, they do not. What real threat would we be to the government? We have guns? Well they have subs and aircraft carriers and tanks and Specter gunships. We might rebel? haha, when was the last time that was ever a threat. Of all the crap that has gone down in the last few decades, when have you seen the last real 'uprising' that could even come close to something that might threaten the government? Nope, we are sheep and we are content to thinking that having the 'freedom' to vote for the two candidates selected for us somehow makes us free. We are more like fish in a tank. We swim around happily, build little nests and have young. We might even get eaten, but hey that is life and if need be, they remove the bad fish that did it. Life goes on. Swim on little fishy.
      No, the governments know that they do not have to control us, they just have to give us the illusions that we need. And as long as we are filling the coffers of those that are really in charge, nothing will change.

    2. Re:No, it was the NSA's too by kaatochacha · · Score: 1

      As in Syria, armed revolt isn't a problem until it is,at which point nobody can easily put that genie back in the bottle. This is often called a tipping point.
      This is a GOOD thing. We wouldn't want constant revolt.

    3. Re:No, it was the NSA's too by CarbonShell · · Score: 1

      Well Syria is different as the power-delta is a lot lower and, compared to many of the western countries, they have not bought into the government's crap.
      In the west we seem to have swallowed the governments rhetoric so perfectly that our government can use it as a leverage.
      If the government cannot get us to love them, they get us to love the troops, who work for the government. They sell us the whole 9 yards and we fall for it, hook, line and sinker.
      And you can be damn sure that they play that card at EVERY friggn chance.

      In addition, the rebels are heavily supported from the outside, who support (or not) it for their own reasons.
      Plus, they are ONE example and in total the examples are far and few between.

      If you take Egypt f.i., the western support for the initial rebellion was low. Mainly because the west wanted Mubarak. After the rebellion, the Muslim Brotherhood (coincidentally the wests favorite) won. The people were not happy and again rebelled, much to the west's dislike.
      Had the rebellion not worked, the west would have been fine with the results.

  104. FUD by setrops · · Score: 1

    Our program is under scrutiny as being unconstitutional, so lets spread FUD.

    60 Minutes is really going in the tank.

    Way to go guys

  105. Wait...it all makes sense now... by PortHaven · · Score: 2

    Computers, manufactured in China. Had a defect that led large number of machines to crash and brick. These were sold to the NSA. Who pointed the flaw out to the manufacturer. And received an update, and a scathing email addressing the NSA sysadmin for having updated all the machines with the wrong BIOS firmware.

  106. But they couldn't foil... by rebelwarlock · · Score: 1

    ...The plot to fuck up basic CSS on the article. Seriously, half the header is off the fucking page. I've seen better CSS on Geocities pages.

  107. Did This Really Happen? by daveoj · · Score: 1

    ... or is someone reading too much Mark Russinovich?

  108. Bull by Reliable+Windmill · · Score: 1

    shit.

    --
    Signature intentionally left blank.
  109. Where is the update? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There is none.

    They have made it up so that NSA will not be abolished after recent scandals.

  110. The NSA counter-move was brilliant by Kamamura · · Score: 1

    They made everyone switch to UEFI and now the world is safe, right?

  111. All consumer PCs should be "un-brickable" by davidwr · · Score: 1

    All consumer PCs and similar equipment should have a "safe BIOS boot mode" which does nothing but allow re-loading of the BIOS from a specific source (e.g. USB port #1, CDROM, etc.).

    It would be fine to required that the user hold down a switch or install a jumper or some such to enable this mode, but it must be there for mass-produced consumer devices.

    For companies and individuals who don't want this feature, a hardware fuse (NOT "blowable" in software) or something similar could be blown rendering the "safe BOOT mode" useless. Vendors who cater to corporate customers could pre-blow this fuse.

    To prevent "compliance in name only" (sorry, sir, we are out of stock of model XYZ except for some from an order that was canceled, but oh by the way the fuses were blown), vendors and retailers would be prohibited from offering machines "pre-blown" unless they also offered the "non-crippled" version at the same or better terms or they sold them as "used" goods.

    --
    Note: This suggestion is not meant to address the the "locked down bootloader" problem (which IMHO is a real problem). Unless that issue is also addressed, vendors would still be able to set the "safe BIOS boot mode" so that only signed BIOSes would load. But at least a computer that got bricked by either a corrupt BIOS or a bogus one signed by a compromised signing key would be over-writable by one obtained from a known-good source.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  112. Not to mention... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That all those BIOS chips are made and programmed in China in the first place. So why would they need to launch a virus.
    The lack of logic is astounding 60 Minutes, I'd say a lot less than 60 minutes went into that story.

  113. stopping an attempt should not be the goal by dAzED1 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    a better response than my previous...

    If such a virus was found that affected a large portion of the computers out there. If that is so, stopping a single virus deployment attempt is worthless; the virus still exists, and more importantly the vulnerability still exists. If they are being truthful in any way, then they have done absolutely nothing useful. As you say, where's the CVE? Where's the details? Without details this is useless.

    With a terrorist attack or something, "trust us, it happened!" can sortof work...I guess. For this though - it's useless without details. More, without details - we're forced to believe that the NSA is just making crap up. Did they think about getting a person with any sort of compsci background to help the marketing/PR at NSA person come up with a valid "threat" that was being stopped? In theory there should be one or two there....

    1. Re:stopping an attempt should not be the goal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They don't NEED one.

      Not when the interviewer is a paid shill.

      Face it. The American public has bought it. Hook, line, and sinker.

      NO major media outlet has called the claims into question; and I will never donate a cent to NPR ever again.

      At some point we have to face the reality that America is OVER.

  114. And so it ever was by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And so it ever was

  115. NASA = US Military by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Are you so f**king thick, you do not know NASA is the space arm of the US armed services? In "I Dream of Genie", the popular sitcom of the late 1960s, viewers were confused as to why the two lead astronauts wore the uniform of DIFFERENT branches of the US military. Of course, as (fictional) NASA employees, they were making the point that NASA efforts were designed to serve the war machine of the navy, army AND air-force.

    NASA's so called civilian FRONT is a standard propaganda operation designed to make the thickest of sheeple (ie., people like you, phrostie) give unthinking support to NASA's pioneering work placing military technology in space. Yes, you morons, space 'exploration' is simply the 'sugar' that allows the insanely more expensive military space 'medicine' happily trickle down the 'throats' of the US sheeple. For every dollar the US spends 'going to Mars' and the like, it spends 1000 dollars+ expanding the military use of space.

    The current highest priority at NASA is perfecting Obama's space based weapons program designed to hit any target on Earth with massive non-nuclear strikes within one hour. So far, more money has been spent on this genocidal ambition than the entire combined 'civilian' budget of NASA across the last SIX+ decades.

     

    1. Re:NASA = US Military by SeNtM · · Score: 1

      Wow, I think AC is on the rag today.

      BTW- The transitor, microchip, and microproccessor are the results of the funding of US space and military programs. While private companies may have developed them, guess who was paying the contracts. Yes, that computer you adore was developed through a process you scorn.

      Further, the US has plenty of ICBMs, fully capable of striking anywhere in the world within 30 minutes, guaranteed delivery, or the next one is free...We don't actually need suborbital launch platforms.

      --
      "There ought to be limits to freedom." -George W. Bush
  116. Compared to badbios this is a piece of cake by Browzer · · Score: 1

    http://it.slashdot.org/story/13/11/01/0120220/airgap-jumping-malware-may-use-ultrasonic-networking-to-communicate

    Airgap-Jumping Malware May Use Ultrasonic Networking To Communicate

    "Dan Goodwin writes at Ars Technica about a rootkit that seems straight out of a science-fiction thriller. According to security consultant Dragos Ruiu one day his MacBook Air, on which he had just installed a fresh copy of OS X, spontaneously updated the firmware that helps it boot. Stranger still, when Ruiu then tried to boot the machine off a CD ROM, it refused and he also found that the machine could delete data and undo configuration changes with no prompting. Next a computer running the Open BSD operating system also began to modify its settings and delete its data without explanation or prompting and further investigation showed that multiple variants of Windows and Linux were also affected. But the story gets stranger still. Ruiu began observing encrypted data packets being sent to and from an infected laptop that had no obvious network connection with—but was in close proximity to—another badBIOS-infected computer. The packets were transmitted even when the laptop had its Wi-Fi and Bluetooth cards removed. Ruiu also disconnected the machine's power cord so it ran only on battery to rule out the possibility it was receiving signals over the electrical connection. Even then, forensic tools showed the packets continued to flow over the airgapped machine. Then, when Ruiu removed internal speaker and microphone connected to the airgapped machine, the packets suddenly stopped. With the speakers and mic intact, Ruiu said, the isolated computer seemed to be using the high-frequency connection to maintain the integrity of the badBIOS infection as he worked to dismantle software components the malware relied on. It's too early to say with confidence that what Ruiu has been observing is a USB-transmitted rootkit that can burrow into a computer's lowest levels and use it as a jumping off point to infect a variety of operating systems with malware that can't be detected. It's even harder to know for sure that infected systems are using high-frequency sounds to communicate with isolated machines. But after almost two weeks of online discussion, no one has been able to rule out these troubling scenarios, either. 'It looks like the state of the art in intrusion stuff is a lot more advanced than we assumed it was,' says Ruiu. 'The take-away from this is a lot of our forensic procedures are weak when faced with challenges like this. A lot of companies have to take a lot more care when they use forensic data if they're faced with sophisticated attackers.'"

  117. Bricked Google servers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    On the other hand...

  118. Truth is no one KNEW one way or the other ... by drnb · · Score: 0

    And Iraq had WMDs.

    The truth is that no one KNEW on way or the other whether Saddam had WMD or not. He had them at one point, he used them on his own people, he agreed to get rid of them in the first Gulf War cease fire and then he kept the world GUESSING. He hampered the UN inspectors. He worked to maintain the IMPRESSION that he still had WMD.

    Yes. Saddam worked to maintain the IMPRESSION that he still had WMD. His WMD may have been lost in the desert (hastily buried as US/UN forces approached during the war and the precise location lost), degraded over time without maintenance, or in fact been destroyed. He fostered rumors about programs and capabilities that did not exist.

    How do we know this? Saddam told us after his capture. He explained it to his FBI interrogator. A documentary was made about this interrogation. It was the "good" type of interrogation, again note FBI not CIA. Using psychology, not "enhanced techniques", to slowly gain the confidence of the prisoner and convince him to cooperate.

    The truth is both sides were guessing, both the "he has WMD" and the "he does not have WMD" camps. No one outside of high ranking Iraqi authorities knew the truth. The UN inspectors failed to make a determination. Only US troops on the ground eventually made the determination on Iraqi WMD.

    Don't confuse the SELLING of the war to the public with the actual facts of the war. The fact that the US government lied about evidence does not tell us anything about what Saddam actually had or did not have.

  119. In biology ... by freax · · Score: 1

    Among the reasons why a biological virus or bacteria is or can be successful, is that it can remain undetected for long so that it has a lot of opportunity to infect other hosts with itself. Viruses or bacteria that kill the patient quickly are rarely successful. A computer virus designed to quickly destroy the US economy would similarly have to act fast (execute, destroy BIOS, reboot, etc), but this aspect of it also goes against the virus' ability to spread and infect many other systems with itself. I conclude that this is a PR stunt by the NSA. Are rather silly one.

  120. badBIOS ? by savuporo · · Score: 1

    Are they referring to the badBIOS myth or what exactly ? Or just riding on the FUD wave of "OMG there are BIOS virii!" Maybe their PR department failed to read the thorough debunkings of it ?

    --
    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.slashdot.org Errors found while checking this document as HTML5!
  121. Saddam pretended to have WMD to trick Iran by drnb · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Lies! Iraq had WMDs! Didn't you see the 3D renderings of the mobile port-potties that Saddam had?!?

    How does the fact that the US government lied tell us whether Saddam had or did not have WMD? It doesn't. It merely shows that the US gov't did not know but wanted to sell the war to the public. The truth is Saddam worked to maintain the IMPRESSION that he had WMD, he was scared of Iran and thought the fear of WMD could keep them at bay. He was afraid to admit he no longer had any. He explained it all to his FBI interrogator. It was a proper humane interrogation where the interrogator builds confidence and trust and uses psychology to persuade. A documentary was made. Its often cited as an example that "enhanced" interrogations are not needed.

    1. Re:Saddam pretended to have WMD to trick Iran by tendrousbeastie · · Score: 1

      It's not a subject I know much about. Can you point me in the direction off the documentary? Thanks in advance.

    2. Re:Saddam pretended to have WMD to trick Iran by Desler · · Score: 1

      How does the fact that the US government lied tell us whether Saddam had or did not have WMD?

      Simple: various intelligence agencies warned that Chalabi was lying and the Bush Administration propagated the lie. That's how we know that the lies meant Saddam didn't have WMDs. Or did you not hear the memo that he fabricated his supposed evidence?

    3. Re:Saddam pretended to have WMD to trick Iran by drnb · · Score: 1

      It's not a subject I know much about. Can you point me in the direction off the documentary? Thanks in advance.

      Saw it on TV, did some googling ...

      "After several months, Saddam started to talk. There were no longer weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, he said, although the capability to build them remained. But Saddam said he kept up the ruse that those weapons still existed to preserve his power and protect Iraq against Iran, which Saddam viewed as his country’s biggest threat. Not even senior leaders within his government knew that there weren’t any weapons, Piro said."
      http://www.phillyburbs.com/news/local/the_intelligencer_news/fbi-agent-saddam-interrogation-was-unique-historic-opportunity/article_6306f1c9-b9c0-5fc7-b4ff-398cf04ad103.html

    4. Re:Saddam pretended to have WMD to trick Iran by drnb · · Score: 3, Insightful

      How does the fact that the US government lied tell us whether Saddam had or did not have WMD?

      Simple: various intelligence agencies warned that Chalabi was lying and the Bush Administration propagated the lie. That's how we know that the lies meant Saddam didn't have WMDs. Or did you not hear the memo that he fabricated his supposed evidence?

      You need to seriously reexamine your logic. The fact that the US lied or was lied to does *not* indicate that Saddam was WMD free. There were people lying and guessing on both the pro and anti WMD sides, none of this lying or guesswork is evidence of anything. Only boots on the ground by outsiders could prove things one way or the other. Ideally that would have been UN weapons inspectors receiving full cooperation from the Iraqi government. Regrettably Saddam didn't like that plan.

      "After several months, Saddam started to talk. There were no longer weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, he said, although the capability to build them remained. But Saddam said he kept up the ruse that those weapons still existed to preserve his power and protect Iraq against Iran, which Saddam viewed as his country’s biggest threat. Not even senior leaders within his government knew that there weren’t any weapons, Piro said."
      http://www.phillyburbs.com/news/local/the_intelligencer_news/fbi-agent-saddam-interrogation-was-unique-historic-opportunity/article_6306f1c9-b9c0-5fc7-b4ff-398cf04ad103.html

    5. Re:Saddam pretended to have WMD to trick Iran by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right so he displayed to the world he had ability, opportunity and intent. Usually that means you can legitimately protect yourself by whatever means possible.

      BTW, a WMD can be as simple as something that the Boston Bombers used. All this WMD talk is now mute IMO. http://hereandnow.wbur.org/2013/04/25/weapon-mass-destruction

    6. Re:Saddam pretended to have WMD to trick Iran by Desler · · Score: 2

      You keep arguing with me but you also point out that everyone claiming Iraq had WMDs was lying. So, if everyone making the claim of something's existence is lying the intelligent person comes to only one conclusion which is that they didn't exist. Only someone using tortured logic or had some agenda could come to any other conclusion.

    7. Re:Saddam pretended to have WMD to trick Iran by drnb · · Score: 2

      You keep arguing with me but you also point out that everyone claiming Iraq had WMDs was lying. So, if everyone making the claim of something's existence is lying the intelligent person comes to only one conclusion which is that they didn't exist. Only someone using tortured logic or had some agenda could come to any other conclusion.

      Your logic is terribly flawed. Condition X may have three states: true, false or unknown. If a person lies about X being true you still do not know whether the actual state is false or unknown.

      If you re-read my posts you will find that I said that both sides lied, those claiming true lied, those claiming false lied, the true factual state was unknown.

      The US gov't lied about WMD. If WMD had been found, it the US gov't was accidentally correct, would that have made their original statements any less of a lie? Well that is why happened with the "no WMD" side, they were accidentally correct.

      Now add to this the fact that many against the war were at the time saying there is "no evidence of WMD" (the unknown state), not that there was "no WMD" (the false state). To claim there was a large body of people claiming the false state prior to invasion is a lie. In truth there was a large body claiming the unknown state and saying the inspectors should have more time.

    8. Re: Saddam pretended to have WMD to trick Iran by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Moot not mute.

    9. Re:Saddam pretended to have WMD to trick Iran by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your logic is terribly flawed. Condition X may have three states: true, false or unknown. If a person lies about X being true you still do not know whether the actual state is false or unknown.

      ...or, to be precise, you know that it is unknown, in the absense of any other information!

    10. Re:Saddam pretended to have WMD to trick Iran by lsatenstein · · Score: 1

      How does the fact that the US government lied tell us whether Saddam had or did not have WMD?

      Simple: various intelligence agencies warned that Chalabi was lying and the Bush Administration propagated the lie. That's how we know that the lies meant Saddam didn't have WMDs. Or did you not hear the memo that he fabricated his supposed evidence?

      Now the next lie. To keep the armaments industry going, the USA is going to purchase F35 planes, state of the art dinosaurs. Yes, the plans will have the greatest and most sophisticated electronics, but a single unmanned drone plane at 1/1000th the cost could do the same job, with much less collateral damage.

      You need to seriously reexamine your logic. The fact that the US lied or was lied to does *not* indicate that Saddam was WMD free. There were people lying and guessing on both the pro and anti WMD sides, none of this lying or guesswork is evidence of anything. Only boots on the ground by outsiders could prove things one way or the other. Ideally that would have been UN weapons inspectors receiving full cooperation from the Iraqi government. Regrettably Saddam didn't like that plan.

      "After several months, Saddam started to talk. There were no longer weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, he said, although the capability to build them remained. But Saddam said he kept up the ruse that those weapons still existed to preserve his power and protect Iraq against Iran, which Saddam viewed as his country’s biggest threat. Not even senior leaders within his government knew that there weren’t any weapons, Piro said."

      http://www.phillyburbs.com/news/local/the_intelligencer_news/fbi-agent-saddam-interrogation-was-unique-historic-opportunity/article_6306f1c9-b9c0-5fc7-b4ff-398cf04ad103.html

      --
      Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
  122. Another thought by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I blame Asrock.... /plot to sell more motherboards....

  123. Only boots on the ground answer the WMD question by drnb · · Score: 1

    Our governments certainly lied but they did not know what Saddam had. Not until there were US/UK boots on the ground did we really know one way or the other.

    Saddam in fact worked hard to maintain the IMPRESSION that he still had WMD. He feared Iran would attack if they knew how truly weak he was. So he fed the rumors that he had WMD stashed away, that he had secret programs under way and hampered UN inspector to give credibility to the rumors.

    Saddam eventually admitted these things. He explained it all to his FBI interrogator who built confidence and trust with Saddam and used old fashioned psychology to persuade him to cooperate. There is a great documentary on Saddam's interrogation.

  124. PR move by hurwak-feg · · Score: 1

    This sounds like a PR move in response to the Snowden leaks. I will give them the benefit of the doubt in this case that they did actually do something worth while. One thing to consider is that if they hadn't have figured it out, someone else might have. If they think an anecdote of them doing something good as a distraction from the domestic surveillance is a bit of an insult though. For all we know, this malware attack could be the exception, and not the norm. Even if its the norm and not the exception, it still doesn't excuse the bad things they have done. IMHO, someone like Snowden leaking this information was inevitable. I think it was a bit naive to expect NDAs to contain something so questionable that I am assuming a good number of people at the NSA knew about. I think the best PR move the NSA could do right now is to suspend some of these programs for now. In the future, if they can find a way to run these programs in a way that respects constitutional protections, then they can continue. For example, if they can track users anonymously and compartmentalize who has access to what pieces of information about a mark. Considering they are trying to get rid of sysads, this makes it harder to compartmentalize because inevitably the few remaining admins have a lot more systems they control.

  125. Me too! by readin · · Score: 2

    NSA Says It Foiled Plot To Destroy US Economy Through Malware

    What a coincidence. So did I!

    --
    I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
  126. Why are the feds still buying chinese-made goods? by WindBourne · · Score: 2

    Seriously, they should be working hard to bring back manufacturing to America. Obama is, but the DOD should insist on all of their communications, including phones and networks, being made in the west. Just as China blocks goods from the west based on defense needs, we should be doing the same. This should include our telcos, utilities, etc. Ideally, we should push other western nations to do the same.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  127. Geeks can investigate this themselves ... by drnb · · Score: 1

    Once those pesky real journalists that insist on facts and sources start digging into this ...

    Been watching movies again? Dedicated and knowledgable journalists who are paid to dig into things in great detail, yeah right.

    Why not just go to the source? Have a large number of geeks look at BIOS software from system that originated in China during the time period in question. Don't they have these old systems in their closets running Linux?

  128. Maybe.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    they should foil all the dam spam going to my inbox, a majority of which links to malware in the first place.

  129. Re:NSA Says It Foiled Plot To Destroy US Economy T by MobSwatter · · Score: 1

    I had no idea... The Chinese wrote UEFI?

  130. Did anyone even consider... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Did anyone consider that the whole thing with Snowden might just be a way for the NSA to focus its search database on the people that might protest the most against a constitutional coup

    1. Re:Did anyone even consider... by MobSwatter · · Score: 1

      Trouble is, the constitution is the supreme law of the land, when you violate it, it makes you unlawful and a criminal. Now with the whitehouse in support to expand these powers of the NSA whilst criminalizing Snowden is pretty much the pot calling the kettle black.

    2. Re:Did anyone even consider... by freax · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure a lot of people consider this, me included. And this is why a lot of people are self-censoring themselves. That still some of us decide that it's worth the risk to protest here and on the street shows how important the debate is. It's btw all over the news that even the media is self-censoring themselves already. All this is a huge sign that democracy and freedom of speech are a thing of the past. I hope people who work at the NSA are proud of themselves (because a lot of them are autistic, I'll make it clear that that was cynicism).

    3. Re:Did anyone even consider... by MobSwatter · · Score: 1

      I suppose they will come off with people do not have a right to live soon, exactly what the Nazi's did just before they barbequed 5 million Jews. They seem to be berry picking on the constitution though, if they are going to throw it out, they need to throw out all of it, including the levy of taxes because I for one do not want to fund this unfrigginamerican crap, the constitution is not just law, it is the governments obligation and contract to it's people. So the U.S. no longer has citizens?.

  131. Oh my they stopped the Chernobyl virus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIH_%28computer_virus%29

    CIH, also known as Chernobyl or Spacefiller, is a Microsoft Windows 9x computer virus which first emerged in 1998. It is one of the most damaging viruses, overwriting critical information on infected system drives, and more importantly, in most cases overwriting the system BIOS. The virus was created by Chen Ing-hau (, pinyin: Chén Yíngháo) who was a student at Tatung University in Taiwan.[1] 60 million computers were believed to be infected by the virus internationally, resulting in an estimated $1 billion US dollars in commercial damages.[1]

  132. Then why aren't they stopping Congress? by smitchel87 · · Score: 1

    Congress is ruining the economy faster than anyone!

  133. Re:Only boots on the ground answer the WMD questio by Alomex · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Our governments certainly lied but they did not know what Saddam had. Not until there were US/UK boots on the ground did we really know one way or the other.

    Sorry, but no. Many other foreign countries had a look at the evidence and they voted "no WMD". Only US lapdogs went along (coalition of the willing), everyone else took a pass. So people were able to tell "one way or another".

  134. Damn straight, that. by HBI · · Score: 2

    Operation McCall on CNN
    IAEA Al-Tuwaitha site report

    A little bit of critical reading of the two sources in conjunction with each other will show some discrepancies. I have a nice award from the OSD hung up in my basement that says I was at Al-Tuwaitha. My time in Iraq with dosimeter badges and looking at the abandoned fortifications atop the depicted berms (in the IAEA report) convince me that there was every appearance of a WMD program in Iraq. There may have been no nuclear weapon produced, but the theater was excellent.

    --
    HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
    1. Re:Damn straight, that. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "A little bit of critical reading of the two sources in conjunction with each other will show some discrepancies."

            The Iraq war call was a BS pony show before the war started as proven by the events that lead up to the Valerie Plame incident. She was exposed as a CIA agent to discredit her husband who investigated some of the Bush/Cheney claims and then called Bush/Cheney on their fake intelligence and outright lying in pushing for the war.

    2. Re:Damn straight, that. by HBI · · Score: 1

      Plame and her husband were an example of clear corruption. She was using her intel position to feed information to her husband for more political uses. They got caught, and paid the price that a career government employee pays when they get involved in politics - career ended.

      Suffice to say that your summary doesn't do justice to the actual story, they didn't have much that was of value and are only well known because of the politics they were involved in. They couldn't make their lawsuits stick and now she's writing spy novels. So much for Valerie Plame.

      --
      HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
  135. LOL: NSA Farts A Brick And King Kong Appears by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How pathetic!

    Alexander and Co are on LSD and Vodka for sure. And 60 Minutes tries to blame Vietnam and Agent Orange for their brain failure.

  136. Got the wrong guy, NSA by sl4shd0rk · · Score: 1

    Unless that malware involved bought and paid for politicians as well as corrupt bankers + real estate people, you got the wrong guy.

    --
    Join the Slashcott! Feb 10 thru Feb 17!
  137. How to watch the 60 Minutes NSA Segment by istartedi · · Score: 2

    Arguably this goes for anything on TV; but I found myself keeping it particularly in mind while watching the NSA segment. You have to watch it thinking, "How much of this will later be revealed as a lie?".

    I bet a lot of people took that approach. It's called "credibility" and the NSA has lost it. They can't get it back with one dog and pony show. At least... you shouldn't let them get it back that easily.

    --
    For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
  138. Gosh, now I'm glad they tracked all my calls by Jawnn · · Score: 1

    If they were able to stop my PC from being bricked, giving up my Constitutional rights was totally worth it. Right?

  139. Look at the audience by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Considering the audience that is likely still watching 60 Minutes (drivel) the vast majority have no clue what a BIOS is let alone what it would take to distribute a BIOS-based malware attack. The NSA knows this very well and just got a buy on their "heroic" twarting of an "imminent" attack on the US.

  140. NSA Missed a Spot! by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

    So, ah, the NSA is not to clear about Financial Terrorism? So what causes more damage? A bomb going off in an outdoor market? How about 1 family in 10 losing their home? In case the NSA doesn't read, it's the number of people in America during the 2006 financial implosion; or the Great Recession. Thanks NSA for all the good work you did being a part of that solution. Where was the NSA, helping, then? How about the Banking crap going on in the EU? That didn't affect Americans?

    Public evidence shows that the general running the NSA knows a lot about lying to congress, and guns in his face. But absolutely nothing about the hand in his wallet that in his pants pocket, or does he. I won't ask, and he shouldn't tell.

  141. China is at war with the U.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    China is waging cyberwar against the U.S.
    Remember that next time you consider buying anything made in China.
    Your money will be used against you and yours.

  142. Liars by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Does anyone believe what they say anymore?

  143. NSA just did what Microserf told them to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They have no brights of their own.

  144. Maybe Not by JimSadler · · Score: 1

    To develop a weapon to be used in case of war is one thing. To set it loose upon the US when no war exists would make no sense at all. China is so heavily invested in the US that anything that harms the US economy would harm China severely. It is far more likely that some mad nation run by strange ideology such as Iran would attempt such nonsense. North Korea is another jackpot of insanity. I would not be shocked that China might roll over N.Korea if China thought the US was to be harmed. However the US is far more likely to self destruct than to be taken apart by an enemy. Greed and corporate corruption are the greatest threat to US national security.

  145. Re:Only boots on the ground answer the WMD questio by drnb · · Score: 1

    Our governments certainly lied but they did not know what Saddam had. Not until there were US/UK boots on the ground did we really know one way or the other.

    Sorry, but no. Many other foreign countries had a look at the evidence and they voted "no WMD". Only US lapdogs went along (coalition of the willing), everyone else took a pass. So people were able to tell "one way or another".

    You are confusing "no evidence he has any" with "evidence he has disarmed". The two are not the same. In the first case, the case these countries support, there is still a question. The truth is that not even senior people in Iraq knew Saddam had no WMD. Here it is from Saddam himself:

    "After several months, Saddam started to talk. There were no longer weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, he said, although the capability to build them remained. But Saddam said he kept up the ruse that those weapons still existed to preserve his power and protect Iraq against Iran, which Saddam viewed as his country’s biggest threat. Not even senior leaders within his government knew that there weren’t any weapons, Piro said."
    http://www.phillyburbs.com/news/local/the_intelligencer_news/fbi-agent-saddam-interrogation-was-unique-historic-opportunity/article_6306f1c9-b9c0-5fc7-b4ff-398cf04ad103.html

  146. Giving away the crown jewels? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This comment is NOT meant to defend the NSA. Most computer manufacturers today run their production lines in Mainland China. Consequently, any IP provided by the manufacturers, including system firmware (BIOS) can be easily tampered with during the manufacturing process. Mainboard (motherboard) BIOS is just one of the potential risk areas. How about hard disk firmware that has a back door to alter system behavior (load rogue code) ? When was the last time that anyone checked what your trusty, secondary storage system is doing while you are asleep?

  147. Potato! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You'd have to be fucking retarded to believe this shit. I'm talking drooling, poop eating, fart sniffing, pig fucking, incestuous fucking epic epic epic epic epic retard.

    Too bad about half of America fits this description.

    This world is fucked - time for the next iteration. We'll get it right eventually.

  148. What a load of you-know-what by luis_a_espinal · · Score: 1

    NSA Says It Foiled Plot To Destroy US Economy Through Malware

    "Business Insider Reports: The National Security Agency described for the first time a cataclysmic cyber threat it claims to have stopped On Sunday's '60 Minutes.' Called a BIOS attack, the exploit would have ruined, or 'bricked,' computers across the country, causing untold damage to the national and even global economy. Even more shocking, CBS goes as far as to point a finger directly at China for the plot"

    A BIOS attack that would computers across the country. For anyone with a hint of tech awareness, can you smell the utter bullshit and in-feasibility of such a premise? And why would China want to do that when it is joined to the hip to the US and global economies?

    This reminds me of mediocre plot lines from moronic tech movies like "Eagle Eye" and shit like that. This is just another cry-wolf like "ZOMG WMD IN IRAQISTAN! 'MURIKA!", but this time is more like "ZOMG ZOMBIE BIOS FROM THEM JAPS... OR IS IT CHINKS??? NO MATTER, WE'LL BOMB THE FUCK OUT OF YOU INTO FREEDOM, 'MURIKA!"

    I just wonder how many illiterati will actually fall for this tripe.

  149. North Korea all over again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The logic of US economic (or wholesale) destruction is pure North Korea, who has used this kind attack before in the South Korea. Combined with their Chinese connections, the result results itself in a resolute way.

  150. chemical weapons are not WMD's by mbkennel · · Score: 1


    Chemical weapons are not weapons of mass destruction unless accompanied by an airforce or major artillery with custom-designed and manufactured (i.e. NOT 'improvised') technical capabilities. There needs to be significant infrastructure and training.

    There is exactly zero chance that Saddam could conduct an aerial bombardement of the US or major allies with chemical weapons. If you have the ability to do aerial bombardment then cluster weapons are at least as destructive as chemical weapons. Chemical weapons are military weapons of modest usefulness against soft targets, like defenseless villages and human-wave armies of zero-technology conscripts, and with many complications and problems.

    They are very, very poor terrorist weapons. A large truck bomb is much more reliable and easily deployable, and that's the reason that it's the weapon of choice of actual terrorist organizations.

    Chemical weapons and radiological weapons are NOT weapons of mass destruction.

    Professionally engineered biological (potentially) and fissile nuclear weapons are weapons of mass destruction with terrorist uses and deployability. There is no evidence Iraq had any significant capabilitiy after the Gulf War in these. To see the difference with nuclear weapons, witness Iran, which does have a fairly large scale dual-use infrastructure and weapons capability which is plainly obvious to everybody.

    1. Re:chemical weapons are not WMD's by drnb · · Score: 1

      Saddam had both air forces and artillery. They merely were restricted in their operations as part of the post Gulf War 1 cease fire, which also brought in the UN weapons inspectors. With a clean bill of health from these inspectors the UN and US would have left and Saddam would be free to rebuild his WMD capabilities.

      From Saddam's FBI interrogation:
      "After several months, Saddam started to talk. There were no longer weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, he said, although the capability to build them remained. But Saddam said he kept up the ruse that those weapons still existed to preserve his power and protect Iraq against Iran, which Saddam viewed as his country’s biggest threat. Not even senior leaders within his government knew that there weren’t any weapons, Piro said." http://www.phillyburbs.com/news/local/the_intelligencer_news/fbi-agent-saddam-interrogation-was-unique-historic-opportunity/article_6306f1c9-b9c0-5fc7-b4ff-398cf04ad103.html

      Thanks to another contributor to a related thread:
      "The U.S. military spent $70 million ensuring the safe transportation of 550 metric tons of the uranium from Iraq to Canada, said Pentagon spokesman Brian Whitman."
      http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/07/07/iraq.uranium/

  151. yea, right by SlippyToad · · Score: 1

    Just chiming in: I believe this is probably total horseshit, and more pathetic propaganda from the NSA, who have clearly gotten too big for their damn britches.

    --
    One day I feel I'm ahead of the wheel / the next it's rolling over me / I can get back on / I can get back on
  152. I saved the White House by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yeah, and I foiled a terrorist plot to blow up the White House single handedly! NOT!

    The NSA can say they stopped some mastermind from ending the world all they want, where's the evidence? Does this even pass the stink test? I didn't see the 60 Minutes report but I'm guessing there wasn't really anything of substance to prove the NSA's story. This is just a marketing campaign to try to fix the NSA's image, I'm sure we'll hear more stories about how the NSA stopped the bad guys from destroying the world in their tracks, I bet they even help old ladies across the street & save cats from trees.

  153. Got nothing, make shit up instead by jonfr · · Score: 1

    So NSA got nothing to show for it dragnet surveillance. Instead they just start making shit up in propaganda news that they spread with big U.S media companies. The reality is that such attack would never have worked and the people in China knows this already.

    China also doesn't need to do this. All they need to do to ruin U.S economic is to stop exporting cheap stuff (among other things) to the U.S. In less then 8 months U.S would be on it's knees in terms of economic performance. Since it is already junk and is not improving thanks to the idiot bible ass-holes who know nothing of economics or facts.

  154. The only response to that. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Would have to be nukes. We almost all died.

  155. By the way... by Mitchblahman · · Score: 1

    The funny part is that the very next article, which is linked on the bottom of the page, talks about how one sided and overall terrible the interview of the NSA was. On top of that, the guy who did the interview used to be an FBI spokesperson.

  156. It's Too Bad... by srobert · · Score: 1

    ... that they haven't foiled the real threats to the US economy, outsourcing, union-busting, austerity, etc.

  157. old hat by FishTankX · · Score: 1

    Actually a university student in Taiwan actually write such a virus and it did 1b in damage. it was so terrible gigabyte started making dual BIOS motherboards and offering BIOS reflash services.
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIH_(computer_virus)

  158. The real reason for secure-boot. by dirkmitt · · Score: 1

    I suppose that this also means, is that all the Linux computers, installable on PCs without secure-boot, have by now been destroyed by China.

  159. Dragon Day movie scenario by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There's a (for now fictional) independent movie about China taking over the US through a cyber-attack: http://dragondaymovie.com

  160. Liars by JDG1980 · · Score: 1

    I don't believe this. Not for a second. Aside from the fact that the NSA is under fire and would say anything to save their precious surveillance programs, why would it make any sense for China to do something like this?

    Think about it. China's interests are often at odds with ours, but they are also one of our major trading partners, and a huge chunk of their GDP comes from making goods for export. Their leaders may be ruthless, but they're not insane – quite the opposite, they seem to be very effective at advancing their geopolitical goals. But a "cyber-attack" on US civilian electronics by China would not advance their goals in any way. Instead it would be a dramatic setback.

    Imagine that China did something like this and managed to pull it off. So, millions of US computers and other devices are bricked, causing billions of dollars in economic damages and other disruptions. But what then? First of all, sensitive US military equipment won't be affected, since it is deliberately designed to be a hard target. Secondly, once it comes out who is responsible (and it will come out, one way or another), China's whole export industry is ruined – they've just demonstrated in the most vivid way possible that their trade goods cannot be trusted. They're now dealing with a pissed-off US (and probably EU as well) that is boycotting them, passing trade sanctions, and considering military action. How exactly is this in their best interests, compared to business as usual?

  161. Re: Of course they couldn't have done that. by dirkmitt · · Score: 1

    One needs to consider, whether claims that we hear and read are plausible. Just where did the NSA fix a BIOS vulnerability, on one of my computers, which was built in 2005? I never flashed the BIOS on this machine, and neither did they. But we do know that very conspicuously, Microsoft came out with Secure-Boot more recently, and "in cooperation with manufacturers". It's likely that this is what the NSA is referring to - behind some obfuscated ways of speaking...

  162. Obviously a lie... by rthille · · Score: 1

    Windows is still available and widely deployed.

    --
    Awesome furniture, accessories and cabinetry in Santa Rosa, CA: http://humanity-home.com/
  163. Re:Only boots on the ground answer the WMD questio by Maritz · · Score: 1

    None of that changes the fact that the WMDs were are hollow pretext for a war that GW Bush had decided was going to happen LONG before 9/11. The sexed-up dossiers etc were all fig leaves for an invasion that was happening no matter what anyone thought, specifically the electorate in some alleged democracies (UK/USA).

    --
    I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
  164. Between us the the abyss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My blood is the same color as yours, and what I do, I do to protect Earth, same as you. You don't like how I do it, that's your prerogative, but there are things going on out there that you know nothing about. Threats to the human race that no one ever hears about -- because we stop them. There's danger all around us. And whether you like us or not, we may be all that stands between you and the abyss.

    -- Alfred Bester (the Psy Corps one, not the author)

    I, for one, am grateful to the the NSA for foiling the plot to magically upload and sudo execute a flash updater on my computers. I always find such updates to be such a pain in the ass, that I never bother. But since NSA has foiled the magic flash ray plot, I assume they have also siezed the magic ray and made its technology available to the American public.

  165. Two words that no longer have meaning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Every good person is now a hero and every bad person is now a traitor.

  166. 'You bricked it!!' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They are treating the entire international economy as if it were a PSP

    I think we've given the NSA far more credit then they deserve - they sound like a bunch of amateurs.

  167. The NSA probably believes it. by Chalnoth · · Score: 1

    This kind of thing is exactly the sort of claim that I expect the NSA to bring up when attempting to justify its actions. And the thing is: there probably is a grain of truth to the whole thing. I bet that they could (if they were to declassify the documents) even put up some reasonable-sounding evidence to support the claim.

    But I'd be willing to bet that if they did present their evidence, there would be legions of experts in computing and security that could poke holes in their logic. I'd be willing to bet they'd find their evidence to be flimsy at best (despite sounding superficially scary), and the actual plausibility of the attack to be minimal.

    This, to my mind, is the real danger of keeping these kinds of investigations secret: even if you have well-intentioned people working on them, it's all too easy for them to mislead themselves into thinking they're fighting real threats, when nearly all of those threats never would have been dangerous in the first place. The only solution to this is to open up the investigation for a broad array of people to examine, so that the evidence can be criticized in the light of day.

    There is precisely zero value in having an organization whose job it is to protect the US when that organization's activities are kept secret.

  168. Re:Only boots on the ground answer the WMD questio by drnb · · Score: 1

    The selective evidence, exaggerations and such were certainly part of the SELLING of the war to the public.

    However the underlying decision to go to war was the fact that no one really knew if Saddam had WMD or not. Given his past use of WMD and being in a post 9/11 environment the government decided to act as if he did. They had to either determine if he did (ala UN inspectors) or assume he did not or assume he did. Inspections were failing and it was unsafe to assume he did not. Furthermore, Saddam, by his own admission, still had the capability to build more once the inspectors leave.

    Don't confuse the selling of the war with the decision to go to war.

  169. Post pulled from front page by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why is this post being buried while still being so active with all the comments? Hu? Hello? Slashdot...?
    Oh that's right. Slashdot.

  170. Re: Flashing the BIOS requires an O/S shutdown. by dirkmitt · · Score: 1

    At least, if it's to produce a malware-running BIOS version. But wait a moment. What they wrote, is that the plot from China was only supposed to produce bricked computers. I've mainly heard of computers bricked because the user actually flashed his BIOS - and made some sort of mistake. So an attempt just to brick one could be targeted and might work, with Windows running. In any case, it would be hard for (China) to do this on my dual-boot laptop built in 2005, because I mainly run it in Linux mode, and Linux is so much more resilient to such things. And, I was able to install Linux on it, precisely because it *doesn't* have secure-boot.

  171. Flashing BIOS, Vector=Windows by SpaceLifeForm · · Score: 1
    It has always been possible ever since the time that you no longer had to create a floppy to update your bios firmware.

    What one needs to consider is a BIOS backdoor, loaded via the same vector.

    See #badBIOS for example.

    So, likely, what occured is that some skunkworks group inside the NSA found the exploit hole in Windows, and they got Microsoft to patch it.

    It likely still exists in XP and will never be fixed.

    Blaming China is Standard Procedure these days for NSA.
    There always has to be a bogeyman so NSA can justify their 'programs'.

    --
    You are being MICROattacked, from various angles, in a SOFT manner.
    1. Re:Flashing BIOS, Vector=Windows by rrohbeck · · Score: 1

      There are new "arbitrary code execution" zero-days every week so this explanation doesn't cut it.

    2. Re:Flashing BIOS, Vector=Windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I really don't think you understand what the BIOS is or how it works.

    3. Re:Flashing BIOS, Vector=Windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey! That's unfair!

      That's how you pay all the efforts that we make protecting you against the Techno-Cyber-Superduper Bad Guys...

      Who do you think is protecting the planet against the bad guys from Tron and the fellows with sunglasses from Matrix, eh?

  172. NSA response by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "NSA Says It Foiled Plot To Destroy US Economy Through Malware"

    Another spokesman for the NSA added, "And we find this outrageous because that's our job!"

  173. 50% of votes? Try 5 of 9 by SpaceLifeForm · · Score: 1
    --
    You are being MICROattacked, from various angles, in a SOFT manner.
  174. Sure, NSA... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You're absolutely right that there's some governmental agency that is writing and distributing malware.

    How nice of you to "forget" to mention that it was you. Fuckin' lying scumbags. When does it ever stop?

    http://www.pcworld.com/article/2066840/nsa-reportedly-compromised-more-than-50000-networks-worldwide.html

  175. fag by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    SecureBoot is an optional part of UEFI, you ignorant little faggot.

  176. Not China by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    China wants the US economy to continue as strong as possible, because as long as the US economy is churning along, they are going to keep buying all the things China produces. There are plenty of countries, (both despotic and democratic), who have had serious interference from the US military and government over the years who would be more than happy to see the US go through a dark age.

    China is without a doubt spying, but that doesn't mean sabotaging the US economy. Besides, China doesn't have to sabotage the US economy, they are more than willing to do it to themselves.

  177. Re:Flashing BIOS, required a USB-stick in 2011. by dirkmitt · · Score: 1

    Well in addition to owning a dual-boot laptop that was manufactured in 2005, I own a Windows 7 -running PC, which urgently required a BIOS Flash. The reason was, the fact that this Windows-7 box was overclocked as shipped, which is now accomplished via a custom BIOS. Such a custom BIOS already likely has errors, other than the overclocking, causing obvious stability problems. Well in order to do this, I needed a USB Memory Stick, formatted with FAT32, even though this computer was built around 2011. The manufacturer was not able to do it with me, through a running O/S. How would a floppy disk be relevant? But, if all you want to do is brick the computer, then I'd say all you need is a successful attempt to flash the BIOS, while the O/S is running. It's done at that point. Besides which, my overclocked PC proved, that every MB requires its own, exact BIOS version. How did the NSA get all the BIOS versions straight, for presumably millions of computers?

  178. Re: Arbitrary BIOS-injecting code executions... by dirkmitt · · Score: 1

    AFAIK, result in a BIOS which no longer works. This will be different from a PC, which has been rescued by the NSA, in a way that's obvious to the user.

  179. Is this virus special? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have not seen the 60 mintues report, and details are scant in TFA.

    Some questions come to mind:
    How is this different from any other virus (that can brick a computer)?
    What did the NSA actually do?
    When was this?
    Did anyone really install a system update labelled "NSA_WIN32_PATCH.exe" ? I certainly did not and would not.

  180. LOOOOL by locopuyo · · Score: 1

    LOOOOOOOOOOOOL ROFLOLOLOLMALOLOL then sadness sets in because people actually believe this

  181. Well lucky old USA by Godwin+O'Hitler · · Score: 1

    The NSA saved America's arse, whereas in every other country in the world who aren't blessed with NSA protection, there are now tens of millions of bricked computers.

    Do people really have "stupid" written all over their foreheads?

    --
    No, your children are not the special ones. Nor are your pets.
  182. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  183. Are you taking the piss? by codeusirae · · Score: 1

    This *is* the real slashdot isn't it, the technology site?

  184. Re: Questioning the logic again... by dirkmitt · · Score: 1

    What your comment suggests, is that a targeted attack is possible against commercially-critical computers, and which exploits a vulnerability for code injection into the BIOS, with the aim of just disabling them. But you are also implying (as was the NSA), that the solution to this vulnerability was with the BIOS itself, _or_ with the Motherboard. And so it's a bit of a foregone conclusion, that the solution is to enhance BIOS-level encryption. AFAIK, Secure Boot etc., limit what types of O/S kernels can boot, based on encryption. I've never heard of Secure Boot blocking an attempted BIOS Flash, only of the Motherboard manufacturers making sure on their end, that functioning BIOS versions re-incorporate Secure Boot. Hence, if you were able to find an incompatible BIOS version that _would_ brick your machine, Secure Boot won't prevent you from inserting the USB stick and doing so. However, if the goal is to prevent arbitrary code execution, that has access to the whole hardware - which it's not supposed to in general - then the responsibility lies with the O/S. Whether the NSA got involved or not.

  185. *destroy* computers by nurb432 · · Score: 1

    Ok, that makes it not even worth reading. Morons.

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  186. See, NSA are our friends, let them have root by bug1 · · Score: 1

    This story proves the NSA is really trying to protect us all the time, some people say they are spies, i call them teh protectors of liberty.

    In order to let them help us, we should all download and install their new "anti-malware" software. If your are an important person they might even give you access to their custom assistance package where they remotely interact wit hyour system, for your protection !

  187. Re: The NSA, after all, does foil some plots. by dirkmitt · · Score: 1

    My observation for the moment would be, that if this thing was disguised as a software- or a firmware-update, it would not seem to have been targeting the most secure servers. Because unlike personal users, server admins don't usually fall for that kind of trick. And thankfully, most of the servers that actually 'run the economy', so to speak, are in the hands of people who can distinguish between a real update, and a fake one. I'm not sure whether those guys actually tend to update their BIOS often though. I'd think that if one of their Motherboards was giving them trouble, they'd just replace a whole server rack - with MBs that did perform well from day 1. /That kind/ of server-room doesn't receive many fake update-requests, of the sort that would fool non-experts, because each server isn't managed by a user as such. In that environment all the servers are managed by something like ~a Hypervisor~ , and most of them don't actually have monitors, to display confusing graphics... But then, how would this request have crippled the Economy? What's described might at best have crippled a whole bunch of PCs, which was the starting assumption of this whole article.

  188. The Very Ugly Truth Is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That keybords might be Covert Transmitters of keypresses (always great to acquire symmetric keys, logins, pass phrases), that motherboards might leak crypto keys and that CPUs might contain cockoo circuits which can do ALL SORTS OF FUN with your entire system, as soon a Coockoo Mothership Calls (not necessarily NSA, there is another dangerous party in this). The cost for "extra" circuits is almost NIL, when you have a budget of 1000 Million transistors for the CPU alone.

    How do we know we are not 100% fucked at this point ? We put way too much trust into opaque commerical hardware.

    If the British fuck with Belgacom, who knows who fucks with Intel circuits ? YEAH, LOOKING AT YOU NSA and YOUR PALS.

    1. Re:The Very Ugly Truth Is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And don't get me wrong, we also trust the Chinese and the French in hardware-making. . Both countries had their share of nasty stuff in the past. Germany is almost non-existent in this biz. SK does whatever Uncle demandsJust that the Chinese use what we call "Holzhammer" methods: Brutal and not really hidden.
      I am really worried about F117-style guys fucking with Intel or MSFT keyboard circuitry.

  189. Not difficult At All by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    After Belgacom we know that "anything goes" for NSA-GCHQ. It is almost certain they have a huge cache of Windows exploits (like on of these TIFF parsing bugs) and each of them can be used to wipe or overwrite your BIOS, if it does not have write-protect.

    The command to do this comes over an http or (more probably) Flash movie stream. And it will sure as hell be used on all dissident computers to get cipher keys and to index the harddrive.

    I think that is rational to assume if one NATO nation cyber-fucks another NATO nation's telco. Yeah Brits, you wage cyber-war against your allies, DUMB FUCKS !

  190. That's a new one by Tablizer · · Score: 1

    I've heard Bush called many names, but never "malware".

  191. LIES, TOTAL FUCKING LIES by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That is bullshit and a total fucking lie.

  192. Lies, as pointed out by CBS this is phoney by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Search it and you'll see that this so called BIOS virus never existed, that no company ever worked with the NSA to 'solve' this problem. It's a total propaganda story to make you believe in the good tooth fairy.

  193. Painting with too large a brush by Inflammatory+Fallacy · · Score: 1

    Don't underestimate the average American. By doing so, you threaten to fall victim to the fallacies you belittle in them. It's easy to elevate your beliefs above everybody else's, but that's neither right nor beneficial to anybody. I think if you'd give people more of a chance, you might notice that you're not the only one fed up with being lied to.

  194. The hell? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is this slashdot or the onion?

  195. Re: Questioning the logic again... by dnavid · · Score: 1

    What your comment suggests, is that a targeted attack is possible against commercially-critical computers, and which exploits a vulnerability for code injection into the BIOS, with the aim of just disabling them. But you are also implying (as was the NSA), that the solution to this vulnerability was with the BIOS itself, _or_ with the Motherboard.

    No, that's the opposite of what I said:

    The article also states that the NSA worked with computer manufacturers to close "the vulnerability" but it doesn't say the vulnerability was actually in the BIOS itself. And in fact you don't need a vulnerability in the BIOS to *replace* the BIOS with malware. The logical conclusion is if this attack existed at all, it was more likely to be a vulnerability in the BIOS update workflow, perhaps someone managed to penetrate the signing keys of most of the major BIOS manufacturers which would have allowed them to push out apparent BIOS updates to a wide range of computers. Or perhaps the attack involved vulnerabilities in the patch deployment servers of a significant number of motherboard manufacturers.

  196. What if it wasn't a simple bricking? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    OK, just playing devil's advocate here... But what if:

    1. Infection doesn't brick the computers, only a later payload in it
    1. The malware self-patches the BIOS to prevent removal or duplicate infection
    3. The malware was set to take instructions or be-triggered by some remote IP or site, which the NSA (or related agencies) were able to disrupt or occupy?

    Still unlikely, but amusing to contemplate.

  197. Supreme Protector NSA by TheInternetGuy · · Score: 1

    NSA, Supreme Protector of the UNITED STATES (Best STATES) composed six operas in two years,
    NSA, Supreme Protector of the UNITED STATES (Best STATES) invented THE HAMBURGER In the year 2000
    NSA, Supreme Protector of the UNITED STATES (Best STATES) was born under a METEOR and a DOUBLE RAINBOW
    NSA, Supreme Protector of the UNITED STATES (Best STATES) Shoots 38 under par,5 hole in ones on first try at Golf.

    This concludes tonight's propaganda broadcast.....
    Oh and we forgot, NSA also foiled a plot by shameless criminals to destroy the economy.

    --
    If my comment didn't sound as good in your head as it did in mine, then I guess we all know who's to blame
  198. You Already Did by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It is called "C and C++ based software". Who did invent and then "give away" C and C++. Yeah, NSA contractor Bell Labs.

    Never call the military guys stupid. 90% of time they screw over their civilian opponents. Then and now they even get the last laugh on the Banksters.

  199. Re: Please define "BIOS Update Workflow". by dirkmitt · · Score: 1

    Since a legitimate BIOS Update, which leads to a working BIOS, takes place between a USB Stick, physically connected to a computer's Motherboard, whose O/S has been shut down, where exactly did the BIOS Update Workflow need to be fixed?

  200. PR wont fix the core issues, trust is broken. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Trust when damaged, destroys security in 'free' societies.

    When people and organisations lie, trust is damaged.

    Perhaps a certain agency has lied* and perhaps they require a great deal of trust to operate in the manner in which they have chosen and in turn allow the trust to be found to be deserving of their efforts.

    It's never too late, to be honest.

    It is the American way , if you TRULY seek redemption, to

    Firstly ; Admit the wrong doing.

    Secondly: You must say sorry for the wrong doing and actually mean it and understand the WHY behind that which you did was wrong.

    Perhaps some compulsory study of the constitution would reveal the why.

    What happens beyond that differs with regards the scenario, however the trust will not be solid or real ever again without the first two things occurring.

    Please don't bother to rail at me about 'how the real world determines this shall never happen given their line of business.'

    The same goes for the Tech companies crying foul after they knowingly participated in immoral and probably illegal activities against their customers.

    *: gone far beyond the traditional lies of omission of the truthes that the elected representatives seek of them.

  201. Go fuck yourself NSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'd rather have dead computers than have the NSA around.

  202. Sounds familiar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This sounds like the attack in South Korea from March this year. That targeted the MBR for the system crash delivery but the strategy is the same. originating IPs for that were in China, so experts would mention that whilst hastily trying explain the difference between an IP and a person. North Korea was considered the responsible state in that attack and would be a more likely culprit for developing this kind of tech. No criticism of the NSA for doing this work, it is what they exist for.

    Could someone tell me what this has to do with the world wide information gathering program? Seems completely unrelated to me.

  203. Re: URL: #badBIOS by dirkmitt · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You have suggested we look at the hash-tag #badBIOS , to see the system in action, that deploys PC firmware updates via Windows. This is one of the several articles written on the Web about this, all from the same guy, who goes by the name "Ruiu": Suggested Link What I find the most dubious about all this, is the ability "to transmit small amounts of network data with other infected machines even when their power cords and Ethernet cables were unplugged and their Wi-Fi and Bluetooth cards were removed." Also note, "(badBIOS) has the ability to use high-frequency transmissions passed between computer speakers and microphones to bridge airgaps." Can I be forgiven for not taking such claims seriously? To the best of my own knowledge, (1) Actual BIOS updates are infrequent, not a part of any routine workflow. (2) Even though virus-writers can use them to cripple computers - via a running O/S - SysAdmins can't use them unless they shut down the computer first, precisely because they do not work as described in this article. (3) Attempts are frequently made to bypass Protected Memory on the O/S, to result in viruses gaining access to all the hardware. But this cannot - presently - be used to produce a changed BIOS which works normally. (4) Instead of using floppy disks, we use USB sticks today. We put a file onto that USB drive, which has the filename extension .ROM . It stands for 'a ROM Image'. And because some advanced File Systems require than special drivers be loaded, even in this day and age we format those USB sticks with FAT32, just in case. (5) It's considered gauche, if there is even more than one .ROM File on the stick, even though technically, the BIOS itself, booted into admin mode, displays the .ROM Files in a list, for the user to choose from.

  204. Re: Please define "BIOS Update Workflow". by dnavid · · Score: 1

    Since a legitimate BIOS Update, which leads to a working BIOS, takes place between a USB Stick, physically connected to a computer's Motherboard, whose O/S has been shut down, where exactly did the BIOS Update Workflow need to be fixed?

    These days manufacturers, particularly for systems with UEFI BIOS, provide utilities that can update the BIOS of your system without booting special update software from physical media. For example, Dell offers BIOS updates that run from within Windows (although they do require reboots).

    Besides that, there's the question of how you got the BIOS update in the first place, how you transferred it to a USB stick, how you verified the BIOS update was the correct one for your system. There is a workflow to updating BIOSs that begin with getting the update in the first place and doesn't end until you verify your system can boot from the new one. Modern BIOSs also tend to have built-in verifiers that can reject incorrect or false BIOSs. So even if I were to give you a BIOS update of my own creation, odds are without a deliberate attempt to defeat those security and integrity checking features your computer would not allow you to load my custom BIOS.

    NIST SP800-147 specifically refers to standards to protect BIOS integrity, particularly against tampering or unauthorized upgrading. It also covers some of the whole of BIOS update workflow and process, both on the meatware side and the internal technical side.

    In any case, if you think updating the BIOS on modern hardware requires a person taking special action with a USB stick and explicitly running a special flashing process, that's no longer true. Theoretically speaking, an attacker could craft malware that ran under Windows or Linux, reflashed your BIOS behind your back, and that BIOS would then take effect the next time you rebooted or power cycled your computer, and it could be crafted to occur without any obvious signs of tampering. *If* the attacker was capable of defeating the security measures designed to prevent such things from occurring, none of which are foolproof.

  205. Re: It's the BIOS, which administers a BIOS patch. by dirkmitt · · Score: 1

    The logical conclusion is if this attack existed at all, it was more likely to be a vulnerability in the BIOS update workflow, perhaps someone managed to penetrate the signing keys of most of the major BIOS manufacturers which would have allowed them to push out apparent BIOS updates to a wide range of computers.

    What you're telling me, is that when I booted my BIOS into Admin mode, after I had given the command to Windows to reboot, when I told the BIOS to Update to a .ROM File, which it finds in the root directory of the USB stick I just inserted, the existing BIOS should have checked the signature of that (new) ROM Image, before accepting it. And so a failure to enforce a signature, would become a failure in the existing BIOS. Which has already been shipped in millions of computers.

    Well while this type of signature-checking does exist with Secure Boot, (a) it requires hardware-support at that, and (b) applies to operating systems, not BIOS ROM Images.

  206. cold fjord save us by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    c'mon cold fjord, tell us what to think

  207. Re:they secretly patched everyone's machines. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    patched...?
    with what?? ;)

  208. Re:they secretly patched everyone's machines. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    actually, maybe it wasn't patched.
    maybe the 'bug' is already fully deployed "in the wild"
    and they just blocked the/a trigger en mass/en route.

  209. Re: I apologize for my Error. by dirkmitt · · Score: 1

    I'm sorry that I argued against your idea so energetically - and ultimately falsely.

    I suppose that my information is grossly out-of-date. In response to your most recent posting, I looked up this subject on the Web, and found an article which confirms what you are saying:

    External Reference

    In particular, this article states that a BIOS update can be performed in some cases, by double-clicking on an .EXE File, which is by far different from what I had to do (only in 2011, for a contemporary computer) using a USB stick and an .ROM File.

    But then I must also admit, that the possible answers to the whole NSA question change completely as well. Since the BIOS can be flashed behind our backs, there is indeed little allowing the general public to know whether 'The BIOS Plot' as such was real, nor what the NSA could have done about it. At that point there is some slight plausibility, even for the idea of the NSA having used that - or having used some other back door - to get into our computers.

  210. Oh they stopped it alright by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But only by ruining the economy first.

  211. 'NSA' is an initialism for 'Treason' by Tenebrousedge · · Score: 1

    Look, maybe you can find some nuance to where a branch of the military running an intelligence operation against the People it is sworn to protect and defend, does not qualify as treason. Rest assured the NSA is equally concerned with the subject, so you may want to let them know if you have some discovery there.

    I happen to call that treason, and the documents of whatever nation in question are not particularly relevant to my definition. It is purest folly to have military specialists employed against their own society, in whatever form. The persons responsible for this program deserve to hang as traitors, and Justice will not be served by any lesser charge. May God have mercy on their souls.

    --
    Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
  212. .. and my arse .. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    .. is a Cuckoo clock

  213. Whenever the NSA claims anything by mgcarley · · Score: 1

    We only need to respond with 2 words: Citation Needed.

    --
    Founder & COO, Hayai India (hayai.in) / USA (hayaibroadband.com) // t: @mgcarley
  214. The U.S. economy was destoryed decades ago... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The U.S. economy has been increasingly and exponentially destroyed for decades now thanks to the Ronnie "Rape America" Reaganites and the glutenous elitist excesses of globalizing corporapists and banksters. How could malware destroy something that's already been nuked?

  215. who needs Malware? by flupher · · Score: 1

    Malware isn't needed to destroy our economy. Our legislative & executive branches are up to the task.

  216. Sorry NSA.... by rx7chick · · Score: 1

    Wolf! Wolf!

  217. That's the job of the ... by __aaykqx8915 · · Score: 0

    We can't allow malware to destroy the US economy. That is the job of the FED!!!!! And a fine job they are doing!

  218. Fix The Brick by agrisea · · Score: 1

    If China was behind the BIOS plot, aren't most all of the motherboards and their BIOS chips made in China anyway?

    If a computer is "bricked" because the BIOS is faulty, have people forgotten that in the old days we could physically remove the BIOS and replace it with another. Looking at a new PC motherboard, BIOS chips are no longer replaceable. Maybe it is time American companies made the BIOS chips in America and made it so we can once again replace as needed.

    --
    Agrisea Tsunami - Epyc Servers... https://agrisea.net/products
  219. No surprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Cyber terrorisism is not a surprise, in fact it should simply be expected. So long as countries see some advantage to attacking others either physically, or digitally such practices will continue. It is simply another form of warfare. The intention of doing harm in this way is only marginally less sinister than using actual bombs and bullets. Both such behaviours are in the long run counterproductive, costing billions in either inception of defense. When people starve or shelter in camps to escape civil war. When mistrust and malcontent create chaos and stimulate violence, it this kind of foolishness doesn't say much about the human condition.

  220. Paranoia by brunnegd · · Score: 1

    There appears to be a lot of paranoid people on this site, paranoid about our own government. They should worry about the ChiComs and the other states that can take down our infrastructure, easily.

  221. Hey, NSA, Welcome to the 1980's by ConallB · · Score: 1

    First off, a BIOS attack? Really? Welcome to the 1980's!

    Secondly, Request for software update to attack BIOS? Have you tried to update your BIOS? It aint that easy and any bios made since the late 80's has safeguards to prevent BIOS updates in the way that's described.

    Thirdly, to brick enough computers to ruin the US economy using a bios update would be practically impossible. Never mind that such an attack would have to target people stupid enough to apply updates to systems in locked server rooms. Good luck with that!

    --
    Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.
  222. Re: I apologize for my Error. by dnavid · · Score: 1

    But then I must also admit, that the possible answers to the whole NSA question change completely as well. Since the BIOS can be flashed behind our backs, there is indeed little allowing the general public to know whether 'The BIOS Plot' as such was real, nor what the NSA could have done about it.

    The only way we would know, I think, is if someone at an actual computer manufacturer or other first-hand witness comes forward with knowledge that the NSA, or a proxy like NIST, actually contacted computer manufacturers about and advised a response to a security issue, or there's documentation somewhere about that effort somewhere in the public domain (even if the original reasons for the activity are obfuscated). I'm still not sure if the NSA isn't at least exaggerating in their assertions, something even security companies regularly do, I'm just not willing to dismiss the entire idea as impossible. What is possible today from a security vulnerability perspective is often apparently implausible until demonstrated. Cryptolocker would have been impractical in the days before untraceable Bitcoins. Modern IP PBXs make essentially untraceable phone calls possible for phishing attacks. Stuxnet would have been laughed off as science fiction ten years ago. I think BadBIOS is going to turn out to be a false positive, and not a supervirus, but the fact that people are actually debating whether its possible at all - and not coming to a general consensus - is in and of itself demonstrative of how we've become very conservative in the security community about declaring things to be impossible.

    We once thought the NSA put a backdoor in DES, only to discover twenty years later they actually strengthened it against a form of attack we didn't even know existed outside of the NSA back when DES was invented, an assertion that would have been completely implausible until it was demonstrated. Its a shame the NSA irrevocably destroyed that goodwill a billion times over, because ultimately in the long run trust was the most valuable thing they possessed, and nothing they've accomplished or even claimed to have accomplished will compensate for that loss. There were always people who thought the NSA was evil, but at least most of us thought they were on our side. Regardless of whose side they think they are on, they've convinced the majority of people they are not on theirs.

  223. And the malware involved was by Douglas+Goodall · · Score: 1

    Windows 8

  224. NSA by Sciath · · Score: 1

    The government in general believes the average american is either stupid or just plain gullible. Look at out secondary school math, science, history, etc. scores compared to other nations including those who are educated in communist china. Let's not forget the communist ideology still exists, particularly in china. They finally wised up to "capitalism" but have not (and are not to thus day) willing to abandon their communist political system. They still have the goal of conquering the world. Be it for the validation of the communist ideology or for global hegemony. They've just got smarter about how world domination is achieved, just watch the West. Money equals power. With powered comes domination. Why would china care if they undermine the western economies if their ultimate goal is ideological? To be able to claim they "defeated the west", regardless of how it's done makes no difference. Economically of militarily success is success. Look at how the U.S. bragged about defeating the "communist soviet union". It was one of Reagan's favorite claims. How was the soviets defeated? Financially. The Chinese are a little more "wise". They realized they could "allow" a freer economy while maintaining a communist power structure. What does debt mean to them if they are aiming for global domination in which they can call the shots as opposed to the U.S. Domination merely requires money and military. Whose the latest to land on the moon? Sure, the U.S. did it 30 some years ago, but then we abandoned space development (thanks to Nixon, Carter and Reagan). Why? Too costly. Well, whose got the money now? The Chinese have publicly stated they plan to put people on the moon. The moon has significant resource and strategic advantages. We don't have the money for it because the U.S. spends billions on "policing" the rest of the world. And the Chinese live us for it. They more resources they can "force" the U.S. to spend on global conflict, the fewer resources we can devote to space development. The U.S. doesn't even have the launch capabilities to put people into space. We have to pay the Russians millions of dollars every time they put one of our astronauts up to the International Space Station. Imagine that! The communist threat of past generations are now being paid by the "free world" to put humans into space. While the NSA spends billions on surveillance of everyone on the planet, for "national security". The real national security lies in self reliance and forward looking national goals.

    --
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
  225. One second, aren't motherboards actually Chinese? by Optali · · Score: 1

    Everything nice and dandy... but aren't almost all motherboards actually made in China?

    so... what need would there be for the bad Chinese to create extra malware? They could just have dropped backdoors into each mobo and done.

    And now that we talk of China: Why in Hell's name would they want to fuck up the economy of their own customers? I don't get it.

    --
    -- 29A the number of the Beast
  226. Why?! by Captain_Chaos · · Score: 1

    This makes no sense whatsoever. Why on Earth would China want to destroy the US economy?! China is not at war with the US. On the other hand China has huge financial interests in the US (I believe China owns most of the US these days), and even if it didn't, the hit to the world economy if the US economy collapsed would be so large that China would be dragged down as well. There is no reason for China to want to harm the US economy and every reason for them to want to bolster it.

    Could the NSA really not have come up with a more believable story?

  227. So the NSA identified a trojan horse? by linearz69 · · Score: 1

    "The attack would have been disguised as a request for a software update. If the user agreed, the virus would’ve infected the computer." Technically, this wouldn't be a virus, but a trojan horse. Imagine that - people involved in computer security found a trojan horse. Our tax dollars at work. Big friendly brother and all that.