Although its possible that I may know things you don't, I can at least read my own posts. If you read my post it is clear that I was responding specifically to the assertion that national security, "Not only is it no mere excuse, it's often an outright lie."
There are many frivolous arguments being made about national security on Slashdot. Thoughtless exposure of intelligence programs can seriously undermine or negate their value possibly leading to a major failure. Major national security failures can have significant consequences, including getting thousands of people killed, and major damage to the economy. It doesn't matter to the dead if those failures come from inside or outside the intelligence agencies. It's nothing to toy with.
If you follow the news you can see that al Qaida tries to learn from its mistakes and also makes use of whatever information it can get its hands on. Providing them inside glimpses of American counter-intelligence programs could be very helpful to them in devising means to distract, confuse, or avoid the intelligence agencies. Al Qaida and its allies have already made use of Wikileaks materials and announced their intentions to kill people based on it. I have little doubt they'll be looking over whatever material Snowden makes available, as well as anything that comes out of the FISA court. And there certainly are lawyers in the US that are sympathetic to extremist causes that could potentially cue them in on key aspects of it.
If you have any thoughts about how everybody in the world except al Qaida and its allies can be given access to this sort of material, I'd love to hear it. You should probably also send a copy to NSA and CIA.
Let me know when Congress declares war and makes it legal.
The Authorization For Use Of United States Armed Forces is legally equivalent to a declaration of war. That's long settled law. It's legal.
Otherwise, try to stop pissing off the rest of the world and it won't blow up in your own face so much.
That won't help with al Qaida since like many people around the world they have their own values and goals unrelated to anything the US has done or will do. Al Qaida's goal is to restore the Islamic Caliphate dissolved in 1923 with the fall of the Ottoman Empire, instill an extremist Islamist government in Muslim countries, and conquer the entire world so it is ruled by Muslims, even if it take 1,000 years. It doesn't matter what we think of their goals, they believe in them. Bin Laden's two big demands after 9/11 were that the United States convert to Islam, and that the Constitution be replaced by Sharia law. They believe they are on a mission from god.
I honestly couldn't care less if he broke the law or not; that is not my concern.
So you don't support the rule of law then?
And the ones who don't actually reveal any wrongdoings would be punished. There is no problem there; we have too many secrets as it is.
Wrongdoing is legally defined. You just indicated that you don't care about law breaking, but now you do? Which is it? On what basis is what you call "wrongdoing" to be determined if it is not done legally? Whimsy?
There are laws and regulations that govern the handling of classified information for the government. Those laws and regulations shouldn't just be violated, they should be changed if change is needed. But until they are changed, they should be complied with... that is if you support the rule of law.
Really? At every opportunity they refuse to give out any information; court rulings, decisions, and even the existence of various programs. There wasn't much else to do.
That is a ridiculous, and has no bearing on the options available to Snowden. He could have gone to the Inspector General, or to Congress. It is Congress that would have to change the laws in any event. It is Congress that changes the laws if need be. That is how the democratic process works.
I believe that legally, the phone records aren't yours, they are they are owned by the phone company. So the government isn't searching you, they are searching the phone company.
(a) In General.--That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.
That document was issued after this series of events:
1996 Bin Laden's Fatwa - Text of the fatwa, or declaration of war, by Osama bin Laden first published in Al Quds Al Arabi
If even that isn't possible, then the AG would need to explain specifically why the opinion needs to be kept secret.
That's just pathetic. Give them the opportunity to hide their wrongdoings and that's exactly what they will do. The "national security" excuses need to stop.
So do you think there is no reason to be concerned about protecting critical intelligence sources and methods, or the identities of informants? Once those are compromised they may lose some or even all of their value. No reason to be concerned about helping foreign powers and terrorist groups identify gaps in security and opportunities to exploit? Do you think America's adversaries should know exactly what American intelligence agencies and law enforcement agencies will and won't do? Why provide the enemy shortcuts in planning an attack?
Since 9/11 there have been a number of attacks and attempted attacks, and hundreds of arrests and convictions for terrorism related offenses, including both planned and attempted vehicle bombings intended to inflict mass casualties.
Communist China also has more than 3,000 front companies in the US for gathering intelligence. Should they get to read all the inner details about American surveillance operations to better avoid detection and steal even more American secrets?
What value do you put on the lives of ordinary Americans?
I don't think you have this right. National security isn't just an "excuse." It helps keep Americans from being killed by the hundreds and thousands.
You mean the semi-autonomous capitalist city-state of Hong Kong? HK has been a thorn in the side of the CCP constantly - as a British Crown Colony before the handover and as a Special Administrative Region after.
You mean the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region commonly referred to as Hong Kong, China, which is now garrisoned by the People's Republic of China's People's Liberation Army as opposed to the British Army of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland? The same Hong Kong where roughly 400,000 people staged mass protests while the territory’s new Chief Executive, Leung Chun-ying, was being sworn in after being appointed by the People's Republic of China's central government?
Snowden is being accused of Treason (aiding The Enemy) for sharing information with the American People. Does that mean the American People are The Enemy?
No, it means that by making what he has available to everybody, both the American people and the enemy can get it. Also note that it is unknown what else he has. Based on some things in the media, he may very well have a secret stash for multiple purposes: leverage, trading, revenge, buying a way out. Same idea as Assange's "insurance file."
The situation is similar to Wikileaks' release of unredacted lists of Taliban informers given to them by Manning. Wikileaks didn't care who got it. The Taliban grabbed copies of the lists and other documents and started looking for information about who the informers were. The Taliban announced that they were going to hunt the informers down. Losing informers in a counterinsurgency or for counter-terrorism is a bad thing. It means you lose both the current source of information, and it makes people less likely to assist you in the future. That aids the insurgents and terrorists. That would be the Taliban and al Qaida in this case.
This whole mess is the reason there are established mechanisms to pursue concerns and complaints about wrongdoing while keeping confidential information confidential. If the management chain is unresponsive, the Inspector General for an agency is there to help. There also tends to be things like ethics hotlines available where anonymous complaints can be made. As a final resort, somebody can go to Congress. It is very much preferable for issues to be dealt with this way than to grab a satchel of secrets and defect.
The thing to pay attention to is that Congress is ultimately the one that investigates anyway. With these revelations in the media the security services and programs are damaged, but it is still Congress that has to do the investigations and oversight. It tends to work much better for the United States when the national security secrets are kept secret and Congress can do their work without having major intelligence programs compromised and undermined. Ultimately that is likely to work out better for the American people as well.
They are not "autonomous" at an international level. They are identified as "Chinese",
How hard is it to use wikipedia to check basic facts before spouting off nonsense in a public forum?
Hmmm, turns out you didn't acknowledge that the GP post had some important parts of that right, foreign affairs and defense affairs being rather important policy areas that are under the control of the People's Republic of China central government. I assume it's fair to ask you the same question?
The HKSAR will be directly under the authority of the Central People’s Government of the PRC and will enjoy a high degree of autonomy, except in foreign and defence affairs....
... the chief executive will be appointed by the Central People’s Government...
The name used for international relations will be ‘Hong Kong, China’...
You're correct that the available weapons have considerable power, and that they render the surface of the earth hazardous where used. I do wonder about the possibility of an advanced space faring civilization having weapons that are more subtle in effect that could be used to their advantage. For example, something akin to the neutron bomb: kills the people, but does far less damage to the ecosystem and infrastructure. There may well be other effects that could be harnessed to produce a similar outcome given a more sophisticated knowledge of physics, or even biology. Consider this recent story on Slashdot: 9th Grade Science Experiment: Garden Cress Won't Germinate Near Routers There is still a lot to learn about physics and biology. Hopefully humanity will survive the learning process, and won't have unexpected unwelcome visitors before we're ready.
There is certainly considerable merit in what you write. But allow me to present a different perspective for the sake of the argument. Consider the Fermi paradox and our observations of the universe so far. Although it is known that the universe is a very big place indeed, and it is thought that there must be many potentially habitable planets, in our very early and limited efforts we have yet to detect one apart from earth. It may be that they are rare, which would make life rare. If that turns out to be the case, any sort of signal created by a living intelligent being would be highly valuable in enabling other civilizations to locate the planet with life and a habitable environment, that is: earth. The fact that the civilization receiving the signal is intelligent says nothing about their values. Consider the diversity of civilizations on earth over the last 100 years. They have ranged from free and peace loving to extremely oppressive regimes that desired to commit genocide on their own population to extremely oppressive regimes that desired to commit genocide on other populations, and all manner of other combinations. The Soviet Union put the first human into space less than ten years after Stalin died and the horror was still fresh in the mind of Soviet citizens. There are still cultures today that practiced cannibalism within living memory. There are still some stone age cultures on earth at the same time as the US contemplates going to Mars, and has space probes at the edge of the solar system. There is no way of predicting what the value system of that alien civilization will be. The ones that could end up contacting the Earth may be the predator species that lured the highly advanced, peaceful, defenseless race to their planet and made them the slaves of the predators. The possession of neither an advanced technology level nor an advanced culture says anything about whether their culture will turn out to be one we find to be morally good and peaceful, and their society beneficial to contact. Still, it is exciting to consider, isn't it? Maybe they would turn out to be the equivalent of the mythical Star Trek era Vulcans coming in peace, as opposed to the earlier war-like Vulcan cultures. Let us hope that if we ever do make contact, it is in peace and friendship, and to our mutual benefit.
As noted by this conservative author:
... so many people have asked how Germany, which produced Bach, Mozart and Beethoven, could also produce gas chambers -- as if producing great composers should in some way raise the moral level of that society. -- Much talent, little wisdom - Dennis Prager
It is a great movie. Allow me to share two more with you then. The first related to the movie. The second is a delightful sea tune which you will probably recognize.
"Anyone wanting to punish Snowden is a modern-day Nazi sympathizer." How's that for #6?
About as accurate as saying, "Anyone that wants to aid Snowden is a Communist sympathizer."
Neither are really true based solely on being for or against his actions. That doesn't mean that actual Nazis and communists might not be for or against him.
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin
Had to be said.
Then two other things must also be remembered: First, Benjamin Franklin opened other people's mail for intelligence purposes during the Revolutionary War. Second, there are two qualifiers present: essential and little temporary.
Are essential liberties being given up, and which ones? Permanently?
Gaining freedom is usually difficult enough. Keeping freedom in a entirely new challenge, requiring virtuous behavior over the long term. That is difficult for most peoples and nations when faced with changing circumstances over time.
Which government do you think will "disappear" him? He has a laptop full of stolen US national security data and is in the Communist Chinese city of Hong Kong, and has been invited to Russia. Don't you think that the Chinese government might have some people watching him? You know, in case he forgets his laptop after buying some noodles, so he doesn't lose it?
Slashdot Mirror
Although its possible that I may know things you don't, I can at least read my own posts. If you read my post it is clear that I was responding specifically to the assertion that national security, "Not only is it no mere excuse, it's often an outright lie."
There are many frivolous arguments being made about national security on Slashdot. Thoughtless exposure of intelligence programs can seriously undermine or negate their value possibly leading to a major failure. Major national security failures can have significant consequences, including getting thousands of people killed, and major damage to the economy. It doesn't matter to the dead if those failures come from inside or outside the intelligence agencies. It's nothing to toy with.
If you follow the news you can see that al Qaida tries to learn from its mistakes and also makes use of whatever information it can get its hands on. Providing them inside glimpses of American counter-intelligence programs could be very helpful to them in devising means to distract, confuse, or avoid the intelligence agencies. Al Qaida and its allies have already made use of Wikileaks materials and announced their intentions to kill people based on it. I have little doubt they'll be looking over whatever material Snowden makes available, as well as anything that comes out of the FISA court. And there certainly are lawyers in the US that are sympathetic to extremist causes that could potentially cue them in on key aspects of it.
If you have any thoughts about how everybody in the world except al Qaida and its allies can be given access to this sort of material, I'd love to hear it. You should probably also send a copy to NSA and CIA.
Let me know when Congress declares war and makes it legal.
The Authorization For Use Of United States Armed Forces is legally equivalent to a declaration of war. That's long settled law. It's legal.
Otherwise, try to stop pissing off the rest of the world and it won't blow up in your own face so much.
That won't help with al Qaida since like many people around the world they have their own values and goals unrelated to anything the US has done or will do. Al Qaida's goal is to restore the Islamic Caliphate dissolved in 1923 with the fall of the Ottoman Empire, instill an extremist Islamist government in Muslim countries, and conquer the entire world so it is ruled by Muslims, even if it take 1,000 years. It doesn't matter what we think of their goals, they believe in them. Bin Laden's two big demands after 9/11 were that the United States convert to Islam, and that the Constitution be replaced by Sharia law. They believe they are on a mission from god.
I honestly couldn't care less if he broke the law or not; that is not my concern.
So you don't support the rule of law then?
And the ones who don't actually reveal any wrongdoings would be punished. There is no problem there; we have too many secrets as it is.
Wrongdoing is legally defined. You just indicated that you don't care about law breaking, but now you do? Which is it? On what basis is what you call "wrongdoing" to be determined if it is not done legally? Whimsy?
There are laws and regulations that govern the handling of classified information for the government. Those laws and regulations shouldn't just be violated, they should be changed if change is needed. But until they are changed, they should be complied with ... that is if you support the rule of law.
Really? At every opportunity they refuse to give out any information; court rulings, decisions, and even the existence of various programs. There wasn't much else to do.
That is a ridiculous, and has no bearing on the options available to Snowden. He could have gone to the Inspector General, or to Congress. It is Congress that would have to change the laws in any event. It is Congress that changes the laws if need be. That is how the democratic process works.
I believe that legally, the phone records aren't yours, they are they are owned by the phone company. So the government isn't searching you, they are searching the phone company.
What Snowden should have done from the start was to go to the Inspector General, and then to Congress if he had a concern.
National security is no mere excuse.
Not only is it no mere excuse, it's often an outright lie,
Tell it to the dead and their families.
2001 9/11 attacks - 2,973 dead. Two skyscraper towers destroyed, heavy damage to Pentagon.
Estimated damage to US economy: ~ $100,000,000,000.
There might be an answer for that.
SEC. 2. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.
(a) In General.--That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.
That document was issued after this series of events:
1996 Bin Laden's Fatwa - Text of the fatwa, or declaration of war, by Osama bin Laden first published in Al Quds Al Arabi
1998 Bombing of US embassies in Tanzania and Kenya - 224 dead, est. 4,000 injured, both embassies heavily damaged
2000 Photo: USS Cole - Video USS Cole - 17 dead, 39 injured, major damage to destroyer
2001 9/11 attacks - 2,973 dead. Two skyscraper towers destroyed, heavy damage to Pentagon.
Estimated damage to US economy: ~ $100,000,000.
Sign language. The US government is short of interpreters, especially for cell phone intelligence.
If even that isn't possible, then the AG would need to explain specifically why the opinion needs to be kept secret.
That's just pathetic. Give them the opportunity to hide their wrongdoings and that's exactly what they will do. The "national security" excuses need to stop.
So do you think there is no reason to be concerned about protecting critical intelligence sources and methods, or the identities of informants? Once those are compromised they may lose some or even all of their value. No reason to be concerned about helping foreign powers and terrorist groups identify gaps in security and opportunities to exploit? Do you think America's adversaries should know exactly what American intelligence agencies and law enforcement agencies will and won't do? Why provide the enemy shortcuts in planning an attack?
Since 9/11 there have been a number of attacks and attempted attacks, and hundreds of arrests and convictions for terrorism related offenses, including both planned and attempted vehicle bombings intended to inflict mass casualties.
Communist China also has more than 3,000 front companies in the US for gathering intelligence. Should they get to read all the inner details about American surveillance operations to better avoid detection and steal even more American secrets?
What value do you put on the lives of ordinary Americans?
I don't think you have this right. National security isn't just an "excuse." It helps keep Americans from being killed by the hundreds and thousands.
You mean the semi-autonomous capitalist city-state of Hong Kong? HK has been a thorn in the side of the CCP constantly - as a British Crown Colony before the handover and as a Special Administrative Region after.
You mean the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region commonly referred to as Hong Kong, China, which is now garrisoned by the People's Republic of China's People's Liberation Army as opposed to the British Army of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland? The same Hong Kong where roughly 400,000 people staged mass protests while the territory’s new Chief Executive, Leung Chun-ying, was being sworn in after being appointed by the People's Republic of China's central government?
Yes, that's the one.
Snowden is being accused of Treason (aiding The Enemy) for sharing information with the American People. Does that mean the American People are The Enemy?
No, it means that by making what he has available to everybody, both the American people and the enemy can get it. Also note that it is unknown what else he has. Based on some things in the media, he may very well have a secret stash for multiple purposes: leverage, trading, revenge, buying a way out. Same idea as Assange's "insurance file."
The situation is similar to Wikileaks' release of unredacted lists of Taliban informers given to them by Manning. Wikileaks didn't care who got it. The Taliban grabbed copies of the lists and other documents and started looking for information about who the informers were. The Taliban announced that they were going to hunt the informers down. Losing informers in a counterinsurgency or for counter-terrorism is a bad thing. It means you lose both the current source of information, and it makes people less likely to assist you in the future. That aids the insurgents and terrorists. That would be the Taliban and al Qaida in this case.
This whole mess is the reason there are established mechanisms to pursue concerns and complaints about wrongdoing while keeping confidential information confidential. If the management chain is unresponsive, the Inspector General for an agency is there to help. There also tends to be things like ethics hotlines available where anonymous complaints can be made. As a final resort, somebody can go to Congress. It is very much preferable for issues to be dealt with this way than to grab a satchel of secrets and defect.
The thing to pay attention to is that Congress is ultimately the one that investigates anyway. With these revelations in the media the security services and programs are damaged, but it is still Congress that has to do the investigations and oversight. It tends to work much better for the United States when the national security secrets are kept secret and Congress can do their work without having major intelligence programs compromised and undermined. Ultimately that is likely to work out better for the American people as well.
They are not "autonomous" at an international level. They are identified as "Chinese",
How hard is it to use wikipedia to check basic facts before spouting off nonsense in a public forum?
Hmmm, turns out you didn't acknowledge that the GP post had some important parts of that right, foreign affairs and defense affairs being rather important policy areas that are under the control of the People's Republic of China central government. I assume it's fair to ask you the same question?
Sino-British Joint Declaration
The HKSAR will be directly under the authority of the Central People’s Government of the PRC and will enjoy a high degree of autonomy, except in foreign and defence affairs....
... the chief executive will be appointed by the Central People’s Government ...
The name used for international relations will be ‘Hong Kong, China’...
You're correct that the available weapons have considerable power, and that they render the surface of the earth hazardous where used. I do wonder about the possibility of an advanced space faring civilization having weapons that are more subtle in effect that could be used to their advantage. For example, something akin to the neutron bomb: kills the people, but does far less damage to the ecosystem and infrastructure. There may well be other effects that could be harnessed to produce a similar outcome given a more sophisticated knowledge of physics, or even biology. Consider this recent story on Slashdot: 9th Grade Science Experiment: Garden Cress Won't Germinate Near Routers There is still a lot to learn about physics and biology. Hopefully humanity will survive the learning process, and won't have unexpected unwelcome visitors before we're ready.
Insightful and hilarious. Thanks!
There is certainly considerable merit in what you write. But allow me to present a different perspective for the sake of the argument. Consider the Fermi paradox and our observations of the universe so far. Although it is known that the universe is a very big place indeed, and it is thought that there must be many potentially habitable planets, in our very early and limited efforts we have yet to detect one apart from earth. It may be that they are rare, which would make life rare. If that turns out to be the case, any sort of signal created by a living intelligent being would be highly valuable in enabling other civilizations to locate the planet with life and a habitable environment, that is: earth. The fact that the civilization receiving the signal is intelligent says nothing about their values. Consider the diversity of civilizations on earth over the last 100 years. They have ranged from free and peace loving to extremely oppressive regimes that desired to commit genocide on their own population to extremely oppressive regimes that desired to commit genocide on other populations, and all manner of other combinations. The Soviet Union put the first human into space less than ten years after Stalin died and the horror was still fresh in the mind of Soviet citizens. There are still cultures today that practiced cannibalism within living memory. There are still some stone age cultures on earth at the same time as the US contemplates going to Mars, and has space probes at the edge of the solar system. There is no way of predicting what the value system of that alien civilization will be. The ones that could end up contacting the Earth may be the predator species that lured the highly advanced, peaceful, defenseless race to their planet and made them the slaves of the predators. The possession of neither an advanced technology level nor an advanced culture says anything about whether their culture will turn out to be one we find to be morally good and peaceful, and their society beneficial to contact. Still, it is exciting to consider, isn't it? Maybe they would turn out to be the equivalent of the mythical Star Trek era Vulcans coming in peace, as opposed to the earlier war-like Vulcan cultures. Let us hope that if we ever do make contact, it is in peace and friendship, and to our mutual benefit.
As noted by this conservative author:
... so many people have asked how Germany, which produced Bach, Mozart and Beethoven, could also produce gas chambers -- as if producing great composers should in some way raise the moral level of that society. -- Much talent, little wisdom - Dennis Prager
It is a great movie. Allow me to share two more with you then. The first related to the movie. The second is a delightful sea tune which you will probably recognize.
Boccherini- (Master and Commander)
"Sailor's Hornpipe"
Enjoy your week. :)
Although I'm not a big zombie fan, I like your thinking. If you're looking at a zombie army you can't overlook The Bid Dead One
No mission too difficult, no sacrifice too great, duty....mmmmm...brains!!
I sure do hope they get this right. It would be a shame if it turned out they created a intergalactic message like this.
"Anyone wanting to punish Snowden is a modern-day Nazi sympathizer." How's that for #6?
About as accurate as saying, "Anyone that wants to aid Snowden is a Communist sympathizer."
Neither are really true based solely on being for or against his actions. That doesn't mean that actual Nazis and communists might not be for or against him.
And the President is supposed to act as a check ... NOT to keep Americans "safe"! So nobody is doing their damn job except the watchers ....
--------
United States Constitution, Article II, Section 2, Clause 1
“The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States....”
That is probably there for a reason.
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin
Had to be said.
Then two other things must also be remembered: First, Benjamin Franklin opened other people's mail for intelligence purposes during the Revolutionary War. Second, there are two qualifiers present: essential and little temporary.
Are essential liberties being given up, and which ones? Permanently?
Gaining freedom is usually difficult enough. Keeping freedom in a entirely new challenge, requiring virtuous behavior over the long term. That is difficult for most peoples and nations when faced with changing circumstances over time.
Who watches the watchers?
Congress is supposed to watch the watchers. The voters are supposed to watch Congress.
Which government do you think will "disappear" him? He has a laptop full of stolen US national security data and is in the Communist Chinese city of Hong Kong, and has been invited to Russia. Don't you think that the Chinese government might have some people watching him? You know, in case he forgets his laptop after buying some noodles, so he doesn't lose it?
Now I see your game.