I don't want "it all". I just want our government to respect our rights and our Constitution. Is that too much to ask?
That depends on which Constitution you are referring to. If it is the one written as a founding document of the United States, as written, with a long period of interpretation and decisions in the courts, then that isn't too much to ask for. If it is the same constitution, ignoring the long history and results of jurisprudence, but with a strong added dose of common misunderstanding and possibly fortified with fringe theories, then that probably is too much to ask for. The only thing you are likely to get is the first, but many people desire something like the second.
You acknowledge the existence of terrorists, their attacks, and their determination to attack in the future:
And? What of it? We all know this
From there you apparently don't see any reason that the intelligence agencies shouldn't be crippled, which means they will be unable to perform their function of providing intelligence to prevent attacks.
But why?
The practical result of crippling the intelligence agencies will almost certainly be more successful attacks in the future which can easily kill hundreds, or even thousands, of people per attack. I don't see how you aren't making that connection, or that you don't think it is a bad thing that should be prevented.
From there you to nonsense.
The only reason you've left us with is that you're extremely afraid of terrorists and are willing to throw anything and everything away if you believe it will help stop them.
I never stated any such thing in either case. It is more personal attack than argument.
So maybe you could explain to me why you think it is OK to allow terrorists to attack your fellow countrymen, and possibly you, unimpeded by the security services acting upon good intelligence?
You mean to tell me that not having a death wish is now treason... good call genius.
Based on the evidence of these posts, yes, apparently it is. Wanting to prevent terrorist attacks is apparently now considered treason in the West, at least among the Slashdot community. In the minds of those same people, it is by stealing data from intelligence agencies and making it available to America's adversaries that one becomes a "patriot." Moral confusion is rampant.
I still don't really see you making any counterarguments or providing any new facts. Its pretty much all personal attack. So I'll give you one more attempt. Where do I go wrong below? Where is the hyperbole, the straw men? The blinding fear? I understand that injecting actual facts on this subject is unpopular with many people.
Terrorists exist. They've conducted attacks in the past. They'll continue to attempt attacks in the future. A significant part of the reason the number of successful attacks has been limited is due to hard work by the security services, good intelligence, and civic minded people. Crippling the intelligence agencies is a bad idea. In the past, people that stole large amounts of classified documents from the intelligence agencies, fled the country, and took refuge in a communist country where they began making the documents available to America's adversaries have been considered and called spies and traitors. Below is a list of a few attacks and arrests of terrorists.
2013 Boston Marathon bombing 3 dead, 254 wounded. Fifteen victims suffered amputations, two of which had double amputations.
Denver: Man Arrested for Providing Material Support to a Designated Foreign Terrorist Organization
Jamshid Muhtorov was arrested by members of the FBI’s Denver and Chicago Joint Terrorism Task Forces on a charge of providing and attempting to provide material support to the Islamic Jihad Union, a Pakistan-based designated foreign terrorist organization.
Baltimore: Man Pleads Guilty to Attempted Use of a Weapon of Mass Destruction in Plot to Attack Armed Forces Recruiting Center
U.S. citizen Antonio Martinez, aka Muhammad Hussain, pled guilty to attempted use of a weapon of mass destruction against federal property in connection with a scheme to attack an armed forces recruiting station in Catonsville, Maryland.
Washington Field: Man Pleads Guilty to Shootings at Pentagon, Other Military Buildings
Yonathan Melaku, of Alexandria, Virginia, pled guilty to damaging property and to firearms violations involving five separate shootings at military installations in northern Virginia between October and November 2010, and to attempting to damage veterans’ memorials at Arlington National Cemetery.
1.Tampa: Florida Resident Charged with Plotting to Bomb Locations in Tampa
A 25-year-old resident of Pinellas Park, Florida was charged in connection with an alleged plot to attack locations in Tampa with a vehicle bomb, assault rifle, and other explosives.
Denver: Man Arrested for Providing Material Support to a Designated Foreign Terrorist Organization
Jamshid Muhtorov was arrested by members of the FBI’s Denver and Chicago Joint Terrorism Task Forces on a charge of providing and attempting to provide material support to the Islamic Jihad Union, a Pakistan-based designated foreign terrorist organization.
Baltimore: Man Pleads Guilty to Attempted Use of a Weapon of Mass Destruction in Plot to Attack Armed Forces Recruiting Center
U.S. citizen Antonio Martinez, aka Muhammad Hussain, pled guilty to attempted use of a weapon of mass destruction against federal property in connection with a scheme to attack an armed forces recruiting station in Catonsville, Maryland.
Washington Field: Man Pleads Guilty to Shootings at Pentagon, Other Military Buildings
Yonathan Melaku, of Alexandria, Virginia, pled guilty to damaging property and to firearms violations involving five separate shootings at military installations in northern Virginia between October and November 2010, and to attempting to damage veterans’ memorials at Arlington National Cemetery.
1.Tampa: Florida Resident Charged with Plotting to Bomb Locations in Tampa
A 25-year-old resident of Pinellas Park, Florida was charged in connection with an alleged plot to attack locations in Tampa with a vehicle bomb, assault rifle, and other explosives.
2.Baltimore: Former Army Solider Charged with Attempting to Provide Material Support to al Shabaab
A man who secretly converted to Islam days before he separated from the Army was charged with attempting to provide material support to al Shabaab, a foreign terrorist organization, and was arrested upon his return to Maryland after traveling to Africa.
Um. What sort of patriotism caused the 9/11 attack? Because we know the damage created by those patriots.
The 9/11 hijackers were essentially patriots of the Islamic Caliphate that was dissolved in 1923 with the fall of the Ottoman Empire. They support its restoration as one of Al Qaida's goals. (Actually that is a wider goal of Islamists.) They also want to see all nations under Muslim rule, implementing Sharia law, and their people converted to Islam. Bin Laden's two big demands after 9/11 was that the United States convert to Islam, and implement Sharia law.
I'll agree that Turkey has some big problem that Russia doesn't. Turkey is in big trouble. At the moment I think Russia could turn out better, although there are some issues of concern. The fall of the Soviet Union was hard on Russia, and I fear the people are not truly free yet of the chains forged by Soviet rule. Hopefully both nations are moving in a good direction.
I take it then you will be working to dismantle the fire department and ambulance service in your community? After all, you personally have a minute chance of needing them this year, right? And you carry no insurance on your home, since that is a small risk? And no life or health insurance either I take it?
Get back to me when you have that done.
You should also probably stop looking both ways before you cross the street. After all, you don't want to give in to fear, do you? The same goes locking the door to your home at night, staying out of bad neighborhoods after dark, wearing blaze orange for hunting, having a reserve parachute, wearing your seatbelt, not drinking expired milk, not licking metal poles when its freezing, and not peeing on electric fences. It's all "fear based."
Part of the problem on Slashdot is that so many here seem to be incapable of understanding that you can undertake actions based on prudence rather than fear. That seems to be a major limitation in many people's thinking. That represents quite a fall from the founding of America when prudence was considered a major virtue. Apparently no more. The only motivation now is "fear." I think that shows in your post.
Approval is a process, not necessarily an outcome. Warrant requests can and have been denied. I doubt that the large number of federal judges that rotate through the court for a temporary term would agree to being "rubber stamps." I would expect that they would in fact continue to use the same federal standards for issuing warrants that they used before coming to, and after leaving, the FISA court. If they were agreeable to being "rubber stamps" while temporarily at the FISA court, it seems unlikely that they would stop being so once they go back to their home court, don't you think? But believe what you will. There are still people that believe the moon landings were faked, and that 9/11 was an inside job. The 9/11 "truthers" have been regular posters on Slashdot over the years. I expect that "nano-thermite" may have something in common with that missing substance you think the FISA court lacks. Have a great week.
Working with classified programs is always going to be difficult. That is why Congress needs to be fully engaged and performing oversight to make sure what is going on is reasonable while the US is at war with Al Qaida. From the picture that seems to be emerging, the operation provides valuable intelligence, the procedural safeguards limit the risk to meaningful privacy, and the operation is under the scrutiny of the FISA court made up of judges from other US Federal courts that rotate through. I think it is reasonable to be concerned, but not panicked. If you have concerns, write your Congressman.
Applying the logic in this thread, advocating that Americans have a reasonable defense against terrorism to prevent them from being killed in large numbers is now treason. On the other hand, patriotism is now stealing documents from American intelligence agencies instead of going to the Inspector General or Congress, making the documents available to America's adversaries where they may be used to bypass the defenses protecting Americans, fleeing the country to the "freedom" of Communist China, and maybe next to authoritarian Russia, and waiting for the outcome. And that outcome might very well be a successful terrorist attack causing mass casualties, or maybe even an attack by a rogue state such as Iran or North Korea. I think your civics lessons went off the rail at some point.
I do have a question for you. I see in your post that you consider Congress to be treacherous, which pretty much implies treasonous. From some of your other posts it appears you think the judiciary has Constitutional interpretation all wrong. And it goes without saying that President Obama must be wrong if the other two are. That means I'm being labeled a traitor by the rarest of geniuses who is right when everybody else is wrong about the Constitution, government in general, and the question of providing adequate protection from terrorists for ordinary Americans. With that sort of genius I would expect you to have something better to add to the discussion than name calling. Shouldn't someone of your rare gifts have either facts or clever arguments to add to the discussion? You've offered neither. Why?
I'm always happy to engage in reasoned debate with those that have good arguments, or consider facts that may prove me wrong. You have neither and so you rely upon ad hominem attack. What is even sadder is that you were moderated up for that nonsense.
I know little that you couldn't, but apparently much that you don't. And that is sad, really. But you aren't alone. So, here is what I'm talking about to help you along.
Attacks against Americans that were attempted and not intercepted, or completed (this excludes war zones):
2013 Boston Marathon bombing 3 dead, 254 wounded. Fifteen victims suffered amputations, two of which had double amputations.
Denver: Man Arrested for Providing Material Support to a Designated Foreign Terrorist Organization
Jamshid Muhtorov was arrested by members of the FBI’s Denver and Chicago Joint Terrorism Task Forces on a charge of providing and attempting to provide material support to the Islamic Jihad Union, a Pakistan-based designated foreign terrorist organization.
Baltimore: Man Pleads Guilty to Attempted Use of a Weapon of Mass Destruction in Plot to Attack Armed Forces Recruiting Center
U.S. citizen Antonio Martinez, aka Muhammad Hussain, pled guilty to attempted use of a weapon of mass destruction against federal property in connection with a scheme to attack an armed forces recruiting station in Catonsville, Maryland.
Washington Field: Man Pleads Guilty to Shootings at Pentagon, Other Military Buildings
Yonathan Melaku, of Alexandria, Virginia, pled guilty to damaging property and to firearms violations involving five separate shootings at military installations in northern Virginia between October and November 2010, and to attempting to damage veterans’ memorials at Arlington National Cemetery.
That may be, but they are both different debates. And it doesn't cover all the territory. Taxes, for example, and permitting. The government has those powers as well, but not my neighbor. The government many powers that people don't have.
For all those people that say there isn't any issue with any level of snooping if you don't have anything to hide, you are exactly who should be worried. The more data available to analyze, the more false positives will be identified...... It's guaranteed that some very unlucky and completely innocent people will be going through hell for a long time.
When people are directly communicating with terrorist groups there would seem to be little chance of a "false positive." At the least it would reasonably indicate the need for additional scrutiny. The problem might actually be the reverse, the false negative. Consider the case of Major Hasan. He was in direct contact with American cleric turned terrorist, Anwar al-Awlaki. That direct contact was looked at and written off. Major Hasan then went on to kill 13 people and wound 30 at Fort Hood. It now looks like his court martial defense will be that he was defending the Taliban and Islam. In other words, he is expected to make what is essentially an admission in open court that he is a terrorist. Changing that attack from its current classification of "workplace violence" to what it really is, a terrorist attack, will make that the first mass casualty attack since 9/11, and Boston the second.
The thing about false positives is that they are likely to resolve themselves over time with additional scrutiny. I doubt that many actually innocent Americans have gone through "hell" on the basis of what you list. Gag orders and national security letters are used for data sources. Stings are used in ordinary criminal investigations as well. If they are really innocent, why would they be trying to buy stinger missiles, for example? Indefinite detention has been used as part of the Law of War focused operations overseas, and is completely legal for Prisoners of War.
The Fort Hood attack resulted in 13 dead and 30 wounded. The Boston bombing resulted in 3 dead, 254 wounded. Fifteen victims suffered amputations, two of which had double amputations. I think it is fairly likely that the number of dead and wounded in those two attacks are likely to far exceed the number of genuinely innocent Americans that will go through hell due to a false positive.
Who will guarantee there will be no more attacks if nothing is done? What is the life of an innocent victim of terrorism worth?
A real patriot for which country? His last known location was the People's Republic of China. He has been invited to live in Russia by Putin. He is bringing with him a laptop full of stolen intelligence agency data.
Brass balls? No. More like chutzpah to claim it was for the good of Americans.
In the past, American patriots worked in the United States to make it stronger. Some of them were even war heroes. Not these new "patriots," they steal secret data from the intelligence agencies and make it available to America's adversaries. Some day this sort of "patriotism" may even lead to a successful attack on the United States, killing large numbers of people. Will it still be "patriotic" then?
"Tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the government but illegal for the citizenry." -- Thomas Jefferson
That doesn't really make any sense. I don't think any reasonable... make that any sane person would claim that individual citizens should be able to own nuclear weapons, nor for that matter arrest people and hold them for questioning. I'm not going to call that tyranny.
The "quote" is almost certainly apocryphal even if it is popular in certain political spheres.
FISA is a court that deals in matters that are secret, not a secret court. The court itself is well known. The judges that preside are judges from other courts that rotate through it. The decisions can be cited, but they are often classified, so you would need a security clearance and a need to know to see them.
It is a court, not a tribunal. The one thing it doesn't do is conduct trials. Its purpose is to approve warrants and provide oversight.
Given your screen name, F. Ultra, it is a staggering irony that you believe that the US would disclose a highly successful Top Secret intelligence program at the first success, and possibly render it either ineffective or subject to counter-measures.
Ultra was one of the most closely guarded secrets of WW2 and aspects of it weren't declassified until the 1970s. Strenuous safeguards were in place to prevent the Germans from having even a clue that their codes were cracked.
I don't think many people on Slashdot particularly care if anyone engaged is terrorist activity is caught before an attack, or maybe at all. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people deny that there are terrorists at all, or that it is all a "false flag," or that there have been no arrests, and so forth despite the fact that information is readily available. I'll post a list of fairly recent arrests and I have little doubt the next time the discussion comes up it will be more of the same. Disclosing an intelligence operation's role in capturing a terrorist group wouldn't be likely to change that. To get any real attention a terrorist group will have to destroy a city with a nuke. Then there will be discussions back and forth until somebody points out that there was a year with a higher number of fatalities in automobile accidents, and it will be back to business as usual:"Terrorism? Meh. They aren't killing me." Or maybe the ever popular, "we can't give in to fear," as in: "Now that the terrorists have nukes, we can't give in to fear by doing anything about it."
Denver: Man Arrested for Providing Material Support to a Designated Foreign Terrorist Organization
Jamshid Muhtorov was arrested by members of the FBI’s Denver and Chicago Joint Terrorism Task Forces on a charge of providing and attempting to provide material support to the Islamic Jihad Union, a Pakistan-based designated foreign terrorist organization.
Baltimore: Man Pleads Guilty to Attempted Use of a Weapon of Mass Destruction in Plot to Attack Armed Forces Recruiting Center
U.S. citizen Antonio Martinez, aka Muhammad Hussain, pled guilty to attempted use of a weapon of mass destruction against federal property in connection with a scheme to attack an armed forces recruiting station in Catonsville, Maryland.
Washington Field: Man Pleads Guilty to Shootings at Pentagon, Other Military Buildings
Yonathan Melaku, of Alexandria, Virginia, pled guilty to damaging property and to firearms violations involving five separate shootings at military installations in northern Virginia between October and November 2010, and to attempting to damage veterans’ memorials at Arlington National Cemetery.
1.Tampa: Florida Resident Charged with Plotting to Bomb Locations in Tampa
A 25-year-old resident of Pinellas Park, Florida was charged in connection with an alleged plot to attack locations in Tampa with a vehicle bomb, assault rifle, and other explosives.
2.Baltimore: Former Army Solider Charged with Attempting to Provide Material Support to al Shabaab
A man who secretly converted to Islam days before he separated from the Army was charged with attempting to provide material support to al Shabaab, a foreign terrorist organization, and was arrested upon his return to Maryland after traveling to Africa.
Slashdot Mirror
Well, this is an interesting development.
If you haven't heard this, you might like it. Marc Martel - "Somebody To Love" audition
The Lesser of Two Weevils - Master and Commander
I don't want "it all". I just want our government to respect our rights and our Constitution. Is that too much to ask?
That depends on which Constitution you are referring to. If it is the one written as a founding document of the United States, as written, with a long period of interpretation and decisions in the courts, then that isn't too much to ask for. If it is the same constitution, ignoring the long history and results of jurisprudence, but with a strong added dose of common misunderstanding and possibly fortified with fringe theories, then that probably is too much to ask for. The only thing you are likely to get is the first, but many people desire something like the second.
At least with Swiss cheese you are on "firm ground," so to speak.
On the other hand, cream or cottage cheese make for lossy obscuration. Maybe better paper will help?
Here is your logical disconnect.
You acknowledge the existence of terrorists, their attacks, and their determination to attack in the future:
And? What of it? We all know this
From there you apparently don't see any reason that the intelligence agencies shouldn't be crippled, which means they will be unable to perform their function of providing intelligence to prevent attacks.
But why?
The practical result of crippling the intelligence agencies will almost certainly be more successful attacks in the future which can easily kill hundreds, or even thousands, of people per attack. I don't see how you aren't making that connection, or that you don't think it is a bad thing that should be prevented.
From there you to nonsense.
The only reason you've left us with is that you're extremely afraid of terrorists and are willing to throw anything and everything away if you believe it will help stop them.
I never stated any such thing in either case. It is more personal attack than argument.
So maybe you could explain to me why you think it is OK to allow terrorists to attack your fellow countrymen, and possibly you, unimpeded by the security services acting upon good intelligence?
You mean to tell me that not having a death wish is now treason... good call genius.
Based on the evidence of these posts, yes, apparently it is. Wanting to prevent terrorist attacks is apparently now considered treason in the West, at least among the Slashdot community. In the minds of those same people, it is by stealing data from intelligence agencies and making it available to America's adversaries that one becomes a "patriot." Moral confusion is rampant.
I still don't really see you making any counterarguments or providing any new facts. Its pretty much all personal attack. So I'll give you one more attempt. Where do I go wrong below? Where is the hyperbole, the straw men? The blinding fear? I understand that injecting actual facts on this subject is unpopular with many people.
Terrorists exist. They've conducted attacks in the past. They'll continue to attempt attacks in the future. A significant part of the reason the number of successful attacks has been limited is due to hard work by the security services, good intelligence, and civic minded people. Crippling the intelligence agencies is a bad idea. In the past, people that stole large amounts of classified documents from the intelligence agencies, fled the country, and took refuge in a communist country where they began making the documents available to America's adversaries have been considered and called spies and traitors. Below is a list of a few attacks and arrests of terrorists.
2013 Boston Marathon bombing 3 dead, 254 wounded. Fifteen victims suffered amputations, two of which had double amputations.
2010 Attempted bombing of Times Square in New York City by the Taliban - Attack failed, car bomb could have been mass casualty event.
2009 The "Underwear" bomber - Attack failed, potentially could have brought down aircraft with death of all aboard
2009 Fort Hood massacre - 13 dead, 30 wounded
FBI’s Top Ten News Stories for the Week Ending January 27, 2012
Denver: Man Arrested for Providing Material Support to a Designated Foreign Terrorist Organization
Jamshid Muhtorov was arrested by members of the FBI’s Denver and Chicago Joint Terrorism Task Forces on a charge of providing and attempting to provide material support to the Islamic Jihad Union, a Pakistan-based designated foreign terrorist organization.
Baltimore: Man Pleads Guilty to Attempted Use of a Weapon of Mass Destruction in Plot to Attack Armed Forces Recruiting Center
U.S. citizen Antonio Martinez, aka Muhammad Hussain, pled guilty to attempted use of a weapon of mass destruction against federal property in connection with a scheme to attack an armed forces recruiting station in Catonsville, Maryland.
Washington Field: Man Pleads Guilty to Shootings at Pentagon, Other Military Buildings
Yonathan Melaku, of Alexandria, Virginia, pled guilty to damaging property and to firearms violations involving five separate shootings at military installations in northern Virginia between October and November 2010, and to attempting to damage veterans’ memorials at Arlington National Cemetery.
FBI’s Top Ten News Stories for the Week Ending January 13, 2012
1.Tampa: Florida Resident Charged with Plotting to Bomb Locations in Tampa
A 25-year-old resident of Pinellas Park, Florida was charged in connection with an alleged plot to attack locations in Tampa with a vehicle bomb, assault rifle, and other explosives.
Although I appreciate the reference, and the joke, there is an issue.
Does your "anti-terror rock" have a list of arrests and convictions of terrorists? The FBI has one for terrorism. This is just a small sample.
FBI’s Top Ten News Stories for the Week Ending January 27, 2012
Denver: Man Arrested for Providing Material Support to a Designated Foreign Terrorist Organization
Jamshid Muhtorov was arrested by members of the FBI’s Denver and Chicago Joint Terrorism Task Forces on a charge of providing and attempting to provide material support to the Islamic Jihad Union, a Pakistan-based designated foreign terrorist organization.
Baltimore: Man Pleads Guilty to Attempted Use of a Weapon of Mass Destruction in Plot to Attack Armed Forces Recruiting Center
U.S. citizen Antonio Martinez, aka Muhammad Hussain, pled guilty to attempted use of a weapon of mass destruction against federal property in connection with a scheme to attack an armed forces recruiting station in Catonsville, Maryland.
Washington Field: Man Pleads Guilty to Shootings at Pentagon, Other Military Buildings
Yonathan Melaku, of Alexandria, Virginia, pled guilty to damaging property and to firearms violations involving five separate shootings at military installations in northern Virginia between October and November 2010, and to attempting to damage veterans’ memorials at Arlington National Cemetery.
FBI’s Top Ten News Stories for the Week Ending January 13, 2012
1.Tampa: Florida Resident Charged with Plotting to Bomb Locations in Tampa
A 25-year-old resident of Pinellas Park, Florida was charged in connection with an alleged plot to attack locations in Tampa with a vehicle bomb, assault rifle, and other explosives.
2.Baltimore: Former Army Solider Charged with Attempting to Provide Material Support to al Shabaab
A man who secretly converted to Islam days before he separated from the Army was charged with attempting to provide material support to al Shabaab, a foreign terrorist organization, and was arrested upon his return to Maryland after traveling to Africa.
FBI’s Top Ten News Stories for the Week Ending December 9, 2011
Seattle: Man Pleads Guilty in Plot to Attack Military Processing Center
A former Los Angeles man pled guilty in connection with the June 2011 plot to attack a military installation in Seattle.
FBI’s Top Ten News Stories for the Week Ending December 2, 2011
San Diego: Woman Guilty of Conspiring to Provide Material Support to al Shabaab
Nima Yusuf, 25, a resident of San Diego, pled guilty to conspiring to provide material support to al Shabaab, a foreign terrorist organization.
More here.
Um. What sort of patriotism caused the 9/11 attack? Because we know the damage created by those patriots.
The 9/11 hijackers were essentially patriots of the Islamic Caliphate that was dissolved in 1923 with the fall of the Ottoman Empire. They support its restoration as one of Al Qaida's goals. (Actually that is a wider goal of Islamists.) They also want to see all nations under Muslim rule, implementing Sharia law, and their people converted to Islam. Bin Laden's two big demands after 9/11 was that the United States convert to Islam, and implement Sharia law.
I'll agree that Turkey has some big problem that Russia doesn't. Turkey is in big trouble. At the moment I think Russia could turn out better, although there are some issues of concern. The fall of the Soviet Union was hard on Russia, and I fear the people are not truly free yet of the chains forged by Soviet rule. Hopefully both nations are moving in a good direction.
I take it then you will be working to dismantle the fire department and ambulance service in your community? After all, you personally have a minute chance of needing them this year, right? And you carry no insurance on your home, since that is a small risk? And no life or health insurance either I take it?
Get back to me when you have that done.
You should also probably stop looking both ways before you cross the street. After all, you don't want to give in to fear, do you? The same goes locking the door to your home at night, staying out of bad neighborhoods after dark, wearing blaze orange for hunting, having a reserve parachute, wearing your seatbelt, not drinking expired milk, not licking metal poles when its freezing, and not peeing on electric fences. It's all "fear based."
Part of the problem on Slashdot is that so many here seem to be incapable of understanding that you can undertake actions based on prudence rather than fear. That seems to be a major limitation in many people's thinking. That represents quite a fall from the founding of America when prudence was considered a major virtue. Apparently no more. The only motivation now is "fear." I think that shows in your post.
Approval is a process, not necessarily an outcome. Warrant requests can and have been denied. I doubt that the large number of federal judges that rotate through the court for a temporary term would agree to being "rubber stamps." I would expect that they would in fact continue to use the same federal standards for issuing warrants that they used before coming to, and after leaving, the FISA court. If they were agreeable to being "rubber stamps" while temporarily at the FISA court, it seems unlikely that they would stop being so once they go back to their home court, don't you think? But believe what you will. There are still people that believe the moon landings were faked, and that 9/11 was an inside job. The 9/11 "truthers" have been regular posters on Slashdot over the years. I expect that "nano-thermite" may have something in common with that missing substance you think the FISA court lacks. Have a great week.
Working with classified programs is always going to be difficult. That is why Congress needs to be fully engaged and performing oversight to make sure what is going on is reasonable while the US is at war with Al Qaida. From the picture that seems to be emerging, the operation provides valuable intelligence, the procedural safeguards limit the risk to meaningful privacy, and the operation is under the scrutiny of the FISA court made up of judges from other US Federal courts that rotate through. I think it is reasonable to be concerned, but not panicked. If you have concerns, write your Congressman.
Take care
Applying the logic in this thread, advocating that Americans have a reasonable defense against terrorism to prevent them from being killed in large numbers is now treason. On the other hand, patriotism is now stealing documents from American intelligence agencies instead of going to the Inspector General or Congress, making the documents available to America's adversaries where they may be used to bypass the defenses protecting Americans, fleeing the country to the "freedom" of Communist China, and maybe next to authoritarian Russia, and waiting for the outcome. And that outcome might very well be a successful terrorist attack causing mass casualties, or maybe even an attack by a rogue state such as Iran or North Korea. I think your civics lessons went off the rail at some point.
I do have a question for you. I see in your post that you consider Congress to be treacherous, which pretty much implies treasonous. From some of your other posts it appears you think the judiciary has Constitutional interpretation all wrong. And it goes without saying that President Obama must be wrong if the other two are. That means I'm being labeled a traitor by the rarest of geniuses who is right when everybody else is wrong about the Constitution, government in general, and the question of providing adequate protection from terrorists for ordinary Americans. With that sort of genius I would expect you to have something better to add to the discussion than name calling. Shouldn't someone of your rare gifts have either facts or clever arguments to add to the discussion? You've offered neither. Why?
I'm always happy to engage in reasoned debate with those that have good arguments, or consider facts that may prove me wrong. You have neither and so you rely upon ad hominem attack. What is even sadder is that you were moderated up for that nonsense.
I know little that you couldn't, but apparently much that you don't. And that is sad, really. But you aren't alone. So, here is what I'm talking about to help you along.
Attacks against Americans that were attempted and not intercepted, or completed (this excludes war zones):
2013 Boston Marathon bombing 3 dead, 254 wounded. Fifteen victims suffered amputations, two of which had double amputations.
2010 Attempted bombing of Times Square in New York City by the Taliban - Attack failed, car bomb could have been mass casualty event.
2009 The "Underwear" bomber - Attack failed, potentially could have brought down aircraft with death of all aboard
2009 Fort Hood massacre - 13 dead, 30 wounded
2001 9/11 attacks - 2,973 dead. Two skyscraper towers destroyed, heavy damage to Pentagon.
Estimated damage to US economy: ~ $100,000,000,000.
2000 Photo: USS Cole - Video USS Cole - 17 dead, 39 wounded, major damage to US Navy destroyer
1998 Bombing of US embassies in Tanzania and Kenya - 224 dead, est. 4,000 wounded, both embassies heavily damaged
1996 Bin Laden's Fatwa - Text of the fatwa, or declaration of war, by Osama bin Laden first published in Al Quds Al Arabi
Small, limited sample, of other terrorism arrests and trials in the US:
FBI’s Top Ten News Stories for the Week Ending January 27, 2012
FBI’s Top Ten News Stories for the Week Ending January 13, 2012
That may be, but they are both different debates. And it doesn't cover all the territory. Taxes, for example, and permitting. The government has those powers as well, but not my neighbor. The government many powers that people don't have.
For all those people that say there isn't any issue with any level of snooping if you don't have anything to hide, you are exactly who should be worried. The more data available to analyze, the more false positives will be identified. ..... It's guaranteed that some very unlucky and completely innocent people will be going through hell for a long time.
When people are directly communicating with terrorist groups there would seem to be little chance of a "false positive." At the least it would reasonably indicate the need for additional scrutiny. The problem might actually be the reverse, the false negative. Consider the case of Major Hasan. He was in direct contact with American cleric turned terrorist, Anwar al-Awlaki. That direct contact was looked at and written off. Major Hasan then went on to kill 13 people and wound 30 at Fort Hood. It now looks like his court martial defense will be that he was defending the Taliban and Islam. In other words, he is expected to make what is essentially an admission in open court that he is a terrorist. Changing that attack from its current classification of "workplace violence" to what it really is, a terrorist attack, will make that the first mass casualty attack since 9/11, and Boston the second.
The thing about false positives is that they are likely to resolve themselves over time with additional scrutiny. I doubt that many actually innocent Americans have gone through "hell" on the basis of what you list. Gag orders and national security letters are used for data sources. Stings are used in ordinary criminal investigations as well. If they are really innocent, why would they be trying to buy stinger missiles, for example? Indefinite detention has been used as part of the Law of War focused operations overseas, and is completely legal for Prisoners of War.
The Fort Hood attack resulted in 13 dead and 30 wounded.
The Boston bombing resulted in 3 dead, 254 wounded. Fifteen victims suffered amputations, two of which had double amputations.
I think it is fairly likely that the number of dead and wounded in those two attacks are likely to far exceed the number of genuinely innocent Americans that will go through hell due to a false positive.
Who will guarantee there will be no more attacks if nothing is done? What is the life of an innocent victim of terrorism worth?
That's partially correct. Americans are citizens, but they are always subject to attack.
A real patriot for which country? His last known location was the People's Republic of China. He has been invited to live in Russia by Putin. He is bringing with him a laptop full of stolen intelligence agency data.
Brass balls? No. More like chutzpah to claim it was for the good of Americans.
In the past, American patriots worked in the United States to make it stronger. Some of them were even war heroes. Not these new "patriots," they steal secret data from the intelligence agencies and make it available to America's adversaries. Some day this sort of "patriotism" may even lead to a successful attack on the United States, killing large numbers of people. Will it still be "patriotic" then?
One you missed:
"Tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the government but illegal for the citizenry." -- Thomas Jefferson
That doesn't really make any sense. I don't think any reasonable... make that any sane person would claim that individual citizens should be able to own nuclear weapons, nor for that matter arrest people and hold them for questioning. I'm not going to call that tyranny.
The "quote" is almost certainly apocryphal even if it is popular in certain political spheres.
Quotation: "Tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the government but illegal for the citizenry."
Variations: None known.
Earliest known appearance in print: No known appearances in print.[1]
Other attributions: None known.
Status: This quotation has not been found in any of the writings of Thomas Jefferson.
FISA is a court that deals in matters that are secret, not a secret court. The court itself is well known. The judges that preside are judges from other courts that rotate through it. The decisions can be cited, but they are often classified, so you would need a security clearance and a need to know to see them.
It is a court, not a tribunal. The one thing it doesn't do is conduct trials. Its purpose is to approve warrants and provide oversight.
Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court
Given your screen name, F. Ultra , it is a staggering irony that you believe that the US would disclose a highly successful Top Secret intelligence program at the first success, and possibly render it either ineffective or subject to counter-measures.
Ultra was one of the most closely guarded secrets of WW2 and aspects of it weren't declassified until the 1970s. Strenuous safeguards were in place to prevent the Germans from having even a clue that their codes were cracked.
I don't think many people on Slashdot particularly care if anyone engaged is terrorist activity is caught before an attack, or maybe at all. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people deny that there are terrorists at all, or that it is all a "false flag," or that there have been no arrests, and so forth despite the fact that information is readily available. I'll post a list of fairly recent arrests and I have little doubt the next time the discussion comes up it will be more of the same. Disclosing an intelligence operation's role in capturing a terrorist group wouldn't be likely to change that. To get any real attention a terrorist group will have to destroy a city with a nuke. Then there will be discussions back and forth until somebody points out that there was a year with a higher number of fatalities in automobile accidents, and it will be back to business as usual:"Terrorism? Meh. They aren't killing me." Or maybe the ever popular, "we can't give in to fear," as in: "Now that the terrorists have nukes, we can't give in to fear by doing anything about it."
FBI’s Top Ten News Stories for the Week Ending January 27, 2012
FBI’s Top Ten News Stories for the Week Ending January 13, 2012
FBI’s Top Ten News Stories for the Week Endin
House warming, certainly.
Global? Maybe.
What happened to global warming?
Curry: less warming than predicted. Models seem wrong
Power 6 is quite a bit more expensive per processor & system.
Power 6 is corporate, FX-9590 is power to the people.
Yes, they told the FBI. It was bungling by the FBI that probably let that attack through, not a plot by NSA. You help prove the point.
Now the FBI has to answer questions about why they ignored the warnings.