See the thing is you don't *know* anymore than the rest of us what happened.
Hmmm, I'm not sure that is true, at least in your case. I actually read from the police report, did you? I think you are going pretty far out on a limb to say the police weren't sure that they saw the FD treating Zimmerman on the scene.
Quit making up your own preferred version of the story.
I made a simple, factual statement. You are the one engaging in flights of fancy.
and if you pull a gun on me and start threatening me with it after clearly following me around the neighborhood I *may* attack you and start trying to pummel your head into the ground.
Instead of using the cell phone, which Martin had, to call the police for help? Of course I'm impressed in some way that you think you would be faster than a bullet if the gun was already out and pointed at you.
The 911 dispatcher told him the back off and let the real professionals handle it.
That is an established fact.
I think you have just established you aren't competent using many of the words in your statements. Lets review what was said,
Dispatcher: Which entrance is that he's heading towards? Zimmerman: The back entrance. Dispatches: Are you following him? Zimmerman: Yea Dispatcher: We don't need you to do that. Zimmerman: OK
So, is that a command to "back off" and "let the real professionals handle it" by the civilian dispatcher who has no authority? No So, is it an "established fact"? No
That's the way it should be when you kill somebody, you have to show us that it was right, not we have to show you were in the wrong.
Interesting - so, no more presumption of innocence until proven guilty? Under your scheme it is guilty until proven innocent? I doubt that many people will go along. If you think the legal system is open to abuse now, . . . .
One more thing, is this a standard that you plan to apply generally, or just in this case to nail Zimmerman? Somehow I doubt you want it generally applied.
Too bad the Soviets lost power, they could use people like you to fill the labor camps and gulags.
Most people are outraged by this event because up until a few hours ago THERE WOULD BE NO TRIAL.
Because THE INVESTIGATION WASN"T COMPLETE! One of the primary drawbacks of the American legal system is that it generally demands evidence for a conviction, and that takes an investigation. A small point, but it works in most people's favor. But if you want to start a new process of trial prior to investigation and evidence, go ahead, but you might meet some resistance.
Now, the wheels of justice are spinning, in large part due to public attention on this case.
Wrong again. If anything the public attention and pot stirring has made it more difficult to get at the facts. Threats, intimidation, and large racial grievance groups intervening dont' tend to improve the atmosphere for either the investigation or trial. How would you like to have to go to trial under a national spotlight of attention while thousands of people are demonstrating against you, and implying a threat of violence if you aren't convicted? How would you feel if people you knew were forced to go into hiding because a bounty was placed on your head and someone famous tweeted their address because they thought you were staying there? How would you like to have a bounty on your head because you are the "wrong" race? How would you like evidence in your favor to be concealed - perhaps out of some misplaced expectations of racial solidarity? It is amazing to me that you think this was in any way helpful to the cause of justice.
The fact that Zimmerman wasn't arrested is where the travesty lies.
The actual travesty is that you don't know what you are talking about but call for people to be arrested. They could have arrested him any time it was necessary, or when issued a warrant based on actual evidence of crime instead of vague feelings of injustice that nobody was arrested. The fact that he is now under arrest proves that point.
His innocence or guilt is in the hands of the court, which is where it belonged all along.
After the investigation, and after a prosecutor decides if there is good reason to believe an actual crime was committed, and that the evidence is strong enough to go to trial. Otherwise, it is a wasted gesture and blows the one opportunity you have to try someone for a crime under the law.
Defend yourself with deadly force? Yes, it should be.
The United States isn't Great Britain, Americans are allowed to defend themselves. No, it shouldn't be required to take potentially lethal damage to your body before you defend yourself with deadly force. Frankly, that goes beyond silly.
So if you pick a fight with someone and they punch you, you should be able to shoot them?
If it stops at that, generally no. But that isn't the claim here, and Zimmerman didn't pick a fight. Following someone isn't picking a fight. Here is a puzzler for you - if Martin was genuinely afraid, why didn't he simply call the police on his cell phone?
do we really want to escalate every single one to "killing in self defense"?
Since some American states have about 20 years of experience with concealed carry permits with firearms, and nearly every state now issues them, we can be quite certain that this isn't a problem worth worrying about.
It is documented in the police report that he was treated on the scene by the FD for bleeding from his nose and the back of his head despite your assertion to the contrary.
How many fucking Treyvon/Zimmerman articles do I have to read here?
None, if you stop clicking on the links. Odd that you are in this story when there are 14 other current stories, and links to 5 most talked about, and 5 "on this day" stories on the front page. You must want to be here.
Besides, what is this, the second one? On a story of national interest?
Or should we be checking your post for a secret clue to where you are being held captive and forced to read Slashdot against your will?
The CIA only -ahem- "freed" countries when it was economically advantageous to replace the established regime.
The CIA helped to support local peoples fighting to roll back Communism, such as in Poland and other places. Was that economically advantageous in any immediate sense? What about Korea? The CIA also assisted the Kurds resist Saddam. I think you've got some bad data there.
And are you really trying to argue that America is still a force of freedom in the world?
There is no need to argue the point - I would say that overall it is an established fact. Recent example: Iraq is now a democracy, has been runing it's own affairs for some years, asked American to withdraw its combat troops - and it did. Iraq has many challenges as a country, the ultimate of which is to keep their democracy which is a challenge for every such country. ( Iraqi news )
Clearly, you haven't had an American corporation step into your life and tell you how things are going to be from now.
I'm pretty sure that American corporations: 1 - Aren't the government. 2 - Aren't allowed to keep slaves and serfs
Your perception of the circumstance is about 50 years outdated, my friend.
You might be missing a few years of news and events.
Without a huge enemy, America has no choice but to bully.
Without a huge enemy, America cuts its defense spending drastically (as it did in the 90's after the Cold War ended) and tries to go about its business.
I think, my friend, that you would benefit from a wider range of news sources. Peace.
Sorry, but in the USA you don't have left and right. You have right and further-right. (On a world scale, anyway.)
Americans are often derided for their perceived or actual ignorance about the world, but this time it looks like the shoe is on the other foot. The United States does indeed have a genuine left, including hard core dedicated Communist movements. The difference is that in the United States most people tend towards the center to center right. They tend to shy away from the extremes so popular in Europe and other places.
World Responds . . . Virtually all of us are infested with CIA. What's the problem?
Could you be more specific? Is that the free world that the CIA helped keep free? Is that the freed world that the CIA helped free? Or the remainder of the Communist block and their allies that still threaten the worlds freedom and peace?
The real problem is that in the real-world, the police didn't bother to do anything but to take the shooter at his word that it was self-defense. You can bet your sorry ass that if a black watch volunteer would have killed a white kid, he would have been in prison post-haste.
You might want to be a bit more careful with the sweeping generalizations, or you could end up losing your ass.
So you're saying that we could once build an entire nuclear powerplant in 77 days and get it running within 9 hours... in an ice cave, in Greenland? If the people who did that could see us now, they'd insult our manhoods.
That's true. On the other hand, let them behold the power that the regulators and bureaucrats have achieved in the last 50 years and they would despair.
There is a small ray of hope. With any luck, "Project Basecamp" will suffer some setbacks from "Project Campfire" - the project aimed at showing the vulnerability of most people's living arrangements to catching fire and burning down. Many of the goals seem the same, as well as the mindset of the teams. Perhaps they should merge.
Look at theocratic tendencies in the US, and you'll see a similar dynamic, the younger you go, the less likely you are to see Americans who want to unify Church and State.
This is, of course, utter nonsense. There is no genuine meaningful support for any theocratic movement in the United States except in the fever swamps of the imagination on the left and among some deluded atheists. Unlike Christianity, unifying church and state is a central tenet of Islam. That is what the Caliphate was, until it was disestablished 90 years ago, and what Islamist extremists want to reestablish today.
Read Bin Laden's Letter to America. He demanded that Americans convert to Islam, and substitute Sharia law for the Constitution, or he would continue his war on America.
Does your wild speculation come with witnesses? There were witnesses that saw them struggling. Your speculation is also a bit off in that it only explains a blood covered nose, not both the front and back of his head bleeding from injuries, not to mention the reported broken nose that Zimmerman suffered. And, of course, the 9mm isn't exactly known as a hand cannon of the sort to flip one backwards. Other than that, great job!
Slashdot Mirror
Having a debate on "Stand your ground" isn't really going to work if you don't understand the issues.
More on the Irrelevance of 'Stand Your Ground' to the Trayvon Martin Case
I guess we've heard from Bizarro world now. Cute how you inverted most things.
See the thing is you don't *know* anymore than the rest of us what happened.
Hmmm, I'm not sure that is true, at least in your case. I actually read from the police report, did you? I think you are going pretty far out on a limb to say the police weren't sure that they saw the FD treating Zimmerman on the scene.
Quit making up your own preferred version of the story.
I made a simple, factual statement. You are the one engaging in flights of fancy.
and if you pull a gun on me and start threatening me with it after clearly following me around the neighborhood I *may* attack you and start trying to pummel your head into the ground.
Instead of using the cell phone, which Martin had, to call the police for help? Of course I'm impressed in some way that you think you would be faster than a bullet if the gun was already out and pointed at you.
Tell you what, why don't you get a few more facts under your belt? The call. Some interesting background.
The 911 dispatcher told him the back off and let the real professionals handle it.
That is an established fact.
I think you have just established you aren't competent using many of the words in your statements. Lets review what was said,
So, is that a command to "back off" and "let the real professionals handle it" by the civilian dispatcher who has no authority? No
So, is it an "established fact"? No
These "stand your ground" laws work both ways.
Snark masquerading as "established fact." Something that is more interesting:
More on the Irrelevance of 'Stand Your Ground' to the Trayvon Martin Case
Zimmerman saw Trayvon as a perp and Trayvon probably saw Zimmerman as a sexual predator.
Interesting take. If that is so, why didn't Marin call the police for help? Maybe some hints in the bottom half of this?
Trayvon Martin case heading towards the political abyss
That's the way it should be when you kill somebody, you have to show us that it was right, not we have to show you were in the wrong.
Interesting - so, no more presumption of innocence until proven guilty? Under your scheme it is guilty until proven innocent? I doubt that many people will go along. If you think the legal system is open to abuse now, . . . .
One more thing, is this a standard that you plan to apply generally, or just in this case to nail Zimmerman? Somehow I doubt you want it generally applied.
Too bad the Soviets lost power, they could use people like you to fill the labor camps and gulags.
Most people are outraged by this event because up until a few hours ago THERE WOULD BE NO TRIAL.
Because THE INVESTIGATION WASN"T COMPLETE! One of the primary drawbacks of the American legal system is that it generally demands evidence for a conviction, and that takes an investigation. A small point, but it works in most people's favor. But if you want to start a new process of trial prior to investigation and evidence, go ahead, but you might meet some resistance.
Now, the wheels of justice are spinning, in large part due to public attention on this case.
Wrong again. If anything the public attention and pot stirring has made it more difficult to get at the facts. Threats, intimidation, and large racial grievance groups intervening dont' tend to improve the atmosphere for either the investigation or trial. How would you like to have to go to trial under a national spotlight of attention while thousands of people are demonstrating against you, and implying a threat of violence if you aren't convicted? How would you feel if people you knew were forced to go into hiding because a bounty was placed on your head and someone famous tweeted their address because they thought you were staying there? How would you like to have a bounty on your head because you are the "wrong" race? How would you like evidence in your favor to be concealed - perhaps out of some misplaced expectations of racial solidarity? It is amazing to me that you think this was in any way helpful to the cause of justice.
The fact that Zimmerman wasn't arrested is where the travesty lies.
The actual travesty is that you don't know what you are talking about but call for people to be arrested. They could have arrested him any time it was necessary, or when issued a warrant based on actual evidence of crime instead of vague feelings of injustice that nobody was arrested. The fact that he is now under arrest proves that point.
His innocence or guilt is in the hands of the court, which is where it belonged all along.
After the investigation, and after a prosecutor decides if there is good reason to believe an actual crime was committed, and that the evidence is strong enough to go to trial. Otherwise, it is a wasted gesture and blows the one opportunity you have to try someone for a crime under the law.
Are you sure?
Defend yourself with deadly force? Yes, it should be.
The United States isn't Great Britain, Americans are allowed to defend themselves. No, it shouldn't be required to take potentially lethal damage to your body before you defend yourself with deadly force. Frankly, that goes beyond silly.
So if you pick a fight with someone and they punch you, you should be able to shoot them?
If it stops at that, generally no. But that isn't the claim here, and Zimmerman didn't pick a fight. Following someone isn't picking a fight. Here is a puzzler for you - if Martin was genuinely afraid, why didn't he simply call the police on his cell phone?
do we really want to escalate every single one to "killing in self defense"?
Since some American states have about 20 years of experience with concealed carry permits with firearms, and nearly every state now issues them, we can be quite certain that this isn't a problem worth worrying about.
It is documented in the police report that he was treated on the scene by the FD for bleeding from his nose and the back of his head despite your assertion to the contrary.
The police report states that Zimmerman was treated at the scene by the FD for bleeding from his nose and the back of his head.
Trayvon's mother, and father, may never think poorly of their son's behavior despite any evidence. It is a common failing among parents.
Don't get your hopes up, . . . he'll be back. He always comes back.
How many fucking Treyvon/Zimmerman articles do I have to read here?
None, if you stop clicking on the links. Odd that you are in this story when there are 14 other current stories, and links to 5 most talked about, and 5 "on this day" stories on the front page. You must want to be here.
Besides, what is this, the second one? On a story of national interest?
Or should we be checking your post for a secret clue to where you are being held captive and forced to read Slashdot against your will?
With that fair and balanced recitation of events you won't make it into the jury pool.
The CIA only -ahem- "freed" countries when it was economically advantageous to replace the established regime.
The CIA helped to support local peoples fighting to roll back Communism, such as in Poland and other places.
Was that economically advantageous in any immediate sense? What about Korea? The CIA also assisted the Kurds resist Saddam. I think you've got some bad data there.
And are you really trying to argue that America is still a force of freedom in the world?
There is no need to argue the point - I would say that overall it is an established fact. Recent example: Iraq is now a democracy, has been runing it's own affairs for some years, asked American to withdraw its combat troops - and it did. Iraq has many challenges as a country, the ultimate of which is to keep their democracy which is a challenge for every such country. ( Iraqi news )
Of course it isn't just freedom, or the CIA:
Navy sends 8 ships to provide tsunami relief (2011)
TSUNAMI DISASTER: Relief Effort (2005)
Clearly, you haven't had an American corporation step into your life and tell you how things are going to be from now.
I'm pretty sure that American corporations: 1 - Aren't the government. 2 - Aren't allowed to keep slaves and serfs
Your perception of the circumstance is about 50 years outdated, my friend.
You might be missing a few years of news and events.
Without a huge enemy, America has no choice but to bully.
Without a huge enemy, America cuts its defense spending drastically (as it did in the 90's after the Cold War ended) and tries to go about its business.
I think, my friend, that you would benefit from a wider range of news sources. Peace.
Sorry, but in the USA you don't have left and right. You have right and further-right. (On a world scale, anyway.)
Americans are often derided for their perceived or actual ignorance about the world, but this time it looks like the shoe is on the other foot. The United States does indeed have a genuine left, including hard core dedicated Communist movements. The difference is that in the United States most people tend towards the center to center right. They tend to shy away from the extremes so popular in Europe and other places.
Internationalist Socialists - AKA: Communists
Nationalist Socialists - AKA Nazis - far weaker than they were 60-70 years ago.
Fusion: American Nazi Party Endorses Occupy Wall Street‘s ’Courage,‘
Naked protests
Shying away from Communism is the smart and right thing to do . . . if you value your life.
Why Doesn't Communism Have as Bad a Name as Nazism?
World Responds . . . Virtually all of us are infested with CIA. What's the problem?
Could you be more specific? Is that the free world that the CIA helped keep free? Is that the freed world that the CIA helped free? Or the remainder of the Communist block and their allies that still threaten the worlds freedom and peace?
Try this instead, as it was the subject.
The real problem is that in the real-world, the police didn't bother to do anything but to take the shooter at his word that it was self-defense. You can bet your sorry ass that if a black watch volunteer would have killed a white kid, he would have been in prison post-haste.
You might want to be a bit more careful with the sweeping generalizations, or you could end up losing your ass.
The white preachers wouldn't need to jump into the fray because the black volunteer would have been arrested.
Are you sure?
Thomas Sowell writes for National Review and has many interesting things to say.
Magic Numbers in Politics
Politics vs. Economics
Politics vs. Reality
So you're saying that we could once build an entire nuclear powerplant in 77 days and get it running within 9 hours... in an ice cave, in Greenland? If the people who did that could see us now, they'd insult our manhoods.
That's true. On the other hand, let them behold the power that the regulators and bureaucrats have achieved in the last 50 years and they would despair.
- - -
Killing Owls to Save Owls
Environmentalists against the Environment
There is a small ray of hope. With any luck, "Project Basecamp" will suffer some setbacks from "Project Campfire" - the project aimed at showing the vulnerability of most people's living arrangements to catching fire and burning down. Many of the goals seem the same, as well as the mindset of the teams. Perhaps they should merge.
It looks to me like you've been successfully trolled.
Look at theocratic tendencies in the US, and you'll see a similar dynamic, the younger you go, the less likely you are to see Americans who want to unify Church and State.
This is, of course, utter nonsense. There is no genuine meaningful support for any theocratic movement in the United States except in the fever swamps of the imagination on the left and among some deluded atheists. Unlike Christianity, unifying church and state is a central tenet of Islam. That is what the Caliphate was, until it was disestablished 90 years ago, and what Islamist extremists want to reestablish today.
Read Bin Laden's Letter to America. He demanded that Americans convert to Islam, and substitute Sharia law for the Constitution, or he would continue his war on America.
Does your wild speculation come with witnesses? There were witnesses that saw them struggling. Your speculation is also a bit off in that it only explains a blood covered nose, not both the front and back of his head bleeding from injuries, not to mention the reported broken nose that Zimmerman suffered. And, of course, the 9mm isn't exactly known as a hand cannon of the sort to flip one backwards. Other than that, great job!