How can somebody be a shill for Linux? It's free. You might find a few fanboys but, shills? No. Microsoft, on the other hand has a history of paying people to shill their products.
I quite clearly refuted that point by point already. Re-quoting yourself just shows that you weren't able to comprehend what I wrote and therefore were unable to rebut it.
What are you talking about? You didn't refute anything. You responded to me pointing out that the documentation is better for java android development than for mono on android by talking about code reuse in C# as if that had anything to do with what I was saying. Code reuse doesn't help you with the platform specific api's and idiosyncracies like application lifecycle, bugs, etc. which are all explained and laid out for java.
Obviously using Mono doesn't mean you don't have to learn some platform-specific aspects, and no-one ever claimed that it did.
Exactly and the support and documentation for that on the java side is much more mature.
Those aren't tablet-specific, tablet is a form-factor, just as the 7" Galaxy tab is a tablet and doesn't need those APIs. Moreover if there is something unavailable in mono you can use the existing native implementation, but then that would be clear to you if you'd actually used mono.
The last refuge of someone who is backed into a corner and just arguing for the sake of it is to start throwing out technicalities. You know just as well as I do that I we referring to API levels 11 and 12, i.e., Honeycomb 3.0 and 3.1. Neither of which are available for monodroid. So, just like mono in the desktop world, mobile mono will always be behind. For a developer, watching the cool kids do cool stuff while you are stuck with second rate limited crap is no fun.
your willingness to evaluate a platform you've never used and complain about the constraints of modern mobile devices shows what i wrote is correct.
Sid, i.e., unstable is the bleeding edge rolling release. For historical reasons, it actually tends to break less than testing which is called Wheezy right now. While Squeeze is indeed the latest stable release, it is frozen and will only get security updates until Wheezy becomes the new stable thus repeating the cycle. Debian usually runs on an eighteen to twenty four month cycle but it's really an Id-esque "it's done when it's done" kind of release pattern. The bottom line is, if you want traditional rock solid Debian stability, you go with stable which right now is called Squeeze. If you want a still relatively stable system that is constantly updated, go for Sid bearing in mind that you can't just download a Sid CD. You have to get stable or testing and upgrade it. I hope I haven't been unclear.
FTFY, don't project your inadequacies onto everyone else.
Are you slow? Do I need to draw you a picture? Here, I'll quote myself. Read it out loud if you need to.
First of all, all of the developer documentation is written assuming java and Eclipse so you are hamstrung out of the gate using anything else. Secondly, for RAD, there is no drag and drop gui designer for monodroid, There are no tablet specific api's on monodroid so you are always going to be a step behind other developers. Worst of all, there is a performance penalty so by definition, there are some applications that can be written using java that will be too slow to deploy to users on monodroid.
Monodroid is not as advanced as the Java kit for android development. That is a monodroid inadequacy.
First of all, all of the developer documentation is written assuming java and Eclipse so you are hamstrung out of the gate using anything else.
So if you know C# and have developed functionality already you don't need to learn those java/eclipse aspects, you can leverage existing knowledge.
You imply that you have mobile development experience. Now, I doubt it. The mere fact of knowing the language does not make you an Android developer, be it C# or Java. You have to be familiar with the apis, the app lifecycle, the idiosyncracies of the platform. Best practices. All of that and more is documented in excruciating detail at http://www.developer.android.com/ and it assumes java. You don't get that for mono.
Tablet-specific APIs? What is it you need that you seem incapable of doing with scalable code? or is it that you aren't/can't do scalable code?
Making it more user friendly is sort of against the whole point. It's an interface designed for programatic manipulation, like XML for example.
That should only be true if I never have to access the registry at all. This story is about a configuration that can only be changed by editing the registry or clicking on a.reg file that directly manipulates said registry. Your point falls flat.
If it were possible for a collection of words to suck the IQ out of the room, we would all be slobbering out of the sides of our mouths right about now.
Oh please! I can make that into a little.reg file and go "See this thing? Go clicky clicky and reboot" and its done, period, the end.
How is you making a.reg file any different than me making a.sh file that somebody can click on and let the magic happen? Exactly, it isn't. Except that.reg file is a black box. My.sh file can easily be commented so the user can view it and understand what it does.
Just because YOU don't know how to make a.reg file doesn't mean the giant clusterfuck that is Linux CLI (seriously even OS fricking 2 has a solid API by now, having drivers break every time Torlvalds gets a bug up his ass is inexcusable) is in ANY way shape or form comparable.
This is little more than a shrill rage induced rant and has nothing to do with the first half of your paragraph.
I get can have a machine spend years without needing a SINGLE line of CLI, ever. Can YOU do that?
Yes, I have Linux machines that have run for years without needing a single cli command. My mother, god bless her, couldn't keep her XP machine virus free for more than a week. Finally, I got tired of it and installed Ubuntu. Haven't heard anything since except for how easy it is to use and how she raves about it to all of her friends. I haven't touched it other than to just observe it occasionally when I go visit.
Try this experiment if you think Linux is ready for the desktop: Remove ALL shells. C'mon, Linux is modular, yes? Then remove the shell or mod them down so you can NOT use them! I bet the machine won't even make 6 months, and you sure as hell won't be updating the thing, because without CLI Linux falls down like a house of cards.
How long will your Windows machine make it without the registry? Exactly.
Just face the fact that Linux is a SERVER OS, with millions being spent on SERVER tools, and the GUI is an afterthought at best. Sound breaks? Bash, Wireless fucks up? Bash. Video problems? Bash. Hell the answer to EVERY question in Linux is bash. Which is fine if you're an admin, CS grad, or geek with more time than money. For everyone else? News Flash: They ain't touched a CLI in 10 years and they sure as hell ain't about to start now. You show them a command prompt and they think "rinky dink Mickey Mouse OS" and frankly they are right. You should NEVER need CLI on a modern OS. The fact that Linux can't live without it just shows how far behind it is in the desktop arena. Embedded and server its great, desktop is shit.
So you sum up your several points that range from typical uninformed ignorance to outright lies with a conclusion that can only be based on said outright lies. Imagine that. You are a joke.
My issue with the registry is it's lack of comments and relatively non-intuitive naming scheme. Even gconf-editor in gnome which reminds me a lot of regedit has comments. When I want to configure something textually, I just go to my home directory in the file manager, and look around for a file that is named something similar to the program I want to configure excepting being preceded with a "dot", i.e., a dot file and that's it. Just edit that file. It will probably be liberally commented so it's really not that hard to figure out what you're doing. For system wide config, look in the/etc directory. Same deal just without the dots.
Linux was initially developed - and continues to be developed - by unemployed amateurs too
Yeah, I know right? Except, it's not. According to that credible report, 80 percent of the kernel comes to us via paid development. And why do you care anyway? The development environment for your precious monodroid doesn't run on Linux anyway.
clearly that's what you are implying given you seem to think that the 'big money', which comes from the end users (and advertisers), depends on the framework, which they know nothing about and has absolutely no impact on it whatsoever.
I'm not implying anything. I'll come out and say it. You cannot write apps in monodroid that are as good as apps that can be written in the real development kit nor can you write them as quickly. First of all, all of the developer documentation is written assuming java and Eclipse so you are hamstrung out of the gate using anything else. Secondly, for RAD, there is no drag and drop gui designer for monodroid, There are no tablet specific api's on monodroid so you are always going to be a step behind other developers. Worst of all, there is a performance penalty so by definition, there are some applications that can be written using java that will be too slow to deploy to users on monodroid. It's bad enough developing within the constraints of a mobile device in the first place, do you actually think I'm going to gimp it even more? Get real. At this point, I have to assume you monodroid people are all trolls out to confuse the development situation on Android to the benefit of competing platforms.
People, please restore my faith in humanity and mod this troll down. I don't care what you think about Google or Microsoft or any other company, this is pure astroturf and belongs in the basement.
I can see you're not one for innovation then. If the majority aren't doing it then you won't.
How is using a development environment that, at best, is a hack written and supported by unemployed amateurs "innovation"? The innovation is in the software I write and, I'm quite sure, I can write better software by sticking to the language officially sanctioned and proscribed by the developers of the operating system.
What are you on about? No end user even knows, much less cares if it's.Net or Dalvik, it makes no difference to them whatsoever.
I didn't say anything about what end users care about. I said the big money apps are all written sans mono. I'm here to get paid, not piddle around with some hack second class crap. I'll be more than happy to watch you do that. More money and users for me.
I'm talking about platforms other than smartphones. Not everybody has a smartphone because plans cost money
Well, obviously, Android comes on more than just smartphones. I just figured that went without saying.
You'd write the gross physics and enemies' action instructions to work identically on both platforms: a character can run this fast and jump this high, enemies deal this much damage, etc. (How much "dumbing down" does this require?) Then you'd probably write a separate graphics engine per platform.
As with the graphics, you'd write a separate input tier per platform. The input engine would interpret what the player has done and send movement commands to the game logic. An input engine for Android or WP7 would translate tilting the device, pressing on-screen buttons, tapping specific objects or areas of the screen, etc. into "turn this way" and "move that way" and "swing your stick". On Xbox 360, it'd translate movements of the Control Stick and button presses into actions. But the core game logic would implement the rules of the game that don't vary per platform. Please see Wikipedia's articles about the model-view-controller paradigm and multitier architecture.
Thank you for the links and thank you for going through the trouble to explain your point thoroughly. We obviously have a difference of opinion. I do not believe it is possible to create a really compelling game that works on xbox and android with mono that will compete with the best each platform has to offer respectively. There will be little corners here and there you will have to cut and when you're done, you may as well have just developed natively and been done with it. A good example is quake 3 (and this is pure example, my point does not hinge on it). A fantastic game in its day. It has been ported to Android (as well as everything else). Everything from the physics engine up was designed with a mouse and keyboard in mind and it shows. It's terrible on Android. Yeah, it looks great but that is the end of it. The onscreen controls are imprecise. It just doesn't feel right. Working on two completely disparate platforms like a console gaming device and a touchscreen cell phone is going to require ground up compromises and it's never going to feel quite "right" on either one. Or if it feels good on one, it won't on the other. This has happened to many games ported between PC and Playstation/XBox. Oblivion was terrible for this very reason.
So, yes, I...
want one game exclusive to Android and a completely unrelated game exclusive to Xbox 360.
What are you talking about? Android has the highest market share of any smartphone and shows no sign of slowing down.
If my game design includes a mode where multiple players share a screen, as opposed to always needing a separate device and copy of the game per player
So, you are saying I need to use mono to write Android games so that that same game can be run as split screen multi-player on xbox? What about when it is on the phone? First that doesn't even make sense and second, talk about the tail wagging the dog. And if I make a game that works on both platforms, which one do I gimp? The Xbox is obviously more powerful so do I dumb it down to a smartphone level? The phone has a touchscreen and myriad sensors like gps, accelerometer, ambient light, etc. How do I transate that? You have outlined a recipe for a crappy game. Plain and simple and I will have no part of it. At this point, I have to assume that you have run out of anything insightful to say and are arguing just for the sake of it.
I contend that not being on the same playing field as developers in the major cities is better than not having a playing field at all.
As I've illustrated, the Android "playing field" is plenty big.
It is not a "good thing" to have Windows API interoperability taken out of reach of OS/2 users. Interoperability layers such as Win16 allow OS/2 systems to participate in networks that are dominated by Windows. If it weren't for software like this, OS/2 systems may not be invited into some corporate networks, and would not get a seat at the table. The idea of a "pure" OS/2 or no OS/2 is going to continue having OS/2 sitting out in the cold all by itself. Interoperability is crucial. If anything, we need more software like integrated Windows API's, not less.
I've looked high and low. None of the top selling apps on Android are written in mono. All of the developer documentation for android is written assuming you will be using Java. If I run into any weird issues or bugs in Android, I'm going to be in a much better position to get help if I'm using the officially sanctioned development methods. The Android SDK is just going to enable me to write a better app. I'd rather write the best application my abilities will allow rather than hamstring myself worrying about getting it running on the Xbox. Not to mention the fact that on Xbox, I will never be on the same playing field as the real game developers. With Android, I am. And Windows Phone 7 doesn't have enough market share to matter and until it does, it isn't a factor.
When Google or Microsoft ports.Net over to Android, I may consider developing in it. Otherwise, there is no way I'm going to use a second class dev environment on my first choice platform. Here is a list of the top grossing games on Android:
Paradise Island
Bakery Story
Restaurant Story
iMobsters
Homerun Battle 3D
Gun Brothers
World War
What percentage of these games were written in mono?
I don't have a list for ad supported stuff like Angry Birds but the Roveo people said they were planning to make a million dollars a month from it. I don't think AB is written in.Net.
Despite what you say, the big money on Android does not appear to be in.Net so I think I'm making the right decision by sticking to Dalvik.
I'm not going to lie. I know nothing about C# other than the blindingly obvious, i.e., it is compiled bytecode designed to run in a virtual machine, it does automatic garbage collection, and it appears to be the premier platform for MS development. I'm pretty well versed in Python and Javascript and I've learned Java to code for Android. I really like Python and with Psycho, it runs plenty fast. And since the GUI widget toolkits like tk are compiled natively just exposing bindings to Python, the graphical presentation of applications doesn't feel slow at all (unlike Swing *ducks*). I kind of like Java too and development for Android is a breeze. Personally, I'd never use Java anywhere that Python would suffice but that is just because Python, at least to me, is so good, i.e., I think it and it almost writes itself. So, my question is this, what is so great about C# that people seem willing to practically move heaven and earth to shoehorn it in to every platform they can get their hands on. Why would I want to use mono when I can use Eclipse+Android SDK which is positively sweet. I don't get it.
Furthermore, if you don't like the Android model, you don't have to use an Android phone.
There are pros and cons to every model so at the end of it, you have to pick your poison. That's just another way of saying it.
Excuse me while I go spend $600 on a Nexus handset
Samsung: $199 on contract and $549 new. That's something like, oh, let me think, every other single phone on every US carrier in its class!
only to be required to still pay an exorbitant amount for a data plan
Hmmm... pay your $529 at T-Mo and knock ten dollars a month off of any plan because you brought your own phone. Damn if that doesn't bring the total price of phone and service over a two year contract to within a few dollars of what you would have paid had you gotten the phone for 200 dollars and paid the 10 bucks extra monthly for the contract. I think not having a contract for 2 years is worth the 30-40 dollars (give or take taxes, etc.) it comes out to.
To say that they are all compatible with every Android device is basically absurd
Whoa, what? I guess it's a good thing I didn't say that then. Of course all Android apps aren't compatible with all devices. Do you really think all Windows applications will work with this cell phone? What the GP was implying with his swipe about application incompatibility was that people (with the winphone device) will be able to use the apps they are used to, i.e., Windows desktop stuff. Which is a very dubious claim as the vast majority of that stuff is not going to be usable on a 4" 1024x600 screen. Furthermore, it's a 1.2 GHz Atom running at 600 MHz so performance is going to be abysmal. The point I was making was that for a 4" phone, what you have for Android is more than sufficient and if there is a need for more, then fire up Eclipse and get paid!
to say that the average user doesn't have to worry about incompatibility is only true if the user limits themselves to email, social media, and perhaps a few games.
I repeat, 600 MHz Atom. So you can probably forget the games and social media. Email, maybe.
At the same time, I am lucky if my Android powered phone from 6 months ago can run the latest version of the OS, not to even mention the apps, and the one app I really wanted (Netflix) is locked the **** out.
There are really only 2 official Android phones. Both of which run the latest versions of the OS. And both of which run Netflix. Furthermore, if you don't like the Android model, you don't have to use an Android phone. If an operating system is open to any and all to develop on then there are going to be efforts of varying quality. So, the consumer has to *gasp* educate themselves if they want a good buy. That's a small price to pay for the kind of innovation being seen in the Android ecosystem right now. Netflix picking and choosing what phones to support is their choice. I like that they have that choice. I also like that I had the choice to edit one text file (build.prop) on my OG Droid to make Netflix stream as beautifully as can be. Is that the recourse for everybody? Of course not. For everybody else, I would recommend whatever the latest Nexus model on the market happens to be as that's where the mainstream officially sanctioned Android action is.
The idea, I believe, is that it has enough processing power to be used as a main computing device
According to the spec sheet, it has a 1.2 GHz Atom that "always runs at half speed", i.e., 600 MHz. And by 600 MHz, I mean Atom 600 MHz. Not, for example, Core Solo. Bear in mind also, this is with Windows 7. Do you really think that's enough power to be used as anything more than a novelty?
People know and understand Windows, and don't have to learn arcane command line syntax or application imcompatibility.
The GP referenced Android. It doesn't even come with a way to get to the command line much less the need to learn any syntax. Considering it has the highest smartphone market share, I'd say there are millions and millions of people that "know and understand" it. Application incompatibility? There are 200,000 applications in the Android market and many outside of it. All of the staples anyone would need on a four inch screen device that you shove in your pocket are present and accounted for. And if it isn't? Well, that's just pure opportunity.
Slashdot Mirror
How can somebody be a shill for Linux? It's free. You might find a few fanboys but, shills? No. Microsoft, on the other hand has a history of paying people to shill their products.
I quite clearly refuted that point by point already. Re-quoting yourself just shows that you weren't able to comprehend what I wrote and therefore were unable to rebut it.
What are you talking about? You didn't refute anything. You responded to me pointing out that the documentation is better for java android development than for mono on android by talking about code reuse in C# as if that had anything to do with what I was saying. Code reuse doesn't help you with the platform specific api's and idiosyncracies like application lifecycle, bugs, etc. which are all explained and laid out for java.
Obviously using Mono doesn't mean you don't have to learn some platform-specific aspects, and no-one ever claimed that it did.
Exactly and the support and documentation for that on the java side is much more mature.
Those aren't tablet-specific, tablet is a form-factor, just as the 7" Galaxy tab is a tablet and doesn't need those APIs. Moreover if there is something unavailable in mono you can use the existing native implementation, but then that would be clear to you if you'd actually used mono.
The last refuge of someone who is backed into a corner and just arguing for the sake of it is to start throwing out technicalities. You know just as well as I do that I we referring to API levels 11 and 12, i.e., Honeycomb 3.0 and 3.1. Neither of which are available for monodroid. So, just like mono in the desktop world, mobile mono will always be behind. For a developer, watching the cool kids do cool stuff while you are stuck with second rate limited crap is no fun.
your willingness to evaluate a platform you've never used and complain about the constraints of modern mobile devices shows what i wrote is correct.
I did evaluate it and I found it lacking.
Sid, i.e., unstable is the bleeding edge rolling release. For historical reasons, it actually tends to break less than testing which is called Wheezy right now. While Squeeze is indeed the latest stable release, it is frozen and will only get security updates until Wheezy becomes the new stable thus repeating the cycle. Debian usually runs on an eighteen to twenty four month cycle but it's really an Id-esque "it's done when it's done" kind of release pattern. The bottom line is, if you want traditional rock solid Debian stability, you go with stable which right now is called Squeeze. If you want a still relatively stable system that is constantly updated, go for Sid bearing in mind that you can't just download a Sid CD. You have to get stable or testing and upgrade it. I hope I haven't been unclear.
FTFY, don't project your inadequacies onto everyone else.
Are you slow? Do I need to draw you a picture? Here, I'll quote myself. Read it out loud if you need to.
First of all, all of the developer documentation is written assuming java and Eclipse so you are hamstrung out of the gate using anything else. Secondly, for RAD, there is no drag and drop gui designer for monodroid, There are no tablet specific api's on monodroid so you are always going to be a step behind other developers. Worst of all, there is a performance penalty so by definition, there are some applications that can be written using java that will be too slow to deploy to users on monodroid.
Monodroid is not as advanced as the Java kit for android development. That is a monodroid inadequacy.
First of all, all of the developer documentation is written assuming java and Eclipse so you are hamstrung out of the gate using anything else.
So if you know C# and have developed functionality already you don't need to learn those java/eclipse aspects, you can leverage existing knowledge.
You imply that you have mobile development experience. Now, I doubt it. The mere fact of knowing the language does not make you an Android developer, be it C# or Java. You have to be familiar with the apis, the app lifecycle, the idiosyncracies of the platform. Best practices. All of that and more is documented in excruciating detail at http://www.developer.android.com/ and it assumes java. You don't get that for mono.
Tablet-specific APIs? What is it you need that you seem incapable of doing with scalable code? or is it that you aren't/can't do scalable code?
Really? And here's more. None of that is available with monodroid.
Welcome to software development, since you're new here
What's that you were saying about projection?
Making it more user friendly is sort of against the whole point. It's an interface designed for programatic manipulation, like XML for example.
That should only be true if I never have to access the registry at all. This story is about a configuration that can only be changed by editing the registry or clicking on a .reg file that directly manipulates said registry. Your point falls flat.
Oh please! I can make that into a little .reg file and go "See this thing? Go clicky clicky and reboot" and its done, period, the end.
How is you making a .reg file any different than me making a .sh file that somebody can click on and let the magic happen? Exactly, it isn't. Except that .reg file is a black box. My .sh file can easily be commented so the user can view it and understand what it does.
Just because YOU don't know how to make a .reg file doesn't mean the giant clusterfuck that is Linux CLI (seriously even OS fricking 2 has a solid API by now, having drivers break every time Torlvalds gets a bug up his ass is inexcusable) is in ANY way shape or form comparable.
This is little more than a shrill rage induced rant and has nothing to do with the first half of your paragraph.
I get can have a machine spend years without needing a SINGLE line of CLI, ever. Can YOU do that?
Yes, I have Linux machines that have run for years without needing a single cli command. My mother, god bless her, couldn't keep her XP machine virus free for more than a week. Finally, I got tired of it and installed Ubuntu. Haven't heard anything since except for how easy it is to use and how she raves about it to all of her friends. I haven't touched it other than to just observe it occasionally when I go visit.
Try this experiment if you think Linux is ready for the desktop: Remove ALL shells. C'mon, Linux is modular, yes? Then remove the shell or mod them down so you can NOT use them! I bet the machine won't even make 6 months, and you sure as hell won't be updating the thing, because without CLI Linux falls down like a house of cards.
How long will your Windows machine make it without the registry? Exactly.
Just face the fact that Linux is a SERVER OS, with millions being spent on SERVER tools, and the GUI is an afterthought at best. Sound breaks? Bash, Wireless fucks up? Bash. Video problems? Bash. Hell the answer to EVERY question in Linux is bash. Which is fine if you're an admin, CS grad, or geek with more time than money. For everyone else? News Flash: They ain't touched a CLI in 10 years and they sure as hell ain't about to start now. You show them a command prompt and they think "rinky dink Mickey Mouse OS" and frankly they are right. You should NEVER need CLI on a modern OS. The fact that Linux can't live without it just shows how far behind it is in the desktop arena. Embedded and server its great, desktop is shit.
So you sum up your several points that range from typical uninformed ignorance to outright lies with a conclusion that can only be based on said outright lies. Imagine that. You are a joke.
My issue with the registry is it's lack of comments and relatively non-intuitive naming scheme. Even gconf-editor in gnome which reminds me a lot of regedit has comments. When I want to configure something textually, I just go to my home directory in the file manager, and look around for a file that is named something similar to the program I want to configure excepting being preceded with a "dot", i.e., a dot file and that's it. Just edit that file. It will probably be liberally commented so it's really not that hard to figure out what you're doing. For system wide config, look in the /etc directory. Same deal just without the dots.
Linux was initially developed - and continues to be developed - by unemployed amateurs too
Yeah, I know right? Except, it's not. According to that credible report, 80 percent of the kernel comes to us via paid development. And why do you care anyway? The development environment for your precious monodroid doesn't run on Linux anyway.
clearly that's what you are implying given you seem to think that the 'big money', which comes from the end users (and advertisers), depends on the framework, which they know nothing about and has absolutely no impact on it whatsoever.
I'm not implying anything. I'll come out and say it. You cannot write apps in monodroid that are as good as apps that can be written in the real development kit nor can you write them as quickly. First of all, all of the developer documentation is written assuming java and Eclipse so you are hamstrung out of the gate using anything else. Secondly, for RAD, there is no drag and drop gui designer for monodroid, There are no tablet specific api's on monodroid so you are always going to be a step behind other developers. Worst of all, there is a performance penalty so by definition, there are some applications that can be written using java that will be too slow to deploy to users on monodroid. It's bad enough developing within the constraints of a mobile device in the first place, do you actually think I'm going to gimp it even more? Get real. At this point, I have to assume you monodroid people are all trolls out to confuse the development situation on Android to the benefit of competing platforms.
People, please restore my faith in humanity and mod this troll down. I don't care what you think about Google or Microsoft or any other company, this is pure astroturf and belongs in the basement.
Are you stupid? It works both ways. If I something gets "liked" on my computer, my friends will see it. That's what this entire thread is about.
I can see you're not one for innovation then. If the majority aren't doing it then you won't.
How is using a development environment that, at best, is a hack written and supported by unemployed amateurs "innovation"? The innovation is in the software I write and, I'm quite sure, I can write better software by sticking to the language officially sanctioned and proscribed by the developers of the operating system.
What are you on about? No end user even knows, much less cares if it's .Net or Dalvik, it makes no difference to them whatsoever.
I didn't say anything about what end users care about. I said the big money apps are all written sans mono. I'm here to get paid, not piddle around with some hack second class crap. I'll be more than happy to watch you do that. More money and users for me.
I'm talking about platforms other than smartphones. Not everybody has a smartphone because plans cost money
Well, obviously, Android comes on more than just smartphones. I just figured that went without saying.
You'd write the gross physics and enemies' action instructions to work identically on both platforms: a character can run this fast and jump this high, enemies deal this much damage, etc. (How much "dumbing down" does this require?) Then you'd probably write a separate graphics engine per platform.
As with the graphics, you'd write a separate input tier per platform. The input engine would interpret what the player has done and send movement commands to the game logic. An input engine for Android or WP7 would translate tilting the device, pressing on-screen buttons, tapping specific objects or areas of the screen, etc. into "turn this way" and "move that way" and "swing your stick". On Xbox 360, it'd translate movements of the Control Stick and button presses into actions. But the core game logic would implement the rules of the game that don't vary per platform. Please see Wikipedia's articles about the model-view-controller paradigm and multitier architecture.
Thank you for the links and thank you for going through the trouble to explain your point thoroughly. We obviously have a difference of opinion. I do not believe it is possible to create a really compelling game that works on xbox and android with mono that will compete with the best each platform has to offer respectively. There will be little corners here and there you will have to cut and when you're done, you may as well have just developed natively and been done with it. A good example is quake 3 (and this is pure example, my point does not hinge on it). A fantastic game in its day. It has been ported to Android (as well as everything else). Everything from the physics engine up was designed with a mouse and keyboard in mind and it shows. It's terrible on Android. Yeah, it looks great but that is the end of it. The onscreen controls are imprecise. It just doesn't feel right. Working on two completely disparate platforms like a console gaming device and a touchscreen cell phone is going to require ground up compromises and it's never going to feel quite "right" on either one. Or if it feels good on one, it won't on the other. This has happened to many games ported between PC and Playstation/XBox. Oblivion was terrible for this very reason.
So, yes, I...
want one game exclusive to Android and a completely unrelated game exclusive to Xbox 360.
And have no audience.
What are you talking about? Android has the highest market share of any smartphone and shows no sign of slowing down.
If my game design includes a mode where multiple players share a screen, as opposed to always needing a separate device and copy of the game per player
So, you are saying I need to use mono to write Android games so that that same game can be run as split screen multi-player on xbox? What about when it is on the phone? First that doesn't even make sense and second, talk about the tail wagging the dog. And if I make a game that works on both platforms, which one do I gimp? The Xbox is obviously more powerful so do I dumb it down to a smartphone level? The phone has a touchscreen and myriad sensors like gps, accelerometer, ambient light, etc. How do I transate that? You have outlined a recipe for a crappy game. Plain and simple and I will have no part of it. At this point, I have to assume that you have run out of anything insightful to say and are arguing just for the sake of it.
I contend that not being on the same playing field as developers in the major cities is better than not having a playing field at all.
As I've illustrated, the Android "playing field" is plenty big.
It is not a "good thing" to have Windows API interoperability taken out of reach of OS/2 users. Interoperability layers such as Win16 allow OS/2 systems to participate in networks that are dominated by Windows. If it weren't for software like this, OS/2 systems may not be invited into some corporate networks, and would not get a seat at the table. The idea of a "pure" OS/2 or no OS/2 is going to continue having OS/2 sitting out in the cold all by itself. Interoperability is crucial. If anything, we need more software like integrated Windows API's, not less.
There you go. I fixed it.
I've looked high and low. None of the top selling apps on Android are written in mono. All of the developer documentation for android is written assuming you will be using Java. If I run into any weird issues or bugs in Android, I'm going to be in a much better position to get help if I'm using the officially sanctioned development methods. The Android SDK is just going to enable me to write a better app. I'd rather write the best application my abilities will allow rather than hamstring myself worrying about getting it running on the Xbox. Not to mention the fact that on Xbox, I will never be on the same playing field as the real game developers. With Android, I am. And Windows Phone 7 doesn't have enough market share to matter and until it does, it isn't a factor.
What percentage of these games were written in mono?
I don't have a list for ad supported stuff like Angry Birds but the Roveo people said they were planning to make a million dollars a month from it. I don't think AB is written in .Net.
Despite what you say, the big money on Android does not appear to be in .Net so I think I'm making the right decision by sticking to Dalvik.
Please enlighten me, AC.
I'm not going to lie. I know nothing about C# other than the blindingly obvious, i.e., it is compiled bytecode designed to run in a virtual machine, it does automatic garbage collection, and it appears to be the premier platform for MS development. I'm pretty well versed in Python and Javascript and I've learned Java to code for Android. I really like Python and with Psycho, it runs plenty fast. And since the GUI widget toolkits like tk are compiled natively just exposing bindings to Python, the graphical presentation of applications doesn't feel slow at all (unlike Swing *ducks*). I kind of like Java too and development for Android is a breeze. Personally, I'd never use Java anywhere that Python would suffice but that is just because Python, at least to me, is so good, i.e., I think it and it almost writes itself. So, my question is this, what is so great about C# that people seem willing to practically move heaven and earth to shoehorn it in to every platform they can get their hands on. Why would I want to use mono when I can use Eclipse+Android SDK which is positively sweet. I don't get it.
Furthermore, if you don't like the Android model, you don't have to use an Android phone.
There are pros and cons to every model so at the end of it, you have to pick your poison. That's just another way of saying it.
Excuse me while I go spend $600 on a Nexus handset
Samsung: $199 on contract and $549 new. That's something like, oh, let me think, every other single phone on every US carrier in its class!
only to be required to still pay an exorbitant amount for a data plan
Hmmm... pay your $529 at T-Mo and knock ten dollars a month off of any plan because you brought your own phone. Damn if that doesn't bring the total price of phone and service over a two year contract to within a few dollars of what you would have paid had you gotten the phone for 200 dollars and paid the 10 bucks extra monthly for the contract. I think not having a contract for 2 years is worth the 30-40 dollars (give or take taxes, etc.) it comes out to.
Gee, isn't freedom great!
Sure is. Troll on, brother!
can we just take all of these social icons littering the web and sweep them into the trashcan?
And if noscript doesn't cut it (say they are start putting them in bog standard html), just try greasemonkey. Guaranteed or your money back!*
Not really.
I'm pretty sure the first PC was not calculating fractals in the background^H^H^H^H^H^H^H running Windows 7.
Here you go.
To say that they are all compatible with every Android device is basically absurd
Whoa, what? I guess it's a good thing I didn't say that then. Of course all Android apps aren't compatible with all devices. Do you really think all Windows applications will work with this cell phone? What the GP was implying with his swipe about application incompatibility was that people (with the winphone device) will be able to use the apps they are used to, i.e., Windows desktop stuff. Which is a very dubious claim as the vast majority of that stuff is not going to be usable on a 4" 1024x600 screen. Furthermore, it's a 1.2 GHz Atom running at 600 MHz so performance is going to be abysmal. The point I was making was that for a 4" phone, what you have for Android is more than sufficient and if there is a need for more, then fire up Eclipse and get paid!
to say that the average user doesn't have to worry about incompatibility is only true if the user limits themselves to email, social media, and perhaps a few games.
I repeat, 600 MHz Atom. So you can probably forget the games and social media. Email, maybe.
At the same time, I am lucky if my Android powered phone from 6 months ago can run the latest version of the OS, not to even mention the apps, and the one app I really wanted (Netflix) is locked the **** out.
There are really only 2 official Android phones. Both of which run the latest versions of the OS. And both of which run Netflix. Furthermore, if you don't like the Android model, you don't have to use an Android phone. If an operating system is open to any and all to develop on then there are going to be efforts of varying quality. So, the consumer has to *gasp* educate themselves if they want a good buy. That's a small price to pay for the kind of innovation being seen in the Android ecosystem right now. Netflix picking and choosing what phones to support is their choice. I like that they have that choice. I also like that I had the choice to edit one text file (build.prop) on my OG Droid to make Netflix stream as beautifully as can be. Is that the recourse for everybody? Of course not. For everybody else, I would recommend whatever the latest Nexus model on the market happens to be as that's where the mainstream officially sanctioned Android action is.
The idea, I believe, is that it has enough processing power to be used as a main computing device
According to the spec sheet, it has a 1.2 GHz Atom that "always runs at half speed", i.e., 600 MHz. And by 600 MHz, I mean Atom 600 MHz. Not, for example, Core Solo. Bear in mind also, this is with Windows 7. Do you really think that's enough power to be used as anything more than a novelty?
People know and understand Windows, and don't have to learn arcane command line syntax or application imcompatibility.
The GP referenced Android. It doesn't even come with a way to get to the command line much less the need to learn any syntax. Considering it has the highest smartphone market share, I'd say there are millions and millions of people that "know and understand" it. Application incompatibility? There are 200,000 applications in the Android market and many outside of it. All of the staples anyone would need on a four inch screen device that you shove in your pocket are present and accounted for. And if it isn't? Well, that's just pure opportunity.