War on poverty, while the US as one of the richest countries has a relatively large population of really poor people (compared to, say, western europe) and no improvement in sight?
Have you considered that maybe the very system that makes them very rich and advanced is also what creates a sub-population of really poor people?
The only difference with Germany is that the US has now actually more power to kill than every other nation combined, and that is why they don't get the same treatment, because in this story the US are the crazed bastards killing everybody in their way, but there's noone able to stop them.
Crazed Bastards - Check Killing Everybody in their way - Check Noone able to stop them - Check
So why don't they attack France and Germany now?
Why is it that they only attacked Iraq and Afghnistan? Two, brutally run regiemes which have been replaced with democracies? It doesn't look like they are attacking "everyone in their way". It looks they are only attacking dangers to the world and to the country's own people. You know, the idea of soveriegn countries has been used to ignore internal "wars" and justify complacency. When a country attacks another, the UN often intervenes but when an illigitimate government attacks and murders its own people, the world is mostly silent. When the US comes in (like in Kosovo and Somalia in the past) they are criticised of being imperialist but yet they always leave after they save tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands or millions.
Does the US interfere and save lives all the time? No. But doing things in your best interest doesn't make it wrong nor does it mean it isn't in the best interest of the other party.
Say what you will about the validity of the current governments in Iraq and Afghanistan but you can't deny that they are vastly better than the originals.
You talk about murder. How about the murder by Saddam? Is it unethical to go to war to save millions? Where was your outrage then?
The fact that you think the US is the most dangerous country in the world ATM shows a serious and dangerous misunderstanding of the world.
The War on Terror. Yep that's working: so far two countried fucked up
HOW DARE THEY remove Uncle Saddam's Utopia and the Uncle Osama's paradise and replace them with eeevil capatalistic and prosperous liberal democracies! They've ruin those countries just like they ruined Japan, Germany and South Korea (luckily Uncle Kim's Eden has thus far survived).
Yes, because everyone knows a half assed effort will always save more lives and bring better stability. I mean, America and Britain should just have negotiated with Germany in the 1940s. Bloody war mongerers.
Psst.... I don't know if you noticed or not, but Americans have no clue what "open, democratic elections" are.
Psst.... I don't know if you've noticed but you're an idiot. Why don't you go and start your own Taliban paradise? It's infinitely superior to the current Afghan government (US PUEPPETTTTERERT!! AHHH!!!).
The fact that you got midded up as "5 insightful" reveals the intellectual dishonesty and self-congratulatory wanking that that permuates through slashdot.
Oh my god! He just identified the US Government as the world's leading terror organisation! WANK WANK WANK WANK WANK. What a fucking legend. He's sooooo insightful; if only more people displayed his level of intellectual and moral superiority. WANK WANK WANK WANK WANK. Wait a minute, if I agree with him, that must mean i'm intellectually and morally superior too! WANK WANK WANK WANK WANK.
The War on Terror. Yep that's working: so far two countried fucked up and Iran's next
Hmm. Afghanistan 4 years ago: Taliban run, Alqueda haven, woman oppressed (some not even allowed to leave home).
Afghanistan today: Most of the people are feeling optimistic about their future after decades of war and oppression. First person to vote in the first ever democratic elections was a 19 year old woman.
Hmm...doesn't sound too fucked up to me. Oh wait, the US was responsible for it. Yep, Afghnistan is completley fucked up.
Did you actually watch it yourself or are your just paroting the conspiracy theorists?
If you watched Al Jazeera
as the US soliders assisted in draping the Stars and Stripes flag over Saddams head
That statement itself sounds suspicious. What I saw was a US soldier climbing up and putting the flag on saddam's head. It happened over a span of a few minutes after they managed to get a cable around his head and it was the soldier who did it; *independently*. The soldier didn't "assist" anyone and if it was staged I doubt they would have been foolish enough to instruct him to put the US flag up there only to replace it with an Iraqi flag.
Oh, and the picture in that link of yours shows the event well after the statue fell which is kind of all useless to prove their point. Ofcourse there were US tanks securing the area by that time!! It'd be like showing a picture of the fall of the berlin wall hours after it fell.
The residents started trying to fell the statue way, way before those vehicles rolled in.
The whole area was ringed off by tanks, so the Baghdad residents couldn't have joined in if they'd wanted to...
So who do you think those people are? Fallujah residents?
I watched the whole thing live on BBC and it was a long time (40 minutes) between when they started tyring to knock the statue down and when the tanks rolled into the square. The residents gathred in small numbers which grew. They tried to use a normal rope to pull it down as well as use some sort of axe thing to knock the podium down.
How about a link to the US military rather than a paper?
"Ultimately," the Los Angeles Times report concluded, "a Marine recovery vehicle toppled the statue with a chain, but the effort appeared to be Iraqi-inspired because the PSYOP team had managed to pack the vehicle with cheering Iraqi children."
The Iraqis were trying to topple the statue well, well before the american tanks came along.
They liked to live on the edge of annoying the establishment... they were the ones that broke the story of the statue of saddam hussen falling being a put-up job for the assembled press (there were only about half a dozen people there, there rest were reporters/press).
"Broke" the story? LOL. More like introduced a conspiracy theory. I watched the whole thing live and there were well more than "half a dozen" Iraqis there. IM's "proof" were pictures *after* the statue fell when most of the were busy dragging saddam's head down the street.
It's not surprising the US want to censor them... surprising they have the guts to do it so publicly though.
It might have something to do with the fact that they have a habit of not pulling illegal material from their site.
That guy: Switzerland is small and neutral! We're more like Germany: ambitious and misunderstood. Amy: Look, everyone wants to be like Germany, but do we really have the pure strength of will?
Thousands are also joining terrorist groups or fighting against the Americans. There are two sides to every story.
There are two sides but you have to look at the magnitudes. There are 100,000 in the new army alone. I don't think normal sane iraqis would go around blowing up iraqi children whose only crime is wanting to play football with american soldiers.
The chances of getting killed may be relatively small, but I didn't say the chances were large. I said that "peace of mind is worth more than money." The idea that you could be killed from a random car bomb or caught in the middle of a sudden battle would make many people very anxious.
I agree. You have to keep in mind that for most people, life goes on (and it's getting better). Israelis are stuck in the same situation, though it's not just car bombs, it's human bombs in night clubs and school buses.
There are all sorts of risks in life. You could get run over by a car or struck by lightning if you go outside but you upsides of being able to go outside outway the downsides. The Iraqis don't necessarily have a choice, but I think their view of the war (and indeed everyone's view) should be based on whether they believe there will be positives.
Even if Bush did do all this for OIL (I don't think he did), he isn't going to steal it. The US will BUY OIL and the money will go to improving the lives of Iraqis and not Saddam.
Could you be more specific than "freedom and prosperity"? What would they get?
Freedom of speech, freedom of movement, freedom to protest, freedom to choose government and all the other stuff people in the west take for granted. They will also get infrastructure built and ofcourse, US dollars. In short, they'll become 'successful' similar to post war japan and germany.
Will their society change? YES. Will it be bad? Well, it depends. They have the freedom to do what they want and that freedom includes responsbility. I don't think they're going to become "American" but they will probably embrace some American ideas (like Japan has) and the reverse will happen (America will embrace Iraqi ideas like they have Japanese). Cultures are always changing (look at America circa 1950 and America now) and often that change comes from outside influence -- and often for the better but not without sacrifices.
But to the average Iraqi? I'd say no. And no amount of "freedom and prosperity" is worth taking away your piece of mind. And I can imagine that with events like this [cnn.com] taking place daily in Iraq, peace of mind is worth more than money.
piece of mind? huh? kind of like how the afghans had peace of mind with the taliban? yes they have to sacrifice and persevere until the violence settles down.
The fact that thousands are joining the army, the police or working as civil workers just shows how commited they are to rebuilding their country. It may sound mean but Iraq is a big country with 20 million people and the chances of getting killed by a car bomb isn't as big as you make it out to be. They will get so much in return if they stick by it.
Anyway, get it from the horse's mouth. There are links to other Iraqi blogs from that blog.
Just because the person who produced the documents dislikes Bush doesn't mean that the Republican Party Special-ops could not have chosen him as an unwitting patsy
LOL. Then all those idiots deserve all they got for not noticing how they were obviously forgeries. They were typed up using MS WORD for fucks sake.
Slashdot Mirror
FYI, I do read. Good things take time.
War on poverty, while the US as one of the richest countries has a relatively large population of really poor people (compared to, say, western europe) and no improvement in sight?
Have you considered that maybe the very system that makes them very rich and advanced is also what creates a sub-population of really poor people?
Well fuck; even if that was true (and it's a big stretch) how does that make it wrong to get rid of the Taliban now?
The only difference with Germany is that the US has now actually more power to kill than every other nation combined, and that is why they don't get the same treatment, because in this story the US are the crazed bastards killing everybody in their way, but there's noone able to stop them.
Crazed Bastards - Check
Killing Everybody in their way - Check
Noone able to stop them - Check
So why don't they attack France and Germany now?
Why is it that they only attacked Iraq and Afghnistan? Two, brutally run regiemes which have been replaced with democracies? It doesn't look like they are attacking "everyone in their way". It looks they are only attacking dangers to the world and to the country's own people. You know, the idea of soveriegn countries has been used to ignore internal "wars" and justify complacency. When a country attacks another, the UN often intervenes but when an illigitimate government attacks and murders its own people, the world is mostly silent. When the US comes in (like in Kosovo and Somalia in the past) they are criticised of being imperialist but yet they always leave after they save tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands or millions.
Does the US interfere and save lives all the time? No. But doing things in your best interest doesn't make it wrong nor does it mean it isn't in the best interest of the other party.
Say what you will about the validity of the current governments in Iraq and Afghanistan but you can't deny that they are vastly better than the originals.
You talk about murder. How about the murder by Saddam? Is it unethical to go to war to save millions? Where was your outrage then?
The fact that you think the US is the most dangerous country in the world ATM shows a serious and dangerous misunderstanding of the world.
The War on Terror. Yep that's working: so far two countried fucked up
HOW DARE THEY remove Uncle Saddam's Utopia and the Uncle Osama's paradise and replace them with eeevil capatalistic and prosperous liberal democracies! They've ruin those countries just like they ruined Japan, Germany and South Korea (luckily Uncle Kim's Eden has thus far survived).
FUCKING TERRORISTS!
Yes, because everyone knows a half assed effort will always save more lives and bring better stability. I mean, America and Britain should just have negotiated with Germany in the 1940s. Bloody war mongerers.
Psst.... I don't know if you noticed or not, but Americans have no clue what "open, democratic elections" are.
Psst.... I don't know if you've noticed but you're an idiot. Why don't you go and start your own Taliban paradise? It's infinitely superior to the current Afghan government (US PUEPPETTTTERERT!! AHHH!!!).
The fact that you got midded up as "5 insightful" reveals the intellectual dishonesty and self-congratulatory wanking that that permuates through slashdot.
Oh my god! He just identified the US Government as the world's leading terror organisation! WANK WANK WANK WANK WANK. What a fucking legend. He's sooooo insightful; if only more people displayed his level of intellectual and moral superiority. WANK WANK WANK WANK WANK. Wait a minute, if I agree with him, that must mean i'm intellectually and morally superior too! WANK WANK WANK WANK WANK.
The War on Terror. Yep that's working: so far two countried fucked up and Iran's next
Hmm. Afghanistan 4 years ago: Taliban run, Alqueda haven, woman oppressed (some not even allowed to leave home).
Afghanistan today: Most of the people are feeling optimistic about their future after decades of war and oppression. First person to vote in the first ever democratic elections was a 19 year old woman.
Hmm...doesn't sound too fucked up to me. Oh wait, the US was responsible for it. Yep, Afghnistan is completley fucked up.
Did you actually watch it yourself or are your just paroting the conspiracy theorists?
If you watched Al Jazeera
as the US soliders assisted in draping the Stars and Stripes flag over Saddams head
That statement itself sounds suspicious. What I saw was a US soldier climbing up and putting the flag on saddam's head. It happened over a span of a few minutes after they managed to get a cable around his head and it was the soldier who did it; *independently*. The soldier didn't "assist" anyone and if it was staged I doubt they would have been foolish enough to instruct him to put the US flag up there only to replace it with an Iraqi flag.
On Fox News, perhaps?
Oh clever. Try to discredit me and FOX news in one swipe. FYI, it was live on BBC.
Oh, and the picture in that link of yours shows the event well after the statue fell which is kind of all useless to prove their point. Ofcourse there were US tanks securing the area by that time!! It'd be like showing a picture of the fall of the berlin wall hours after it fell.
The residents started trying to fell the statue way, way before those vehicles rolled in.
The whole area was ringed off by tanks, so the Baghdad residents couldn't have joined in if they'd wanted to...
So who do you think those people are? Fallujah residents?
I watched the whole thing live on BBC and it was a long time (40 minutes) between when they started tyring to knock the statue down and when the tanks rolled into the square. The residents gathred in small numbers which grew. They tried to use a normal rope to pull it down as well as use some sort of axe thing to knock the podium down.
The US government is way too involved in influencing public opinion, something they ought not to at all.
Right...cause all of indymedia's sites are down, all indymedia members have been silenced and this slashdot story has been supressed.
If anything, their actions have influced public opinion against them.
I see more than "half a dozen" people here and here and here
A simple search on google images shows the truth.
The "Indymedia" story was a load of bollocks by people who didn't even see the statue come down.
How about a link to the US military rather than a paper?
"Ultimately," the Los Angeles Times report concluded, "a Marine recovery vehicle toppled the statue with a chain, but the effort appeared to be Iraqi-inspired because the PSYOP team had managed to pack the vehicle with cheering Iraqi children."
The Iraqis were trying to topple the statue well, well before the american tanks came along.
Keep America divided, poor and uneducated while we rape and pillage workers' rights, the environment and womens' rights. Bush/Cheney 04
You forget to add: "in a fashion reminiscent of 'jinjis' kahn"
Yep that's right dude! You'd better run to Canada cause Bushitler stormtroopers are coming to arrest you this very minute!
idiot
I bet you'd be the first to support anti-baortion sites that list abortion doctors' personal details too eh?
They liked to live on the edge of annoying the establishment... they were the ones that broke the story of the statue of saddam hussen falling being a put-up job for the assembled press (there were only about half a dozen people there, there rest were reporters/press).
"Broke" the story? LOL. More like introduced a conspiracy theory. I watched the whole thing live and there were well more than "half a dozen" Iraqis there. IM's "proof" were pictures *after* the statue fell when most of the were busy dragging saddam's head down the street.
It's not surprising the US want to censor them... surprising they have the guts to do it so publicly though.
It might have something to do with the fact that they have a habit of not pulling illegal material from their site.
No, Europeans don't believe in neutral
What about the Swiss?
That guy: Switzerland is small and neutral! We're more like Germany: ambitious and misunderstood.
Amy: Look, everyone wants to be like Germany, but do we really have the pure strength of will?
If civil war erupts (Significant risk according to the latest National Intelligence Estimate)
No, Civil war was their worse case scenario. And they said the whole report was "pessimistic". I'd hardly call that a significant risk.
Thousands are also joining terrorist groups or fighting against the Americans. There are two sides to every story.
There are two sides but you have to look at the magnitudes. There are 100,000 in the new army alone. I don't think normal sane iraqis would go around blowing up iraqi children whose only crime is wanting to play football with american soldiers.
The chances of getting killed may be relatively small, but I didn't say the chances were large. I said that "peace of mind is worth more than money." The idea that you could be killed from a random car bomb or caught in the middle of a sudden battle would make many people very anxious.
I agree. You have to keep in mind that for most people, life goes on (and it's getting better). Israelis are stuck in the same situation, though it's not just car bombs, it's human bombs in night clubs and school buses.
There are all sorts of risks in life. You could get run over by a car or struck by lightning if you go outside but you upsides of being able to go outside outway the downsides. The Iraqis don't necessarily have a choice, but I think their view of the war (and indeed everyone's view) should be based on whether they believe there will be positives.
Even if Bush did do all this for OIL (I don't think he did), he isn't going to steal it. The US will BUY OIL and the money will go to improving the lives of Iraqis and not Saddam.
Could you be more specific than "freedom and prosperity"? What would they get?
Freedom of speech, freedom of movement, freedom to protest, freedom to choose government and all the other stuff people in the west take for granted. They will also get infrastructure built and ofcourse, US dollars. In short, they'll become 'successful' similar to post war japan and germany.
Will their society change? YES. Will it be bad? Well, it depends. They have the freedom to do what they want and that freedom includes responsbility. I don't think they're going to become "American" but they will probably embrace some American ideas (like Japan has) and the reverse will happen (America will embrace Iraqi ideas like they have Japanese). Cultures are always changing (look at America circa 1950 and America now) and often that change comes from outside influence -- and often for the better but not without sacrifices.
Here's a few more positive links:
Able Kane
Spirit Of America
But to the average Iraqi? I'd say no. And no amount of "freedom and prosperity" is worth taking away your piece of mind. And I can imagine that with events like this [cnn.com] taking place daily in Iraq, peace of mind is worth more than money.
piece of mind? huh? kind of like how the afghans had peace of mind with the taliban? yes they have to sacrifice and persevere until the violence settles down.
The fact that thousands are joining the army, the police or working as civil workers just shows how commited they are to rebuilding their country. It may sound mean but Iraq is a big country with 20 million people and the chances of getting killed by a car bomb isn't as big as you make it out to be. They will get so much in return if they stick by it.
Anyway, get it from the horse's mouth. There are links to other Iraqi blogs from that blog.
Yes. If it was DNC dirty tricks then it wouldn't matter. Democrats are allowed to get away with such things; it's written in the constitution!
Just because the person who produced the documents dislikes Bush doesn't mean that the Republican Party Special-ops could not have chosen him as an unwitting patsy
LOL. Then all those idiots deserve all they got for not noticing how they were obviously forgeries. They were typed up using MS WORD for fucks sake.