Slashdot Mirror
Indymedia Server Raided by FBI
jaromil writes "Today at about 18:00 CET FBI raided the indymedia servers hosted by Rackspace both in US and England. At present, the italian indymedia and numerous other local IMC websites are obscured, while the reasons why the hard drives were taken are still unknown."
The NYC Indymedia site is still up and has coverage of their own downtime.
Nobody's exactly sure why or how the FBI got warrants to take Indymedia's HDs, but their speculation tends to center around the fact that the Feds were spooked by the fact that Indymedia was able to publish RNC delegate names. This unfortuantely means political motivations are going to be questioned no matter what reasoning is brought forward.
Not much we can do at this hour but hold our breath and wait for more info to be released.
Suspicious indeed....Possibly linked to RNC delegate identification? See this link from the Pittsburgh Post Gazette
3 .php
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04264/382137.stm
This in from Argentina Indymedia, which has a different view -
FBI took the hard drives of IMC servers in the UK
por Mat ((!)) Thursday October 07, 2004 at 06:10 PM
-
The US authorities issued a subpoena to Rackspace's office in the US ordering them to physically remove Indymedia hardware located in London. Rackspace is one of Indymedia's web hosting providers with offices in the US and London. Rackspace complied and turned over Indymedia's hard drives/servers in the UK. This affects some 20+ Indymedia sites worldwide.
Since the subpoena was issued to Rackspace and not to Indymedia, the reasons for this action are still unknown to Indymedia.
At the same time a second server was taken down at Rackspace which provided streaming radio to several radio stations, BLAG (linux distro), and a handful of miscellanous things.
The last few months have seen numerous attacks on independent media by the US Federal Government. In August the Secret Service used a subpoena in an attempt to disrupt the NYC IMC before the RNC by trying to get IP logs from an ISP in the US and the Netherlands, last month the FCC shut down comunity radio stations around the US, and now the FBI is shutting down IMCs around the world.
The list of affected local media collectives includes Ambazonia, Uruguay, Andorra, Poland, Western Massachusetts, Nice, Nantes, Lilles, Marseille (all France), Euskal Herria (Basque Country), Liege, East and West Vlaanderen, Antwerpen (all Belgium), Belgrade, Portugal, Prague, Galiza, Italy, Brazil, part of the Germany site, UK Radio, and the global Indymedia Radio site.
Micah Anderson of the global imc-tech collective said, "We suspect it has to do with an FBI request that we take down a post on the Nantes IMC that had a photo of some undercover Swiss police. They claimed there was threats and personal information, but there was nothing of the sort. The undercover police that were photographed on the page were photographing protesters. Rackspace is a US company, but have colocation in the UK where these servers are (err, were) located. So this is about Swiss police, on a French site, on a server in England, taken away by American federal police."
However, according to information from IMC Nantes the pictures in question were already removed a week ago.
Link to Argentina Indymedia
http://argentina.indymedia.org/news/2004/10/22769
and one more to NYC Indymedia, which is still up
http://nyc.indymedia.org/
My MythTV HowTo
I read the article and even googled a bit but I can't come up with even a guess concerning why the FBI made off with their hard drives. A translation of the blurb on their site indicates that they have a server in reserve that they are trying to bring up but they have lost, obviously, all of their content.
http://www.busyweather.com/
Who the heck is indymedia?
---
ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
I guess that's what Rackspace means by Fanatical Support(TM)
...but I thought the servers were RAIDed already?
Alcohol and Calculus don't mix. Don't drink and derive.
... Nobody's exactly sure why or how the FBI got warrants to take Indymedia's HDs, but their speculation tends to center around the fact that the Feds were spooked by the fact that Indymedia was able to publish RNC delegate names.
Yeah that freedom of speech thing is a real pain, isn't it?
The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
Because it wasn't "some website raided by the FBI". It was an independant media source that was taken down by the FBI for reasons unknown....
The regular media doesn't get taken down so easily...Sounds suspicous....Politically motivated? Possibly...
But kiddy porn ring, no....
My MythTV HowTo
The Independent Media Center, also called Indymedia or the IMC, is a network of media organizations and journalists. It was started in late November, 1999, to cover the protests of the anti-globalization movement against the World Trade Organization in Seattle, Washington. By 2002, there were 89 local IMCs around the world spread between 31 countries plus the West Bank and 6 continents. The country with the most IMCs is the United States with 39, followed by Canada with 11.
(Source: Wikipedia.org. Released under the GFDL. See article)
Grr! Arg!
If you can't read, odds are good that censorship will never be that big a deal to you.
Mike Hoye
Your signature is particularly ironic in light of this news.
The fact that an "independent" (as in not company-owned) news resource was forced offline and its equipment seized *is* the newsworthy information.
Its a liberal political/activism (not in the hacktivism type sense) that seems to be targeted for takedown by the current administration. Thats why. Try not to piss off the man.
Indymedia goes down in an FBI raid and the best /. can muster are a bunch of asshat trolls who have their heads so far buried in the sand they don't even know what indymedia.org *is*.
It's intellectual porn. Damn those free-thinkers trying to get news from an independent media source!
Press Release
7 October 2004
FBI Seizes IMC Servers in the UK
US authorities issued a federal order to Rackspace's office in the US ordering them to provide Indymedia's hardware located in London to the requesting agency. Rackspace is one of Indymedia's web hosting providers with offices in the US and London. Rackspace complied, without first notifying Indymedia, and turned over Indymedia's server in the UK. This affects some 20+ Indymedia sites worldwide.
Since the subpoena was issued to Rackspace and not to Indymedia, the reasons for this action are still unknown to Indymedia. Talking to Indymedia volunteers, Rackspace stated that "they cannot provide Indymedia with any information regarding the order." ISPs have received gag orders in similar situations which prevent them from updating the concerns parits on what is happening.
It is unclear to Indymedia how and why a server that is outside the US jurisdiction can be seized by US authorities.
At the same time a second server was taken down at Rackspace which provided streaming radio to several radio stations, BLAG (linux distro), and a handful of miscellanous things.
The last few months have seen numerous attacks on independent media by the US Federal Government. In August the Secret Service used a subpoena in an attempt to disrupt the NYC IMC before the RNC by trying to get IP logs from an ISP in the US and the Netherlands. Last month the FCC shut down community radio stations around the US. Two weeks ago the FBI requested that Indymedia takes down a post on the Nantes IMC that had a photo of some undercover Swiss police and IMC volunteers in Seattle were visited by the FBI on the same issue. On the other hand, Indymedia and other independent media organisations have been successful with their victories (thanks to the EFF), for example against Diebold and the Patroit Act. Today however, the US authorities shut down IMCs around the world.
The list of affected local media collectives includes Ambazonia, Uruguay, Andorra, Poland, Western Massachusetts, Nice, Nantes, Lilles, Marseille (all France), Euskal Herria (Basque Country), Liege, East and West Vlaanderen, Antwerpen (all Belgium), Belgrade, Portugal, Prague, Galiza, Italy, Brazil, UK, part of the Germany site, and the global Indymedia Radio site.
The regular media doesn't get taken down so easily
Today's moral of the story is to keep offsite backups...
obody's exactly sure why or how the FBI got warrants to take Indymedia's HDs, but their speculation tends to center around the fact that the Feds were spooked by the fact that Indymedia was able to publish RNC delegate names.
Another theory is around some pictures of undercover Swiss police (photographing protesters) that were posted on an IMC site (IMC Nantes) - Indymedia got a request to remove 'identifying information' from the site (apparently the FBI got involved 'as a courtesy' to the Swiss authorities). Since there were no identifying details, Indymedia didn't do anything in response.
It would seem strange for an American agency to get a warrant to seize information relating to Swiss undefcover police from a French website, but it's the most solid theory I've heard so far.
Those sites were run by anti-american leftist liberals. The FBI needs to crack down on ANY and ALL leftist web sites that spread pro-terrorist, anti-american messages all over. We need more action, not more talk. Go FBI!
... just needed hard drives, Government budgets are tight.
Not everything is a conspiracy.
Well consider the following, Immeadiately following the Protest Warrior Hack somebody posted that list to an IndyMedia server. That list stayed up for Three Unmolested Days. Whereas any other controverial (to the Left) information was deleted in Five Minutes. 3 Days versus 5 Minutes. That doesn't look very good in my eyes as for the partiality of IMC.
Your hair look like poop, Bob! - Wanker.
Actually, according to nyc.indymedia.com, the request originated from the Swiss police.
And according to another article, they recently published a bunch of photos identifying undercover swiss policemen. It starts to make sense, I have no idea what Swiss laws against exposing undercover law enforcement agents say.
But I guess the knee-jerk "It's a Bush comsperacie!" crap is appropriate for slashdot.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
The fact that an "independent" (as in not company-owned) news resource was forced offline and its equipment seized *is* the newsworthy information.
Not necessarily. It could be that the admin of the box nocked off his crack dealer so he did not have to pay him what he owed him. Nothing too interesting with that.
There is simply no information to go on here.
Given that Rackspace seemed reasonably communicative about the Swiss Secret Service issue, I wonder if the "no comment" implies some invocation of the Patriot Act.
Rackspace was given no time to defend against the order before it was acted upon and turned over the hard drives from the nyc imc server
now i'm no legal expert, but i was under the distinct impression that, with a few exceptions like threatening the president, you were innocent until proven guilty and had the right to defend yourself. have i missed something?
also by law aren't federal agents, any agents for that matter, required to show the warrant? so *some*body must know what's going on, right?
The only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it.
-Oscar Wilde
has more information, they suspect it is related to the posting of pictures of undercover police officers. Oddly enough the officers were photographing protesters.
Was there ever anything here?
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
I realise that if it just happened there may not be a huge amount of information available yet, but surely you could link to something a little better than well...nothing.
And I have to question what little info you have given... after all, I'm pretty sure the FBI (an AMERICAN organization) can't directly raid a rackspace location in ENGLAND... don't they have to arrange with their friends in the relevant British agencies to do something like that?
My supposition is the following:
Diebold threatened the italian indymedia website, along with other
IMC hosted there, one year ago, for hosting documents discussing
the numerous scandals about their voting system.
This case was taken up by the EFF and they WON in court.
Now, just before the elections in USA, Diebold is coming back
under cover to strike back.
Of course they will never declare Diebold is behind all this.
Then who would be next, slashdot? just search "Diebold" in the archives if you
don't remember well wassup...
of course, just my 2 cents
Indymedia is a grassroots independent media organisation, aimed at bypassing the corporate media's slant on the world. As such it comes from a fairly radical political perspective, and an attack on it by the authorites should be seen in those terms, and as part of the wider attack on free speech and civil liberties that has been happening in recent years.
:)
And no, it doesn't host kiddie (or any other kind of) pr0n
Blaming the RNC sounds like something a rabid anti-bush website would do.
But, TFA that I read on nyc.indymedia.com has a quote from Rackspace saying the request came from Swiss authorities.
I read elsewhere that they got in some shit for publishing photos and identities of undercover swiss cops.
I'm sure they know what they did, but they won't say anything so long as they can lead everyone to believe it's "evil Bush" behind it all.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
This event will legitimize IndyMedia in a way that none of their reporting ever has.
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts
IndyMedia doesn't claim to be unbiased... the site admits that it leans left.
Umm....can someone please remind me how this is the greatest and most free country in the world?
(No fair modding me down based on your warped "political" leanings...).
eat shiat and bark at the moon
If you doubt the partisan nature of the F.B.I., please read
Reagan, Hoover, and the U.C. Red Scare.
J. Edgar Hoover was a nut.
Seditously as always,
Kilgore Trout
i mean if they published names is that really wrong? its a public event, its on telly so by default you could be recognised in the audience, by going you agree your privacy is compromised in some way, your details will probably go onto some list of people to call back.
if you stood outside the entrance, took photos of the people going in and published them, would that be the same thing? if its a public place whats the problem?
has there been intimidation? or is this just fear because its the republicans in power?
there are plenty if privacy concerns just by being a voter, your details are available to be seen locally (speaking as a UK citizen myself). and if you don't tick the right box then hell its available to anybody who wants it, anywhere, possibly for cross referencing with the phone book so burglars can find your phone number if if looks like you are out. well having a pretty rare name and being involved in something where a lot of people know i've got a load of expensive gear - i don't register to vote. I know people who have been repeatedly hit and vanloads of equipment nicked.
as another point, really is there any need to go? its on the telly. like all political conferances its just preaching to the converted and you are just there to applaud on cue to make the pictures look good.
Well, somebody is going to find anything that the FBI does to be politically motivated.
http://www.busyweather.com/
Don't do kiddie-porn and Kazaa at work!
Another one bites the
The 'regular media' isn't so fucking stupid as to post names, addresses, and phone numbers of RNC delegates. Replace all instances of "Indymedia" with "Wal-Mart" in that case and see how fast the slashbots change their tune.
'Standards' in computing only impress those who are impressed by things like 'standards'.
Because...they knew the truth! Bush was being coached during the debate!
That won't help much. As soon as the backups are brought online those systems will be siezed and brought down as well. The only way to bring the site back up would be to use Freenet or something similar.
Their servers are having trouble, so its Slashdot to the rescue
God spoke to me.
to even get onto gerrymandering which is totally immoral but not illegal.
Hmm... the archive.org page only goes to January of 2004.
Better than nothing, though.
But I guess the knee-jerk "It's a Bush comsperacie!" crap is appropriate for slashdot.
/. article, being rather light on details, said nothing of the sort. Secondly, is it somehow better that the U.S. authorities are taking down news websites at the request of foreign governments, rather than on their own initiative?
Firstly, the actual
Grr! Arg!
That was a civil case where the anti-abortion group had a site had the doctor's pictures in targets and when each doctor was killed, they crossed off the dead doctor. This was a civil suit holding them responsible for the results of their speech which encouraged the murders of the doctors. This is different from just posting the information on the delgates -- without targets, without orders to kill, etc.
Fight Spammers!
PATRIOT act?
-illumina+us "I put on my robe and wizard hat..."
"The US authorities issued a subpoena to Rackspace's office in the US ordering them to physically remove Indymedia hardware located in London"
They wouldn't be obliged to take down the server in a foreign country. Believe it or not, UK soil is subject to UK law, not American law.
"It's not your information. It's information about you" - John Ford, Vice President, Equifax
The best theories are so far that they either (a) posted photos of undercover swiss police officers or (b) posted publicly available info concerning members of the RNC.
If (a), what on earth does this have to do with terrorism or indeed the FBI. If (b), this is public info, they just collated it. Again, what does this have to do with the FBI, or indeed terrorists.
---- Den ene knappen er powerknapp, den andre er Bender voice knapp "Bite My Shiny Metal Ass"
With that kind of attitude, you'll gladly hand over all your rights over time all in the name of 'security'!
Besides, if you believe that a terrorist is waiting for someone to post that information is underestimating those people. If they wanted that information secure, they should have thought about that before they made it so easily available some independant media hacks could obtain it.
Dumb ass. If indymedia can get the info, then so can any other enterprising person/group that wants it enough.
It's called terrorism because the reason isn't to kill people, but to make them fear. But it seams that while people are all for it to make "war on terror", they don't want to fight their own fear.
Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
You only believe this because the mainstream media is telling you to be scared. The FBI has no right to halt the freedom of speech - that's bullshit!! Independent media is needed to protect your freedom!!! Damn, I wish there were more open minded American's unlike you...
Its not "just" the current US administration, its a general western centre-right policy: note the servers were not all located in the USA and therefore other governments were implicit in the "crime" though one wonders why the FBI rather than the law enforcement agencies of said governments seized the HDs. And its "your rights online" because it appears you cant maintain a legal website expressing views contrary to the political establishment (of several nations) without it getting taken down.
Indymedia had information of people walking around in public places, and because they identified their political affiliation and their name, (which was, no doubt, on the identification those people were wearing in public) the FBI swoops in and seized drives.
But a CIA agent and on going CIA operations relating to proliferation of nuclear materials are compromised, and nothing happens?
One of these is a little more threatening than the other. Well at least the President isn't getting a hummer.
"They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety."
This is the final verion of the press release, the parent has an earlier version:
Press Release
7 October 2004
FBI Seizes IMC Servers in the UK
US authorities issued a federal order to Rackspace's office in the US ordering them to provide Indymedia's hardware located in London to the requesting agency. Rackspace is one of Indymedia's web hosting providers with offices in the US and London. Rackspace complied, without first notifying Indymedia, and turned over Indymedia's server in the UK. This affects some 20+ Indymedia sites worldwide.
Since the subpoena was issued to Rackspace and not to Indymedia, the reasons for this action are still unknown to Indymedia. Talking to Indymedia volunteers, Rackspace stated that "they cannot provide Indymedia with any information regarding the order." ISPs have received gag orders in similar situations which prevent them from updating the concerned parties on what is happening.
It is unclear to Indymedia how and why a server that is outside the US jurisdiction can be seized by US authorities.
At the same time a second server was taken down at Rackspace which provided streaming radio to several radio stations, BLAG (linux distro), and a handful of miscellanous things.
The last few months have seen numerous attacks on independent media by the US Federal Government. In August the Secret Service used a subpoena in an attempt to disrupt the NYC IMC before the RNC by trying to get IP logs from an ISP in the US and the Netherlands. Last month the FCC shut down community radio stations around the US. Two weeks ago the FBI requested that Indymedia takes down a post on the Nantes IMC that had a photo of some undercover Swiss police and IMC volunteers in Seattle were visited by the FBI on the same issue. On the other hand, Indymedia and other independent media organisations were successfull with their victories for example against Diebold and the Patroit Act. Today however, the US authorities shut down IMCs around the world.
The list of affected local media collectives includes Ambazonia, Uruguay, Andorra, Poland, Western Massachusetts, Nice, Nantes, Lilles, Marseille (all France), Euskal Herria (Basque Country), Liege, East and West Vlaanderen, Antwerpen (all Belgium), Belgrade, Portugal, Prague, Galiza, Italy, Brazil, UK, part of the Germany site, and the global Indymedia Radio site.
Original on the wiki: WwwFeaturesWorkpad
How do we know it was the police anyway, if they were supposedly undercover? If they were, and someone photographed them, the undercover police shouldn't have had identifying marks. If they're that easily identifable, they're not really undercover, are they? And if they aren't identifiable, then the Swiss themselves gave away the whole shebang by raising a stink about it, no? If the police wanted to remain anonymous, maybe they should have taken the pictures from a long way away with a telephoto lens the size of Hubble, or from behind a one-way mirror in a van or something.
Sorry, this just all seems really messed up to me in general.
Do not touch -Willie
Do you still think that ELECTIONS are the targets? The targets are commercial, not political. Why would anyone that hates the US (or more specific parts of it) enough to kill civilians care about our democratic procedures? Anyone that is angry at the US is angry at groups already in power.
Playing pornographics games during the day is evil! Play at night!
Widely known? Widely crowed about by the terror-mongers in the current administration but not "WIDELY KNOWN". You've been told by Tom Ridge...Darth Cheney has told you...but we don't have a single shred of personal proof to back it up. Noooo...they wouldn't want to spell it out for us. That'd spoil all the fun of trying to terrorize US citizens into voting for Alfred E. Neuman again. At best it's "widely rumoured" that unnamed, unspecified terrorist-like evil-doer-types might be trying to do said evil to unnamed unspecified persons, places or things sometime early in November. Frankly, I'll take my chances.
I agree, nice essay. :)
meh
Thats funny, most IndyMedia people believe that they are in the center, and just everybody around them is to the right.
They deserved it!
So don't give me this garbage about how I would feel. I don't like the idea that someone could post my address and phone number on the net so that a group of dicks could harass me, but I like even less this whole 'nanny state' censorship issue. And I hate the idea that something like this can be done for a reason that isn't even actually illegal. What's good for the goose is damn well good for the gander.
Now, that said, I think the likelihood that 'RNC' appears in any way on the warrant is vanishingly small. If, in fact, this is in retaliation for the RNC names thing, it's going to have some actual legal basis that is nearly or wholly unrelated.
(And may well be fictional.)
-fred
Sign #11 of Slashdot overdose: You see the phrase 'moderate Republican' and you wonder if that would be a +1 or a -1.
> Because it wasn't "some website raided by the FBI". It was an
> independant media source that was taken down by the FBI for reasons
> unknown....
Saying indymedia is a 'media' site is more absurd than claiming slashdot is part of the media. indymedia is a political site, and prides itself on riding as close to the edge of the law as they think they can get away with.
So lets lose the 'The Man is supressing the press.' angle. Rackspace wouldn't have coughed up the server without the proper legal paperwork so everyone just chill until the facts come out as to what sort of evidence they are looking for. Try to keep in mind that the FBI isn't usually one of the rogue elephant agencies and for this case several different governments probably all had to sign off on it.
Democrat delenda est
Earlier last month, the Secret Service requested visitor logs from Indymedia to determine who posted personal info about GOP delegates. It looks like Big Brother really wanted that info.
See link for more info.
AFAIK (but of course IANA(French)L...) is is illegal to publish photos of police in France and this is why the info about the two under cover cops in the photos and the actual photos were taken down from the IMC site, almost a week ago...
If these photos is the excuse that the FBI are using then I suspect that it is just an excuse...
"They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety."
Sorry, I don't consider publishing the personal, home contact information for public figures to be an essential liberty.
It's pretty clear that wether the raid was because of that,or because they were recklessly exposing the work of swedish undercover police -indymedia went well beyond any defensible concept of free speech and into the realm of aiding and abbetting criminal and/or terrorist activity.
And your point is?
http://www.busyweather.com/
jesus dude, think about what you are saying. You support police action over people having retarded views? I support police action if people break laws. Being anti-american is not illegal. I take hope in my faith that the FBI had real cause. That is a cause other than what you've stated.
-Nuke the moon
'... On Aug. 18, an anonymous poster to nyc.indymedia.org published the names, addresses, phone numbers and email addresses of 1,600 delegates to the Republican National Convention in New York City along with a message for anti-RNC groups to use the information "in whatever way they see fit."
[As noted in this previous post, 10464479 ]
Kiddies this is pretty much the quickest way to get your hardware confiscated.
peterrenshaw ~ Another Scrappy Startup
Where's sealand's servers when you need them?
Once hardware is seized like this, it and everything on it will never be returned. Whether you are guilty or not.
they said bad things! get them!
...Darth Cheney has told you...but we don't have a single shred of personal proof to back it up. Noooo...they wouldn't want to spell it out for us. That'd spoil all the fun of trying to terrorize US citizens into voting for Alfred E. Neuman again.
The worst part about not being republican is people who supposedly oppose them the way that I do cannot be bothered to engage in mature, rational discourse.
The administration is going on what information they have, given that this contact information could easily give terrorists an opening to do damage, law enforcement would be remiss in their duties if they didn't investigate it.
There is some more info about the IMC Nantes / FBI issue on the IMC wiki... but in French...
But I guess the knee-jerk "It's a Bush comsperacie!" crap is appropriate for slashdot.
Of course! This is Slashdot, where every speculation is taken as the ultimate truth. If you ever get low on karma, just post a comment about the Bush being responsible for the execution of Jimmie Hoffa, and like magic you'll get it all back.
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
To quote Mark Steel - "Russia isn't communist, Russia is shit"
"Welcome Ladies and Gentlemen to the end of the twentieth century and the arrival of
friendly fascism. Regrettably, millions will die as before. But just think of the tremendous
selection amd savings you'll gain. Of course the loss of freedom and democracy are
tragedies, I know, but consider the entertainment value contained within and to remind
you, it is you, the people, who have mandated this course of our fate so please come
with me... Look at the new face of power in America. This is your future you can never
leave. Who said tyranny can't be fun? Friendly fascism having so much fun, what else do
you need? You'll learn to like what you must do. If you resist you are suppressed. You
are told who to fight and when by Bush the Nazi Fascist Friend. Alienating technology
wipes out our sense of community. Millions will die just like before. We disconnect and
start the war. We make life a commodity. We turn animals into machines. Kinder and
gentler slaughter house. Big business and big government distract us with entertainment.
They manufacture our consent while we destroy the environment."
Consolidated
moveon.org is next?
That was brilliant. Thanks.
Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.
Why do I suspect that IM's drives will be returned to them wiped clean? Shutting down any nationwide media outlet is a pretty scary thing. Agree or disagree with them, they still qualify for "freedom of the press". Or atleast they did. I serious hope this is not a trend before the November Elections.
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence or insanity but they've always worked for me" - HST
Protect America. Bush Cheney 2004.
Don't you mean Protect America FROM Bush Cheney 2004?
Get my friends out of a country that was no threat to the U.S., and fix the record setting budget deficit and maybe I'll think about forgiving those clowns.
It is a sad reality that government organisations use bully tactics for political purposes. If I were running, say, an independent media company, I wouldn't be running my website, the main distribution method off a rack server with 19 other countries' IMCs.
In fact, this is what Freenet is designed for.
Decentralise and conquer!
IMCs are like the guerillas of news media. They should start (contuinue) using this to their advantage.
The first amendment guarantees the right to hold stupid, idiotic political opinions. If you don't like it, there are other countries with different constitutions, feel free to emigrate. Personally, I like the Bill of Rights just fine, thank you.
Have you read my blog lately?
If the Swiss police had just gotten indymedia to be featured on slashdot, they could have saved the FBI some trouble. We can take down servers much faster than the FBI.
You Righties see America as something to which you owe loyalty, and you see and the President, Senators, et al as demigods. However, we Lefties see America as the property of its citizens, and its leaders as our employees.
I think the difference in perspective may be better understood by seeing those on the Right as composed of two classes--the alpha leaders and the followers. Really, it is a timeless pack-animal, social-animal hierarchy.
We on the Left see humans as something above animals, and to a great extent we reject animal tradition, and seek a new organization, one that minimizes hierarchy, and one that sees a nation as a tool for the citizens. You on the Right seek comfort in a stable society where you and everyone else "know your own place" in society.
eat shiat and bark at the moon
tries to blow up the United States, the F.B.I. is too busy pursuing file swappers, software pirates and other menaces like this one. Way to keep us safe, guys! Just wonderful to see that you think trivial bullshit like this ranks right up there with Bin Laden...Screw the Delegates, catch the terrorists already!
I think that says it pretty well. :-/
Someone put a black hole in my pocket and now I'm broke.
Independent my ass though.
If they broke the law fuck 'em.
Without, in fact, going through the UK government, because otherwise it would have been the UK authorities who had them seized. And then, there are specific procedures under which intelligence agencies share data, so they have to go through channels and such. If this were an ordinary criminal case, it would be even more involved.
As it is, the legality of this move is not clear to me. It's a US company which has overseas customers, and hangs onto their equipment for them. If the FBI called up a US-based property management corporation that had offices for rent in London and told them to go into the offices and bundle up a filing cabinet and ship it overseas, I suspect they'd have had a lot more resistance than they apparently did. (Or perhaps a closer parallel would be 'U-Stor' sending the contents of a storage area off to the FBI from, say, Belize.)
I'd have to say that, even so far, this is a bit more interesting than your average crack dealer being 'nocked off'.
-fred
Sign #11 of Slashdot overdose: You see the phrase 'moderate Republican' and you wonder if that would be a +1 or a -1.
Doesn't the warrent have to say what the reason is? Perhaps not but I would have thought so.
[n/t]
Well, do you know what the Swiss laws against even mentioning undercover law enforcement agents are? Perhaps you're violating them now, and the FBI should raid slashdot.
That's the problem with the argument that every internet content provider is subject to the laws of every country on Earth.
And, yes, to the extent that the FBI has decided that its job is to protect foreign secret police rather than American citizens, it does reflect negatively on the Bush administration. Considering how often they oversimplify terrorism ("they hate us because we're free"), they sure don't seem very interested in actual freedom of the press. At least not when the press is anti-establishment... even against foreign establishments.
Cheers
-b
If I wanted a sig I would have filled in that stupid box.
If TV has taught me nothing (and it hasn't), this shit happens all the time in the US; but to get a company in the UK to bend over for a US agency is something, even if it does have an american parent.
I guess the moral of the story is if you're worried about this thing happening to your servers make sure you host with a non-US company, even outside the US.
The best theories are so far that they either (a) posted photos of undercover swiss police officers or (b) posted publicly available info concerning members of the RNC.
If (a), what on earth does this have to do with terrorism or indeed the FBI. If (b), this is public info, they just collated it. Again, what does this have to do with the FBI, or indeed terrorists.
Damn dude, you should be a private investigator or something.
Looks like just another reason for offsite backups, kept away from the internal IT staff. I used to work for a place where VP of engineering and the CEO got daily backups and both were said to keep them in a undisclosed secure location, Maybe Cheney is running a side busienss.
...and Shashdotters are more than eager to fill in the blanks with little mor than insightless speculation and tinfoil-hat conspiracy theories.
This whole article is a troll. Perhaps a serious, informed discussion could take place if the editors had the journalistic integrity to gather some facts. Instead they chose to post a story ripe with Black Helicopters (tm) but lacking in information, presumably to whip up the froth glands of the /. faithful.
There's a Mercedes gap too. I want one and can't afford one, but it's not government's job to do anything about it.
501(c)3 organizations are prohibited by the tax exempt tax laws from making any endorsement of, or any published statement against any candidate for an upcoming election.
/.'ers portray indymedia in posts, it seems possible to me that indymedia has made or published direct support for or direct statements against candidates for election.
This all could be related to IRS suspecting a violation of tax law.
Not being too informed about indymedia in particular, this is just a guess on my part. However, the way that other
Thats the funny bit, Americans think they are free, fantasy is something they are good at its the reality they have trouble with....
the argument that every internet content provider is subject to the laws of every country on Earth
If they're doing business with every country on Earth, then they can expect such transactions to be subject to the laws of that country.
What?
The more star systems will slip through your fingers.
I'm setting up my domain on diy.myrice.com, which is in China.
I'm hoping that being located in an unfriendly country will make it difficult or impossible for the FBI to mess with me.
(It's also far cheaper than hosting in the US)
Anyone know any differently? Which countries will cooperate with the feds and which wont?
"Reactionaries must be deprived of the right to voice their opinions; only the people have that right." - Mao
And its "your rights online" because it appears you cant maintain a legal website expressing views contrary to the political establishment (of several nations) without it getting taken down.
My your logic, Slashdot would've been taken down a long time ago.
1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
translate or learn French
nantes.indymedia.org
Indymedia "leans" left like the Pope "leans" Catholic. Everyone knows that. In fact, their slant is the one reason that they *should* have remove the RNC names immediately. It can now be construed that the folks at Indymedia wanted that information to be available. After all, lots of other information was removed immediately.
If it turns out that there is a link between the Indymedia list and the RNC folks that were accosted, then that it could easily be construed that Indymedia was complicit in those attacks. At the very least it would be fishy enough for a judge to issue a warrant.
If there are truely independent, why didn't they post both DNC and RNC delegate names?
1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
This is the type of thing that makes me really embarassed to be an American.
These people should have been shown a warrant and that warrant should be public.
We should know the EXACT reason those hard disks were taken for NOW. This type of crap really, really disturbs me.
What's left to prevent fishing expeditions against people the gov't doesn't like?
They show up search the place, find something illegal, and make up the warrant afterwards?
This is lunacy. The executive branch has been breaking constitutional law left and right and no one is on trial.
Life is too short to proofread.
Indymedia... that name vaugely rings a bell...
Indymedia...
Google is my friend. Google Group search for Indymedia in news.admin.net-abuse.* (email and sightings especally)...
64 threads (some with hundreds of examples of related spam) sight some examples.
What does SPEWS, SPAMHAUS, and other DNS RBL's say? Nothing. Take it with a grain of salt.
--
# Canmephians for a better Linux Kernel
$Stalag99{"URL"}="http://stalag99.net";
Your home address and telephone number are public information too.
Enjoy!
I'm out of my mind right now, but feel free to leave a message.....
You "super patriots" are pawns in an vicious scheme to rid the world of "evil."
The USA is the greatest and most free country in the world because of its people, not "super patriotic" rhetoric like yours and ravenous plots to dominate the planet's wealth like those of the "high cabal."
Out through the 'In' door in zero four. Dump Bush Cheney.
Indymedia isn't directing its audience to kill Republican electors. Antichoice terrorist direct their audience to kill abortionists, pass around their contact info, and then some in their audience actually kill abortionists. What is this demented obsession with "balance" when the rightwingers are so totally unbalanced, that balance just drags us all to the right?
--
make install -not war
mod parent up.
that is the most granular thing i've seen so far regarding the upcoming american polls
Here in Australia we are left with pretty much the same situation sadly. Except both groups are doing the raping and the pillaging and all the other parties (greens I'm looking at you) just suck up to them.
They almost seem as "independent" as Fox News.
1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
Breakfast served all day!
Rather than RAID, they need something like AFS which would allow a bunch of servers to be knocked out but would still continue to function normally. Sprinkle them around half a dozen countries and taking out your organisation becomes extremely difficult, it just needs one to survive.
Hmmm, The FBI as a Disaster Recovery scenario, who'd've thought...
Deleted
The regular media doesn't get taken down so easily...Sounds suspicous....Politically motivated? Possibly...
So if Fox News posted personal information of DNC delegates, do you think that they will be able to get away with it?
1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
They liked to live on the edge of annoying the establishment... they were the ones that broke the story of the statue of saddam hussen falling being a put-up job for the assembled press (there were only about half a dozen people there, there rest were reporters/press).
A conspiracy theory is not a story... there were plenty of other photo angles from that same day that showed a vastly different "story" than IndyMedia posited.
I've dealt firsthand with many of the hacks and idiots involved in Indymedia. They grab on to the coat-tails of any media event or protest they can and then act as extreme as possible to garner press even if it harms the original vision of the event or protest. They are revolting, dishonest and a sad excuse for a "media".
--- I do not moderate.
"and it's truly worth dying for. However, it's widely known that the terrorists are looking for any oppertunity to make a signifigant strike during the elections."
Well, elections in Australia will be held tomorrow. Will something happen here today? Like.. a major bomb blast in Sydney? Or a plane hijacked? I really doubt it.
Guess Howard will win again.
RTFA!!!! The F.B.I. DID NOT decide, the SWISS asked for their help!
Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
Freedom of speech doesn't mean you get to do or say whatever the hell you want. Freedom of speech extends up to the point you start stepping on the rights of other people. You can't harrass someone, for instance. Or post their personal info when there is a chance of retaliation (there have been multiple protest raids on Bush/Cheney offices coordinated by the AFL-CIO, one break-in in which executive computers--and no others-- were stolen, and gunshots fired into the windows of the front windows of another office).
The sooner OPEC switches to the Euro and isolation of the US world bully begins, the better IMHO.
Except in its own mind, Indymedia isn't any more of a "news resource" than any other web forum or blog.
It was brilliant how? Because AC-GP supports FBI raids to bring down people with opposing views? Bear in mind that we still don't know why Indymedia was taken down. GP is just ranting because he is a hate-filled idiot who can't stand free speech.
I don't claim to support what Indymedia says but they should be allowed to say it. Anything less would be a police state. GP seems to think police states are fine as long as they police things he doesn't like. He would make a great dictator.
Don't you hate meta-sigs?
Go back to watching Faux news you insensitive clod!
I think having independent media is very inportant for the world today.
Online backup with Mozy, sounds like Ozzie, but more!
> It was an independant media source that was taken down by the FBI for reasons unknown....
/. ers, seizure of your server hardware could mean a raid on your home as well.
Because it could just as easily have been your blog. If you're like many
Hey, nobody ever said indymedia is an impartial news source!
It's a self-proclaimed seattle, noglob thing; anyone can't say otherwise with a straight face, while FOX claims its a "just the facts" nobody ever raided its bloody servers or newsrooms! Thought-police raids are simply hateful; you can expect them in a godforsaken dictatorship somewhere in the 3rd world or China but it stinks when this shit happens on our "democratic" turf!
No man, I was listening to the live raid in Genova Diaz High School on the indymedia mp3stream and it didn't mix well with my serenity; not after a kid called Carlo Giuliani was shot down by a young Carabiniere and platoons of fascists donning Police antiriot equipment were chasing down pacifists in Genova. The following months investigators said the idiot that killed... killed... killed... bullet in face... right under an eye... well, the official story is that the asshole fired a warning (panic) shot in the air and a stone deviated the bullet into Carlo's face (hey, remember the Kennedy comedy?) The most galling fact about this incident is that the idiot that killed the other guy was a drafted youngster who wasn't even supposed to be there, thrown into the mess because of poor planning and disastrous logistics on the security forces side... all this while that Berlusconi prick was hanging artificial oranges on the trees adorning the official photo site and asking housewifes to refrain from hanging underwear on the balconies because it would ruin the vista!
I lean on the left and while I'm too disenchanted to sing the anti-corporate countergospel noglobs sing, this stuff knots my bowels; difficult to obtain VHSs and 4am tv footage reported chilling/chilean actions against protesting _Citizens_ (not friggin' black blockers... those were left untouched), the Diaz events, reported live by Indy; the Bolzaneto Human Rights violations performed by officers of the Italian Republic... AAARGH! I'm glowing!
This stuff makes me sooo angry; it's some miserable FBI suit clicks his heels to get some conservative law & order drivel on the media before US elections! Ah, and the worst part will be the ultraleft/anarchos blowing their heads off for this taunt (and it'll be just what the bushites are hoping for to chill the security moms)
Isn't all this sick? Back to the point: Indy isn't an independent news source, never was, never tried, never will. It isn't any better than FOX, cnn or Rai fwiw... raiding them is the usual jock vs. nerd persecution; hateful, silly and revelatory of the intellectual retardation of the perpetrators.
Mi domando chi à il mandante di tutte le cazzate che faccio - Altan
The order of the Black Hand killed President Kennedy...
1. Order of the Black Hand (OBH) infiltrates the Order of the Young Turks in 1912.
2. Through this they are able to perpetuate the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand and touch off WWI.
3. This draws Czar Nicholas from Moscow and leaves that Rasputin guy in charge.
4. Rasputin does all sorts of dumb things.
5. Trotsky writes about all the mistakes Rasputin made.
6. Oswald reads Trotsky, and is motivated to change things in the US...
7. Oswald assassinates president Kennedy.
Thus, the OBH is responsible for the death of our President. Hows that for a conspiracy?
(Please note, the government internet keyword trolls should pick up on this post in a heartbeat... I hear a knock at the door.)
Trying to use sarcasm in text-based forums does not work.
Who the F**k is there it consultant? Didn't he ever hear of an off-site backup? The search warrant did not revoke their right to operate, just that they turn over the RACKSPACE drives. An off-site back up, and a few hundred dollars could have gotten them back up in a jiffy. It would be very advantageous to have the off-site back-up to be read only to prevent the argument that it too had to be seized in order to do forensic analysis to detect erased material. Learn from this ye who yearn to cry in the dark.
You say that as if the FBI hasn't given Americans numerous reasons to question its judgement, motives and actions in the curtailing of legal activity and silencing of legal speech.
Some of us hold a perspective in which:
1.) We don't call people "you Righties" or "Lefties."
2.) We don't generalize an entire cross-section of people in succinct little sentences meant to insult people (i.e., the false "know your place" bullshit).
3.) There exists this magical world in which people AREN'T Republican or Democrat and view both of your scumsucking proven liar candidates as idiots who don't deserve to be President. Good thing your Democratic party is VIOLATING FREE SPEECH AND THE CONSITUTION by suing Nader across the country to forcefully shunt him off the ballot so that people are forced to vote either Republican or Democrat, right? After all, that's what a free society in which "anybody can run for President" is all about, right? Well, not in a George Soros-funded election year, apparently.
KKAAAAHHHHHHHHNNNNNNN!
"United Kingdom, which, you'll note, is a different country"
Oh dear, you lost me there I'm afraid. The old folks around here tell me that back in the day that was the case but nowadays we are just another state of the USA.
An interesting program last night about our actions toward the inhabitants of Diego Garcia just emphasised that point even further.
You're joking, right? Bush is not desperate to fix the election. All he needs is a team of monkeys and widespread adoption of electronic voting. Oh, wait. Democrats better start guarding their local zoos.
However, we Lefties see America as the property of its citizens, and its leaders as our employees.
Then why do you want to raise taxes and socialize the nation's programs? Seems to me, that's taking stuff OUT of the citizens' and employers' hands. The rest of your comment was flamebait. So people on the Right view humans as animals and follow animal traditions? Wtf?
It's cute to label people and get modded up by left-wing moderators, but it just illustrates how much political mindsets are actually no different than organized religions. I could replace "we on the Left" with "we Scientologists" and suddenly everyone would agree you were a kook.
However, it's widely known that the terrorists are looking for any oppertunity to make a signifigant strike during the elections.
/.
please make that "widely known" a "widely assumed". well maybe unless you are one of those terrorists yourself, then it might be more appropriate to just drop the "widely". but honestly i don't think many terrorists post on
[i have an opinion and i am not afraid to use it]
Yeah, the Rev. Moon's Washington Times would never investigate those reports to see if they're just another Rove frame job:
In the 1996 Alabama Supreme Court race between Democratic incumbent Kenneth Ingram and Republican challenger Harold See, Rove printed anonymous fliers attacking See, his own client. The purpose was "'to create a backlash against the Democrat,' as Joe Perkins, who worked for Ingram, put it to me," Green writes.
I find it totally predictable that a Bush apologist would get behind this Republican terrorism. Have you taken all the shots you can?
--
make install -not war
"...being anti-American is cool..."
Heh, heh. You mean throughout the rest of the planet ?
( yes i realise that is equally as flamebaity as the parent. please mod me accordingly )
I agree that publishing domestic data for public servants just doesn't sit well with me.
But still, part of me sees it as just desserts, in a way, for congresscritters who keep allowing more and more of our personal rights (in the US) to be waived: less need for warrants, undisclosed reasons for arrest, secret trials, etc. etc. all all supposed to be fine for US, the common folk.
I recall clearly the NPR radio host asking John Ashcroft why on earth that we the public could not expect the invasive Patriot Act powers to be used improperly- there were no checks or balances left!.
Ashcroft replied,"Well you'll just have to trust us".
Recall a while back, they allowed some public disclosure of social security numbers etc, and some wags got all the SENATORS info of that sort and put it on the web? (it was something like that- it made slashdot). IIRC, THAT info got locked down in a hurry.
If we are supposed to trust THEM with broad powers and the removal of checks and balances that used to be present in our system, then they maybe can trust US, too. If not, then we should not have to trust them, either.
Hardcore Democrats have been nuts since the Gore-inspired "stolen election" hysteria of 2000. The fact that every objective study of the voting in Florida, including those funded by liberal newspapers, shows Bush won by a small margin means little to these fanatics. If the Democratic party were in more capable hands, it would have put an end to the madness much like Nixon did to legitimate evidence that JFK and the mafia fixed the elections in Illinois. But it isn't. Post-Clinton, the Democratic party is led by integrity-deficient rogues.
Look at recent news. Shots were fired into a Bush-Cheney headquarters in Knoxville, Tennessee. In Orlando, Florida, Democratic fanatics attacked a Republican party headquarters. The same thing happened in West Allis, Wisconsin. All that is a direct product of the "Bush = Hitler" rhetoric coming from the Democratic party leadership and their activist groups. And from someone who lived through it, it is also almost identical to the sort of violence-inspiring rhetoric that came from Democratic politicians (i.e. George Wallace) in the South during the last days of segregation.
This is serious stuff. My greatx4 grandfather and one of his daughters were murdered during the Civil War for opposing Southern succession in NW Alabama. My greatx3 grandfather was murdered for voting Republican in 1874 when Southern Democrats were as rabid about winning by any means as national Democrats are today.
Notice something else. If these attacks had been on Democratic headquarters, Big Media would be all over Bush demanding that he put a stop to it much like they did with the the very decent, honest and non-violent swift boat veterans. Why aren't they all over Kerry demanding action? Could this be bias? Oh no, we all know that Rather is as honest as.... well Clinton.
The chilling effect of these attacks is why, with the two candidates fairly equal in the polls, you see far fewer Bush stickers on cars than Kerry stickers. Bush supporters legitimately fear a rock through their windshield from all these crazed Democrats. Check NationalReview.com for an article on this "Climate of Fear."
Me? Much like my illustrious ancestors no one intimidates me. Despite warnings from my landlord about a smashed windshield, my car still has a homemade "Kerry Kills Babies" sign with a picture of an aborted baby. Oh, the obscene notes it is attracting from my smugly liberal neighbors!
--Mike Perry, Inkling blog , Seattle
Personally, I like the Bill of Rights just fine, thank you.
As originally drafted, or as it stands now?
"Reactionaries must be deprived of the right to voice their opinions; only the people have that right." - Mao
The FBI isn't in the bussiness of tyring to worry about thing like that, they are in the bussiness of investigating crime. Now you can argue that there was pressure put on them by the Whitehouse for political reasons, but you'd better have something more than AFDB speculation to back it up with. Regardless, the FBI isn't concerned about if Indymedia is "legit" or not.
no, he bought it on ebay.
I'm famous.
The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
No one's sure how they got the warrants, but they *did* get them, so there must have been a reason. You can give me all the conspiracy theories you want, but they got warrants, we should presume they have reasonable evidence of something illegal. Going around blaming everything on the Republicans is not a valid way to explain everything. You may not think the best of our government, but it isn't *that* corrupt.
>What's left to prevent fishing expeditions against people the gov't doesn't like?
They show up search the place, find something illegal, and make up the warrant afterwards?
Nothing. Say hi to USAPATRIOT.
In case you were wondering why we need independent media, take a look at this AP newswire article that "slipped out" today, claiming that Bush has already won the election:
TV station reports that Bush has been elected President
-
http://www.indymedia.it/press_release_en.html (English)
I just put a prominent link up at the top of this page of mine which is getting 5000 hits a day lately. Here's how my link looks: Except that I used CSS colors to make it stand out more.Every US voter should know about this, and understand why they should be outraged about it, before the election happens.
It is within our power to put a stop to this nonsense. But to do that, we have to tell the world, and then we have to vote that war criminal out of office November 2nd.
Request your free CD of my piano music.
First of all:
1. Indymedia is "independent" as "not-owned-by-a-corporation", not as "politically neutral".
2. Indymedia does not lean to the left. The Guardian (UK), Le Monde (FR) or maybe even the New York Times (US) are leftist. Indymedia is just anarchist globaliphobia.
Now, even if we don't like it, we cannot accept what the FBI just did. There are plenty of legal alternatives to remove information that (apparently) may jeopardize the privacy or the undercover activities of police officers (who, by the way, are not inflitrating a cartel, just taking pictures at a protest). Taking away servers and shutting down an entire network of local activists is, in my opinion, an exaggerated measure.
---
I think this post really highlights the tendency of people to believe their own personal views are virtuous while opposing views are virtuous.
that should be non-virtuous, or wicked, or whatever... after work beer. hmm.
I don't read or respond to AC posts
Thank you for the only intelligent post on this entire thread. Seriously.
Boycott everything - they're all trying to fuck you one way or another
They have more guns.
And nowhere in this indymedia article does it even imply that no warrant was shown. They specifically said that they have not been told anything by Rackspace, whom the subpoena was issued to.
Dood, what do you think a subpoena is?!!
A subpoena is a written court order requiring the attendance of the person named in the subpoena at a specified time and place for the purpose of being questioned under oath concerning a particular matter which is the subject of an investigation, proceeding, or lawsuit. A subpoena is issued by someone authorized by law, usually by the attorney for a party to a lawsuit, but very often issued by someone authorized to conduct an investigation such as the State Attorney General or local District Attorney.
In addition to requiring the attendance of a person, a subpoena may also require the production of a paper, document, or other object relevant to the particular investigation, proceeding, or lawsuit.
http://www.tba.org/LawBytes/T9_1807.htmlOS X:*nix for the real world.
Whether this is in regards to Swiss Undercover Agent, or the Posting of RNC delegates information you may rest absolutely assured that had any of the Big 5 derivatives ( you know viacom, time-warner, murdoch , disney and that german company ) done the same thing their assets would have been seized as well.
One only has to look at the sesuire of CNN's equipement after Robert Novack revealed that Valerie Plame was an undercover CIA agent to conclude that indymedia is being treated equally.
Oh hold on... that never happend! Oh well So much for Freedom of Press!
That any media organization whatever would have it's harddrives, presses, or any other method of publication seized without explaination or public discourse is an afront to a free society and should be seen as a crime against the people.
Bush 1895!
-- force and mind are opposites; morality ends where a gun begins ayn rand
Not all of us are Hippies with nothing better to do than read communist proganda all day. Just because we aren't familair with Indymedia doesn't make us trolls. The fact that you assume we must be however does imply you are a troll.
And apparently the cops and a judge thought there is probable cause.
"I keep my offsite company backups in the WTC South Tower...... oh my god? is that a airliner headed straight for us?! OH MY GOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*alkshglakshfg*"
Maybe the swiss government will be more cooperative when we'll need information on terrorists and criminals who have bank accounts in Switzerland...
I've been reading the comments on threshold 0 and I can believe the kind of things people have been writing. Using words like "anti-american" and "pro-terrorism" in all seriousness.
I think we need to institute an no politics rule on /. since this topic is making me feel queezy. I much prefered the days when we would all agree that MS is evil, linux rules, and have cute little arguments about which distro is better.
If 20 people call the police and Say I'm a bookie, and the police get a warrant. They can ask for a warant to take my records and computers and examine them. This isn't the same as being convicted.
(If at first you don't succeed, do it different next time!)
"Broke" the story? LOL. More like introduced a conspiracy theory. I watched the whole thing live and there were well more than "half a dozen" Iraqis there. IM's "proof" were pictures *after* the statue fell when most of the were busy dragging saddam's head down the street.
Is it a conspiracy theory when an army report confirms it was staged by the US military?
Not to mention broad shots of the plaza showed it to be surrounded by US tanks and practically empty, save for the small crowd around the statue.
Admit it: you got played by the Bush administration.
But they don't mind violating rape shield laws when a basketball star's butt is on the line, do they? There is no law against posting names, addresses, and phone numbers of delegates.
Admits? WTF is there to admit? Do you 'admit' to lean right?
They are a global organisation, use a global filesystem, replicated servers. Hell, the software is even free, all they have to do is set it up:
OpenAFS or Coda.
As long as a single server survives your sites stay up.
Deleted
than by removing the very reason they hate us!
It's a brilliant move on President Bush's part and I for one support him 100%!
Typical slashdot. The only reason I ever read the comments is to see how anyone could oppose good and worship evil... again.
This story is classic slashdot. Look at all these americans supporting the illeagal theft of indymedia's servers by the (effectively) illegal FBI.
ONLY on slashdot
If the FBI came and tried to take one of the suso.org hard disks for some independent and free speech website, I would punch them in the mouth.
What the fuck is wrong with this country? People have forgotten what our freedoms mean.
If Bush gets re-elected, expect more of this....
RS
Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
I think there's another important possibility: that the slashdot crowd is significantly anti-Bush. No, that's not the same thing as being pro-Kerry, pro-Democrat, or pro-Liberal, though of course some people will be those things as well.
So far as I've ever been able to determine, Bush is so sodding incompetent that I would expect the range of anti-Bush people to approximate "everyone". Even if you happen to have exactly the same set of goals, values, and priorities which Bush claims, I would imagine that you'd at least want a remotely intelligent and competent person to pursue them.
Just in case you didn't know, the SOLE mandate of the ACLU is to uphold and defend the bill of rights. That necessarily involves politics.
While it doesn't follow, as day follows night, that being against the ACLU is basically being against the U.S. Constitution, it comes awfully close.
Yep, you just *gotta* hate people who want american freedom for americans, let alone the rest of the world.
I am sure that every relative of yours (presuming you are an american) who has ever served this country would *much* prefer if everybody just shut the hell up and let the government do what they know is best for all of us.
Down with the ACLU!
Booo!!!
(ASIDE: The USAPATRIOT Act is was the last straw in my book, and is what finally got me to *join* the ACLU. Their explination of it is rather straight forward and complete. But I bet you haven't actuall read it [the act or the ACLU deconstruction] have you? Didn't think so... 8-)
Innocent people shouldn't be forced to pay for inferior software development.
--"Code Complete" Microsoft Press
branched it off the wrong comment
OS X:*nix for the real world.
The reason they were raided is because Indymedia is filled with, and used by anarchists. Obviously a more micro level reason is being used but this the larger reason.
./revolution
Federal law enforecement does not have to explain what is on the warrent. Feds just need to say we have probable cause that item X has evidentary value of violating Y. IF its a _sealed_ warrent they do not have to show you anything, you can ask if they have one, they might show you it but you cannot see it. To get a sealed warrent takes a lot of effort and it puts the officer, his/her department AND the judge who signed the order in a position of responsibility, its an attempt at checks and ballances. You have to name what you want to get on the warrent, and it gives them the right to enter your place.
The documentary on them was frightening.
So then you wouldn't have any problem if Wal-Mart started posting the names, addresses, and telephone numbers of all of their customers on their website? It's not illegal for them to do so!
Sorry dude, if you want to argue about privacy rights you have to argue for them across the board, not just when you want to.
'Standards' in computing only impress those who are impressed by things like 'standards'.
I'm sure they like to believe that. But a few minutes of pouring over their stupid conspiracy theories will show that they are anything but free thinkers. They are in fact weak-minded people who are easily manipulated into believing rediculous things. Being so easily manipulated, they allow themselves to also be manipulated into believing that their rediculous notions are also more intelligent than those of the "schtoopid" sheep-like masses, when in fact just the opposite is true.
http://www.sealandgov.com/m /
http://www.havenco.co
Freedom: "I won't!"
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I can't wait until I can afford to move the fuck out of the US. This is total fucking bullshit.
1st Ammendment - down the toilet in Bush's Amerikkka
and China and basically anywhere that sticks two fingers up to the fucking US of Assholes.
http://slashdot.org/~GuyFawkes/journal
"Then who would be next, slashdot?"
/. goes down we can find out why, and if it's $GOVERNMENT_AGENCY we can commence burning their servers to the ground in retaliation. All the guns nuts on here would also no doubt love a reason to go out shooting...
We really need some backup site, so if
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Nobody's exactly sure why or how the FBI got warrants to take Indymedia's HDs, but their speculation tends to center around the fact that the Feds were spooked by the fact that Indymedia was able to publish RNC delegate names. This unfortuantely means political motivations are going to be questioned no matter what reasoning is brought forward.
When Neal Horsley published the names of abortion doctors, people said it was a "hit list" why is this any different?
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
I hope the articles wrong about that...
UK Laptops
indoctrinated by communist teachers
Hmmm... which teachers were those? The ones who keep shirts with Che Guevara underneath their street clothes... the ones who shut the door to the classroom quietly, then don furry caps with a star and sickle... the ones who march the students around the courtyard and have the body address him as Comrade!?
Jesus fucking Christ, would you get a clue? What is it with people and equating non-conservative with communism... hell, equating getting an education with communism.
When was the last time you've actually been around a college campus anyway? If anyone is spreading little-c or big-c communism, it's the students themselves, not teachers.
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
Genfer Ermittler rund um G-8-Unruhen reichen Klage ein
GENF - Zwei Genfer Ermittler, welche die Untersuchungen rund um die G-8-Ausschreitungen vom Juni 2003 leiten, haben Klage gegen Unbekannt eingereicht. Ihre Fotos sind auf der französischen Internetseite von Indymedia-Nantes publiziert worden.
Der Sprecher der Genfer Kantonspolizei bestätigte einen entsprechenden Bericht des Westschweizer Radios RSR. Nebst den Fotos hat das alternative Internet-Portal zudem den Namen und die Adresse des einen Inspektors publiziert.
Die Verbreitung von nicht autorisierten Fotos stellt laut Polizei eine Verletzung des Persönlichkeitsschutzes dar. Die französischen Verwalter der fraglichen Internet-Seite erklärten ihrerseits, die Fotos retouchiert zu haben, um die beiden Männer unkenntlich zu machen.
Die Bilder wurden bereits am 22. September publiziert. Das Internet als Medium hat bereits früher für Polemiken gesorgt. Die Polizei hatte nach den Unruhen auf ihrer Homepage Bilder von mutmasslichen Krawallmachern publiziert, was zu heftigen Reaktionen führte.
The FBI ordered a US-based company to pull for them hard drives that are at that company's England-located facilities. The FBI didn't actually do the pulling in England, but they forced the US-based office into sending the order with the warrant.
Check out the Infoshop story (found via Google News). Turns out Rackspace has indeed been instructed not to comment on this.
It was a group called American Coalition of Life Advocates (ACLA). A good description is at Gigalaw.
Fight Spammers!
I don't think you know what it means.
Well, either that or your an asshat. Probably the latter.
And don't you go writing off my criticism to not living in New York City. My whole fucking family is from New York, and most of them still live there.
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
Due to the flaws in the /. moderation system, I think it unwise for me to reply to each of my detractors individually. Through hard experience I know that my IP may be banned if I receive multiple down mods on multiple posts in the same subthread. So in this post I am replying to (and quoting below) each detractor/responder:
Someone wrote:
2.) We don't generalize an entire cross-section of people in succinct little sentences meant to insult people (i.e., the false "know your place" bullshit).
I generalize for expediency. I think my generalization much more true than false.
3.) There exists this magical world in which people AREN'T Republican or Democrat and view both of your scumsucking proven liar candidates as idiots who don't deserve to be President.
Indeed, 50% of Americans do not vote, but the people of whom you speak are a very small minority.
Then why do you want to raise taxes and socialize the nation's programs? Seems to me, that's taking stuff OUT of the citizens' and employers' hands.
Well, I see high taxes on the wealthy and upper income earners as rent due to the citizens as a whole. Pay unto Caesar, etc., where Caesar is the people, not the leaders, or the govt itself. America is a business, but one where the owner is absentee, and a small percent of the owners are ripping off the rest of us.
The rest of your comment was flamebait. So people on the Right view humans as animals and follow animal traditions? Wtf?
We are all animals. Period. The difference is that the secular Left admits it, and wants to move on to a higher, more rational plane.
Are you denying that there is a forced rigid heirichy in the government system with lots of "i scratch your back, you scratch mine" people and lots of ass kissing and fakers out there with back stabbing gallore. Pack animals, yes, ask any socialigist/biologist and they will concur the similarity, you cannot deny it dude. Maybe we cannot avoid that, but we can add extra logical none currupt decision processes into it to make it fair and transparent, not contract based and locked in a safe.
I see govt as a tool, a machine. And machines can be improved, modified, engineered, made better. The early models always suck. But what we have here in America, is that the richest and most powerful PROFIT from poor and primitive models of govt, and they have spewed out decades of propaganda convincing Americans (the owners) that the primitive models of this govt machine are the best models. Ah, the power of marketing/advertising/propaganda...
Just look at Michael Moore fans who believe his every word despite when his films get torn to shreds in the fact department.
Right now, Moore is the only prominent Leftist IN America! You better believe we keep track of him.
Rofl..."minimizes heirarchy?" People on the left are traditionally in favor of BIGGER GOVERNMENT.
We are in favor of getting back the wealth of America that the investor robber barons and corporations are stealing. That is a very powerful coalition, and we will need a lot of muscle to wrest away from them what is ours.
That runs directly contrary to your flamebait. And people on the right traditionally favor SMALLER GOVERNMENT. Why do you think Democrats raise taxes while Republicans cut taxes?
To hire our own goons?
I could just as well say "You on the Left seek comfort in a society where all your property, business, and social programs are owned by the government, and majority rule is overridden by the demands of a minute few." It would be no less of a braindead generalization on politics than yours.
We seek security and peace and a relaxed life where stress is lessened by pooling our resources to help make the future more secure for everyone.
Life is short. Make it a g
eat shiat and bark at the moon
WTF??? This gets mod'ed to flamebait and the post
all depends on your perspective (Score:5, Insightful)
by Cryofan (194126)
hmmmmmmmm
Why is it that a site so proudly "independant" is so rigidly uniform in it's content?
If the National Post (rigidly right wing Canadian paper) will publish Linda McQuaig and others, why aren't there any divergent viewpoints on Indymedia?
you need to wake up.
broad generalizations are usually incorrect (just like that one) -- but not this time!
see: http://www.nationalreview.com/kerry/kerry200410051 802.asp
yes, yes, it's a republican publication - but you'll find links to many 3rd party news sources.
seems plenty of lefties rationalize the violence/vandalism. but it's not random..
a 'neato' conspiracy charge is in the works for the AFL/CIO as over 10 simultaneous attacks on bush/ch. campaign offices happened throughout florida. Assault, battery, b&e, destruction of prop., threats of bodily harm
- yeah, uh huh, you're right.
If she floats, she's a witch.
Go complain to the Brits. That is the country that ultimately allowed them to seize these drives.
I would think we would e able to learn more from a warrant if this were the case.
You don't understand sarcasm, hand in your geek card to the authorities or we will take away all your pr0n.
Considering that the US still has thousands of nuclear weapons, and more conventional arms than the whole rest of the world combined, that is a terrible thought to contemplate.
Request your free CD of my piano music.
Given that the demographics behind Indymedia and behind various open-source projects overlaps to significant degree, it's the virtually only possible reaction to the mounting pressure.
a classic fbi hidden probe for dissidents. !!!
The FBI isn't in the bussiness of
You'd be surprised, sonny-boy. Google FBI and "Martin Luther King" to see what your friendly local All-american Gestapo is capable of. Hint:"Kill yourself."
The first amendment guarantees the right to hold stupid, idiotic political opinions. If you don't like it, there are other countries with different constitutions, feel free to emigrate. Personally, I like the Bill of Rights just fine, thank you.
It would seem strange for an American agency to get a warrant to seize information relating to Swiss undefcover police from a French website...
but honestly i don't think many terrorists post on /.
/.? We have internet connections too you know!
Just got back to my cave...
Now what did you say about terrorists not posting on
Yeah we'll stop making billions of dollars a day because we don't accept US money anymore. Don't forget US currency is still the most counterfeited.
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
NPR has a copy of the photo of the undercover Swiss police here
The first amendment guarantees the right to hold stupid, idiotic political opinions. If you don't like it, there are other countries with different constitutions, feel free to emigrate. Personally, I like the Bill of Rights just fine, thank you.
The first amendment guarantees the right to hold stupid, idiotic political opinions. If you don't like it, there are other countries with different constitutions, feel free to emigrate. Personally, I like the Bill of Rights just fine, thank you.
The first amendment guarantees the right to hold stupid, idiotic political opinions. If you don't like it, there are other countries with different constitutions, feel free to emigrate. Personally, I like the Bill of Rights just fine, thank you.
Request your free CD of my piano music.
+1 for humor and accuracy.
-
Is This the America I Love?
From the essay:Request your free CD of my piano music.
- Mr. President, I have 2 questions. First, where are the Iraq's WMD? And second, where's Bin Laden?
After a few seconds of embarrassing silence, Bush was "saved by the bell", and the room was quickly emptied. After the break, another student, this one named Peter, was given the word:
- Mr. President, I have 2 questions. First, why the bell rang 20 minutes earlier? And second, where is Bob?!?
Funny or insightful? A few years ago this would be a "Soviet Russia" kind of joke...
If you can read this, thank an english teacher.
The list of Democratic National Convention delegates is on the Democratic National Convention website. (Look at the entries for each state.) The Republicans have been heavily criticized for keeping their delegate list a secret.
-fred
Sign #11 of Slashdot overdose: You see the phrase 'moderate Republican' and you wonder if that would be a +1 or a -1.
- http://www.indymedia.org/
But they say lots of the local indymedia sites are still down.Request your free CD of my piano music.
While Ryan Lackey was still there, you could probably count on being safe from the authorities. But one of the reasons he left was because the "royalty" of Sealand did not hold to his same level of confidentiality commitment. They weren't willing to risk their somewhat shaky legal status as a country, and would give up data if pressure was applied appropriately. This is of course all my personal understanding of the situation, anyone more familar with it is by all means welcome to clairify... Regardless, if I had data I didn't want siezed I wouldn't do it there. Probably somewhere in the former Soviet Union or something.
ehintz
"The last few months have seen numerous attacks on independent media by the US Federal Government. In August the Secret Service used a subpoena in an attempt to disrupt the NYC IMC before the RNC by trying to get IP logs from an ISP in the US and the Netherlands, last month the FCC shut down comunity radio stations around the US, and now the FBI is shutting down IMCs around the world." [bolding mine]
First they use the term "independent media" non-capitalized, making it sound like a variety of organizations, but then they only list attacks on IMC aka Indymedia. They're using plays on their name to make the problem look a lot worse than it is. Perhaps there are attacks on other organizations, but they haven't listed any just there own, yet they make it sound like there are. Their feeble attempt at putting a spin on the whole affair makes it more suspicious that they're the only target and NOT independent media in general, and in the end, makes the whole article suspicious.
Apples and oranges.
Indymedia definitely has an agenda. There is no question about this, and that agenda is to tell those stories which the National Post will never, ever touch. Linda McQuaig, as admirable as her socialist/Marxist thinking is, remains little more than a showpiece to give a lousy paper some legitimacy. (They call it, 'controversy' and they use it in a large part to sell ad spots.) Indymedia doesn't need to do this. Their primary concern is not money-making or winning false legitimacy.
Linda McQuaig is also carried in the National Post for another reason; so that people can ask exactly the question you asked; so that they can feel as though there is a legitimate reason to scorn and ignore alternative news sources.
But I think that this is unwise. Linda McQuaig will not, for instance, be allowed to report on the true events happening in Israel. Canwest Global, (which owns the National Post), has been caught re-wording stories about the war on Palestine so that unaware readers will want to favor the Israelis.
Indymedia and other alternative news sources are needed exactly because they do not fall beneath the control of such influences. Or, at least, that was true until the FBI entered the scene.
-FL
the bane of slashdot.
A few loudmouth idiots can overtake the whole debate.
Sounds more like they're throwing you a sop. Something to distract from the real issues.
1. If the US can send FBI overseas - e.g. to Norway to arrest the DeCSS kid on behalf of Sony, or the Afghanistan, or Iraq (all of which they have done) - there's no reason to believe that they won't act as agents for foreign governments or private parties while they're within the US.
B. Remember that the Bush-ites have a history of trying to close down various internet sites that they consider unsupportive of their regime going all the way back to the 1999/2000 campaign when they convinced the FEC to intervene on their behalf over the ... what was it, gwbush.com ?
No, I'd say that the RNC wanting to reserve those "journalists" that are supporting the coup and kowtowing to the regime the "right" to publish the names and home addresses of their "enemies" is a far more plausible explanation than any imaged Swiss agents.
Some one should cruise the RNC databases and see how many Right-wing militias are holding maps the homes of the protest organizers....
This is just another nail in the coffin of Speech in the US. It's not coincidence what the FCC is doing with indy radio while all this is going on, either.
Where are those data havens when you need them, gentlemen?
Here's a quote from a page I ran across while looking for references to back up my bullshit - stlightly OT, perhaps, but interesting, nonetheless:
I think he's talking about those people that the FBI are no accusing of "intimidating" the RNC.
If the RNC and their cops and their "agents" didn't notice the fact that they were out-numbered something like 1000 to 1 by people who were there at their own expense for no reason other than to show that they disagreed with the RNC - tiny minority of right-wingers who are ruling/running the country ... they must be on some seriously good shit, anyway (is that why Rush likes Oxycotin?). The kind of shit that lets them continue to believe that they are have some kind of a divine mandate to rule...
"The Internet is made of cats."
from
http://www.indymedia.org/en/index.shtml
FBI Seizes IMC Servers in the UK
Thursday morning, US authorities issued a federal order to Rackspace ordering them to hand over Indymedia web servers to the requesting agency. Rackspace, which provides hosting services for more that 20 Indymedia sites at its London facility, complied and turned over the requested servers, effectively removing those sites from the internet.
Since the subpoena was issued to Rackspace and not to Indymedia, the reasons for this action are still unknown to Indymedia. Talking to Indymedia volunteers, Rackspace stated that "they cannot provide Indymedia with any information regarding the order." ISPs have received gag orders in similar situations which prevent them from updating the concerned parties on what is happening.
It is unclear to Indymedia how and why a server that is outside the US jurisdiction can be seized by US authorities.
At the same time an additional server was taken down at Rackspace which provided streaming radio to several radio stations, BLAG (linux distro), and a handful of miscellanous things.
The last few months have seen numerous attacks on independent media by the US Federal Government. In August the Secret Service used a subpoena in an attempt to disrupt the NYC IMC before the RNC by trying to get IP logs from an ISP in the US and the Netherlands. Last month the FCC shut down community radio stations around the US. Two weeks ago the FBI requested that Indymedia takes down a post on the Nantes IMC that had a photo of some undercover Swiss police and IMC volunteers in Seattle were visited by the FBI on the same issue. On the other hand, Indymedia and other independent media organisations were successfull with their victories for example against Diebold and the Patroit Act. Today however, the US authorities shut down IMCs around the world.
The list of affected local media collectives includes Ambazonia, Uruguay, Andorra, Poland, Western Massachusetts, Nice, Nantes, Lilles, Marseille (all France), Euskal Herria (Basque Country), Liege, East and West Vlaanderen, Antwerpen (all Belgium), Belgrade, Portugal, Prague, Galiza, Italy, Brazil, UK, part of the Germany site, and the global Indymedia Radio site.
2004 is 1984. Any information Big Brother doesn't like will be put down a memory hole. Fascism has come to America, wrapped in the American Flag, and the blitzkrieg has even begun against other nations.
How ya like dat?
We don't know what happened yet, or why. Everything is just speculation. The few details we have come from indymedia itself, which, quite frankly, I don't trust, especially when the matter concerns indymedia.
There was a warrant issued, so there was some reason for it. This would have been possible even without the so-called PATRIOT act. So far, I see no evidence of abuse of power.
If you had super powers, would you use them for good, or for awesome?
IANAL But
1) Surely the aggrevied party should talk/communicate to site before calling in the dogs.
2) The Judge who issued the warrant should have asked is all this necessary, & lawful? Helping another country is all well and good, but not if internationl law is made up on the fly - act on precedent, not gut feelings and shonky assertions.
3) Grabbing 'everything' is overly broad. Turning off the tap/takedown is one thing, but seizing the drives. Think Constitution, think Ammendments.
4) America earns good foreign income from such hosting. By acting so, sites may mirror/host offshore in future - more American IT jobs lost, unless we encourage hot backup sites.
5) Sue those involved. Have lawyers licences struck off, if reckless statutory declarations without correct paperwork was acted upon. Public European officials should be personally sued, if there is such scope. Rule of evidence says is heresay likely, if they(foreigners) cannot be hauled up and produced in a US court.
The warrant should be public record now, complete with names. Someone should post it for analysis.
Actually, they are independent in nearly every sense of the word.
They are also biased in at least one sense of the word.
Fox News is certainly not independent in most senses of the word. Their degree of bias will be left as an exercise to the reader.
-fred
Sign #11 of Slashdot overdose: You see the phrase 'moderate Republican' and you wonder if that would be a +1 or a -1.
They may not strive to present all points of view as equally valid, but they most certainly are independent.
If 20 people call the police and Say I'm a bookie, and the police get a warrant. They can ask for a warant to take my records and computers and examine them. This isn't the same as being convicted.
How would you feel if when you got home from work, your hosue had been ransacked and your neighbour told you that the police came and confiscated a load of equipment and didn't give a reason?
[not an exact analogy with indymedia finding out from their hosting company that hard disks were seized, but close enough i think]
I don't disagree with warrants, searches, or investigations. I do disagree with seizure of property without a reason being given.
Followup question: if he doesn't step down, what will the military do?
Request your free CD of my piano music.
THE ONE WAY CONVERSATION FROM WHITE HOUSE MOUNTAIN ©
..."
The President's Pearls of Propaganda Go Kaput
"You have to accept that if you are working on women's rights, you will face problems. The main obstacle is the security issue as a whole. There are a lot of obstacles. Everyone knows well the language of guns and war. Even entering the door of [this office], that itself is a grave risk." Women's rights activist, Kabul, August 24, 2004
"The dominance of armed political factions and continuing attacks by the Taliban and other insurgent forces have greatly impeded women's participation in the public sphere, and also present grave obstacles to implementing desperately needed women's development projects, including education, health, and income-generating programs. When insurgent forces or armed factions attack a women's rights NGO staff member or the office of a women-focused development project--they affect the provision of services and opportunities to dozens and sometimes hundreds of women. This intimidation is often symbolic, as with attacks on girls' schools, and it creates an atmosphere of fear sending a message to women, girls, and their families that they may be targeted if they participate in these programs. Local commanders, Taliban, and other insurgent forces have attacked dozens of girls' schools in the past two years.
"Attacks, Intimidation, and Threats Against Women's Rights Activists"
Every time George W. Bush or Dick Cheney talk about the wonders of Afghanistan I want to scream.
When they talk about Iraq I do.
These two should get an award for their fantasy spin.
What a perk it must be to have one way conversations about everything.
President Bush gave us more of that yesterday, in his "big speech" in Philadelphia. Saying the things he couldn't say in last Thursday's debate, because no one had yet written them down for him to say.
Bush talks.
We're forced to listen.
Force-fed his political pearls of presidential propaganda, brought down from on high by way of White House Mountain.
It's the reason George W. Bush has gotten away with political murder for so long.
However, as everyone saw last Thursday night.
When John Kerry turned George W. Bush into a political pull toy.
Once you've got someone talking back, talking tough and telling the truth.
Fantasy and fiction get pulverized pretty quickly.
As many voters and interested Americans found out last week, John Kerry isn't the man the president's people have been pushing in Bush-Cheney commercials or through their presidential pimps.
And last night, people found out what Dick Cheney has been doing for over two years.
Lying. That's the truth.
Dick Cheney said he was meeting Edwards for the first time last night.
It sounded odd... Come to find out they've met on numerous occasions, including backstage at "Meet the Press."
Dick Cheney said he presided over the Senate on Tuesdays, but never saw Edwards.
It sounded authoritative... Come to find out that Cheney's only presided over the Senate a couple of times.
But the WHOPPER of the night came when our Vice President had the unmitigated gall to say he never said Saddam was connected to 9/11.
When Tim Russert pressed Mr. Cheney about linking 9/11 to Saddam, Dick backed him off saying, "Now I didn't say that."
But there's a reason that for months and months and months leading up to the Iraq war, around 60% of the American people believed Saddam had something to do with 9/11.
The intent of statements matters in the game of truth. Using words to craft a message without stating something specifically is what politics is all about. Just ask the men now residing at White House Mountain.
No one can doubt what W. and Dick's intentions have been.
No one can doubt what these men were trying to do when they let fly those frightening rhetorical pictures about Saddam's nucle
Patriot act : 1, Bill of Rights : 0 I love it when this sorta stuff happens. Where is the ACLU in all of this, thier property was seized without any reason given? The BS detector is reading a 9.5
i saw our Mayo (John Street, Philly) and his son during the DNC and they were there as delegates.... i think the Governer was there too and who knows what other people.
how do you get that job anyway? i can't remember offhand..... i would assume somebody in the party gives it to you for being special.
If these are the people who ultimately elect my President why do I not have a right to know exactly who they are? And why would my (the represented's) knowledge serve as a threat in any form or fashion?
The next thing you know, someone will be explaining why we shouldn't release the President's name to the public for security reasons.....
And yes, I'm absolutely certain the original post was sarcastic. Go back and look closely and you'll have to agree.
hey, i'm not going to take a side, except to say that it'd be awesome if we knew what was going on here. a prominent critic of a sitting president has been silenced, setting a bad precedent. furthermore, they did not charge the critic, but subpeona'd the ISP. that's not good.
so, let's force the people with access to start asking questions.
nytimes
newsweek
o'reilly
msnbc
plus you can go to various other websites and fill out their forms--CNN, for example.
again, no sides taken, but let's try and cause a stink--this is a big deal. I'll even make it easy for you--copy'n'paste!
The FBI has effectively shut down Indymedia.org (IMC) by issuing an order to RackSpace US to hand over server hard drives located in London. As a result, over 20 local Indymedia sites have been shut off. At this time, no one knows why the FBI wants the drives or what they are investigating. It is also unclear why Rackspace US complied with a demand for materials held by Rackspace UK. Indymedia is a vocal critic of the Bush Administration, and also of the mass media. There is some history of this administration's dislike of Indymedia: before the RNC, there was a Secret Service order to shut down nyc.indymedia.org, which was organizing protests. More information can be found at the general Indymedia site, http://www.indymedia.org.
london is drowning and i live by river
They "arrange" it by phoning up rackspace and demanding hard drives, looks like. And, due to a treaty we signed last year sometime, extradition requests from the US don't even go before an english court anymore, which is nice. Fucking fuckers. Get aaht!
If you wanted to argue this properly, you should have chosen a more appropriate analogy; Juror privacy for instance. As it is, you have been modded troll and you will probably just blame that on 'those damned leftist slashdot hippy moderators' right?
First raided by the FBI, then /.ed..
"You lied to me! There is a Swansea!"
And owner of 4/5 of the IMC UK, DNS and mail servers, I'm quite startled to get back from the pub to this. Couple of interesting links: The global view The local view
Tim Brown
You get off your lazy ass, lardbucket.
Request your free CD of my piano music.
It probably won't be up for long. I bet within a day or two the backups will be siezed, along with all information that could be used to reconstruct the site. If you are going to shut down a site, you don't let them restore it from backups.
The Declaration of Independence
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.
Constitution
Preamble to the Bill of Rights
Bill of Rights
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Amendment II
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Amendment III
BLAG Linux (no they're not slashdotted, just gotta wait for the new location to go through the DNS) too suffered from this, as they were hosted on the same server. WHY SHOULD A TOTALLY UNRELATED SITE END UP SUFFERING FROM THIS?!?! I don't exactly like what happened at Indymedia either with FBI, etc. etc. Sheesh, you ever notice that if you rearange the letters in FBI, you get fib?
s.clementmonkey@sympatico.ca, remove the 'monkey'.
What with all the wild rants on /. it can be a bit hard to tell what is sarcastic, especially on these politics-related subjects.
please don't take my pr0n...
Don't you hate meta-sigs?
This is all rather interesting. The issue with the RNC delegate postings happened back in August so, while it may have something to do with the drive confiscation, I am not sure how to prove it.
The original issue was really quite moot as most Indymedia sites have logging turned off. Basically, the web access logs are useless.
The international connections of this whole affair are difficult to determine. Did the hosting company simply turn over a disk located overseas to the FBI? This is very odd.
I publish photos on Indybmedia sites (as they have open publishing) but I am not very involved in their day-to-day operations.
This "unknown" reason as to why the FBI took the hardrives/servers from Rackspace was more than likely given to Rackspace. However, probably due to some obscure clause to the Patriot Act that allows Britain and the US to work together or something to "fight terror" - the Feds can gag Rackspace from revealing that reason. Or even worse, the Fed's probably don't even need a reason other than "National Security - now shutup and hand over the hard drives".
Hey, those that make the rules and enforce the rules can, essentially, do what ever they want and there is not a damned thing "Joe Citizen" can do about it.
And to those of you that think the wheels of a brave new orwellian world aren't already in motion: nothing to see here, go back to sleep.
Authority questions you. Return the favor.
Would Karl Rove, the man George W. Bush nicknamed "Turd Blossom", do something destructive to get George W. Bush re-elected? The books say he would.
Books about those who designed
the Bush administration's deliberate dishonesty
There are many excellent people in the Republican political party in the United States. But there is are people who say they are Republicans who might be called "Re-money-cans". (There is no "public" in Remoneycan.) They are only interested in money and power and they achieve them by using dishonesty as a tool. For example, the Remoneycans have been running advertisements on U.S. television claiming that George W. Bush is a more experienced military leader than John Kerry, who opposes him for the 2004 presidential election. During times when people in the U.S. feel threatened, a large percentage of them feel that violence is the only answer, and the ads manipulate that feeling. The ads may be very convincing if the viewer does not know the truth, that John Kerry is much more experienced, as the Military Service Records for Bush and Kerry show. Also see the essay Bush's Military Records Show He Shirked.
Boy Genius: Karl Rove, The brains behind the remarkable political triumph of George W. Bush by Lou Dubose, Jan Reid, and Carl M. Cannon, 2003, PublicAffairs. Reviews: Powell's Barnes & Noble Amazon
The secret of Karl Rove's success is that U.S. voters don't want to believe there is widespread corruption in their government. Therefore, if lies are extreme enough, they will be accepted.
President George W. Bush has a habit of giving disrespectful nicknames to those with whom he works. "Boy Genius" is one of President Bush's nicknames for Karl Rove. President Bush also calls Karl Rove, "Turd Blossom". The term refers to a flower that grows in the feces of a cow.
Bush's Brain: How Karl Rove made George W. Bush presidential by James Moore and Wayne Slater, 2003, John Wiley & Sons, New York, New York, USA. Reviews: Powell's Barnes & Noble Amazon
An Amazon review about the present U.S. president, George W. Bush, quotes the book: "Karl Rove matters to all Americans, many who have never even heard his name. While the president chafes at the description of Rove as 'Bush's Brain,' he can hardly deny that every policy and political decision either goes through, or comes from, the consultant," write the authors, leading them to pose the question, "Who really runs this country?"
Bad Boy: The life and politics of Lee Atwater by John Brady, 1997, Addison-Wesley Publishing Company, Reading, Massachusetts. Reviews: Barnes & Noble Amazon
Lee Atwater and Karl Rove worked together, but Lee died of a brain tumor when he was 40. Mr. Atwater also had no interest in government policy, but only in how to get someone elected. For example, see the top of page 103 of the hardcover edition: "Indeed, Lee had no interest in the policy loop." Another quote, about his sexual involvement with women other than his wife, from page 151: "He [Lee Atw
I can understand the FBI being able to enforce such action in the United States but who the fuck do they think they are ordering companies in England to do their bidding, and don't start with any of this 51st state bullshit.
Shame on you RackSpace.
Voltaire: 'I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.'
Does my post constitute the feeding of a troll? I wonder.
Self-referential sigs are rarely entertaining.
I'm going to write to my MP regarding this act of invasion and demand the recall of our ambassador.
>>>>truth; beauty; unix.<<<<
Knock, knock...
Who's there?
The US Government.
The US Government who?
The US Government - none of your fncking business - now hand over the hard drives.
(The sad part is, this isn't a joke. Welcome to room 101.)
Authority questions you. Return the favor.
"Fact" did you say? --You must have your own definition for the word, 'objective', then. The only 'studies' I've read which support the election theft used broken logic, left out details, and employed falsehoods.
It'd be interesting to know how you feel about Diebold.
Look at recent news. Shots were fired into a Bush-Cheney headquarters in Knoxville, Tennessee. In Orlando, Florida, Democratic fanatics attacked a Republican party headquarters.
I see. I noticed that there were no witnesses to the shooting incident, and that, quote. .
Interesting. . ? If a false-flag op worked on 9-11, then why not employ the same tactics on the small scale?
I could be wrong. After all, when I copied your words, "Orlando, Florida, Democratic fanatics attacked a Republican party headquarters" into Google, I got nothing back. Perhaps you were over-stating the event?
The chilling effect of these attacks is why, with the two candidates fairly equal in the polls, you see far fewer Bush stickers on cars than Kerry stickers. Bush supporters legitimately fear a rock through their windshield from all these crazed Democrats. Check NationalReview.com for an article on this "Climate of Fear."
Yeah, or. . . the polls are false and support for Bush is actually lower than it is made to appear. After all, you can't stage another stolen election unless the race is nice and tight.
the very decent, honest and non-violent swift boat veterans.
Whoa there! Correct me if I'm wrong in this. . . (The website you posted to didn't have the link to "The Real Story" functioning and I couldn't get the movie to play. At least I was able to read the transcript.)
It sounded like Kerry was describing the barbaric actions of U.S. soldiers in Vietnam. --And that the Swiftboat vets, far from denying what he was saying, seemed instead to be complaining that his describing these bloody actions was somehow traitorous because it lowered their moral. (Did I interpret this correctly, and if so, what is your problem here? I am baffled as to why you would include this item at all. Are you suggesting that it is okay to murder civilians during war but not okay to blow whistles about it? Please help me understand this.)
My greatx4 grandfather and one of his daughters were murdered during the Civil War for opposing Southern succession in NW Alabama. My greatx3 grandfather was murdered for voting Republican in 1874 when Southern Democrats were as rabid about winning by any means as national Democrats are today.
Well, the definitions of 'Democrat' and 'Republican', as I understand the rules of that silly snowball match, have changed sides over the last couple of centuries. I can't somehow see one of today's Democrats defending the secession of the slaver state of Alabama.
In any case, your family's personal history can only be taken you at your word, but if your peculiar version of political blindness and deliberately provocative attitudes run in the blood, then I can somewhat understand how your ancestors might have run afoul of some crazy Americans with guns.
Democrate or Republican. Both will do us in. One will just take four years longer.
-FL
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
Consider, for a moment, that this has nothing to do with Republican/Democrap or Bush/Kerry BS. What if some group was using this serive to distribute terrorist information? What if there was data related to a child pornography ring. What if a drug cartel was using this service as a way to covertly send trafficing information?
While I tend to be more of a republican than a democrat, I have to STAND UP AND LAUGH at all of the dipshits posting what they believe to be facts and truths about America, George Bush, and the Republic party. Truth be told, I think I would much rather have Bush in office that "Kerry" the lier who is ONLY in it for himself. He will tell anyone ANYTHING just to get people on his side. Just look at his voting record. COME ON PEOPLE.
ok, rant is over. While it is likely this may have some political connection, we should not jump to conclusions.
Congratulations, you've earned yourself a stalker on kuro5hin.
Police going to a judge to get a warrant.
Did you know that it's been documented that several different judges around the US have warrants and some other documents that are supposed to be seriously considered and evaluated before being given to the police just stuck in their desk pre-signed with instructions to whomever to just pick one up when they want one?
Funny thing about abuse of power, it really gets going strong when lazy people won't do their job to prevent overzelous freaks from stomping on the public.
Honestly, the consequence of the name release people showing up in various consumes and annoying the delegates:
t hree-ring-circus.html
. html
http://www.basetree.com/photos/no-rnc/republican-
Big deal, and in any case the list of names was reposted from the Tampa Tribune (and other sources):
http://www.tampatrib.com/FloridaMetro/MGBLDGQ6LXD
Disclosure: I occasionally post photos to Indymedia but I have nothing do with the day-to-day operations. In other words: I know nothing!
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Neither are most of the people on the list, dipshit.
Most people on welfare got there because in unfettered capitalism people are disposable assets and jobs are mobile. All the same, the majority stay a brief time on the dole before they get back on their feet.
Welfare abuse happens, but is no reason to scrap compassionate assistance entirely -- what's wrong with improving the infostructure of welfare to make abuse more difficult?
But this is not the real low-hanging fruit if you want to get frugal with your tax dollars. I'd start with the obscene amounts pissed away on no-bid padded contracts for Cheney's cronies.
That is, I can see what it had to do with Germany, but I don't think it's at all fair to use that example to condemn socialist thinking. I very much doubt that the con-job which went down in Nazi Germany would have met with Marx's approval!
Basically, what I mean in regards to McQuaig is that she appears to abhor greed-motivated social policy. (See for example, this piece of hers on economics and the homeless.)
I think people who work against greed and injustice, deserve respect, and that those who deliberately ignore the lessons of kindergarten, (ie., how to share and play fairly; things we all instinctively know are right), are not worthy of respect. It seems to me that the primary thing which angers those of the conservative mind-set is simply their being told that they should not be allowed take and self-serve without limit, without regard to others or the world they live in.
I've yet to meet the diehard conservative who, with all else stripped away, is anything more than a selfish kid struggling to make-believe greed into something wholesome-sounding.
Anyway, with regards to Indymedia not being balanced in its view. . . This is true, but my thought is that Service-to-Self thinking is fundamentally structured in such a way that it is incompatible with Service-to-Other work, and after a point, it becomes in fact impossible for the two apporaches to accommodate each other at all.
--This is certainly a reflection of my own take on how reality works, and I don't expect everybody to agree with me. I see reality as a war zone between those who are seeking their higher selves and enlightenment, and those who are seeking their lower selves and the ultimate dissolution of the soul. I see the black hole as being the physical metaphor for self-service.
With these two types of people, as they say, "Never the twain shall meet".
-FL
...I hung out on a message thread on their site about 'Critical Mass'...which is basically where they all get together on their bikes and swarm some section of roadway to jam up traffic and thereby "raise awareness."
I like to ride my bike as much as I can, but I don't think pissing off drivers is a good form of awareness to raise...I'd rather they didn't notice me than were actively hostile.
I expected that telling them this wouldn't go down well, but I was surprised at how intolerant they were of anybody that so much as set foot in a car. They were calling down curses on my automobile and all manner of crazy stuff, with an almost relegious fervor.
These guys are so damaging to the perception of leftist idealolgy that I would almost suspect that they are Republicans in disguise out to make the left look bad.
At any rate, it looks like the righties might have decided that dragging these nutballs out into the light might help their cause. I'm sure said nutballs are doing a victory dance about all the 'awareness' they're generating.
If there is one thing I won't tolerate, its intolerance.
These people are as bad (or worse) as the people they claim to protect us from. While taking the moral high road to remove injustice is hard, it does not justify the kinds of actions these groups preach. In college, I attended a very liberal-based school. It was unique and consisted of qualified students who were taken from high school before they graduated and placed into an accredited college. In that aspect, many, including myself, didn't always understand the nuances of the propaganda they preached. One incident stuck in my head: A student had plastered "posters" all over campus that read "Oppress the oppressors". Having considered this for a second, I realized that this type of thinking only created a downward spiral as the oppressors become oppressed and the begins the cycle begins again. For those not familiar, read the lyrics of "The Trees" by Rush. "Now there's no more oak oppression, For they passed a noble law, And the trees are all kept equal By hatchet, axe, and saw."
They mod each other up, which gets them more karma, which gets them more mod points to mod each other up. It's a simple positive feedback loop, so no one should be surprised at the results.
Huh... Thats odd. Cryofan hasn't responded... I wonder what happend to him|her?
Hmm I wonder if the folks in the cuban concentration camp would agree with you.
Nantes (France) IMC
l e=3910
t es/copsi nnantes.htm
original posting: http://nantes.indymedia.org/article.php3?id_artic
dated Wed 8 September 2004
mirror (still works)
http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/mtoups/nan
Translation of text accompanying images of undercover officers
Photos of 2 cops in the anti-G8 cell
Geneva post-G8: videos, photos and testimony; everything helps on the trail of the rioters. A meticulous effort today to pursued by two detectives, who have made 200 arrests so far.
The [anti] G8 cell was nevertheless disbanded in December 2003. It has returned to service, much smaller: two detectives.
These detectives views films and photos received from informers and colleagues.
They go to demonstrations in Geneva where they hope to find "rioters."
Moreover, they take new photos in order to perhaps constitute a database of photos of activists susceptible of being future rioters in future riots in Geneva.
As one of the 2 detectives said: "I have seen two of my colleages lynched during anti-WTO demonstrations, in 1998. I will never forget it."
Perhaps there are other things that this detective will never forget. Because revenge is a dish best served cold.
1) Technically, if a UK server were brought down, it's probably not covered by our first amendment rights. (although I'd preferr that it were treated as if it were) Perhaps a case could be argued that our first amendment rights DO protect foreign media, if the media is available inside the USA -- at least protects that media from our own FBI. After all, (a) Indymedia UK is also American's independant media source about events inside the UK, and (b) the FBI is supposed to handle strictly internal (US) affairs. So if the FBI's doing the raid then our constitution should leash them.
..Or international mirror networks for server groups like indymedia.
2) If that raid had occurred inside the USA, it would have been unconsitutitional. It sounds as if the post [RNC delegate's addresses -- which was suggested to have been used to justify the raid] wasn't made by the Online Newspaper, but rather by a (potentially anonymous) member/forum poster.
It's the equivalent of shutting down the New York Times {indefinitely} just b/c somebody posted a classified add telling G.W.'s address. (you know, the oh-so-secret "black house" - the seat of our "shadow government")
I must emphasize that IF that was, in fact, the justification for the raid, then we should really be protesting it. Basically, there's no telling WHO posted the data on that server, and it would be a simplistic means of censorship, if the gov't were granted the right to take whole news media servers off the internet every time an anonymous forum member posted "sensetive" information.
Generally I believe we're better off inadvertantly allowing too much information on the net than stiffling free speach in the effort to keep hostil-ly posted personal information off the net.
However, I consider both efforts to be worthwhile.
Anyhow, this ultimately boosts the importance of things like freenet: www.freenet.org
"Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us." -Jesus Christ The Lord's Prayer
Furthermore, even if there had been personal information on the site, if that information was obtained legally, it is protected by the First Amendment. A recent case in Washington state held that an individual could post names and addresses of law enforcement officials obtained legally.
Regardless, the fact remains that the post in question had no personal information in it. When I spoke to the FBI agents, they admitted that there was absolutely nothing wrong with taking pictures of undercover officers in a public forum and posting them to a website. That is exactly what happened here.
While the server in the UK is subject to UK law, if a subpoena is served on a US corporation requesting information, and that information is located in some other country, the corporation is required to provide the information. Because Rackspace could not quickly locate the information, they decided to turn over the entire server.
Here is a copy of the article that was published that was the reason for the shutdown.
How Bush's grandfather helped Hitler's rise to power
Rumours of a link between the US first family and the Nazi war machine have circulated for decades. Now the Guardian can reveal how repercussions of events that culminated in action under the Trading with the Enemy Act are still being felt by today's president
Ben Aris in Berlin and Duncan Campbell in Washington
Saturday September 25, 2004
The Guardian
George Bush's grandfather, the late US senator Prescott Bush, was a director and shareholder of companies that profited from their involvement with the financial backers of Nazi Germany.
The Guardian has obtained confirmation from newly discovered files in the US National Archives that a firm of which Prescott Bush was a director was involved with the financial architects of Nazism.
His business dealings, which continued until his company's assets were seized in 1942 under the Trading with the Enemy Act, has led more than 60 years later to a civil action for damages being brought in Germany against the Bush family by two former slave labourers at Auschwitz and to a hum of pre-election controversy.
The evidence has also prompted one former US Nazi war crimes prosecutor to argue that the late senator's action should have been grounds for prosecution for giving aid and comfort to the enemy.
The debate over Prescott Bush's behaviour has been bubbling under the surface for some time. There has been a steady internet chatter about the "Bush/Nazi" connection, much of it inaccurate and unfair. But the new documents, many of which were only declassified last year, show that even after America had entered the war and when there was already significant information about the Nazis' plans and policies, he worked for and profited from companies closely involved with the very German businesses that financed Hitler's rise to power. It has also been suggested that the money he made from these dealings helped to establish the Bush family fortune and set up its political dynasty.
Remarkably, little of Bush's dealings with Germany has received public scrutiny, partly because of the secret status of the documentation involving him. But now the multibillion dollar legal action for damages by two Holocaust survivors against the Bush family, and the imminent publication of three books on the subject are threatening to make Prescott Bush's business history an uncomfortable issue for his grandson, George W, as he seeks re-election.
While there is no suggestion that Prescott Bush was sympathetic to the Nazi cause, the documents reveal that the firm he worked for, Brown Brothers Harriman (BBH), acted as a US base for the German industrialist, Fritz Thyssen, who helped finance Hitler in the 1930s before falling out with him at the end of the decade. The Guardian has seen evidence that shows Bush was the director of the New York-based Union Banking Corporation (UBC) that represented Thyssen's US interests and he continued to work for the bank after America entered the war.
Tantalising
Bush was also on the board of at least one of the companies that formed part of a multinational network of front companies to allow Thyssen to move assets around the world.
Thyssen owned the largest steel and coal company in Germany and grew rich from Hitler's efforts to re-arm between the two world wars. One of the pillars in Thyssen's international corporate web, UBC, worked exclusively for, and was owned by, a Thyssen-controlled bank in the Netherlands. More tantalising are Bush's links to the Consolidated Silesian Steel Company (CSSC), based in mineral rich Silesia on the German-Polish border. During the war, the company made use of Nazi slave labour from the concentration camps, including Auschwitz. The ownership of CSSC changed hands several times in the 1930s, but documents from the US National Archive declassified last year link Bush to CSSC, although it is not clear i
Here is the reason that the site was shutdown.
How Bush's grandfather helped Hitler's rise to power
Rumours of a link between the US first family and the Nazi war machine have circulated for decades. Now the Guardian can reveal how repercussions of events that culminated in action under the Trading with the Enemy Act are still being felt by today's president
Ben Aris in Berlin and Duncan Campbell in Washington
Saturday September 25, 2004
The Guardian
George Bush's grandfather, the late US senator Prescott Bush, was a director and shareholder of companies that profited from their involvement with the financial backers of Nazi Germany.
The Guardian has obtained confirmation from newly discovered files in the US National Archives that a firm of which Prescott Bush was a director was involved with the financial architects of Nazism.
His business dealings, which continued until his company's assets were seized in 1942 under the Trading with the Enemy Act, has led more than 60 years later to a civil action for damages being brought in Germany against the Bush family by two former slave labourers at Auschwitz and to a hum of pre-election controversy.
The evidence has also prompted one former US Nazi war crimes prosecutor to argue that the late senator's action should have been grounds for prosecution for giving aid and comfort to the enemy.
The debate over Prescott Bush's behaviour has been bubbling under the surface for some time. There has been a steady internet chatter about the "Bush/Nazi" connection, much of it inaccurate and unfair. But the new documents, many of which were only declassified last year, show that even after America had entered the war and when there was already significant information about the Nazis' plans and policies, he worked for and profited from companies closely involved with the very German businesses that financed Hitler's rise to power. It has also been suggested that the money he made from these dealings helped to establish the Bush family fortune and set up its political dynasty.
Remarkably, little of Bush's dealings with Germany has received public scrutiny, partly because of the secret status of the documentation involving him. But now the multibillion dollar legal action for damages by two Holocaust survivors against the Bush family, and the imminent publication of three books on the subject are threatening to make Prescott Bush's business history an uncomfortable issue for his grandson, George W, as he seeks re-election.
While there is no suggestion that Prescott Bush was sympathetic to the Nazi cause, the documents reveal that the firm he worked for, Brown Brothers Harriman (BBH), acted as a US base for the German industrialist, Fritz Thyssen, who helped finance Hitler in the 1930s before falling out with him at the end of the decade. The Guardian has seen evidence that shows Bush was the director of the New York-based Union Banking Corporation (UBC) that represented Thyssen's US interests and he continued to work for the bank after America entered the war.
Tantalising
Bush was also on the board of at least one of the companies that formed part of a multinational network of front companies to allow Thyssen to move assets around the world.
Thyssen owned the largest steel and coal company in Germany and grew rich from Hitler's efforts to re-arm between the two world wars. One of the pillars in Thyssen's international corporate web, UBC, worked exclusively for, and was owned by, a Thyssen-controlled bank in the Netherlands. More tantalising are Bush's links to the Consolidated Silesian Steel Company (CSSC), based in mineral rich Silesia on the German-Polish border. During the war, the company made use of Nazi slave labour from the concentration camps, including Auschwitz. The ownership of CSSC changed hands several times in the 1930s, but documents from the US National Archive declassified last year link Bush to CSSC, although it is not clear if he and UBC were still involved in the
The federal government has a LONG and storied history of illegal attempts to thwart political dissent. cointelprois only one of the most famous examples. The wars agaisnt political dissent continued through the 1990's and continues to this day.
To go from a few random acts of violence to soem conclusion that this justifies seizing IndyMedia's servers is more than a stretch. But luckily, under the Patriot Act, the feds don't actually have to go before a judge or produce any evidence or anything icky like that.
This entire country has recently been through a massive disinformation campaign (WMD's anyone?), most people should be more suspicious of an action of this kind, especially so close to national elections.
I'd wager that in a few months the Indymedia 'investigation' will quietly end with no charges being filed and no explainations given.
Unfortunately for whoever is coordinating this latest governmenteffort, dissent and public disbelief in Official Government Lies has pread far beyond the underground radical fringe. Heck, you can buy Fahrenheit 9/11 at WALMART... where they sell guns and everything.
If the Indymedia people are worth their salt as activists, they'll be able to parlay this government action into increased visibility and increased participation in their efforts.
-------- In Soviet Russia, "Soviet Russia" sigs hate Slashdot.
Swedish??????
ISTR that Sweden and Switzerland are separate countries - though I have both Swedish and Swiss ancestry...
A Shadeless room is a brighter room.
Congratulations, your post was rightfully knocked down. Lol. Everyone of your views is flawed and baseless, clearly driven into you by a cabal of liberal peers--and not necessarily your premises but your bizarre criticisms of the "righties" and how they "view people as animals," and other weird criticisms.
Again, replace your position with "Scientology" and you correctly appear as the kook you are. There is no difference between organized religion and political mindsets--ABSOLUTELY NONE.
Very little hierarchy, no central control, collective volunteer efforts towards a central purpose. Is there a problem?
-------- In Soviet Russia, "Soviet Russia" sigs hate Slashdot.
I asked them what the US government's interest was in Swiss police and French websites. They informed me that no law had been violated but they were just requesting on behalf of the Swiss government that the identifying information be removed. I clarified that their concern was with the identifying information, and not with the photographs, because taking pictures of someone in a public forum is not objectionable. They agreed with me and said that their only concern was the identifying information.
I asked them for the URL of the offending post. They did not know what a URL was. I asked them what the address was for the post-- "the address you would type into your internet browser." They looked confused, consulted their notes, and stated that they weren't sure, but they thought it was http://natz.indymedia.org (in fact, the correct address is nantes.indymedia.org). I informed them that it would be very difficult to track down the post considering that there are thousands of posts on indymedia sites everyday.
I told them that the Seattle Indymedia Center has no authority regarding the Nantes Indymedia Center and that they should probably direct their request directly to the Nantes Indymedia Center. They left.
I pulled up the Nantes site. On the front page of the site, at the very top, was a large logo of the FBI, and an article regarding how their ISP (Rackspace) had received a request from none other than the FBI to remove a certain post...
Nothing happened for a few days, and then today the server is gone. This is what we know for a fact:
Indymedia is working on a press release on this matter and is working with EFF to assess its legal options.
http://freenet.sourceforge.net/
"I worry about my child and the Internet all the time, even though she's too young to have logged on yet. Here's what I worry about. I worry that 10 or 15 years from now, she will come to me and say 'Daddy, where were you when they took freedom of the press away from the Internet?'"
--Mike Godwin, Electronic Frontier Foundation
I wish that more people would think things through, and you're certainly right about grandparent (though I think they were going for "funny" rather than "insightful" ... whatever).
And yet, there are plenty of people out there who do nothing but spout slogans when confronted with anything which might change their minds. I cannot count how many times I've heard about those abortion doctors when debating the subject, as though I were personally responsible for it, simply because I don't believe in killing anything that's alive and a member of the species homo sapiens... Somehow, they don't realize that I'm pro-LIFE, and don't believe in killing anyone (and no, I don't believe in the death penalty, either), and trot that old argument about abortion doctors, even though I personally consider them low-down, filthy rotten traitors to the pro-LIFE cause...
Alas, at this rate, I'll just wind up having to recast my beliefs as "anti-death" to confuse their sloganizing in the futile hope that a rational thought might someday occur to them...
The National Post is "rewriting" stories from Reuters who refuse to call terrorism what it is when Israelis get blown up.
When it's a 2 or 4 year old Israeli kid the terrorists are "militants." According to Reuters. They refuse to call Hamas or Hezbollah or Al Queda terrorists. They are "militants." NO kidding, you can go to their site and check it out.
Anti Semitism is a disease on the left, and it's a mark of ignorance. An Israeli politician wasn't allowed to speak at Canada's Concordia University because Anti-Semitism.
fascist tendencies of the american left.
Am I reading you correctly?
One of the indicators of Psychopathic tendency is to blame others for what the psychopath is guilty of her/himself.
How many Israeli houses and olive groves have the Palestinians bulldozed? (None.) Have Palestinan snipers been shooting teenaged girls in the head recently? (No.) How about destroying civilian water wells? (No.) How many suicide bombings have the Palestinian secret service performed and blamed on Israeli rebels in order to generate chaos and excuses to continue the war on civilians? (None.)
Don't believe it's possible? Perhaps you need to read up on mind control. It's easy to create, 'suicide bombers'. Like the US, Israel has its own secret detention centers to supply unwilling subjects for such operations. It's obviously an effective ploy because it fools people who think, "But they would never DO that!"
If you compare the times when 'suicide bombings' happen, it nearly always during a point when peace talks are looming, or tensions are easing. And the end results of a bombing NEVER benefits the Palestinians.
One way or another, when four of Israel's own security service chiefs cry out against Sharon's megalomaniacal policies, it means that something is wrong. It means that most people who claim that Israel is in the right, probably don't know the subject matter well enough to make such claims.
-FL
Unless I am mistaken, ladies and gentlemen, our friendly poster is calling you all simpletons.
I wonder how his belief that you are all stupid generally affects his moral behavior towards others?
A Conservative, is he? Hmm.
-FL
I'm not sure about the following ID of Chalabi, though.. looks a lot like David Ferry to me!</conspiratology>
.sigs: Just Say No!
Thank-you and Cheers!
-FL
IndyMedia doesn't claim to be unbiased... the site admits that it leans left.
Equals beeing left to beeing a terrorist or beeing unpatriotic?
What about this "Free Speech" thingie? Is this only for selected groups?
Dear USA,
you have a bigger problem than a fucked up foreign policy.
Restore your democracy first before you want to export your kind of democracy to other countrys!
Grundgesetz * 23. Mai 1949 - 30. November 2007 - http://www.vorratsdatenspeicherung.de/
You people can fix this without killing people, by simply voting with your head.
Do your kids a favor and bring back the principles that America was founded upon.
I know that is the idea behind "the right to bear arms", but do you really think this could happen in these modern days? Even if you felt that you should take out the ammo box, and you find enough like-minded-people (and "your local militia" is far from enough to overthrow the entire US army), don't you think you would be jailed for conspiracy first?
It's a naive question, I know...
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
1) Lincoln was a Republican. That's not a recent case, but you failed to qualify your statement with any such term. As the site said, had you read it, these were posted for anti-RNC types to harass. Even if there hadn't been harassment before, this action would seem to invite it. I suspect they're investigating the break-in as the crime, and who had the data when is ancillary to that point. I doubt it's criminal merely to post the information, unless you're also inciting some imminent illegal action against them, but it may still have some bearing on who got the information and how. And they would appear to be inciting illegal behavior towards the named individuals... Mind you, I am not a lawyer.
2) I wouldn't call those murderers "pro life" -- many of us who are actually pro life consider these people traitors. Yes, traitors. The rest of us are constantly blamed or otherwise improperly and illogically saddled guilt by association for their actions, they did nothing whatsoever to actually advance the cause of giving more people the right to live, which is fundamental to all rights ("rights" are meaningless when you're dead), and they have done more to harm our position than our idealogical opponents alone could ever have done. I'm tempted to start calling myself "anti death" until people see the difference. Your post shows why that is so hard. I would appologize for their actions, but that would be improper--I have never had anything to do with them to begin with, and I shouldn't have all my words tainted because people run out of logical arguements and resort to the old fallacy of poisoning the well in saddling any who dares to defend the moniker "pro life" with residual guilt for their actions.
3) Celebrities often get nutcases who try to stalk, assassinate, or do whatever to them. Darl has at least gotten harassing phone calls, and this is rather believable given that his number has been posted to slashdot. Plenty of celebs regularly file anti-stalking suits with aggressive fans, and I seem to remember a few who have been killed. I believe that, among others, the killer of one of the Beatle's was denied parole recently. I'm too lazy to look it up, but such cases are perhaps more prevalent than you realize.
4) That there are people who would take this extreme only validates the conclusion that there are insane people out there. Moreover, ponder this: exactly who would a hypothetical, insane pro-choice person assassinate, anyhow? Also, exactly how many abortion doctors have been killed, or seriously harassed, anyhow? I'm not convinced the actual danger is any higher than that we all experience from, say, driving, when aggregated among all abortion doctors, or all who work at abortion clinics.
5) You lump us all into the "religious nutcases" bit at the end. There are plenty of pro-life atheists, and other non-religious types. Although they do tend to be nearly disowned by the online atheist groupthink I have encountered in several skeptical communities...
One can premise a pro life position on the theory that humans have an inalienable right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, and that a living member of the species homo sapiens qualify as "human" for the purposes of that clause. Please note that the above arguement requires no belief in or about anything supernatural. At worst, that position is "speiciesist." I don't think that all things ending with -ist or -ism are inherently bad, and thus I honestly don't give a crap if it may exclude other, hypothetical species. I'll happily discuss making it more inclusive if and when there's another species capable of making a cogent arguement on that point... One can also remedy that by adding another, very similar set of premises substituting the new specise for homo sapiens, thus including both.
Please note that the word "inalienable" above refers to a right you cannot give up or contract away, and I am consistant with that, also being against the
"If you think it's time to suspend the normal rules of civilization and replace politics with warfare, feel free--- but expect to be wiped out in a matter of days."
I don't think liberals would fight with guns. They would probably use their superior intellect to craft chemical and biological weapons. You are right it would make no sense to try adn fight republicans with AK47s, not only do they have more experience with killing they are also more heavily armed. It's probably better to light up a suburb with some sort of a chemical weapon. You get to kill a thousand republicans in one shot that way.
evil is as evil does
So. . . Stopping the selfish kid from taking all the other kid's toys is imposing one's will, is it?
Stopping the bullies of the world from raping and pillaging howsoever and however much they choose is, "imposing one's will"?
This is what I am talking about. The conservative mind-set is at its core, selfish and dangerous. --And in America, the bully takes using the weapons of Money and Law. The Enron fiasco was an excellent example of this behavior carried to its logical conclusion.
The Conservative believes that s/he should be allowed to harm, take and exploit as s/he pleases, and they don't seem to understand that this is flawed behavior. Despite how the truth of the matter may disguised and flowered as it often is, the simple fact is that there is a sickness involved. Greed is a disease.
So, yes. Whether you think it is wholesome or not, I DO believe in 'imposing my will' when it is appropriate. When I am being attacked, I will "impose my will" and prevent a bully from harming me.
There are monsters in the world. The trick is in keeping a clear head and knowing which ones are real and which ones are your responsibility.
-FL
The whole area was ringed off by tanks, so the Baghdad residents couldn't have joined in if they'd wanted to...
So who do you think those people are? Fallujah residents?
I watched the whole thing live on BBC and it was a long time (40 minutes) between when they started tyring to knock the statue down and when the tanks rolled into the square. The residents gathred in small numbers which grew. They tried to use a normal rope to pull it down as well as use some sort of axe thing to knock the podium down.
Oh, and the picture in that link of yours shows the event well after the statue fell which is kind of all useless to prove their point. Ofcourse there were US tanks securing the area by that time!! It'd be like showing a picture of the fall of the berlin wall hours after it fell.
The residents started trying to fell the statue way, way before those vehicles rolled in.
.sigs: Just Say No!
Lots of people like Bush here in Taiwan. That's because he's publicly stated that he'll honor the US commitment to defend Taiwan if China attacks. After France made some weapon deals with China, China set up over 500 missles pointed RIGHT F*#&ING AT THIS CITY(), and China and France started doing joint military drills, Bush sent 7 aircraft carriers into the Taiwan straight as a deterent. Kerry, meanwhile has repeatedly promised China more cooperation on all issues and barely mentioned Taiwan at all. Taiwan is THE issue China has with everyone...
I don't know much about what's going on with Iraq, but if Kerry wins theres a good chance of having war here... China won't happily tolerate Chen Shui Bian () much longer. Mainland Chinese been threatening to attack for years, and if the US abandons, they will.
I'm a gnu world man.
The FBI had nothing to do with this. In fact, it was the CDC, attempting to contain an outbreak of viral insanity.
I visited an Indymedia site once. I could actually hear my neurons screaming their tiny death screams. Fortunately I shut down my browser quickly and, in time, I hope to make a full recovery.
The FBI executed the seizure (in London) at the request of Swiss authorities, who were worried about a post on a European IMC that contained photographs of undercover Swiss police officers "on duty" at a protest in France.
The "investigation" into the RNC delegates list is "ongoing," whatever that means. It's all kind of silly because the lists of delegates were publicly available on a state-by state basis; all the posters of those lists to NYC-IMC did was aggregate publicly available data that was dispersed in "raw" form.
Also, they did it not once, but twice.
With regard to the ProtestWarriors, I found this thread especially rich. Protest as military operation: how orwellian is that? (The picture of a puppy in a microwave is just a bonus).
"Riot groups"? And what flying saucer did they step out of?
Don't waste our time with the tinfoil hat crap, if you're going to make extraordinary claims, let's see some extraordinary proof.
Tech Public Policy stuff
Unlike other countries, it's very rare for Americans to come together and work in a way that might be perceived a threat to the power of the powers-that-be, specifically the idle class that lives off the profit generated by American workers. This type of repression is uncommon because American workers so rarely come together to form our own media, organize in unions and so forth. One reason is because of a sort of Catch-22 that a society of isolated, individualized people has less of a foundation to come together to do so. Another is the massive machine - the world's largest army, prison system, intelligence system, military-industrial complex, lobbying efforts, corporate media, PR industry, fundamentalist churches, corporate law firms and so forth that attacks such efforts for workers to organize together and have their own voice. Faced with attacks by such, people become like Pavlovian dogs and go to their atomized lives of individualized exploitation, and buck the system less. Nonetheless, I think American workers will continue to try to organize together, but I pray that that the US machine continues to get foreign pressure, especially from workers organizing in foreign countries.
Indymedia is one of the few medias out there, one of almost the only medias out there that is not corporate owned and controlled, where anyone can file stories, and which is run and read by working people. Of course the corporate world and their government stooges would see that as a threat.
The charges are of course nonsense. If Chavez in Venezuela or Castro or Cuba or some other figure did this, Bush would be decrying the totalitarianism of their government right now and the rest of the corporate TV talking heads would nod their heads. Indymedia has open publishing but when "illegal content" is posted it erases it (unless it sues not to like in the Diebold case). I think that legally the idea that there is so much potential "illegal content" out there is ridiculous to begin with, and is something to be thought about. Most of the stuff posted was already floating around the net before someone posted it on Indymedia.
The problem I guess is Indymedia is a little too free for the corporate soft money bought stooges in Washington DC. They want Indymedia to be more self-censoring, letting any Tom Dick or John Q. Public have his unfiltered say is a little too dangerous. It's ironic that Indymedia is around the world, even in places like Palestine, Colombia and other places you'd expect these crackdowns, but it's the US security forces who are so often attacking this medium.
"I find it ironic that a bunch of anti-violence, anti-gun, peacemongers, like Democrats would behave this way. "
The man reporting it that gun shot was Phil Parlock (Republican campaigner).
http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/091804X.shtml
The same guy who was attacked (when he was with his daughter) by democrats and had his Bush poster tore up.
Trouble is he does the every election, so it seems about as fake as can be, this is the 3rd election in which he's done this stunt.
They would probably use their superior intellect to craft chemical and biological weapons.
My, aren't you a riot. Defining liberals as those who possess "superior" intellects. Guess you're a sad, sad disappointment to the Left, eh?
Max
My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
Redundant Array of Independent Webservers. Identical, strewn across jurisdictions.
Actually, think about this. With broadband being so widespread these days a group of volunteers could host bits and pieces of a favorite website across all of their machines, updated with regular automated backups. Not only would this prevent law enforcement from easily seizing the contents of the site, but the entire site itself could be reconstructed on another server in moments. Preferably one in another jurisdiction, or even another country.
Max
My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
. Most were students from all over the country, indoctrinated by communist teachers at surrounding universities.
The ultra-right doesn't take Communism seriously anymore. You sound like a 1950s John Bircher. Remember the "Red Chinese"? China's now a hotbed of 19th century "fuck the environment" capitalism. In the time you seem to think you are living in, possesion of all those MADE IN CHINA items in your computer would have meant somebody broke the law.
I don't know what time warp you stepped out of, but. . .
We don't have any oppressive laws anymore
DMCA? PATRIOT ACT 1 and 2 (in progress)? Are you telling us that holding American citizens in US-controlled prisons without charges or an attorney is against the law? You have no problem with INDUCE?
I have no idea where you are getting your news or your recreational drugs, but if I were you, I'd change both immediately.
Tech Public Policy stuff
Then again, I almost joined the National Riffle Assn, but *they* only had one thing I *agreed* with in amongst the Wacko Retoric.
.5 for never acting against the second amendment. (Though, oddly, they would drop to an 8 or less if they did act against it... I must be getting too used to slashdot karma math... 8-)
So, I give the ACLU a 9.5 out of 10. They get the
The fact of the mater is that the ACLU can stand back from the second amendment, and it is in their best interest to do so. By standing back they leave the NRA to champion that one thing all without disenfranchising their core membership, many of whom are weenees(*)...
(*)It doesn't, IMHO, take a rocket scientest to understand that all of the provisions of the bill of rights relate directly to the rubber/road interface between the American Colinists and the British Occupation. Said analysis leads to a simple required parity: any one citizen has the right to be *at* *least* as well armed as any one member of the government. The "but terrible things happen to 'innocent' people" people are all weenees. I have met thises people, I have sat on a _JURY_ with these people and barely avoided a HUGE miscarrage of justice because of that ""someone has to be to blame, bad things don't 'just happen'" denyal crap.
There, I said it, weenees...
[Warning Signs of weeneeness]
"I could/would never eat anything with a face..."
"But what about the children!?!"
Will say "I have the right" at the drop of a hat, but would die before saying "I have the responsibility".
Anybody who says "oh, that's just awful." more than once a year.
Anybody who is too self-absorbed to take a deathly-ill animal to the vet to have it put down, and so would make the animal suffer so they don't have to do the hard-but-right thing.
Anybody who uses the phrase "literal word of God" with a straight face. (ok, now Im jsut getting devicive... 8-)
Innocent people shouldn't be forced to pay for inferior software development.
--"Code Complete" Microsoft Press
On the whole, these sites were intended to be local to various EU countries. The only reason this worked was that the warrant was given to US hosting company with oervers in foriegn countries.If they restored to a server outside of any US jurisdiction,the only way the US could intervene directly would be by playing games with the root server, and I suspect that the rest of the world might have something to say about that.
Perhaps they were depending on a US tradition of "freedom of speech". Will they learn from experience?
Tech Public Policy stuff
The KKK doesn't claim to be unbiased... they admit they lean right.
Chuckle.
-
- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
When I said "However they quite apparently posted it with intent to cause the commission of a crime" I was referring to the situation described by the grandparent poster. I have no idea what was actually going on with the Indymedia site, and it doesn't seem like ANYONE here on Slashdot has any clue.
-
- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
The RNC delegate info was never posted on the server in question (ahimsa). The suspicion within informed circles is that the FBI action might have been related to pictures of undercover Swiss police officers posted on the Nantes IMC site (which was hosted on ahimsa). The Swiss police had already questioned a volunteer from Nantes IMC about these photos. For more info, look at this summary.
For those who don't know / understand - Indymedia is a network, so this isn't "Indymedia's HD" but rather equipment run by a collective attached to one of the various IMCs (each IMC is autonomous according to Indymedia's Principles of Unity).
...the rest of the millions will ignore this fact, and happily watch (name your stupid television show here).
In contrast to what other posters mentioned, this will not bring about anything.
At most, it's a Harisson Bergeron thing - reality I guess.
Slashdot: stuff for news, nerds that matter, matter for news, stuff that nerd
Your citing of the abortion doctor case is relevant, but doesn't prove your point. In the abortion doctor address case, doctors were ACTUALLY MURDERED. The people publishing the information were being held liable for the deaths of doctors killed and injured. A jury awarded Planned Parenthood $107 million in the case. It still is being battled out in the courts. Here's a great legal discussion of the case.
Note the difference here. That's a civil case where a victim of violence is suing a 'publisher'. This Indymedia situation would appear to be a criminal case in that the FBI doesn't confiscate stuff unless they are looking to put people in jail for something. Hopefully nothing has happened to anyone listed on the Indymedia site.
No one has said a website can't publish the names and addresses of abortion doctors. A jury has said that someone who did is responsible for the deaths and injuries committed against people on said list. It also didn't help the Nuremburg Files website defendents that they were marking off pictures of doctors as they were killed or greying them out if they were only injured. It functioned as a sort of scorecard for psychopaths.
In terms of free speech, prior restraint is a serious defense that has been upheld in countless cases. The Supreme Court describes prior restraint as "the most serious and the least tolerable infringement on First Amendment rights." In the IndyMedia and the Nuremburg Files case, the government is going to wait and see what the result is of speech rather than intercede with assumptions on what could happen. Probably what has happened with the IndyMedia situation is that the govt. is harrassing them by claiming that something posted was stolen from a comprimised server and they are confiscating the hard drives to investigate the theft of the data.
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
DON'T GET YOUR HOSTING FROM RACKSPACE.
Further:
Don't get your hosting from a company doing business in the US.
i had a sig, once..
All your rackspace are belong to us.
Seized disks contained a lot of european content.
My guess is that this is related to a death
treat to a Dutch politician named Wilders.
The so called international stalinists called
for his death with 6 bullets. The story, in
Dutch, is here.
I think that providers should hand over IP logs
concerning death threats.
Bram Stolk http://stolk.org/tlctc/
The funny thing is that you freak out now, but when what's really going on comes to light, you're going to look like a dumb ass.
I'm a firm believer that there are some things that the public doesn't need to know, for security reasons.
Nobody's exactly sure why or how the FBI got warrants to take Indymedia's HDs,
Especially given that the disks were located in London. Why is a British court issuing warrents at the request of foreigners?
Maybe they were shut down because Indymedia has been pointing out lately how Bush may have been wired during the debates, and at previous press conferences.
a r. html
http://isbushwired.com/2004/10/voice-in-bushs-e
Theory is that Bush has a tiny mic (or dental implant) through which Karl Rove, Cheney or some other intelligent grown-up tells him what to say.
Sound crazy? Then what's that Power Unit with a thick wire doing under his coat during the 1st debate? (Note this was only noticed because the TV network disobeyed the Bush campaign's order not to show candidates from behind.)
Is it? Your statement depends on the laws (american) that exist and is open to interpretation. Also it is not clear what exact information was released.
this was reported by the 'post-gazette'. No mention was made of the address type (work or home). But in the context read above it can be interpreted as a potential *threat*. In the current climate and US elections coming up this reported incident will certainly trigger this kind of (heavy handed) response.
Also consider that the source of the information may also be the *interest*. Cynics among you may well think the info (if harmless) maybe a plant to shut indimedia down for a bit :)
peterrenshaw ~ Another Scrappy Startup
Nothing is known? Can the FBI really take down any server without giving any reason why?
As a non US citizen, I find this hard to believe. If this is really the case, colocating my server in the US might not seem such a good idea.
Someone must have skipped biology class or maybe your school was into the oxymoronic theory known as "creationist science". ALL humans are literally animals. The human species behaves like most other species of large predator. Males will fight each other for territory and mating rights. That's how we end up with leaders who concentrate on bombs and blow-jobs. It has been said that "Copernicus removed earth from the center of the universe and Darwin removed Man from the center of creation". Hey you with the mod points, there is a reference to religion here so mod me OT or Troll.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
I am your plumber - No I never went away ... to monitor all day your excess talk
I still bug your bedrooms - And pick up everything you say
It can be a boring job
I hear when you're drinking, and cheating on your lonely wife ... of you to my friends at night
I play tape recordings
We've got our girl in bed with you
You're on candid camera - We just un-elected you !
[Chorus]
I am the owl
I seek out the foul
Wipe 'em away, Keep America free
For clean livin' folks like me
If you demonstrate - Against somebody we like
I'll slip on my wig - And see if I can start a riot
Transform you to an angry mob
All your leaders go to jail for my job
But we ain't the Russians - Political trials are taboo
We've got our secret - Ways of getting rid of you
Fill you full of LSD - Turn you loose on a freeway
[Chorus]
Send you spinning, Send you spinning
Send you spinning all over the freeway
Spinning on the crowded freeway
Spinning on the freeway, Spinning on the freeway, Spin, Spin-Lookout !
The press, they never even cared
Why a youth leader walked into a speeding car
In ten years we'll leak the truth - By then it's only so much paper
Watergate hurt
But nothing really ever changed
A teeny bit quiter - But we still play our little games
We still play our little games - We still play our little games - We still play our little games
We still play a lot of games
I am the owl
With that aggravating beauty, Lulu Walls.
I don't know, I've always wanted to kill all of those Taiwanese EverQuest players who ignore you and say "ho si la kkk ccc thx~". Not in RL, but in the game. Or maybe not... ok kidding.
He did not leave much space to be liked, did he?
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Since when the FBI considered the executive branch...
Publicly revealing the warrant would be a violation of the accused rights, actually. And the executive branch does not enforce warrants; the judicial branch does.
It is perfectly within the rights of the accused to make a warrant public. In the US, the government is bound by law not to disclose the terms of a warrant or trial.
So whaddaya expect for nuttin'?
I just heard a report on NPR this morning. A reporter went to a Bush appearance wearing a Kerry T-shirt. He was told by the secret service he would be arrested if he didn't leave. He went to a Kerry appearance wearing a Bush T-shirt. Nothing happened.
I thought - big whoop. They then went on to interview and describe many others who had been removed with the threat of JAIL from Bush appearances because they were "questionable". One woman had a small Kerry pin on her jacket. One guy had come from a Kerry rally and had a Kerry T-shirt on, which he had covered up with a long-sleeve shirt. At one high-school, several students were removed in tears by secret service officers for having Kerry items on. The list went on and on. One guy complied, and took off his Kerry item, and was still ordered to leave. Some people were put in jail for 2 hours, then charges dropped. The local police said they were following the orders of the secret service, and the secret service said they were following the orders of the white house.
So now you aren't allowed at a Bush event unless you support him? I guess it is all about the image of having support. It must be pretty easy to have a chanting mob of supporters if you pre-screen the crowd. It sounds kind of like a tent revival for an evangelical con-man.
I didn't see the report on NPRs website yet, so I can't link to it. But I did just hear it this morning on the way into work.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
Further, I can tell you that the vast majority of protestors were not city residents.
You have some study you or someone else did that proves this, or is this one of those, "No believe me, I live there" statements? Because I do too.
Most were students from all over the country, indoctrinated by communist teachers at surrounding universities.
Again, you interviewed some people maybe?
90% of the protestors were White and between 18 and 30
Many people where white, I agree, but this statement is rediculous.
Do all these people look 18?
Do these people look like communists (whatever evil that is supposed to insinuate, since communists are apparently still should not be allowed to speak in the US according to you.)?
Do these people all look white?
The protests were a lot more diverse...thankfully.
... that the seized server served Indymedia's keyserver keys.indymedia.org
the FBI isn't usually one of the rogue elephant agencies
Surely you jest? They have been knee-deep in political manipulation since their inception! Hoover kept files on everybody, of all political persuations, using them at the behest of his masters and his own agenda, much of which could be defined as blackmail. While Democrats were in power they were forced clean up their act, but with the Republicans back in power and the Patriot act in their back pocket they seem to be up to their old tricks again.
need a free COBOL editor for Windows?
The RNC name probably doesn't appear on the warrant from the FBI, but if you do a little research, you'll realize the RNC name DID appear on the Certificate of Occupancy & Safety for what has become to be known as "Gitmo on the Hudson"
That's right, RNC was in charge of the Pier 57 building used to detain protestors (in razor wire cages and concrete floors covered in toxic automotive fluids) during the convention and held there by the NYPD.
RNC PLANNED TO HOLD A CONVENTION TO EXPLOIT WTC LOCATION IN A ANTI-RNC CITY, THEN THE CORPORATION FACILITATED THE DETENTION OF PEACEFUL CIVIL PROTESTORS AND THE NYPD HELD THEM BEYOND ESTABLISHED RULES OF HABEUS CORPUS ALL FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE CORPORATION.
Rackspace wouldn't have coughed up the server without the proper legal paperwork so everyone just chill until the facts come out as to what sort of evidence they are looking for.
You're not too familiar with the PATRIOT Act are you?
Dissolve... Resolve... Evolve...
> Sorry, I don't consider publishing the personal, home contact information for public
> figures to be an essential liberty.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Of course it's not really going against the free speech/free press part, because there should be restrictions on freedom of speech: nobody involved in passing the amendment could possibly have considered free speech might be used to protest the behaviour of the current government in ways that could otherwise be repressed, could they?
I propose a new amendment to amend the 1st one so it makes CLEAR that freedom of speech is designed to be used in protest against the government in such a way.
Who's with me? Anyone? Anyone? Anyone at all?
And the FBI DECIDED to help them, which is what the parent said.
Dissolve... Resolve... Evolve...
only they are governments.
I don't have a sig.
I've yet to meet the diehard conservative who, with all else stripped away, is anything more than a selfish kid struggling to make-believe greed into something wholesome-sounding.
It's about time somebody pointed this out.
I'd also add that the same diehards are some of the most intellectually lazy people I've ever met. They're not stupid, they merely prefer to wallow in ignorance and pre-conceived, self-serving notions.
Maybe we need a Whining Fratboy Party in this country..
--- The American Way of Life is not a birthright. Hell, it's not even sustainable.
What's left to prevent fishing expeditions against people the gov't doesn't like?
They show up search the place, find something illegal, and make up the warrant afterwards?
You are talking about Rush Limbaughs medical records right?
". Defining liberals as those who possess "superior" intellects. "
That's not my definition, it's yours. Aren't you guys always talking about "intellectual liberal elite?". Liberals live in urban areas and have collage degrees. Conservatives live in suburbs or rural areas and don't have much of an education.
Just recently comedy central did a study and found out that the viewers of John Stewart made more money, knew more about current affairs and had better education then viewers of Bill O'Reilly.
The same stats have been found about viewers of Fox news in general tye tend to be by and large high school graduates that are sorely misinformed.
So sure your typical conservative is going to be a great shot and enjoy killing humans greatly but your typical liberal will be able to outhink him and kill them by the bucketfuls.
evil is as evil does
If by "accosted" you mean "shouted at." I witnessed many incidents of chanting slogans at RNC delegates that wandered into a protesting crowd. It was on the level of a ribbing, and more than a few delegates smiled and waved, playing along with the crowd.
Together, we will drive the rats from the tundra.
http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Global/FrequentlyAs kedQuestionEn#donate
Whoa! This is a huge thread, and thank goodness! Hopefully the following info is not redundant.
Links
http://www.indymedia.it/ http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/10/08/10970895 54894.html
This is such an outrage, and a betrayal of civil liberties, that there are sure to be more stories. nyc.indymedia.org was instrumental to our recent anti-war action. It appears that the Bushies cannot tolerate freedom of the press, and blow back goes two ways. Please do whatever you can to help Indymedia, especially at this crucial time. Thank you!
Regards,
proclus
http://www.gnu-darwin.org/
Illegitimate disclosure of public information seems like an awfully odd form of wrongdoing. Since, well, it's public information.
There's this amendment to the constitution that you might not know about...
I can think of a few completely legitimate purposes offhand. Peaceful protesting in front of the hotel hosting delegates whose attention you want to get is entirely legitimate. (Perhaps you think all protesters in the city ought to be required to stay in the barbed-wired "free speech zones," so as not to offend the dignity of these political figures?)
And just about any information can "lead to criminal activity," so that is also meaningless. Clearly inciting violent activity is something else entirely.
The SS put the names of political delegates and the names of the hotels they were staying in on webpages? How dreadful of them.
Now before I get modded down, I be to remind whoever might read this that what I am saying is FACT. - bogaboga
> You're not too familiar with the PATRIOT Act are you?
And you aren't too familiar with the situation. The server was located in ENGLAND and last I heard, US laws didn't hold much power there.
Hell, we haven't even got around to annexing Canada yet, but I'm sure the Great Satan (G W Bush for those who haven't been following along) will get around to 'em eventually.
Democrat delenda est
US patriot act my ass. The server resided in the UK. The UK is not the US (although Bliar is an asslicker).
Oh, we all should feel better now. It's legal. Nothing to see here, move along...
>>"ad space available -- low rates!!!"
Probably meant antithetical.
gewg_
There are people in the world who traffic in human children as sex toys.
These people would kill or avoid any uniformed police officer they saw coming their way.
You claim that the true evil in this scenario would be for the government to investigate such a child sex-slavery ring in secret, so as to collect the evidence necessary to put a stop to it.
Are you insane?
No, seriously: What medication is in your medicine cabinet right now, and have you taken today's dose yet?
Any sufficiently well-organized community is indistinguishable from Government.
Not any more. :(
Presumably they got the backup servers?
Are the Weapons of Mass Destruction Terrorizing your belief in the Children? /sigh. Skip the hyperbole and hot-word button pushing and get back on topic.
You aparently cannot parse english, or at least don't chose to credit people in an argument. Paul Tibbets was not singularly armed with the atomic bomb, that was more of an organizational thing. Mr. Tibbets was armed with the atom bomb the same way a captian is armed with with his aircraft carrier, which is "not armed at all". Mr. Tibbets was a delivery device. He didn't keep it in his basement and maintain it about his person. He was told to put it where it went and thats what he did. Saying he was armed with it is like calling a bank courier "rich" because he has a satchel full of bonds.
The military structure is "supposed to" vet people psychologically (but you would *not* beleive what doesn't make it into the newspapers when military people snap) and so there are a lot of group weapons.
I actually don't suggest that private citizens all be issued tanks or atom bombs. But then again, since the military vends these things to individuals why should it only vend them to *anybody*... of course down that road lies all sorts of mis-aplicable arguments that bear no relationship to reasoned discourse.
What I am saying is that if *you* want to own a Squad Assault Weapon (real big machine gun) you should be able to submit to examination for same, and if you qualify for it you should be issued a license to own and operate.
Non of this "hunt deer with it" melarky. Guns are used to influence people and governments. THAT is the only purpose for their mention in the constitution.
You will, probably, then fly off the handle about "the children" or something at this point. Skip it.
I *don't* beleive that guns should be handed out like candy to anybody with a ten-spot and an honest face.
To own a gun you should need a license. Maintaining that license should be non-trivial. You should have to pass a written and "regularly" qualify with the type(s) of guns you have on your license. No qualification no carry.
Think "pilots license" instead of "drivers license". A pilot must maintain a log of his piloting activities' must have flown a certian amount in the last certian period before he can have other people in his plane. Must have taken a certian amount of supervised instruction with each type of plane before he can fly that type of plane. Has to work hsi way up to larger planes. That sort of thing.
I will now put an "odd sounding" proposition to you:
In the time frame of the drafting of the second amendment there was *defacto* gun control. The quality of the materials and the tolerances of the manufacturing of guns was such that to own a gun you *had* to invest a disciplined effort in maintaining it. It had to be regularly cleaned and oiled iven if you didn't shoot it (and so on.)
Gun ownership and crime spiraled out of control in the later half of the last century because we started making guns that could be hideously abused (used to hammer in tent pegs in the rain, ignored in a damp basement for years, dropped into a mud puddle and then shaken dry) without so much as a misfire. Let alone a "blow up in your face".
Consequently any creeten can have a gun and be sure it will work when he finally screws up his little mind to use it. Your crack-head street merchant "gun owner" couldn't have gone armed with eighteenth century technology.
*That* is the only thing that has really changed between then and now.
The fact remains that if more normal people went about armed, there would be *far* *less* gun crime. The shootings we see today are uniform acts of cowardess. Drive-bys and human-hunting on the subway are instances of people looking for a qucik in and a docile crowd onto which to vent their fear and aggression. Btu it doesn't happen much in West Virginia or Texas or any of the other concealed-carry states where anybody in the t
Innocent people shouldn't be forced to pay for inferior software development.
--"Code Complete" Microsoft Press
The profound lack of respect for the First amendment was shown first by the prosecution of 2600 Magazine, then by the arrest of Dmitri Sklyaraov, and most recently by the seizure of some (not all) indymedia servers.
Of course, I can't blame either the DMCA or USA-PATRIOT for the Shii'a rebellion in Iraq, but I can point out that that's to be expected when Americans supress a Free Press.
Ed Craig "Who cares what you think?" George W. Bush, 4th of July 2001
Here is a reproduction of the post with the photographs of the two individuals who are allegedly undercover Swiss police officers.
'More Intimidation Than Crime-Busting' Says IFJ As Police Target Independent Media Network
a ge =EN
http://www.ifj.org/default.asp?Index=2734&Langu
The US has 12. Normally one is always near Taiwan, after China's big military drill, seven came. It was a massive show of force.
Is John Howard "toady"? Not that I like him myself... just curious.
According to this Indymedia.org article and AFP report, the request to seize Indymedia servers hosted by a US company in the UK (covered in this previous slashdot story) originated from government agencies in Italy and Switzerland, not the United States. Because Indymedia's hosting company, Rackspace, is a US company, the FBI coordinated the request and accompanied UK Metropolitan Police on the seizure under the auspices of the Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty (MLAT), an international legal treaty, but, according to an FBI spokesman, 'It is not an FBI operation. Through [MLAT], the subpoena was on behalf of a third country'. Rackspace's statement reads, 'In the present matter regarding Indymedia, Rackspace Managed Hosting, a U.S. based company with offices in London, is acting in compliance with a court order pursuant to a Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty (MLAT), which establishes procedures for countries to assist each other in investigations such as international terrorism, kidnapping and money laundering. Rackspace responded to a Commissioner's subpoena, duly issued under Title 28, United States Code, Section 1782 in an investigation that did not arise in the United States. Rackspace is acting as a good corporate citizen and is cooperating with international law enforcement authorities. The court prohibits Rackspace from commenting further on this matter.'
Haven't read through all the replies, but I'm trying to find mention of this anywhere in the "main stream" media, but cannot.
Am I looking in wrong places?
Is this not "important" enough?
Apparently though it is okay to post the names of CIA agents. At least when they are your political enemies...
Some of us have to quit RS. Peace.
> protestors were not city residents. Most were
> students from all over the country, indoctrinated
> by communist teachers at surrounding universities.
"indoctrinated by communist teachers"? Whoa there Joe, the Reds ain't comin' to getcha, so settle down!
Has it occurred to you that perhaps these people legitimately disagree with you? That there are opinions other that your own with solid reasoning behind them? That one of the key ways this country has improved was protests exactly like these, such as the Civil Rights movement?
You're more than free to disagree with the views espoused by the protesters (and, IMHO, it would be dangerous if everyone agreed on everything; idea-monocultures are as vulnerable as crop-monocultures). Heck, I'd probably have some...choice words...for many of them. However, if you take the intellectually lazy route and write them off as "indoctrinated by communists", you're falling into the trap of saying "real Americans don't need to listen to the views of those people"---dangerous ground that we don't want to retread.
Laugh at ideas all you want, even laugh at individuals, but dismissing entire groups of people out of hand is the method of racists and bigots. "He's one of those people" is never a good reason to dismiss a person or argument.