like MS to bastardize them with implementation-specific "features". (again, look at what MS is doing with their Word2000-generated "HTML" docs. If they're displayable in anything other than IE5, I'll be highly surprised)
What a load of crap. I've got a fairly large document (100 pages of text and images) which i saved as html/xml from Word 2000. Although it looks like shit in Netscape, it looks great in IE5 and Mozilla.
Reason? Netscape standards support sucks. You can't expect Microsoft to use 5 year old HTML technologies when they have a powerful modern browser that suppports new standards.
reality check... doc is a standard format for the pc world. and by your logic, esr controls my desktop because my university seems to think that gcc is the only c compiler, and xemacs is the only editor. *think* next time.
1. Emacs does syntax highlighting and auto-indent. I don't know what you mean by 'intellisense'. Auto-completion isn't that useful to me. I see it as a lazy man's way of not learning the damn function/variable names well enough. If you're working on a large project, you should at least be making an effort to grok the parts of the program you're working on.
Intellisense is the ability for the IDE to detect the methods signatures and object signatures and automatically display them to you in tooltips and dropboxes. You're definitely a beginner, I can'rt believe anyone wuld say that something that aids a programmer's workload as a lazy man's solution.
When you start working on large projects, you can't even remember functions that you write yourself, having the editor give you hints so you dont' have to go back to the documentation is quite useful (and being able to just to the definition of the function with a simple mouse click over the function name is useful too).
We're all humans, and it's SMART to know about out limitations when implementing systems. We for example, can only remember 7-8 things in our shortterm memory.
gdb is very bad when you compare it to VC++'s inplace source editor/debugger. Hover your mouse over a variable name and you get what it holds, edit the source code and continue debugging immediately without having to restart the whole program (edit-and-continue) etc....gdb is like stone knives in comparison.
Enjoy switching from xterm to xterm, recompiling and recompiling with every debug manually.
enjoy gdb. Just don't tell your boss how much time you're wasting.
Although I've nothing against IDE's, I personally prefer a plain text-editor and the command-line compiler tools. I just wonder who else is like me and dislikes IDE's.:-)
I'm willing to bet money that you have not done any professional programming, or have not done so for very long. Uh huh. A plain text-editor? Right, so you don't think having syntax highlighting, autoindenting, intellisense, autocomplete etc are useful?
And as for command line compiler tools, what do you use for debugging? gdb? Lets say you have a 20K line multithreaded program, how long do you think it'll take you to debug that with gdb?
One reason I stay away from IDE's is because it somewhat locks you into a certain interface that you get accustomed to when programming in that language (or environment, whatever). I find it more useful to learn how to use the bare-bones text-editor / CLI interface first, to focus on learning the language itself rather than the IDE's interface.
Well you are contradicting yourself there. First you talk about getting locked into an interface, then you talk about needing to know a language first. So what is it? I don't see how an IDE will somehow change the language, perhaps VC++ lets you type in BASIC?
What IDEs do is make people unaware of some command line tools available (traditionally unix tools) like make, cc/gcc etc. But these are hardly anything to do with the language, they're just some tools for the language - useful to know, but not essential. You can learn make in an hour or two anyway.
After I learned the language, then I find my learning more easily applied to any development environment -- IDE or otherwise.
Yes, but it wouldn't matter whether you learned the language in an IDE or in vi, except that with an IDE you don't have to worry about how to compile, how to debug. With IDEs like VC++ learners of C can do step by step wakl through of code and see variables change, and they can also manually change the code and continue debugging. It helps learning the language and programming in general a lot.
If I had started out with the IDE, I find myself lost when placed in a situation where only command-line tools are available, and need to spend a lot of time learning the "real thing".
Again you're confusing the language with basic tools. VC++ is just as valid a tool as gcc and make are.
It's so much better to learn it the hard way first, then your skills are more marketable/adaptable.
So what you're saying is that you are still learning it the hard way?
Well trust me, when you get a bit more experienced, you'll find that the novelty of doing it the hardway is no longer the best way (cause you've had your fun and learnt all the tricks).
Many modern software engineering companies are starting to use graphical UML tools like Rational Rose for essentially drawing classes that are then turned into code automatically.
Prorgamming is about what you write, not how you do it. The interest comes in the algorithms and the creation itself. And the easier you can do it the better - you can spend more time concentrating on what you're doing not how you do it.
We'll forget the question of where you got the source code to opera and internet explorer for a moment.
MSIE v.X makes cross-linked API calls than hardly be called "application level."
What exactly do you mena by cross-linked API calls? I mean I know IE unfairly uses the ODN network to relay subspace field emissions from the warp core to the position emitters...but come on.
For example, when a FAT look-up occurs through an HTML wrapped local stac, IE will reference the FAT FROM THE INTERNAL REGESTIRES, namely those in memory (or virtual memory). Does netscape do this? No. Opera? No. NO other broser does it!
Consider this: Taking a print job and spooling it to an EMF-format file without IE simply doesn't work without enough crap conversion and reforms that the end job is entirely unusable. Yeah, you'll get something to print, but it is more of a duct-tape solution in the end. And quite often the job is mis-formatted or garbled.
Um, see above except replace positron emitter with waffle maker. Level-3 interlaced GIFs, in order to be displayed PROPERLY (NOT the way Netscape does it) will make a ring 0 call to the initial color flag of the file - calling an API that only the KERNEL is allowed to call. IE can do this, nothing else can.
I realise you're trying to be funny but just in case Linux weenies decide to take this on...interlaces GIFs have nothing to do with kernel level calls. You draw them yourself. Hell, the only thing you'd really need from windows is SetPixel:P.
Um, because memory leaking is when the operating system fails to reclaim memory that has been marked as reusable. Thus, stopping netscape will not solve the problem
I find that hard to believe - unless netscape is allocating shared memory.
This sentence has exactly zero relevance. The corporate purchasers that purchase the vast majority of NT licenses simply don't care about technical issues such as stability. And it's not like there are many choices out there...Microsoft has a monopoly on desktop operating systems for PCs.
It was relevant with regards to the millions of disatisfied customers statement. If you say sell 100 billion copies of NT (yeah i know that's grossly inflated) and you have 1 million people who are disatisfied, it's excellent. And what's more if it's software it's even more excellent, since software engineering is still very bad.
Um, if netscape leaked memory, why not just shutdown netscape? You don't have to reboot you know. Or even better, don't use netscape.
And your experience sounds like your hardware fucked up... I mean I've had horror stories with Linux, where I just lost everything after a kernel panic. It's hardly a proof that Linux totally sucks is it? (there's other proofs for that:P).
A million unsatisfied windows...i mean 'winblows' users (man i feel so l33t now), couldn't be wrong? How many NT licenses do you think Microsoft has sold?
All drivers under NT/windows could potentially render the system unstable
Uh huh, what was the point of that statement? The same applies to linux...you even said it yourself.
I just want to see Windows run ICQ, an IRC client, an MP3 player, web browser, HTML editor, web server, telnet daemon, distributed.net client, retrieve my e-mail automatically, maybe run a game or two without gasping and choking. Maybe do some word processing or image editing once in a while.
That's exactly what my system is! My main development machine has tonnes of stuff installed and running at any one time, multiple instances of VC++ and VJ++, always has a IIS running (obviously), telnet servers, and various office applications (word, outlook) loaded. ICQ is on all the time, WinVNC, GetRight, FlySwat, Corel & Microsoft Indexers, Winamp etc...and I have no problems. (all these programs are open at once most of the time).
Really, I don't understand this idea people have that windows crumples under some load like that....
Maybe you just need to treat your system as stable...I find when people expect their systems to fail, they often find a way to make it fail. I treat my systems as rock solid stable systems, I do put them thru their paces, and they still run. I don't go and reboot them just for higiene either.
I mean, if you think the kind of stuff you say you'd liked to see windows doing without choking is like some kind of list for making windows choke I really really can't understand it. I EXPECT my machines to do exactly that, and I use my machines for exactly that...and more...
But I am running Windows 2000:). I remember I had the same sort of setup in 98, it was a bit slower, and did tend to die after a week....but I've never had any problems what soever on Windows 2000.
I mean, perhaps you should try NT or Windows 2000. The kind of feelings of instability you've built up regarding windows is quite common around here....not sure how realistic it is now days.
I've found Xfree crashes one too many times for me to do any GUI based work with Linux.
Basically now, if i have a Windows 2000 box that BSOD, I get shocked and really try to figure out what's going on. I'm a windows user, but I don't find any crash acceptable anymore.
Um, Active Desktop isn't much. It just makes the desktop an OLE container. Just about every application in windows now days has windows which are ole containers.
FYI I have my active desktop on all the time, and use web view in explorer....
And also, Microsoft never forced it on you. IE4 setup asks you, IE5 doesn't even include it. And you can always turn it off...
The lowest common denominator is Netscape, and it's a SAD SAD SAD state.
IE5.x obviously supports FAR FAR more W3C standards than any release version of Netscape.
Why the hell should Microsoft follow Netscape's standards huh? Yeah, Microsoft should implement blink, or maybe layer?
Why don't you open your eyes?
You remind me of people complaining about office creating pages not viewable in netscape....just funny how they view properly in mozilla. It's just cause microsoft actually generates MODERN html, not 3 year old HTML.
Who gives a crap about netscape if they can't keep up.
Well, the latest Platform SDK has 64bit build tools and headers for Win64. So I'm guessing they're not that far behind. According to MS, it should be simply a recompile to get your software running on Win64. They have free tools that will help you detect potential porting problems.
I never said they suck...just trying to give Microsoft credit here.
And "Microsoft's Sin's"??? PUUULEEEASE don't tell me you're that naive.
What Microsoft has done is what EVERY OTHER COMPANY has done...and some have done worse. Microsoft just do it better.
I think Microsoft is one of america's best companies, they have good work ethic, the company has a good CEO (who doesn't spend his time vashing his competitors personally - you listening mcneally?) and has a genuine interest in technology. The company gives shitloads to charity, they give their employees good deals - much better than the average company (such as payouts if you have adopted children, equal deals to sam-sex partner ships, free coke:D~, etc)...and even how their buildings and attitudes.
For being the biggest software company in the world (and one of the biggest companies overall) they're pretty non-evil.
And gates is pretty cool for the richest man in the world, he still drives himself round, really loves technology, and can still be seen jumping up to touch the ceiling...that sort of thing.
I can certainly imagine best.
Why does everyone on/. seem to think they're fighting the good fight against this great evil.
Seems just a weee bit pretentious to consider yourselves the new patriots of the new milllenium. Face it. GPL is not about free speech, and you're not fighting evil. You're just being silly, and the rest of the industry is laughing at you.
Slashdot Mirror
like MS to bastardize them with implementation-specific "features". (again, look at what MS is doing with their Word2000-generated "HTML" docs. If they're displayable in anything other than IE5, I'll be highly surprised)
What a load of crap. I've got a fairly large document (100 pages of text and images) which i saved as html/xml from Word 2000. Although it looks like shit in Netscape, it looks great in IE5 and Mozilla.
Reason? Netscape standards support sucks. You can't expect Microsoft to use 5 year old HTML technologies when they have a powerful modern browser that suppports new standards.
reality check... doc is a standard format for the pc world. and by your logic, esr controls my desktop because my university seems to think that gcc is the only c compiler, and xemacs is the only editor. *think* next time.
I can play too.
Uh, Windows 95 is 16/32 bit. Win32 however is 32bit.
Look at NT.
Yes, just unlike the brilliant posting i was replied to eh?
Unlike VB, in JB you see all your code. VB keeps the subroutines visually separate - this breeds bad habits and confusion later, with REAL languages.
Un no it doesn't...not if you don't want it to. Look in the options dialog sometime.
1. Emacs does syntax highlighting and auto-indent. I don't know what you mean by 'intellisense'. Auto-completion isn't that useful to me. I see it as a lazy man's way of not learning the damn function/variable names well enough. If you're working on a large project, you should at least be making an effort to grok the parts of the program you're working on.
Intellisense is the ability for the IDE to detect the methods signatures and object signatures and automatically display them to you in tooltips and dropboxes. You're definitely a beginner, I can'rt believe anyone wuld say that something that aids a programmer's workload as a lazy man's solution.
When you start working on large projects, you can't even remember functions that you write yourself, having the editor give you hints so you dont' have to go back to the documentation is quite useful (and being able to just to the definition of the function with a simple mouse click over the function name is useful too).
We're all humans, and it's SMART to know about out limitations when implementing systems. We for example, can only remember 7-8 things in our shortterm memory.
gdb is very bad when you compare it to VC++'s inplace source editor/debugger. Hover your mouse over a variable name and you get what it holds, edit the source code and continue debugging immediately without having to restart the whole program (edit-and-continue) etc....gdb is like stone knives in comparison.
Enjoy switching from xterm to xterm, recompiling and recompiling with every debug manually.
enjoy gdb. Just don't tell your boss how much time you're wasting.
Although I've nothing against IDE's, I personally prefer a plain text-editor and the command-line compiler tools. I just wonder who else is like me and dislikes IDE's.
I'm willing to bet money that you have not done any professional programming, or have not done so for very long.
Uh huh. A plain text-editor? Right, so you don't think having syntax highlighting, autoindenting, intellisense, autocomplete etc are useful?
And as for command line compiler tools, what do you use for debugging? gdb? Lets say you have a 20K line multithreaded program, how long do you think it'll take you to debug that with gdb?
One reason I stay away from IDE's is because it somewhat locks you into a certain interface that you get accustomed to when programming in that language (or environment, whatever). I find it more useful to learn how to use the bare-bones text-editor / CLI interface first, to focus on learning the language itself rather than the IDE's interface.
Well you are contradicting yourself there. First you talk about getting locked into an interface, then you talk about needing to know a language first. So what is it? I don't see how an IDE will somehow change the language, perhaps VC++ lets you type in BASIC?
What IDEs do is make people unaware of some command line tools available (traditionally unix tools) like make, cc/gcc etc.
But these are hardly anything to do with the language, they're just some tools for the language - useful to know, but not essential. You can learn make in an hour or two anyway.
After I learned the language, then I find my learning more easily applied to any development environment -- IDE or otherwise.
Yes, but it wouldn't matter whether you learned the language in an IDE or in vi, except that with an IDE you don't have to worry about how to compile, how to debug. With IDEs like VC++ learners of C can do step by step wakl through of code and see variables change, and they can also manually change the code and continue debugging. It helps learning the language and programming in general a lot.
If I had started out with the IDE, I find myself lost when placed in a situation where only command-line tools are available, and need to spend a lot of time learning the "real thing".
Again you're confusing the language with basic tools. VC++ is just as valid a tool as gcc and make are.
It's so much better to learn it the hard way first, then your skills are more marketable/adaptable.
So what you're saying is that you are still learning it the hard way?
Well trust me, when you get a bit more experienced, you'll find that the novelty of doing it the hardway is no longer the best way (cause you've had your fun and learnt all the tricks).
Many modern software engineering companies are starting to use graphical UML tools like Rational Rose for essentially drawing classes that are then turned into code automatically.
Prorgamming is about what you write, not how you do it. The interest comes in the algorithms and the creation itself. And the easier you can do it the better - you can spend more time concentrating on what you're doing not how you do it.
ok?
We'll forget the question of where you got the source code to opera and internet explorer for a moment.
:P.
MSIE v.X makes cross-linked API calls than hardly be called "application level."
What exactly do you mena by cross-linked API calls? I mean I know IE unfairly uses the ODN network to relay subspace field emissions from the warp core to the position emitters...but come on.
For example, when a FAT look-up occurs through an HTML wrapped local stac, IE will reference the FAT FROM THE INTERNAL REGESTIRES, namely those in memory (or virtual memory). Does netscape do this? No. Opera? No. NO other broser does it!
Consider this: Taking a print job and spooling it to an EMF-format file without IE simply doesn't work without enough crap conversion and reforms that the end job is entirely unusable. Yeah, you'll get something to print, but it is more of a duct-tape solution in the end. And quite often the job is mis-formatted or garbled.
Um, see above except replace positron emitter with waffle maker.
Level-3 interlaced GIFs, in order to be displayed PROPERLY (NOT the way Netscape does it) will make a ring 0 call to the initial color flag of the file - calling an API that only the KERNEL is allowed to call. IE can do this, nothing else can.
I realise you're trying to be funny but just in case Linux weenies decide to take this on...interlaces GIFs have nothing to do with kernel level calls. You draw them yourself. Hell, the only thing you'd really need from windows is SetPixel
Um, because memory leaking is when the operating system fails to reclaim memory that has been marked as reusable. Thus, stopping netscape will not solve the problem
I find that hard to believe - unless netscape is allocating shared memory.
This sentence has exactly zero relevance. The corporate purchasers that purchase the vast majority of NT licenses simply don't care about technical issues such as stability. And it's not like there are many choices out there...Microsoft has a monopoly on desktop operating systems for PCs.
It was relevant with regards to the millions of disatisfied customers statement. If you say sell 100 billion copies of NT (yeah i know that's grossly inflated) and you have 1 million people who are disatisfied, it's excellent. And what's more if it's software it's even more excellent, since software engineering is still very bad.
Um, if netscape leaked memory, why not just shutdown netscape? You don't have to reboot you know. Or even better, don't use netscape.
:P).
...i mean 'winblows' users (man i feel so l33t now), couldn't be wrong? How many NT licenses do you think Microsoft has sold?
And your experience sounds like your hardware fucked up...
I mean I've had horror stories with Linux, where I just lost everything after a kernel panic. It's hardly a proof that Linux totally sucks is it? (there's other proofs for that
A million unsatisfied windows
All drivers under NT/windows could potentially render the system unstable
Uh huh, what was the point of that statement? The same applies to linux...you even said it yourself.
I just want to see Windows run ICQ, an IRC client, an MP3 player, web browser, HTML editor, web server, telnet daemon, distributed.net client, retrieve my e-mail automatically, maybe run a game or two without gasping and choking. Maybe do some word processing or image editing once in a while.
That's exactly what my system is! My main development machine has tonnes of stuff installed and running at any one time, multiple instances of VC++ and VJ++, always has a IIS running (obviously), telnet servers, and various office applications (word, outlook) loaded. ICQ is on all the time, WinVNC, GetRight, FlySwat, Corel & Microsoft Indexers, Winamp etc...and I have no problems. (all these programs are open at once most of the time).
Really, I don't understand this idea people have that windows crumples under some load like that....
Maybe you just need to treat your system as stable...I find when people expect their systems to fail, they often find a way to make it fail. I treat my systems as rock solid stable systems, I do put them thru their paces, and they still run. I don't go and reboot them just for higiene either.
I mean, if you think the kind of stuff you say you'd liked to see windows doing without choking is like some kind of list for making windows choke I really really can't understand it. I EXPECT my machines to do exactly that, and I use my machines for exactly that...and more...
But I am running Windows 2000
I mean, perhaps you should try NT or Windows 2000. The kind of feelings of instability you've built up regarding windows is quite common around here....not sure how realistic it is now days.
I've found Xfree crashes one too many times for me to do any GUI based work with Linux.
Basically now, if i have a Windows 2000 box that BSOD, I get shocked and really try to figure out what's going on. I'm a windows user, but I don't find any crash acceptable anymore.
Um, Active Desktop isn't much. It just makes the desktop an OLE container. Just about every application in windows now days has windows which are ole containers.
FYI I have my active desktop on all the time, and use web view in explorer....
And also, Microsoft never forced it on you. IE4 setup asks you, IE5 doesn't even include it. And you can always turn it off...
WTF.
Why did you say that?
Why would this be FUD at all? It's what's called the facts.
If the results were the other way round you'd be running around yelling how linux kicks windows' ass and how you're such a l33t haxor.
grow up.
Excuse me?
The lowest common denominator is Netscape, and it's a SAD SAD SAD state.
IE5.x obviously supports FAR FAR more W3C standards than any release version of Netscape.
Why the hell should Microsoft follow Netscape's standards huh? Yeah, Microsoft should implement blink, or maybe layer?
Why don't you open your eyes?
You remind me of people complaining about office creating pages not viewable in netscape....just funny how they view properly in mozilla. It's just cause microsoft actually generates MODERN html, not 3 year old HTML.
Who gives a crap about netscape if they can't keep up.
Uh huh
So what you're saying is lets go and compare release versions of IE to prebeta versions of Mozilla.
Gee slashdot is on a roll today.
Um, have you even looked at mozilla or gnome?
Go to their web sites...they copy everything, right down to the names of the interfaces.
IE5.5 the beta for Windows 9x/NT/2K.
We are talking about mozilla here remember (a pre beta browser). Netscape doesn't even understand CSS properly, let alone render it.
FYI, I'm running IE5.5 on Windows 2000, and the dotted border works fine.
Well, the latest Platform SDK has 64bit build tools and headers for Win64. So I'm guessing they're not that far behind. According to MS, it should be simply a recompile to get your software running on Win64. They have free tools that will help you detect potential porting problems.
It works perfectly in IE5.5
IE5.0 indeed does just red taping.
Netscape just doesn't even render the borders.
I guess IE again, wins again.
(may i just say IE5.5's circle dots look much cooler than mozilla's cheapo square dots).
Are you sure it is reserved as in don't use?
I was under the understanding it was reserved as in reserved for custom data.
knew it had a solid codebase for a while
I'm using it now and although it *has* crashed a couple times, it's becoming considerably more difficult.
Why does something not look right here?
If MIT didn't want proprietry information used with kerberos, they never should have had the fields to allow microsoft to do that.
microsoft kerberos doesn't break anything, it'll work fine with existing kerberos frameworks.
not saying it's bad. saying microsoft doesn't get the credit they deserve.
If i had mentioned COM/OLE here 3 years ago i would have gotten responses like EEEVIL, BAD, CRAP, SLOW .
Now it's like, hey that's not too bad. Or, Microsoft COM is bad, xpCOM is cool.
I never said they suck...just trying to give Microsoft credit here.
:D~, etc)...and even how their buildings and attitudes.
/. seem to think they're fighting the good fight against this great evil.
And "Microsoft's Sin's"??? PUUULEEEASE don't tell me you're that naive.
What Microsoft has done is what EVERY OTHER COMPANY has done...and some have done worse. Microsoft just do it better.
I think Microsoft is one of america's best companies, they have good work ethic, the company has a good CEO (who doesn't spend his time vashing his competitors personally - you listening mcneally?) and has a genuine interest in technology.
The company gives shitloads to charity, they give their employees good deals - much better than the average company (such as payouts if you have adopted children, equal deals to sam-sex partner ships, free coke
For being the biggest software company in the world (and one of the biggest companies overall) they're pretty non-evil.
And gates is pretty cool for the richest man in the world, he still drives himself round, really loves technology, and can still be seen jumping up to touch the ceiling...that sort of thing.
I can certainly imagine best.
Why does everyone on
Seems just a weee bit pretentious to consider yourselves the new patriots of the new milllenium. Face it. GPL is not about free speech, and you're not fighting evil. You're just being silly, and the rest of the industry is laughing at you.
Grow up.