Slashdot Mirror
Mozilla M16 Up For Grabbing
Cioby writes: "No news on the homepage (yet), but on [the mozilla.org nightly builds page] M16 builds started to appear. Go Mozilla, GO! :)" True enough -- though M15 is the latest milestone listed, M16 has been available from the nightly builds for over a month. M16 rocks pretty well, too, though I haven't tried out its transparent gif feature yet. Hard to complain about a nightly release schedule ... [Updated 8:50GMT by timothy] (Sigh) -- Yes, that ought to say "transparent png," not gif. Guess I haven't tried that either.
Although the check mark here (The Netherlands) is used mostly as possitive (correct) the first thing I noticed was the red and green colors, not the shape.....
Jeroen
Secure messaging: http://quickmsg.vreeken.net/
I can't tell if that's flamebait or making fun of flamebait, but LOL
> you freak
:)
> Face it. GPL is not about free speech...
What is GPL about? Not free beer. I'd pay money for good, Free, libre GPL software.
For a simple timeline of the seamonkey project (the heart of mozilla) goto:
http://www.mozilla.org/projects/seamonkey/mileston es/
Yes, it means something... chiefly that MS is selectively supporting whichever Unix variants they want. It means that they could port the whole (imho stinking) glob of goop to, say, FreeBSD, and it would work just as "well."
Well, it's their choice in the end...
--
--
Me spell chucker work grate. Need grandma chicken.
The ever-so-helpful Dr. Watson gleefully informs me that "An application has generated an error log" and takes my Mozilla away very very often. It does run really fast on NT, but goes away with the same speed.
Mozilla runs great on my Ultra 5 tho...
"We apologize for the inconvenience."
You seem to defend Microsoft too much...and your "perspective" seems mighty Microsoftian.
Netscape 6 PR1's CSS support blows Microsoft's away; in fact, it has the least number of bugs, and was claimed to have the best CSS support of all the browsers in an article right here on Slashdot. So, you're comment that IE's CSS is better than Netscape's "ever was" is just plain wrong.
Then, you make a big deal about how good OLE/ActiveX is...that's wonderful...and they run on how many platforms again? That's right, one. XPCOM might sound like a rehasing of COM, and maybe it is, but XPCOM runs on at least ten different platforms; that's what makes it a "big deal," and rather cool IMO.
Next on the block: components. IE has them. Mozilla has them. Mozilla's are better. Because I can guarantee you that Mozilla won't crash Gnome or KDE. Mozilla won't crash X. And Mozilla certainly won't crash Linux. IE's track record isn't so stellar.
You seem to be missing the point that people like you are the type of people that allow Microsoft to exist as a monopoly. "It just works better," you cry, and while in some messed up view of things, it might (Windows is more integrated, for instance), what will you say when there is nothing but Windows NT 2005, and you can't run any software but the software MS wants you to run?
I for one, don't want to know find that answer out experimentally.
I'm rather disappointed that there isn't a Solaris nightly build any longer. Where I am we have a network of PC's under Linux and Sparcstations under Solaris. To make Mozilla the default browser for all students we would need a Solaris build.
I discussed this on the netscape.public.mozilla.unix newsgroup, and it seems something broke the build automation process under Solaris and they didn't have time to look into it.
Speaking of which, I have never, ever, been able to build Mozilla myself, on any platform, to give something which looks even remotely like what they ship. Most of times it fails completely, and the reason for failure is not even systematic: it varies according to whether I made a CVS checkout or took a source tarball, it depends on whether I used "make" or "make all", on how I ran configure, and all sorts of things. Even typing make twice, with make clean in between does not give the same error twice. Mostly I get weird C++ errors which I don't understand because I only grok C (errors like "class fooBarMumbleBuz was instantiated with a virtual method frobnicateMeHarder whereas it only has non-virtual constructors", which really don't mean a thing). I also got a lot of unresolved symbols. Strange things.
Not even worth making a bug-report for, because nothing is systematic, every time I retry it's different.
Has anyone had more success?
It works! It works! I scoff at Netscape's puniness as Mozilla happily provides me the spectrum fading to black (and the other colors ...)
Nice!
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
Myplay locker (p2 of 555) [clr.gif]
.... 5/6ths of the beast
[sml_conr.gif] [clr.gif]
[not_play.gif] Problems playing?
[dotline_grey.gif]
555
Kate Bush
[dead_info.gif] Hounds Of Love
6:13 rock MP3 128K Edit
[ ]
[sml_play.gif] Hounds Of Love
I wonder if it'll work on Quark
Dr Skwid wrote: "Well Tim, one of the wonderful things about IE, apart from it works well as an HTML browser is the power you have in it as a program shell in an Intranet environment. [...] IE is more than an HTML renderer and Mozilla et al is never going to get a foot in the door in such an environment. Would I be correct in assuming you've not done much corporate programming?"
:) Thanks for pointing this capability out.
... please tell me if I'm speaking nonsense, but for a) a remotely hosted application with an interface written in plain old html so that all browsers could read it or b) a locally-run application written in Java, couldn't any browser that supported Java serve?
... The /. article on the last develpr's conference mentioned "XMLterm -- an Xterm-like interface written using the Mozilla component libraries" and quoted a developer .. " it's not just a browser, it's a set of tools. During the group discussion, one developer even said 'I'd like to see Mozilla come out and not have any browser with it.'
Absolutely correct on that last
I know that Mozilla doesn't have ActiveX support as you point out, but it is / can be used as the front end for some applications
And from what I read, Mozilla is more than an HTML renderer, too, isn't it? I thought one of the chief points about Mozilla was extensive componentization
Again, thanks for mentioning something I hadn't considered.
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
I too think Mozilla is currently too slow (but I believe that will change in the future), but how exactly low-end is your machine? I remember running windows 95 w/ IE 4 on a 486 dx 66.... I was running a small webserver from it, and the only way to configure it was through the web browser. It was as slow as hell! Needless to say, that box became a linux box as soon as I found out how to do NAT in linux. So, just wondering if you are suffering from the same situation.
He who knows not, and knows he knows not is a wise man
What's your system?
You use that word a lot.. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Take a look at Table renderer crashes on large tables. This may or may not be what is happening...
Yup. The pages load a wee bit slower than under NS for me, but they actually scroll more smoothly once there. Nicer UI (in my view) as well.
I'd been shy about Mozilla for a while when it kept fouling up forms or leaving artifacts all over the screen, and I skipped M15 completely, but I got brave again (over dialup no less) and my 2-nights-ago build finally works with the slashdot backend;)
"Goodbye NS4, we hardly loved ye
You said it. Hard to believe the Mozilla project is only 2 years and change out of the gate. Compare that to the ueber-funded IE and the difference is pretty amazing.
I know many people like IE, but until they release a version for Linux I can't make all that great a comparison:) Still, from using it on borrowed computers, while IE seems blandly acceptable, I don't remember anything about it which makes me hanker for That Redmond Feeling. What am I missing?
Next stop, Konqueror
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
Looks like that what's happened -- unlike yours, somehow my 2-nights-ago Mozilla build read it fine, and like yours, so did my Netscape.
Fixed it now, thanks for the pointer.
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
There is an at least partially working XSLT parser in the tree. I'm not sure how far along it is and it's not being done by the Netscape-employed Mozilla team.
Now, you bitch about Mozilla not supporting XSL, but which is better; waiting for a standard to be finalised or releasing before the standard is finalised and then finding out it's changed already? IE5 has that problem, although I note from the W3C XSL page that MS have released an update for its XSL implimentation. Now all they have to to is get namespaces working correctly.
Tne answer is so that web developers can run 2 copies of mozilla at the same time with different preferences. One might view it with a different font DPI, or with Javascript turned off.
Quite useful, actually, especially on a controlled environment where you can't create a new logon for development purposes.
Matt. Want XML + Apache + Stylesheets? Get AxKit.
M16 from 5/21/00 on my Macintosh: rendered with red squares.
The sad state of things at the moment is that multi-browser compliant code has to support the lowest common denominator (ie. NS4), so if you were doing that then you would not be able to use dotted anyway.
The sad state of things at the moment concerning multi-browser compliant code and designing to the lowest common denominator is the fact that it all could have been prevented by Microsoft. Had they felt the need to allow the internet to continue to be platform independent when they first began work on their original browser, they would have concentrated on developing html rendering as close as possible to that of the Netscape browser which, at the time, was used by the vast majority of people on the internet. Instead they spent no time ensuring consistency and all their time on monopolization strategies that have them in court right now. There have been a lot of non-standards complaint work on both sides since then, but in the begining I remember wondering, "why do all these pages look different in internet explorer".
Hopefully I didn't put any [] around my words.
Works perfectly under Linux... you should file a Bugzilla bug if you can reproduce this on Win32.
IAAL,BIANLY
Well Tim, one of the wonderful things about IE, apart from it works well as an HTML browser is the power you have in it as a program shell in an Intranet environment.
My God! Read your own words man! This wonderful Intranet program shell is an Internet program shell too! Does it ring any bell?
Netscape and Mozilla are trying to do a god job at precisely what they are supposed to do: browse the web.
Hmmm strange, methinks it still sucks!
On Windows,it crashes everytime I use it, within at least 5-10 minutes.
Also the back button doesn't always work. For example, if you go to www.theregister.co.uk, and click on a news item, when you press the back button, it doesnt take you back tot he main theregister page, it takes you back to the previous site! Whah?? This happens on other sites as well.
So, I'm sorry, but IE5 it is guys!
My advice to you, friend, is to use an account, go to the preferences page, find the "Exclude Stories from homepage" section and check "Mozilla". Because you obviously don't care. Thanks. But personally I think you'll miss out on information about what is becoming one really cool application.
It works perfectly in IE5.5
IE5.0 indeed does just red taping.
Netscape just doesn't even render the borders.
I guess IE again, wins again.
(may i just say IE5.5's circle dots look much cooler than mozilla's cheapo square dots).
Use JunkBuster. It's free software.
--
One of my favorite test pages for PNGs is this page (over at w3.org). Unfortunately, the page itself is so weirdly designed, that I can't really determine if Mozilla renders it correctly or not. I even emailed the page's author once, since I suspect there's something wrong with the correct/incorrect demo pictures, but that didn't make me smarter... Is it only me who has problems parsing a red check mark and a green cross into "correct"/"incorrect"? It just makes my brain hurt.
main(O){10<putchar(4^--O?77-(15&5128 >>4*O):10)&&main(2+O);}
Link first sighted in NTK
The recent discussion about alpha channels is about a complete and solid support for the PNG file format. GIF isn't a ./-loved format due to it's stupid license.
Stéphane
Instant Karma's gonna get you, Gonna knock you right on the head (John Lennon, 1970)
I think you lot should go easy on Mozilla, remember these are "snapshots", not official releases.
Though it's true that it is a bit slow, the latest builds are a hell of a lot faster than the older builds, and in only a few days use, I can honestly say that Mozilla rocks!
***MOZILLA***
d ownload
Few more things...
Mozilla/static/x86/linux is like 7MB compiled/gzipped. I wish they would Bzip2 the bastards. I have not tried any auto-installer for any platform...
The emailer is becoming far more competent. I will enjoy supporting it. Multiple POP3 accounts, al crossplatform. (drool) Goodbye you fucking identities.
The HTML editor is tres-slick... I'm confident it will suck cock for the first netscape release, but oh well..
Keybindings are still a bitch for all platforms. Finicky, tempremental. Fuckit. FUCKIT. I hate that.
Mozilla has the most open development of any project I can think of. No months-of-silence, open CVS tree, open mailing lists, open development discussions, open documentation, public builds for platforms on the HOUR, decent license, open source bugtracker, open buglists, open discussion, GOBS of FTP power, great feedback methods, all is very very nice. Oh yeah, and a script on the homepage that shows EVERY code update made in the last day or so, plus exceptional code navigation tools, all on the web.
Mozilla/NS may never take over every desktop, but does it really need to? It's going to fill shitloads of niches that IE in all it's forms (yeah even pocket explorer which has GOT to be completely new code) is not going to fit into... Look at the netscape4/unix builds going into web appliances... Imagine what mozilla is going to accomplish in the next 10 years...
if nothing else netscape/AOL has opened up reams of competition, both from the Opera people, and people who will turn XPCOM/mozilla into a thousand different mutants...
***LINKS***
For a text-based browser that is similar to lynx and w3m but INCREDIBLY lightweight, complete, easy-to-use, and just all around makes you want to cry with joy, please look into the GPLed 'links'.
It is written in C, compiles anywhere, is way under a meg tarballed, and is the absolute most cruft-free thing I have ever used. Press 'g', go somewhere. It is nearly impossible to describe how fundamentally nice this program is.
It does frames exceedingly well, flies with tables, and is magic over a modem. The interface is (somehow) more pleasant than lynx's and it has pulldown menus hidden with ESC for other options.
It is the most underrated browser I have ever seen. The author is a god. My only complaint is that it fights with gpm for cut and paste.
http://artax.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~mikulas/links/
-troll taker
Well, he'd probably been followed up by about 5 people complaining how /. was nothing but a playground of brainless Linux zealots. Sound familiar?
The calmer people would probably respond "IE never was relevant, considering that there's no linux version."
He wouldn't be labelled a troll, true, but that is correct, taking into account the nature of /.
Were that line posted on comp.os.windows.advocacy, then it would be a troll, just like the posting a few levels up was a troll on /.
The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer.
--Henry Kissinger
Since nobody else has said so outright, I'll remind you all the actual milestone build of m16 is not yet out. These (as others *have* said) are the nightly builds along the path to m16. These have been available since before m15 was released.
When M16 actually does come out (and it should be within a few days), it'll be available at ftp://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla/releases/m16/.
------
If a tree falls on an anonymous coward yelling 'first post' in the forest, does anybody hear?
My impression of what happens with a Mozilla milestone is that they start working on the next milestone even before the last is finalised. So although these nightly builds are aimed towards M16, it doesnt mean they are the actual milestone.
If it doesnt say on the Mozilla release page, its probably not released.
-Yarn - Rio Karma: Excellent
You just have to remember, 1) All the debuging code is still in the built. Once that is removed, it will be alot faster, and use alot less memory. 2) This is still in the Alpha Software stage. Wait for a newer version, or help out. Don't complain about something if you aren't ready and willing to do something about it =)
--pug
Is there a way to insert Java support into Linux Mozilla? Doesn't have to be perfect; just has to work...
--
Kyle R. Rose, MIT LCS
[ home ]
BillWinUsr who probably has no compiler ready
If Mozilla were using GCC for Windows, this would be no problem. Bill could just double click make.bat and play some Minesweeper, Solitaire, or Vitamins while GCC is compiling everything.
Will I retire or break 10K?
I downloaded the win32 5/19 build this morning, and immediately set out to find a good test image. After a fruitless 10 minute search, I threw open PhotoShop and made one. The resulting image is in a test page at http://www.thedragonsforge.com/pngalph a.html. Text on the page explains what the image is supposed to look like.
Dracos
"Integer: a number that represents any valid floating-point value"
which is better; waiting for a standard to be finalised or releasing before the standard is finalised and then finding out it's changed already?
No contest.
Shipping when it's workable, not waiting for the standards to settle. This is Internet Time - I barely have enough hours in the day to drink my coffee, let alone wait for the W3C. You should see the amount of Real Cash Money I've earned writing IE5 XSL product that I wouldn't have earned if I'd been waiting around, or taking the moral high ground that because IE5 wasn't compatible, then I was going to do it all server-side with XT.
Client-side XML is a big enough benefit that whilst I may not sell my own soul to get it, I'll happily lease out that of some poor support minion in a few month's time.
The M16 release is not out yet and won't be for several weeks at least! The builds you see on ftp.mozilla.org marked with M16 are nightly builds on the M16 development branch and not the final product. There is a whole bunch of bugs and stabilisation to be done before M16 will be released. It does no good to bitch and moan about the quality of M16 at the moment since nightly builds vary wildly in quality from day to day.
>I *still* don't understand the user profile >support in the Linux version - surely linux >doesn't need it, since linux is a true multiuser >system anyway?
Well, I have a set of dial in accounts from different providers, and all of them need their own set of proxy servers, POP3/SMTP to connect to. Profile support in this case would be pretty relevant. I hate to muck with the preference.js or log in and out of the system every time I use a different account.
As long as I can remember, the Mozilla builds have crashed every time it interacts with the filesystem on my Debian distro. Segfaults every time I try and save or access a file. Anyone else seen this or have a cure?
I can respect your decision if you have tried IE 5 for Macintosh and didn't like it, though I personally think it's a great browser that is less bloated than Netscape 4.7x, and it takes up less memory on my computer.
But don't say things like "Anything that's not microsoft...", as that makes you no better than the people that say creative things like CrApple and Steve "Blow" Jobs.
I'm not flaming anyone, but simply suggesting that you use a product based on its quality, and not its name.
Hacksworth
Here is how various browsers treat this:
Netscape 4.7 - no border at all
Mozilla M14 - ugly square dots
IE5 - solid border, no dots
IE5.5 - nice-looking round dots
(If anyone can do this in M16 and reply if it differs from M14, that would be good)
W3C standard (which I looked up) does specify the dotted syntax.
The sad state of things at the moment is that multi-browser compliant code has to support the lowest common denominator (ie. NS4), so if you were doing that then you would not be able to use dotted anyway.
It will be good when NS4 support is generally viewed as no longer needed.
Mozilla out of the box may well not work with Junkbuster; it requires HTTP 1.1 to be turned off in Mozilla, as Junkbuster doesn't support that.
Search Bugzilla for "Junkbuster" and you'll find the name of the pref. you have to set.
Gerv
I do not mind reading trolls that are as subtle, ingenious and entertaining as that one.
I am into the copy and paste.
Unfortunately, both IE and Netscape/Mozilla are turning into bloatware and as a Mac user I'm starting to look to other projects, such as iCab. How can I justify allocating 30MB of memory to one program ?
Stability aside (I know these shouldn't be considered in milestone builds), the last milestone build I tried was visually appalling. The user interface didn't seem to conform to anything on earth (mind you, does Quicktime or Sherlock ?) and the speed seemed to have taken a nosedive, with the HD thrashing away. (I assume the debug info is still in there).
Someone has already made comments that more Mac coders could be done with on that particular build, but I'm not sure they'll get them. When Apple signed the deal with M$ to make IE the browser of choice, it was the nail in the coffin for any other browser, and I think it's starting to show. I don't like IE, but at the same time, I'm starting not to like Netscape either. It's gradually being assimilated into the AOL ways.... yuk.
Just my 2p. I'm not sure a milestone release is newsworthy - a beta maybe...
M.
I look forward to them removing that code as the software is great aside from the speed. Anything to get the hell away from Nutscrape 4.5:)
I've been peeved for a while now about the programming behind Mozilla. It showed the kind of ugly cludges that have ruined the Windows operating system. For instance, I could always see my GTK+ theme draw its stuff before Mozilla threw on its own coat of paint, to speak figuratively. This made things horribly slow. Pixmap themes in GTK+ are bearable, but noticeably slower than the alternatives. Now, layer two on top of each other? Horrid. However, with the latest night build downloaded, I find that everything is much snappier - and I can drag links between windows. I'm pretty much happy. I think I'll switch from Netscape 4.72 now. :)
;)
Keep up the good work, guys
Dave
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
Trying to display all my tracks basically means rendering a *huge* table - 1000+ rows with gifs and links on every one.
Netscape needs abotu 256megs of memory and takes 10 minutes to do it - this is one of the reasons I'm waiting for mozilla to be able to do it (IE handles it perfectly - shame on us).
Mozilla used to be able to do it. - but the latest build dies :-( Maybe it's just because I keep adding stuff to my collection and the test is getting harder - oh well.
I can imagine some people here saying that the myplay locker design is stupid because it renders everything in one big table (well - the default is only 15 items). But you have to keep in mind that the browser from the evil empire handles it perfectly well - so shouldn't we be able to do a bit better. Arrrgghhh it's so tempting to take a look at this code myself.... as if I have any spare time...
(Why don't you go listen to some of my stuff while you're here - go on - you know that a slashdotter should be number 1. ;-)
--
$x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
$x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
It wasn't that long ago that the Mozilla UI was a title bar and a menu.
I'd say they've done amazing things in a short amount of time. Considering how ambitious the project is (a "platform", not just a browser), they've done pretty well.
WWJD? JWRTFM!!!
It means nothing of the kind. The OS X version of IE 5 is written for Apple's Carbon APIs, which make it simple for current Mac apps to be ported to OS X. Unless Apple is planning to move Carbon to FreeBSD or Linux or whatever (which is about as likely as MS GPLing Office, and would probably take quite some time and money), having IE 5 on OS X doesn't help MS on any other *nix.
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This space unintentionally left unblank.
I can't believe people are marking this post as a troll when it actually is a good informative post. So he is a little biased and angry--so what?!! This is one of the few posts that bring a little "reality" to this whole IE vs Netscape vs Mozilla thing.
how long does it take for you to build a CVS check out?
took two and a half hours this morning for me.
"think of it as evolution in action"
When you look at self-moderaters, like Signal 11, it shows that karma whoring moderators have more than one account, which is useful for, well, moderating up thier own posts.
...
When you see a one line post that reads something like "Yeah, I think thats a good idea too." by Signal 11 that is set to Score 5 Insightful, it removes all doubt that self moderation is the rule, not the exception.
Imagine that
(I browse at -1 nested, and show moderation scores just for my amusement at how biased the moderators are)
Lars -
I'm not an RFC guru, so I don't know what the standard interpretation is, but, for example, from RFC 1510:
flags
This field indicates which of various options were used or requested when the ticket was issued. It is a bit-field, where the selected options are indicated by the bit being set (1), and the unselected options and reserved fields being reset (0). Bit 0 is the most significant bit. The encoding of the bits is specified in section 5.2. The flags are described in more detail above in section 2. The meanings of the flags are:
0 RESERVED Reserved for future expansion of this field.
[snip]
12-31 RESERVED Reserved for future use.
I would interpret "reserved for future use" as "reserved for future expansion of the protocol". Admittedly, this is not rock-solid, and, since I can't find the post that said this in the first place, I can't offer anything more solid than that. (Note that IBM and others are guilty too if I'm right.)
I'll back off for the time being until I can find some better evidence.
I'm not an exclusively Microsoft guy
.oO0Oo.
Let's imagine that the phone rings and it's one of the UK's larget retailers asking "Can you write programs for our intranet, we use IE?"
do you reply :
1. No, we're Linux open Source only. We don't want your money goodbye.
2. We would if you dump all of your Microsoft products and switch to Gnome so we can use CORBA on Linux.
3. Yeah sure, that sounds interesting. Send us the spec and we'll send you a quote.
Try reading in nested or threaded and you'll see that Timothy asked :
I know many people like IE, but until they release a version for Linux I can't make all that great a comparison:) Still, from using it on borrowed computers, while IE seems blandly acceptable, I don't remember anything about it which makes me hanker for That Redmond Feeling. What am I missing?
And I thought I would share my experience with people.
Chill out mate
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
What I was mostly worried about was the "don't you dare call it.." part. It seems very defensive for no apparent reason. Linux is the kernel, GNU/Linux is the OS (or "Lignux", as pointed out by the friendly AC).
Also, I more often shorten "Benjamin" to "Ben", and if I were to meet anyone called Benedict, I can't see myself shortening their name to ben.
You use that word a lot.. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Mozilla: Makes Dots according to W3C CSS specifications.
Every Released Version Of IE5.0: Does not make dots, as required by W3C CSS specifications.
Apology accepted.
-troll taker
Not quite. IMO, trolling consists of deliberately taking such a position with the intent to generate a violent, flame-filled response. And the original poster wasn't just stating an opinion. Using rdicules like "open sores" and "long-haired, bearded wackos like [...] Linux Torebals" is flamebait, pure and simple.
The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer.
--Henry Kissinger
take it easy on the coffee next time.
HMM. 80% or 100%? HMMMMMM. My pages look like shit in IE5, and look like butter in NS6. HMMMMMM. I really should stop asking for the world here! Why don't I shut the fuck up about standards and go spend another hour reading IE5-fuckup workaround pages.
Maybe you should write standards-compliant code then, instead of shit. I dare you to produce a piece of code that IE handles contrary to W3C CSS specs.
Run on my DG/UX box. And my Sparc Linux box. And my x86 Linux box. If you're going to troll, at least come up with something that isn't so trivial to counter...
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKown
Um, where did you hear Microsoft is dropping IE/Mac?
I guess the fact that Microsoft just demonstrated IE on OS X with Apple doesn't mean anything?
And you 'suspect' they're dropping the slolaris version too? I suppose you 'suspect' they're dropping the HP-UX version too?
PNG Alpha on Win32 does not work properly yet. It's not a bug in the mozilla code but is caused by win32 platforms not supporting 8 bit masks. See bug 19283 for more info.
CSS on Mozilla is actually getting quite good. Last I checked, it was like 99% compliant with CSS1. To give credit where credit is due, IE 5 for the Mac is apparently fully compliant (but IE 5.5 for Windows isn't...the irony.)
Anyway, the most recent table of client-side XML performance I've seen is this one on xml.com, by Simon St. Laurent. In brief, Mozilla looks pretty good in this comparison. It's the only browser with XLink support of any kind, and handles a few other small things better than IE. Other than that, it's basically right up there. You mention XSL, but no browser has a standards-conforming XSLT at this point.
More interesting to see will be how well things shape up for CSS2 and DOM support, assuming DOM Level 2 ever gets unwedged. You mention SMIL, but I would have to argue that full CSS2 and W3C-compliant DOM are much more important.
Babar
Well, I've read my own words and I can't see anything to make me exclaim "My god!"
.oO0Oo.
How do my words diss Netscape and Mozilla?
Tim was asking what IE did that he wouldn't know about being a Linux weenie and all.
oh btw what they are supposed to do: browse the web.
so why do they have IRC, EMAIL, Skins, news, and loads of other bloat in them?
Next time you read oneof my posts please try and see the point
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
>WRONG!
>
>jpeg is lossy even at 100% quality. The standard >requires storing 1/4 of the Crominance and >Saturation values. (they user 4x4 pixel >Crominance and Saturation boxes for each 8x8 >pixel luminance box)
JPEG uses the YCbCr colorspace (luminance,
chroma-red, and chroma-blue). Grayscale JPEG
stores only the Y component.
The spec doesn't *require* it, although most JPEGs
do downsample the Chroma-blue and Chroma-red
components to half the spatial resolution, taking
advantage of the reduced sensitivity of the human
visual system to those components.
Even if all of the components are stored without
downsampling, though, the method can still be
lossy due to possible differences in roundoff
in the coder and decoder.
Sorry, but that's daft. Whilst the standard may have been workable, it had already changed by the time IE was released. This means that when a standards compliant implimentation is put into Mozilla, it'll still be incompatible with IE.
Speaking of standards, why is IE *still* incompatible with the DOM core standard? They had an excuse for IE4, but IE5 has no such excuses.
Heya Mozilla, how about a non-debugging build for the Milestones on those platforms w/o 'easy compile' options? Give all these THIS-POS-IS-TOO-DAMN-SLOW opportunists to see what a build looks like w/o all the debugging overhead.
Granted, you lose any option to debug problems the user may have, but perhaps at least give them the chance to see mozilla's true potential.
(fwiw, I'm downloading source and building w/ and w/o debugging enabled just for laughs.. I'm thinking more along the lines of Joe MacUsr or BillWinUsr who probably has no compiler ready. That, and I'm getting sick of the ITS-TOO-SLOW whining)
-'fester
ok you're right it is a dangerous feature when it runs code from an untrusted source. The networks I work on are generally trusted all the way. Using IE I can quickly write complicated apps that do just what the users want in a way they are familiar with which, for me, is good.
.oO0Oo.
Windows is written for a mainly trusted environment. The internet was not writ large at Redmond and they are paying a very heavy price for that now because now they're exposed to the network so is Windows.
M$ could've and should've done the Right Thing instead of the very Wrong Thing and I hope they pay a very large penalty for forcing a losing strategy on users. Well I know they will because I believe the Right Way is the fittest and thus will survive.
Tim's question was "what am I missing?" and I was hoping to fill him in on the wider picture of the IE platform as he says he's not really had the chance to delve right in.
I actually hope upon hope that Mozilla is a truly winning platform. I want my web browser to be just that and I want it to do it very well AND I want it to be Free and standard compliant.
I also appreciate good tools and IE is one of them, politics aside. (hehe a bit rich if you've seen my sig!)
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
But you don't want to use a different browser profile (especially for things like proxies) according to what dialup you used - that should be handled by the dialup system itself along with routing and DNS.
How about a local proxy that has it's upstream proxies set by the dialup script ?
I would like to see how mozilla has been progressing, but so far the win32 builds die under win2k as soon as I start it...
Application exception occurred:
App: mozilla.exe (pid=740)
When: 5/22/2000 @ 03:12:51.715
Exception number: c0000005 (access violation)
Oh, joy.
Look at the Mozilla dinosaur icon -- it looks identical to Gojira (aka Godzilla). THIS IS PLAGIARISM. Gojira (aka Godzilla) existed DECADES before the Internet was ever created, let alone the Mozilla project. And don't tell me this is just a coincidence; the name "Mozilla" is obviously intended to sound like "Godzilla". Copyright and trademark law prevents the use of similar names and logos when they are likely to confuse consumers. Well, if I was a consumer, I'd be damned confused -- a browser named "Mozilla" with a dinosaur mascot sure sounds like it's endorsed by Tojo, Inc. This is not true.
Why this has not been acted on is a mystery to me. The "Mozilla" dinosaur clearly violates Tojo, Inc's copyright on Gojira (aka Godzilla. C'mon, guys, how about choosing something a little more original -- like, say, a ferret? How many ferrets out there do you see as corporate mascots? Huh?
This post will act as an unofficial petition to the Mozilla developers to select a new mascot that does not resemble Gojira (aka Godzilla). Simply reply to this message if you want to add your name to the list.
There are some things you might want to keep in different user profiles though. Perhaps you NFS mount your home directory and access a single account form multiple boxes. In that case, you might indeed want different font sizes depending on what monitor you're using. But again, that's unrelated to your email account and shouldn't really reside in a "user profile", but a "machine profile" or "location profile". You are the same user every time.
--
Fuck the system? Nah, you might catch something.
Try margin widths expressed as percentages with a float to the side. Opera renders this by interpretting the it as x% of the available space. This seems to me what is implied by the box model. But IE 5 interprets these as x% of the total width of the containing box, which makes absolutely zero sense to me.
I don't have a spec handy, and I don't remember whether it's width or margin that breaks it, but I do know I wanted to fucking strangle the IE developers after spending 4 hours tweaking my new homepage in IE and then having it break horribly in Opera, NS and Mozilla.
It turned me off to web design, and sent me back to text only, 1993 style pages until Mozilla is actually usable.
You can pick up some icons for Mozilla here and here. Also be sure to look at some of the skins you can get for Mozilla here .
-AU
I never said they suck...just trying to give Microsoft credit here.
:D~, etc)...and even how their buildings and attitudes.
/. seem to think they're fighting the good fight against this great evil.
And "Microsoft's Sin's"??? PUUULEEEASE don't tell me you're that naive.
What Microsoft has done is what EVERY OTHER COMPANY has done...and some have done worse. Microsoft just do it better.
I think Microsoft is one of america's best companies, they have good work ethic, the company has a good CEO (who doesn't spend his time vashing his competitors personally - you listening mcneally?) and has a genuine interest in technology.
The company gives shitloads to charity, they give their employees good deals - much better than the average company (such as payouts if you have adopted children, equal deals to sam-sex partner ships, free coke
For being the biggest software company in the world (and one of the biggest companies overall) they're pretty non-evil.
And gates is pretty cool for the richest man in the world, he still drives himself round, really loves technology, and can still be seen jumping up to touch the ceiling...that sort of thing.
I can certainly imagine best.
Why does everyone on
Seems just a weee bit pretentious to consider yourselves the new patriots of the new milllenium. Face it. GPL is not about free speech, and you're not fighting evil. You're just being silly, and the rest of the industry is laughing at you.
Grow up.
thanks for replying Tim.
.exe files sent by friends. I do cross my fingers as I double click though luckily I use a mixed network (Linux & FreeBSD) so I don't have much to lose on my Windows boxen 'cept a couple of hours re-installing.
.oO0Oo.
I think from the replies I / we've had about this seem to point to one thing.
Browsers seem to be becoming the starting block for RAD tools. Using HTML to lay out forms is much nicer than using a form creator tied to a subset of the available platforms but this approach bites off a lot and takes plenty of time to chew. There are a lot of people to please but 80% of them won't use the super features of COM/Corba for quite some time, if ever. Running executable content from remote sites presents plenty of headaches balancing security with functionality.
MS tipped their hat towards functionality early on and have paid the price with wide security holes in IE and Outlook and goodness knows where. They now have an architecture with fundamental flaws which Win2k doesn't even address. I think they are in a big mess; a personal computer company drowning in the network. They've always been weak with networking which is why Novell beat them into the ground for the LAN and Unix beats them into the ground on the WAN.
Other software companies / projects should take note. Problems come when you try and cram loads of things into a small space. When e-mail was text everything was just fine. I don't remember any security problems with Bluewave! I enjoy having HTML enabled news and mail. I regularly run
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
> Is this relevant anymore? I mean, what can Mozilla do that IE doesn't do already?
Good question. Here's your good answer: It can be uncoupled from windows, in fact, it never was coupled with windows. It's solaris build (I assume) won't be a half-win32 port built in to let the browser run. Windows is big, yes. But mac, UN*X, BeOS and friends aren't dead. Netscape 4.xx is dead, thou. imho, and anyone arguing that it *doesn't* need to be replaced needs mental help. Matter of fact, a dyed in wool MS friend of mine *likes* mozilla, so I know you're just a troll and most MS windows users are more polite than yourself.
Sorry if this sounds bitter, spend half the day in meetings instead of doing what I needed to do.
bash: ispell: command not found
This sig left intentionally blank.
Yeah OK Java.
/. rants :-)
.oO0Oo.
Exactly what the world needed.
I've worked in places that switched to Java for that very reason (Experian).
I can't knock it. I even wrote my first suite of image processing software in java for the Boo Radleys video (see web site). I like it.
But when you are in a fully Windows environment it can make sense to stick to IE. Besides I just wanted to do the whole thing in VB script to see what it was like 'cos it's nice to work in all environments so that you can make judgements based on first hand experience rther than rely on the opinions of people that may well have never written a piece of production code in their lives but have read plenty of
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
Okay, only tried the last thing once. The first was totally reproducable though. Probably bad JavaScript on Nasdaq. But it's bad form for a browser to just give up like that. And on Bugzilla, too?
Other than that, it looks like it's taking a number of welcome leaps forward.
"with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
Does Mozilla handle client-side XML yet ? And NO I don't mean the piss-poor CSS implementation that the earlier builds had.
I hate the Redmond behemoth as much as the next /.'er, but they've given me client-side XML in IE5, with an XSL that is weird, but usable. Until I get the same from Mozilla, I won't be switching my own desktop's browser. I'm even starting to not worry about writing IE-only code on public client sites (oh, the sweet temptation of this heresy, for which I shall certainly burn in the volcanic fires of monster island)
Lately, I have mainly been running IE 5.5 (with a SMIL). Mozilla is getting a long way behind.
Whoa, remind me not to read /. so late at night...For a second there, I thought that AOL/Mozilla was thinking of buying up the British Secret Service.
"Anybody who tells me I can't use a program because it's not open source, go suck on rms. I'm not interested." (LT 2004)
Really, this should be on top (+5). I can see why this would confuse people who don't regularly browse the mozilla.org FTP site, but it should be made clear that builds have been labeled as M16 since the day after M15. Despite that labeling, it isn't M16 until it is announced by mozilla.org. Of course, that should be within the week, and it isn't a big error on /.s part, but /.rs should still be aware that what they are getting isn't the real thing.
IAAL,BIANLY
1) In Mozilla M16, use your mouse to highlight a string of text.
2) Select COPY from the menu and watch the CPU usage jump up over 50%
3) Use your mouse to to select a large (10 or 20 pages) block of text and watch the CPU usage jump above 65%
Can this be true? Can something as simple as plunking to the clipboard be that CPU intensive?
Perhaps the open and extensable UI can be compiled for runtime or perhaps I could just wait for the 1Ghz Athlon.
___
Latest nightly builds
M16 builds have been appearing for ages. The nightly builds are named after the upcomming milestone, so when M15 comes out all nightlies are now called M16... Take a look at the directory structure...
On related stuff the new builds are getting quite a bit faster and now have stuff like autocomplete in them. There was a feature freeze not long ago so we should (hopefully) see builds becoming more stable.
Linux moz is looking good although some old favourites (such as the scrollbars coming free bug) are still there.
The mac builds are still lagging behind other platforms which is a shame. We really do need more mac helpers to stop it becoming a third rate platform (in terms of the quality of it's mozilla builds).
From the little testing I've done on Windoze those builds seem good too.
Plugs/Links:
Visit Mozillazine! It has a build bar that informs you how good previous builds are.
Hang out in #mozillazine. If you've got irc (and you should because moz has one built in which can be launched from the prompt using mozilla -chat) use /server irc.mozilla.org then /join #mozillazine
Got spare time and a fast connection? Help Smoketest the daily builds.
New to mozilla? Take a look at NewZilla
Children, children, children. Have you not written a large application before? Do you not realize that a stable codebase does not necessarily imply a stable application? There's this thing called foundation code and that's what I'm referring to when I say "stable codebase". The fact that a bunch of crap surrounding that codebase crashes does not imply anything about the foundation code. It's still a solid foundation and I still say it's getting better all the time.
Or are you two just a couple of trolls? Did I take the bait? Ah well, so be it.
Few other competitors to Microsoft have anything like as god as 25% market penetration. It's still competition. Netscape is in a very good position to gain ground if MS rest on their laurels.
In the meantime you're sleeping in at home, dreaming about the day people stop believing in things you don't give a shit about, you fat faggot fuck.
Noone with a brain could argue Netscape 1-4 did everything great. I wish it would die, I hate it to death. NS 6 is another ballgame completely, cuntface.
You bag of shit.
Who pissed on your parade? Just because you don't like what he said there was no need for that kind of abusive diatribe was there? Okay he came off a little strong and you disagreed, but your otherwise good post was spoiled by the childish flames.
Very nice. Definity an improvement of M15. It's still not all that fast though; and there's still a couple of noticable bugs in it. At least the stupid bookmark bug ( 11586 ) was fixed.
/etc/hosts so that way I odn't have to view the damn ads. But now everytime I come to a page with them on their, I get a dialog box saying "The connection was refused when trying to contact [insert blocked domain here]". It's really annoying, and it's the first time it's ever happened, since with IE5, N4.7, and M15, it never had any dialog box complaining about not being able to contact that particular server. Basically I'm asking if there is any way to turn this thing off.
One pretty major problem though, at least for me, is a stupid dialog box coming up evertyime I hit a page that I've blocked. I have certain domain's blocked (like ad.doubleclick.net, a dforce.imgis.com, etc) in
Well Tim, one of the wonderful things about IE, apart from it works well as an HTML browser is the power you have in it as a program shell in an Intranet environment.
.oO0Oo.
I've written apps for it that are used in one of the UK's largest retailers (Boots). Their intranet is a WAN spread throughout the UK. To distribute that application (ActiveX Controls and all) all we had to do was place it on one web server and e-mail out the URL or just link to it from other places (such as the internal forums). As we find things that need changing or bugs we just change/fix them and put it up on the web server. Nothing to distribute.
IE is more than an HTML renderer and Mozilla et al is never going to get a foot in the door in such an environment.
Would I be correct in assuming you've not done much corporate programming?
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
<HEAD>
<TITLE>
I've been karma-whoring on the slashdot, all the livelong day.
</TITLE>
<STYLE type="text/css">
P {border-style: dotted ; border-color: red}
</STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<P>This proves I am a fundamentally better person than you in every way. I hope parasites eat your colon and you die soon. Perhaps they'll look like the little red dots that are around this little sentiment. Unless you use IE, in which case you're going to be eaten alive by red tapeworms which will be shitting red string until you die.</P>
</BODY>
</HTML>
-troll taker
I've been following the Mozilla stuff on and off since it first started. I can finally say this thing is starting to look nice! I knew it had a solid codebase for a while, but I was never convinced the UI look-and-feel guys were ever going to pull it all together right. Looks like they're on the right track these days. I'm using it now and although it *has* crashed a couple times, it's becoming considerably more difficult. And it's FAST! I love it! I'll definitely start trying to use this thing more as my default browser.
If MIT didn't want proprietry information used with kerberos, they never should have had the fields to allow microsoft to do that.
microsoft kerberos doesn't break anything, it'll work fine with existing kerberos frameworks.
I saw a good discussion of portabilitiy concerns and one lept out at me. Most operating systems hand you back the least recently used block of memory when you ask for more so that if you have dangling pointers you are likely to not be using them any more. W2K deliberately hands back the most recently used one which means that if you made a mistake, you find out about it immediately.
This shows that someone at the OS division is serious about long-term stability. Forcing people to catch errors right away is a good quality control step. But in the meantime it means that a lot of things die on W2K, and in many of those cases the error really matters.
OTOH W2K changed a lot of other things, big chunks of it are a piece of cack, and all that. So this could just be yet another piece of W2K stupidity. But they should not conclude that until they check that they are not responsible...
Cheers,
Ben
PS I think it would be nice if there was a version of Linux that provided a stress-test for errors that should be handled. Constantly giving EAGAIN exceptions. handing back recently used memory, etc.
My usual seat in the cluetrain is at A HREF="http://pub4.ezboard.com/biwethey.ht
I mean, what can Mozilla do that IE doesn't do already?
Offer sufficient competition to MS to ensure that they bother to keep improving IE.
The link works for me both in Netscape and Mozilla ... am I doing something funny?
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
I hope they tighten the code up some so it may be usable on low end machines as it has a FANTASTIC amount of promise. The programmers kick ass!
I *still* don't understand the user profile support in the Linux version - surely linux doesn't need it, since linux is a true multiuser system anyway?
As far as I can tell, the user profile stuff is redundant and confusing - allowing Alice to have Alice, Bob and Chris users configured in her ~alice/.mozilla/ directory, as well as having separate ~bob/.mozilla/ and ~chris/.mozlla/ users on the system...
I mean, why not just make the preferences user-specific ?
We weren't doing that. We were calling someone who was posting a "different opinion" embedded in falmes and flamebait a troll, and rightfully so.
The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer.
--Henry Kissinger
There was a fact in there somewhere? Must have missed it.
I dare you to produce a piece of code that IE handles contrary to W3C CSS specs.
I know you said CSS specs, but IE 5 can't get HTML 4 right yet. Ever tried using <OBJECT>? Hell, there's parts of HTML 2 that IE 5 still hasn't got around to supporting.
They need a compile option to use native GTK controls instead of their own UI library. Though the renderer is pretty quick, their UI code feels sluggish, even on the high powered machines I've tried it on. And I want my browser to fit in with my desktop theme without my having to go in and configure something else (I already have to set my theme up both in my Window manager and in my widget set.)
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Using the Win32 version of M16 found at the ftp site on the box at work, and the PNG alpha test site found here, I got these results. Not quite what I had hoped for. I will test both the Win32 and Linux builds on my personal box when I get home today.
_______
Scott Jones
Newscast Director / ABC19 WKPT
Commodore 64 Democoder
FC Closer
Crack is more than that where I live, in astonishing coincidence I do have cancer, and I cannot stop. I am compelled to share my Utter Truth with the world.
This T3 isn't going to clog itself ya know.
-troll taker
Are you sure it is reserved as in don't use?
I was under the understanding it was reserved as in reserved for custom data.
In my moz build (052109) the link appears to have /A on the end of it. NS 4 doesn't seem to see this though so I guess it's moz being quirky again.
I disagree, on the grounds that IE was *better* than NS's effort (which looked good at the time, but now we see that it was poor). The quality of browsers now is much higher than it may well have been if IE's developers had restricted it to NS's weak capacity.
The defined standards by the W3C now exceed both browsers' current capabilities, although IE and Mozilla are both racing towards it. Again, this is good for progress.
I would like to cite the following case for comparison: personal computer hardware.
The common Intel x86 hardware design (IRQs, 640k base mem, etc.) is clearly inferior to other designs (Amiga, Mac, etc.). The 8086 etc. wasn't even the most powerful chip around at the time.
As a side note, Intel's dominance can only be attributed to strong marketing on the part of itself and IBM; and the DOS operating system (revolutionary in its time).
The point is, by hook or by crook, the inferior hardware gained market dominance, and naturally, the companies making money out of it strove to keep it that way, at the expense of the end users. Look at the hideous legacy we are left with from the days of the early eighties... Windows 98 being the biggest eyesore, crippled and unstable because of the need to support the software explosing written for the non-scalable DOS operating system on Intel hardware.
If only it had been done right in the first place.
I'm glad Netscape didn't become the standard.
Timothy assumes that since M16 is available, it must be ok to download it and do whatever you want with it.
And he's prefectly correct to assume so because of the nature of the Mozilla project, which he and everyone here knows about.
Everyone and their brother assumes that since mp3's are up on Napster, they're available for everyone as a God-given right, and anyone who tries to take that away is a filthy communist, etc. If somebody runs a w4r3z site, it's completely legit to download software from it (it was posted, right, so it must be ok!),
That's idiotic. No-one in their right mind, and hardly anyone here on /. really thinks that way. Heck, I how stupid would one have to be to associate "communism" with an attempt to protect a copyright, given that that's the exact opposite of communistic ideals?
The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer.
--Henry Kissinger
Uh huh
So what you're saying is lets go and compare release versions of IE to prebeta versions of Mozilla.
Gee slashdot is on a roll today.
For real, M16 and all the nightlies are becoming ridiculously good...
Experiences with Win32/x86/133/40/unloaded:
Fast on a 133/40 box... no shit... I spent an hour or two testing my CSS pages and it didn't crash once... The flakiness from generating new browser windows is almost gone...
The sidebar is ACTUALLY cool.. check out cnn.com with NS6PR1 to see how cool questionless/seamless sidebar/install can be.. This ISN'T like those shitty IE4/5 toolbar conquests from noname companies... It just slips in, giving actually cool information and shit...
The UI has calmed down lots... it is clean, rather functional, and what's best, can be COMPLETELY OVERHAULED to be faster/better/simpler/more-complex, ANYTHING...
Mozilla isn't just a lets-clone-netscape thing anymore, it's a big collection of XPCOMponents that you can use to create apps... Mozilla is just one of them..
The default mozilla/netscape skin is still pretty damn slow but managable on my win32/x86/100/40 you will see mozilla FLY when the lighter-weight skins are made... I have used them and they just feel so much lighter...
Experiences with linux 2.2/x86/90mhz/32MB
this machine is used for like three different services and at the time had 6 people using it, plus three people using X apps all over the network...
It was SLOW. FUCKING SLOW.
It took forever to unpack.. It took forever to load.. it took FOREVER for anything to happen...
Then i realized it was running almost entirely in swap, and still hadn't crashed.. that was cool..
The machine was RIDICULOUSLY burded at the time, so i can forgive it...
Experiences on linux 2.2/x86/400/128
Ridiculously fast. Ridiculously good. First time user startup in under 15 seconds... from there on out, starts up in 3 seconds... if mostly cached in memory starts up in under a second...
Crashes are becoming significantly more difficult to find... it is now more pleasant to use than NS4 for me... less UI niggles... FASTER. Good.
Goodbye netscape 4... FUCK IT.... Mozilla is going to be so radically more modifiable and fluid and extensible and NICE... oh wait, it already IS.
Goodbye NS4, we hardly loved ye...
P.S.: crystal-note-perfect CSS is an utter joy... my heart leaps...
from coworker: "where are your graphics stored?" (referring to complex CSS1 box with lots of color-tricks on no-graphic page)
-troll taker
Excuse me?
The lowest common denominator is Netscape, and it's a SAD SAD SAD state.
IE5.x obviously supports FAR FAR more W3C standards than any release version of Netscape.
Why the hell should Microsoft follow Netscape's standards huh? Yeah, Microsoft should implement blink, or maybe layer?
Why don't you open your eyes?
You remind me of people complaining about office creating pages not viewable in netscape....just funny how they view properly in mozilla. It's just cause microsoft actually generates MODERN html, not 3 year old HTML.
Who gives a crap about netscape if they can't keep up.
--
$x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
$x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;