While security should be a focus and currently is not, it is not the programmers fault for the screw ups. I saw one post mention that everyone else is responsible for their actions...Try making a computer run with lines of text...Programming is a bit different that lines of [code] Computer: go to internet Computer: go to slashdot.com [/code] People don't understand what programming is like. While some people like it, have a knack for it, etc it is difficult to catch every possible problem.
Take an application, a mid-large sized application, that is like 50+/- thousand lines of code and really tell me that you can debug the entire thing in a timely way? It does become very cost-inefficient.
Now, I do agree that security should be a focus of software development companies but look from all sides. Security should be a huge concern of companies and it should be the companies responsibility to provide the resources for security efforts. NOT the programmer.
As the first post mentioned, if you start requiring programmers to hedge liabilities you will see many programmers drop from the field due to the cost alone and you will find that your rants about security will escalate due to the lack of good programmers...
It seems obvious to me that this would be an outcome...in fact i'm surprised it hasn't happened already. The population is massive and so i would easily expect this to happen.
any why would the govt. get involved with this. A village is not going check to see what games your kid/grand kid is playing.
This is quite rediculous but has the same premise of the stupid cyber nanny crap. It will work for some but you will always have people hacking and cracking it up. Therefore the success rate of it will just be in initial profit due to the fact that kids will evade the measures. Digital information is hard to control.
Parents need to, as many have stated, talk with their kids...explain maturity and responsibility...BUT also parents need to realize that by placing constant restrictions on ANYONE will just make people feel like doing it or breaking through. Unless there are dire consequences I will try to do what you tell me not to. We need to understand this and stop placing restrictions.
mnsho
- nc
One thing you have to remember though is that should linux pick up as a desktop enviro it will have spyware and viruses written for it. Granted linux has it's security measures but it also has buggy code that people will exploit. Much less than MS which is why i use linux and am an advocate for it. But We sometimes also have to look at the other side to make sure that we are critical of all and not just one because 'our choice reigns supreme'.
I do agree with you though that the linux desktop market will take a while to grow unless some REALLY good apps are built that make windows look like a chump in the eyes of the users. Many more people have heard of linux but still are reluctant because all they know is that the high tech people use it and it's complicated to learn. They want a graphical interface. When i hear this i mention the window managers and just start to get the glossy look from the windows user...:(
While i think you are slightly missguided in that MS should be bashed from time to time, it helps to regulate and keep things in check, i think you have an elemnt of truth to your statement.
I am a linux user and I love linux, in fact i recommend it to everyone i know. Why? Because it is better but the first question always asked is. Can i learn it fast and is it easy to use. Last night i saw a live comedian. He was talking about computers and and one of his jokes was directed at the software developers that try to do TOO MUCH but expect the user to be able to pick up. he just wanted to point and click
IF (keyword) we want to increase the number of linux users then we need to develop better software for usability that isn't nearly as clunky as gnome. Also, the driver situation needs to get better, that heavily relates to the HW manuf. but still it needs to be better. Things should happen easier.
Now i read a long time ago about how the linux power users dont want the windows users to come over. The tradeoff would be too many questions related to how do i...This happens anyways with new users switching over but imagine a person coming from windows...Where is my "My Documents" folder? Multiply that by even just 25% of the Windows user base that doesn't have a clue about the linux structure and you get an insane amount of BS repetitive questions. It becomes a hassle.
My point is that if we want to increase the user base for Desktops then we need to do some massive programming for it. If we want to increase the server side then we need some MASSIVE marketing schemes that don't attack MS directly but state exactly what it is that linux can do to fulfill the needs of the people buying it. IBM has some great ads a few years ago detailing some things that could work. There is expense in it but there needs to be some important pressure in the marketing to make those execs forget about that expense or show them that it's less than running M$ Windows Server 2003...
If we dont want to increase the user base then lets just make it work for what we want and need so that it's cool as hell...who cares about if it's complex, we all know what we are doing...screw the rest right!?:)
Yes but if you develop the design then power is just secondary and can be interchangeable at the point that it has to be. Soon in the future there will be extremely efficient methods of alternative fuels and those can then be used. While they will cost a good deal starting out, it should become much more cost effective as it will be a necessity.
You are correct that today the cost of oil is high and will be so, but it is not the end all to travel by vehicles. This is something that MUST be recognized. An alternative will be produced.
A couple of years ago i was searching for a distro that would challenge what i knew in linux but also be easy enough to learn with that I could quickly become a power user in linux. I chose Gentoo due to some reviews online, and I've never looked back. I am a gentoo'er for good unless they really botch it up and then i'll just use the version of the distro i was happy with until something better comes along. For now, i haven't seen anything better, although there are some prepackaged distros that are nice as quick tools such as phlack I can install everything i need into gentoo with emerge...and then work from there. GO GENTOO...
sorry bout the non-deb response...:)
From my experience, I hate to read books...They are boring to me. I both need and want something exciting that will entertain my mind. In fact the people arguing that computers are lowering scores and such need to review the other pieces. What is really important, a test score? I don't believe so. In the world where jobs are held people don't take tests as methods of productivity...People work on projects and other similar pieces. So why is it important to get good grades on a damn test? It is important to understand the concepts which are gained through experience. But if I can't perform on a test, which is a set time frame, with a group of questions, then should I be burdened?
No. The problem today is with the education system. If we are going to compare education and business then it would most likely make sense to use a productivity approach. Teach students to work in groups and solo on projects. Make the projects challenging and exciting. If people aren't learning due to the current teaching methods, change the methods. You can't expect a whole era of people to change the way they are learning simply because you find them to be getting lower test scores. Figure out a different method to teach them. Instead of saying "Ok we will have a test on line equations." Say "We are going to be doing projects with equations of lines and then to show that you have understood that we will have a quiz/test" The projects are a reinforcement of the material rather than just going with a straight lecture.
Someone mentioned something about Asian school systems. Those systems are good in their structure ONLY because the system is so strict that it can be rigid like that and succeed. So if we want to, again, change the way our era of people are learning and doing things in an entire cultural revolution, then sure...it makes sense...otherwise, go back and rethink your process.
To go back to the argument about computers. While distracting, I think that because of computers and my involvement I have learned SO much more than I would have otherwise. Books bore me as I stated earlier. Art is not fun for me because I suck at it. However, I can take the different concepts from math and apply them to 3D worlds in a computer simulation that I've developed and know that I understand those concepts. Why? Because I can apply them. I know that I can take the Collision System and revert it back to basic Multivariable Calc and Linear Algebra...Try telling a person who works it all out on paper to apply it to that system from scratch. Probably wont happen, I've seen this happen. It is certainly important to be able to look at differnt things such as a math equation or a poem and be able to derive or extract values or meanings from those, but it is also VERY important to see the application of it. Projects get you application. Computers have been a VERY useful aid in my educational experience and, I would argue, many other people have found the same results.
while i haven't used Word Perfect in a long time...or any corel software in a long time, i find it very difficult to see where WP would be far superior to OpenOffice. In fact...I really don't think that open office would have come up at this meeting...The govt is pretty affraid of open source software. I worked for them and open standards are not their cup of tea...They are still heavily involved in M$ and old crappy technology, thats what I saw in the tech dept i was in for a while.
Also, I don't mind so much that the money is moving somewhere else but it is entirely illogical to continue to spend money for a similar product that is free. I don't care who you are and what govt agency you are with. It makes more sense, if the product is as good or even maybe a little less, to not spend the money directly and then pay a developer 70,000 a year to finish it up and fix it or a team of developers...it would be less costly than the 2 mill they are paying now...
Also, Open Office has just released 2.0 Beta, and while it is in beta it could prove to be the best alternative now. So it is just more wasted cash.
just my thoughts...
- nc
Slashdot Mirror
lol, see my point :)
While security should be a focus and currently is not, it is not the programmers fault for the screw ups.
I saw one post mention that everyone else is responsible for their actions...Try making a computer run with lines of text...Programming is a bit different that lines of
[code]
Computer: go to internet
Computer: go to slashdot.com
[/code]
People don't understand what programming is like. While some people like it, have a knack for it, etc it is difficult to catch every possible problem.
Take an application, a mid-large sized application, that is like 50+/- thousand lines of code and really tell me that you can debug the entire thing in a timely way? It does become very cost-inefficient.
Now, I do agree that security should be a focus of software development companies but look from all sides. Security should be a huge concern of companies and it should be the companies responsibility to provide the resources for security efforts. NOT the programmer.
As the first post mentioned, if you start requiring programmers to hedge liabilities you will see many programmers drop from the field due to the cost alone and you will find that your rants about security will escalate due to the lack of good programmers...
It seems obvious to me that this would be an outcome...in fact i'm surprised it hasn't happened already. The population is massive and so i would easily expect this to happen.
any why would the govt. get involved with this. A village is not going check to see what games your kid/grand kid is playing.
This is quite rediculous but has the same premise of the stupid cyber nanny crap. It will work for some but you will always have people hacking and cracking it up. Therefore the success rate of it will just be in initial profit due to the fact that kids will evade the measures. Digital information is hard to control.
Parents need to, as many have stated, talk with their kids...explain maturity and responsibility...BUT also parents need to realize that by placing constant restrictions on ANYONE will just make people feel like doing it or breaking through. Unless there are dire consequences I will try to do what you tell me not to. We need to understand this and stop placing restrictions. mnsho - nc
One thing you have to remember though is that should linux pick up as a desktop enviro it will have spyware and viruses written for it. Granted linux has it's security measures but it also has buggy code that people will exploit. Much less than MS which is why i use linux and am an advocate for it. But We sometimes also have to look at the other side to make sure that we are critical of all and not just one because 'our choice reigns supreme'.
I do agree with you though that the linux desktop market will take a while to grow unless some REALLY good apps are built that make windows look like a chump in the eyes of the users. Many more people have heard of linux but still are reluctant because all they know is that the high tech people use it and it's complicated to learn. They want a graphical interface. When i hear this i mention the window managers and just start to get the glossy look from the windows user...:(
While i think you are slightly missguided in that MS should be bashed from time to time, it helps to regulate and keep things in check, i think you have an elemnt of truth to your statement.
:)
I am a linux user and I love linux, in fact i recommend it to everyone i know. Why? Because it is better but the first question always asked is. Can i learn it fast and is it easy to use. Last night i saw a live comedian. He was talking about computers and and one of his jokes was directed at the software developers that try to do TOO MUCH but expect the user to be able to pick up. he just wanted to point and click
IF (keyword) we want to increase the number of linux users then we need to develop better software for usability that isn't nearly as clunky as gnome. Also, the driver situation needs to get better, that heavily relates to the HW manuf. but still it needs to be better. Things should happen easier.
Now i read a long time ago about how the linux power users dont want the windows users to come over. The tradeoff would be too many questions related to how do i...This happens anyways with new users switching over but imagine a person coming from windows...Where is my "My Documents" folder? Multiply that by even just 25% of the Windows user base that doesn't have a clue about the linux structure and you get an insane amount of BS repetitive questions. It becomes a hassle.
My point is that if we want to increase the user base for Desktops then we need to do some massive programming for it. If we want to increase the server side then we need some MASSIVE marketing schemes that don't attack MS directly but state exactly what it is that linux can do to fulfill the needs of the people buying it. IBM has some great ads a few years ago detailing some things that could work. There is expense in it but there needs to be some important pressure in the marketing to make those execs forget about that expense or show them that it's less than running M$ Windows Server 2003...
If we dont want to increase the user base then lets just make it work for what we want and need so that it's cool as hell...who cares about if it's complex, we all know what we are doing...screw the rest right!?
JMNSHO
- nc
Yes but if you develop the design then power is just secondary and can be interchangeable at the point that it has to be. Soon in the future there will be extremely efficient methods of alternative fuels and those can then be used. While they will cost a good deal starting out, it should become much more cost effective as it will be a necessity.
You are correct that today the cost of oil is high and will be so, but it is not the end all to travel by vehicles. This is something that MUST be recognized. An alternative will be produced.
A couple of years ago i was searching for a distro that would challenge what i knew in linux but also be easy enough to learn with that I could quickly become a power user in linux. I chose Gentoo due to some reviews online, and I've never looked back. I am a gentoo'er for good unless they really botch it up and then i'll just use the version of the distro i was happy with until something better comes along. For now, i haven't seen anything better, although there are some prepackaged distros that are nice as quick tools such as phlack I can install everything i need into gentoo with emerge...and then work from there. GO GENTOO... sorry bout the non-deb response... :)
From my experience, I hate to read books...They are boring to me. I both need and want something exciting that will entertain my mind. In fact the people arguing that computers are lowering scores and such need to review the other pieces. What is really important, a test score? I don't believe so. In the world where jobs are held people don't take tests as methods of productivity...People work on projects and other similar pieces. So why is it important to get good grades on a damn test? It is important to understand the concepts which are gained through experience. But if I can't perform on a test, which is a set time frame, with a group of questions, then should I be burdened?
t wain.html/ This is the approach I've taken and will continue to take!
No. The problem today is with the education system. If we are going to compare education and business then it would most likely make sense to use a productivity approach. Teach students to work in groups and solo on projects. Make the projects challenging and exciting. If people aren't learning due to the current teaching methods, change the methods. You can't expect a whole era of people to change the way they are learning simply because you find them to be getting lower test scores. Figure out a different method to teach them. Instead of saying "Ok we will have a test on line equations." Say "We are going to be doing projects with equations of lines and then to show that you have understood that we will have a quiz/test" The projects are a reinforcement of the material rather than just going with a straight lecture.
Someone mentioned something about Asian school systems. Those systems are good in their structure ONLY because the system is so strict that it can be rigid like that and succeed. So if we want to, again, change the way our era of people are learning and doing things in an entire cultural revolution, then sure...it makes sense...otherwise, go back and rethink your process.
To go back to the argument about computers. While distracting, I think that because of computers and my involvement I have learned SO much more than I would have otherwise. Books bore me as I stated earlier. Art is not fun for me because I suck at it. However, I can take the different concepts from math and apply them to 3D worlds in a computer simulation that I've developed and know that I understand those concepts. Why? Because I can apply them. I know that I can take the Collision System and revert it back to basic Multivariable Calc and Linear Algebra...Try telling a person who works it all out on paper to apply it to that system from scratch. Probably wont happen, I've seen this happen. It is certainly important to be able to look at differnt things such as a math equation or a poem and be able to derive or extract values or meanings from those, but it is also VERY important to see the application of it. Projects get you application. Computers have been a VERY useful aid in my educational experience and, I would argue, many other people have found the same results.
I believe it was Mark Twain who once said, "Don't let schooling interfere with your education." http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/m/mark_
while i haven't used Word Perfect in a long time...or any corel software in a long time, i find it very difficult to see where WP would be far superior to OpenOffice. In fact...I really don't think that open office would have come up at this meeting...The govt is pretty affraid of open source software. I worked for them and open standards are not their cup of tea...They are still heavily involved in M$ and old crappy technology, thats what I saw in the tech dept i was in for a while. Also, I don't mind so much that the money is moving somewhere else but it is entirely illogical to continue to spend money for a similar product that is free. I don't care who you are and what govt agency you are with. It makes more sense, if the product is as good or even maybe a little less, to not spend the money directly and then pay a developer 70,000 a year to finish it up and fix it or a team of developers...it would be less costly than the 2 mill they are paying now... Also, Open Office has just released 2.0 Beta, and while it is in beta it could prove to be the best alternative now. So it is just more wasted cash. just my thoughts... - nc