Because I'm me and I know me. I would choose to protect innocent lives as much as possible and that would mean turning myself in. Even if I hated the US government policies and programs, it does not mean I would hate the troops or whatever CIA assets are spread around the world exploited by the forces of the US government.
And here I thought that fear of the terrorist bogeyman was bad enough...
Can you blame me for not trusting Snowden? The real question is why you trust him so much. If the NSA gave him as much info as they claim they did then they fucked up but at the same time he made a very poor decision which could cost innocent people their lives depending on what he has.
Well, one thing we do know is that he didn't just hand it over indiscriminately to anyone in the past. That strongly suggests that he's not out to just hurt the U.S.
Now you can cook up any number of paranoid scenarios if you like (as you could with anyone who has access to this data). But it presumes a change of attitude on his part that he has heretofore not shown.
He doesn't have a choice anymore. And no it's not paranoid at all to think all the spy agencies in the world would like to talk to him.
Just like it's not paranoid to think the CIA wanted to talk to Assange in Sweden. It's what they do. But the point here is Snowden already is talking to them, he's already in Moscow. He's no longer in a position not to negotiate with them. He no longer has the option not to give them whatever they want. We don't even know where he is, he could be getting interrogated right now and we can't know.
A change in attitude should be expected when you're a prisoner of an intelligence agency is all I'm saying.
I think the countries being spied upon would argue your point.
Also, the leak on the G8 spying was a side affect. What he was actually leaking was their methods, used in the US and the UK to do illegal spying, and in those documents they use the G8 as an example. Also, the revelation that they are spying on the G8 is one of the most important pieces of information released... their excuse this entire time has been that they are defending against terrorism. But clearly the G8 operation was an attempt to gain economic advantage.
So he leaked sources and methods. That is exactly what shouldn't have been leaked.
What exactly does he have on those four laptops? So far he has pretty much only released a few PowerPoint slides, a few documents. That doesn't take much space. What does he have that he hasn't released? What does he intend to do with it? A little bargaining maybe? What will his source of income be, and from whom?
So your assertion is that because he COULD release this information to foreign intelligence agencies, that that makes him just as guilty as everyone who HAS?!? Well, in that case, you had better arrest everyone else who has access to classified information (all 4.9 million of them), since they could presumably become spies any day now too.
You claim that the surveillance being conducted by the NSA was illegal - what is your source for that?
The 4th amendment to the United States Constitution.
If he's in Russia right now and the news reports are true that he did not board the plane to Cuba then chances are he is being interrogated and everything he has is being given. He isn't in any position to be in any kind of control, they have control of him physically and can interrogate him for as long as it takes.
This is what Snowden gave to the media. We don't know how many other details like this he has to hand over. The fact that he's now in Russia could mean that he's handing over gigs detailed of information he had stored somewhere. WE JUST DO NOT KNOW.
This is all you got? Everyone who disagrees with you on Snowden or Assange is the NSA? You're a paranoid nutcase. Probably on some domestic terrorist watchlist.
They are only protecting him to make USA look bad, its all PR.
But hey, if USA has access to ALL communications, and all inhouse secret emails and source codes of ALL corporations to all commericial products in dev/beta/selling, then they have the upper hand.
ie. If the NSA has all the source code of a competitor to USA corp, then they give it to the CEO of a F100 corp.
Gee, why are usa corps so successful, its because they get inside info from the NSA.
Even if that info is just pricing and time to market.
ie, if helping Apple gains 50 billion in sales, and hurts Samsung, the NSA will, since it directly benefits pension funds, and the whole USA.
But the number one reason the USA is top dog, is the federal reserve and their unlimited money printing illegal rights, that every one can say, FU, we arent paying our debts back coz its funny money.
This should have never have been leaked. There is nothing illegal about this operation. In fact I don't understand how anyone but foreign governments gain from this leak. The people at the G8 are all government officials being spied on and those are the people who are supposed to be spied on so why was it leaked? EXPLAIN.
I agree with you. If you truly feel you're doing something which is in the best interest of your country and or the world then you should be prepared to go to prison.
Seems reasonable. Tomorrow morning, when you wake up and say goodbye to your kids before going to work, please let them know that "papa may not be coming home because we does something good for your country and the world, and as such he may be locked in jail forever right this afternoon" or else you can tell them "see you home later for dinner because I have a shitty, non-important job that doesn't really add anything to society so you don't need to fear for my security".
Nice country you live in btw.
I'm just saying if I were somehow in that position, if I really believed in something that much that I would whistleblow in the first place then I would also be willing to go to prison. In fact I would have turned myself in rather than be captured by Russia and China.
What if Snowden is forced to help for the intelligence agencies of those foreign countries? How exactly does he morally justify it? They are exploiting his ego.
You seem to be trying to lay down the soundbites with a trowel there buddy.
snitch out all his people and his entire country
the only people he has "snitched out" are those in power who are working against the people and the values of the entire country.
How is he doing that by going to Russia? Let's face it. He should not have leaked the G8 spying operation. That alone was crossing the line because that helped other governments but did not protect anyone in specific. Now he's in Russia for what, what do you think Russia or whichever government he goes to for protection wants from him?
The guy had a Top Secret clearance. You can attack me all you want if you disagree with me but I'm not saying what I'm saying in support of any government. These are my personal opinions on the matter. I do not believe Snowden to be a hero, because a hero isn't afraid to go to prison for what is right. His flight pattern looks like he's helping other governments.
Why did he choose Russia & China? He could have gone to Iceland. He chose a country like Russia which is fighting proxy wars against the US for what? So he can help them? Even if you're not from the US, you could be a Russian citizen but how exactly is it a good thing as a Russian citizen if Snowden is sharing details about how the US spies on it's citizens? Do you not think Russia would do the same?
It is fascinating that of all your posts in the past month they are almost all ones trying to paint Snowden as the enemy, or being an apologist for PRISM even if its in the sense of "it would be ok if they had just told us about it".
And quite the presence in this thread very quickly after its posting.
You are either a front account, or someone buying into the spin 100%. Snowden is a subcontracted tech consultant, not some sort of inner circle NSA operative gone amok. There is jack shit in his head, unless he has some sort of eidetic memory.
Yes now you have a conspiracy theory that anyone who doesn't support Snowden leaking details about the G8 Internet cafe spy operation or anyone who does not view Snowden as a hero for going to another government is somehow in support of Prism? I never claimed to support Prism, the NSA or the US government. But I don't understand why you think it's okay to help other governments.
Exactly what country do you expect him to go to? There are only about 5-6 countries in the world that aren't the total lapdogs of the U.S. government (or at least in bed with them). That doesn't exactly leave him a lot of options if he wants to remain free and not have all his (very important) information just buried again.
Snowden is a pure snitch. He ratted out the entire US military and an entire G8 operation which had nothing to do with spying on Americans.
Now we all know the US spied on Internet cafes at the G8. But that was completely legal and the NSA is supposed to do stuff like that so what reason was that information leaked and who did it benefit?
I'm going to just assume you're a spin doctor, as otherwise i'd have to be rude and assume you are an idiot.
a) Snowden did not board the plane to cuba b) anyone who considers cuba since the soviet union fell apart a threat to america is a moron. c) nothing snowden could have known about troop positions or other such actions or involvement would have been left the same from shortly after the second he leaked his name. This is assuming he even had such knowledge, given his position his access would have been fairly general and non-specific as far as military matters are concerned.
Did you watch Snowden's interview? He said he had access to information detailing missions and the identities as well. Then he leaked a Top Secret G8 spy operation. If he didn't have access then how did we learn about that?
Never been in a prison, have you? I worked in one when I was in grad school. It's not as "romantic" as you think. Or in ways you might enjoy.
Snowden already is in a prisoners position. He's now the property of whatever foreign intelligence agency is protecting him and they don't have to respect his human rights. They are nice to him because he's giving them what they want. Do you really believe he's being protected out of government kindness?
The man is a traitor and an attention whore trying to inflict maximum damage on his country. If he were honestly a simple consciousness objector as claimed he would have never fled to begin with.
History has a proud tradition of actual consciousness objectors willingly going to prison when they feel they need to make a point and stand up for something. More than a few such objectors later became judged by history as heroes (MLK etc).
I agree with you. If you truly feel you're doing something which is in the best interest of your country and or the world then you should be prepared to go to prison. Snowden would rather basically snitch out all his people and his entire country than go to prison. He might have got 10 years, now he's never going to be able to return to the US and will be made to fight against the US troops by foreign intelligence. He was a former soldier himself so that makes his actions particularly bad.
I think he's unwitting, because he believes what he's doing is morally right. He's brainwashed into believing he's on the right side while he helps other governments gain the ability to do what the US government does because he's giving them the knowledge to do it. The fact that he's now their possession means he can't stop them from getting every bit of knowledge he has.
Do you think they'll protect him for free? Are you this naive? Do you think they won't interrogate him and offer him protection in exchange for his knowledge and support?
Whatever classified documents he had, they now have. It means they can now build what the US built in their countries to crack down on their activists. If he destroyed the documents (that would be the responsible thing to do) then they'll get as much out of him as he can remember which still could be a lot of information. They want him for his brain and they want his secrets, they aren't protecting him out of some human rights or civil rights bs.
He's not in Iceland, he's on his way to Cuba. Think carefully about where he is going and tell me do you honestly believe they will respect his human rights or anyones? They will treat him like a hero as long as he's giving them information which can help them adjust or improve their own operations. They'll also be tipped off about US operations which would put US operations and of course US assets / troops at risk.
Was he lying about knowing the missions and identities of assets and operations? If he was not lying about this then all of those lives and operations could be put at risk. Snowden will be used as a weapon not just against the NSA and US government but against US troops and even civilians such as rebels fighting in civil wars funded by the US who don't even know how the Snowden case will affect their effort.
A hero protects lives, I fail to see how Snowden can be a hero if he's in custody of the SVR or whatever foreign intelligence has him. What could he be telling them as we speak? He may not have told them everything yet but it's only a matter of time before he tells them everything he knows because he's not going to be given an option not to. So let's hope he doesn't know half the shit he claimed to know in that interview.
And this means any secrets he may know about anything will be handed over to them. At this point he is headed to Cuba where he can give whatever Top Secret information he can to the Cubans. How can anyone see him as a hero if he's helping a government recognized as a dictatorship to build up it's spy machine capabilities, to defeat US spy machine capabilities, or both?
What impact will his knowledge have on Syrian rebel forces? What impact will his knowledge have on troops? Does he know troop positions? Whatever he knows the US government must now assume they know. I just hope not too many innocent civilians get hurt from Snowdens decisions.
You are deluded if you think Russia vs United States, Russia is the 'good guys'. In fact, I don't consider the US to be 'good guys', but compared to Russia they appear to be. Putin orders hits on reports who write unfavourable articles on him, more than once, and its fairly widely accepted in Russia. End of story.
The US and all its NSA bullshit isn't quite comparable to the threat of death for speaking out, if so all of the reporters who've covered Snowden would be fearing for their lives.
Snowden is now bringing his knowledge and expertise to Russia to help Putin. How else do we explain why he is in Russia?
Slashdot Mirror
How do you know that?
Because I'm me and I know me. I would choose to protect innocent lives as much as possible and that would mean turning myself in. Even if I hated the US government policies and programs, it does not mean I would hate the troops or whatever CIA assets are spread around the world exploited by the forces of the US government.
And here I thought that fear of the terrorist bogeyman was bad enough...
Can you blame me for not trusting Snowden? The real question is why you trust him so much. If the NSA gave him as much info as they claim they did then they fucked up but at the same time he made a very poor decision which could cost innocent people their lives depending on what he has.
Well, one thing we do know is that he didn't just hand it over indiscriminately to anyone in the past. That strongly suggests that he's not out to just hurt the U.S.
Now you can cook up any number of paranoid scenarios if you like (as you could with anyone who has access to this data). But it presumes a change of attitude on his part that he has heretofore not shown.
He doesn't have a choice anymore. And no it's not paranoid at all to think all the spy agencies in the world would like to talk to him.
Just like it's not paranoid to think the CIA wanted to talk to Assange in Sweden. It's what they do. But the point here is Snowden already is talking to them, he's already in Moscow. He's no longer in a position not to negotiate with them. He no longer has the option not to give them whatever they want. We don't even know where he is, he could be getting interrogated right now and we can't know.
A change in attitude should be expected when you're a prisoner of an intelligence agency is all I'm saying.
I think the countries being spied upon would argue your point.
Also, the leak on the G8 spying was a side affect. What he was actually leaking was their methods, used in the US and the UK to do illegal spying, and in those documents they use the G8 as an example. Also, the revelation that they are spying on the G8 is one of the most important pieces of information released... their excuse this entire time has been that they are defending against terrorism. But clearly the G8 operation was an attempt to gain economic advantage.
So he leaked sources and methods. That is exactly what shouldn't have been leaked.
What exactly does he have on those four laptops? So far he has pretty much only released a few PowerPoint slides, a few documents. That doesn't take much space. What does he have that he hasn't released? What does he intend to do with it? A little bargaining maybe? What will his source of income be, and from whom?
So your assertion is that because he COULD release this information to foreign intelligence agencies, that that makes him just as guilty as everyone who HAS?!? Well, in that case, you had better arrest everyone else who has access to classified information (all 4.9 million of them), since they could presumably become spies any day now too.
You claim that the surveillance being conducted by the NSA was illegal - what is your source for that?
The 4th amendment to the United States Constitution.
If he's in Russia right now and the news reports are true that he did not board the plane to Cuba then chances are he is being interrogated and everything he has is being given. He isn't in any position to be in any kind of control, they have control of him physically and can interrogate him for as long as it takes.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/06/17/edward_snowden_g8_latest_nsa_leak_comes_as_world_leaders_gather_in_northern.html
This is what Snowden gave to the media. We don't know how many other details like this he has to hand over. The fact that he's now in Russia could mean that he's handing over gigs detailed of information he had stored somewhere. WE JUST DO NOT KNOW.
So stop acting like you know.
ok nsa fucker agent #5454656575765
cite your fake ass accusations.
go back to your low paid nsa job
This is all you got? Everyone who disagrees with you on Snowden or Assange is the NSA? You're a paranoid nutcase. Probably on some domestic terrorist watchlist.
They already knew what he knew.
They are only protecting him to make USA look bad, its all PR.
But hey, if USA has access to ALL communications, and all inhouse secret emails and source codes of ALL corporations to all commericial products in dev/beta/selling, then they have the upper hand.
ie. If the NSA has all the source code of a competitor to USA corp, then they give it to the CEO of a F100 corp.
Gee, why are usa corps so successful, its because they get inside info from the NSA.
Even if that info is just pricing and time to market.
ie, if helping Apple gains 50 billion in sales, and hurts Samsung, the NSA will, since it directly benefits pension funds, and the whole USA.
But the number one reason the USA is top dog, is the federal reserve and their unlimited money printing illegal rights, that every one can say, FU, we arent paying our debts back coz its funny money.
How do you know what they knew? Did they know details like from this leak http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/06/17/edward_snowden_g8_latest_nsa_leak_comes_as_world_leaders_gather_in_northern.html
I doubt they knew about that. But even if they did, the more details they are given the more they'll be able to duplicate prism.
Details of *domestic* spying will put no US asset at risk. Except maybe a few server farms and ISP links?
What about details of the G8 spying: http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/06/17/edward_snowden_g8_latest_nsa_leak_comes_as_world_leaders_gather_in_northern.html
This should have never have been leaked. There is nothing illegal about this operation. In fact I don't understand how anyone but foreign governments gain from this leak. The people at the G8 are all government officials being spied on and those are the people who are supposed to be spied on so why was it leaked? EXPLAIN.
I agree with you. If you truly feel you're doing something which is in the best interest of your country and or the world then you should be prepared to go to prison.
Seems reasonable. Tomorrow morning, when you wake up and say goodbye to your kids before going to work, please let them know that "papa may not be coming home because we does something good for your country and the world, and as such he may be locked in jail forever right this afternoon" or else you can tell them "see you home later for dinner because I have a shitty, non-important job that doesn't really add anything to society so you don't need to fear for my security".
Nice country you live in btw.
I'm just saying if I were somehow in that position, if I really believed in something that much that I would whistleblow in the first place then I would also be willing to go to prison. In fact I would have turned myself in rather than be captured by Russia and China.
What if Snowden is forced to help for the intelligence agencies of those foreign countries? How exactly does he morally justify it? They are exploiting his ego.
You seem to be trying to lay down the soundbites with a trowel there buddy.
snitch out all his people and his entire country
the only people he has "snitched out" are those in power who are working against the people and the values of the entire country.
How is he doing that by going to Russia? Let's face it. He should not have leaked the G8 spying operation. That alone was crossing the line because that helped other governments but did not protect anyone in specific. Now he's in Russia for what, what do you think Russia or whichever government he goes to for protection wants from him?
The guy had a Top Secret clearance. You can attack me all you want if you disagree with me but I'm not saying what I'm saying in support of any government. These are my personal opinions on the matter. I do not believe Snowden to be a hero, because a hero isn't afraid to go to prison for what is right. His flight pattern looks like he's helping other governments.
Why did he choose Russia & China? He could have gone to Iceland. He chose a country like Russia which is fighting proxy wars against the US for what? So he can help them? Even if you're not from the US, you could be a Russian citizen but how exactly is it a good thing as a Russian citizen if Snowden is sharing details about how the US spies on it's citizens? Do you not think Russia would do the same?
It is fascinating that of all your posts in the past month they are almost all ones trying to paint Snowden as the enemy, or being an apologist for PRISM even if its in the sense of "it would be ok if they had just told us about it".
And quite the presence in this thread very quickly after its posting.
You are either a front account, or someone buying into the spin 100%. Snowden is a subcontracted tech consultant, not some sort of inner circle NSA operative gone amok. There is jack shit in his head, unless he has some sort of eidetic memory.
Yes now you have a conspiracy theory that anyone who doesn't support Snowden leaking details about the G8 Internet cafe spy operation or anyone who does not view Snowden as a hero for going to another government is somehow in support of Prism? I never claimed to support Prism, the NSA or the US government. But I don't understand why you think it's okay to help other governments.
What do we gain if Snowden goes and helps Russia?
Exactly what country do you expect him to go to? There are only about 5-6 countries in the world that aren't the total lapdogs of the U.S. government (or at least in bed with them). That doesn't exactly leave him a lot of options if he wants to remain free and not have all his (very important) information just buried again.
Snowden is a pure snitch. He ratted out the entire US military and an entire G8 operation which had nothing to do with spying on Americans.
Now we all know the US spied on Internet cafes at the G8. But that was completely legal and the NSA is supposed to do stuff like that so what reason was that information leaked and who did it benefit?
Why was there a leak of the G8 spying? That wasn't an illegal operation. Tell me why Snowden leaked that.
I'm going to just assume you're a spin doctor, as otherwise i'd have to be rude and assume you are an idiot.
a) Snowden did not board the plane to cuba
b) anyone who considers cuba since the soviet union fell apart a threat to america is a moron.
c) nothing snowden could have known about troop positions or other such actions or involvement would have been left the same from shortly after the second he leaked his name. This is assuming he even had such knowledge, given his position his access would have been fairly general and non-specific as far as military matters are concerned.
Did you watch Snowden's interview? He said he had access to information detailing missions and the identities as well.
Then he leaked a Top Secret G8 spy operation. If he didn't have access then how did we learn about that?
And the Russians have the ability to get every secret out of him and because of what he said in the interview they have every reason to want to.
According to the Guardian, Snowdon is not on the plane to Havana.
Snowden has ties with the Guardian.
Never been in a prison, have you? I worked in one when I was in grad school. It's not as "romantic" as you think. Or in ways you might enjoy.
Snowden already is in a prisoners position. He's now the property of whatever foreign intelligence agency is protecting him and they don't have to respect his human rights. They are nice to him because he's giving them what they want. Do you really believe he's being protected out of government kindness?
The man is a traitor and an attention whore trying to inflict maximum damage on his country. If he were honestly a simple consciousness objector as claimed he would have never fled to begin with.
History has a proud tradition of actual consciousness objectors willingly going to prison when they feel they need to make a point and stand up for something. More than a few such objectors later became judged by history as heroes (MLK etc).
I agree with you. If you truly feel you're doing something which is in the best interest of your country and or the world then you should be prepared to go to prison. Snowden would rather basically snitch out all his people and his entire country than go to prison. He might have got 10 years, now he's never going to be able to return to the US and will be made to fight against the US troops by foreign intelligence. He was a former soldier himself so that makes his actions particularly bad.
I think he's unwitting, because he believes what he's doing is morally right. He's brainwashed into believing he's on the right side while he helps other governments gain the ability to do what the US government does because he's giving them the knowledge to do it. The fact that he's now their possession means he can't stop them from getting every bit of knowledge he has.
You seem to presume a lot, and based on what? What evidence do you have that he will give everything to the Cubans?
Just dumping it all out is stupid. Even an intelligent sociopath won't do that but instead use the information as bargaining chips.
I could also make similar remarks as yours and ask "who is paying you to make posts like these?".
You act as if he's the one in control of his fate.
Do you think they'll protect him for free? Are you this naive? Do you think they won't interrogate him and offer him protection in exchange for his knowledge and support?
Whatever classified documents he had, they now have. It means they can now build what the US built in their countries to crack down on their activists. If he destroyed the documents (that would be the responsible thing to do) then they'll get as much out of him as he can remember which still could be a lot of information. They want him for his brain and they want his secrets, they aren't protecting him out of some human rights or civil rights bs.
He's not in Iceland, he's on his way to Cuba. Think carefully about where he is going and tell me do you honestly believe they will respect his human rights or anyones? They will treat him like a hero as long as he's giving them information which can help them adjust or improve their own operations. They'll also be tipped off about US operations which would put US operations and of course US assets / troops at risk.
Was he lying about knowing the missions and identities of assets and operations? If he was not lying about this then all of those lives and operations could be put at risk. Snowden will be used as a weapon not just against the NSA and US government but against US troops and even civilians such as rebels fighting in civil wars funded by the US who don't even know how the Snowden case will affect their effort.
A hero protects lives, I fail to see how Snowden can be a hero if he's in custody of the SVR or whatever foreign intelligence has him. What could he be telling them as we speak? He may not have told them everything yet but it's only a matter of time before he tells them everything he knows because he's not going to be given an option not to. So let's hope he doesn't know half the shit he claimed to know in that interview.
And this means any secrets he may know about anything will be handed over to them. At this point he is headed to Cuba where he can give whatever Top Secret information he can to the Cubans. How can anyone see him as a hero if he's helping a government recognized as a dictatorship to build up it's spy machine capabilities, to defeat US spy machine capabilities, or both?
What impact will his knowledge have on Syrian rebel forces? What impact will his knowledge have on troops? Does he know troop positions? Whatever he knows the US government must now assume they know. I just hope not too many innocent civilians get hurt from Snowdens decisions.
You are deluded if you think Russia vs United States, Russia is the 'good guys'. In fact, I don't consider the US to be 'good guys', but compared to Russia they appear to be. Putin orders hits on reports who write unfavourable articles on him, more than once, and its fairly widely accepted in Russia. End of story.
The US and all its NSA bullshit isn't quite comparable to the threat of death for speaking out, if so all of the reporters who've covered Snowden would be fearing for their lives.
Snowden is now bringing his knowledge and expertise to Russia to help Putin. How else do we explain why he is in Russia?
He worked for the NSA. We know he's a spy :-P
Does that make it treason if he
How do we know he isn't a spy now that he went to Moscow?
Biden believes that collecting metadata is extremely disturbing and provides huge opportunities for abuse:
Biden in 2006 schools Obama in 2013 over NSA spying program
All these guys work for the government. It's more spin.