Edward Snowden Leaves Hong Kong

hazeii writes "Ed Snowden, the U.S. whistleblower responsible for exposing the degree to which the U.S. watches its own citizens (as well as the rest of the world) is reported as having left Hong Kong for Moscow. According to the South China Morning Post, he is on a commercial flight to Russia but intriguingly it seems this is not his final destination. It's not clear whether this move is in response to the U.S. request to extradite him."

Comments

Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[Anonymous Coward]

What has the world come to?

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[Trepidity]

Eh, it's happened now and then...

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[Anonymous Coward]

Iffin i had the money and wherewithal i'd be pitching a remake of "moscow on the hudson"

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[NormAtHome]

While modded as funny this is tragic that the US government is spying wholesale on it's own citizens, breaking the spirit of the Constitution to the extent that employees of the government feel the need to "blow the whistle" and expose those activities. Then those whistle blowers have to seek asylum in country's that have been known to engage in wholesale repression of anti-government dissent by the citizens of those country's.

There is just something so wrong about all of this and on so many levels.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[Anonymous Coward]

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/pardon-edward-snowden/Dp03vGYD

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's all perfectly in order if you believe that democracies have a life cycle, can only last so long then decay back into a state of tyranny. This is obviously the stage that the United States is in, the decay back into tyranny. As they were among the first of the modern democracies, it's likely that the decay will start with them and progress to the other democracies over time leading, eventually back into a completely tyrannical world government where there will be a select ruling class, the remainder of the population will be the slaves and only the ruling class will be immune from total surveillance and control.

for reference see Bilderberg Meetings and Agenda 21. Not quite sure if they are working together on this or at cross purposes but in any case it will be bad situation for them as figure they were in the middle class soon to be formally demoted to the slave class along with them as were already in the poorer classes.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[TheGratefulNet]

and yet, we'll continue to lie to our kids at school when we teach them about our 'constitution' and how we have the high moral ground on all the issues and that the US is the most free country in the world.

I wonder, at what age, do the kids see thru the bullshit and realize they are being lied to 180degrees ?

when I was growing up (70's), 'the red commies' were the ones that did the shit WE are now doing. we laughed at them for being so non-free.

I'm not doing a lot of laughing these days, however. ;(

I'M ASHAMED OF MY COUNTRY.

our government has stopped representing the will of the american people. you can blame us for not rising up and overthrowing them, but given that they are the most powerful government in the history of the world, its not an easy task to reign in the corruption and restore normal law and order again.

pity us for having the american dream ruined before our very eyes. realize that we were once a great nation, but sadly, I cannot say we are a great nation anymore. no one in the US government will say they are sorry, so I'll say it for them. not that it matters, as I am a total nobody, but I am sorry that we have lost our way and turned to the dark side. I am very very sorry and I want the world to know that the majority of *thinking* americans do not approve of this bullshit spying and data-grab.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[elashish14]

This makes those 'In Soviet Russia' jokes somewhat more believable...

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[Anonymous Coward]

He does not need to be pardoned. When one spots errors, then points them out so they can be rectified, one should be applauded. He exposed gross constitutional (usa) violations as well as international violations of peoples privacy rights.
Curious how the pro-fear/warmongering pundits splashed him down in all the papers...
First they said hes a Kommie spy, then the say hes a manic-depressive, then they say hes a Russki, then obviously according to the trend, hes going to Cuba and next they will say hes linked to alkayda, the kkk, or Steve Jobs!

For real though, he might be next spotted on the moon (that time of the month again); shucks, the amount of blood-diamonds the israelis have dealt in has funded their space-program (diamonds on the moon!), it would seem only natural that they would be so dEEply involved in the illicit-data-mining business. dirty.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[smash]

Russia isn't the same old USSR any more.

Take what you hear through western media with a pinch of salt - I highly recommend reading/viewing RT as well as western media to get both perspectives. The different spin each side give the same story is interesting and you can bet the truth is maybe there somewhere in the middle.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[wmac1]

Laws did not come from God! They might be unfair or even incorrect.

Refer to N.K. laws for more information (and the laws which allowed NSF and GCHQ to spy on people's everything).

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[girlintraining]

While modded as funny this is tragic that the US government is spying wholesale on it's own citizens, breaking the spirit of the Constitution to the extent that employees of the government feel the need to "blow the whistle" and expose those activities. Then those whistle blowers have to seek asylum in country's that have been known to engage in wholesale repression of anti-government dissent by the citizens of those country's.

I suppose now's a bad time to point out that Hong Kong is technically 'China' now. So he's fled from this country to two countries known for 'repression'. Which I gotta wonder about... has the United States become worse than everyone they claim they're better than? Iran, Afghanistan, Russia, China, North Korea... the list goes on... and none of them are building dozens of massive data centers for the sole purpose of spying wholesale on its own citizens.

Where's the UN condemnation and resolutions about 'human rights' when you need them? Where's the international inspectors for our "free" elections? We've had two major elections now with clear and well-publicized failures and many allegations of voting irregularities. Oh right... forgot. We're "permanent" members of the human rights council. We could be raping our citizens publicly before chopping them up piece by piece on national TV and we'd still have a seat. -_-

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[tqk]

There is just something so wrong about all of this and on so many levels.

Yes. The US has a whistleblower law that's ostensibly to protect them, yet this administration has attacked more whistleblowers than any other. Thomas Drake was vindicated but after that Snowden wasn't comfortable relying on a whistleblower law that's being ignored. Now they're going after Snowden charging him with espionage when Snowden showed the NSA has been spying on Chinese civilians' communications.

First Orwell's "1984", now Kafka's "The Trial". What's next, Carrol's "Through The Looking Glass (Alice in Wonderland)"? Snowden's protectors so far are PRC, Russia, and Cuba. I feel a need to drag in "Rip van Winkle" here for some reason.

Is there some kind of undiagnosed "Drop Dead Simplemindedness Disease" running rampant through the USA official circles these days? John Dean's "Cancer on the presidency" comes to mind.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[Anonymous Coward]

Whether you agree with what he did or not the fact is that he broke the law as it exists today. Given what he did I think he does get classified as traitor. That being said one can make an argument that he did what was right as he exposed just how far the USA has gone in watching what everyone is doing. That could lead to him being exonerated or pardoned in the long run but for now the current US laws say that he broke the law.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[argStyopa]

It's almost like the current administration is EXACTLY LIKE (or worse than) every other establishment-fixated US administration since WW2.

Of course, if the guy's wearing "your colors", I understand that you have to blindly support him and rationalize away everything he does, just like the Right did from 2000-2008.

And we mock the Byzantines for the Nika Riots.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[1s44c]

Also see Russian and US stances on arming muslim extremists in Syria.

Russia seems far more reasonable than the US does right now.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[pongo000]

and yet, we'll continue to lie to our kids at school when we teach them about our 'constitution' and how we have the high moral ground on all the issues and that the US is the most free country in the world.

We'll continue the "lie" in the hopes that our children will take up the mantle and fight for freedom from domestic spying and all the other Constitutional abuses that we have permitted to creep into our lives. Since us adults have utterly failed at the job.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[Jeremy Erwin]

Both perspectives? How naive. There are very often more than two perspectives, and you can't assume that a dialectic between the Western media and RT will get you any closer to the most interesting one.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[SteveFoerster]

Not exactly. The Russians are arming a mass murdering dicatator, the Americans are arming the allies of al-Qaeda. The responsible thing would be to do neither.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[tqk]

This makes those 'In Soviet Russia' jokes somewhat more believable...

In Corporatocratic USA, NSA Whistleblows you!

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[lxs]

when I was growing up (70's), 'the red commies' were the ones that did the shit WE are now doing.

Erm... You might want to look into COINTELPRO. The US was doing this back then as well, just not as efficient.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[Anonymous Coward]

employees of the government feel the need to

FYI Snowden is not an NSA employee nor even a government employee. He's a contractor: an employee of a contract agency that carries employment agreements with the US Government. You may dismiss my point as semantics, but I will defend the importance of the observation... a contractor is not an employee of the company in which they work and are not necessarily bound by the same law that true employees are bound.

Also... FWIW, semantics always get a bad wrap, but semantics are of vital importance to accurate communication. If not for semantics, no one would have any idea what anyone else was talking about... we'd effectively all be jibbering idiots in social isolation. Pay attention to semantics, that overlooked and often unjustly and unwisely dismissed branch of linguistics and logic concerned with meaning. No, I am not a philologist, linguist, logician nor semanticist... just a mindful individual that insists that language and words have meaning and that users of language be as accurate as possible.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[1s44c]

Hong Kong isn't engaged in 'wholesale repression of anti-government dissent', it's very free and people openly protest again the Chinese government.
Russian and Cuba, I really don't know.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[1s44c]

Every major atrocity in history was carried out by people just doing their jobs. Doing what you are told isn't doing what's right.

Laws have far more to do with maintaining the status quo than doing what is morally right. Laws should be ignored, or better changed, where they contradict morality.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[MobSwatter]

Mr. Snowden did not expose it, people already knew what was going on. What he provided was the physical evidence of it, which is a means to combat the blank check issued for vaporware in the name of penis envy under the veil of security clearances policy, and they really don't like that sh!t. In hind sight, there appears to be a corporate hack on the rule of law, FED/OPEC/Patriot Act was the tip of the iceberg, where we are now is at the end of the ramblings of failed checks and balances. Good morning America, have a spoon of "you've been phucked" in your coffee next to that bowl of "cuz your paying for this", being they have by way of example condoned attacking the Bill of Rights, maybe we the people should petition to abolish taxes seeking relief for damages based upon involuntary servitude being that exposure of and the evidence of a clearly unconstitutional and illegal program was concealed from we the people (that already knew about it) under security clearance. As they say, if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear, so why is exposure of physical evidence of the program such a problem when the people (and undoubteldy the terrorists) already knew about it? Is it that it incriminates the people that violated the 4th and 13th amendments? What should be illegal is creating a framework of law that makes exposure of unlawful behavior illegal.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[Anonymous Coward]

Iran, Afghanistan, Russia, China, North Korea... the list goes on... and none of them are building dozens of massive data centers for the sole purpose of spying wholesale on its own citizens.

Lolwut?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SORM (SORM2 = Prism++ but at the ISP's expense)
http://surveillance.rsf.org/en/china/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/19/china-internet-monitoring-tibet
http://surveillance.rsf.org/en/iran/

NK doesnt' really have net access much.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_in_North_Korea

Afghanistan is covered by the NSA.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[Anonymous Coward]

The Russians are aiming for regional stability and their own national security.

So while neither is right, Russia is just treating the Syria situation how the US treated Bahrain, Yemen and what they would do with Saudi Arabia in similar situations.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[Hognoxious]

I suppose now's a bad time to point out that Hong Kong is technically 'China' now. So he's fled from this country to two countries known for 'repression'. Which I gotta wonder about... has the United States become worse than everyone they claim they're better than?

Yeah, it must be that. Obviously it reduces to a monodimensional scale and they (plus Cuba) rank towards the better end of it than the USA.

I mean, I was thinking that it might be that they're enemies, or at least rivals, of the country he grassed on. Silly me!

Iran, Afghanistan, Russia, China, North Korea... the list goes on... and none of them are building dozens of massive data centers for the sole purpose of spying wholesale on its own citizens.

I'm sure it's down to their love of individual freedom, and that even if they had the technological and economic resources to do so they'd refrain cross you off their Christmas card list for even suggesting it.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[BitZtream]

First Orwell's "1984", now Kafka's "The Trial". What's next, Carrol's "Through The Looking Glass (Alice in Wonderland)"?

If you think we're in a 1984 state, you utterly failed to understand the point of the book. The fact that we're having this discussion is enough for you to know we're not in a 1984 state. Please stop trying to be trendy and anti-establishment by referring to books you either didn't read, or clearly don't understand.

Perhaps you've already taken one too many acid trips through the looking glass?

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[Anonymous Coward]

"What has the world come to?"

Soap Opera? At this point, it is beyond belief.

Obama making mockery of himself on a global scale.

I must admit, funnier then my local news.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[CodeBuster]

and yet, we'll continue to lie to our kids at school

The American school system, not to mention our media saturated culture, is chock full of lies from day one. That's part of the education, learning to separate the nuggets of truth from the thicket of lies by thinking for oneself.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[clarkkent09]

All countries do the same things when it comes to foreign relations, especially espionage and things like that. It's a game that people in the know play behind the scenes and not even elected leaders are always privy to what's going on. It is ridiculous to say you are ashamed of the USA because it is one of the players (which it has to be).

As someone who was born in a communist country but thankfully moved early to the USA, saying that we are doing the same stuff that Communists were doing in the 70s is an insult to people who lived under those regimes of the same proportion as seriously equating a judge who gives you too high a fine for a traffic violation to Nazis slaughtering millions.

In the 70s, over 3/4 of the people in the world lived under dictatorships and today, only 40 years later, 90% of the people live in democracies. Who do you think had the greatest role to play in bringing about that enormous change for the better? Russians, or the Chinese, or the Europeans, where in the 70s one half of the countries were Communist dictatorships and even in the West at least three countries (Spain, Portugal and Greece) were Fascist dictatorships? How did it happen? Just naturally, for the first time in the history of the world, countries all over the world decided to become democracies?

It is sad that you lack a sense of proportion to realize that while the USA is not perfect, it is far from being a country you should be ashamed of, in fact it is quite obviously the greatest major country in the the world, possibly in the history of the world.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[iluvcapra]

The US has a whistleblower law that's ostensibly to protect them, yet this administration has attacked more whistleblowers than any other.

A "whistleblower" is someone who exposes illegal behavior or misconduct, and the "whistleblower law" is meant to protect him from reprisal. The problem here is that everything Snowden has exposed would appear to have the sanction of US law.

Obviously it's wrong, by most people's commonsense idea of what their rights are, and his act is a form of protest. To pardon him or exculpate him would, under normal rules, be a mistake, because going to jail for breaking an immoral law is an intrinsic aspect of civil disobedience -- Thoreau and MLK went to jail, their incarceration simply became a demonstration of the manifest immorality of the law.

A problem going forward is that the government doesn't seem satisfied to merely jail someone anymore, it has to hold them for months or years without indictment, as in the case of Bradley Manning. I can't tell yet if holding someone like Manning incognito, without charge for months or years, actually helps or hurts the protestor's case.

(I'd say on balance it seems to help, so far; if they'd simply arrested him, indicted him and convicted him in the old-fashioned way, nobody would be talking about him anymore.)

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[tqk]

First Orwell's "1984", now Kafka's "The Trial". What's next, Carrol's "Through The Looking Glass (Alice in Wonderland)"?

If you think we're in a 1984 state ...

Did I say that? No. This discussion is centered on the (apparent) persecution of a whistleblower reporting the NSA's Hoovering up of private communications the world over on specious anti-terrorist grounds, apparently contrary to the constraints laid out in the USA's Constitution. That situation is why I mentioned Orwell as that situation strongly suggests we're headed in that direction, barring heroic actions (like Snowden's and Thomas Drake's) to the contrary.

I know, it's tough handling difficult concepts when you're hungover. It should wear off in a few hours, though.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[Maudib]

I don't quite see why his fleeing from the U.S. is a sign that the the U.S. is necessarily repressive.

I'm happy that he released those documents, but there is no question that he did break the law. He is being charged with espionage, which is a legitimate charge given his actions. He should be arrested. He should go to trial, and if the American people believe strongly that what he did was right, we should protest and petition for his pardon.

Thats how a Democracy should function. The fact that he wants to evade capture and avoid the consequences of his actions is no commentary on America.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[tqk]

The US has a whistleblower law that's ostensibly to protect them, yet this administration has attacked more whistleblowers than any other.

A "whistleblower" is someone who exposes illegal behavior or misconduct, and the "whistleblower law" is meant to protect him from reprisal. The problem here is that everything Snowden has exposed would appear to have the sanction of US law.

The problem here is Congress has written into law things it had no right to do as defined by the US' Constitution (Fourth Amendment): ... which guards against unreasonable searches and seizures, along with requiring any warrant to be judicially sanctioned and supported by probable cause (emphasis mine). What probable cause allows the courts to believe *everyone in the world* is a valid suspect in the ongoing War On Terrorism? That's just utter rampant paranoia. Who put nutcases like that in charge?!?

Those laws Congress offers to justify this cannot provide sanction as they're unconstitutional. With the authorities using these laws to justify their actions, they've broken their oath to defend the Constitution. "Governing is hard" (to paraphrase Barbie).

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[1s44c]

Not exactly. The Russians are arming a mass murdering dicatator, the Americans are arming the allies of al-Qaeda. The responsible thing would be to do neither.

If some foreign funded and equipped far right or far left group in the US took on the police and military would the US government roll over without a fight? Of course not.

The Syrian government is fighting to stop the terrorists taking over. The US is arming and assisting the terrorists as well as asking others to do the same. Surely that makes the US a state sponsor of terror?

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[osu-neko]

The different spin each side give the same story is interesting and you can bet the truth is maybe there somewhere in the middle.

What a remarkably foolish thing to believe. Listening to two different liars does not get you closer to the truth. The odds that the truth is somewhere on a line between their lies are extremely remote. Both points and all points in-between are probably far away from anything resembling truth. If someone tells you a man is a plucked chicken, and other says a man is a garden slug, constructing a chimera from them to try to create a real man doesn't get you something any more man-like.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[osu-neko]

Not exactly. The Russians are arming a mass murdering dicatator, the Americans are arming the allies of al-Qaeda. The responsible thing would be to do neither.

Neither action is responsible, but one is less foolish, at least from the perspective of national self-interest. The one virtue most (yes, not all, but most) mass murdering dictators have is that they tend to leave people on the other side of the planet alone.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[iluvcapra]

Gee, thanks for the link to the fucking Fourth Amendment of the US Constitution. I'm sure that no one in Congress has ever heard of that :/

Who put nutcases like that in charge?!?

We did, and continue to do so; we have a lot of reasons:

• Our governing institutions have profound status quo bias, and the present opposition party is happy to do nothing one way or the other and to let policy drift as long as they are out of power.
• Activists in the US have succeded in portraying the government, as opposed to an elected political institution, into an adversary or "other" of the common people. This has fed into the broad popular belief that a vote "doesn't matter," and that only anti-democratic modalities effect real change -- bribery and influence, the courts, protests, fancy ideological applications of the Constitution to stymie democratic governance all fall under this.
• Wether a politician is of the left or right, they cannot ignore that the defense establishment is easily the most popular and celebrated aspect of the Federal government, and any attempt to reign it in or approach its mission critically provokes popular rebuke. People love guys in black SWAT helmets more than they love their congressman.
• Civil libertarians have, for the most part, been profoundly ineffective politically. They seem to fall into the same trap many public right-wingers in the US have, and they've discovered that they'd rather have the fame and glory of being a doctrinaire outsider than accepting gradual change by consensus (Julian Assange, I'm looking at you).
• Most important point: Americans, in general, seem to be completely sold on the idea that "Americans" and "foreigners" have essentially different rights, and that the government can successfully abuse the rights of the latter while leaving unmolested the rights of the former.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[Anonymous Coward]

> We've had two major elections now with clear and well-publicized failures and many allegations of voting irregularities.

Because the side the media supported won. They won't report on it. I voted in Cleveland in a ward that didn't register a single vote for the candidate I voted for. My wife and son (voting in his first election!) both said the same. You never hear about this fraud in the major media. Only on crappy sites like:

http://www.punditpress.com/2012/11/what-luck-obama-won-dozens-of-cleveland.html

ever report on the fraud.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[shadowofwind]

we were once a great nation, but sadly, I cannot say we are a great nation anymore.

Its what's going on now more screwed up than the alien and sedition acts? Slavery? The Native American genocide? Jim Crow? Standard Oil? Domestic spying under Wilson? McCarthy? I agree its screwed up, and I hate it, but I don't think its new, its just spread around a little bit differently. Even recent developments like the exporting of almost our entire manufacturing economy are in the same profiteering spirit that built that economy to start with.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[0111 1110]

I'm happy that he released those documents, but there is no question that he did break the law.

What law?

He is being charged with espionage, which is a legitimate charge given his actions.

Huh? Wasn't the government just saying that everything Snowden said was a lie? If he is making false claims that is not espionage. At worst it might be defamation, but it isn't espionage.

He should be arrested. He should go to trial, and if the American people believe strongly that what he did was right, we should protest and petition for his pardon.

The American people may not trust their government to act in a just manner given their past history. Justice may be better served by Snowden's exile. That alone seems like more than enough punishment for his so called crime of letting the American people know the truth about what our own government is doing to us. Also I wouldn't just petition for a pre-trial pardon, but also for some sort of medal for his courage and sacrifice in the name of protecting US citizens from harm.

The fact that he wants to evade capture and avoid the consequences of his actions is no commentary on America.

He isn't avoiding the consequences of his actions. The consequences of his heroic actions appear to be exile from the country in which he was born. No good deed goes unpunished.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

We'll continue the "lie" in the hopes that our children will take up the mantle and fight for freedom from domestic spying and all the other Constitutional abuses that we have permitted to creep into our lives. Since us adults have utterly failed at the job.

This. I bet if you asked Snowden himself, he'd say that as a child he completely bought into all the lies about the US's moral superiority and that is precisely what led him to become a whistle-blowing fugitive today.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[shutdown -p now]

In this particular case, the national self-interest that Russia is pursuing in Syria is the naval base that it's renting from the Syrian government - which also happens to be the only one that Russia has in Mediterranean.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[Anonymous Coward]

Part of the prooblem is he isn't a government employee. He is a contractor. The rules changes from employeer/employed rather then government worker, who could be a whistleblower. As a federal woorker, he would have been reviled but protected. As a contractor he is on his own. Just his work contract with the whatever company had hired him. So he isn't a whistleblower. He probably had to blow something to get that job. but thats a different story. But just think if he had been a federal employee, The top story would not have been about his pole dancing girlfriend, but how she poisioned him, with pastie paste or suicide by bikini thong.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[Bob9113]

I'M ASHAMED OF MY COUNTRY.

I love my country. I love our heritage, and the spirit of the people who are giving healthy, skeptical attention to its direction.

I understand that many of We The People are, by virtue of the flaws that make us human, unaware of the problems or the threat they pose. They do not make me ashamed; it is the nature of humanity that not everyone will see the same problems at the same time. When a problem first arises, nobody knows about it, and gradually the awareness spreads. We are in the early phase of the problem becoming visible to the broad public.

What I am ashamed of -- or, more accurately, displeased with -- is those who are profiting by guiding us further into the jaws of authoritarianism. Some are ignorant, some show callous disregard. The worst genuinely believe they are entitled, or destined, to rule.

I am not ashamed of my country. I am displeased with those enemies who would harm it for their own gain.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[nbauman]

In the 70s, over 3/4 of the people in the world lived under dictatorships and today, only 40 years later, 90% of the people live in democracies. Who do you think had the greatest role to play in bringing about that enormous change for the better? Russians, or the Chinese, or the Europeans, where in the 70s one half of the countries were Communist dictatorships and even in the West at least three countries (Spain, Portugal and Greece) were Fascist dictatorships? How did it happen? Just naturally, for the first time in the history of the world, countries all over the world decided to become democracies?

Are you saying that the US covert agencies did it by overthrowing those dicatorships?

Unfortunately they overthrew a few democratically elected governments too, and gave us dictatorships in their place. Much more in the Western hemisphere, eg Haiti, Argentina, Chile. The Reagan era was difficult for a lot of people.

You have the convert's enthusiasm. Those of us who were born in the US and had to grow up suffering with its flaws see it differently. For example up until about 1968 black people were still being killed for trying to vote in the South, and they're still not doing that well. If you were black, you'd be a lot better off in the Communist bloc in the 1970s. Your children would certainly get a better education.

We've had a fight between the rich oligarchs in this country who run everything, and the working people who are trying to have a democracy instead. Unfortunately the oligarchs seem to be winning, as Paul Krugman documents. There's as much inequality and lack of social mobility in the US as in Brazil. This will still be a wealthy, powerful country for a while, but the Hunt brothers and their crowd run it, and they may well decide to destroy it. How many Iraq wars are they going to come up with?

Germany was also the greatest major country in the world, in the 1920s and 1930s. We still use their industrial techniques and medical discoveries. So these things can fall aparat fast.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[nbauman]

Thoreau and MLK went to jail, their incarceration simply became a demonstration of the manifest immorality of the law.

And you're saying that's a good thing. The Indians who were fighting the American settlers who were taking their land should have surrendered and gotten hung. The French resistance fighters should have surrendered to the Nazis and gotten shot.

If you had actually gone to jail over something, I might believe you.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[Anonymous Coward]

It is utter crap to say that 90% of the world today lives in democracies. China alone, a per population around 1.4 billion people, is a Communist country. With the world's population estimated around 7.1 billion people, at least 1/7th of the world's population does not live under Democratic rule. Once you add in countries that not communist but run by dictators you get even further from this rainbow and ponies number of 90%. Please don't go spouting useless drivel that you pull out of who knows where.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[clarkkent09]

Are you saying that the US covert agencies did it by overthrowing those dicatorships?
 
I am saying that the victory of the USA in the cold war brought about this change and it was a deliberate policy of the US since Woodrow Wilson to use it's power to promote democracy and freedom in the world in the long run, of course in a pragmatic way that does not sacrifice its own immediate interests. It's not a matter of being on suicidal crusade for some kind of perfect world, it is a matter of being on the side of good wherever possible. Russia for example has always seen that as our weakness, because it never understood the point having any policy that does not serve only the national interests of Russia. The world would be A LOT worse if Russia had won. I am saying USA and Russia, rather than NATO and Warsaw Pact or USSR because that is the reality, the rest were just pawns.

You have the convert's enthusiasm.
 
And you are taking what you have for granted.
 
  For example up until about 1968 black people were still being killed for trying to vote in the South, and they're still not doing that well. If you were black, you'd be a lot better off in the Communist bloc in the 1970s.
 
Really, a black person would show up to vote in 1968 and federal secret police would shove them in the back of a van and take them to a secret prison, or to an execution site where they would put a bullet in the back of their head without a trial? If that is really what happened and on a massive scale all over the country, then it would perhaps be a fair comparison to what was happening in the communist block.
 
  rich oligarchs in this country who run everything, and the working people who are trying to have a democracy instead.
 
Oh god, try living in the real world please. This kind of crap is not worth replying to.
 
  Germany was also the greatest major country in the world, in the 1920s and 1930s.We still use their industrial techniques and medical discoveries. So these things can fall aparat fast.
 
there are a lot of reasons for the rise of Hitler in the 30s in Germany but I'm pretty sure none of them have any similarity whatsoever to the situation in the USA today.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[clarkkent09]

Meant to say countries. Way more than 90% actually.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[dcollins117]

While modded as funny this is tragic that the US government is spying wholesale on it's own citizens, breaking the spirit of the Constitution to the extent that employees of the government feel the need to "blow the whistle" and expose those activities.

Good on you for pointing out the surveillance programs break the "spirit" of the constitution. They clearly do. Doom on the first guy who decided the Constitution needed to be interpreted. Interpreted, as though it were written in a foreign language. Seems like when you get to a certain level of political status you can "interpret" the document to mean anything you want. Witness Bill Clinton famously inquiring what the definition of the word "is" is. (Also note that it was a completely rhetorical question, he knows what "is" is.)

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[Anonymous Coward]

when I was growing up (70's)

realize that we were once a great nation, but sadly, I cannot say we are a great nation anymore.

Are you familiar with COINTELPRO? America has a LONG history of this kind of activity. If it has changed at all with time I think it would be by getting more sophisticated.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem here is that everything Snowden has exposed would appear to have the sanction of US law.

Is it really legal for government agencies to engage knowingly in mass violations of citizens constitutional rights?

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[dcollins117]

Listening to two different liars does not get you closer to the truth.

Both points and all points in-between are probably far away from anything resembling truth.

I like these quotes, I wish I said them. I feel the same way about the two party system here in America. A representative government only works when the voting populace has a clear understanding of reality. The fact that both sides misrepresent reality to such an astonishing degree makes it virtually impossible to determine what the truth is. This likely explains why things are so screwed up in this country and why the same assholes keep getting reelected.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[NormAtHome]

I didn't name a country since it's still not clear where he's actually going to go yet but it's clear he wasn't going to stay in Hong Kong probably because extradition is possible from there given enough time and red tape. Speculation on where his eventual destination was going to be included Russia, China, Cuba, Ecuador and somewhere I read that Iceland had offered him sanctuary but as someone else mentioned Iceland is a NATO country and I don't think he would have been safe there in the long term.

I think you'd have to agree that Russia, China, Cuba and Ecuador are not really bastions of free speech and those governments have been known to crack down hard on anti-government protests.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[Anonymous Coward]

Quite a few Anglosaxon intelligence, signals and other officers, scientists have defected to Russia for reasons of conscience, not money.

There were two NSA guys who were concerned about NSA sigint "recce" (better called "poke bear into ass and run") flights close or ABOVE soviet-controlled territory. These flights were designed to provoke the soviet air defence system into action, so that radar signals and their air defence command/control system could be recorded and analyzed later. American airplanes were shot down as a consequence. Crews killed.

The two NSA guys thought these flights could set off WW3 and first complained to a member of congress who did nothing. So they defected to Moscow.

Maybe naive, but if you think about their motives, these people were hardly traitors. They had a fucking conscience, just like Bradley Manning, while vast portions of the populace are just robots. Willing to be guided to the slaughterhouse of Stalingrad, the Yalu river or some Vietnamese forest. Provided there is first-rate propaganda from Hollywood at hand.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[nbauman]

For example up until about 1968 black people were still being killed for trying to vote in the South, and they're still not doing that well. If you were black, you'd be a lot better off in the Communist bloc in the 1970s.

Really, a black person would show up to vote in 1968 and federal secret police would shove them in the back of a van and take them to a secret prison, or to an execution site where they would put a bullet in the back of their head without a trial?

Yes, that happened quite a bit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippi_civil_rights_workers'_murders

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Hampton

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[Anonymous Coward]

Those crews who were tasked with "dummy" runs of their B52s with LIVE nukes on board against soviet-controlled territory would have had a reason for defection, too. I am not sure any one of them did, but Benjamin Kissinger and Trick Nixon really played with the lives of 50 million people of LA, NY, Seattle, Sand Francisco. Was called "Giant Lance".

This is also a great study of how WE are subjected to insidious propaganda, as we were/are told "the soviets are just paranoid about nuclear war, we don't know why". The actions of David Kissinger and Nixon were a direct play with nuclear annihilation of a large portion of humanity.

See what the corrupt establishment does ? They get a Noble Prize. You better see through the Scandinavian Cocksuckers and their "soft" image. They are the Facilitators Of Death, not less.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[greenbird]

Thats how a Democracy should function.

A Democracy cannot function were the "Democratic" government is wholesale monitoring the people it is supposed to be representing especially when that monitoring is kept secret from the governed.

A Democracy cannot function where the "Democratic" government keeps critical secrets from the governed. It's not possible to make informed decisions in voting when you're intentionally uninformed and misinformed.

A government "elected" based on propaganda and untruths is not a "Democratic" government. This is especially so where exposing the propaganda and untruths can only be done under threat of imprisonment, torture and even death.

One who exposes such actions and secrets is not betraying the Democracy. They are betraying an oppressive undemocratic government. Given the constitution they're suppose to be governing under in the US I dare say they are exposing an illegal government.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[iluvcapra]

All I'm saying is that if you're practicing civil disobedience and trying to stay out of jail, you're doing it wrong. Civil disobedience against an immoral law requires that you bear the penalty society and the government imposes. You let them shoot the fire hoses in your face, and let the world judge. You let them do it until everyone else hates them for doing it; you let them do it until they hate themselves for doing it. If you're serious about civil liberties in our country, I suspect that's what's required, people simply don't realize the evils done in their name.

Snowden did a good thing, but he did broke the law and he should be prepared to accept the consequences of that -- be they jail or unofficial exile. It's in the punishment that the immorality of laws are revealed, not the breach. That said, he's probably doing the right thing by not coming back, but we've yet to see if he's the sort of leader this movement needs, or if he's was even trying to do good, as opposed to simply trolling or committing vandalism.

If you had actually gone to jail over something, I might believe you.

You don't have to believe me, just read Gandhi and Thoreau:

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also a prison. where the State places those who are not with her, but against her,– the only house in a slave State in which a free man can abide with honor. Cast your whole vote, not a strip of paper merely, but your whole influence.

I admit that while there are things in this world I don't like, I ain't willing to go to jail to change them, and this tells me that the things I don't like probably aren't such a big deal. This may be a pretty compromised worldview, but I'm not sure malcontents posting on Slashdot have any superior claim to ethics. Newsflash: You can't defeat a corrupt government with Retweets and Likes, or even by leaking a terabyte of diplomatic correspondence. Giving the Man a middle finger is a pointless exercise.

The Evil here is in the minds of millions of Americans who simply don't believe there is a problem. What it definitely is NOT is a conspiracy of a few powerful people to hide the truth from the Sheeple: you could tell the American people about every privacy violation that has occurred, and they'd mostly be okay with it, because they believe that it doesn't affect them. Julian Assange and Glenn Greenwald can reveal all kinds of domestic surveillance, and can leak any number of internal documents, it just doesn't matter.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[Anonymous Coward]

If you think this ever stopped, you are naive.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[Anonymous Coward]

By means of Television, you can nowadays Program People. It works better than anything they had in the past. You control TV, you control the populace.

Essentially, you have maximum bandwidth access to your subjects: Ears and Eyes. Welcome to the Matrix !

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[Anonymous Coward]

We've got the internet, we've got the drones, we've got the ICBMs. The world is at our feet.

10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 Skynet Initiated

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[jez9999]

He should reveal that he's a homosexual. That way no Russians are even allowed to admit that he exists.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, wash your ass with the constitution and Manning him (sleep deprivation). He has offended the Imperium of Bank criminals.

Anglosaxon doublespeak makes all of you despicable.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[nbauman]

I knew people who went down to participate in the Civil Rights movement in the South during the 1960s. Many of them also participated in the movement against the war in Vietnam. I went on a couple of demonstrations with them myself.

I never heard of an official rule book on civil disobedience. They did what they thought was effective. For Ghandi and MLK, doing things publicly and getting arrested worked. In other situations they didn't.

A lot of people didn't think it would do any good to refuse to be drafted, and go to jail for 10 years. I don't either. They went to Canada instead.

Daniel Ellsburg did a lot to end the Vietnam war. He did it secretly and didn't want to get arrested. If he were being prosecuted under today's rules, he might have gone to jail for 10 or 20 years. What's the point of that? Richard Nixon didn't go to jail.

Jail is something the government does to make you less effective. I'd rather be effective. There were a few moments in history when you could get valuable publicity for your cause by going to jail. Today isn't one of those moments.

If you want to engage in civil disobedience, reveal your lawbreaking and go to jail, be my guest. Other people want to fight injustice and stay out of jail. That's their decision.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[0111 1110]

All I'm saying is that if you're practicing civil disobedience and trying to stay out of jail, you're doing it wrong.

Which is why the idea of "civil disobedience", at least your definition of it, is idiotic. The false dichotomy that you must either obey all laws no matter how ridiculous or intentionally go to jail or commit suicide or whatever is just as idiotic. There is nothing wrong with just ignoring stupid laws and there is nothing wrong with choosing exile over jail or execution as the consequence of your actions.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[iluvcapra]

I'm pretty soft on Ellsberg's contribution to "end" of the Vietnam war -- the Papers only came out in mid-1971, at a time when Vietnamization had been in full swing for over two years, US troop involvement at the beginning of the year was less than a third off the 1969 peak and every office of the US government was frantically trying to extricate itself from the disaster. Ellsberg's leak became a football for different factions in the government to fix blame, while passing the buck for responsibility for the defeat (let alone the war) as such; doves in the Democratic party used it to discredit the hawks, and the legacy of Lyndon Johnson and Robert MacNamara in particular. It completed the damage begun by Chicago '68, and by 1972 the Democratic Party was a party in name only, utterly smashed into a liberal/leftist/pacifist wing, and a hawk/anticommunist/Scoop Jackson wing, which would eventually become a part of Reagan's base. If Nixon had released the papers himself he could not have done more damage to the political left.

Jail is something the government does to make you less effective. I'd rather be effective.

I'm sure that's what Carlos the Jackal told himself every morning. The Romantic Revolutionary Fugitive trope is the kryptonite of sustainable freedom movements; criminal gangs (and self-obsorbed Laptop Revolutionaries hiding in embassies) cannot bring about good government, no matter how pure their intentions. They simply feed into and legitimize the state's narrative of lawlessness as opposed to order.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[iluvcapra]

It isn't my definition, it's the definition of the people who actually did it to great positive effect.

There is nothing wrong with just ignoring stupid laws and there is nothing wrong with choosing exile over jail

I'm pretty sure that's what I said, he's gonna end up living in Ecuador or Moscow (or Leavenworth) eventually, that's the consequence.

The people in the wrong are the ones demanding a pardon -- it's easy for the government to pardon a leaker here, a leaker there, because they still retain the right to not do so in any other case. When one demands a pardon, one is confirming the legitimacy of the regime to grant one in the first place. It's impossible to defeat a law by demanding exceptions.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[TheGratefulNet]

I am ashamed that most of the US willingly buys the bullshit that we are 'safer' with the last 10 years of laws than we were before.

the slash crowd mostly sees thru the BS but if you look at the polls, you find that far too many have bought the security theater concept and don't think its a theater at all.

the leaders are mostly to blame, but the ignorant masses who sit there watching stupid TV shows and putting their brains on perma-hold are also to blame. as long as sports and tv and mcdonalds continue on, there won't be an uprising against our corrupt government.

this is why I'm ashamed of america right now. we have let things get too broken for too long - and there's still no end in sight.

in school, we teach kids that its better to be a jock than a brain. the anti-intellectualism starts at an early age and it 'helps' keep the number of independant thinkers down. by plan, too, not by accident.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[Anonymous Coward]

Whatever you think about the prosecution of Bradley Manning, the fact on the record is that he was held without charge for less than two months.

Okay, that's about seven weeks too long, but it's a lot less than the 'months or years' you're insinuating.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[SteveFoerster]

The assumption seems to be that the U.S. federal government is the moral equivalent to the Assad regime. I may have a lot of concerns about the former, but I don't believe it's as bad as the latter.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[mjwx]

This makes those 'In Soviet Russia' jokes somewhat more believable...

In Corporatocratic USA, NSA Whistleblows you!

Whistle blows you.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[Anonymous Coward]

The world is the same as always. Countries are the same as always. Secret police are the same as always.
China has imaged his hard drives and USB sticks. Russia will do the same.

Whose secret police would you prefer to b detained by China, Russia, or US ?

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[tyrione]

Well said.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[xenobyte]

He is being charged with espionage, which is a legitimate charge given his actions.

No it isn't. He didn't turn over state secrets to an enemy which is the definition of espionage. He disclosed the back side to the legislation implemented since 9/11 which is neither a secret nor something an enemy can use to threaten the USA in any way.

One of the fallout issues is the revelation that this legislation uses various forms of secrecy to hide the fact that the government is spying on its citizens based on absolutely not concrete suspicion which is a clear violation of the Constitution. The obvious solution is to adjust this spy program so that mass spying is stopped and spying on specific individuals or organizations is only allowed based on a concrete suspicion and warrant. That would make it comply with the Constitution and make law abiding citizen free of spying.

Arguments that mass spying is necessary to catch 'lone gunmen' and similar are null and void. Absolutely none of those 'lone gunmen' ever revealed by this program was unknown to other law enforcement; the were all on various watchlists and in various crosshairs. This means the spying wasn't relevant and that proper vigilance in these law enforcement units would have solved the issue without the need for massive spying on almost exclusively innocent people. This also means that anyone who ends up on such a list should be investigated properly instead of just being a mostly ignored name on a list. The Boston bombers were on a FBI list and they were questioned (one of them were) but no further action were taken. A bit more investigation would easily have revealed their radicalization (regular journalists were able to do this when their connection to the terror attack became known) and then it would just be a matter of regular warrants, surveillance and so on, and quite possibly prevention of the attack.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[Anonymous Coward]

You know that about 10,000 people per year are granted asylum from prosecution in the US?

Your country is not as great as you might think.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[Anonymous Coward]

and yet, we'll continue to lie to our kids at school when we teach them about our 'constitution' and how we have the high moral ground on all the issues and that the US is the most free country in the world.

I wonder, at what age, do the kids see thru the bullshit and realize they are being lied to 180degrees ?

Every country teaches their kids how they live in the best place on earth. Some of them then go living and dying believeing it.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[Anonymous Coward]

Not exactly. The Russians are arming a mass murdering dicatator, the Americans are arming the allies of al-Qaeda. The responsible thing would be to do neither.

Yes.

US and NATO grossly overstepped the UN mandate in Libya. The Russian reaction to Syria is a counter reaction to that. You know "fool me once ... "

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry dude, you obamafied your nation twice. You have very good reasons feeling ashamed.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sorry but I'm not at home so will have to make do with the AC tag.

But HK is one of the few countries which will stamp you in on arrival, very few questions asked AND doesn't have a strong US military presence or unquestioning extradition treaties...

Off my head:

Cuba, Mainland China. Morocco.Iran and. Nicaragua have no extradition treaties. All of those countries except HK (SAR) have some hurdles to jump for a visa. Mainland China specifically exempts Americans from same day visas at the North Hong Kong border and the Macanese borders too.

While Iran I travelled there and the visa was a headache and I'm just a civilian.

I mean where else would you go? UK/Europe extradites ANYBODY the US government asks for, Japan, Korea have extradition treaties and significant US military presence. India/Pakistan visa applications.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[Anonymous Coward]

constitution only talks about US citizens. As far as the US is officially concerned, there are no intrinsic fundamental rights for any other people. And since you can't really see who is who on the net before you spy on them, there are none for you americans either.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[1s44c]

The assumption is that any government will fight for its own survival against fundamentalists.

The current Syrian government stands accused of killing extremist nutters whilst fighting for survival. The nutters are being armed because they are being killed because they are trying to destroy the government. The US is arming its own enemies and creating massive problems for its future.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[Anonymous Coward]

Here in Norway, a phrase you often hear in the context of politics is "naturally comparable countries", meaning those countries with which it is meaningful to compare ourselves.

It never ceases to amaze me that so many Americans will compare themselves to countries that it *shouldn't* be natural or meaningful for them to compare themselves to, such as "Iran, Afghanistan, Russia, China, North Korea" in the parent post. Try comparing with Finland, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Iceland, Frace, Germany, Belgium, Switzerland, UK and The Netherlands instead. Actual first world democracies with solid economies, a high standard of living, high level of education, low unemployment, low corruption, low crime and so forth.

Many of these countries are freer in every way that mattered to the Founding Fathers than what the USA currently is, which is not so much to our credit as to your shame. In a bit of hyperbole with a kernel of truth to it, the prime minister of Norway said that the American Dream came true, except, it came true up here, rather than in the USA. Life, liberty and pursuit of happiness is far more accessible here than there. And bear in mind that Norway is probably the least appealing of the countries I mentioned, so you can definitely do better.

It's hard to tell how well you're doing in a race if you constantly watch the people falling behind, rather than the ones at the head of the pack. So, yeah... better comparisons in the future, maybe?

Just a thought.

Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US.

[TangoMargarine]

Ever heard of a little thing called "treason" i.e. "don't tell our secrets to anybody ever"?

BBC and NYT confirm this news

[aheath]

The BBC and the New York Times also have articles reporting the Edward Snowden has left Hong Kong on a flight to Moscow.

Re:BBC and NYT confirm this news

[taiwanjohn]

Others speculate that he's only going to Moscow in transit to Iceland (which has offered him asylum) or some other place.

Re:BBC and NYT confirm this news

[theVarangian]

Others speculate that he's only going to Moscow in transit to Iceland (which has offered him asylum) or some other place.

AFAIK Iceland has not offered him asylum. The Icelanders just changed to a fiercely right wing government which has already refused to consider asylum unless Snowden actually lands in Reykjavik and hands in an asylum request in person. That does not exactly indicate much enthusiasm for pissing off Obama and the US Republicans. I'd say Snowden is unlikely to receive much sympathy with the current Icelandic Govt. unless the Icelandic population gets together and to forces them to reconsider by protesting or gathering enough names on a petition. Given the size of the country and the close knit nature of Icelandic society it is actually surprisingly easy to get up to 25-30% of the electorate to sign such a petition if you can stir up enough support.

Re:BBC and NYT confirm this news

[ultranova]

Others speculate that he's only going to Moscow in transit to Iceland (which has offered him asylum) or some other place.

Can Iceland offer him an effective asylum? It's a (pretty remote) island in Atlantic, with low population and almost no military. What, exactly speaking, would stop the US from simply taking him? It does have a history of invading small countries for whatever reason, and both R and D have plenty of reason to scare other whistleblowers into silence.

Re:BBC and NYT confirm this news

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know, they might want to flip US the bird since they're still pissed about us pulling our four F-16s out of there, thus leaving them high and dry with respect to air power.

Re:BBC and NYT confirm this news

[niftydude]

Also rather interesting is that the guardian is reporting that wikileaks is assisting him and that he is travelling with a couple of wikileaks' legal advisers to make sure everything goes along relatively smoothly: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/23/edward-snowden-arrives-moscow

Re:BBC and NYT confirm this news

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought Obama was a democrat...
Anyhowever close-knit, didnt stop Philip Green and his Bankster-Cohorts from ripping off the Icelanders, or have they re-negotiated to pay 25-30%?

Petitions are good, but maybe for an offer of Honourary-Citizenship; of all western countries, it is perhaps the Icelanders who understand and appreciate the benefits of advanced-warning and humanity in the face of tumult; the boy on the hilltop who sees the coming storm and rings the alarm, the mountain-man who tells the villagers to stay indoors because the fat americans are trooping around and might cause an avalanche..... oh, wait a minute, that was Assange!

NSA last week, Cheltenham this, what about Akemai telaviv, Amdocs telaviv, and the AIPAC databases? heinous data-siphoning we are sure.......

Re:BBC and NYT confirm this news

[ColdWetDog]

Yes, lets get this idea of In Transit in front of your Average American. In most countries, you can land at an airport and 'not be in the country' - you are in transit. You don't have to show your passport, you don't need a Visa, you don't need much except directions to the next flight.

In the current Soviet States of America, you may need all of those things and some additional paperwork.

The upshot is that Snowden is likely just connecting to somewhere else without the annoying hassles he would if he tried it in the US. Russia isn't necessarily the good guys, it's just that the US is turning out to be the obese 1600 pound poorly trained gorilla.

Sic Transit Gloria Mundi.

Re:BBC and NYT confirm this news

[Karl Cocknozzle]

The BBC and the New York Times also have articles reporting the Edward Snowden has left Hong Kong on a flight to Moscow.

If he's wise he'll feed a number of organizations with fake "destination" info through multiple cut-outs so that the reports are that he's going everywhere. He's not invulnerable in a Moscow airport, whether outside the secure area or not... Low probability he'll transit through such a large city where the US undoubtedly has intelligence assets and spec ops "operators" available on the period of notice they have for him being there...

Re:BBC and NYT confirm this news

[davester666]

You need all these things if the US thinks any part of the plane you are on will fly through any airspace they claim as belonging to them.

Re:BBC and NYT confirm this news

[Anonymous Coward]

Iceland is a member of NATO, as is the US....that would probably complicate a US-led invasion of Iceland....now, covertly moving a person from Iceland to the US....

Re:BBC and NYT confirm this news

[shutdown -p now]

Iceland is not just any small country. It's a first world European country with close ties to EU members. Invading it to get some whistleblower would be seen in a very negative light by Europe - it would probably result in immediate dissolution of NATO, and economic sanctions by EU against US.

Re:BBC and NYT confirm this news

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're comparing Iceland to Grenada, you're very mistaken. The US can do pretty much as it pleases in it's own backyard, but Iceland is a European country.

European countries generally speaking are way too eager to jump when the US tells them to, but outright kidnapping etc would be an act of such arrogance it would not go well down at all. In fact, any similar hostile, "in your face" actions would have tremendous political effects. The politicians are getting out of step with their constituents, and the US is not well seen anymore in the real world.

Re:BBC and NYT confirm this news

[isorox]

The BBC and the New York Times also have articles reporting the Edward Snowden has left Hong Kong on a flight to Moscow.

You realise all news organisations use the same sources? Certainly the Bbc didn't have anyone on the plane (not enough notice I guess, even if they had someone that could transit in Russia without a visa).

It's like the old tale, channel A report a rumour, channel b repeat it, channel a report that it's confirmed based on channel b's report.

"News" that matters?

[arth1]

By the time this was posted on slashdot, he hadn't just left Hong Kong, but landed in Moscow.

DICE: When copying news in development, please make sure you update it as needed before posting. This worked better before. Not well, but it has become worse.

Re:"News" that matters?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd rather not know where he is. I wish him good fortune.

Re:"News" that matters?

[Mathinker]

> I'd rather not know where he is.

You'd just be undermining his chosen strategy for minimizing the chance he'll "be disappeared". Frankly, what he wants is for all of us to know where he is, all the time.

Re:"News" that matters?

[aheath]

Slashdot isn't supposed to be a site for breaking news. Slashdot is supposed to be a site with news for nerds and stuff that matters. If you look at the date line on the AP and Reuters stories you will see that Snowden was well on his way to Moscow before the news broke. I saw the news on the BBC site and jumped to Slashdot to see if the news was posted here. I saw that this article was in the queue. I was about to send an email to report the updates when I refreshed the page and the article had been published. A tip of the hat to hazeii and samzenpus for posting this new so quickly.

Re:"News" that matters?

[Bing Tsher E]

'Timely news posts' at the top of the page are not that important on Slashdot.

I found out about the September 11 terrorist attacks from a user comment that morning on Slashdot. Somebody just posted it had happened off-topic (I am not sure if it was then modded that way or not, lots of people were pretty busy with other concerns that morning,) and it was time to check CNN and some of the 'other' sites on the Internet.

Slashdot is a pretty dynamic blog for regulars.

Re:"News" that matters?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's what he posted on his Facebook wall.
He's not stupid, though.

Re:"News" that matters?

[ColdWetDog]

Why should they bother? Since when has reality had anything to do with what we post?

You must be new here.

Re:"News" that matters?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh my, looks like you've been brain-washed by the TV media who want you to think that the only "news" must be "breaking" news with constant updates so you have to stay glued to your TV and absorb all the ads during and in between the reports.

Discontinue your cable service and stop listening to commercial radio for 2-3 years so you can start thinking clearly again.

Re:"News" that matters?

[arth1]

Oh my, looks like you've been brain-washed by the TV media who want you to think that the only "news" must be "breaking" news with constant updates so you have to stay glued to your TV and absorb all the ads during and in between the reports.

No, but when it is announced as breaking news, it's hardly too much to ask that they take a minute to look at the sources they reference before posting it. Not only because it's good journalism to check the sources, but if you want to sell it as breaking news, it shouldn't be outdated before you post it.

Re:"News" that matters?

[hazeii]

As the OP, I posted this as soon as I saw it. AFAIK (I did try) it isn't possible to edit the entry while it's in the submission queue; I do agree with a fast-moving story like this it would have been nice to be able to update it right up to the moment of publication.

One of the coolest things I wanted to add was a link to FlightRadar, where it was possible to watch Ed Snowden's flight in real time on its way to Moscow.

Should be interesting tomorrow; will Aeroflot pass through US airspace on the way to Cuba? (anyone found a link to a live feed of Ed Snowden's heart rate?)

(NT) good journey and good luck.

[Anonymous Coward]

(NT) good journey and good luck.

Good much safer bet

[DarkOx]

China's interests are to tied to maintaining their farce of good relations with our government. They would have interceded and made HK turn him over eventually. Putin's ego on the other hand will triumph over any desire to not raise tensions (which he may actually want anyway); this will offer Snowden much better protection.

Re:Good much safer bet

[BitZtream]

Right, because being Russia's bitch for 6 months before they are done with you and treat you as the traitor you are ... is a good thing.

The only thing any foreign government cares about with him is secrets. When thats done, so is he.

Re:Good much safer bet

[0111 1110]

He's clearly not planning to stay in Russia. He doesn't even have a visa, which is not easy to get on short notice, but why would Russia consider him a traitor? If he were to give them information about NSA operations he would be a patriot from their perspective.

Slashdot - Yesterday news that matters

[Anonymous Coward]

He just landed in Moscow.
It takes about same time for news to appear on Slashdot as it takes to fly from Hong Kong to Moscow.

No place to hide

[Anonymous Coward]

I hope for Snowden that the NSA doesn't read slashdot.

Re:No place to hide

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd be happy if the NSA had to rely on /. for information.

ISR

[eneville]

In Soviet China, Moscow extradites you

Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[eldavojohn]

What I heard on NPR this morning is that Snowden's rumored travel involves Moscow to Cuba and then Cuba to Caracas, Venezuela according to an unidentified Aeroflot official.

That, of course, could all be misdirection.

Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[PolygamousRanchKid]

Old spy escape wisdom . . . never run in a straight line . . . and never stop too long in one place.

However, if Snowdon is actually a "spy" or a more a "whistleblower", is up for debate.

Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[Trepidity]

That's what I've heard reported elsewhere as well. But just now I saw that the Norwegian Pirate Party claims he's en route to Oslo.

Rough translation of the tweet: "#Snowden has landed in Moscow on the way to Oslo, Gardermoen. The Pirate Party will mobilize support in Oslo when he arrives."

No idea if that's legit.

Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[DarkOx]

Who knows; and you know what probably for the best. Why not have all the friendlies you can announce you are on the way to seek asylum in their country? Might as well make the US law enforcement waste it times trying to figure out who to strong arm.

Re: Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[JWW]

I support what he has done, and appreciate him informing American citizens to the constant surveillance that we at under.

But Venezuela? I want him to escape prosecution. I do not want him to enable a despotic government to appear to be free. Ironically Snowden will be "free" in Venezuela, but the Venezuelan people are not.

I was really hoping he'd end up in Iceland.

Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[Anonymous Coward]

That's what I've heard reported elsewhere as well. But just now I saw that the Norwegian Pirate Party claims he's en route to Oslo.

Rough translation of the tweet: "#Snowden has landed in Moscow on the way to Oslo, Gardermoen. The Pirate Party will mobilize support in Oslo when he arrives."

No idea if that's legit.

It's almost certainly false and done as a show of support by the Norwegian Pirate Party.

Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[__aaltlg1547]

The same principles apply no matter why you're on the run.

Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[Idimmu Xul]

However, if Snowdon is actually a "spy" or a more a "whistleblower", is up for debate.

May be we should have a trial and find out?

Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[SuricouRaven]

I heard he was on a flight to Equador, as they have shown some willingness to protect whistleblowers sought by the US.

Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[rasmusbr]

It's probably a decoy. I highly doubt he's heading for a NATO country.

Re: Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[flyingfsck]

Why are you moaning about the few million non-free people in Venezuela, compared to the 300 million people in the United Democratic Republic of America?

Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[Anonymous Coward]

That would be ideal, but the US has not been treating accused whistleblowers with any fairness or justice lately; who will hold this trial, since we appear to be incapable of not prosecuting them as guilty from the moment we lay hands on them?

Re: Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[rasmusbr]

Iceland is not a bad place to live, and there is a great deal of freedom there, but Iceland is also a US ally. There is a semi-closed US military air base close to Reykjavik. It would be trivially easy to seize Snowden by force and fly him to the US if the Icelandic government does not cooperate.

I wouldn't go to any NATO or EU country if I were him.

Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[Anonymous Coward]

To find out what? That he leaked confidential information? We already know that.

The idea that he's a spy is ludicrous. Since when spies tell what they know to everyone?

Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean a show trial like that held for Manning?

Re: Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[Anonymous Coward]

"Amerika"

Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[Rockoon]

Whether you think what he did was good aside, he's absolutely guilty of distributing confidential information and has admitted it.

He has admitted to violating a contract, but contracts are superseded by the laws of the land. He is accused of treason, for which he has not admitted to nor has what he admitted to indicate treason. What he has admitted to is that he observed the government breaking the law.

Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[Rockoon]

I heard that he was on his way to meet with John Galt.

Re: Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[bradrum]

Yes I would hope he would end up in a mostly democratic country as well. It would be great to see people in Iceland rise up against international espionage of the color that the NSA is engaged in.

But after the US almost got the Turkish government to amend there constitution to use Turkish bases in the Iraq war, I realized how the US has become an agent against democracy. They used all kinds of economic and military incentives that almost brought Turkey to amend its constitution against the sentiment of the vast majority of voters in that country. I would expect the current US government would play the same knuckle twisting to get a lowly "traitor" extradited from any western ally and hence the US would play a role in spoiling another democracy.

Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[TheGratefulNet]

where can he get a fair trial?

0.0% of that happening in the US. he tweaked those in power and he, like julian and manning, won't be given any kind of fairness.

litmus test: do you think he can get a fair trial here in the US? if you answer yes, you've just shown your ignorance or depth of brainwashing.

Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[SuricouRaven]

Who is John Galt?

Re: Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[mounthood]

He's been banished from Pax Americana*, so don't mistake his presence for endorsement. Rather, remember why he is banished.

*The minor resistance of local officials, like the Ecuadorian embassy or Pirate Party, is a normal part of the system. Politics by other means.

Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[ColdWetDog]

I don't think he has been formally accused of 'treason' - which has a very, very narrow definition in the US. He's been accused of 'espionage' which is different.

Re: Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[tysonedwards]

Since the Facebook generation.

Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[Anonymous Coward]

the problem is, intent is a major part of espionage, and what is on the table so far, has no indication of that.

Re: Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[Anonymous Coward]

Because you brought this on yourself - with the Im middle class I got a 401k, 'merkins got talent' n cable sports Im allright.

Most of SA problems are legacies of you lot treating it like it was your backyard.

Re: Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[Bob9113]

But Venezuela? I want him to escape prosecution. I do not want him to enable a despotic government to appear to be free.

The problem with the non-despotic governments is that my government keeps threatening them if they don't carry our despotic water.

Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[drinkypoo]

I don't think he has been formally accused of 'treason'

That however has not prevented senators et cetera from loudly claiming that he is a traitor, thus guaranteeing (as if there were previously any doubt) the impossibility of a fair trial.

Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[bill_mcgonigle]

the problem is, intent is a major part of espionage, and what is on the table so far, has no indication of that.

Nixon's DoJ filed espionage charges against Ellsberg too. Obama and Nixon are turning out to have very similar governance styles. Except Nixon only filed one Espionage Act charge against leaker(s) - Obama is up to seven. Before Obama the total stood at three.

Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[Anonymous Coward]

May be we should have a trial and find out?

You are as naive as a young child if you believe a trial
would result in an outcome which remotely resembled justice.

The US is at a frantic stage now, and it is ready to do anything
to retain the power it seeks. The rule of law in the US is a joke
for anyone who understands the way the system really works.
The US is a tyrant state which engages in torture and murder
with imagined impunity. For those who know history, this is
one of the certain signs of an empire collapsing.

*

Re: Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[Anonymous Coward]

He should join the french foreign legion. They will give him a new identity and they could probably use technical experts.

Re: Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[Clsid]

As a Venezuelan, I can tell you that we are not governed by a despotic government. Scream at me if you like but we just had an election after the other president we had died, people were kind of undecided between two candidates that represented two very different political ideologies. One of them won and while people might feel angry that does not give you the right to say that is despotic. In fact, I believe that is how true democracy should work. Who says that I cannot vote for a socialist government in a democracy? If anything, I think Venezuelans have been enjoying a lot of political freedoms in that regard with a couple of issues. A country is not only composed of rich people and corporations dictating what is good for everybody else.

Having said that, the current Venezuelan government has made some colossal mistakes regarding currency exchange controls that is affecting all the industry. They make Chavez look like Adam Smith in a way.

Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[tqk]

Might as well make the US law enforcement waste it times trying to figure out who to strong arm.

Next up, NSLs to all the airlines for backdoors into their reservations systems. "Oh shit! Did we forget to do that?!? Crap!"

Re: Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[tqk]

I was really hoping he'd end up in Iceland.

I was really hoping that this whole ridiculous mess would wind up with him living freely as a hero in Hawaii. There's still time for that to happen. Whether it will is up to you, USA. Step up to the plate.

Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[Anonymous Coward]

It's probably a decoy. I highly doubt he's heading for a NATO country.

Why? How would NATO get involved? NATO countries participate with each other by sending out, sort of loaning out, troops and resources to other, non-NATO countries. You'll never see NATO operating in the US, and likewise, you'll never see them operating in Iceland. They operate in war torn states, like Bosnia, Afghanistan, Iraq or Libya, or have humanitarian missions in other African countries... none of which are NATO members. If Snowden was planning on hiding among Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, then possibly NATO might be a concern to him. Iceland... not so much.

Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[1s44c]

Whether you think what he did was good aside, he's absolutely guilty of distributing confidential information and has admitted it.

To expose US wrongdoing in the hope of changing it. What he did he did for the greater good.

Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[1s44c]

You mean a show trial like that held for Manning?

No, I think they will go for the Kafka approach just like they do in gitmo.

Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[Anonymous Coward]

How did this garbage get modded up? The comment makes no sense. The relevant factor is whether the country has an extradition treaty with the US, not whether they have a collaborative defence agreement.

Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[Lumpy]

If he was smart he would go on a starvation diet and start growing facial hair. he could change his looks enough to get past most of the spook net looking for him if he went native in eastern europe and went for rural or even wilderness travel routes.

Hell you could escape the FBI and all the law enforcement inside the USA if you did it right. Our experts utterly suck at tracking once you step off the roadways. And yes even our drones are garbage for tracking in wilderness. I have everything in my hiking backpack to hide from the best drones the military has easily.

What makes the Police/FBI lucky is that 95% of the time the people they chase are stupid. it's that 5% prepared and smart ones that they never ever find.

Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[BitZtream]

Uhm espionage is the act of a traitor. Do you understand what it is?

Re: Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[Tom]

Ironically Snowden will be "free" in Venezuela, but the Venezuelan people are not.

Are we really more free - or have we just been fooled more successfully into thinking we are?

Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[Anonymous Coward]

Not strictly true. To be a traitor you have to be a citizen of the country in question. Espionage implies actions against a country, not necessarily your own.

Re: Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[Anonymous Coward]

When the government seizes assests from companies based in other countries just because they can, its a despot.
When the government outlaws the right for citizens to own fireams suddenly, its a despot.
When the government takes money from the successful just to give it to others for votes based on the rich not supporting the current administration, its a despot.

Sorry you are the beneficary of the depsot and don't see it. Start a business, become successful, and express a different opinion from who is running that country and come back and tell me its not a despot.

Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[dbIII]

His job was outsourced spy. I'd say with so much outsourcing China, Russia or anybody who wants to know would already have found somebody who wants a bit of cash on the side and already know everything Snowdon could tell them.

Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[rasmusbr]

Well, I should have said NATO-countries minus France (and maybe Norway), plus other US-aligned countries. This map is probably a pretty good indication of where not to go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CIA_Secret_Prisons.jpg

NATO by the way is primarily a club that promotes military, political and economic cooperation and sharing of resources and preventing infighting between countries within the US sphere of influence. The defense assurances are unlikely to ever come into effect, but they are of course essential in order for the whole thing to work.

Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[dbIII]

very, very narrow definition in the US

So narrow that not even a serving military officer selling US made weapons to a group that had killed over a hundred US marines less than a year previously (Hezbolla), via a declared enemy of the United States (Iran), doesn't count as treason.

Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[amaurea]

Here is a map of countries with extradition treaties with the USA:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:United_States_extradition_treaties_countries.PNG
It seems unbelievably broad, and includes all the countries he is speculated to be going to after Russia, it seems.

Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[Kohath]

Objectivism

Objectivists believe in free will and choice. If you think of yourself as an exploited prole, be a grown-up and choose a different role for yourself.

If you think of yourself as the anointed protector of the poor exploited proles, then, by asking them to fulfill a subservient role for your personal ego aggrandizement, you're the one exploiting them.

Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[ColdWetDog]

Now you're using Senators as a proxy for understanding a definition?

You're on pretty shaky ground, there.

(Of course, he can't possibly have a fair trial. They don't want him to have a fair trial. They want him to have a plane crash or a heart attack or better yet, to be found in a compromising position with an underage age dragon of the opposite sex and then have a heart attack while flying a plane.

Re: Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[arth1]

I've said it before, but I think it deserves repeating;
In the US, we define freedom as whatever we have at any given point. If it changes, the definition of freedom changes with it. That way, we can always be the land of the free.

We haven't been the home of the brave for quite a while, though. The fear of what single men might do has pervaded our lives. We're the cowards of the world, burrowing in our holes and striking from afar.

Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[Anonymous Coward]

What's Oliver North doing nowadays? Talk show host?

Re: Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[nbauman]

Am I correct in recalling that the Venezuelan people elect their president by majority vote?

Re: Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[nbauman]

How do you get 300 million people in the US aren't free?

Aside from the 30 million black people, that's 270 million people who are free. Who else do you subtract?

Re: Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe this?

Are You Living in a Constitution Free Zone?
http://www.aclu.org/national-security_technology-and-liberty/are-you-living-constitution-free-zone

Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[dcollins117]

quote>Whether you think what he did was good aside, he's absolutely guilty of distributing confidential information and has admitted it.

Yes, and he's headed straight to Russia. I'm sure this makes Russian intelligence agents very happy, and US official very sad.

Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[greenbird]

Except Nixon only filed one Espionage Act charge against leaker(s)

Nixon also only monitored a small number of US citizens rather than everybody in the US.

Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[greenbird]

Objectivists are perfectly happy with the government spying on everyone.

I find it amazing the number of people who make statements declaring ideas like this represent Ayn Rand's philosophy when in reality it is exactly what she was railing against. Here is one quote that shows you are utterly clueless about what objectivism is supposed to represent. Ayn Rand:

Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men.

Re: Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[Anonymous Coward]

sure, kind of like aljazzera trying to get airtime in the usa?

Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[Trepidity]

None of your business. But not someone who's gonna act altruistically to save yo' ass from the USA, that much is for sure.

Re: Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[Clsid]

I actually have a successful business in Venezuela and I'm not employed or paid by the government.

When they nationalized assets from companies they did pay compensation. So far they regained control of two companies that used to be state companies, like a big steel mill and the state telephone and internet company. They also took control of big corporations that controlled grain distribution for farmers and decided who they would finance (read people with big money). They nationalized failed banks instead of giving bailout money to corrupt bankers, and also started splitting farm land from big landowners (again by giving them money) so that the land could become more productive.

I have to say that a lot of these programs were actually pretty good, especially when it comes to banks and the state phone company, which keeps the cheapest cell phone rates and best internet service throughout the country. But on some other fronts they created more problems than they solved. When they nationalized cement factories because they were exporting a lot of the production instead of selling it locally, they replaced capitalist corruption with government inefficiency, since when they took it they created a major mess on the cement supply. Nowadays is better but in general I failed to see nationalizations as a bad thing. If it is used selectively it can actually be very good.

The firearms issue in Venezuela is not a despotic one either. In my case I actually prefer to be allowed to carry firearms even if I don't own one myself, but I can totally see where they are coming from. Venezuela is ridden with violence, and it's not only firearms, it's just easier for people to start hitting or screaming at each other for something they don't agree with here than in other countries I have seen. And the fact that I know one person that got shot and another one that was beaten to a pulp because some thugs were trying to get ahold of their guns really makes it safer for you not to own guns here. The guy who was shot had to carry a colostomy bag for months. Besides, the law is being discussed by a congress that is composed of chavistas and opposition alike.

And for the government taking money from the rich, I would really like to see where you got that from? I haven't seen that happening even once.

I'm sorry that you think that everybody that supports the government here is receiving grants and cannot be an independent thinker. But after being burned by extreme capitalism before Chavez came to power, it is hard for me to support the other guys. It's hard for you to understand what we went through but I just wrote to let you know that it's not only about poor people or communists or whatnot. More about rights and trying to enjoy a little bit more equality, which I believe is more visibly in the US than it ever was in Venezuela.

Re: Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[phantomfive]

You seem to be saying that elections make Venezuela a free democracy. That is not true. Remember, the Soviet Union had fair elections as well.

All that doesn't matter if you don't have freedom of speech. The Soviets controlled the information flow, so normal citizens had trouble knowing what was going on. Of course if you watch Chavez's show you're going to think he's doing alright. Venezuela doesn't have freedom of the press, so you don't even know what is wrong with your country. At least with this Snowden thing, they are only going after Snowden; no one is going after the reporters who reported on it.

Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[isorox]

very, very narrow definition in the US

So narrow that not even a serving military officer selling US made weapons to a group that had killed over a hundred US marines less than a year previously (Hezbolla), via a declared enemy of the United States (Iran), doesn't count as treason.

Ahh yes

Stan: In the 80s there was Cold War drama.

We fought the Commies inside Nicaragua.

Our friends were the Contras. Freedom was their mantra.

So we sent them lots of money for guns and landmines.

But Congress stopped the Contra money flow

Just 'cause they moved a teeny bit of blow.

But then a hero came forth.

His name was Oliver North.

He and Reagan went around the sissy Congress.

OLLIE NORTH! OLLIE NORTH!

Stan (speaking): You see, North secretly sold missiles to a harmless country called Iran who would always be a grateful ally. Then he gave the profits to the Contras. Genius!

Stan: But the sales were uncovered by the press.

Contras: Awwww.

Press: He he.

Stan: Reagan and North began to stress.

Reagan: Well...

North: Nyaay!

Stan: 'Cause what they did was technically high treason! (But it was totally justified.)

Stan: North volunteered to take the blame,

to save Reagan from prison rape shame.

The truth he did bury with his hot secretary.

Thanks to her shredder, he got off totally scot-free!

OLLIE NORTH! OLLIE NORTH!

He's a soldier!

And a hero!

And a novelist!

And now he's on Fox News!

Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[SuricouRaven]

Not true. As a form of extreme libertarian, objectivists are strongly opposed to government spying on everyone.

They have no objection to corporations spying on everyone though - and would oppose any measure to stop corporations doing so as an unjust interference in commerce.

Objectivism just exchanges government oppression for corporate oppression.

Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[Anonymous Coward]

Why not?

I mean, we legally can't extradite him to the USA.

Unless the prisons in the US are upgraded to meet the minimum requirements stipulated in our human rights laws, we are prohibited from extraditing him on any charge, regardless of citizenship.

Further, if the charges are secret, or the penalties exceed a certain maximum, or the death penalty is possible (even theoretically), we again are prohibited from extraditing.

In short, unless the US becomes a decent place to live, we cannot extradite, and we have measures in place to reduce the risk of "unilateral extradition" or whatever the current term for kidnapping on foreign soil is.

That some of our politicians would *like* to extradite is quite irrelevant. Rule of law is still, largely, in effect here. And breaches of *our* constitution are frowned on. The existence of a free press tends to help make sure such things get exposed and get consequences.

I, for one, would like to welcome our new whistleblowing visitors.

Sadly, he's going to Finland instead. Or so I hear. ;-)

Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[riondluz]

not an empire colapsing as much as transforming itself to preserve the 'empire builders'.

What people posting here no /. and elsewhere may be relevant and on-topic to the story-du-jour, what few are talking about is what is common knowledge to all but the 'throng'.

One person here posted, paraphrasing, "there is but one party but it goes by two names." Others have noted the dissolution of "Left-v-Right, D-v-R, .... as much as Up-v-Down, Haves-v-NoHaves....

This is closer to the truth in America, the utter incompetance, corruption, greed of 'generalship' in trying to adjust to global competition and ease out of commitments made that can no longer be kept.

America is not 1 nation or 1 people or 1 anything anymore. It is 300+ million souls fending for themselves; business as usual.

Our country is transforming itself into investor-class vs. a rabble whose labors are no longer needed or appreciated or valued; who are considered a burden by those who are self-deluded into believing they are entitled to what they have.

All this spying, this heavy-handed rethoric (sic), the grandstanding of institutionalists and sock-puppets and pundits is in fear of retribution of the dis-enfranchised masses waking up to this privatized scalping by big .gov and .biz

It's about getting a seat on the lifeboats before the ship of State goes down.

Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba

[dbIII]

Another funny bit is some of that money got diverted a bit into a new car and house airconditioning system for North. But what's a bit of embezzlement on top of treason?

Arrived in Moscow...left with Venezuelan diplomat

[bradrum]

According to Interfax.

God speed. Enjoy the hot Venezuelan women. There is no justice for you in the US...not anymore.

How will NSA ever find him?

[retroworks]

He's suely lost the trail by announcing Iceland, Cuba and Venezuela as destinations, as good as gone.

Re:How will NSA ever find him?

[Dins]

Yeah, I fully expect him to end up anywhere but places that have already been mentioned.

Re:How will NSA ever find him?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, I fully expect him to end up anywhere but places that have already been mentioned.

I'd stay in Moscow.

Re:How will NSA ever find him?

[JustOK]

He's going to DisneyWorld

Re:How will NSA ever find him?

[Anonymous Coward]

He's going to wind up somewhere most unpleasant, in the hands of some very nasty people.

Once they get their hands on him, death will be his only release, come it sooner or come it later.

We live in a pretty fucked-up world, and none of us are as safe as we imagine ourselves to be.

Re:How will NSA ever find him?

[hotdiggity]

Don't call him suely!

Re:Run coward run!!!!!

[Dins]

He's anything but a coward. A coward would have kept his mouth shut.

Risk of KGB Interrogation?

[Anonymous Coward]

By going to Moscow he would seem to risk interrogation by the KGB (or whatever the agency is currently called).

Re:Risk of KGB Interrogation?

[elucido]

How do we know he isn't a spy now that he went to Moscow?

Re:Risk of KGB Interrogation?

[Greyfox]

He worked for the NSA. We know he's a spy :-P

Re: Risk of KGB Interrogation?

[Anonymous Coward]

First Chinese spy, then Russian spy. What next? Have you made up your mind yet?

Re:Risk of KGB Interrogation?

[elucido]

He worked for the NSA. We know he's a spy :-P

Does that make it treason if he

Re:Risk of KGB Interrogation?

[Greyfox]

I think you accidentally

why no outcry in the US?

[Anonymous Coward]

Given that his espionage charges and leaning on HK for extradition was all over the US news, why has there been very little popular outrage outside of tiny niche communities like slashdot? Why are there no mass cries to try the senators responsible for the spying program on charges of treason? Where are the million-man marches against the surveillance society that it is no longer possible to pretend we haven't become?

We used to hold ourselves as better than the East Germans and the Soviets for just this reason: we lived in a society free from mass government surveillance, with only special cases allowed based on search warrants obtained with reasonable suspicion. We did not surveil our population as a whole. Seriously, we will let ourselves fall into that place with barely a peep?

What happened to us?

Re:why no outcry in the US?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think two things happened, in this order:

1. We stopped feeling as though we had any power to reign in government and corporate corruption.
2. We stopped caring.

Re:why no outcry in the US?

[BitZtream]

Because most normal, sane, people aren't wacko nutjobs who OMG 1984 all the time like the majority of slashdot who read some book and think they see it in everything that the government does, all the while entirely missing the point of the book.

Re:why no outcry in the US?

[Black Dragon]

I think two things happened, in this order:

1. We stopped feeling as though we had any power to reign in government and corporate corruption.
2. We stopped caring.

And it is precisely because of the above attitudes that the US is rapidly turning into the very same type of police state that people in other countries risk their lives to escape. Also, I notice that the common denominator which played a major part in kicking off the Tunisian and Egyptian revolutions - as well as the collapse of the East Block back in the day - is a collapsing economy. Most folks in the US are still relatively well off, so as long as they feel comfortable they will continue to do nothing.

Enough

[chowdahhead]

The damage has been done. Chasing him down and prosecuting him is just a waste of taxpayer resources, and likely won't prevent any more leaks anyway. The self-aggrandizing NSA hypocrites need to salvage their egos and move on.

Re:Enough

[BitZtream]

By that logic, we shouldn't have prisons, jails, or laws in general, since they address the issue after the fact.

Re:Run coward run!!!!!

[Zimluura]

uhh, i think the fact that he hasn't been caught yet (and disappeared) suggests he knew exactly how bad the backlash would be. he knew enough that he could plan for it.

he did not take the path of least resistance here. if he were a coward, he wouldn't have leaked the info in the first place. knowing what he knew, and not doing anything about it, is probably what he saw as cowardly.

Re:Run coward run!!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Hope this treasonous coward gets extradited and spends the rest of his miserable life in jail. I'm not a fan of the NSA doing all of this, but anyone who didn't know it's been going on is a moron.

You realise you're calling the vast majority of your fellow citizens morons.

Re:Run coward run!!!!!

[DarkOx]

Its the folks still working at NSA who should be rotting in jail. What they have been doing is illegal. Personally I think anyone still there should be treated as a collaborator. We didn't accept "just following orders" as an excuse after WWII, it would be good for the nation if we locked away everyone at NSA doing anything above sweeping the floors.

How strange.

[Darkness404]

How strange it is that Russia has become the bastion of human rights and the right to expose corruption. 30 years ago you'd be laughed out of a room if you'd suggest that 30 years later people would be fleeing the US for Russia and China for political freedoms and economic freedoms.

Times have sure changed.

Re:How strange.

[DarkOx]

How strange it is that Russia has become the bastion of human rights and the right to expose corruption.

I don't know what news you have been ready but this is hardly the case. The Russian government cracks down hard on anyone who does anything to embarrass it. If Snodew was a Russion who had leaked KGB info they'd go every bit as hard on him as are government has; and then not even consider stopping there.

No they see this as an opportunity to score diplomatic leverage of some kind, or maybe its just an ego thing for Putin to "Stick it to the man" who knows; in any case this is just an enemy of my enemy is a friend situation, nothing especially virtuous on the part of the Russians. Rainbows and moon beams have not suddenly replaced the usual shit from Vladamir's ass.

Re:How strange.

[Nidi62]

How strange it is that Russia has become the bastion of human rights and the right to expose corruption.

Tell that to Pussy Riot. I'm sure that will comfort them while they are either imprisoned in Russia or living elsewhere to avoid prosecution in Russia.

Re:How strange.

[simonbp]

Wait, wait? How is Russia "a bastion of human rights"? Ever tried being supporting an opposition party there?

And what does this have to do with human rights? A US Government employee broke the law and shared information he wasn't supposed to. And now he's an attention whore traveling to world to keep his name in the news. If he really cared that it was "the right thing to do" he would turned himself in the day he released to keep the storm on PRISIM, not himself.

Re:How strange.

[Anonymous Coward]

How strange it is that Russia has become the bastion of human rights and the right to expose corruption

Russia does not care about human rights, they do however hate the U.S.A and idealize the Sovjet Union. A traitor to the U.S. is unlikely to be abducted there - pissing of Putin still results in complete loss of freedom or death.

Re:How strange.

[DarkOx]

So its not good enough to risk your life and freedom blowing the whistle you have to voluntarily fall on your sword before its virtuous? Wow you have some high standards.

Re:How strange.

[bmo]

A US Government employee broke the law

When a law is unjust, you break it.

If he really cared that it was "the right thing to do" he would turned himself in the day he released to keep the storm on PRISIM, not himself.

That would be suicide.

  The US government is at war with the 4'th Amendment. Patton said "The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other guy die for his." A good soldier lives to fight another day.

--
BMO

Re:How strange.

[Luckyo]

I recommend actually looking hard and who you're defending. Pussy riot girls are epic level attention whores (literally) who have shot orgy porn while pregnant to "protest" the same issue a couple of years ago, among other similar stunts (you'll find photos of the orgy if you look, video is harder to come by).

No one cared about them until they busted into church and violated right to freedom of practicing religion without idiots disturbing them in their church. Rather strange, if they were nailed for political reasons rather then their actual stated crime, surely they would have been nailed much earlier, like when they were shooting the preggo porn orgy against Putin?

There are MANY groups of people in Russia who are worth defending for protecting rights of people. Pussy riot is not one of such groups. You should instead consider people who are trying to dig into human right abuses in Chechnya, journalists who investigate shady regional and federal ties and corruption and so on.

But instead, we (Westerners) are wasting our energy and efforts on a bunch of dumb attention whores who's main accomplishment is breaking into the church and interrupting orthodox service with risque acts. And at the same time, persecution people who are actually investigating real issues goes unnoticed.

Re:How strange.

[Luckyo]

Turn himself in to the known torturers after he reveals that they have been lying to the world, their own people and breaking laws left and right?

I'm sorry, did you fall and hit your head recently?

Re:How strange.

[Nidi62]

But instead, we (Westerners) are wasting our energy and efforts on a bunch of dumb attention whores who's main accomplishment is breaking into the church and interrupting orthodox service with risque acts. And at the same time, persecution people who are actually investigating real issues goes unnoticed.

So it's ok to persecute people because they are attention whores? The US puts up with attention whores (WBC), because they still have 1st Amendment rights. Russia is not much better now than it was when it was part of the USSR, and Putin is not so slowly and definitely surely taking them back that way. Calling Russia a "bastion of human rights" like the GP did is like calling Somalia a bastion of gun control.

Re:How strange.

[ColdWetDog]

No, you fools! Russia has nothing to do with this. He's just IN TRANSIT. He is just wandering through an airport. In the civilized world, that is international territory for the purposes of free transit. He's not 'visiting' Russia.

Re:How strange.

[Luckyo]

No. But it's ok to prosecute them for barging into a private church, interrupting a service and performing risque acts. In fact, they would have been prosecuted for the same acts in the US.

Let me give you another good example of this idiocy. The current "NGO scandal" where western media actively claims that Russian authorities are evicting an important NGO that is innocent of any wrongdoing. Interestingly, there are little if any videos of the case in western media outlets.

Russian lenta.ru on the other hand has a nice video of the event here http://lenta.ru/video/2013/06/23/zaprava/

Some pearls:
00:15. Woman in the office screaming "Aaaa, blackmail, help". The man carefully walks away saying "don't kill me, don't kill me" humorously. When camera pans to face her, she smiles, slightly embarrassed and tells cameraman "piss off".
1:32. Men and women surround and hold down the police woman guarding the window by hands. She shows exceptional patience. She clearly tolerates an older woman holding her other hand against her and telling to the camera "look I'm holding her down", and only when two women basically hold her down by hands and she repeatedly tells them to get their hands off her, she struggles to break free.
2:51. Fat middle aged woman (who claims to be the lawyer of the group) pushing into the young police officer blocking her path, then screaming "get your hands off my ass". Fun fact: both policeman's hands are visible on the video and none are on her ass.
3:48. Russian omon (special police forces) are on scene blocking the door. The man pushes the camera in their face. Omon guy asks "what are you standing here for?". Cameraman answers "I'm standing here to prevent raiding and capture". Omon guy with open sarcasm: "That is a correct thing to do. I think you're doing the right thing. Hooligans should be punished. We'll prevent everything together in a moment".
3:57. "Mayor candidate" that entered the premises earlier to talk with authorities is still inside, but he seems to be agitating the mob outside though the window. Police grabs him and throws him and his companion out. Companion screams "help, they're murdering me" as he's thrown out on the street. On the street he shouts "they were beating me". No signs of any kind of beating on him, other then him being thrown out.
4:34. Guy on camera asks the "mayor candidate": "where did they beat you"? He answers: "in the neck... and feet" (the spots where they grabbed him when they were throwing him out on camera a few moments ago).
5:13. Some high ranked white collar officials are leaving the premises. Mob chants "fascists" and some random guy goes after them screaming "this guy was beating people up". Then he starts chasing a police officer leaving the scene screaming "you were beating people" and then tries to... steal police officers hat off his head. That almost ends in a fist fight but another police officer pulls his colleague out of it as he gets his hat back
5:42. Plainclothes officers arrest the elderly man who was screaming about being beaten when he was ejected before the mayor candidate. Police officers audibly states the reason for arrest: "for provocation". Mob tries to stop the police car from leaving.
Camera switches to police officer who is apparently in a leadership position (and was seen earlier during the day watching the entire event from a vantage point about ten meters away from the mob) calmly talking on the phone while smoking: "About 40-30 people, they can throw themselves at cars... No the department people are still inside... No we threw all (demonstrators) out... Yes, let Omon stay there till morning".

Cherry on top:

0:00 "We are the owners of this property as a department of Moscow city's building ownership department. We are here to evict people from this property as they are here illegally".
0:22 Apparent head of the NGO says to the same man "so let's just sign a new lease", to which the city employee calmly answers "le

Re:How strange.

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't believe your post is geniune. Who do you work for?

Re:How strange.

[Anonymous Coward]

How strange it is that Russia has become the bastion of human rights

Who fucking mods this up. Honestly. I get that you folks hate the US, but this is pants-on-head retarded. Russia/Putin's crew kill political and media opponents. This would be like the US killing reporters who covered Snowden's leaks.

people would be fleeing the US for Russia and China for political freedoms and economic freedoms

Political and economic freedom!? You need to learn about the world a bit more. They're fleeing to these countries because they tend not to bend over to the US, nothing more.

Re:How strange.

[Anonymous Coward]

Who says that is why hes going there? It may just be a smoke screen, or just one leg on his journey into oblivion.

And even if he is going there to stay, who is to say its due to the Russians 'human rights' stance.. Its a *huge* and corrupt country, with plenty of places to hide for the right person..

Re:How strange.

[evilviper]

How strange it is that Russia has become the bastion of human rights

Maybe it would be strange if it was true in the slightest... But it's not.

Here, it's just a question of historical enemies, probably NOT having a very good working relationship or extradition treaties.

If you piss off the US, you really want to stay out of the UK, Israel, South Korea, Japan, etc. (many, many others, really, but those are the ones with the closest ties).

China is hit-or-miss. They're somewhat antagonistic to the US, but they also have very close economic ties. So I'd expect a case-by-case decision from the top, as to whether the political points are worth it.

Russia, Iran, North Korea, Cuba, and others, have few economic ties with the US to worry about, and are often diametrically opposed to US policies, and I'd expect would openly welcome anyone who made the US look bad, and might even give them a comfortable lifestyle as a minor celebrity.

Of course it goes the other way too... Piss off Russia or China, and the US is a good place to go.

Re:How strange.

[BitZtream]

Bastion of human rights? WTF?

He doesn't have any knowledge they don't already have. Hell, he doesn't have any knowledge I didn't already have. No one cares about him for anything other than political posturing. Once he's out of the news, his body will show up in a ditch.

Re:How strange.

[BitZtream]

That would be suicide.

Right, because the USG assassinates obnoxious little pricks who leak secrets ... except Assange is still alive and Manning is still breathing despite the fact that many prisoners in his prison would love to rip his head off and shit down his throat.

If the NSA wanted him dead, he would be.

Re:How strange.

[dbIII]

Here's another ridiculously contrived one - protesters dressing up as Indians and throw crates of tea in the water. It sounds even more stupid than the Pussy Riot thing but just like that it was theatre designed to make a point.

Re:How strange.

[Luckyo]

No, they actually make a point there, without harming anyone. Pussy riot acts actively harmed innocent people around them, which is why they got put in prison. It's not theater when it's vandalism.

And once again: defend those who actually work on human rights. Reporters, investigators, auditors. Not attention whores who break into churches or shoot preggo porn orgies. Former are actually useful for improving situation. Latter do nothing to help and often actively harm both innocent with their act, and their proposed goal by associating with it.

Re:How strange.

[shutdown -p now]

They wouldn't get 2 years in prison for doing that kind of thing in US, or any other sane country.

Indeed, some guys did something very similar in Finland shortly after. IIRC they ended up doing some community service.

Re:How strange.

[shutdown -p now]

How strange it is that Russia has become the bastion of human rights and the right to expose corruption.

As a Russian living in US, I can assure you that Russia is nowhere near a "bastion of human rights" or "the right to expose corruption" - certainly lagging much behind the US on both counts. The sole reason why they're helping Snowden is because his exposure hurts US. If he tried the same stunt against the Russian government, he'd find himself rotting in some unnamed hole pretty quick, along with any journalist who'd try to report on it.

Re:How strange.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not that hard to find, and it is hot! They have my support.

Re:How strange.

[bmo]

By your wording,it's obvious that you fellate the NSA.

Bye.

--
BMO

Re:How strange.

[Anonymous Coward]

Tell Aaron Swartz how fair the US is for very very minor criminal acts.

Re:How strange.

[thoth]

How strange it is that Russia has become the bastion of human rights and the right to expose corruption.

Right... I'm sure Litvinenko would agree, he being poisoned by Polonium and all, for speaking out against corruption.

Re:How strange.

[Anonymous Coward]

WBC have the elementary good sense to protest outside places. Pussy Riot did it inside the cathedral.

If the WBC ever got so careless, I would expect to see them jailed faster than you could sneeze.

Re:How strange.

[Anonymous Coward]

You should probably graduate middle school before engaging in discussions with adults, kid.

Re:How strange.

[mjwx]

How strange it is that Russia has become the bastion of human rights and the right to expose corruption. 30 years ago you'd be laughed out of a room if you'd suggest that 30 years later people would be fleeing the US for Russia and China for political freedoms and economic freedoms.

Times have sure changed.

He hasn't headed there for political freedom, he's headed there for political asylum.

A very different concept. He cant go back to his own country because they'll jail him for political reasons.

Re:How strange.

[Anonymous Coward]

VERY true.

Re:How strange.

[dbIII]

Stealing tea and destroying it is not vandalism?

Re:How strange.

[phantomfive]

And yet Russia can still stop him. Don't believe they won't if they so desire.

Re:How strange.

[Luckyo]

That would actually be theft rather than vandalism. As you provided no information on how tea was acquired, I assumed they bought it.

Re:How strange.

[Luckyo]

US is far from sane in terms of criminology. There's a reason why you have the highest incarceration rates in the world.

Re:How strange.

[Luckyo]

I imagine it's HARD earned.

Re: How strange.

[shutdown -p now]

I am Russian, FYI.

Re:How strange.

[FilatovEV]

Not that we _help_ Snowden... He is not welcomed and not granted an asylum. Also, Putin has publicly said that there's nothing news-worthy in Snowden's revelations, because it's the way all secret agencies in all countries work.

I find it strange that it comes down to the discussion of whether Russia is a "bastion of human rights"... Nobody's claiming that in Russia. We know our weaknesses and we work on them.

Re: How strange.

[Luckyo]

Noted. I apologize for assuming too much from your previous message.

Re:How strange.

[dj_super_dude]

First up, I'm not an American or a Russian and this is pure speculation..... :) The image of a person on the inside who becomes outraged with 'the system' and enlightens the rest of the affected populous (kinda sounds like - "it's people... you're eating people!") is one that conjures a romantic image of a 'good' person. To most the idea of being spied on without your knowledge or even a good cause is abhorrent, but irrespective of what it was that was leaked/whistleblown/shut down it does make a good story, almost worthy of or even similar to movies made of super spies and jaded heroes of the people. I have no reason to suspect that Mr Snowden is anything but a good man who felt he had to act, and I'm certainly not trying to suggest otherwise.

Now, I was just pondering your post and it made me think of the contrast to the Cold War days - "CIA vs KGB" and the whole espionage/intelligence gathering and how information can be used. Propaganda is certainly nothing new, but let's say a government did have a spy/agent/whateveryacallit inside the government gathering intelligence. Of course locations of Armies and military operations, movements of VIPs etc are always going to be intelligence gold, but what if you wanted to not just gather information but wage an information war. I'm sure in conjunction with cyber attacks and strategic stock or other economic trading a government sized entity could do a country a serious amount of damage without firing a shot.
I'm sure it's not a new idea by any stretch, just an observation of the way information and the media age we live in can be used as a weapon.

Re:How strange.

[dbIII]

Wow - an uptight American that not heard of the Boston Tea Party?

Re:How strange.

[Luckyo]

Nope. Of course I'm not american. Nor uptight.

Re:How strange.

[dbIII]

The latter is most definitely true with your horror about nudity in a protest, which is why I assumed you were from the USA.

You don't seem to get it - protests, whether we like it or not, are very often about generating outrage and are always about seeking attention. The "tea party" protest that preceded the North American revolution was probably far more of a riot than what you've described above and most certainly involved destruction of a great deal more property.

It's also a bit much suggesting these protesters are acting in an extreme way when the situation they are protesting involves things up to and including an annoying journalist murdered as a birthday present for Putin last year. It's not as if holding up a sign in a park and singing is going to get enough people to pay attention. So their show contains a lot of lies - big deal - it's very obviously a show to draw attention to real events instead of being the event itself.

Re:How strange.

[Luckyo]

My... horror?

I think it's fucking stupid to shoot preggo porn as a political protest unless you want the message to be lost in the act itself. I also think it's fucking stupid to interrupt a church service with a dumb dance act for the same reasons. Essentially being an attention whore using the cause to gain attention and damaging the cause in the process.

Where "this is just dumb" went into "horror" in your mind, I cannot fathom.

Re:How strange.

[dbIII]

As with the Boston Tea Party example, a lot of protests that get attention are fucking stupid. Dressing up as Indians and throwing boxes of tea in the water? Fucking stupid. But it got attention and it worked.
Some of Ghandi's stuff was not only stupid but close to suicide. Would it have attracted attention otherwise and caused change?

Re:How strange.

[ItzRobZ]

Well if someone was hunting you, why wouldn't you go to a place that hated that person? Snodew exposed the US and went to a place where he'd least likely be handed back to the US.

Re:How strange.

[Luckyo]

No, that is demonstrative. There is a difference between having a message in your act, and having an act that has no message whatsoever, just designed to be an asshole enough to draw attention.

There is a reason why organisations like FEMEN, while drawing a lot of attention typically harm rather then advance causes they champion, and are usually rejected not only by the public and authorities, but even by real activists championing the cause.

Re:How strange.

[dbIII]

You keep missing the point. The tea had very little to do with the situation that the protest was about - Americans didn't care much about expensive tea they cared about having little say in how the colonies they lived in were run. The protest was all about getting attention and not about tea, it was completely about being enough of an asshole to draw attention.
Despotic governments are very good at dealing with quiet reasonable protests as if they never happened. Ghandi, Mandela and a lot of other successful protest organisers that triggered or delivered change spent a lot of time in prison for doing things that are not quiet and reasonable. I can see why these woman would do what they are doing even if it's stupid and disgusting - to an extent it has worked because it's international news and it tarnishes Putin's reputation for those that have not heard about the assassinations.

Re:How strange.

[Luckyo]

I can see that we will not reach agreement on this because you blindly refuse to see the difference between an attention whore and an activist working for the cause. This in spite of an obvious difference: former prioritizes the means, latter prioritizes the cause.

Pussy riot is former. All of the people you listed are latter. Comparing them is an open insult to all the people you listed.

Re:How strange.

[dbIII]

Insult? No, just pointing out that outrageous acts have often been used to draw attention to outrages with some very close parallels. It can be very difficult or impossible to see the difference and in some cases purely self-centred attention seekers have delivered on the side of freedom because it just happened to be to the benefit of more people than themselves. Ask people in the US today why the Tea Partiers dressed up as Indians and they'll try to avoid the issue.

Anyway, in this case thanks to the outrageous stunt you've described a lot more people in the west know more about Putin than was previously the case, and that may have some affect on his actions if he tries to avoid more bad international press.

Re:How strange.

[Luckyo]

An extreme insult at that. You're comparing people who are activists for the cause, taking action to promote the cause to attention whores, taking action and claiming to be related to a cause to promote themselves.

Former are useful to the cause. Latter are severely harmful. Why is it surprising that vast majority of activist organisations distance themselves from attention whore style activism (take a look at FEMEN for a very good example of this: most feminist organizations and in fact any activist organizations distance themselves from FEMEN whenever these attention whore grab yet another cause to promote themselves with).

You're essentially comparing a symbiote to a parasite. Why is it surprising that symbiote would be insulted by the comparison?

Re:How strange.

[dbIII]

I'm sorry but I disagree and think you are naive about how grubby politics is. We tend to wash the winners clean and forget what they did on the way there.

Re:How strange.

[Luckyo]

And I think you're naive about activism and have never actually done any.

Re:How strange.

[dbIII]

I have never done any but have seen some, and it's not a pretty sight at all. Successful activists are not the sort of people you want to have a beer with even if you agree with all their policies.

Re:How strange.

[Luckyo]

Again, it sounds like you have never seen any activists. It sounds like you saw some parasites/attention whores however and mistook them for activists.

Re:How strange.

[dbIII]

Vice versa :) Someday you'll notice that very little of politics is noble and it attracts a lot of utter bastards to even the best of causes.

Re:How strange.

[dbIII]

Do you really think these women even rate on the sleaze scale compared with JFK, Clinton, Belescone, Wolfawitz or Strauss-Kahn? Politics is very sleazy.

Re:How strange.

[Luckyo]

I would actually argue that attention whores are good in politics, because they tend to find attention being the reward of its own. That results in people like Chavez, who as long as they get attention are willing to push themselves massively in favour of their own people.

On the other end of spectrum you have politicans like Bush, who are in it for the cause. They tend to make the worst politicians for their own people.

One could actually suggest that requirements for being a good activist (pushing cause though no matter the consequences to the people) and requirements for being a good politician (attention whoring making pleasing the people attractive to politician) are exact opposites.

Re:How strange.

[dbIII]

Whatever either of us like or not you don't hear of an old ladies knitting society having a quiet protest indoors - it's the prickly and obnoxious characters who annoy everyone that tend to get in the way of despots instead.

Re:How strange.

[Luckyo]

That is just patently false. Essentially the entire "human rights" as well as "women's rights" got pushed by "old ladies knitting society". Attention whores got the attention of the media, but it's the quiet housewives that did the actual political lifting, pressuring their husbands in high places of the society to adapt the change.

Re:How strange.

[dbIII]

I'm curious now. How old are you?

Re:How strange.

[Luckyo]

Studying history has an age requirement?

I'm in my thirties.

Re:How strange.

[dbIII]

No I just wondered if you are naive due to being a teenager not seeing much of the world or if there were other reasons. Anyway, just consider me an old cynic that sees far worse than pussy riot just about anywhere I look.

International No-Fly list

[Anonymous Coward]

Then he's grounded.

He is not entering Russia.

[csumpi]

From NYT:

"Russia’s Interfax news service, citing a “person familiar with the situation,” reported that Mr. Snowden would remain in transit at an airport in Moscow for “several hours” pending an onward flight to Cuba, and would therefore not formally cross the Russian border or be subject to detention."

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Anonymous Coward]

You are deluded if you think Russia vs United States, Russia is the 'good guys'. In fact, I don't consider the US to be 'good guys', but compared to Russia they appear to be. Putin orders hits on reports who write unfavourable articles on him, more than once, and its fairly widely accepted in Russia. End of story.

The US and all its NSA bullshit isn't quite comparable to the threat of death for speaking out, if so all of the reporters who've covered Snowden would be fearing for their lives.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Anonymous Coward]

Putin orders hits on reports who write unfavourable articles on him ...

Obama orders drone attacks on teenage boys and other civilian noncombattants.

Cuba's an interesting choice; spitting (literally!) distance from Gitmo. Ha haaa!

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Anonymous Coward]

No one on this planet (except perhaps a dwindling minority of US citizens and people of low intelligence in the Anglo-Saxon countries) thinks of the United States as the "good guys" any more.

Congratulations! We almost have the trifecta of traditional European anti-Americanism, because whether it was Bismarck, Hitler, or Marx, that's what they could all agree on. The only thing that's missing from your tirade is a bit of anti-Semitism thrown in.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[smash]

The US does just as bad as Russia does, it's just that your western media spin it differently. Read/watch Russian media as well and get both viewpoints. If you assume that "only the bad guys use propaganda" then you are kidding yourself.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[icebraining]

I'm sorry; I tried to follow your advice by reading the Pravda (English version; I can't read Russian), but I couldn't keep a straight face:

(...) Obama nervously looked over his notes as Putin spoke clearly from his memory and intelligence. At meetings end Obama then went on to try and slap a handshake. It was met with President Putin's stone hand which withered Obama's smile away. Putin's firm grip declared who's top dog in this world.

And this wasn't in the Opinions section!

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[icebraining]

Yeah, and Hitler was a vegetarian, therefore vegetarians are genocidal maniacs!

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[dreamchaser]

Your main mistake is assuming that there are any 'good guys' at all. There are not. All countries act to one degree or another to further their own interests. The fiction that there are 'good' and 'bad' countries is just that, a fiction.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Anonymous Coward]

Try telling that to Michael Hastings.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[jkflying]

Yeah, and Hitler was a vegetarian, therefore vegetarians are vegecidal maniacs!

FTFY

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[zidium]

It is **widely** known that Obama is largely incapable of speaking without either notes or a teleprompter. Just last month, he had to prematurely end a speech, after only 30 seconds, because he had neither available.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[1s44c]

No one on this planet (except perhaps a dwindling minority of US citizens and people of low intelligence in the Anglo-Saxon countries) thinks of the United States as the "good guys" any more. The best we can hope for is a balance of power by keeping all the bullies competing with each other.

This is the old idea of MAD and the balance of power. If one country gets too powerful it will exploit, or destroy, the others. Guess what? One country did become too powerful and the inevitable happened.

There never really were any "good guys" though, just self-interested guys who had good reasons to try to get along peacefully.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Anonymous Coward]

You could have owned europe, the 80s and early 90s every european kid wanted to be american. you fucked it up yourself

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Anonymous Coward]

At least he doesn't have to write shit on his hand.

Very few people can speak without notes or a teleprompter. Why is Obama a special case?

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[1s44c]

The US and all its NSA bullshit isn't quite comparable to the threat of death for speaking out, if so all of the reporters who've covered Snowden would be fearing for their lives.

Not true, all the reporters who reported that he was doing the right thing would be fearing for their lives. Most are reporting things like "I'm sure the guy had an overactive Mother Teresa gene and thought he was going to go out and save America from Americans, but in reality he was very foolish," -CNN

Russian and the US have very different methods but both ensure the free press toe the official line.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Anonymous Coward]

and Obama has a secret extra-judicial "Kill List" no difference there at all

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Anonymous Coward]

According to the video in the article it is indeed the case. Obama had notes while Putin didn't. However, this has nothing to do with the personal qualities of any of the people involved. Obama has notes because of the nature of the US administration. Any and every speech of any US official are heavily vetted. On the Russian side, Putin has instituted a clearly different governing style.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[1s44c]

I'm sorry; I tried to follow your advice by reading the Pravda (English version; I can't read Russian), but I couldn't keep a straight face:

(...) Obama nervously looked over his notes as Putin spoke clearly from his memory and intelligence. At meetings end Obama then went on to try and slap a handshake. It was met with President Putin's stone hand which withered Obama's smile away. Putin's firm grip declared who's top dog in this world.

And this wasn't in the Opinions section!

Putin is a well know fitness freak, I could imagine him crushing pen-pushing Obama's hand just to make a point. The rest sounds like a mix of patriotism and bad translation.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[lxs]

the 80s and early 90s every european kid wanted to be american.

No we didn't.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[1s44c]

No one on this planet (except perhaps a dwindling minority of US citizens and people of low intelligence in the Anglo-Saxon countries) thinks of the United States as the "good guys" any more.

Congratulations! We almost have the trifecta of traditional European anti-Americanism, because whether it was Bismarck, Hitler, or Marx, that's what they could all agree on. The only thing that's missing from your tirade is a bit of anti-Semitism thrown in.

The US never were the good guys, they were just less bad than most others. Now the US has got worse and a lot of the others have got better. The belief that people in the US are more free than people in the rest of the world no longer has any basis in fact.

Russia powned the US by offering to consider an asylum application from Snowden, a man on the run for telling the truth about US abuses.
Russia powned the US by arming the legitimate Syrian government whilst the US tried to topple them by arming terrorist extremists.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you ever seen Putin dealing with other foreign leaders? He might be a corrupt asshole, but he was KGB and he's primarily dealing with a bunch of pampered pussies that would wet themselves over the mere thought of a fist fight.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Anonymous Coward]

It just shows how brainwashed you are to think that Pravda is reputable Russian paper. I hope you do not get your news in the US from the tabloids you find at the check-out at the supermarket.

AC, as always.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[icebraining]

Regardless of the US interventionism, under what perspective is a parliament which has 68% of the seats reserved for a single party considered "legitimate"?

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[ZoobieWa]

Very few people can speak without notes or a teleprompter. Why is Obama a special case?

Very few? Remind yourself that teleprompters are a recent invention and most public speakers throughout history have spoken without them. Geez. Talk about not being able to think outside your decade.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[rochrist]

"powned'? You need to return to geek school and retake a few courses.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Anonymous Coward]

Nixon ordered a hit against a reporter too (at least one is known of).

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/39157420/ns/politics/t/nixon-plot-against-newspaper-columnist-detailed/

Bush Jr. not only ordered hits (bombings) against Al Jazeera reporters multiple times for deviating from the official story line on the US war in Iraq, his administration also imprisoned and tortured reporters for Al Jazeera. Obama has ordered hits on regular citizens, including a child who was apparently guilty of having the wrong father (his father also assassinated, seperately, by Obama administration was never charged with any crime either). And, what about Assange, who was by any reasonable definition, a journalist, and would be almost definitely be tortured and murdered if the US every got its hands on him.

I heard an interview with Glen Greenwald, the reporter who was Snowden's contact at the Guardian. Greenwald is already being harassed, and is concerned of what the US might do to him. In the wake of the Snowden revelations, some senators have been making statements that reporters publishing leaked classified information are also guilty of espionage, and should be punished accordingly. One promised to enter legislation to that effect. So, it would become legal to kill reporters (capital offense) in the U.S. who expose US wrong doing.

A guy I heard speaking who was originally from the former Soviet Union, and had lived in the US for over a decade, summed it up well. "Everything the US officials said about the Soviet Union was true, and everything the Soviet officials said about the US was true. But, nothing they said about themselves was true.

The US has no moral high ground.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Lumpy]

Exactly, the initial reporters that were talking about him being a "true american hero" all have completely shut up and some have retracted their statements quickly.

Real journalism in the USA has been dead for a very long time. You do what you are told and report as expected.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Lumpy]

You sure as hell wanted out Levis and our T-shirts. I traded my clothes in 1988 for at least $10,000 worth of fine clothing in Italy and Germany. All of you desperately wanted to dress like americans to the point that you would pay $150US (1988 money) for a single pair of jeans.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly. It seems to me that the World War II campaign against fascism failed. Militarily it seemed like a victory for the "good guys", which included China, Russia, and the U.S. Now all three of these are surveillance states controlled by an elite that makes decisions with no regard to morality and instead to accumulate greater wealth for their cronies both domestically and internationally.
I don't even know who the good guys are... Europe is relatively free I suppose but it has its share of problems and in large part follows the U.S.'s lead.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[SerpentMage]

I am going to call Bullshit here! For starters I am not going to be hiding behind an anonymous coward. Secondly I don't hate Americans, I rather like Americans. I like the American ideals and how people want to do things. What I dislike are parts of the American government.

Now to get to the scoop. You don't have a threat of death for speaking out? Really, how about we ask this fellow:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/18/AR2006051802107.html

""Everyone knows that Mr. al-Masri was a mistaken victim of the rendition program. He is now a victim of the misuse of the state-secrets privilege." "

So the CIA did an oopsie, hurt this fellow, detained him, and tortured him. They did this by "accident" and when this guy asks for his rights the American government says, "oopsie no can do, state secret you know." Do you know which country does this? Oh yeah RUSSIA! While you might say at least this guy is alive, well how about those that are not alive? Do we hear their story?

Again I am not critiquing Americans and America as I have many American friends, have lived there and like it there. What I am critiquing is that there are parts of the American government that since 9/11 have gotten a blank cheque to do whatever they feel is right regardless of the law. America as an ideal stands for freedom, justice and being able to pursue without being persecuted. This is a good thing, and something that all humanity should strive for. But these other programs are just overreaching IMO.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[letherial]

ya, before teleprompter they used paper.

You know when your this childish, your not helping

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[SerpentMage]

ehhh ok not you. Agreed... However, the remainder yeah! Seriously the 80's and early 90's were very different. Here is a telling stat, in Germany George W Bush is more popular than Obama! Lest I remind you, Bush was not popular! Sorta says it all. The last president that did a good job for America in terms of the world view was Clinton.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Anonymous Coward]

As a UK teen in the 80s that is bollocks. We had properly imported jeans, and we didn't pay that much for them. And wearing jeans wasn't about "being american".

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Anonymous Coward]

Pravda is a tabloid shit paper and have been since it was bought by whoever it was after the fall of the Soviet union. Why don't you compare it to the numerous ludicrously "patriotic" US "news" "sources"?
 

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Anonymous Coward]

Pravda is not good representation of Russian media. Look more. But then, in France I've seen the newspapers quote the National Enquirer as a legitimate source.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Anonymous Coward]

Neat trick!

Here lemme try

"We're proud of our president. Americans love having a guy as president, a guy who has a little swagger, who's physical, who's not a complicated guy like [former President Bill] Clinton or even like [former Democratic presidential candidates Michael] Dukakis or [Walter] Mondale, all those guys, [George] McGovern. They want a guy who's president. Women like a guy who's president. Check it out. The women like this war. I think we like having a hero as our president. It's simple. We're not like the Brits. We don't want an indoor prime minister type, or the Danes or the Dutch or the Italians, or a [Russian Federation President Vladimir] Putin. Can you imagine Putin getting elected here? We want a guy as president."
-- Chris Matthews

I can see where this might get a bit tedious...cutting and pasting examples of media fawning over power.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[amaurea]

But be wary in general not to make the opposite mistake too: Just because the world is not black and white doesn't mean that everything is exactly #808080 either.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Maudib]

Dude its not a POV thing. The U.S. government does not assassinate reporters, or CIA leakers. Putin routinely jails his critics.

The U.S. is headed in a very bad direction on these issues, but the gulf between them and Russia is still quite large.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Maudib]

Pravda is about equivalent to The Enquirer. Its a tabloid, and its quite funny, but its not journalism.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Maudib]

Of foreign combatants. Not domesting journalists. Big difference.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[osu-neko]

You are deluded if you think Russia vs United States, Russia is the 'good guys'. In fact, I don't consider the US to be 'good guys'...

There are no "good guys". Well, actually, there are "good guys", but none of them get elected, or manage to climb to power in places where they use other means of gaining power.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Chrisq]

You sure as hell wanted out Levis and our T-shirts. I traded my clothes in 1988 for at least $10,000 worth of fine clothing in Italy and Germany. All of you desperately wanted to dress like americans to the point that you would pay $150US (1988 money) for a single pair of jeans.

Yes, you could get Jeans at a reasonable price even in the early 80s when I was at Uni

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[osu-neko]

To be fair, those of us still calling him a hero aren't in fear of our lives. We simply have zero change of being published or heard in any major media. We don't have death squads in the US because we don't need them. Our methods of censorship are so effective, we have nothing to fear from the dissidents. We happy to let them live and be ignored.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[thomasw_lrd]

The US has 100% of the seats in parliament reserved for one party. I think you're confusion is over the fact that that party goes by two different names.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[osu-neko]

s/change/chance/
(Silly mistake -- "change" we don't receive in.)

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Angeret]

Are you sure you didn't mean to say that your manufacturers wanted us to believe we wanted to dress like Americans? I got so sick of fucking pushy advertising even as far back as that that I ignored it all. Personally I wouldn't pay UKP15 for jeans (and I haven't in over 30 years because I haven't had a pair of jeans in over 30 years), let alone $150.

And what's so special about overseas sweatshop labour made US clothing that makes anybody else's overseas sweatshop labour made clothing of lesser value?

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[1s44c]

"powned'? You need to return to geek school and retake a few courses.

Here is a hint:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=powned

Start at number 3.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[1s44c]

Regardless of the US interventionism, under what perspective is a parliament which has 68% of the seats reserved for a single party considered "legitimate"?

They don't do things the same way as the US two party but really one party system. That doesn't make it right to fund and arm criminal groups to destroy the country.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[arth1]

ya, before teleprompter they used paper.

and it's well known that Moses couldn't speak without stone tablets...

No, really, it was expected of orators that they be able to speak without notes. That doesn't imply that a great orator necessarily is a great statesman. But we all remember someone recently who couldn't make a coherent speech even with notes and teleprompters.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[icebraining]

I don't get my news in the US from the tabloids, because I don't get my news in the US at all. In fact, I've never been to the US.

As for considering Pravda a reputable Russian paper, that's your invention. I actually assumed it was a governmental mouthpiece. But since the point was finding a counterpoint to the western media, I thought it would be a good starting place.

That said, I did expect something closer to Avante! (our national Communist Party newspaper) and not a full-on parody of itself.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[icebraining]

Because I'm not from the US?

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[mendax]

As far as we know, you mean. What about Michael Hastings, the journalist who blew the whistle on General McChrystal? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Hastings_(journalist)

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Skuld-Chan]

Look up rendition - the CIA might as well be assassinating critics.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[icebraining]

Not confused. Where I live, we have both the Communist Party and the Christian Democratic Party - besides three others, more or less in between - in Parliament.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Mashiki]

Dude its not a POV thing. The U.S. government does not assassinate reporters, or CIA leakers.

Nah, they just send the DOJ, IRS, EPA, ATF and so on after political critics, and harass them until they give up their little "view point." Or did you skip over the recent and on-going issue with the Obama administration targeting tea party groups and throwing every letter agency they can at them.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[icebraining]

No, nor did I say it did, but that's irrelevant to the question. The US interventionism doesn't magically give them legitimacy either.

And the fact that the US is no beacon of democratic choice either is, again, not a factor of legitimacy for the Syrian government either. There are decent parliamentary systems in the world, but the Syrian one is more a facade than anything else.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Anonymous Coward]

Comments on childishness from someone who doesn't (or is unable to) use proper grammar or punctuation... Typical.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[St.Creed]

And if real journalism isn't dead, someone is darn sure trying to make it so: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2346744/Journalist-Michael-Hastings-told-friends-needed-radar-just-hours-died-fiery-car-crash.html

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Paperweight]

So your European clothes were worth $10,000 back in the US? Who wanted to dress like who?

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[nbauman]

Too bad. Pravda used to be a pretty good newspaper under Gorbachev.

Now it sounds like the Wall Street Journal under Murdoch.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/14/business/media/14carr.html

Under Murdoch, Tilting Rightward at The Journal
By DAVID CARR
Published: December 13, 2009

The pro-business, antigovernment shift in the news pages has broken into plain view in the last year. On Aug. 12, a fairly straight down the middle front page article on President Obama’s management style ended up with the provocative headline, “A President as Micromanager: How Much Detail Is Enough?” The original article included a contrast between President Jimmy Carter’s tendency to go deep in the weeds of every issue with President George W. Bush’s predilection for minimal involvement, according to someone who saw the draft. By the time the article ran, it included only the swipe at Mr. Carter.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[thomasw_lrd]

Ok i thought you might think the democratic and republican parties were actually different when they are actually really the same.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[DarkOx]

Not an opinion its well corroborated that Obama is an empty suit. Good at delivering scripted speeches you bet, but take away his teleprompter....

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, and Hitler was a vegetarian, therefore vegetarians are genocidal maniacs!

Exactly, you hit the nail on the head, By eating only vegetables, Hitler caused a murder imbalance within himself, the concentration camps fixed that imbalance nicely.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[WGFCrafty]

Arming them may backfire, but legitimate governments cease being legitimate when they shoot peaceful protesters in the streets. 2.4 years ago there was no armed insurrection, just the poor and disenfranchised looking for change, and not the type you put in your pockets.

The legitimate government you speak of showed them the glint of light from their bayonets and the muzzle flash from their soviet built arms. You wouldn't happen to be employed by the same jolly bunch of guys?

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[gnuASM]

citing a “person familiar with the situation,” ... Mr. Snowden would remain in transit at an airport in Moscow for “several hours” pending an onward flight to Cuba

In other words, he's heading straight for Gitmo?

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Anonymous Coward]

And if you think the US government doesn't put out hits or disappear people all of the time, then YOU are deluded.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Anonymous Coward]

What about his childish and his not helping? Oh, I think you meant "you're" instead of "your", but your obvious lack of education has gotten in the way.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Anonymous Coward]

In the west, they have "more refined" methods. Smear campaign until suicide is the favourite one.

Empires are build on human skeletons, and the Anglosaxon empire is not at all an exception.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe he should stop reading 500 dirty-underwear NSA intercepts per day and practice normal human relations ???

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Anonymous Coward]

If Putin were as corrupt as Obama, Russia would by now be a messy shit of 423 territories of local warlords, with 2100 US drones circling overhead and shooting hellfires all day.

Putin rescued Russia from the cleptocracy of Jelzin. Is it perfect now ? Certainly not. Their trajectory is upwards while the US seems to work itself deeper into a pond of shit every day. QE, torture, secret courts, NS letters, whatnot.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Anonymous Coward]

One NATO officer once told me "we made this guy fall from his bike after he accidentally disclosed our plans". The guy was the defence minister of that nation.

So how did it work here ? They did some Mk-1 Eyeballing on a guy who did not know this tactic. The nice thing about this is "he did it himself". Nobody touched him. All they did was to stare him into the eyes a few times. Plus maybe a little message in his radio show.

When this kind of thing happens to you, better take a taxi home and take a few days sick or you will be toasted.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Anonymous Coward]

In the west there is self censorship. The businesses who run the media have vested interests in censoring content. An example of self censorship would be the informative post above scores 0.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Anonymous Coward]

Whether you get your news from the major media or the numerous minor websites it does not matter a single bit. People are more than happy to make shit up anyway. A 15 minute news cycle does not allow people to actually understand the news thery are seeing. You can harldy make an accurate assessment in under 140 characters. The context in which todays problems occur is dismissed as irrelevent by those fighting to justify their opinions and actions. The Internet age has successfully lowered the IQ of the disgtuntaled and removed any evidence of the critical thinking needed to solve today's problems. The loudest dissenters often display an appaling ignorance of history which will ensure that some of the worst times in the past happen again. Anyone in the world today is looked upon favorably and given the benefit of doubt, sometimes to a ridiculous extreme. The only requirement for being labled a "good guy" is to oppose every single thing the US does.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Anonymous Coward]

The entirety of Europe are US Vasalls. All important decisions are made in Washington, with some consultation with London.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Anonymous Coward]

Great. Educate more Wahabists in warfare so that they can later go after your skyscrapers and running events !

Saudi-Arabia, a key Ally in the Fight For General Atomics Revenue !

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[rochrist]

I prefer the primary defintion: A complete mispelling of an already mispelled word...

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Anonymous Coward]

I call BS. I was a European kid in the '80ies. There was a huge backlash against the Pershing II deployment, nobody wanted to be American: http://articles.latimes.com/1985-04-08/news/mn-18506_1_cruise-missiles
And W. Bush for sure was never popular in Germany, and not by a long shot when compared to Obama; Hell, even politicians demonstrated against Bush's visit to Berlin in 2002: http://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/obama-in-deutschland-warum-berlin-mr-president-/8355820.html

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Pseudonym]

You are deluded if you think Russia vs United States, Russia is the 'good guys'.

I'm pretty sure that the AC didn't say that.

One plausible alternative to the US being the "good guys", and it's entirely consistent with the AC's comment, is that it's dawning on people that there is no such thing as "good guys".

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[elucido]

You are deluded if you think Russia vs United States, Russia is the 'good guys'. In fact, I don't consider the US to be 'good guys', but compared to Russia they appear to be. Putin orders hits on reports who write unfavourable articles on him, more than once, and its fairly widely accepted in Russia. End of story.

The US and all its NSA bullshit isn't quite comparable to the threat of death for speaking out, if so all of the reporters who've covered Snowden would be fearing for their lives.

Snowden is now bringing his knowledge and expertise to Russia to help Putin. How else do we explain why he is in Russia?

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[psy0rz]

Today i watched rt.com (russian television) and cnn.com for hours: rt.com was constantly reporting about the NSA spying, showing interviews with assange and CEO's of crypto companies, and showing interviews with other ex-NSA employers like Benning. (who was almost laughing hysterically about how absurt the whole situation in the US was) The focus was on both snowden and the spying the US government does. They even claim that the intelligence agencies are working together with the US news media to suppress the story.

On CNN on the other hand I only hear short stories about snowden and wether or not he can be extradited. There was ZERO information about the real issue: the government collecting all the data of all the US citicens all the time.

So this time rt.com seems to be the more complete source of information and CNN seems to be biased or at least not giving a full report and critical report. However i'm sure those roles are reversed when there is some big scandal in russia.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Anonymous Coward]

mother teresa was a cunt.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[smash]

Never heard of Pravda. However, point being: Don't trust ANY single source. News isn't news unless it is confirmed by multiple independent sources, preferably in different countries and on different sides of the political fence. Otherwise it's just spin. the 'facts' that can't be confirmed independently will shake themselves out as spin in alternate directions.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Anonymous Coward]

I think that Putin definitely has a policy of letting us have all the rope we want to hang ourselves.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[smash]

Uh... guantanamo bay? Aaron Schwartz? the Dotcom raid? Bradley Manning? Julian Assange?

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[mjwx]

I'm sorry; I tried to follow your advice by reading the Pravda (English version; I can't read Russian), but I couldn't keep a straight face:

(...) Obama nervously looked over his notes as Putin spoke clearly from his memory and intelligence. At meetings end Obama then went on to try and slap a handshake. It was met with President Putin's stone hand which withered Obama's smile away. Putin's firm grip declared who's top dog in this world.

And this wasn't in the Opinions section!

So it's pretty much like Fox news... But uses bigger words.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[DigiShaman]

Putin with his legendary tiger-like prowess can only be matched by Chuck Norris! Where ever Putin is, the women swoon and the children laugh and smile with admiration.

You don't want to see Putin fight BTW. It will be like a scene from Fist of the North Star. Very bad.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[arth1]

Never heard of Pravda.

Are you for real?
Seriously, there are people who know how to read and write who haven't heard of Pravda? That's like saying you haven't heard of The Times, Der Spiegel and Le Monde. The mind boggles.

Anyhow, the GP is ignorant too (although not to this astonishing degree), not appearing to know the difference between Pravda and Komsomolskaya Pravda - in these days, two very different publications. The latter having gone through the local equivalent of Murdoch and tabloidism. It's more like Bild Zeitung or The Sun than a newspaper for actual news.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[arth1]

As for considering Pravda a reputable Russian paper, that's your invention. I actually assumed it was a governmental mouthpiece. But since the point was finding a counterpoint to the western media, I thought it would be a good starting place.

That said, I did expect something closer to Avante! (our national Communist Party newspaper) and not a full-on parody of itself.

Your confusion is, I think, based on there being two famous newspapers with "Pravda" as part of the name.

The first one, just "Pravda", is the newspaper of the Russian communist party, and used to be the main newspaper of the Soviet communist party.

The second one, Komsomolskaya Pravda, started its life as the mouthpiece of the Communist Party's youth organization, but became a "people's" newspaper. Since the fall of the Soviet Union, it has become tabloid crap, chauvinistic and populistic with some sports and badly covered boobs tossed in. I.e. much like The Sun.

Guess which one the GP quoted from?

As for the mouthpiece of the Russian government, I don't believe there is one. Back in the Soviet days, Izvestia was the government newspaper, but I believe it is defunct.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[chriscappuccio]

Well known freak, and regular show off.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Curunir_wolf]

The last president that did a good job for America in terms of the world view was Clinton.

Well Hillary has been the foreign relations person for the last five years. She's working on the same foreign policy position as her husband did when he was president. So what do you think of the "world view" that Hillary has been promoting?

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Curunir_wolf]

The US never were the good guys

Well it depends on what conflict you're talking about, doesn't it? I think in the most impactful global conflicts of the 20th century (WWI and WWII) they comported themselves quite well. Despite winning in those conflicts, they never claimed new territory for themselves, participated in plunder, and tried to end conflicts with a view toward lasting peace. They have done a lot of work and committed a lot of resources toward relieving poverty and hunger (even though those efforts have often been co-opted for promoting "US interests" - read: US Corporation interests - still, more good than bad there).

I'd say that compared to most empires that became the most powerful in the known world (Rome, the British Empire, Spanish Empire, the Aztecs, etc.), they have a comparatively good track record.

That said, I'm very dissatisfied with the US foreign policy for many years, especially the last decade or two. It's really discouraging that the vast majority of the political leadership supports the vast majority of those foreign policies...

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Anonymous Coward]

ehhh ok not you. Agreed... However, the remainder yeah! Seriously the 80's and early 90's were very different..

Oh, it must have been because the Beatles, Led Zeppelin, and Pink Floyd were such popular AMERICAN bands, all the cool kids and musicians wanted to follow them. We all know that Punk Rock, which started in AMERICA and continues to be popular to this day....

wait...

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, I forgot both Black Sabbath/Dio and Ozzy Osborne, one of the (THE?) most top selling artists throughout the latter 19th century was AMERICAN too...

oh wait...

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[triclipse]

Putin orders hits on reports who write unfavourable articles on him

You mean like Michael Hastings?

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Anonymous Coward]

the government collecting all the data of all the US citicens all the time.

That's funny, I guess there's a dedicated region on the Internet called America, and Yahoo, Apple, Microsoft, Google, etc. all confirm identities when they take on new accounts. Who knew?

What happened to "an IP is not a person"? What happened to the Internet not having borders?
The Internet is like a town dump, your old stuff is up for grabs before it even hits the ground. This is between the government and those companies that own the data when it comes down to it.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly, the initial reporters that were talking about him being a "true american hero" all have completely shut up and some have retracted their statements quickly.

Real journalism in the USA has been dead for a very long time. You do what you are told and report as expected.

It's because the information he leaked so far is not as damning as you believe.

If this were truly an issue of the government secretly overstepping constitutional bounds, why not notify congressional offices, legislative branch, and then state governors?

Because only by blabbing to the whole world can you drum this up to be as big ans you'd like. It really isn't.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[FilatovEV]

First, in the Russian press, there's no THAT clear distinction between commentaries and news.
However, the Russian press is diverse. I wonder what was your rationale for choosing the "Pravda"? (It's not even pro-gov!)
Also, I wonder why would you read the Russian press for the purposes other than getting informed about the local (regional) situation (which MIGHT be appreciably different from what is reported in the West).

I could advise you the following venues, which follow different editorial policies:
(1) lenta.ru
News/commentary website with opposition-leaning agenda.

(2) rusrep.ru
Magazine for the "middle class". Often runs interesting reports.

(3) izvestia.ru
Pro-gov-leaning newspaper. Interesting reads.

(4) mk.ru
A popular newspaper (more to the tabloid side). News/commentaries.

However, for purposes other than showing off, you would have to learn Russian to be able to read the press.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[FilatovEV]

RT is not the Russian television. It's a Russian-funded and owned American opposition television. They capitalize on the stories that are omitted by the mainstream American media (because quite seriously, who would care about Russia?).

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Al3s]

You can't handle the truth!!!

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[rich_hudds]

Err, he's on his way to Ecuador I think.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[BotnetZombie]

And you know this to be a fact, exactly how?

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[alexchorny]

It is not widely accepted in Russia, it is considered opposition propaganda. if you watch/read Russian news, you would see plenty of anti-Putin speeches and no one killed for them.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[psy0rz]

For your information: I'm from The Neterlands myself, and indeed i should have said: "collecting as much personal data as possible of every citizen in the world, all the time"

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[conquistadorst]

Coming from a country that lived under socialism under the fatherly caring hands of the Soviet Union, I am compelled to completely and utterly disagree with you on the point that Pravda was *ever* a "pretty good newspaper". It has never been a good newspaper, ever. Though it may have had varying degrees of lies and propaganda in any of its articles.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[nbauman]

After Gorbachev took office, somebody here started translating the entire day's Pravda into English, and I was able to read it. What I saw looked pretty good. They did feature stories that looked like the New York Times written by Dostoyevsky. It certainly compared well to the Wall Street Journal editorial page. They had a job to do, which was to figure out how to reform the Soviet Union, and they did a pretty good job. Unfortunately external forces intervened.

I know people who were born in the Soviet Union, and I know people who worked as newspaper correspondents in the Soviet Union, so I am well aware that they were under censorship and couldn't say certain things. I realize that the U.S. press is freer in many ways that the press in most other parts of the world.

In the Soviet Union, you were not allowed to criticize socialism. In the U.S., you were allowed to criticize socialism. Well, yeah. That's not freedom.The press in the U.S. would be a lot freer if they were able to criticize capitalism. If you were to study the history of the press in the U.S. over the last century, you'd see that a lot of Americans went to jail for publishing articles that were critical of capitalism. Look up the Supreme Court case of Dennis v. United States. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_v._United_States In the Soviet Union you go to jail for criticizing the Soviet Union. In the U.S. you go to jail for criticizing the U.S. That's freedom?

Look at the coverage of health care in the runup to Obama's health care reform. Try to find an article about single payer health care in the New York Times. There wasn't one. That was corporate censorship on behalf of powerful interest groups. Maybe the freedom of the press here looks pretty good to you. It doesn't look that good to me.

Interestingly, when American establishment journalists criticized the Soviet press, they used to seize on the very problems that we had in our own press and argued that in the Soviet Union, those problems were worse. In America journalists get fired for criticizing the government? Well, in the Soviet Union journalists go to jail for criticizing the government. So they're worse.

We've had this discussion here of the U.S. vs. the Soviet Union all during the cold war. I think most Americans were better off in the U.S. But if you just look at the Jim Crow laws, black Americans were under so much repression here that many of them would have been better off in the Soviet Union.

Now this terrorism business has become an excuse for taking away freedoms that had been settled issues, like the Fourth Amendment right to be free of government spying, which is what Snowden is all about. It used to be that the government couldn't read my mail without a court order. Now they can read my email whenever they want. They can track my cell phone. What was it again that was so bad about East Germany?

I'm an American. I'm not an uncritical booster of my political system. It's not like being a football fan. We have lots of problems here, we don't seem to be solving them, and if we don't solve them, we won't be the economic leader of the world for many more years.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/19/decline-fall-american-society-unravelled
Working class people can't even afford to get a college education any more, which is not a complaint I ever heard by people from the Soviet Union.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[rotovator]

RT is not the Russian television. It's a Russian-funded and owned American opposition television. They capitalize on the stories that are omitted by the mainstream American media (because quite seriously, who would care about Russia?).

That's why you can get the truth of your Home nation issues and news from RT. you won't get them from cnn. It's just as simple as that. We spanish, when we want to know the truth of our financial crisis, we go to german newspapers, I've even learned some german in order to be able to get real information from outside

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[1s44c]

The only requirement for being labled a "good guy" is to oppose every single thing the US does.

You were making sense right up to that last part.

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[Anonymous Coward]

I very much doubt that G. W. Bush is more populair than Obama in Germany. Here in the Netherlands the opposite is still truth, and I very much doubt that our neighbours have shifted that much. Was is correct is that we're all disapointed.

Re: He is not entering Russia.

[Anonymous Coward]

*you're x 2

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[icebraining]

However, the Russian press is diverse. I wonder what was your rationale for choosing the "Pravda"? (It's not even pro-gov!)

Because it was the only one I had heard of (I usually stick to my national newspapers, the BBC, Al Jazeera and occasionally NPR), so I decided to start from there. I only realized later that it's a different Pravda.

Also, I wonder why would you read the Russian press for the purposes other than getting informed about the local (regional) situation

Because as I said, I was following GP's advice.

However, for purposes other than showing off, you would have to learn Russian to be able to read the press.

That's what I thought, but since GP advised reading Russian media, I assumed at least some newspapers would have English versions, since I didn't expect him to essentially be saying, "you should learn a whole new language".

Re:He is not entering Russia.

[conquistadorst]

Like I said, it may have improved over brief periods of time but it was never a pretty good newspaper. Just varying degrees of less bad or ridiculous. Congratulations on reading one day's worth of Pravda, but if you think that somehow substantiates an opinion regarding the newspaper would be very misguided. I'm sure Fox News has a good day once in awhile too. But seriously, you reading the Pravda from the other side of the ocean is like looking through a telescope since you don't have any of the local context. You're going to need to give it a little more thought than that.

I'm hesitant to reply on any of your other statements because they appear to be aimed at someone else. I don't think anyone in their right mind can say the US (or any other republic or democracy) will be without blemish. Of course there are violations throughout history and even today. Especially if you bring into discussion the inhumane treatment of African Americans, that's a stain that will shame the US as long as there are accurate history books. Regardless, you're picking single examples that serve your opinion instead of looking at the big picture. You are allowed to criticize the US, what do you think you're doing now? ... but you picked an example during the Red Scare with McCarthy? Seriously? If you're going to make that argument I might as well bring in the Great Purge of the 1930's under Stalin where 681,692 people were shot to death for political reasons, averaging 1,000 executions per day. How's that for comparison? What do you think Pravda was reporting then? Oh, it was singing the praises of national heroes like it wasn't even happening. For most examples during the Red Scare in the US, the worst will be forever ostracized by society and/or sent to prison. In Russia they would have disappeared and the event would be silenced. If you don't think that's a difference of several orders of magnitude then you need your head checked.

Sure the US is hardly a heaven, you only need to look at current events and how our country is trending. You're certainly right about the terrorism business. It's infuriating to actually hear people support government "security" policies on the basis of feeling safer. But you really need to keep your personal cognitive biases in check, they're seriously out of balance. You remind me of one of my Russian pals who himself been drinking a little too much Pravda syrum.

Re:Run coward run!!!!!

[SJHiIlman]

Aren't they?

Re:Run coward run!!!!!

[magic maverick]

I hope you discover that you are wrong. That anyone who exposes the misdeeds of governments is a hero. And that rather than wishing them to be punished, that they should be rewarded. We should encourage people to step forward and denounce wrong doing, not punish them.

You are one of the worst sort of enablers, you claim to care about the misdeeds, but you still wish to punish those who expose them.

Re:Run coward run!!!!!

[LVSlushdat]

Frankly, Sparky.. I think he's a flippin' national hero, on a par with many of the heros of the first American revolution, and I'm betting theres a LOT of us out here who think this.... He knew his life was gonna change dramatically and he'd likely be on the run from the pigshit running this country now, YET he blew the whistle on the blatantly UNconstitutional crap these three-letter fiefdoms were perpetrating on the American people.. Sure, I'll grant you that he violated a bunch of laws/rules/regulations, BUT he followed the only really important law.. the Constitution, the one mentioned in the oath that government workers take, where they swear to "protect and defend the Constitution from enemies foreign and domestic..." He was defending it from the pigshit poseurs who are trying to shred the Constitution at every turn.. So you can call me and the rest of us who think he's a hero a moron, but we know we're the people the founding fathers had in mind, and YOU are the moron, if I was into ad hominim attacks, which I try to avoid.. But since YOU started it, I'm gonna play along.. You and your ilk are part of the problem with America today... YOU are the moron...

Re:Run coward run!!!!!

[LVSlushdat]

I totally agree.. and the old "we were just following orders" didn't work in Nurnberg and it shouldn't work here either.. ANYbody with half a brain AND who has READ the Constitution should KNOW that what they are doing is BLATANTLY unconstitutional.. I don't give a crap what the pigshit running these agencies say, its UNconstitutional..

Re:Arrived in Moscow...left with Venezuelan diplom

[Anonymous Coward]

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/pardon-edward-snowden/Dp03vGYD

Re:He is not a whistleblower

[Anonymous Coward]

.... seriously?

Re:He is not a whistleblower

[Anonymous Coward]

I see you finished your kool-aid. Would you like some more?

Re:He is not a whistleblower

[Anonymous Coward]

You are confused. Just because Congress authorized it doesn't make it legal. Coming to mind quickly is the McCain Feingold campaign finance reform (authorized by Congress), which has come to the Supreme Court three times and every time been ruled unconstitutional, hence illegal. The NSA spying is illegal according to the 4th amendment no matter what Congress says. If they don't like it, the way to make it legal is pass an amendment to repeal the 4th amendment, whcih they know won't be possible.

Snoden exposed illegal activity by the NSA, also exposing Congress "authroizing" illegal activity without worrying about consequences because they kept it hidden from the public. So in addition to exposing the illegal activity, he also exposed the illegal cover-up of the illegal activity.

He is the definition of a whistleblower, also showing that there are no whistleblower protections for citizens in the USA.

Re:Run coward run!!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/pardon-edward-snowden/Dp03vGYD sign the petition if you haven't already. help speak out against this bullshit.

Stupid fucking site requires JS to view article

[Anonymous Coward]

Full text below (copied from page source)

US whistle-blower Edward Snowden has left Hong Kong and is on a commercial flight to Russia, but Moscow will not be his final destination.

The fugitive whistle-blower boarded the Moscow-bound flight earlier on Sunday and would continue on to another country, possibly Cuba then Venezuela, according to media reports.

The Hong Kong government said in a statement that Snowden had departed "on his own accord for a third country through a lawful and normal channel".

The 30-year-old left from Chep Lap Kok airport on a flight scheduled for 10.55am. He is believed to have boarded Aeroflot Flight SU213, which landed at Moscow’s Sheremetyevo International Airport at 5.03pm local time, according to the airport's website.

"Snowden left Hong Kong on his own will," a government source told the Post, adding that the Hong Kong government had not provided Snowden with any assistance or protection during his whole stay. The source dispelled media claims that the government had provided him a "safe house".

It was understood that Snowden's departure was a relief to the Hong Kong government, which had been making all legal preparation to deal with new developments regarding the case.

Regina Ip, former secretary of security, told the New York Times : "I think [the US] government will be upset for a while, but I hope that they will shrug it off, because our government acted in accordance with the law. Our government officials can breathe a sigh of relief."

Final destination?

Russian news agencies Interfax and Itar-Tass reported Snowden is booked on a flight from Moscow to Cuba on Monday. Itar-Tass said Snowden would fly from Havana to Caracas, Venezuela.

“A passenger under that name will arrive in Moscow from Hong Kong today on flight SU213, and tomorrow, on June 24, he will fly to Havana on flight SU150,” the state news agency ITAR-Tass quoted a source at the airline as saying. “Also tomorrow, he will go to Caracas from Havana on a local flight.”

There is no legal basis to restrict Mr Snowden from leaving Hong Kong

--Hong Kong government

'No legal basis'

The Hong Kong government said it had notified the US government about Snowden's departure.

Snowden is wanted by the US government after he disclosed classified documents detailing the clandestine cybersnooping programmes carried out by Washington’s National Security Agency.

The US government on June 14 filed espionage and theft charges against the former CIA technician, and the US National Security Council confirmed that it had put in a formal extradition request to the Hong Kong government.

The Hong Kong government said on Sunday that it had requested more information so the Department of Justice could consider whether to go forward with the US extradition request.

“As the HKSAR government has yet to have sufficient information to process the request for provisional warrant of arrest, there is no legal basis to restrict Mr Snowden from leaving Hong Kong,” the statement said.

Later on Sunday, China's foreign ministry said: "The central government always respects the HKSAR government's handling of affairs in accordance with law."

WikiLeaks' role

WikiLeaks, whistle-blowing website founded by Julian Assange, said on Twitter it had helped Snowdwn secure political asylum in a “democratic country”. It also said it had arr

Re:He is not a whistleblower

[Anonymous Coward]

And you would have sent people to the death camps in Nazi Germany because your government told you to. The government is always right.

Re:Run coward run!!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Which brings up the idea that in a democracy the voters get the government they deserve. Since most of the people didn't know this was going on and they voted for governments that keep the program going, they get what they deserve.

Bennie was right to say them as give up their rights for security neither deserve or get either. Read the dang Constitution. It tells you how to avoid this situation but you have to have a moderately intelligent and involved citizenry.

What wrong with you, (US) folks ?

[boorack]

Will be a bit off-topic but it is somewhat related to your questions and Snowden gave us a chance to fix this.

I've ran across this article and another one. Both in quite a reputable magazine that is around for 100+ years. While these are theoretical ones, I'm stunned by what they wrote. Theorizing whenever it is possible to dronebomb Snowden without even acknowledging how lawless and cruel such murder would be (yes, murdering, assasination - not just killing!). I'm even more stunned with comments below commenting technicalities of such act without any regard to criminality of such act. Face it folks ! You've been brainwashed to the point where your moral consciouness does not work anymore - you just take such crap for granted from your psychopatic, corporate media and then wonder why there is no outcry ?!? I haven't seen such levels of apathy anywhere in the world ! Add result of latest polls into equation (majority americans don't mind being spied by NSA) and see how sad state of affairs is. Your corporate government can manipulate you into anything it wants ! That huge data cache collected and stored in the NSA is propably the crucial tool it uses to achieve this goal. They can strip you out of everything (see housing bubble, bailouts, healthcare system bankrupting and killing people, fraudclosure, mass-jailing people for profit etc. etc.) and there is virtually no backlash from american citizenry. How this happens is just beyond my perception. I don't know what kind of science does it take to borg 330 millions people into submission, but I suspect it might be as advanced as science behind putting Curiosity rover onto Mars.

Re:What wrong with you, (US) folks ?

[drinkypoo]

Theorizing whenever it is possible to dronebomb Snowden without even acknowledging how lawless and cruel such murder would be (yes, murdering, assasination - not just killing!).

You don't have to apologize for using the word murder. We know what it means and why it applies when the government does it, especially to citizens without due process.

But you're way off base when you complain that they're not examining the moral implications; that's not their job. These publications will tell you what is possible. The letters to the editor discuss the moral implications. Sometimes those are written by the editor for this purpose...

Re:What wrong with you, (US) folks ?

[zzyzyx]

Do you think the reaction would be any different in another part of the World, say Europe? Actually it takes place in the UK too, as revealed by the Guardian. And the silence of many European governments on the subject, with the notable exception of Germany, suggests that those countries are doing that too, but the public reaction is minimal. Citizens of the Western World keep electing people who lie to them, defraud them, exploit them for the benefit of an elite. Like you I do not understand why, but it is not a US-only phenomenon.

Re:What wrong with you, (US) folks ?

[amaurea]

Yes, of course they would be different in other parts of the world! They are different inside the USA, and the differences are probably greater outside it. I do now know how large these differences are, and seeing some statistics on that would be very enlightening. It is pretty common here on Slashdot to react to "Country X has problem Y" by claiming "every other country has problem Y too, to exactly the same degree" with no evidence to back that up, even though "every country is the same" is a tiny point in a huge parameter space.

Re:He is not a whistleblower

[Anonymous Coward]

Being a naive idiot?

I can't let you do that Dave.

Re:He is not a whistleblower

[Anonymous Coward]

What a load of crap, the congress and the court system might have decided mass surveillance is "legal" but it sure as hell was unconstitutional.

Re:Run coward run!!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

The cowards here are the hundreds, if not thousands that continue to practice the spying that Snowden alerted us to.

We are but the ignorant who spend more attention on Snowden's flight than on the people committing crimes against us.

Re:He is not a whistleblower

[Anonymous Coward]

Naturally. Deutschland uber alles!

He's running for his life..

[Rhurazz12]

He's ultimately screwed if he stays in Russia, which is why he's in transit to Cuba. If you ask me, he burned waaay too many bridges and the very people who are supposed to protect him are seeking to destroy him because of some deep dark secret our country holds. Imagine that!

How you know your country is fucked

[Intrepid imaginaut]

Two words, my friend. "Secret laws".

Re:How you know your country is fucked

[jopsen]

Please mod parent insightful...

Re:How you know your country is fucked

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes. Ed Snowden will soon be Dead Snoton.

Re:How you know your country is fucked

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, America needs their Jesus moment. That's the only way this Babylon can come to sense.

bullcrap

[Anonymous Coward]

any mention of bilderburgers and i immediately know whom you are... a complete idiot nutjob working for that otehr group thats trying to take over.
WHY? cause the last prime minister we had before this was a bilderburger and ya know what , he was paying down the national debt so well that if we still had him it might in fact be around 200 billion , not the 700 billion that hamstrings our way of life and prosperity.

YA a bilderburger helping his nation imagine that....seems to me like myself they have said ok screw you ....we won't help and see where it takes you.

Re:bullcrap

[Anonymous Coward]

And any blanket dismissal of this stuff makes me suspect that you are a paid agent provocateur.

Re:Run coward run!!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/pardon-edward-snowden/Dp03vGYD

Re:He is not a whistleblower

[Anonymous Coward]

Dave, if he gets whacked, and your data gets hacked, he will have died for the tenants of the constitution and the bill of rights. Perhaps when you fathom the gross violations of peoples privacy which is all the rage with the Fortune500`s and Gov agencies, you might regard him more of a beacon of freedom.

Re:He is not a whistleblower

[Anonymous Coward]

Without arguing whether it is legal what the government is doing, the realty is that most americans don't support this activity, didn't know it was happening, and didn't think there were laws enabling it. Therefore, even if it is legal, Snowden acted on belief that is shared by most americans. If he can keep this chase up long enough shit might even change.

Re:He is not a whistleblower

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you DaveV1.0 for actually having the guts to post something intelligent. It is amazing how many people instantly believe the rants of someone who is out for sensationalism. Having a debate on what the US should or should not be able to do is certainly something its citizens should be able to voice their opinions about, but supporting someone who has potentially aided terrorism is something I would hope the general public will not stand for.

Re:He is not a whistleblower

[Anonymous Coward]

You should be ashamed of yourself.

Re:Run coward run!!!!!

[Pav]

Some biting rap satire on the current state of affairs : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnMPQmIPibE

Re:He is not a whistleblower

[amginenigma]

Wow... Look everyone the Obama administrations mouth piece is here on Slashdot, seriously I think you hit every 'talking' point they've put out up to now on this issue.

Nope! Nothing to do with it at all

[erroneus]

He's just going on a vacation. I've heard Russia hosts space tourism and he's just gonna go visit the ISS for a bit.

Re:He is not a whistleblower

[drinkypoo]

What is interesting is that basically all of the well-known whistleblowers are coming out in favor of the actions of Snowden and Manning... it seems like the only person who believes this shit is you, and the other followers of Faux news.

Re:He is not a whistleblower

[DaveV1.0]

Wow, look, you don't like the truth. Go bury your head in the sand.

Hong Kong SAR press release on Edward Snowden

[SpaceLifeForm]

Link

The HKSAR Government today (June 23) issued the following statement on Mr Edward Snowden:

Mr Edward Snowden left Hong Kong today (June 23) on his own accord for a third country through a lawful and normal channel.

The US Government earlier on made a request to the HKSAR Government for the issue of a provisional warrant of arrest against Mr Snowden. Since the documents provided by the US Government did not fully comply with the legal requirements under Hong Kong law, the HKSAR Government has requested the US Government to provide additional information so that the Department of Justice could consider whether the US Government's request can meet the relevant legal conditions. As the HKSAR Government has yet to have sufficient information to process the request for provisional warrant of arrest, there is no legal basis to restrict Mr Snowden from leaving Hong Kong.

The HKSAR Government has already informed the US Government of Mr Snowden's departure.

Meanwhile, the HKSAR Government has formally written to the US Government requesting clarification on earlier reports about the hacking of computer systems in Hong Kong by US government agencies. The HKSAR Government will continue to follow up on the matter so as to protect the legal rights of the people of Hong Kong.

Ends/Sunday, June 23, 2013
Issued at HKT 16:05

Re:He is not a whistleblower

[erroneus]

"Trust of his country?" Sorry, but not. The government is NOT the country. And the last time the government acted in the interests of the majority of this country was WELL before I was born. I was pretty happy believing the US government was the good guys -- I'm a good guy and so it's not hard to extend that belief to the government that, I believed, represents me. They don't. They endanger us all. There are places in this world I can't go because of the symbols associated with my identity material. Was it because of anything I did or believe? Not particularly. It's because of other people and other causes. And the same is absolutely true of millions of innicent men, women and children in this country.

The fact that someone within the government (or at least, in this case associated with it) could see what's going on and realize it's wrong AND act on it is amazing. There is no shortage of people in government who see what's going on. There's a large number who realize what's going on is wrong. But so very few will do anything about it. Take it from a former TSA screener.

I think it's time for you to do a personal check-list about what's going on. Check the constitution and the bill of rights. How much of it do you agree with? Check what people in government are actually doing and compare with how much you actually agree with. And forget the causes and motivations you've been told. They're moronic on their faces. "The official stories" are written so badly, it's as if they aren't even trying to really convince anyone of anything any longer.

I'm still having trouble deciding if you're a troll or an idiot. The two, of course, are not mutually exclusive. After all, if you were trolling, you're clearly divorced of the gravity of this situation which makes you an idiot. But if you're just an idiot who believes what he's saying? Well... I can't see where there's much hope for you.

Clinton: "security, privacy mutually reinforcing"

[benjfowler]

Interesting speech by President Clinton in Edinburgh this week.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/21/clinton-nsa-scotland-speech

I would expect a speech from a past US President who was also smart enough to be a Rhodes Scholar, to carry some weight.

However, I somehow think that nuance and thoughtfulness expressed in that short article will probably not jibe with the prejudices of the Slashdot peanut gallery.

I still think that Snowdon, like many commenters here, is a twit. Snowdon in particular is a dangerous twit because he's not qualified to judge the impact of the secrets he's leaking being made public. I hope for his sake that he doesn't end up with blood on his hands.

Re:Run coward run!!!!!

[Spottywot]

Hope this treasonous coward gets extradited and spends the rest of his miserable life in jail. I'm not a fan of the NSA doing all of this, but anyone who didn't know it's been going on is a moron.

So let's get this straight, it's ok for Government organisations to break the law in the national interest but not for individuals, not only that but you knew about this all along but kept it quiet because you thought that everybody except morons knew already.

In all seriousness do you really think that he deserves to be treated the same way as Bradley Manning for revealing the extent to which your own government spies on you?

Re:He is not a whistleblower

[tukang]

authorized by and deemed legal by Congress and the court system

That's not entirely true. The court system has not ruled one way or another whether the secret programs are legal. The Supreme Court has so far refused to hear cases brought against the NSA's spying program because the defendands have not been able to prove that their constituional rights were violated by these programs (due to their secret nature) but with Snowden's leaks they can now easily prove that their communications have in fact been targeted and, as a Verizon customer, the ACLU has filed a case against the NSA in federal court.

Thanks to Snowden the Supreme Court will likely be forced to rule on the constitutionality of these programs and if they are found uncsontitutional it matters not what laws Congress passed or Executive Orders the President issued to authorize them because those all become null and void.

16 Am Jur 2d, Sec 177 late 2d, Sec 256:

The general misconception is that any statute passed by legislators bearing the appearance of law constitutes the law of the land. The U.S. Constitution is the supreme law of the land, and any statute, to be valid, must be In agreement. It is impossible for both the Constitution and a law violating it to be valid; one must prevail. This is succinctly stated as follows:

The General rule is that an unconstitutional statute, though having the form and name of law is in reality no law, but is wholly void, and ineffective for any purpose; since unconstitutionality dates from the time of it's enactment and not merely from the date of the decision so branding it. An unconstitutional law, in legal contemplation, is as inoperative as if it had never been passed. Such a statute leaves the question that it purports to settle just as it would be had the statute not been enacted.

Since an unconstitutional law is void, the general principles follow that it imposes no duties, confers no rights, creates no office, bestows no power or authority on anyone, affords no protection, and justifies no acts performed under it.....

A void act cannot be legally consistent with a valid one. An unconstitutional law cannot operate to supersede any existing valid law. Indeed, insofar as a statute runs counter to the fundamental law of the lend, it is superseded thereby.

No one Is bound to obey an unconstitutional law and no courts are bound to enforce it.

Re:He is not a whistleblower

[Anonymous Coward]

His actions are not of a whistleblowing patriot. They are the actions of an arrogant, amateur, traitorous, free-lance espionage agent.

DO tell us, what do the boots of your masters taste like ?

Re:He is not a whistleblower

[Karl Cocknozzle]

I love it when I get modded "Troll" for speaking the truth. How about you refute any part of what I posted?

I grant my trust that somebody in the government will have the stones to do the right thing and expose law-breaking by the government, no matter how many layers of threatened criminal charges the government layers into the contract. That nobody did it before Snowden speaks volumes to how stupid and uneducated Americans really are to what their civil rights are and what their duty to their country is (the oaths all say "support and defend the constitution" not "follow all orders, legal or otherwise.") Really? Nobody in a uniform (before Bradley Manning) had the guts to say "I won't help cover it up any more." Nobody? Not one person?

Nobody is obligated to follow an illegal or unconstitutional order, and this kid did the exact right thing in exposing it. I wouldn't have trusted the US government or relied on the whistle blower statutes (as weak and ineffectual as they are) either based on the government's recent track record of prosecuting whistle blowers. His only "mistake" seems to have been attaching his name and face to it rather than simply mailing it anonymously to the Guardian.

Re:He is not a whistleblower

[j-turkey]

While I appreciate your honest opinion, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that very little of this can be categorized into "black" or "white"; at least not yet. I not only respectfully disagree with the absolute premise that you offer, I also disagree with the absolute premise taken up by most of those who have replied to you. There are many questions that need to be answered before these kind of conclusions can be drawn.

It is clear that Snowden did violate his confidentiality agreement - there is no arguing this. He broke the law, and I'm not going to dispute it. The legality of the program at-large, however, has not been established. You are correct that the program was authorized by Congress. Suggesting that the program was deemed legal by the court system is dubious, at best. The existence of FISA courts, where federal judges review and grant surveillance warrants does not qualify as judicial review and does very little to validate that the program meets constitutional standards. If it is established that the program violated the constitution (the highest law of the land), it will be the government who violated the law, and covered it under a veil of secrecy. If this is the case, it is a serious violation of the trust of the American people; and whether or not it prevent terrorist attacks is irrelevant, as the ends don't justify the means (IMO). The government can't have it both ways - holding citizens accountable for following the law when it doesn't adhere to its own laws.

I'm also curious about you meant by Snowden doing this for his own gain. What did he have to gain? Notoriety? It seems to me that he had more to lose than he had to gain...but then again, I do not understand the desire for notoriety, and would prefer to avoid the public eye. Either way, until the program is understood and scrutinized, I don't think that it's fair to categorize Snowden is a whistle-blowing patriot or a traitor (yet).

I hope that we do the right thing here and analyze the program; asking the necessary questions to determine what is constitutionally acceptable. Further, I hope that my fellow Americans think long and hard about the implications of programs like this. I'm a bit uncomfortable with the government warehousing massive amounts of data about its citizens, even if mining it takes a warrant from a secret court. I understand the argument that companies are already doing this (to an extent)...but what differentiates them from our government is that they don't have the power to incarcerate or kill people. Now, I'm afraid that our government will sweep this under the rug, preventing any honest dialog in the name of national security. I honestly believe that even if this program is legitimate and legal, the ability to secretly monitor Americans will eventually be abused; if not by this government/administration, it will be by another one.

Re:Run coward run!!!!!

[Pav]

Rubbish... Setting this up as an us-vs-them isn't constructive. You could have painted Snowden the same way right up until he blew the whistle. There are plenty of good people in there I'm sure. Perhaps they're trying to put pressure on the culture from within. Perhaps they're staying in until they see the next thing that needs leaking. Perhaps they're saving for an escape, or perhaps they just have too many vulnerable family members they just can't expose to the kinds of attacks that would come. Perhaps they've been drinking the coolaid and just need a few more months to realise where their real duty lies.

Re:He is not a whistleblower

[Anonymous Coward]

and the other followers of Faux news.

And this is why this shit continues to happen. Those followers of "Faux news" have been against the tyranical government for a decade, and congratuations you have finally just agreed with them. But now they will not support you because you voted for it, you attacked them, and you called them racists. Because you are a bigot, the government has effectively continued this kind of behavior because instead of calling Obama a tyrant, you are calling other US citizens that had the opinion first idiots.

USSR coined a term for people just like you. "Useful idiots".

What happened to he didn't have access?

[Nyder]

What happened to them saying he didn't have any secrets, he didn't have access, and that they weren't doing that crap, they were saying it like a week ago.

Did he release the docs he had? How come I feel like there is something missing from then & now?

Re:What happened to he didn't have access?

[Nyder]

What happened to them saying he didn't have any secrets, he didn't have access, and that they weren't doing that crap, they were saying it like a week ago.

Did he release the docs he had? How come I feel like there is something missing from then & now?

http://yro.slashdot.org/story/13/06/14/1431232/snowden-is-lying-say-house-intelligence-committee-leaders

This is what I'm talking about. What happened from this to now? And why then is our House Intelligence Committee Leaders lying?

Re:What happened to he didn't have access?

[0111 1110]

Yeah. When that news story broke I was thinking that by saying that they couldn't then go after him for any sort of espionage. It's only if what he says is true that he is exposing state secrets. If the things he is saying are untrue I guess they can sue him for libel, but they can't claim he is exposing their secrets. They clearly are not afraid of contradicting themselves. I guess they see themselves as so powerful that they have no need for logic.

Re:What happened to he didn't have access?

[mysidia]

What happened to them saying he didn't have any secrets, he didn't have access, and that they weren't doing that crap, they were saying it like a week ago.

They need to make an example of him. Now that he is fleeing to countries less friendly to the US; though, he's making himself a legitimate target for a NSA/CIA/Military assault team or drone strike.

I think this guy has a 60 to 80 percent probability of this not ending well for him. He may wish he had stayed in the US to answer for the charges.

Cold War II?

[Geremia]

Very interesting! Looks like Cold War II (or the continuation of the Cold War) has begun.

Re:He is not a whistleblower

[Anonymous Coward]

You want a rebuttal? Here you go:

authorized by and deemed legal by Congress

Congress can't deem things legal. The DoJ (executive branch) can claim things are legal and the courts can rule on whether they are legal, but Congress just makes laws.

and the court system

Which case did the Supreme Court rule on? The closest I can think of would be al-Haramin's lawyer's case regarding the transcript of his own phone call he was mailed "accidentally". He won that case, the 9th overturned the award. However, the 9th did not overturn by claiming the warrantless wiretap was constitutional, instead they claimed that sovereign immunity meant that the government could not be held responsible for violating the constitution, and Bush's Telecommunications Nuremburg Act meant you can't hold the phone companies responsible for Just Following Orders, therefore the lawsuit was void. The Supreme Court declined to hear the case, so the current "court system" position is that warrantless wiretaps are unconstitutional and illegal but you can't do anything about it, even when you have proof that it happened.

BTW, if you're so certain it's legal, you're welcome to point to which article of the Constitution permits the federal government to spy on citizens without warrant.

damaged the national security

By telling everyone what we've already had proof of since the above-mentioned al-Haramin case, and what we've assumed since Clinton's ECHELON days. The only difference is that now we know it's every American, and not just the lawyer of some terrorists.

political capital

Was there any left?

and reputation

Awww, you spy on your own citizens and now people compare you to East Germany. Reputation, like respect, is earned not given.

yet fled his country

Perhaps the quote should be changed to "better to live on your feet than die on your knees".

Re:Run coward run!!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow... comparing NSA employees to guards at WWII death camps. Difference is, those guards helped facilitate the deaths of millions of innocents... while NSA has never done anything. They even seem to be disregarding their own mandate, because while NSA certainly collects the data, it seems its so secret they don't ever share it, even with other government agencies like FBI or CIA. For example, NSA had enough information to know something was going down on 11 September 2001, enough info to stop the 9/11 attacks, but their gathering of the information was secret, they wouldn't even allow an FBI agent working with them who discovered it to tell his own agency about it... had he done so he would have been arrested and tried for treason. NSA is more like God... sees everything, does nothing.

Tweets Say Ecuador

[Freshly Exhumed]

https://twitter.com/RicardoPatinoEC/status/348841761684197378

Re:Tweets Say Ecuador

[Ecuador]

Yes, we^H^HEcuador received an asylum request from Snowden a few hours ago.

Re:Tweets Say Ecuador

[Anonymous Coward]

So you received his request. Are you going to grant it?

Re:He is not a whistleblower

[Anonymous Coward]

This is an individual who has things to lose, i.e. homes, cars, investments, retirement plans and TOYS. That's why he says the things he says.

Re:Run coward run!!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Frankly, Sparky.. I think he's a flippin' national hero, on a par with many of the heros of the first American revolution

I get your point, but even still... Snowden is no George Washington. As impressive as sysadmins can be, and they are pretty damn impressive, they still are puny mortals compared to the Founding Fathers. If the US had a single division of men as principled as and of the stature of the Founding Fathers... there would be no enemy in the modern world that could stand against them and no more war anywhere.

The Telepromter in Chief.

[Anonymous Coward]

Does not sound to far off...

Its well known that Obama is lost with out his telepromter. And I think its also a good bet that Putin could beat O in an arm wrestling match.

The only thing off about the quote is maybe a poor translation.

Re:He is not a whistleblower

[yokem_55]

The problem with this position is that the 4th amendment is not, and never has been an absolute right to privacy whenever and wherever I want it to be. There are limitations. Thus we have a huge history of jurisprudence surrounding the whole notion that the 4th only applies when you have a "reasonable expectation of privacy". And when you provide information to a third party to store for your convenience, not pay them for anything for the service (thus you can't really be called a "tenant"), and you allow that third party to read your information so that they can sell better targeted advertisements, you no longer have a reasonable expectation of privacy.

The sad reality of our online world is that the vast majority of our communications now involve 3rd party intermediaries who provide their services for free and when you use those services, your 4th amendment rights don't apply.

Don't like it? Host your own mail server in your house. Encrypt your communications. Use peer to peer encrypted services that don't involve 3rd parties. Avoid communicating with those that use 3rd party services.

Too much trouble for you? Then lobby for some tougher privacy laws or an amendment to the constitution guaranteeing a more absolute right to privacy when you store your information with a 3rd party.

Re:Run coward run!!!!!

[tqk]

I'm not a fan of the NSA doing all of this, but anyone who didn't know it's been going on is a moron.

So, where's the treason? Is it treasonous to tell everyone that the sun sets in the west?

Do the world a favour and kill yourself.

Re:Run coward run!!!!!

[Agripa]

"We were just following orders" only fails if you lose the war.

Re:He is not a whistleblower

[Anonymous Coward]

You should learn the meaning of the term. He didn't expose criminal activity,

The NSA listening in on US citizens without a warrant violates the US Constitution.

And that is the highest law in the US.

So you're wrong on this count.

And you're wrong on all your other points too.

Do us all a favor and kill yourself. It would be the most honorable
thing a piece of shit like you can do.

Re:He is not a whistleblower

[Anonymous Coward]

What you wrote sounds exactly like a gang complaining about a snitch after it gets out what they are up to - of course the informer has to hide from the gang. Democracy doesn't work without an informed electorate. Snowden is improving your democracy, and you want to punish him for it. The damage being done is not because people found about what was going on, it's because this stuff was going on in the first place. Snowden is just the highly necessary messenger.

Re:He is not a whistleblower

[evilviper]

which were authorized by and deemed legal by Congress

Which doesn't matter one bit, if those actions run afoul of the Constitution.

final destination

[0111 1110]

He can spend up to 3 months in Cuba on a tourist visa. Obviously the Cuban government isn't going to extradite him and Cubana won't be sending the US any flight lists. This point is perhaps the most important. Cuba is a place where Snowdon can break the paper trail. He can stay anywhere from 1 to 90 days there and then procede to his final destination.

The only risk to this strategy is that the Cuban government may want to ask him a few questions about the NSA before allowing him to leave. Assuming the Cuban government allows him to leave I would guess Ecuador. It's obviously willing to protect whistle blowers and Assange could have discussed the matter directly with officials at his embassy. According to this list Ecuador does have an extradition treaty with the US though, but maybe it is just for murders and other violent crime. I think Ecuador and Venezuela are both nice places to live. So either way he's good as long as he has money. Hopefully he moved all of his funds out of US banks before blowing his whistle. Otherwise freezing his funds will be one of the first things the US LEO thugs will do.

Re:Run coward run!!!!!

[BitZtream]

What backlash?

Other than a few people freaking out like yourself and the rest of slashdot, there has been no reaction.

There certainly has been no backlash. He didn't even really say anything we didn't already know and have known for years.

The US government isn't even trying hard to get him, thats why he's still talking and actually traveling. Its not like he's hard to find, he's freaking walking into the airport and traveling with a US passport for fucks sake. They JUST NOW revoked it. The DoJ barely bothered to file the extradition request with Hong Kong.

He may be 'wanted', but not very bad. He's as wanted as Assange, which is pretty much not at all unless you're a massive conspiracy moron.

Re:Run coward run!!!!!

[BitZtream]

Wrong.

Its not unconstitutional until the supreme court says so. You don't define unconstitutional. Thats the way we run our government. If you disagree, get voters to change it, but you don't get to redefine the words any more than the government does.

Re:Run coward run!!!!!

[BitZtream]

'Speak out' ... seriously?

You're an idiot if you think 'signing an internet petition' is speaking out. The only way you could put less effort into it is by not doing anything at all.

Re:Run coward run!!!!!

[houghi]

I would say the same to all the guards in Gitmo.

Re:Run coward run!!!!!

[BitZtream]

Wow, how times have changed.

You just stated that a man who violated his contract with people he agreed, openly, up front to not betray, to tell 'the world' what they already knew the NSA was doing (seriously, you're a fucking moron if this is news to you), is a hero in comparison to men who put everything they had on the line including their lives?

Snowden hasn't lost anything, hasn't risked his life, and is now about to be some foreign governments whore for a few months till their done with his information and put him in a hole somewhere.

He's not a hero, hero's do good things without having to think about it or take press interviews. He's just a guy who wanted Assange level attention.

Guess what, the US government invaded Iraq and Afghanistan ... there, now I've done the same thing Snowden did, except I'm not violating a contract with my own government. Neither he, nor I, told anyone anything they didn't already know unless they lived in a box.

Whistleblowing only makes you a hero in certain cases, not just because you betrayed someones trust. Doing something useful is a prerequisite for being a hero.

Notes != teleprompter

[Anonymous Coward]

I took a speech class in high school. Take that for what its worth.

We were taught to use note cards, and the note cards were only for writing an outline of your speech with maybe a reminder to touch on some important points as you progress in your speech. Anyone who tried to write their entire speech into the note cards had significant points deducted from their grade.

The purpose of a teleprompter is not to outline a person's monologue, it is to spoon-feed it to them verbatim. Go watch a nightly newscast if you want to see an example of teleprompters in action.

For as bad as Bush's diction skills were, coupled with his extremely limited vocabulary, he managed to give hundreds of speeches without a teleprompter.

Re:Notes != teleprompter

[Hognoxious]

Go watch a nightly newscast if you want to see an example of teleprompters in action.

I like when it's running too fast or too slow or there's an odd line break and they put the empHAsis on the wrong sylABle.

Or maybe they just can't fucking read.

Re:Run coward run!!!!!

[BitZtream]

Its not okay for anyone to break the law willingly or knowingly.

Just because your neighbor beats his wife, does that make it okay for you to beat your wife? No, so stop trying to make it out like two rights make a wrong.

Yes, he should be treated like Manning, thats the punishment for doing what he did. If you don't like it, change the law, but you don't ignore the law just because YOU don't like it.

The reality of it is, lots of people see a small part of a big picture and think telling the world will make them a hero can make everyone happier, but thats just a fantasy.

You're right, he's a constitutional defender

[Anonymous Coward]

He swore to perform his duties according to the constitution of the United States. He was asked by his superiors to choose between (a) violating his oath to the constitution of the United States, and (b) violating the oath he swore to his superiors.

If a country is asking you to make that choice, that country deserves to have its "political capital" and "reputation" damaged.

Re:He is not a whistleblower

[Anonymous Coward]

Worth dying for, not worth being tortured for. Your country has tortured people while holding them without charge. When the Vietcong were doing that, I'll bet you were against it.

Re:Run coward run!!!!!

[0111 1110]

Bullshit. The US wants him badly. Very badly. Short of obvious assassination attempts on foreign soil, they are doing everything in their power to get him to Gitmo, but they are too stupid and incompetent. The whole world is laughing at them and smiling as their quarry slips from their grasp forever. And I am cheering as this hero gives the finger to the USDOJ and the rest of the corrupt, thuggish government as he exposes all of their illegal, immoral, and unconstitutional behavior. I'm hoping that this is one of the few times where the good guy actually wins. For once, perhaps a good deed will go at least somewhat unpunished. I wish him a happy life in Ecuador. It's a nicer place to live than the US anyway.

In a few days

[Anonymous Coward]

"Putin to hand over Snowden in exchange for Kraft's forgiveness"

Here's why

[dbIII]

Protests are about getting attention. Many of them are theatre. That does not change the issues that they are drawing attention to.

Re:Here's why

[Luckyo]

Which is my exact point. Support those who are actually WORKING on righting wrongs. Not attention whores who do absolutely nothing for human rights, and instead break into churches and shoot preggo porn for attention masking those acts as "done in the name of human rights". Those whom you can actually support without having to ignore these huge elephants in the room. There are plenty of these people.

Re:He is not a whistleblower

[Anonymous Coward]

No... all the well-known narcissists have come out in favor of his actions, which are just the same as their actions. It's all been "Look at ME, Look at ME", a true whistleblower would care about "Look at THIS" above all else.

Re:He is not a whistleblower

[BitZtream]

Just because Congress authorized it doesn't make it legal.

Actually it does. Thats the way our government works. Congress, by definition, is the ONLY group who can make something legal.

And as you noticed, its legal UNTIL the supreme court says otherwise.

God, we're going to have to start spend more time on American Government in our schools, you guys have no fucking clue how your own government works.

Re:Run coward run!!!!!

[Spottywot]

Don't think I said two wrongs make a right anywhere. The law does not automatically make a right either, sometimes you have to use your own moral compass. Sounds like you would support any Government action as long as it is a technically legal one, and you would obey any law regardless of the moral implications.

Re:Run coward run!!!!!

[0111 1110]

Yes, he should be treated like Manning, thats the punishment for doing what he did.

Apparently not. Looks like Snowden's only punishment is going to be permanent exile, which I don't really consider much of a punishment since many countries are much nicer places to live. Looks to me like Snowden will be living a long and happy life.

Hopefully future whistle blowers will learn from this example and not be so afraid to speak out against US government evil and corruption for fear of being tortured and then murdered in Gitmo.

Obama Pissed Off !

[Anonymous Coward]

Mr. Obama will piss blood every day that news about Mr. Snowden is broadcast.

Perhaps Mr. Obama will issue a secret executive order forbidding the U.S.A. national news agencies from broadcasting news about Mr. Snowden on threat of penalty of death.

Re:Obama Pissed Off !

[mendax]

Wouldn't that be special? And how long will it be before a Federal court overturns that order? Oh... probably about as long as it would take you to cook an egg. (Hint: eggs cook fast.)

Wrong definition

[amaurea]

Here is a typical definition of the word:
    whistleblower: an informant who exposes wrongdoing within an organization in the hope of stopping it.
As you can see, the law does not enter into the definition. How about this hypothetical situation? What if you discovered that not only is the government assassinating dissidents, but also discover the existence of a secret section of the constitution that overrides the rest of it, and gives the government unlimited power to disappear dissidents while making it illegal to reveal the existence of said section of the constitution to the public?

In this case, the government is not doing anything illegal, and you would be breaking the law by revealing it. I think you would still agree that revealing this to the public would be moral, and that doing so would be whistleblowing. Of course, the real situation in the current case is less extreme than that, but what Snowden did was still moral. He did not damage national security, and even if he had, national security is overrated. Political capital was only damaged to the extent that this was both unknown and unpopular with the population. I.e. the only way this could have damaged political capital is if it were moral to release it.

Re:Wrong definition

[DaveV1.0]

No, that is YOUR definition and you want to use it because the real definition works against you. As to your hypothetical situation, you are setting up an impossible situation and saying "What if this impossible situation happened?" You may as well ask "What if all the oxygen in the world gathered at the north pole?" What if Snowden has a list of spies and has traded it for protection?

Re:Wrong definition

[amaurea]

I took the definition from http://www.thefreedictionary.com/whistleblower. Where did you get yours?

If he has a list of spies and sold it for protection, then that would be bad, and would not qualify as whistleblowing. But even if that were true it would not disqualify what we know he has revealed to the public as whistleblowing. Just like somebody can be a war hero and still beat his wife. A bad deed does not remove good ones - they should be considered separately.

PS: I'm new here at slashdot, so I don't know how plentiful mod points are. I haven't gotten any so far, so they seem pretty rare to me. Is it really plausible that somebody has enough mod points to consistently mod you down as you claim in your signature?

Re:Run coward run!!!!!

[The End Of Days]

What backlash?

Guess you missed the part where he's being charged with espionage.

He didn't even really say anything we didn't already know and have known for years.

You are aware there's a massive difference between tin-hatted "I know they're watching me" bullshit espoused on sites like this and the actual facts revealed in this matter, right? I hope you're aware, anyway. The alternative is that you're a moron.

Re:He is not a whistleblower

[The End Of Days]

This has nothing to do with an absolute right of privacy. The 4th Amendment clearly spells out the power the government has regarding search and seizure. This has nothing to do with a right to privacy. This has to do with a limitation of government power that according to Obama logic needed to be destroyed so our rights could be saved.

Let's take a close look

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized

Is it your position that the secret courts have warrants fitting this description for the information they are collecting?

Re:He is not a whistleblower

[Anonymous Coward]

You should learn the meaning of the term. He didn't expose criminal activity, waste, fraud, or abuse.

Spying on US citizens without cause is a criminal activity.

and in the process damaged the national security, political capital, and reputation of his country.

In the same way the reputation of a criminal is damaged when news of their wrongdoings are made public.

Re:Run coward run!!!!!

[Jeremy Erwin]

Its not unconstitutional until the supreme court says so. You don't define unconstitutional. Thats the way we run our government. If you disagree, get voters to change it, but you don't get to redefine the words any more than the government does.

Considering that the supreme court is part of the government, your distinctions mean little.

Arrest this idiot already

[Anonymous Coward]

If he had only kept it to Prism...
He's not in this to preserve our privacy. He's too busy shooting his mouth off about unrelated stuff that he may or may not have even had an involvement in. End result, put foot in mouth and kill everyone's credibility.

Re:Arrest this idiot already

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh.. and in case you think this is illegal, think again..
They did get FISA approval and seem to be working within the bounds they were given. Innocent until proven guilty, right?

Now, let's talk about other things legal that are MUCH more transparent and probably closer to home. Like the numerous kangaroo court jurisdictions that have a police force funded by traffic tickets. They lower the speed limit, put so many radar, laser and air patrols out that you're virtually guaranteed a ticket for even the slightest screw up. I'm pretty sure most of us would define this as legalized racketeering and if it weren't legal, you'd have some hotshot lawyer making a name for himself trying to win a RICO case.

Re:He is not a whistleblower

[yokem_55]

Thank's for quoting the 4th Amendment! If you read it carefully, it says person's house, papers and effects are only subject to "unreasonable" searches when a warrant has been requested and authorized. Going back about 45 years to the Katz decision, the courts have said a search is unreasonable when it violates a person's "reasonable expectation of privacy". Anything outside of that that "reasonable" expectation of privacy is fair game for the government without a court approved warrant. Anything within, that "reasonable expectation expectation of privacy" requires a warrant.

Subsequently, the courts have been trying to determine what stuff falls inside or outside that "reasonable expectation of privacy" and the most recent jurisprudence says that when you give your data to a third party, and you aren't paying them to store it for you, you don't have a reasonable expectation of privacy when it comes to that data and thus is subject to government subpoena without a warrant.

Now don't take my for all this - read what the eff has to say:
https://ssd.eff.org/your-computer/govt/fourth-amendment

He is requesting asylum in Ecuador

[mrspoonsi]

"The request was confirmed by Ecuador's foreign minister on Twitter." Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23023576

Re:Run coward run!!!!!

[Black Dragon]

Hope this treasonous coward gets extradited and spends the rest of his miserable life in jail. I'm not a fan of the NSA doing all of this, but anyone who didn't know it's been going on is a moron.

The only coward here is you, turd. "People" such as yourself who support blatantly unconstitutional garbage like the Patriot Act, TSA, stop-and-frisk and now this NSA spying are the filth who are dragging the United States down the road to a police state - if we aren't there already. In 10 years or less there will be drone strikes against suspected "criminals" and "terrorists" in the US itself, and there you will be, cheering it on from the sidelines like the mindless simpering piece of shit you always were.

The day that freedom finally returns to America, folks like you who supported tyranny should be held every bit as accountable as the bullies and thugs who carried it out. Without your disgusting kind, what they do would have been impossible.

Re: He is not a whistleblower

[yokem_55]

And here is more specifically about reasonable expectations of privacy:
https://ssd.eff.org/your-computer/govt/privacy

Show me your sources,

[westlake]

Iran, Afghanistan, Russia, China, North Korea... the list goes on... and none of them are building dozens of massive data centers for the sole purpose of spying wholesale on its own citizens.

How can you possibly know that what you saying is true or false?

Not that you need the high-tech data center if your people have no contact with the outside world.

You won't find people in North Korea checking Facebook or Twitter for the latest updates on the tense situation created by its leader, Kim Jong Un. That's because the nation of 24 million is largely shut out from the Internet. Few outside the government and military have ever been online.

''In North Korea, we don't see evidence that much of anyone has access,'' Jim Cowie, chief technology officer and co-founder of Renesys, which does global Internet measurement, told NBC News.

''You don't see banks or factories or universities attached to the Internet,'' he said. ''In North Korea, Internet is extremely limited. They don't have those resources. There's basically one service provider and that is state-controlled.''

The country's Internet access physically comes through from China, he said, supplemented ''sometimes'' by a satellite provider.

So much so that North Korea was named one of 12 ''enemies'' of the Internet last year by Reporters Without Borders, which monitors censorship globally. ''We still consider North Korea as an enemy of the Internet,'' Delphine Hagland, the group's director in Washington, D.C., told NBC News. Other countries making that list included China, Iran, Syria and Vietnam.

There aren't many other sources of information available in North Korea, which according to the CIA World Factbook, has ''no independent media,'' with ''radios and TVs ... pre-tuned to government stations.''

North Korea's Internet? What Internet? For most, online access doesn't exist

Re:He is not a whistleblower

[drinkypoo]

Those followers of "Faux news" have been against the tyranical government for a decade, and congratuations you have finally just agreed with them.

Bullshit. They are in favor of their particular flavor of tyranny. That's why they keep re-electing the incumbent, like everyone else.

But now they will not support you because you voted for it,

No, I didn't.

you attacked them,

Waaah.

and you called them racists.

That's because that's what they are.

Because you are a bigot,

I love it when bigots call me a bigot for pointing out their bigotry.

the government has effectively continued this kind of behavior

hahahahahahaha.

because instead of calling Obama a tyrant

I call Obama a tyrant every other day or so. Sometimes more.

you are calling other US citizens that had the opinion first idiots.

You are certainly an idiot.

USSR coined a term for people just like you. "Useful idiots".

So you made some truly stupid assumptions about me, and proceeded to make an ignorant post about it and some other things you know fuck-all about, and I'm the useful idiot? uh no, and also, uh no. But I can see why you're too cowardly to log in.

Actually, the words "Secret Courts"

[Marrow]

And "Secret Judges" Seem a lot scarier. I thought the whole point of holding a "court" was publicly finding the truth.
The fact that people whose job it is to "know history" and to "know better" set these up is just icing on a very scary cake.

Re:Actually, the words "Secret Courts"

[Anonymous Coward]

Secret Judges
http://www.stopos.info/

Re:Run coward run!!!!!

[dcollins117]

Its not unconstitutional until the supreme court says so. You don't define unconstitutional.

So rather than to use my own brain, I'm to let a third party decide for me what I think? Wow, that takes a load off my mind. Thanks.

Cold up there

[Tablizer]

If he goes to Russia, he might get snowed in.

Re:Run coward run!!!!!

[DarkOx]

Why because the the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court alone decided it has the right to determine what is and what is not Constitutional? Where the fuck is it written in the Constitution that the Supreme court has such power. Clue: it inst.

I'm Gonna Get You Sukkah

[FrankDrebin]

And the Ecuador Consulate in Moscow has just cleared out a storage room. Coincidence?

Possible answer in Strauss-Howe Theory

[istartedi]

If you subscribe to the generational theory of Strauss-Howe, it might be because the generation that would employ the "take to the streets" tactic hasn't quite been born yet. The previous iteration of that (Baby Boomers) is aging. The generations currently in power or rising to power are likely to pursue less ostentatious (but no less effective) strategies.

Of course theories like this may be complete bunk; but it's an interesting starting point. Generation X and forward are sick and tired of hearing their parents and grandparents reminisce about how they marched at Berkeley, and are jaded because all of that (in their minds) didn't really accomplish very much even if they did manage to stop Vietnam and end the draft. What have you done for us lately? There's more than one way to skin a cat. Either that, or it has to get bad, really rotten... just in time for the next generation of marchers to storm the gates.

Re:He is not a whistleblower

[Anonymous Coward]

Your whole argument rests on the supreme court being able to read the constitution and understand it the way any native speaker would with just a smattering of pre revolutionary war history. I wouldn't assume that, they have been more than willing to use the bill of rights to wipe their asses on every other subject.

Not simple good vs. evil nations, but ....

[King_TJ]

At the same time, there are degrees of evil. IMO, a central government of ANY type is inherently evil. Yet I still won't advocate the philosophy of the anarchists out there, simply because I think their idea of a "better way" to do things vastly underestimates the number of people on this planet who don't think logically or act in what is actually their own best interest in the long-run (opting instead for short-term gains at the expense of others around them). Human nature is what, ultimately, makes central government a necessary evil.

The reason I rather like the original idea of a Democratic Republic the United States' founders envisioned was the attempt to place checks and balances on power while giving the general public a meaningful voice. The Constitution and Bill of Rights spelled out a recognition of *innate* human rights that no government could grant or take away. All in all, that makes it a far less evil system than most of the competing forms of government in use.

Unfortunately, I think we're seeing exactly what some of the Founders cautioned ..... that it might not be able to last more than 200 years or so, as people became complacent with the prosperity enjoyed under the system and as corrupt individuals finally opened up enough loopholes to circumvent the checks and balances, and begin breaking down the system for personal gain.

Honestly, the entire concept of a country like the USA operating secret spy agencies is one I've never really been comfortable with. I think such a thing goes against everything we claim to stand for. (If our nation is so prosperous and successful on its own merits, why the need to go on the offense, trying to steal secrets from other nations while professing to care about such concepts as privacy or individual freedoms?) I can see running a defensive, anti-spying group -- but nothing else, except perhaps in time of war. (And unfortunately, even war itself has become a "loophole" for our government. Seems we like to stay in a perpetual state of declared war on somebody, so politicians are free to do questionable things under the claim of the "National Security" need.)

The enemy of your enemy is your friend ....

[King_TJ]

I already see the White House big-shots trying to spin Snowden as a fraud, since he's running away for refuge in nations that don't believe in any of what he claims to be fighting for.

But hey, he's just being practical at this point. As he said himself in an interview, when a major world power decides they're out to get you, they'll eventually succeed if they try hard enough. That doesn't mean it's smart to remain a sitting duck and make yourself easy to snuff out -- which is exactly what staying in the U.S. would do.

It doesn't really matter where in the world he chooses to travel. The media spin, the lies, and the propaganda won't change or come at a reduced rate. The irony of him being temporarily safer in nations like China than here just further illustrates how deep the problem goes -- and buys Snowden some more time to argue for his side of the case in the press.

I mean, how can our country's leaders even keep a straight face when declaring Snowden should come back here voluntarily to get his day in court? Everything they've done regarding the spying is handled by a SECRET court -- so there's no way he'd have a fair trial. Essentially, they'd screw him over just as badly as nations like China do all the time to the people opposing their own governments.

Are USA Federal Employees Citizens of the USA ?

[Anonymous Coward]

To gain U.S.A. Federal employment when a security access and clearance are required the applicant MUST be a by birth citizen of the U.S.A.

After initial background investigations, if cleared provisionally, an applicant takes an Oath To The Federal Government Of The Unites States Of America.

This is required.

By acknowledging and taking an Oath To The Federal Government does the 'employee' become a citizen of the Federal Government and thus loose citizenship to the U.S.A. ?

I.E. An Oath To The Federal Government is not an Oath To U.S.A. !

I.E. The Federal Government is a 'country within a country' and not bound by the laws of the U.S.A. in particular the U.S.A. Constitution, nor the laws of any State of the U.S.A. nor local laws and heaven forbid not bound by any international law !

An Inconvenient Truth Discovered !

This explains the predator psychological behaviors of Obama and his employees of his Fascist Regime.

The Citizens Of The Federal Government Are NOT Citizens Of The U.S.A. !

Hero? I don't think he's the definition of a hero

[Anonymous Coward]

I am not one who thinks this guy is a hero. While I do agree for whistle blowing, why do it in this way? What exactly are you saying to the American public when you blow your whistle and potentially lug around very sensitive national secrets threatening to release them and show them FIRSTLY to countries which at one point or another were an enemy of the USA?

To me, those are nothing heroic. Considering I have had plenty of my family members in the past and present generations whom have given their time and in some cases their lives for our country, I do not think it is right in the least to be releasing these national secrets in this fashion at all. Much less running to countries to avoid the United States by going to 'enemy states' and places that potentially actively undermine the US.

He is a traitor in my opinion, and NOT because he blew the whistle, BUT because the way HE'S RUNNING TO 'ENEMY' STATES ACTIVELY. Why not blow the whistle with some of the lawmakers/senators/groups within the US and let the heads roll from within, this is information that was large enough that all the news networks would of caught on to like a hawk on prey. I think that would of gathered him enough protection to be safe while blowing the whistle. But this... running to Hong Kong, then to Russia, and now some South American country... all while hiding behind the briefcase of data. How is this heroic?

Try for a second to stop rooting for the guy just because he blew a whistle but also pause and look at the whole picture and what he has done ever since doing so and what he's doing now. Do you agree with running away and especially taking these routes and actions? Is that all automagically okay to do because he blew a whistle? There still needs to be accountability for the whistle blower and if he's patriotic that means him standing his ground in his own country! Is it instantly okay to say okay since I blew the whistle on a big government program that other countries are most likely doing as well, to say okay enemy of the US here is all the stuff we are doing that is bad, patch all your security holes, and look badly on the US. Those guys will just say thanks, patch the holes, and continue their own covert operations. I'm sorry but there is a reason Russia has the whole mutually assured destruction program with us still to this day, there we don't trust either enough to let our guard down. This gives them a 1-up, and it get's this guy, all your praise? That just comes off as you guys not having your own country in mind? What if we went to war with China and Russian, where would you stand then? You have to pick a side, he has apparently picked his, and it's not on our side judging by his actions.

His actions, would probably get him shot with the current countries he defected to today if he was one of their citizens wronging them!

I just can't respectfully agree that he is a hero of any kind, I'm sorry but to me his actions prove quite otherwise what he is. I hope he gets caught, and whatever the punishment is because of his actions, so be it - let it be a military tribunal as this deals with national secrets. Thinking about my family and our future, this guy and his actions can serve to hurt relationships between our country and the world. You think the Chinese and Russian's aren't doing all they can to spy on us? Come on, that's the world we leave in, wherever there is a perceived enemy, there will be spying and espionage. The more important question is I wonder why we don't see whistle blowers exposing stuff like this in those countries? You think programs like this don't exist in those countries? Get your head out of the sand! This guy is trying to make himself out to be a good guy, if so, stop running and face the music in your home country that you would 'die for'. So far I see a lot of running through his actions.

Who's to say that China or Russia, wouldn't say, hand over the briefcase, otherwise we ship your butt back to the USA and keep the briefcase anyway to comb over

Re:Run coward run!!!!!

[quenda]

Frankly, Sparky.. I think he's a flippin' national hero, on a par with many of the heros of the first American revolution,

But the American revolutionaries were traitors by definition, waging war against their then nation and sovereign. They only escaped hanging by winning, thanks to France.

Snowden has not committed treason, so not quite on par.

Re:Arrived in Moscow...left with Venezuelan diplom

[Anonymous Coward]

No shit. Venezuelan women are the most gorgeous chicks I've ever seen anywhere, and I've traveled in 28 countries. Every girl is raised to become a Miss Universe and most of them would qualify! Not only that, they are smart, funny and extremely nice people! I would not mind to retire there myself...

Government spying?

[gamer4Life]

Government spies on citizens.
A citizen leaks out that government is spying on citizens.
Government charges citizen for spying.

Re:Clinton: "security, privacy mutually reinforcin

[Anonymous Coward]

We are all qualified to judge the morality of our and our governments actions, and no-one has a right to assert a monopoly power over your conscience.

Re:He is not a whistleblower

[Anonymous Coward]

I use FedEX, UPS and even the quasi-public USPS to communicate on a regular basis. I have no fewer rights when I use these third parties than I would if I instead ran my own version of Pony Express, acted as my own private air courier, or created a sophisticated nation-wide network of relays consisting of strings, cans and eight year old operators who are contracted for reimbursement in candy.

The interbutts is no different. Is there an expectation of privacy? Well, that's a tad different, since that privacy is often sold away in exchange for free service. Doesn't mean these communications aren't protected by the 1st, and 4th. Want to intercept my parcels or my packets? Get a warrant.

Re:He is not a whistleblower

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank's for quoting the 4th Amendment! If you read it carefully, it says person's house, papers and effects are only subject to "unreasonable" searches when a warrant has been requested and authorized.

I'm still waiting for someone to explain how YOU or YOUR stuff is getting searched or seized without warrant.

You may want to go talk to the Internet companies involved here and let them know they have YOUR stuff.

Re:He is not a whistleblower

[Anonymous Coward]

they can now easily prove that their communications have in fact been targeted

I'd like to know how you could actually target Americans if you really wanted to, knowing there is no America on the Internet and you are just an IP.

The Internet was built this way for Christ's sake. Sorry, but when these companies data is looked at, it is not "American's", and people who download music on P2P sites remind us an IP is not a person, OH - unless it's the NSA looking, then suddenly it's a person of known nationality even!!

Expat Hospitality

[betterprimate]

Every American abroad should do their due diligence and harbor this patriot.

Re:He is not a whistleblower

[betterprimate]

e.g. Having love for your country and countrymen != love and blind trust in your government.

It is American to distrust your government. Skepticism is the sanest of all perspectives; you can find it in the fisherman, the rancher, even behind the factory worker. The most reasonable person is the one who nurtures our food and whose days revolves around the sun and whose livelihood is ensured by a good harvest.

They stand just as tall and still as the wheat.

He is having a race to Ecuador with Assange

[Yvanhoe]

"Hey, look Julian! I am in a plane!"

"Fuck you, just wait that I get elected and get my out-of-jail card"

Re:Run coward run!!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

He is absolutley a national hero.
The question is, of which nation.

Criminal

[Anonymous Coward]

So does anyone in the USA other than the government think he is a criminal?

I suspect not many.
Therefore would that not indicate the government machine neither has the best interests of its citizens at heart, nor truly reflects the will of the people.

It's somewhat ironic the US is called the most democratic country in the world and fights wars in the name of democracy.

I get the impression as an outsider the US govt cares far more about the US government than for the people the US government is supposed to be protecting.

Re:Run coward run!!!!!

[DarkOx]

That all might be true the right now if we want real change, a message needs to be sent. It needs to be a clear message. Just because you work at three letter, and someone said the word "terrorist" does not mean you are not still responsible for your actions.

Ecuador

[ThatsNotPudding]

Apparently, his final desitination will be Ecuador. My grave concern is that it will be child's play for Seal Team __ to swoop in and snatch Snowden back to the US (probably Gitmo just to make him even more of an example).

Yes, it will be an international dust-up for a week or two, but then what? Ecuador declares war on the US?

It will just be more proof that the US government can do whatever it wants to whomever it wants, where ever it wants, and no one can stop them.

But yes, even we have fallen into the trap of focusing on the man instead of the cancer he has exposed.

ÑÐÐоÐÐÑ&#

[Anonymous Coward]

President Putin then made a short statement on TV inviting President Obama to "ÑÐÐоÐÐÑÑOE моРÑÐÑÐÐ"

Could he already be in Iceland?

[psy0rz]

"Organization Pirate Party Norway claims that spy accused Edward Snowden landed at Oslo Gardermon airport last night." http://www.tnp.no/norway/panorama/3802-pirate-party-norway-snowden-passed-through-norway-to-iceland

Could he be already in iceland?

[psy0rz]

"Organization Pirate Party Norway claims that spy accused Edward Snowden landed at Oslo Gardermon airport last night." http://www.tnp.no/norway/panorama/3802-pirate-party-norway-snowden-passed-through-norway-to-iceland Stangely enough rt.com havent reported this yet.

Re:Run coward run!!!!!

[johnlcallaway]

Yes ... yes I am. Morons for thinking that the right way to do something is to break federal laws and then run like a coward and not accept responsibility. People like Rosa Parks are heroes, they broke the rules and stood in place so they could further challenge it instead of running like a yellow dog with it's tail between it's leg.

A real hero would have stayed and further challenged the system. Let justice take it's course for his actions, and fight it like a man instead of cowering like a little scared boy.

I see nothing that makes him a hero. No more than robbing a bank and giving money to the poor does.

It's been known for over a DECADE (remember the patriot act???) that the NSA was monitoring foreign calls. There have been numerous news articles about it. Get real people, if you didn't know that then you are truly ignorant.

Re:Run coward run!!!!!

[Schmorgluck]

Its not okay for anyone to break the law willingly or knowingly.

By this standard, what Rosa Parks did was not okay, what the Railway Underground did was not okay, etc.

But for some reason the US government blatantly violating the Fourth Amendment both in words and in spirit seems to be okay to you, since you are stating that it shouldn't have been revealed (even though it wasn't much of a revelation).

I'm strongly law-abiding, but if I ever end up in a situation in which the law and my personal principles are in conflict, I'll follow the latter.

Re:He is not a whistleblower

[kisak]

First, Congress writes the laws of the land. The US system of course has checks and balance, where the Supreme Court can rule something unconstitutional. This means that a law is nullified until Congress either rewrite part of the constitution if the support is there (the consitutition is not a holy text you know), or a new Congress has to wait for the oldest SCOTUS judges dies. E.g. the extreme rightwing tilt of the current court explains why the moderat McCain-Feingold law was struck down, and the last election shows why it is time for age to do its thing. Of course, the current president chose who the new judges will be, again a part of the check and balance.

Now to Snowden, he is clearly not a whistleblower. What he is doing is civil disobedience, in the spirit of e.g. MLK when the civil rights movement broke immoral laws. Because, so far it has not been shown that NSA is doing anything illegal. And it is infuriating to read and hear commentators and journalists that claim what NSA is doing is either illegal, surprising or has been kept hidden from public. What the hell did all these people think the "Patriot Act" was all about?!

What was illegal was the early wiretaps done by the Bush administration; the solution was to expand the Patriot Act. The people back then that protested the Patriot Act were willefied by the Bush administration ("either you are with us, or you are against us"), and got a collective shrug from the corporate media. I just got to shake my head at liberals that are surprised that president Obama will use all the legal tools available to him to keep the homeland secure (thats is part of the job description), or at the republican media like fox that were so eager to defend the Bush teams illegal wiretaps and expansion of the Patriot Act who could not understand back then that Congress should pass laws that are acceptable whatever party the president belongs.

And no, the current rightwing SCOTUS will not find the NSA activities unconstitutional.

So dont feel so smug because you at least are against the collection of meta-data that NSA is doing. Inform yourself and the voters around you, and take responsibility to elect people to congress that will not be pushed around by lobbyist or the latest non-story in the corporat media (only one senator was strong enough to vote against the Patriot Act - Feingold - and he did not get reelected which says a lot about the voters).

Congress is at the moment disfunctional, not least because of a republican party and republican voters that does not seem to believe in anything but Obama bad and to cut taxes for the rich. But this is not good for either of the major parties or for the country. What is needed is functioning opposition party to challenge the ruling party and to bring about an informed debate about how to make the country stronger. Because these are difficult questions: how to find the right balance between decreasing the risk for terrorist attacks while protecting the privacy of the population. Or how to have a transparent government that you can trust, while ensuring that the information that will harm national security is kept away from potential terrorists. There are no easy answers.

Maybe Obama is correct when he states that this is the right time to start such an informed discussions? But then we have to move beyond voters looking at politics as a game where your team is winning or loseing. The politicians you want is the ones with principles but also who will look for the best possible compromise. And we need move beyond a corporate media that just reports he-said/she-said. What is needed is a media that calls out stupid, is able to point out consequences of a law for the future, and who has the courage to pick up difficult topics (instead of scrambling when the NSA story broke in a UK newspaper).

Things can only improve if we move beyond slogans like "government bad, deficits bad" to e.g. discussions on the right level of use of private and extremely expensive contractors to do

Dont get on that plane

[peawormsworth]

I would not want to be on that plane when it is diverted mid-flight to a secret European prison.

If the press knows he is flying to Moscow, you can be certain that there are certain paid agents who will also be attending that flight.

Hey! It's all IT BS!!!

[CHIT2ME]

I've read all the posts on this subject on Slashdot. IMO, if this idiot had stopped at releasing the fact that the NSA is stockpiling phone calls and emails of U.S. citizens, I would probably be understanding of his take on this matter. But, get real! I've known since 2005 that the government has been intercepting these things at will. What's the news in what this guy pushing? Unfortunately, he didn't stop at just exposing an already known fact of government snooping, no!, he went on to release to the Chinese and now probably the Russians, how we are getting intel from them. This, I believe, is where he crossed the line and became a TRAITOR! I could have forgiven his indiscretion of revealing the NSA intelligence as the "frothing at the mouth" rantings of a starry-eyed believer in the idea that the U.S. is pure as the driven snow. However, when he passed the other info to the Sino's and the Russians, he crossed my line of tolerance. I now consider him a traitor to the U.S. and believe anything "bad" that happens to him is justified. What really pisses me off are all these IT people who believe that since he was one of them, he must be pardoned for his transgressions. In my profession as a Pharmacist here in the U.S. you will find very little tolerance of those Pharmacists who succumb to the allure of abusing drugs. I would hope that in the future the IT professionals would show no tolerance to those who violate non-disclosure agreements which they have agreed to and signed. I know that in the professional world that Pharmacists and Doctors have to take an oath which covers non-disclosure of information. Maybe, it's time that IT professionals adopt a similar view. As an example, how would you IT guys like it if your Doctor or Pharmacist decided that it was in the public's interest to know that you were on testosterone therapy or being treated for AIDS contracted in your "unusual" sexual practices? Think about it!!!