Slashdot Mirror
Wikileaks Aiding Snowden - Chinese Social Media Divided - Relations Strained
cold fjord writes "Despite the US cancelling his passport, Edward Snowden continues his travels aided by Wikileaks, and is leaving a trail of strained diplomatic relations in his wake. It appears China gifted the issue to Russia. From Yahoo: 'Lawyer Albert Ho, ... a Hong Kong legislator ... told reporters he was approached by Snowden several days ago, and that the American had sought assurances ... whether he could leave the city freely if he chose to do so... Snowden later told Ho an individual claiming to represent the Hong Kong government had contacted him and indicated he should leave the city, and wouldn't be stopped ... Ho said he believed the middleman was acting on Beijing's orders.' From the NYT: Julian Assange, ...said in an interview ... 'that he had raised Mr. Snowden's case with Ecuador's government and that his group had helped arrange the travel documents.' From WSJ: 'Edward Snowden has generated more than a million posts on one of China's biggest social media platforms... Sina Weibo, a popular Chinese microblogging service, exploded with activity on Sunday as Mr. Snowden left ... Mr. Snowden was hailed as a hero ... last week, but posts on Sunday and Monday were divided... "All crows are black," said a number of users, citing an Chinese old saying, to describe both American and Chinese government's surveillance programs. ... "Snowden has helped China so much. Why did we let him go?" said one ... Some suggested that China should keep Mr. Snowden as a weapon against repeated accusations of China hacking U.S. companies. More extreme users complained that China is "too soft on the U.S." "Russia is a real strong country to accept him," ... Another popular term: "hot potato," reflecting relief that Hong Kong wouldn't have to stand against U.S. efforts to take him into custody. Some users criticized Mr. Snowden for fleeing.' From the Guardian: 'Snowden's escape from Hong Kong infuriated US politicians, while China focused on condemning Washington over his latest disclosures, which suggested the NSA had hacked into Chinese mobile phone companies ... Moscow was also drawn into the controversy after it emerged that Snowden's passport had been revoked before he left Hong Kong and he did not have a visa for Russia. But Russia appeared indifferent to the uproar, with one official saying Snowden was safe from the authorities as long as he remained in the transit lounge at the city's Sheremetyevo airport. Dmitry Peskov, spokesman for the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, said: "I know nothing."' From ABC: Snowden registered for the flight to Havana that leaves Moscow on Monday..."
Snowden has alerted the whole World that our freedom is a sham, and that our governments treat our privacy with total contempt. I hope he survives this episode and will be seen in the future as somebody who did more for regular people than any politician.
Smivs on the intertubes!
I wish they'd go after the NSA with as much fervor. But I guess it's easier to punish an individual.
Also.. With America 'not prying into the lives of it's own citizens', and the UK doing pretty much the same. Doesn't anybody see that they can 'share intelligence' and get the whole picture without having to break the rules?
UK: Oops, seem I picked up all of the emails any US citizen ever send in my spying bureau. Here you go US, a copy. Do you have the copy of all the UK people's communication with you?
Again, the witch hunt after Snowden is just to distract from the main issues.
At least some countries still stand for liberty.
Snowden is not on the plane to cuba.
And this means any secrets he may know about anything will be handed over to them. At this point he is headed to Cuba where he can give whatever Top Secret information he can to the Cubans. How can anyone see him as a hero if he's helping a government recognized as a dictatorship to build up it's spy machine capabilities, to defeat US spy machine capabilities, or both?
What impact will his knowledge have on Syrian rebel forces? What impact will his knowledge have on troops? Does he know troop positions? Whatever he knows the US government must now assume they know. I just hope not too many innocent civilians get hurt from Snowdens decisions.
Catch Me If You Can - The Remake, staring Edward Snowden as Frank Abagnale Jr., Barack Obama as Carl Hanratty and Christopher Walken as Frank Abagnale.
29yo SWM seeking girl for serious relationship
no high school diploma
walked away from a job with one of the world's premier consulting companies
being charged for espionage by the US Government and can never return to the USA
may spend the rest of his life in jail
on the run
living on handouts from foreign governments
i'm sure the girls are backstabbing each other to get to him
According to the Guardian, Snowdon is not on the plane to Havana.
Google (and Yahoo, Microsoft, Apple, Facebook, Dropbox) may not have been "evil" in following the (admittedly secret) court orders of the government. But Google to live up to its claims of "don't be evil" -- if it wants to show even a tiny bit of contrition -- by publicly stating that they believe that Snowden did a heroic act in opening up to public discourse the existence of secret court orders not merely compelling the company to hand over information, but preventing the companies concerned from exercising their first amendment rights to free speech by revealing the orders.
Then they can fund a small legal defense for Snowden from their enormous budgets. They can even justify it to their shareholders as a small speculative investment in order to overturn PRISM and thereby stop the (I'm guessing) non-insubstantial budget they currently spend on fulfilling the PRISM requests.
Actions count more than words.
A) in april obama secretly signed an agreement to penalize whistleblowers even worse then previous all while later saying he was going ot help them ....
B) since that signing he has also arrested 6-8 more people
NOW are you gonna hang around that stupid nation while they pull nazi shit like this....
C) if you htink its not bad iup in canada the information services has grown 15% to almost 4000 people thats 8 times more then nazis had for propaganda in world war 2
ALL OF THIS IS GETTING OUT OF HAND AND UNLESS EVERYONE WAKES THE FUCK UP AND DOES SOMETHING REAL INA STREET IT WONT END.
Why the fuck did my grand father fight the nazis to save a few jews is that all? NO REALLY so these same jews with there buddies can turn our lives into nazi germany with all the bells and whistles of no rights.
Hope he speaks Russian. Seems that his stay in Russia may have inexplicably been extended if this news report is correct.
Select from tblFriends where interesting >= 4;
The man is a traitor and an attention whore trying to inflict maximum damage on his country. If he were honestly a simple consciousness objector as claimed he would have never fled to begin with.
History has a proud tradition of actual consciousness objectors willingly going to prison when they feel they need to make a point and stand up for something. More than a few such objectors later became judged by history as heroes (MLK etc).
My guess: he's off to Vietnam, where he will join the entourage of the Ecuadorian foreign minister for the return to Quito this week.
Paul Gillingwater
MBA, CISSP, CISM
Do you think they'll protect him for free? Are you this naive? Do you think they won't interrogate him and offer him protection in exchange for his knowledge and support?
Whatever classified documents he had, they now have. It means they can now build what the US built in their countries to crack down on their activists. If he destroyed the documents (that would be the responsible thing to do) then they'll get as much out of him as he can remember which still could be a lot of information. They want him for his brain and they want his secrets, they aren't protecting him out of some human rights or civil rights bs.
He's not in Iceland, he's on his way to Cuba. Think carefully about where he is going and tell me do you honestly believe they will respect his human rights or anyones? They will treat him like a hero as long as he's giving them information which can help them adjust or improve their own operations. They'll also be tipped off about US operations which would put US operations and of course US assets / troops at risk.
Was he lying about knowing the missions and identities of assets and operations? If he was not lying about this then all of those lives and operations could be put at risk. Snowden will be used as a weapon not just against the NSA and US government but against US troops and even civilians such as rebels fighting in civil wars funded by the US who don't even know how the Snowden case will affect their effort.
A hero protects lives, I fail to see how Snowden can be a hero if he's in custody of the SVR or whatever foreign intelligence has him. What could he be telling them as we speak? He may not have told them everything yet but it's only a matter of time before he tells them everything he knows because he's not going to be given an option not to. So let's hope he doesn't know half the shit he claimed to know in that interview.
I would like to point out that Edward Snowden not only has a physical resemblance to the' Gordon Freeman' character in the Half-Life Game Series, but has effectively become 'Anti-Citizen One'- in real life.
You seem to presume a lot, and based on what? What evidence do you have that he will give everything to the Cubans?
Just dumping it all out is stupid. Even an intelligent sociopath won't do that but instead use the information as bargaining chips.
I could also make similar remarks as yours and ask "who is paying you to make posts like these?".
You seem to presume a lot, and based on what? What evidence do you have that he will give everything to the Cubans?
Just dumping it all out is stupid. Even an intelligent sociopath won't do that but instead use the information as bargaining chips.
I could also make similar remarks as yours and ask "who is paying you to make posts like these?".
You act as if he's the one in control of his fate.
for fucks sake he is a sysadmin that came across some power point slides not james fucking bond
Seeing all the implicit (eyes being turned) and explicit (ecuador, wikileaks, others) help he's getting, one could almost get the impression that the US Government (not people) is seriously unpopular around the world.
And getting revenge on a bully is always particularly sweet.
Dmitry Peskov, spokesman for the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, said: "I know nothing."'
Who wrote this, summary William, Shatner?
Good people go to bed earlier.
His actions are non sequitur.
Don't use terms if you don't know what they mean.
He revealed injustices being committed by the US government; that's more than good enough for me. The US might not be the worst country, but it is the country I live in, so of course we're going to focus on it more than other countries.
Hanssen and Ames were handing over things like troop strength, locations of CIA operatives, etc. to the Soviets for cash. They weren't blowing the whistle to the press on an illegal internal spying program. Pretty big difference there.
The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
And the Russians have the ability to get every secret out of him and because of what he said in the interview they have every reason to want to.
the reason the usa is ranked 16th to liv ein the world is your human rights record is so abysmal that it drops you way down , the fact you have poor math and reading skills also contributes and lack of health care also.
9 of top ten nations to live in all have free health care or a strong variation of it.
I'm going to just assume you're a spin doctor, as otherwise i'd have to be rude and assume you are an idiot.
a) Snowden did not board the plane to cuba
b) anyone who considers cuba since the soviet union fell apart a threat to america is a moron.
c) nothing snowden could have known about troop positions or other such actions or involvement would have been left the same from shortly after the second he leaked his name. This is assuming he even had such knowledge, given his position his access would have been fairly general and non-specific as far as military matters are concerned.
Do you know who else liked to say, "I know nothing"?
http://im0n.clkimg.com/i/gl/281/281726.jpg
This page at the Pirate Times provides live updates.
Last two updates at the moment:
14:45 (CEST) Ecuadorian Ambassador in Vietnam states confirms that Edward Snowden has requested asylum and mentions that the USA often refused to extradite criminals including bankers.
13:10 (CEST) A plane bound for Cuba with a booking for Snowden and another person has left Moscow but with Ed Snowden apparently not on board according to Russian Television English Service
more than likely
And you're "more than likely" paid by the US government to write this stuff. Now prove me that I'm wrong.
This is the situation where weasel words come in very handy.
Ezekiel 23:20
Uh... most likely none, none, and no? Snowden knew, and revealed, what the US government was up to, their methods and scope. There's no indication that he knows the contents of the intelligence, and given that he was not an analyst, I doubt he really knows any of it. Now it's reasonable to think that his revelations might be able to help foreign governments harden their security against US spying, but so would say, publishing a paper on crypto.
"And this means any secrets he may know about anything will be handed over to them."
And those secrets would be?... I mean what else is the NSA doing that's no legal? I can see from the Boundless Informant leak, that they collected 3 billion US intercepts in March alone, and I can see that *didn't* include FISA court ones, because Boundless Informant didn't cover the FISA ones (see the FAQ with that leak).
So we haven't heard the full story here.
What was it? IRS data they grabbed? US Credit Cards? Ticket data? Political data? Faces of protestors? Commercial data? What?!
Also does anyone know his Bitcoin address so we can donate some California certified cash?
Exactly what country do you expect him to go to? There are only about 5-6 countries in the world that aren't the total lapdogs of the U.S. government (or at least in bed with them). That doesn't exactly leave him a lot of options if he wants to remain free and not have all his (very important) information just buried again.
The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
Is it just the USA that doesn't understand the traditional use of Passports and Visas?
A Visa was only required to 'Enter' the destination country. As Snowden was never going to enter Russia (transit lounges are no-mans land) he didn't need one. No reason to prevent him flying to Russia.
A Passport should not be needed to leave a country. Afterall, you are LEAVING, what cause to stop you?
On arrival in Russa, he's not entering the country, therefore no need for a Passport again.
I'm not aware of any other country that has destroyed the free travel rights of people as much as the US. Even to fly from Canada to Cuba the US has the 'aquired' the right to deny you flights, because it's close enough to their airspace. And as the airlines are so terrified of loosing landing rights to US international airports they comply.
norway
finland
sweden
denmark
switzerland
canada
all rank far above the usa....
for living and rights
This is a country, where a significant percentage of the population thought that Saddam Hussein was partially responsible for September 11th. Where a justification for being in Iraq, was to fight terrorists in Iraq, instead of in America. In America, where HALF!!! the population has a Facebook account. In America, where most shoppers use 'reward cards', that tracking customer spending.
Now, when it is revealed that NSA is wholesale, and secretly, spying on the American public to hinder terrorists, there is an outrage? Americans willing gave up their privacy to big business a long time ago. They don't deserve privacy from the people that are fighting the giant war on terrorism. Senators on the Intelligence committee were aware of the extent of NSA spying. Of course the spying is kept secret from the general public. If terrorists were aware of the spying, they'd be even more careful. al qaeda members are very careful. Osama bin laden stopped using his satellite phone, when the New York Times revealed that the NSA has tapping Osama's satellite phone. The leaker thought he knew better than the Senators on the intelligence committee what choices the American people have made, and he deserves to die.
I'm sure the local intelligence services would be interested in speaking to him, but I think it's much more likely governments will consider what they always consider first with any sort of newsworthy foreign policy: domestic politics. There are places where pissing off the US and standing up to US government power will go down very well with the voters, especially in places where it fits with the governing party's narrative.
It is my personal opinion that Snowden (and even Assange) will only be safe as long as Correa is in power in Quinto.
But as a history of Equador (and frankly entire Latin America) predicts from the past -- it will not be too long before the power will change due to hunta (as 1972-1979), or removal from the office (like Abdalá Bucaram) or a continues power struggle (Rosalía Arteaga / Fabián Alarcón).
Either way, Equadorian history predicts that the next government will be pro-American.
Out !! What is Cuba going to do ?? Launch a few 1955 Bel Air missiles ??
No, they won't 'keep him for free', but will gladly offer him sanctaury, particularly as his presence there is going to be a constant source of annoyance to the US, a country they dislike and distrust.
And no, I don't think I'm naive.
Snowden has let us all see that none of our data or online activity is remotely private and that our information is everything and everywhere. Because various governments share intelligence, it means for example that a UK citizen (whose data is sort of 'legally protected' from UK surveillance agencies) could find his data being forwarded to him by say the US government. Because shared intelligence from a foreign source is not subject to the level of legal scrutiny and constraint as information gathered by UK sources, it could immediately become more accessable to UK agencies. And this works the other way round. It means that safeguards put in place to 'protect' a country's own citizens can be more easily circumvented.
Smivs on the intertubes!
Details of *domestic* spying will put no US asset at risk. Except maybe a few server farms and ISP links?
This is a US problem. I stopped caring about a week ago. If he's broke the law, issue an international arrest warrant. If he hasn't, don't.
And that's quite possibly the worst /. summary I've ever seen in that it would take me about 5 readings to even get the gist of what you are trying to convey. Quotes should be minimal, pertinent, and not obscure the actual fact of the matter, and summaries should be short, enticing, easy-to-read statings of the matter and (maybe) a small, relevant quote or two at most.
you called it "aiding", not "helping"?
On the other hand, a native English speaker and in addition a computer engineer could be very useful in the Russian educational system.
Only individuals acting on their own moral code can help
I agree comrade! So when are YOU going to put down your own money and/or life on the line to help your fellow individuals around the world?
It's clear that the socialist groupthink mob that is slashdot is not the best place for you to help individuals. Look at your karma, look at your limited posting privileges. You need to get out there (again, one your own dime, as you are no leech, no sir)
With your wisdom and principles, I think you'd be a great general of the revolution. So when are you going to fund that private mercenary army of yours to fight the various governments of the world? I know you're not a man of violence, but if the governments of the world are as evil and violent-loving as you keep telling us, they will come at us with violence, and so you will need that army. I'd do it myself, but unfortunately, me (and most individuals) just aren't as rich or smart or principled as you are.
Or perhaps the people of the world don't like getting spied on, and are willing to look the other way if the man who notified them is passing through.
He would not be in the position of having to hand out secrets to secure his own safety if the US government had been about to arrest him as a traitor.
Can you blame the man for running if his choices are likely to be a sealed sham trial and prison or execution vs skipping out and betraying the people who betrayed him?
From there:
Hoo boy. I'm almost beginning to feel sorry for the US diplomatic establishment. After HK's eloquent fuck-you-and-lolno to the states, EC brings a bigger one.
I don't think Clinton's ordering the spicy soup today—plain noodles will do. Something about the excess perspiration these past few days...
You can hold down the "B" button for continuous firing.
They already knew what he knew.
They are only protecting him to make USA look bad, its all PR.
But hey, if USA has access to ALL communications, and all inhouse secret emails and source codes of ALL corporations to all commericial products in dev/beta/selling, then they have the upper hand.
ie. If the NSA has all the source code of a competitor to USA corp, then they give it to the CEO of a F100 corp.
Gee, why are usa corps so successful, its because they get inside info from the NSA.
Even if that info is just pricing and time to market.
ie, if helping Apple gains 50 billion in sales, and hurts Samsung, the NSA will, since it directly benefits pension funds, and the whole USA.
But the number one reason the USA is top dog, is the federal reserve and their unlimited money printing illegal rights, that every one can say, FU, we arent paying our debts back coz its funny money.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
watch it bud, or else we'll have a story how John McAfee is illegally mining bitcoins with a ::Cue::Cat and almost has enough stockpiled to buy *pple!
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
He will have no peace.
your joking right?
thats why they want all that warantless wiretapping and crap cause it will lead to warrantless everything and then you have no rights period
gitmo sound about right there? how long you gonna hold people that havent been charged
im beginning to think we need a nuremburg trial for the presidents that allow this crap..and yes were gonna hang everyone of you sick undemocratic fucks
if you know of a country that offers citizens stronger assurances and greater practical liberties, we'd love to hear about it ...and here we have the Ugly American, doing his best to keep the stereotype of the Ugly American alive and well.
(Does it not occur to him that what he said comes across as naive arrogance to non-Americans? Of course not. That's why he's an Ugly American!)
Preferably, those liberties should extend to immigrants as well as natives.
The US is the only place I have ever been where that is apparently not the case. I was quite shocked to hear politicians and government officials on the news at one point explaining that the protections of the US constitution did not apply for foreigners in the US. While it is understandable that things like voting and extended habitation rights do depend on citizenship laws concerning the rights of someone accused of a crime, or freedom of speech have to be the same for everyone - it's fundamental to justice. They are called human, not US citizen, rights for a reason.
He likely has information to negotiate help for a lot of countries, just leak something secretly and they will aid you to reach your destination. The real question is why didnt he go to such countries first.
go talk to aclu
they got the list of decades of your abuses ok i cant afford to spend my entire life listing the usa abuses.
Hanssen and Ames were handing over things like troop strength, locations of CIA operatives, etc. to the Soviets for cash. They weren't blowing the whistle to the press on an illegal internal spying program. Pretty big difference there.
So, let me ask you something....
As he pulled a small black suitcase and carried a selection of laptop bags over his shoulders, no one would have paid much attention to Ed Snowden as he arrived at Hong Kong International Airport. But Snowden was not your average tourist or businessman. In all, he was carrying four computers that enabled him to gain access to some of the US government's most highly-classified secrets. -- more
What exactly does he have on those four laptops? So far he has pretty much only released a few PowerPoint slides, a few documents. That doesn't take much space. What does he have that he hasn't released? What does he intend to do with it? A little bargaining maybe? What will his source of income be, and from whom?
You claim that the surveillance being conducted by the NSA was illegal - what is your source for that? Can you point to a court decision against it? Could you be overlooking the Article II powers that the courts have previously recognized?
Just curious.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
"one official saying Snowden was safe from the authorities as long as he remained in the transit lounge at the city's Sheremetyevo airport"
Oooh, I saw that movie. Terminals with Tom Hanks, lol.
Butbutbut...
He had a hot girlfriend! He must be some kind of superspy or something!
I wonder how much attention we'd be paying this individual if he hadn't left a hot girlfriend behind...
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
How wonderful China and Russia are aiding Snowden! Both countries are obviously homes to all forms of freedom of expression. As a citizen of China and Russia you can always voice your opinion against the government without worry of incrimination. If you see corruption in the Russian government or brutality against gays then write it about online or in a newspaper. If you think China is oppressing dissidents or sentencing citizens to the death penalty for minor offenses the just tweet about it. That is how truly free those countries are. No need to fear the FSB, Black Dolphin, or MSS. These are happy places full of smiling, jolly police and intelligence officials who welcome criticism.
"Whatever classified documents he had, they now have"
Cuba's nice, well except the Guantanamo bit. Prisoners are starving themselves in order to get a court hearing in Guantanamo. That parts not so nice.
"They'll also be tipped off about US operations which would put US operations and of course US assets / troops at risk."
Are you saying you're planning an war against Cuba? Really troops? Do you maybe wanna get Congress to approve it first? Have a chat with the American people before then?
"Snowden will be used as a weapon not just against the NSA and US government but against US troops and even civilians such as rebels fighting in civil wars funded by the US who don't even know how the Snowden case will affect their effort."
If there's any secret wars you've got going that you'd like to raise at the next Congregational hearing?
Look I see where you're coming from, you want to demonize Snowden by suggesting he'll leak something that's BAD for America, in the same way he leaked stuff that's GOOD for America, but hinting at secret wars, and planned troop invasions of countries really doesn't do it. It just makes you sound like a creepy military man.
"A hero protects lives, I fail to see how Snowden can be a hero"
He's a hero because he did something brave that benefited American and ruined his own life. Hats off to him.
" So let's hope he doesn't know half the shit he claimed to know in that interview."
Truth is scary isn't it?
I'm going to just assume you're a spin doctor, as otherwise i'd have to be rude and assume you are an idiot.
a) Snowden did not board the plane to cuba
b) anyone who considers cuba since the soviet union fell apart a threat to america is a moron.
c) nothing snowden could have known about troop positions or other such actions or involvement would have been left the same from shortly after the second he leaked his name. This is assuming he even had such knowledge, given his position his access would have been fairly general and non-specific as far as military matters are concerned.
Did you watch Snowden's interview? He said he had access to information detailing missions and the identities as well.
Then he leaked a Top Secret G8 spy operation. If he didn't have access then how did we learn about that?
What exactly does he have on those four laptops? So far he has pretty much only released a few PowerPoint slides, a few documents. That doesn't take much space. What does he have that he hasn't released? What does he intend to do with it? A little bargaining maybe? What will his source of income be, and from whom?
So your assertion is that because he COULD release this information to foreign intelligence agencies, that that makes him just as guilty as everyone who HAS?!? Well, in that case, you had better arrest everyone else who has access to classified information (all 4.9 million of them), since they could presumably become spies any day now too.
You claim that the surveillance being conducted by the NSA was illegal - what is your source for that?
The 4th amendment to the United States Constitution.
The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
Exactly what country do you expect him to go to? There are only about 5-6 countries in the world that aren't the total lapdogs of the U.S. government (or at least in bed with them). That doesn't exactly leave him a lot of options if he wants to remain free and not have all his (very important) information just buried again.
Snowden is a pure snitch. He ratted out the entire US military and an entire G8 operation which had nothing to do with spying on Americans.
Now we all know the US spied on Internet cafes at the G8. But that was completely legal and the NSA is supposed to do stuff like that so what reason was that information leaked and who did it benefit?
It definitely puts career civil servants at risk, and quite probably puts some politicians at risk. Hence the push to STFU Snowden.
If Snowden or Assange ever stumble into a situation where the USA would be able to bring them to trial, they are more likely to end up dead than in a USA courtroom. There are rogue elements within the USA government who would want that to happen, and they may well have the means to make it so.
Will
The 4th Amendment to the Constitution.
Corporate espionage is the one thing they're not allowed to do.
If that where the case, the US would have an unbelievable business and trade-negotiating advantage everywhere, and it would be obvious.
Haven't I seen this movie before? This sounds like a Russian knockoff of The Terminal.
They had pretty much hinted as much. Even the Dutch news had an segment with an interview with a Hong Kong official stating:
( Source: 8pm NOS Journaal of June 11th 2013, 19 minutes into the program. )
The 4th amendment to the United States Constitution.
He doesn't care about that. He'll just argue that the government doesn't think their actions are "unreasonable," so it's all justified.
Hey, he's a government cheerleader. What did you expect?
The whole case is an illusion.
CNN covering it non-stop was the dead givaway. CNN only does that if it somehow benefits Obama and the NWO.
Snowden talking so calmly in interviews was the next piece. He should have been extremely nervous.
All the interviews left on Youtube, is the next piece. That all would have been taken down, censored, but they were all left up, intentionally.
Next, the implementation taht the Chinese can use his knowledge.
Finally, is the fact his so called movements are tracked. It's a ll an illusion to hid the fact he is still in China.
This is a trick by Mr. Obama to get a spy to get intel or provide disinformation to the Chinese government. and Mr. Obama may also use it as an excuse to clamp down on the internet some more.
We are not fooled by you, Mr. Ogama.
Details of *domestic* spying will put no US asset at risk. Except maybe a few server farms and ISP links?
What about details of the G8 spying: http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/06/17/edward_snowden_g8_latest_nsa_leak_comes_as_world_leaders_gather_in_northern.html
This should have never have been leaked. There is nothing illegal about this operation. In fact I don't understand how anyone but foreign governments gain from this leak. The people at the G8 are all government officials being spied on and those are the people who are supposed to be spied on so why was it leaked? EXPLAIN.
They already knew what he knew.
They are only protecting him to make USA look bad, its all PR.
But hey, if USA has access to ALL communications, and all inhouse secret emails and source codes of ALL corporations to all commericial products in dev/beta/selling, then they have the upper hand.
ie. If the NSA has all the source code of a competitor to USA corp, then they give it to the CEO of a F100 corp.
Gee, why are usa corps so successful, its because they get inside info from the NSA.
Even if that info is just pricing and time to market.
ie, if helping Apple gains 50 billion in sales, and hurts Samsung, the NSA will, since it directly benefits pension funds, and the whole USA.
But the number one reason the USA is top dog, is the federal reserve and their unlimited money printing illegal rights, that every one can say, FU, we arent paying our debts back coz its funny money.
How do you know what they knew? Did they know details like from this leak http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/06/17/edward_snowden_g8_latest_nsa_leak_comes_as_world_leaders_gather_in_northern.html
I doubt they knew about that. But even if they did, the more details they are given the more they'll be able to duplicate prism.
on one hand, 'snitches get stiches'.
otoh, if an entity that keeps claiming to have the high moral ground was caught being VERY naughty and you 'tell on them', is that, in itself, wrong?
quite a lot of us believe that there should be limits as to what our spying agencies can do. many of us believe the US has crossed a line and needs to be reeled back in.
if someone had committed murder and you knew about it, would you just sit on that info?
how is this any different? he saw crimes committed and told about it. I think he's a hero!
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/06/17/edward_snowden_g8_latest_nsa_leak_comes_as_world_leaders_gather_in_northern.html
This is what Snowden gave to the media. We don't know how many other details like this he has to hand over. The fact that he's now in Russia could mean that he's handing over gigs detailed of information he had stored somewhere. WE JUST DO NOT KNOW.
So stop acting like you know.
What exactly does he have on those four laptops? So far he has pretty much only released a few PowerPoint slides, a few documents. That doesn't take much space. What does he have that he hasn't released? What does he intend to do with it? A little bargaining maybe? What will his source of income be, and from whom?
So your assertion is that because he COULD release this information to foreign intelligence agencies, that that makes him just as guilty as everyone who HAS?!? Well, in that case, you had better arrest everyone else who has access to classified information (all 4.9 million of them), since they could presumably become spies any day now too.
You claim that the surveillance being conducted by the NSA was illegal - what is your source for that?
The 4th amendment to the United States Constitution.
If he's in Russia right now and the news reports are true that he did not board the plane to Cuba then chances are he is being interrogated and everything he has is being given. He isn't in any position to be in any kind of control, they have control of him physically and can interrogate him for as long as it takes.
*That*?? wasn't an illegal operation.
Well its a start that you accept there were some illegal operations. Now as to whether *THAT* particular one was illegal, well leak us the full details of it, and we'll see.
" Tell me why Snowden leaked that."
Because he's a hero?
And not just an ordinary hot girlfriend. A hot girlfriend who will hang out around nerds!
/.
Seeing nouns as verbs wouldn't surprise me at all in things like People mag, but seeing it on Slashdot does. The sentence " It appears China gifted the issue to Russia." makes perfect sense, so why would any adult with at least a HS education use 'gifted'. Holey cow.......
i didn't know /b/ was part of the EU
It appears that the Chinese public has taken quite an interest in this matter. A million tweets / posts is quite a few, and there seems to be a lot of support for him other than concerns about the diplomatic aspects. I can see this matter would pose quite a dilemma for the Chinese government. On one hand allowing him to stay would be a great public relations coup, but on the other hand they probably don't want to give their citizens any ideas or inspiration to follow.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
i am outside your window peeking in like the nsa SEE ME YET?
Grow up big man. You sound such a cry baby.
First, do you realize that Snowden left US because he felt that would never receive fair trial. After the decision he made to reveal unjust practices to public he had no other choice than to leave.
If he had been convinced that he would have fair trial there would have been no reason to escape. He did not leave because it was fun or because he wanted to hand over secret information to foreign countries, but because it was necessary for his own safety after going public what is done by NSA/CIA.
I don't believe he carries any secret documents with him, that would be really naive. He probably has his material, if he still has more, uploaded somewhere multiple encrypted copies online somewhere and where he can get them when needed. The documents might be literally right under the noses of NSA and CIA but appear so innocent that nobody without knowing it would be able to pick up those files.
For sure Snowden will and have been interviewed already by the intelligence agencies agents at least few times, offered cooperation and he will also spied by many as they want to know where he has his stuff etc. He will not for sure reveal his all cards as that is his life insurance least so long that trust level what is needed for him to settle down somewhere will develop. He will hardly be asked taking part of their intelligence operations, but if he can provide useful information sure he will be listened and possibly given some more financial support for living if he does. But I don't believe he will be left starving under the sky if he refuses to give any detailed information. He may just also be helped by some NGO:s and like. He may possibly write book or couple of his experiences to earn his living too, which is quite reasonable if he has no other means to make living. I'll be one to buy those books as will be CIA, FBI, NSA and many other interested individuals no doubt about that.
I don't believe he thinks about possibility of returning US in foreseeable future and as long as US hasn't changed its policies of whistle blowers. Knowing this he might change nationality and then he of course needs to be loyal to his new country. This is how it usually goes also with US immigrants, right.
About hero protecting lives ... do saving foreign civilians and troops lives count also? I think they should. How about if this leak prevented some offensive of US which will actually save lives either one side or other now or later? Would that be fair outcome of this? I think it is.
But if you are really considered about your troops safety you should get them out of foreign fighting. That is clearly safest way of achieving the goal.
I think there is quite a lot of things US can and should to learn from this case and not just blindly blame others of everything you cooked up there all by yourselves.
ps. No hard feelings for US or it's citizens from my side, bet you get over this at the time even though it hurts now.
All this shows is that the freedom to murder is not as evolved as in the US.
I was just sitting this. The U.S, is kind of like an overbearing dean at a school looking for the one kid with the laser pointer (Snowden), and all the students (countries) are sitting on their hands with giant grins laughing as they shrug their shoulders.
Hey, look at me! My opinion is valid because I found a website that says the same thing.
And this means any secrets he may know about anything will be handed over to them. At this point he is headed to Cuba where he can give whatever Top Secret information he can to the Cubans. How can anyone see him as a hero if he's helping a government recognized as a dictatorship to build up it's spy machine capabilities, to defeat US spy machine capabilities, or both?
What impact will his knowledge have on Syrian rebel forces? What impact will his knowledge have on troops? Does he know troop positions? Whatever he knows the US government must now assume they know. I just hope not too many innocent civilians get hurt from Snowdens decisions.
If his knowledge of the US intelligence apparatus is really so extensive, the US brought this on themselves. Something about eggs and baskets.
non sequitur doesn't mean what you think it means.
Well, one thing we do know is that he didn't just hand it over indiscriminately to anyone in the past. That strongly suggests that he's not out to just hurt the U.S.
Now you can cook up any number of paranoid scenarios if you like (as you could with anyone who has access to this data). But it presumes a change of attitude on his part that he has heretofore not shown.
The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
Yeah, like all of those American citizens who bought the government line that they didn't need privacy laws because the government wasn't interested in spying on them. I hope not too many innocient citizens have their feelings hurt as they discover their government has been lying for decades about increasing domestic surveillance that was supposed to protect them. From something. Like the removal of their civil liberties.
Yes, I just hope not too many innocent civilians gets hurt from Snowdens decisions.
Only individuals acting on their own moral code can help
I agree comrade! So when are YOU going to put down your own money and/or life on the line to help your fellow individuals around the world?
How do you know he isn't already?
Part of what made the underground railroad so successful was the fact that asshats like you didn't know it existed until after the fact.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
It may have been legal in the USA for the NSA to spy on others. But it may not be legal in other countries. Moreover, talking about benefits, it benefits all of humanity to know more details of how governments spy on us and each other.
Fuck you.
HELP MY ACCOUNT HAS BEEN HACKED BY AN ILLIBERAL ART STUDENT SET TO DESTROY THE INTERWEBZ!
...is a logical fallacy, and named as such.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope ...among others.
Please help metamoderate.
Well, one thing we do know is that he didn't just hand it over indiscriminately to anyone in the past. That strongly suggests that he's not out to just hurt the U.S.
Now you can cook up any number of paranoid scenarios if you like (as you could with anyone who has access to this data). But it presumes a change of attitude on his part that he has heretofore not shown.
He doesn't have a choice anymore. And no it's not paranoid at all to think all the spy agencies in the world would like to talk to him.
Just like it's not paranoid to think the CIA wanted to talk to Assange in Sweden. It's what they do. But the point here is Snowden already is talking to them, he's already in Moscow. He's no longer in a position not to negotiate with them. He no longer has the option not to give them whatever they want. We don't even know where he is, he could be getting interrogated right now and we can't know.
A change in attitude should be expected when you're a prisoner of an intelligence agency is all I'm saying.
Just giving those countries and everyone else the chances to protect themselves do a big service for mankind, not just US citizens.
And a little hint: if Snowden, a worker from a private company, with that access to information, as you said "did wrong" and went public, what about the rest that didn't went public? As far i could say, there is no meaning in international intellectual property by now, anything discussed by foreigners thru internet that could had some value is already traded, patented, and being used to sue the original creators of the idea when comes the chance, to put a just a sample of potential abuse.
The Bradley Manning case has demonstrated that Snowden can expect the most extreme prosecution and punishment possible.
Is such extreme punishment warranted?
You claim that the surveillance being conducted by the NSA was illegal - what is your source for that? Can you point to a court decision against it? Could you be overlooking the Article II powers that the courts have previously recognized?
Just curious.
I heard Apartheid was perfectly "legal" in your world too.
Do you possess any active brain cells?
Just curious.
If its not illegal, then the laws are rigged. Im ok that a country that elected their government (US don't qualify on that, but less suppose) could suffer whatever abuse against their rights their government does. But what about the people from rest of the world? The communication don't even need to pass thru US to get intercepted.
The biggest damage is not against people. Is against internet, if you don't trust it or the government behind it, it will damage its adoption, or create not so open alternatives.
Making this public is the one thing they are not allowed to do. They did, and you only realized it because, well, the going public part. What makes you think that corporate espionate wasn't ever done, or keeps being done, specially giving this information to patent trolls, without going public about it? The main thing is, you don't know, you can't prove, and knowing how broken is US patent system, and how aggresively is being pushed to other parts of the world, it IS having an advantage everywhere.
A more difficult version of the "Where's Wally" game....because he isn't wearing a read and white striped jumper and cyan trousers/pants.
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
on one hand, 'snitches get stiches'.
otoh, if an entity that keeps claiming to have the high moral ground was caught being VERY naughty and you 'tell on them', is that, in itself, wrong?
quite a lot of us believe that there should be limits as to what our spying agencies can do. many of us believe the US has crossed a line and needs to be reeled back in.
if someone had committed murder and you knew about it, would you just sit on that info?
how is this any different? he saw crimes committed and told about it. I think he's a hero!
But that is not all he could end up doing. If the story ended there then you could debate with me whether or not he is a hero. The story did not end there. He still has information either in his brain or on him which could help the Russians, Cubans and whomever else. He did release a leak about the G8 which in no way was directed at civilians and so why did it get released at all? On top of that it wasn't even illegal what the NSA did in that instance so it should never have been leaked.
To me that shows he's not doing this to benefit the people of the world but he's trying to protect himself at this point from going to jail and will do anything in his power to avoid that. He will leak anything to avoid going to a US prison, but the problem is he's in Russia now and they can tell him anything they have to in order to secure his cooperation. At this point I don't think he even knows right from wrong, he's in a position to be completely brainwashed by Russian agents.
At this point Snowden is a victim of governments, but he's not a hero. He isn't a hero because I don't believe his actions will result in anything which benefits Internet activists, free speech, democracy. If he ends up in Cuba do you really think his knowledge if they get it will be used to promote Democracy?
Could be working for a reputation management company. As Snowden was working for a private company when got that information.
Don't look at the top of the iceberg. He wasn't so special in his organization, and his organization wasn't so special neither. That he knew/had access means that a lot of people had (and keep having) the same access. Before worrying about what he did, think what the others could be doing right now.
How do you know he isn't already?
The fact udachny is the puppet account of roman_mir, who on both accounts spend much time posting here (where he gets down modded to oblivion, and easily tracked by the NSA) instead of keeping his mouth shut. He has a track record of all talk, no walk.
Of course, there's the possibility that he's faking incompetence to obfuscate his real actions and intentions, but if we are to start second guessing, why not assume the worse that he's actually a double agent for the government? And maybe I'm a government agent, and you are too (there's a novel about that, I forgot the name). Paranoia? Maybe, but just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you (if Snowden's leaks are to be believed)
Part of what made the underground railroad so successful was the fact that asshats like you didn't know it existed until after the fact.
No, asshats like me are who made underground railroad successful. We're the ones who used it. We're the ones who were crying out and great people answered by putting their life/money on the line to setup those channels.
It may have been legal in the USA for the NSA to spy on others. But it may not be legal in other countries. Moreover, talking about benefits, it benefits all of humanity to know more details of how governments spy on us and each other.
Fuck you.
There is more to it than that. People will die if certain operations are compromised. So it's not as simple as saying you want people around the world to know what every government is doing. It would be nice in some utopia but all these governments are at war and people are dying in these conflicts. When it's a state of war then secrecy is part of the element of surprise and it's considered a necessary tactic, just like camouflage. Troop locations and mission objectives must be kept secret or they could be captured and killed.
Is it okay if millions of people get killed in civil wars in exchange for releasing all government secrets? And if you do support releasing all government secrets then you have to release them all at once so that no other government can capitalize on it.
All these governments assist each other and share secrets to spy on us more efficiently. But at the same time if the secrets are leaked then innocent people like us are always the ones to lose their lives over it. If operations going on in Iraq were leaked while Saddam was still alive then Saddam would have cracked down, tortured and killed them. The same would happen under any similar regime. So how can we liberate people if we have people who snitch or to put it in order words, reveal the plan and mission to the opposition forces?
The people you're liberating get to die when leaks take place. If you're a soldier, now the enemy knows where your troops are and can launch their terrorist attacks. If you're a civilian fighting a civil war, now they know how to fight you because details were leaked about what you plan to do. Governments use civilians to fight their civil wars and supply weapons and technology to both sides. Prism is an example of a technology developed by the NSA to prevent civil war on US soil, it is designed to suppress revolution, not merely to stop terrorism.
Every country wants to have the same ability to prevent civil war and suppress revolution. Cuba would love to know how Prism works so they can use it to crush whatever resistance they have which communicates on the Internet. So basically it would make it harder for civilians in Cuba who don't agree with their government. That is the reason why sources and methods should not be revealed.
In the G8 leak it was revealed that the NSA tapped Internet cafes. That is a specific source and method which can now be duplicated anywhere in the world by any regime. So now instead of just the NSA monitoring Internet cafes now we have to expect every nation in the world to do that now because it's a proven effective method. So how will Internet activists in some other country like Iran for instance deal with their country monitoring their Internet cafes? What about if it's Israel? China?
That is why sources and methods should not be leaked. The other reason is that anyone who worked for the cafe at that time now has to look over their shoulder for life just like how Snowden has to do because foreign intelligence might be looking to speak with them.
the nsa surveillance is illegal, suspicious and can't stand the light of day. why do you think it was secret?
it's only legal in the sense that the courts and president decided that there wouldn't be any repercussions from it... which again is exactly what he was blowing the whistle on.
And you're acting like america has any real secrets to spill to Russians - they know all about spying their own citizens already, they know nsa does "cyber"crimes abroad. They also know how many tanks you have, how many nukes you have and where they are(apart from the subs which is the reason the matter tactically a great deal). And I don't think Snowden had access to information about where the subs exactly are unless there's some big secret and all the subs are actually scrapped already in which case the soviets would know that too.
of course Snowden might in theory if he abused his access have a great deal of emberrassing information on high ranking officials, CEO's etc, information on business dealings etc... which gets us to the point why building such surveillance network is a bad idea - the government can't really be trusted with that information because they're such fucks that they'll contract the work out.
if PRISM is alive then it's unbelievable that USA would run the operation with anything but military personnel since supposedly military use is all it should be for.. but then again those people have all kinds of pesky oaths and low pay so they might not shut up.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Part of what made the underground railroad so successful was the fact that asshats like you didn't know it existed until after the fact.
Oh, and to add: I guess you're calling Snowden a failure, what with him exposing himself instead of keeping asshats like me in the dark (something the government likes to do... funny how secrecy is only bad when other people do it)
He had a pizza away from family/friends under virtual house arrest (confined to hotel) according Washington Post. He could take pride in having accomplished possibility the most important thing in his life. Yet lives under the fear of arrest or assassination.
I would happily see all governments fall, and all presidents, prime ministers, kings and queens dead, hung by the guts of the priesthood (however they might call themselves, imans, rabbis and gurus included). The war will not be civil, but will be a vast uprising of the masses against the oppressors. Capitalists shall be drawn and quartered in an orgy of revenge that shall make the French and Russian Revolutions look like picnics.
It won't be pretty. And I certainly don't desire it. But I can't see a good way out of it, other than the fanciful. Perhaps the powerful might be convinced to give up their wealth and powerful, and sit with the rest of us and eat common food. I doubt it.
You talk as if some governments are better than others, or even that some are good. I see the reality, that they are all bad. Saddam Hussein was an awful man, no doubt. But the "liberation" of Iraq did not lead to fewer deaths or a more free country.
it's better for all humanity to know how we are spied upon. And if I could, I would release all government secrets at once (and fuck the soldiers and special ops and spies, who all knew what they were getting into signing up to fight for their country). And if I couldn't, but if I could instead just release the secrets of one government, I would do that.
I go further than Thoreau, who suggested that the government that governs least governs best. I say that no government governs well at all, and all should be abolished.
HELP MY ACCOUNT HAS BEEN HACKED BY AN ILLIBERAL ART STUDENT SET TO DESTROY THE INTERWEBZ!
If its not illegal, then the laws are rigged. Im ok that a country that elected their government (US don't qualify on that, but less suppose) could suffer whatever abuse against their rights their government does. But what about the people from rest of the world? The communication don't even need to pass thru US to get intercepted.
The biggest damage is not against people. Is against internet, if you don't trust it or the government behind it, it will damage its adoption, or create not so open alternatives.
Governments are at war and people suffer. The G8 leak was for politics and not to help people. The US does need to fix a lot of it's laws and so do many other nations, but I don't want terrorists corrupting the process and preventing the people who love their countries from fixing the problems. Meaning you can be against illegal spying but also against terrorism and the balance for that position is you have to find a way to keep people physically safe while not infringing on their liberties.
The problem with certain kinds of leaks is that they put peoples lives in danger. To me that is a line which shouldn't be crossed. Snowden made that claim in his interview that he understands that but is saying it from China and also saying how Hong Kong has a free Internet (which might be true but no more free than the US) then goes on to say what he could have done but didn't do, how he has every identity and all sorts of knowledge of all sorts of operations, but even if he does not have those documents on him (we really don't know), the fact that he could remember some stuff could cause problems too.
So the question is how do you protect civil liberties and the Internet without putting innocent peoples lives at risk to do it? Every leak has to be judged on it's own merit, they aren't all equal. In his leak there was no detail about NSA abuses but it may have leaked something which was breaking the law and in that case it should be addressed. At the same time the G8 leak was not breaking the law and he leaked it anyway for unknown reasons.
He did show that the NSA lies to the American people about not spying on Americans and that the NSA may have broken the law. He also revealed sources and methods about how the US spies on the G8 which didn't help anything.
Don't look at the top of the iceberg. He wasn't so special in his organization, and his organization wasn't so special neither. That he knew/had access means that a lot of people had (and keep having) the same access. Before worrying about what he did, think what the others could be doing right now.
Those others aren't in Russian custody right now. Also it's not my job to worry about what every contractor is doing. Snowden is the one who went on the media and put himself in the public consciousness.
yadyadayada, Chinese mobile-phone hacking scandal, yadayadayada, AMDOCS, FOXCOMM (Capitol Building wifi), WAZE for 1.2 Billions, going,going, the dogs have, GONE!
I know, your job is improve the reputation of the NSA and alikes, even with this kind of spills. But what you don't know can hurt you, or the ones you care about, and that they have in a silver platter anything that can be used against you (even by misinterpretation) don't improve your chances. Speaking of misuses, how will affect you personally what russia or cuba or whatever enemy in your mind nation do with this information? And how is that compared with that NSA/CIA/(dis)intelligence agencies can do to you with what they are gathering? And what about the average citizen of US, or the world? Focus in the biggest foe.
Grow up big man. You sound such a cry baby.
First, do you realize that Snowden left US because he felt that would never receive fair trial.
He chose to go to Hong Kong which is in China. That is no accident. Yes there is fear of US allies extraditing him but why did he choose Hong Kong and then Russia? He had other options but chose these countries which would cause the greatest amount of political fallout possible. It's not the Cold War anymore but China? Russia? Cuba?!
After the decision he made to reveal unjust practices to public he had no other choice than to leave.
If he had been convinced that he would have fair trial there would have been no reason to escape. He did not leave because it was fun or because he wanted to hand over secret information to foreign countries, but because it was necessary for his own safety after going public what is done by NSA/CIA.
The difference between you and me is that I question his motives. I don't pretend to know what he was thinking or know why he made his decisions. But if you want to know my position on what I think he was thinking and doing, I believe he was acting based on his moral compass and his conscience. I think the problem he had was a lack of information, and this led to him making terrible decisions. The thing about the government is information is so ridiculously compartmentalized that he might have known everything there is to know about Prism and certain programs being a Sys Admin or whatever he was but then because he couldn't see from another angle he might not have known enough to have made a better decision. Also I really do believe abuses are going on and he probably did stumble upon some legit abuses of the information being collected, or blackmail, such as the story he tells about how the CIA got some guy drunk, These things really do happen so it's perfectly understandable that he could have had a guilty conscience but I also don't think he fully thought through his actions and acted impulsively in a way which is self defeating.
He did achieve something and that is bringing attention to the potential for abuse by the NSA and I give him credit for bringing attention to a legit problem with lack of oversight. That part of his leak is the part most people pass over but he said an analyst could basically look into anyones online activity for any reason. As far as I know he made it out like there is no oversight. What is to stop the NSA from abusing the information after collecting it? So don't get the impression that I like Prism, it definitely needs more oversight. The (NSA doesn't spy on Americans) was also proven not to be true.
I don't believe he carries any secret documents with him, that would be really naive. He probably has his material, if he still has more, uploaded somewhere multiple encrypted copies online somewhere and where he can get them when needed.
There is no way he can get them without Russia getting them when he's physically in Russia. So whatever method he uses to access them can and will be intercepted.
The documents might be literally right under the noses of NSA and CIA but appear so innocent that nobody without knowing it would be able to pick up those files.
He may be skilled but he's still in Russia. The NSA and CIA isn't in control of him anymore. He cannot access anything without it being intercepted by Russian intelligence because he;s in their country. The same goes for China or anywhere else he is. He wont be able to access a damn thing because he wont have any privacy to access anything without sharing it with them.
For sure Snowden will and have been interviewed already by the intelligence agencies agents at least few times, offered cooperation and he will also spied by many as they want to know where he has his stuff etc. He will not for sure reveal his all cards as that is his life insurance least so long that trust leve
So, our government just hands out Top Secret clearance to ANYBODY???
(and how can I get in on this racket?)
Antartica. A little birdy told me. Tweet! Tweet! Oh wait, maybe it was Viet Nam.
You are being MICROattacked, from various angles, in a SOFT manner.
Hanssen and Ames were handing over things like troop strength, locations of CIA operatives, etc. to the Soviets for cash. They weren't blowing the whistle to the press on an illegal internal spying program. Pretty big difference there.
Check again with the term "illegal". AFAIK, nothing the NSA is doing is against the law, particularly in view of FISA and the Patriot Act, which were passed by act of Congress, signed by the President, and reauthorized multiple times since.
At best, the internal spying program is "unpopular", not "illegal". One act of Congress (two, if the President doesn't agree) and these spy powers are gone. However, Americans keep re-electing the same Congressmen that keep these "unpopular" Acts in place.
Go figure.
Snowden is a PowerPoint spy for China/military industrial complex...though a lawbreaker, he **did not** reveal any substantially new information about the NSA and US surveillance programs...just the 'PRISM' name from a .ppt and details of existing operations...still espionage, especially out counter-intel efforts in China, this guy is no Brad Lee Manning...he broke the law to reveal operational details of things people knew existed in abstract
we all know the government can access our digital communications under certain circumstances...it's part of living in a free society...
any IT professional knows any signal transmitted can be intercepted...just because ambulance-chasing yellow journalists morons are all in a flap doesn't mean a 'meaningful conversation' has started at all...the NSA and Patriot Act will only change through **Congress**
to the point: ALL OF THIS WAS REPORTED IN 2006: yahoo.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-05-10-nsa_x.htm
Read it and weep snowdentrolls....he broke the law on a foolish nerd/troll errand so he could get a book deal/documentary and see himself on CNN
The only productive conversation that should result is about *oversight* and *accountability of contractors* and *due process*...
Snowden is a malignant narcissist or maybe being blackmailed
Thank you Dave Raggett
If he was so pro privacy he certainly wouldn't be looking to China, Russia or Cuba for refuge and sympathy, these are the least sympathetic countries for civil liberties and privacy, they are however very sympathetic for anti-Americanism.
(If at first you don't succeed, do it different next time!)
...was one where the author noted that the US was perplexed at the delay in response to an extradition request from Chinese officials.
I emailed the author, to suggest that might have been because they hadn't picked themselves up off the floor, where they'd fallen from laughing so hard at the incontrovertable proof that the US and China spied on their own people the same way... just that the US does it a bit more covertly.
mark "where's that sigfile some folks used to use on usenet, that was intended to overload Carnivore?"
I love this BS arguing.
The government is almost always trying to make people snitch on other people.
It's how the war on drugs works.
But when someone starts snitching on them they are in an uproar.
Personally I think snitches should always get stitches.
Fuck snitches.
If you can't handle a couple of years in prison to protect your friends, you shouldn't have gotten involved in the first place.
Snitching should carry an automatic life sentence.
I'm using a website to track the Moscow-Havana flight right now, and it clearly overflies the US; look for yourself - http://flightaware.com/live/flight/AFL150/history/20130624/1005Z/UUEE/MUHA
Will the US force the plane to land? Will the plane experience "technical difficulties" forcing it to make an emergency landing on US soil? The current plane is an Airbus so the US knows everything about its avionics... click, click, click and a warning light comes on.
Who knows, but if I were Snowden, I'd make sure I steered well clear of the US and remained over International waters. Maybe Kim Dotcom can charter a plane for him, he still has a few scores to settle with the US government.
When the copyright term is "forever minus a day", live every day like it's the last.
“He’s a kid, I really think he’s a kid, I think he never anticipated this would be such a big matter in Hong Kong,” Mr. Ho said, adding that, “He enjoys Pepsi, he prefers Pepsi to wine, that’s why I say he’s a kid.” "Mr. Ho presented an image of Mr. Snowden that differed in some respects from the public image that he presented in a video released by The Guardian, a British newspaper, when Mr. Snowden first stepped forward to take responsibility for leaks of classified information about American surveillance programs. In the video, assembled over a period of days from various remarks made by Mr. Snowden, he appeared to have devised a clear plan of action together with a willingness to defy the United States. But Mr. Ho described his client as someone with a vague sense of his legal options and a limited understanding, at least until the dinner over pizza last Tuesday, of his legal rights in Hong Kong. During the dinner, Mr. Ho said, “he came to a full grasp of the situation and better understanding of the reality.”
I know, your job is improve the reputation of the NSA and alikes, even with this kind of spills. But what you don't know can hurt you, or the ones you care about, and that they have in a silver platter anything that can be used against you (even by misinterpretation) don't improve your chances. Speaking of misuses, how will affect you personally what russia or cuba or whatever enemy in your mind nation do with this information? And how is that compared with that NSA/CIA/(dis)intelligence agencies can do to you with what they are gathering? And what about the average citizen of US, or the world? Focus in the biggest foe.
This isn't about a reputation, it's about people staying alive.
I don't think everything the NSA does is bad. I think it needs more oversight and I think there may be abuses but I don't think we should completely sacrifice all national security like you do. Don't you have friends and family in the USA? What about in the military? Do you want to hurt the NSA so bad that you don't care about the security of thousands or perhaps millions of people?
There is a difference between not liking a program or policy of the US government or NSA and completely hating the organization and country.
I would happily see all governments fall, and all presidents, prime ministers, kings and queens dead, hung by the guts of the priesthood (however they might call themselves, imans, rabbis and gurus included). The war will not be civil, but will be a vast uprising of the masses against the oppressors. Capitalists shall be drawn and quartered in an orgy of revenge that shall make the French and Russian Revolutions look like picnics.
It won't be pretty. And I certainly don't desire it. But I can't see a good way out of it, other than the fanciful. Perhaps the powerful might be convinced to give up their wealth and powerful, and sit with the rest of us and eat common food. I doubt it.
You talk as if some governments are better than others, or even that some are good. I see the reality, that they are all bad. Saddam Hussein was an awful man, no doubt. But the "liberation" of Iraq did not lead to fewer deaths or a more free country.
it's better for all humanity to know how we are spied upon. And if I could, I would release all government secrets at once (and fuck the soldiers and special ops and spies, who all knew what they were getting into signing up to fight for their country). And if I couldn't, but if I could instead just release the secrets of one government, I would do that.
I go further than Thoreau, who suggested that the government that governs least governs best. I say that no government governs well at all, and all should be abolished.
No I talk as if some people are better than others. That is because to me it's subjective. There are people I happen to like who happen to be in the USA or US allied nations. To hurt national security for the US would put their lives at risk and I don't support that.
I agree that governments are too authoritarian, but I disagree with the tactic of leaking as a solution. Leaking creates arms races as governments discover what other governments have been working on in Top Secret. Leaking also makes each government a bit more paranoid which usually means they spy on us even harder because they are worried about the next Bradley fucking Manning or Edward Snowden. If anything the leaks could be used to justify an increase in the spy budget of the NSA. People will say if we just looked at Snowden a bit more carefully and vetted him a bit more thoroughly that maybe this couldn't have happened.
The truth is no amount of vetting would have changed this and the problem isn't that the NSA spies, but whether or not the mechanisms they are using is causing abuse. I think spying on peoples Internet habits over years is ripe for abuse so there has to be a lot more oversight of these sorts of programs but I also believe if the NSA isn't doing it foreign intelligence will so I don't believe attacking the NSA program is how you change things, you change things by getting laws passed to restrict, regulate, and provide accountability for all who abuse their power.
Snowden is a no body. Thats why he's getting out of Russia. If he had anything that mattered, he would have 'never landed in Russia' and disappeared.
What he has 'leaked', the rest of the world sat back and said 'uhm, yea? You didn't figure that out 30 years ago?'
Snowden's leaks just show he's a traitor, they bring no actual value to the table, no new information, just a basic confirmation of what we already knew.
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
He's intelligent, has an average to low body fat percentage, cares about others, and oh yeah has gigantic brass balls to take on the NSA. So yeah, unless you're a rock star who's gone platinum, Snowden is going to be far more desired than you will ever be.
Although Snowden himself has vanished without a trace, it was noted by some passengers that a large werewolf resembling one of the creatures from Dog Soldiers , traveling without documents, boarded just before the flight departed.
Dmitry Peskov, spokesman for the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, said: "I know nothing."'
Who wrote this, summary William, Shatner?
No, Sgt Shultz wrote it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgcxGFmYyPs
As is most of South America, where the USA happily sells guns. China and several monarchies are a half-step above a dictatorship and the USA doesn't care. We all know the USA only pretends to be righteous.
Cuba has a spy base? The USA is scared of Cuba? HaHaHaHaHa. Once again Americans are pissed-off that their closest neighbour stopped worshiping the almighty greenback.
Why is the USA spying on Syrian rebels? How does this affect American sovereignty? Say "strawman".
Um yeah, because the location of US battalions are so secret! Why is the CIA watching American soldiers?
No, China, there is still a huge difference between actively trying to break computer/network security and steal information, and widespread surveillance of one's own citizens (the latter ostensibly legal in China, dubiously so in the US). They're both bad, but it's definitely worse when (for example) China and the US are trying to break into the other's stuff, because that could be regarded as an offensive action deserving of retaliation.
The United States runs two major (and who knows how many minor) gulags: Gitmo and Bagram Prison. How many does Spain have?
The United States has tortured at least 100 people to death in it's War Of Terror. How does that compare to say, Italy?
Then there's the trifling matter that the United States has the largest prison population in the world, both in raw numbers and as a percentage of it's population. More than China, more than Russia, more than Turkey, and most are locked up for victimless drug offenses.
Did you all play "Keepings off" as a kid, possibly call it something else? You mess with someone by throwing something they want from person to person (e.g. a ball, or if you're being cruel and they dropped their pencil case..,), passing it to the next person just as the victim gets close enough to grab it from you.
It's amusing to think of the American government as running up to Hong Kong, arms outstretched, grabbing for Snowden saying "Give it back", as Hong Kong throws him to Russia a the last second, who then hides him behind its back, so you don't know if Russia is going to use its left hand to throw Snowden to Cuba, or its right hand to throw him to Ecuador.
Few things more amusing than seeing the bully looking helpless and embarassed, even if only for a minute.
How telling others (specially, US citizens) that they are being spied put your own people in danger? Who is behaving wrong there? Or spying all the world is a god given priviledge? Is not that they won't abuse that privilege,
I don't want anybody hurt, but give government free card to do anything and they will be the terrorists. If you think that that terror campaign only goes to a few countries, think again, they want to go against hackers too (so better you don't live in the same area that someone downloading an mp3). And if that don't worry you because you, after all, live in US, you probably will be next.
This is about awareness, the rest of the world so they can protect themselves, and you, that should be the one that can do anything about it. But you can keep giving them free pass, in the end, if/when something happens to you or to someone you cares about in the hand of that government you are defending, you will know that was your fault.
then you have nothing to fear from whistleblowers
Spying on diplomats is a no-no.
This is what Snowden gave to the media. We don't know how many other details like this he has to hand over. The fact that he's now in Russia could mean that he's handing over gigs detailed of information he had stored somewhere.
WE JUST DO NOT KNOW.
So stop acting like you know.
How telling others (specially, US citizens) that they are being spied put your own people in danger? Who is behaving wrong there? Or spying all the world is a god given priviledge? Is not that they won't abuse that privilege,
I don't want anybody hurt, but give government free card to do anything and they will be the terrorists. If you think that that terror campaign only goes to a few countries, think again, they want to go against hackers too (so better you don't live in the same area that someone downloading an mp3). And if that don't worry you because you, after all, live in US, you probably will be next.
This is about awareness, the rest of the world so they can protect themselves, and you, that should be the one that can do anything about it. But you can keep giving them free pass, in the end, if/when something happens to you or to someone you cares about in the hand of that government you are defending, you will know that was your fault.
He's way of getting awareness is now starting to cause damage. I understand he wants to shut the program down but he's going about it the wrong way. Also it might not be an option to shut it down anyway.
So I agree with you if it's about abuse we have to prevent that but I don't see how him fleeing to Cuba or threatening to release damaging files will prevent abuse. Has the NSA stopped spying on us? No.
What was the alternative? Not even knowing that the NSA is spying us? Not even knowing that the NSA is spying in fact everyone? Knowing gives you a chance to do something, at the very least not trust the US network for storing critical information, but for US citizens should give the chance to elect something not tied in this game, or expressely manifest that they don't want anyone tied in this game (even if it means voting "none of the above"), in big numbers could send a message.
A bit more over that. The government is criminalizing whisteblowers big time, so what Snowden released is not all that must be hidden at all cost, either he have more, or he didnt access to it. And again, the rest of the world can't do nothing about it (if threatened "consequences" to China for letting Snowden escape, even with the evidence of massive spying they are doing on them, means that there are no sanctions back yet, not from europe, russia or china, the biggest sanction so far is letting Snowden out of their hands), what the government keeps being mortally afraid is what US population would do knowing about it. We still are seeing the tip of the iceberg, even after Snowden and Wikileaks, and the main affected people are the citizens of the US.
If Snowden went to Cuba he just made it cheaper for the US to lock him up in Guantanamo.
Hopefully he is on hist way to Iceland.
What was the alternative? Not even knowing that the NSA is spying us? Not even knowing that the NSA is spying in fact everyone?
False dichotomy.
One alternative is to release generic information that spying is happening, but not specifics or singling out people/operations/etc.
Another alternative was to release information without leaving the US, so it's harder for foreign interests to grab him and coerce information out of him.
Oh of course staying in the US would mean the US government has an easier time to catch him, but then you're the one who says...
Knowing gives you a chance to do something
Can't Snowden rely on these same bunch of patriotic freedom loving Americans to help him? Can he not rely on Americans to do the right thing, and stand up to their government, to "do something"?
If Snowden's leaks are just the tip of the iceberg, wouldn't it be in the American people's own best interest to secure Snowden - and thus the information - to themselves? If it's about making information accessible to the American people, wouldn't having Snowden physically in the US make him and his info more accessible to the American people?
Why are you trusting foreign people (who may not have the right to bear arms, or much other rights) and foreign governments to protect Snowden. Are you the American people not sufficient? What happened to Land of the Free, Home the Brave?
should start making friends before needing them.
have the balls to give him not only asylum but a diplomatic passport? Then he could travel back to the USA to face the congress scum who are calling for him to be tried for treason. Some people should be tried but is isn't Snowden!
Please add Ed Snowden to http://www.nagaiah.com/
This is largely off-topic, but I found the Guardian article you linked to to be surprisingly interesting, especially this paragraph:
The Mail holds aloft the banner of press freedom when citing the public's right to know about Hugh Grant's private life, but it appears to find it unacceptable for a paper to inform the people that their privacy has been compromised by their own government.
That is unexpectedly outspoken and clear-sighted for a mainstream newspaper that should basically have been standing in the same line-up that The Mail, etc. are forming.
From where I am right now in Europe, I am seeing a disturbing trend of media outlets being secretly herded together, formerly independent newspapers and radio & TV channels being bought out and control over them centralized. I'm afraid this is not coincidental, seeing how crucial the controlled news media in the US is to manipulating public perception of national issues.
[SHOW SOME LENIENCY TOWARDS