Let me see. Oh yeah, right here:
I do not complain about the strong accents of Mexicans here in Southern California where I now live
The previous person was not speaking about hispanic people in general. He was speaking about Mexicans- as in people who are citizens of Mexico. Specifically, citizens of Mexico who are living in the US.
Now, the last time I checked, the US does not grant a lot of Mexican citizens entry to LIVE in the US. The US certainly did NOT grant entry to even a small portion of the 10+ million Mexican citizens currently LIVING in the US.
THAT is why I said illegal immigrants.
It may be logical to assume immigration to the US, but it is not logical to assume that it is legal.
I structured that sentence very carefully. Read it again. The key words there are "speak" and "fluently".
Learning the basics of a foreign language are one thing that I would say is valuable. But, this thread is focused on conversational language. A foreigner may be 100% grammatically correct in their English, yet still mangle the language.
If you're going to work for or live in the US, then you should speak the language so that it can be understood by the average American.
Interesting that you equate your temporary and probably legal stay in Germany to the illegal and permanent migration of Mexican citizens to the US. It seems to me that these two situations are not the same. Americans have every right to gripe about being forced to deal with foreigners who enter their country illegally.
I have been a foreigner who also lived in Germany, but only for a year. While I generally do not make fun of foreign accents, I have to admit that I have in the past. If anything, poor or unintelligible English now annoys me. But that's probably because my employer and other businesses that I deal with force me to speak with these people. It has come to the point that if I hear the unintelligible up-and-down speech pattern of an Indian on the phone, I will hang up on whatever call I was trying to get help on.
Indians are claiming to be "native" English speakers, when they are not. And it is very easy to manipulate the sales process that corporate executives go through. The best English speakers for these companies are not on the phones, they're in sales and talking to those executives.
The "rational" choice to learn Spanish because of the 10+ million illegal immigrants concentrated in the southwest states is still nonsense. I lived in California, New Mexico, and Texas and got along just fine without knowing any Spanish.
Because these workers are generally illegal, employers tend to hide them. So, the people serving customers in businesses speak English. The times you'd run into Spanish speakers are in your social life, ie not often. The illegal immigrants tend to stay within their own social circles.
This quid-pro-quo nonsense regarding language skills is pure bullshit. Americans are not moving overseas in droves, so they don't need to learn other languages. Americans are not stealing jobs through offshoring companies, so they don't need to learn other languages. Americans are mostly staying right there in America.
There is no point in learning to speak a second language fluently if you're never going to use it. Most Americans aren't going to move out of country. And a good majority of Americans will never leave the country. America's so damn big, that few Americans will run into someone that they have to speak German or French.
However, if you actually do move to another country, then you should be able to speak the language fluently. If you do phone support for another country, then you should be able to speak their language fluently. You can not expect a society to make up for YOUR lack of communication skills.
English is the official language for all intents and purposes in America. If you can't speak English well and you want to live in or work for Americans, then you should learn how.
That is exactly what I was going to say regarding the Civ series. Civ 3 was basically just a graphics upgrade of Civ 2. Hopefully, Civ 4 offers more to enhance the gameplay. But, I doubt they'll make it materially different.
This also reminds me of the SimCity series. SimCity 4 is basically the same as all the other SimCities. If you've played SimCity 1, then you're not going to get much more out of SimCity 4.
Given that I've played all the Civs and SimCities, I know exactly how each game will progress. But occasionally, my memory will fade. Then I'll start a new game. The game will go on for a while and be fairly interesting at first. Then it'll hit me: I know what the end will be. I know because that's the way the end always is. The fun of the game fades away and I shut it off.
... And you don't think American companies are moving to lower cost locations as well? It was big news up here in Seattle this week when the head of Vietnam made a visit to Bill Gates. Seems that Vietnamese programmers make half the salary of Indians. Don't think Microsoft will stay in high-priced India when they can get the same service from low-priced Vietnam.
US companies have been playing this outsourcing game for the last 30 years. Indian companies don't have the experience as US companies. Indian companies only have experience insourcing.
Have you looked at prices of American furniture lately? We're shipping furniture from China, so it has to be cost-competitive, even with furniture's 200-300% markup.
Your point is relevant now, but incorrect. The purchasing power of the American still outweighs the Indian in this case, because the American can buy his furniture from India.
One of the bigwigs in the Windows org once made a mistake in a speach. He told the workers that each one of them had generated millions for the company... The employees then looked at each other and wondered why they weren't millionaires.
The fact is that IT companies have made millions and billions off of the work of their employees. IT employees have only been handed a small fraction of that money. Now, IT companies are now handing those same workers pink slips because some foreigner can supposedly do the work for a fraction of the cost.
IT workers do deserve an "inordinately" large paycheck since they have made their companies inordinate amounts of money. It's a slap in the face for those companies to turn around and fire those employees instead.
We should all join a union and get rid of this BS.
I've seen quite a few community colleges with those types of descriptions. However, 4-year universities do not generally offer these types of courses for juniors and seniors.
I recently reviewed all the schools in the Seattle area for their master's degree offerings. So, I am aware of the offerings of this area. How did you get your information?
The only places "giving" away computer science degrees are places like ITT or University of Phoenix. Employers know not to look at anyone with a degree from there.
However, degrees from decent universities require an enormous amount of intelligence and work to obtain. A student from one of these universities certainly learns more than someone with only a high school diploma doing an equivalent amount of entry-level grunt work.
From the Seattle Times (emphasis mine):
[Judge] Bridges said there was no evidence to suggest fraud, intentional misconduct or any attempt to manipulate the election. He said election officials "attempted to perform their responsibilities in a fair and impartial manner."
While he had stern words about how King County ran the election, Bridges said that even there, Republicans failed to show any intentional wrongdoing.
"While there is evidence of irregularities, as there appears to be in every election based on the testimony of various county election officials, there is no... clear and convincing evidence that improper conduct or irregularity procured Ms. Gregoire's election," the judge said.
Now please stop spreading your lies.
No, I said it correctly. Producing t-shirts and socks in China takes no special skills. Producing software customized to a customer's exact specifications is often beyond India's capability.
If it is 100% about reducing costs, then which makes more sense:
1. Moving a call center to a country with English speakers that are less comprehensible than Indians.
2. Eliminating the call center entirely.
If reducing costs were the entire goal (as you say, "100% about reducing costs"), then companies would always pick #2. However, call centers are still here. Obviously then, reducing costs is NOT the ONLY factor. These call centers must also provide some service to customers.
There is a bare minimum service threshold. One of those bare minimums is that the customer service reps speak English that can be understood by most customers. Given that most customers have problems speaking with Indians, a group that supposedly speaks English natively, I doubt that other countries can match India on this service.
Slashdot Mirror
We had a little revolution to get rid of the monarchy, so excuse us if we don't speak the "Queen's" English.
Sorry... Just had to remind you who you were talking to.
The funny/sad thing is when an American will gripe about a foreigner verbally mangling English...
I have never heard anyone do this.
You need to watch Comedy Central some time!
Sorry, let me rephrase that.
Did you not understand me? It looks like you were just being snide.
The parent never mentioned illegal immigrants.
Let me see. Oh yeah, right here: I do not complain about the strong accents of Mexicans here in Southern California where I now live The previous person was not speaking about hispanic people in general. He was speaking about Mexicans- as in people who are citizens of Mexico. Specifically, citizens of Mexico who are living in the US.
Now, the last time I checked, the US does not grant a lot of Mexican citizens entry to LIVE in the US. The US certainly did NOT grant entry to even a small portion of the 10+ million Mexican citizens currently LIVING in the US.
THAT is why I said illegal immigrants.
It may be logical to assume immigration to the US, but it is not logical to assume that it is legal.
Did you not understand me? Looks like you just being snide.
I structured that sentence very carefully. Read it again. The key words there are "speak" and "fluently".
Learning the basics of a foreign language are one thing that I would say is valuable. But, this thread is focused on conversational language. A foreigner may be 100% grammatically correct in their English, yet still mangle the language.
If you're going to work for or live in the US, then you should speak the language so that it can be understood by the average American.
Interesting that you equate your temporary and probably legal stay in Germany to the illegal and permanent migration of Mexican citizens to the US. It seems to me that these two situations are not the same. Americans have every right to gripe about being forced to deal with foreigners who enter their country illegally.
I have been a foreigner who also lived in Germany, but only for a year. While I generally do not make fun of foreign accents, I have to admit that I have in the past. If anything, poor or unintelligible English now annoys me. But that's probably because my employer and other businesses that I deal with force me to speak with these people. It has come to the point that if I hear the unintelligible up-and-down speech pattern of an Indian on the phone, I will hang up on whatever call I was trying to get help on.
Indians are claiming to be "native" English speakers, when they are not. And it is very easy to manipulate the sales process that corporate executives go through. The best English speakers for these companies are not on the phones, they're in sales and talking to those executives.
The "rational" choice to learn Spanish because of the 10+ million illegal immigrants concentrated in the southwest states is still nonsense. I lived in California, New Mexico, and Texas and got along just fine without knowing any Spanish.
Because these workers are generally illegal, employers tend to hide them. So, the people serving customers in businesses speak English. The times you'd run into Spanish speakers are in your social life, ie not often. The illegal immigrants tend to stay within their own social circles.
This quid-pro-quo nonsense regarding language skills is pure bullshit. Americans are not moving overseas in droves, so they don't need to learn other languages. Americans are not stealing jobs through offshoring companies, so they don't need to learn other languages. Americans are mostly staying right there in America.
There is no point in learning to speak a second language fluently if you're never going to use it. Most Americans aren't going to move out of country. And a good majority of Americans will never leave the country. America's so damn big, that few Americans will run into someone that they have to speak German or French.
However, if you actually do move to another country, then you should be able to speak the language fluently. If you do phone support for another country, then you should be able to speak their language fluently. You can not expect a society to make up for YOUR lack of communication skills.
English is the official language for all intents and purposes in America. If you can't speak English well and you want to live in or work for Americans, then you should learn how.
That is exactly what I was going to say regarding the Civ series. Civ 3 was basically just a graphics upgrade of Civ 2. Hopefully, Civ 4 offers more to enhance the gameplay. But, I doubt they'll make it materially different.
This also reminds me of the SimCity series. SimCity 4 is basically the same as all the other SimCities. If you've played SimCity 1, then you're not going to get much more out of SimCity 4.
Given that I've played all the Civs and SimCities, I know exactly how each game will progress. But occasionally, my memory will fade. Then I'll start a new game. The game will go on for a while and be fairly interesting at first. Then it'll hit me: I know what the end will be. I know because that's the way the end always is. The fun of the game fades away and I shut it off.
... And you don't think American companies are moving to lower cost locations as well? It was big news up here in Seattle this week when the head of Vietnam made a visit to Bill Gates. Seems that Vietnamese programmers make half the salary of Indians. Don't think Microsoft will stay in high-priced India when they can get the same service from low-priced Vietnam.
US companies have been playing this outsourcing game for the last 30 years. Indian companies don't have the experience as US companies. Indian companies only have experience insourcing.
India only has to be more expensive than their competition for US companies to switch. That will happen long before India becomes wealthy.
Have you looked at prices of American furniture lately? We're shipping furniture from China, so it has to be cost-competitive, even with furniture's 200-300% markup.
MOD PARENT UP
Your point is relevant now, but incorrect. The purchasing power of the American still outweighs the Indian in this case, because the American can buy his furniture from India.
Capitalism was around long before globalization. I'd tend to think that countries would prefer isolationism first before moving away from capitalism.
One of the bigwigs in the Windows org once made a mistake in a speach. He told the workers that each one of them had generated millions for the company... The employees then looked at each other and wondered why they weren't millionaires.
The fact is that IT companies have made millions and billions off of the work of their employees. IT employees have only been handed a small fraction of that money. Now, IT companies are now handing those same workers pink slips because some foreigner can supposedly do the work for a fraction of the cost.
IT workers do deserve an "inordinately" large paycheck since they have made their companies inordinate amounts of money. It's a slap in the face for those companies to turn around and fire those employees instead.
We should all join a union and get rid of this BS.
That's irrelevant to my point.
They might make less in dollar terms, but not less in terms of purchasing power.
BS. Good luck trying to buy a car on India's wages. Even the worst-paid American can afford a car.
I've seen quite a few community colleges with those types of descriptions. However, 4-year universities do not generally offer these types of courses for juniors and seniors.
I recently reviewed all the schools in the Seattle area for their master's degree offerings. So, I am aware of the offerings of this area. How did you get your information?
The only places "giving" away computer science degrees are places like ITT or University of Phoenix. Employers know not to look at anyone with a degree from there.
However, degrees from decent universities require an enormous amount of intelligence and work to obtain. A student from one of these universities certainly learns more than someone with only a high school diploma doing an equivalent amount of entry-level grunt work.
Sounds like if they keep crunch mode under 2 months long, then they will get higher productivity.
From the Seattle Times (emphasis mine): [Judge] Bridges said there was no evidence to suggest fraud, intentional misconduct or any attempt to manipulate the election. He said election officials "attempted to perform their responsibilities in a fair and impartial manner."
... clear and convincing evidence that improper conduct or irregularity procured Ms. Gregoire's election," the judge said.
Now please stop spreading your lies.
While he had stern words about how King County ran the election, Bridges said that even there, Republicans failed to show any intentional wrongdoing.
"While there is evidence of irregularities, as there appears to be in every election based on the testimony of various county election officials, there is no
No, I said it correctly. Producing t-shirts and socks in China takes no special skills. Producing software customized to a customer's exact specifications is often beyond India's capability.
If it is 100% about reducing costs, then which makes more sense:
1. Moving a call center to a country with English speakers that are less comprehensible than Indians.
2. Eliminating the call center entirely.
If reducing costs were the entire goal (as you say, "100% about reducing costs"), then companies would always pick #2. However, call centers are still here. Obviously then, reducing costs is NOT the ONLY factor. These call centers must also provide some service to customers.
There is a bare minimum service threshold. One of those bare minimums is that the customer service reps speak English that can be understood by most customers. Given that most customers have problems speaking with Indians, a group that supposedly speaks English natively, I doubt that other countries can match India on this service.