India Will Need to Recruit 120,000 Foreigners

indi_jobs writes "After all the noise about jobs moving from Europe and USA to India, ZDNet India is reporting that 'India faces a massive shortage of workers with European language skills over the next five years which could see the country needing to recruit up to 120,000 foreigners...' Looks like the jobs may be moving to India but they might require the original people to do some of the jobs!" From the article: "Evalueserve said the ramping up of non-English speaking capability by the Indian offshore firms is an attempt to capture a larger share of the continental European outsourcing market, and reduce the country's high-risk exposure of more than 80 per cent of business coming from the UK and the U.S. economies."

Comments

Are Indian workers *that* much cheaper?

[drunkennewfiemidget]

To attract new workers in India and people (as many as 120k) to India, wouldn't they need to offer better benefits, less taxes, higher pay, etc? At that point, wouldn't it make more sense to bring the work back to this side of the ocean?

Re:Are Indian workers *that* much cheaper?

[winkydink]

I'd view it more as "seed stock" so that they can meet the immediate demand until get enough Indians trained in other European languages. Lose money in the short term, make money in the long run.

Re:Are Indian workers *that* much cheaper?

[mgrassi99]

This is the beginning of the great "equalization." It won't be long until Indian workers (and foreign workers in India) demand a standard of living that drives up their required salaries. Since the globalization scare began a couple years ago (actually, its been happened for decades), I've been saying it can't last for too long, now that we're all part of one global economy and not packetized in little closed-off sections of the world.

Re:Are Indian workers *that* much cheaper?

[ninja_assault_kitten]

Or hire Mexicans.

Re:Are Indian workers *that* much cheaper?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd say this is the beginning of the great shafting. It's where all the workers have to move to the country with the least workers rights, lowest pay and the crappiest exchange rate in order to get a job.

Re:Are Indian workers *that* much cheaper?

[mislam]

IT companies particularly in Bangalore offer high pay scale and lots of benefits. The scale compared to the US is measly but by the living standards in India it is indeed very high. Cheaper is a relative term. Cheaper comparing to US standard? Yes, but definitely not cheap comparing to local standard.

Re:Are Indian workers *that* much cheaper?

[mgrassi99]

You know that certainly has a better ring to it.

Re:Are Indian workers *that* much cheaper?

[Anonymous Coward]

Or hire Mexicans.

It's un-PC to say so, but Mexico doesn't have the pool of highly-skilled and educated workers that India has.

Re:Are Indian workers *that* much cheaper?

[WayHomer]

To attract new workers in India and people (as many as 120k) to India, wouldn't they need to offer better benefits, less taxes, higher pay, etc? At that point, wouldn't it make more sense to bring the work back to this side of the ocean?

They'll make it up with volume.

Re:Are Indian workers *that* much cheaper?

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly. Paying about Rs 20000 a month to the IT guys translates to $460 a month, or $5,513 a year. This is the usual amount of money that techies get here. The top ones may get five times as much, but I think it is still low by US standards.
And of course, there are less rules here about "health benefits", etc. In fact, most of the IT workers here lead pathetic lives --- most of them work more than 15 hours a day, etc. (On an unrelated note, the call centre workers are even more miserable --- they get paid A LOT less, and they have to work at odd hours of the night because of the time zones.)
But still, it's a lot more money --- for instance, someone working at a clerical or officer level in a bank may get that much money, or someone who has been a professor for many years. Land rates have gone up in Bangalore, mainly because the IT guys are so much richer than the others.

Re:Are Indian workers *that* much cheaper?

[Anonymous Coward]

Except for the stench of being around a bunch of smelly, non-bathing heathens.

Re:Are Indian workers *that* much cheaper?

[ThePromenader]

Lord, this article's biased. They need educated people, not just "people". People who know about the products they're hired to make, or are making themselves. I imagine that many people with this knowledge would be, today, foreigners. Add the needs together and I'm sure you'll have quite a number.

This article does not at all put into a proper perspective (and context) the industries 'grunt work' done by the *cough* not-as-priviledged. In fact, it blurs the lines to make things look "not so bad'.

Humph.

Re:Are Indian workers *that* much cheaper?

[JohnFluxx]

I heard that for these purposes the labour force of india+3rd world countries can be considered infinite, thus this wouldn't happen.

Re:Are Indian workers *that* much cheaper?

[Uber Banker]

Personally speaking, and I don't claim to account for 120k people, I would love it.

I have certain USD denominated costs, and certain local currency costs. USD costs are payments on student loans, savings (assuming I'm USD-block based in the longer term). My local currency costs are accomodation, food, entertainment; if I 'go native' these are fecking low.

I would be pretty happy to 'go native'. Accomodation, in a safe area, should be less, I love Indian food (the real kind, not a diet of lager and tikka masala, and have a reasonably strong digestive system), my in-depth knowledge of Bollywood is lacking but I'm always open to new ideas.

Of course I am not all people. In particular I am not a project manager with 20 years experience, which, I would imagine, would be the ideal target. I do have 4 years at a top financial company with project management, finance, and IT, experience, however. Yet I find myself effectively working a subsistence lifestyle: earn just enought to pay the rent in what is a very modest appartment, manage some entertainment and loan repayments, but have a disappointing level of savings after that. I'm well up for the move. While personally speaking, I think a good proportion of the graduate populations US/Canadian/UK/Australian populations with a similar level of work experience would be well up for it too - 120k is not a large number.

Where do I sign up?

Re:Are Indian workers *that* much cheaper?

[Anonymous Coward]

At that point, wouldn't it make more sense to bring the work back to this side of the ocean?

If the reason for this shortage is the lack of proficency in non-English european languages among Indians, I don't see how shipping these jobs to the US would solve the problem...

Re:Are Indian workers *that* much cheaper?

[DigitalOSH]

The thing is, "foreigners" doesnt necessarily mean westerners. There are a lot of well educated, underpaid workers in places like the Gulf, the UAE, etc... Those people will probably be more likely to come over to India, if India only upped their standards slightly...

Re:Are Indian workers *that* much cheaper?

[cyclopropene]

we're all part of one global economy and not packetized in little closed-off sections of the world.

You don't work in a cubicle, do you?

Re:Are Indian workers *that* much cheaper?

[homer_ca]

There's a long way to go with that. India has a billion people, most of them poor and uneducated. An IT professional working for one of those offshoring contractors could live very comfortably on a fraction of the wages of an American or European worker. So the cost savings of moving to India will not abate. What will happen is that even poorer countries than India will compete for outsourcing work. If globalization means spreading the wealth around (minus the cut skimmed off by the oligarchs), working folks here better get used to living more poorly, much more poorly.

Re:Are Indian workers *that* much cheaper?

[Alex P Keaton in da]

Perhaps I am confused- Aren't we (the US) giving more HIB Visas, and aren't tech leaders saying we need to import more tech workers? (I think I read this on Slashdot that Bill Gates was saying the US will have a huge shortage). So where are these workers coming from? If the US and India are going to need to import workers, who will export them? (I don't mean to speak of people as a commodity, but the words fit)I know that this is a huge world, but what country will do the exporting?
On a side note, I cancelled my satellite radio because I was so angry I called customer service, which is in India, and A: I couldn't understand the representative (and I live in NE Ohio, where there are tons of foreign born people, from Africa, Eastern Europe, Asia etc and I am able to communicate with all of them, so it isn't that I have trouble understanding non-american dialects of English). I also switched banks because when I called my bank (my bank has its world headquarters in Cleveland, 20 miles from me) I got customer service in India, and couldn't understand the representative. Most of my Indian friends speak the Queen's English, which is easy for me to understand- so it seems that Indian companies are lowering their standards of hire. And no this isn't an American Centric view- if you are going to use customer service people to speak to people in another country, the people you hire ought to hbe understandable to those in that country.

Re:Are Indian workers *that* much cheaper?

[beforewisdom]

I'm thinking of a Dilbert cartoon I saw where the pointy haired boss was asking a savage in a jungle if he new some computer language.

If Indian I.T. workers with good American English are in short supply I.T. companies will go find people in another dirt poor country working for peanuts. That or there will be classes in India to polish up on American English.

India has a billion people, most horribly poor.

If they get help ( financing from a foriegn corporaton ) in acquiring the skills they need they will do it and it will still be a bargain for the foriegn companies.

Re:Are Indian workers *that* much cheaper?

[Zoxed]

> It won't be long until Indian workers (and foreign workers in India) demand a standard of living that drives up their required salaries.

AFAIK this is already happening: tech. salaries in India shooting up, and Indian firms starting to out-source to Pakistan and China.

Re:Are Indian workers *that* much cheaper?

[Chibi]

Yet I find myself effectively working a subsistence lifestyle: earn just enought to pay the rent in what is a very modest appartment, manage some entertainment and loan repayments, but have a disappointing level of savings after that.

Have you considered living with a roommate to save some money? College gave me enough experience to know that I never wanted a roommate again, but others are probably more open-minded.

While personally speaking, I think a good proportion of the graduate populations US/Canadian/UK/Australian populations with a similar level of work experience would be well up for it too - 120k is not a large number.

Opinions are like... some part of the body. ;) Anyway, this is also personal preference, but my guess is that you would not have a large portion of the graduate population that would want to live in India. When most people idealizae living abroad, they usually think of Europe, *maybe* Japan, or some other places which have a certain level of trendiness to them. India doesn't fit my image of that. But, like you said, 120k isn't actually a lot of people. Also, just want to point out that I don't think my opinion on this particular topic is any more valid than yours, just different.

Re:Are Indian workers *that* much cheaper?

[Anonymous Coward]

I heard that for these purposes the labour force of india+3rd world countries can be considered infinite, thus this wouldn't happen.

This story is about educated labour "with European language skills". In this case, not an infinite resource.

Re:Are Indian workers *that* much cheaper?

[Jherek Carnelian]

I'd view it more as "seed stock" so that they can meet the immediate demand until get enough Indians trained in other European languages. Lose money in the short term, make money in the long run.

The clearly the way to combat this trend is to get as many Indian outsourcers listed on US stock exchanges. Once wall-street takes over, all long-term thinking will cease and the jobs will return "home" to the USA!

Re:Are Indian workers *that* much cheaper?

[Jherek Carnelian]

my in-depth knowledge of Bollywood is lacking but I'm always open to new ideas.

You had better learn to love musicals. If there ain't dancing and singing, it didn't come from Bollywood.

Re:Are Indian workers *that* much cheaper?

[Crapshoot]

Except you won't survive, much like the average person here claiming that the work will come to them, or claiming their english skills are top notch. Can you deal with your electricity randomly going for hours ? can you deal with Indian summers, where 100 degree weather is not uncommon ? Can you deal with the different cultural things, from details like going day/month/year to driving on the different side of the road with more "optional" traffic laws ? Can you live without the instant gratification that we're used to here ? Then lets look at income - to have the same kind of lifestyle that you have here (assuming you make 80K, and using a purchasing parity level of 8 rupees to the dollar) - you would need to make 640,000 rupees (or 6 lakhs a year) for a similar life. If you think anyone's going to pay you that as a 4 year IT tech, you're kidding yourself. Look, I was born in India and lived there for a while, and moved around (am a conventional Third Culture kid) - its very easy for people to move from India to the US, but its very hard to do the reverse, be it the cultural shock and the atmosphere. Its a cute idea, but its not a viable option for most of you guys.

Re:Are Indian workers *that* much cheaper?

[TheSync]

We've been seeing Indian IT salary rises of about 10% per year for many years now. Most recently:

http://www.asia.cnet.com/news/perspectives/0,39037 107,39225948,00.htm

"Average Indian salaries in the [IT] field rose 12 percent last year, and they are expected to rise by about 15 percent across the industry again this year."

Re:Are Indian workers *that* much cheaper?

[kaalamaadan]

If Indian I.T. workers with good American English are in short supply

Which part of "continental" "European" "languages" did your excellency find slippery in comprehending?

Re:Are Indian workers *that* much cheaper?

[Uber Banker]

Many questions. Could you?

Yes, I think I could.

I have lived in the UK, which provided my with experience of those little things like dd/mm/yy to driving on the other side of the road, and I coped. I lived in China (where, if in a traffic accident, it is cheaper to make sure you're dead than pay maintainence for injuries) for a year and picked up a fair bit of the language as well as enjoying another culture and a vastly different diet, that was envigorating fun.

I think I'd love India. I have no ties, am extremely easy going, and very open to change. No, I'm not the average, but 120k is not a large amount of people.

As for income, my present status, per month, is:
$1k for rent
$300 for loan repayments
$300 for entertainment
$300 for home food/drinks
$200 for misc
residual as savings, but I do try to target it

PPP is flawed as a concept in application to an individual as their PPP index will be unique. The loan repayments and monthly savings of £200/month are the key target when fixed in USD. Then the salary is in focus. Still, I think 120k people is not a large number, at all.

I am also not a regular 4 year IT tech, but I guess everyone says that ;p

Re:Are Indian workers *that* much cheaper?

[Anonymous Coward]

yeah the equalization will happen soon or later. As marx said wealth can not remain concentrated in a particuler point for long time. There will be revolution soon or later.

As in capitalism you can profit only by selling your goods or product more you to do so you have to improve it and lower it costs. After a time you can not lower your cost in material then you wll do it on the salary of the people who produce the product. But agian these same people generally buy your product from market. When this continues there will be a economic crash soon , and it is not first time that this happened after the industrial revolution.

As an Indian and a IT professional I shall be able live better life than 80 % of my country men but still I have a deep sorrow that my own country is not pruducing the technology , we just work like machines for 10% of the salary of the US ppl , and that is why jobs are coming here so US ppl have to live with lesser jobs and less salary (direct result of competetion in capitalist market)

Re:Are Indian workers *that* much cheaper?

[Anonymous Coward]

I speak three european languages other than english. While I almost moved to the UK for a technical job including european language support I wouldn't move to India under any circumstance. The reason? I find the culture there uninteresting. Europe is already needing technical people that speak many european languages so there's no unemployment fear for the time being if you have the right skills.

Re:Are Indian workers *that* much cheaper?

[sfid]

Pfft, most of the EU will also speak English soon enough too... (though probably not the American variant, more like the Swedish Chef weirdish type :))

Seriously.

http://economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=S%2 7%29H4%2CQ17%2B%210%21%24%0A

Re:Are Indian workers *that* much cheaper?

[91degrees]

It's something I've been expecting to see for a while. It's something I see as a benefit of outsourcing. In 20 years time, I think India is going to be a major player in the tech industry, with a couple of fairly significant software or electronics companies. Much like Japan quickly became a major player in electronics, and much of the pacific rim became major players in the semiconductor industry.

But this is wild specualtion and since I'm no economist, may be completely wrong.

Re:Are Indian workers *that* much cheaper?

[clohman]

No, cost of living will always be lower in India because of their caste-stratified economic system. Caste specialization leads to a more efficient national economy, human rights considerations aside.

Re:Are Indian workers *that* much cheaper?

[beforewisdom]

LOL!

Re:Are Indian workers *that* much cheaper?

[dodobh]

India is importing call centre employees for European languages. These are not technical skills.

The salaries are lower than in Europe, but include accomodation (with servants) and transport.

Re:Are Indian workers *that* much cheaper?

[Suhas]

Are you serious or are you, like your name suggests, shooting crap? 6 Lakhs/year for an engineer with 4 years of experience is too high? When was the last time you went to India? Fresh engineers with 0 experience get starting salaries around 6-8 Lakhs a year now. A 4+ year experience can easily get paid between 9-12 Lakhs a year.

Re:Are Indian workers *that* much cheaper?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is a typical response of people who choose to think in stereotypes. The caste system has been pretty much driven out of the workplace in india (especially in urban areas) with very harsh laws (jail terms for caste slurs) and affirmative action.

You don't think all (or even a majority of) IT professionals in India are from "higher" castes, do you ?

Re:Are Indian workers *that* much cheaper?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why don't they just take their own job stealing citizens back from the US and Europe?

Fuck Indians. They come over here and are willing to work for half the pay so us real programmers get the axe for a bunch of wogs who can barely write code.

Re:Are Indian workers *that* much cheaper?

[williewang]

Largely yes, but sometimes there isn't that much of a cost advantage. What one finds, however (and this is *not* directed at you personally), is a workforce that not only can offer quality, but a populace that generally has a beautiful quality of its own: they don't bitch. They don't bitch and moan and cry and whine like children stamping their feet in the snow because it's cold and they can't ride their Big Wheel. It's sooooo nice to work with Indians. Yes, at times there is a language/accent barrier, but most of the time they just do what is asked--get it done.

I've seen the same thing with Mexican labor in the construction industry here in the American Southwest. They just do the job and, if they don't like it anymore, they leave. No hassles, no drama, just "pay me and I'll do what you tell me to do. Become an asshole, and I'll leave." That's the well-known secret, I think, Americans (and I'm one of them) can be not only expensive, but a royal pain the ass to work with sometimes. And, the other well-known secret, they are oftentimes not very good.

As an American, and a WASPy white male, and a verteran, and one who loves my mother, apple pie, and baseball, I say if guys in India can get it done for a nickel less and in a much more pleasant manner, give them the work and let the UNIX "admin" who doesn't know what to do with a file that is tar'd *and* gzip'd go flip burgers (yes, I really did meet that guy). Apparently, I'm not the only one who feels this way given this new potential need of India's.

Re:Are Indian workers *that* much cheaper?

[Tablizer]

I've been saying it can't last for too long

But there are still a lot of untapped people. Only the upper and middle class in India has access to education. What will happen if/when rest get access? And, places like South Africa, once also a British colony, is also hopping into the biz offshoring market.

It may even out, but not in my lifetime (unless the US dollar continues to free-fall).

Re:Are Indian workers *that* much cheaper?

[ohri]

" To attract new workers in India and people (as many as 120k) to India, wouldn't they need to offer better benefits, less taxes, higher pay, etc? " I guess what you mean is a better standard of living . You should remember that India already has a low tax structure for people employed in ITES and IT services. And since everything is relatively cheap you get a better or an equivalent standard of living (if not all the luxuries) at a much lesser cost than the US or UK.

Re:Are Indian workers *that* much cheaper?

[Anonymous Coward]

> It won't be long until Indian workers (and foreign workers in India) demand a
> standard of living that drives up their required salaries. Since the
> globalization scare began a couple years ago (actually, its been happened for
> decades), I've been saying it can't last for too long, now that we're all part
> of one global economy and not packetized in little closed-off sections of the
> world.

If only we'd listened to you!

Once India becomes too expensive, there's always Thailand, Korea, China... In the West a job is more than just someone doing some work - there's maternity leave, paid holidays, pensions, unions, blah blah blah. In developing countries you turn up and work or you don't get paid (or you get fired).

Re:Are Indian workers *that* much cheaper?

[JohnFluxx]

Yes, but the parent posts were talking about in the future. Sigh.

Re:Are Indian workers *that* much cheaper?

[debiansid]

The incoming demand is for non-English speaking European workforce. Most of the offshoring is from the English speaking countries (US, UK most noteworthy). So getting jobs back to that side of the ocean is really not feasible yet. Take this for an example.

One can pay a senior S/w developer Rs 50000 in India (4-5 yrs of exp.) thats about $1000. How many US s/w guys with 5 years of experience would work in US for $1000 per month?

Also,Rs 50,000 per month in India means living in a posh apartment, owning a big car and living a luxurious life.

India getting European workforce into India means that it will do anything to keep the business that they have in hand till they can train people at home in European languages.

Re:Are Indian workers *that* much cheaper?

[sjames]

To attract new workers in India and people (as many as 120k) to India, wouldn't they need to offer better benefits, less taxes, higher pay, etc? At that point, wouldn't it make more sense to bring the work back to this side of the ocean?

It would in the long term, but the people making the decision to outsource can't see past the end of the quarter.

Basically, what they're benefiting from is the cost of living difference between the U.S. and India. As boutsourcing continues, the standard of living for IT workers in India will more or less rise to what U.S. workers expect. It will stioll be cheaper to outsource since it won't cost as much in U.S. dollars to provide that standard of living in India as it would in the U.S.

Of course, this means less income in the U.S. economy, which means retail sales go down. That means cutbacks by U.S. businesses, which means that the big outsourcers will have to drop their prices and, of course, more layoffs. The U.S. government will continue reporting thet there's more than enough (crappy, minimum wage) jobs to go around.

Still later, India will have the skilled workers, and will wisely start their own companies using the influx of capital from the U.S. They will then compete the U.S. outsourcers into the dirt and (probably) start outsourcing to some other country. Lather, Rinse, Suffer poverty, Repeat.

There are factors that could stop the above, or at least slow it down. For example, if the U.S. dollar manages to lose half of it's current value, the new buzzword will be INsourcing.

Re:Are Indian workers *that* much cheaper?

[clohman]

If you know that much about caste discrimination laws, you also know they're enforced half-heartedly at best. You're correct that progress in caste equality has been made in urban centers, though. But that's less due to the laws than a slight trend in meritocracy due to high demand for IT workers, and lack of community collaboration in determining dalits' identities. The disparity between urban & rural areas is great; you have probably heard the story of a dalit born in a village who became a successful businessman in the city but was beaten whenever he returned home.

I couldn't say whether a majority of Indian IT pros are higher-caste. But I've worked with about 70 Indian H1Bs & offshore guys & deduced or asked the caste of about half. All in that limited sample are kshatriya or Brahmin. I'd guess that's because of more educational opportunities and greater ability to travel. Has your direct experience shown otherwise?

People think in stereotypes because they hold true more often than not.

Re:Are Indian workers *that* much cheaper?

[Anonymous Coward]

I am been passively reading these posting regarding cost of living , salaries, standard of life in india vs. US / UK.

Being from india and been in US for 6 years. I can so there is no direct comparision between the standard of life between US and india. For companies the real number US dollar vs indian Rs probably matters most.

From $1000 per month in india to $8000 per month in silicon valley seems a huge number but again its what you can afford with that money compared to your counterparts in other industries.

In valley $8000 per month engineer salary is just enough to live a decent life ( no luxuries from US standards) and $1000 in india is more or less the same.

6 years back the difference between my salary in valley and in india was good 10-12 times. Today I don't see it more than 4 times. After putting all the expenses and everything together, I guess it boils down 2.5 to 3 times more saving than working in india.

Given the speed at which indian salries are increasing and so the standard of life (in terms of availablity and affordability of western comforts and lifestyle). I don't see much difference between working in india or in US for
an engineer.

one word:

[dlefavor]

karma

Re:one word:

[Anonymous Coward]

Being an Indian myself, and one who uses the word karma very often, I frown upon every instance of the word used by foriegners (westerneners mostly) I come across. And also Indians geeks who aren't familiar with that word. Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming anyone. People have put a lot of effort to understand the concept and I appreciate that. It's just that you can't really "get" the usage of the word unless you've either lived in a traditional part of India (or some other largely-Hindu or Buddhist country) or put a lot effort to learn its usage. For starters, karma is the cause, not the effect like a lot of people think. And even usages of the word as the cause I've seen are somewhat wrong and awkward (especially seeing them in different languages). It's hard to explain why. That's one of the reasons I never use words/concepts from cultures/religions I'm not familiar with.

Re:one word:

[quarkscat]

I certainly had no intention of insulting anyone's religious beliefs in the use of the word "karma".

I do think that I have a rather basic understanding of the word, however, when used in its religious context. IMHO, karma is both cause and effect, both yin and yang, and circles within circles. Its manifestations cross cycles of life, but also exist within a single lifetime. Karma is the great force of equilibrium.

Re:one word:

[Anonymous Coward]

It's OK, I didn't say I was insulted :) I was just politely pointing out a nuance. And I'm not asking you to stop using the word either. After all people using it only puts my religion/culture in good light :)

Re:one word:

[Anonymous Coward]

And now for the technical point: Although "karma" can be used to refer to both the cause and effect, it's almost always used to refer to just the cause and not effect. For example, a verse from a very important Hindu religious document (Bhagavadgeeta) says Karmanyevadhikaraste ma phaleshu kadachana, which means "You only have the authority/control over your actions (karma) and not over the results". And no, karma doesn't represent a "force of equilibrium" (not in such a broad sense, anyway).

Re:one word:

[quarkscat]

I have found that there are many admirable traits to be found within "eastern" religions. The only aspect of Hinduism that I find to be particularly negative is the rigid caste system it engenders. If the cross-pollination of religions between east and west had been more vigorous since Alexander, the European "Age of Enlightenment" might never have occurred.

Re:one word:

[quarkscat]

I am in your debt.

It was part of my understanding that karma represented (in simplified western terms) "that what comes around, goes around". Meaning that proper and honorable actions would be rewarded in this or some subsequent lifetime: likewise as a punishment for improper and dishonorable actions.

Your description would seem to deny any attribution of the Hindu religion as a basis for the enforcement of the rigid caste system, which would make it more of a cultural issue not so unlike the western adoption of slavery (after a fashion). Slavery in the West found no validation in the Christian religion, although verses were sometimes misquoted in attempts to justify it.

It looks like I need to spend much more time reading about religions, and less time writing about them. Could you point me toward an English language treatese on Hinduism to bring me toward a greater understanding?

Re:one word:

[Anonymous Coward]

You might look here:
http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/

or

http://hinduism.about.com/library/weekly/extra/bl- gitatext.htm

Re:one word:

[dodobh]

The caste system comes from the Manusmruti. Originally, the caste hierarchy was decided by the work that people did, and not by their birth.

However, as is the case with all classifications and power groups, the caste system became rigid and depended on the caste of the parents.

You can see this happening in the religious texts (Saint Parshuram destroyed the entire warrior caste on earth 21 times according to the Ramayana, and he stayed a Brahmin because he was a scholar. FWIW, Parshu means axe).

The basic classification:

Brahmin -- people who indulge in scholarly activities, and work with pure knowledge stuff.

Kshatriya -- people who indulge in acts of force, and whose duty was to defend society against invaders and crime.

Vaishya -- Traders

Kshudra -- The rest.

Ahem

[Anonymous Coward]

Ha HA!

Dear India:

[phyruxus]

My resume is on my web page.

Re:Dear India:

[RealAlaskan]

My resume is on my web page.

And it says:

Languages:
C/C++, Perl, Lisp, Java,
Visual Basic, HTML,
CGI-scripting, DOS Batch.

Sorry, none of those are ``European'' languages. You're screwed.

Re:Dear India:

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear India:
(http://www.angelfire.com/oz/tinman5)
My resume is on my web page.

ahh an angelfire website, we would of preffered geocities but as they are equally prestigious, you'll fit right in.

Re:Dear India:

[soft_guy]

How is C++ not european? (It was created by a european, Barjne Stroustrup, presumably in europe.)

Re:Dear India:

[ohri]

Seeing your comprehensive resume ... it will be a bit difficult finding a programming or a call centre job. Guess who's screwed..

hmm

[compro01]

i guess they're gonna need to outsource back over to this side of the ocean.

Re:hmm

[sheridan3003]

How Sad that they may have to actually outsource some work. Maybe once they outsource back to us we can show them how to do it properly!

Re:hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

it looks like from the article they need translaters, for languages besides english. i would say too bad the language i randomly choose to learn for the heck of it (and a summer project) is not on the list of languages they had and that i dont speak hindi but i dont regret it and thinkamerica should keep the jobs, not because we deserve to for some reason just because i am an american. maybe we could get a few people from india to work out why the hell we suddenly have to type these word combos they have hidden in the picture before you can post.

Re:hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry -- you said you spoke English?

ROFLs

[brickballs]

I dont know about anybody else, but I find it freaking hilarious that they need more people to handle all the jobs that we outsourced over there.

Re:ROFLs

[FirstTimeCaller]

I dont know about anybody else, but I find it freaking hilarious that they need more people to handle all the jobs that we outsourced over there.

No. Not particularly...

The fact that India is getting more work than they can handle (for the moment) does not make me smile. Quite the opposite in fact.

Re:ROFLs

[Anonymous Coward]

Just more proof that the global economy provides challenges and opportunities for every country that participates and that things aren't always as black-and-white as some would have us believe.

Re:ROFLs

[MagicDude]

The problem isn't that they don't have enough english speakers, the problem is that they don't have enough spanish, italian, french, german, etc speakers. English is very prevelant over there. My parents have told me that their highschool classes were taught in english. My father is constantly asked if he was born in England based upon his diction and pronouncation.

Re:ROFLs

[JWW]

What the shortage in India says to me is that businesses are all so caught up in getting on the next bandwagon that they always go wayyy overboard.

What was particularly appealing to them wrt oursourcing was that businesses were so mad at themselves for overdoing things during the internet boom that they were more than happy to overdo their "revenge" on the workforce.

Re:ROFLs

[shokk]

Now would be a great time to pull the rug out and bring those jobs back here. And so would right now. And now. Any day now.

Seriously, we hire then at 1/3 the cost, but we've found it takes 3x them, plus the time of US workers to clean up the sloppy work. With a huge lag in communications, this really doesn't add up to being in the black in the long run. Does anyone remember the long run?

Re:ROFLs

[Anonymous Coward]

"The fact that India is getting more work than they can handle (for the moment) does not make me smile. Quite the opposite in fact."

What a xenophobic statement. Why do you think someone deserves the opportunity to improve their quality of life and provide for their family just because they live within the same imaginary boundary as you?

Re:ROFLs

[brickballs]

I agree with you for the most part, but honestly; I think its not so much that they are sloppy workers (not all of them anyways) as it it communication and cultural issues that are the problem.

my origional post was more of a stick-it-to-the-man, screw-the-corpirations post than it was a screw India thing.

I have some friends in India and theyr really cool people. I'm glad that they'l be able to find a job easily.

Re:ROFLs

[shokk]

Miscommunication has a *lot* to do with it, but you can't blame everything on it. The skill level is not there for all. Yes, there is some talent, and the salaries are going to float up as competition rises - it's already hitting a fever pitch. And then it will no longer be economical to outsource and the jobs will either come back or float elsewhere, like China or Eastern Europe.

Please do not construe my comments as anything like "screw India" so much as "build the USA back up, please....please?" I've been to India and frankly it's the friendliest place I've been. But, you see, I've developed a fondness for eating and shelter.

Re:ROFLs

[FirstTimeCaller]

Why do you think someone deserves the opportunity to improve their quality of life and provide for their family just because they [don't] live within the same imaginary boundary as you?

Because it comes at the expense of my ability to maintain my quality of life and provide for my family.

They're welcome to look out for their own self interests, but if you don't mind, I will retain the right to do so as well. No xenophobia involved here.

Oh, and the boundaries are not imaginary. If nothing else, consider them as areas of differing "costs-of-living".

Re:ROFLs

[TheSync]

The fact that India is getting more work than they can handle (for the moment) does not make me smile.

It should, because the richer they get, the richer we get. The global economy is not a zero sum game. Everyone benefits from global economic growth, because every free market transaction is an increase in wealth for both sides (or else they would not have engaged in the transaction).

I predict that US GDP and Indian GDP will both continue. Unless someone gets more socialist.

Re:ROFLs

[brickballs]

alright, thats cool

Re:ROFLs

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do you think someone deserves the opportunity to improve their quality of life and provide for their family just because they live within the same imaginary boundary as you?

Why do you think I deserved to lose my house, family, car, everything so they could improve their quality of life? You're just as xenophobic with your own statement.

Re:ROFLs

[Anonymous Coward]

You americans are so funny. You are super-lazy bad programmers and we Indians took your jobs.

I read that in Kansas, you are teaching religion instead of evolution. Ha ha. Why don't you pray to your Jesus for a job?

Ha. Ha.

Re:ROFLs

[Johnny5000]

It should, because the richer they get, the richer we get.

I'd say that at least in part depends on your definition of "we"

Re:ROFLs

[shokk]

Err... If I recall, the Christians make up more of the Indian population than the Sikh. 2.3% vs 1.9%, which might sound small until you remember that we're talking about over a billion people.

You reveal your own pathetic personal character by assuming that I'm in any way associated with Kansas or a fundamentalist Christian. Hope that helps you out somehow in life. I guess you're not one of the nice Indian folk I met while traveling there.

Get out your keyboards. . .

[Nomihn0]

Looks like the jobs may be moving to India but they might require the original people to do some of the jobs!

Ah, the joys of documenting others' code.

Re:Get out your keyboards. . .

[Shazow]

Well, in all technicality, if the job was outsourced from someone, then outsourced back to the same person, then said person would be documenting the person's own code.

Joy indeed. :-)

Re:Get out your keyboards. . .

[Anonymous Coward]

I think we need to wait and see if this is anymore use the KHTML developers before we go proclaiming Apple as the good guys... :)

Sorry, but that's just bs... the "KHTML developers" picked the license, and Apple gave back as much as they had to according to that license.
That's it, that's the whole thing; Apple never were the bad guys, because they did what they have to.

Now Apple is doing even more than they have to, and now you are waiting for the "KHTML developers" to say if they like it or not before figuring out if Apple are they good guys or not???

Wake up and realize that Apple's doing more than they have to, now it's up to the "KHTML developers" to figure out if they 1) want to use to code or 2) can use the code.

If they can't use the code, then what would Apple have to do to make them the good guys in your book??? Hire people to teach them and/or do the programming for them?

Sorry USA...

[rsidd]

Looks like the jobs may be moving to India but they might require the original people to do some of the jobs!

Given that non-English language skills are the problem, Americans are still out of luck...

Re:Sorry USA...

[ewg]

Ya, if dey need somebuddy withan upper Grea' Lakes accent, I'm der man, eh?

Re:Sorry USA...

[Dystopian Rebel]

There once was a time when Canadians would have refused to work in any country that could not freeze a pond for a quick game of shinny.

But now, Canadians have been weaned from their love of hockey by the NHLPA strike. India is a real possibility... if the beer is at least 5% alcohol.

Re:Sorry USA...

[Anonymous Coward]

Given that non-English language skills are the problem, Americans are still out of luck...

Why do you hate freedom?

Re:Sorry USA...

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually beer has alcohol content between 6% & 8% out here.

Re:Sorry USA...

[dodobh]

Often more than 5%.
http://www.mouthshut.com/review/KingFisher_Beer-71 50-1.html

And Kingfisher strong is between 6-8%.

Re:Sorry USA...

[Anonymous Coward]

It was not a strike by NHLPA, it was a lock-out by the greedy owners.

Hmmm

[puppetman]

To combat the labour shortage, India should outsource the work to North America and Europe. Lots of surplus labour. And the way wages are climbing in India, the West might be able to do it cheaper.

Re:Hmmm

[Tyler Durden]

So what's Hindi for "Dere takin' arr jooooooobbs!"?

Re:Hmmm

[basking2]

Maybe you were kidding... maybe you're astute. In any case it's a shame this got marked "Funny" when it's dead-on correct. :) I dearly wish more people grasped this and stopped sounding the hollow bell of doom. Now immigration doesn't have a natural check / balance on it like capitalist economics does. I'm more worried about the influx of out-of-work Mexicans who may be looking for opportunity or may just be the losers in the society. In either case, it'll wack our economy silly and it's not a ride I care to take. About the only good side I can see to it is that it will force our Socialist tendencies into bankruptcy faster so we can make real plans and real social-saftey nets that work. Sam

Re:Hmmm

[CAIMLAS]

Let's hope it doesnt come to something which would destroy the government, but somehow still manages to destroy the Marxist element of our society.

Social-safety net? Aside from the theoretical Communistic/socialistic safety net philosophy, the only one I'm aware of involves some twine, interwoven into canopies on large ships to prevent people from falling overboard.

Re:Hmmm

[Tablizer]

Relevant Cartoon

Re:Hmmm

[basking2]

Saftey net in this context means that the government gives to the person something they have not earned. Communist countries doen't have saftey nets because everyone is already in the net. Rather than letting some succeed and protect others, they bring down others so that misery is spread equally. In other systems (including the US's quasi-capitalism) there are often elements that act as safty nets because while we all want to succeed, we want to bound failure out of fear that one day it may be us suffering. Make sense? I honestly have no clue what you mean by tossing out the word "Marxist." :\ The US is so far removed from that paradigm that I really don't see how it's applicable.

One way ticket

[dfn5]

I see a problem with this. I knew people who moved to America from Brazil, worked at McDonalds for a few years, and went home rich. If we Americans go to India to work we'll be stuck there because we won't be able to afford to move back.

Re:One way ticket

[WoBIX]

Wow, in order to have saving from working at McDonalds you'd have to live in squalor for a couple of years. Or at least share a place with half a dozen roommates.

Were they living in really small towns where the rent was cheap, or larger urban centers and putting up with slum living?

Re:One way ticket

[rjordan]

I seriously doubt ANYONE made it rich my any standards working in McDonald's... I know the math and stuff - but you still have to live somewhere and eat while you are here... you knew people or you knew of people?

Re:One way ticket

[pla]

If we Americans go to India to work we'll be stuck there because we won't be able to afford to move back.

I fail to see the problem, if we'll have a comparable (or better) standard of living there... Finally a good chance to escape the ship before it completely goes down!


Squeek Squeek, baby!


Hmm, I wonder if Hindu zealots seem as annoying as Fundies/NeoCons....

Re:One way ticket

[cahiha]

and the problem would be what exactly?

Re:One way ticket

[mangu]

I seriously doubt ANYONE made it rich my any standards working in McDonald's...

I think the parent post was at least half true. People go to the USA and get a job at the McDonald's. They work hard at it for a while, learn some English and get another job, let's say as a waiter in a restaurant. After they get proficient in English, they get a job as bartender, where tips make a difference.

Yes, it's possible that someone might go to the USA, get a job at the McDonald's and, after some years, go back to their country with some savings.

The difference between Americans and foreigners is that when an American gets a job at the McDonald's he's moving down the social ladder, the foreigner is moving up.

Re:One way ticket

[Anonymous Coward]

Yepp... that's the idea, boy...
We can't afford the sinking less and less middle class in North America, ou should go where you belong to... third world...

Re:One way ticket

[prasad1958]

Very Funny ! Guys across the ocean should realise that Indians have been exploited for ages of their natural resources,had a struggling economy but a vibrant democracy,and are just now seeing a little bit of sunshine-economically-why this rancour over nothing ?

Re:One way ticket

[RealAlaskan]

Hmm, I wonder if Hindu zealots seem as annoying as Fundies/NeoCons....

Well, see for yourself.

Some folks think they're really inflammatory.

Others call them mass murders.

Re:One way ticket

[mrchaotica]

I live in a normal middle-class suberb of Atlanta. Around here the houses are mostly occupied by normal American nuclear families, but sometimes you find a single house occupied by a Mexican immigrant... and about 20 of his family and closest friends. I once saw seven people packed into a tiny car (a Chevy Corsica or something), commuting home from the construction site where they apparently worked.

So yes, the way they're accumulating savings from low-wage jobs is by sacrificing personal space (but not living in squalor; their houses tend to be more kept-up than those of the people around them).

Re:One way ticket

[mrchaotica]

Because we have our cake, and want to keep it long enough to eat it. You can call it "selfish," or you can call it "rational self-interest" -- it just depends on your perspective.

Re:One way ticket

[rjordan]

Now that I can buy into - work their way up - even to a relatively lowly paid job by American standards. The point I was trying to make was even a foreigner from a poor country has to find somewhere to stay and eat in the US - and working at McDonald's would make that tough to do AND save even a tiny amount of money.

Irony

[MattWhitworth]

It'll be those Indian guys complaining about outsourcing next ;) What goes around comes around I reckon :)

Re:Irony

[Kainaw]

It'll be those Indian guys complaining about outsourcing next

They already are. There has been past articles here on /. about Chinese and Indian workers complaining about outsourcing to Indonesia and Africa. It seems that no matter where you are, there is someone willing to do your job for less pay.

Re:Irony

[dr_dank]

That'll happen. When you have people in even more desparate economic conditions with governements all too glad to remove barriers to trade (wage laws, environmental regulations, etc), you'll see an exodus to those countries just like you did with India.

They will

[Sv-Manowar]

They will be able to stem the problem by controlling the emigration of the skilled workers for a while, or offering higher wages for them back at home. Although it may not completely solve it, as the jobs come with the benefit of seeing the rest of the world, and living in a possibly better country than the people feel they are at the moment.

This coming on the day General Motors are cutting 125k jobs and moving more of them overseas, it's all a bit worrying

Re:They will

[VoidPoint]

GM is "only" cutting 25K jobs, not 125K.

India Outsourcing?

[neoform]

So what now? India is going to start outsourcing? Like say american workers? haha

then it'd be like american companies are outsourcing to india, who are inturn outsourcing to americans!

Re:India Outsourcing?

[Anonymous Coward]

and shedding the burden of pension plans, health insurance, and labor laws somewhere during the round trip. that is, after all, the entire point of outsourcing.

Re:India Outsourcing?

[cheesy9999]

So what now? India is going to start outsourcing? Like say american workers? haha

then it'd be like american companies are outsourcing to india, who are inturn outsourcing to americans!

but everyone knows Indian workers are cheaper, so the outsourced outsourced Americans will outsource to India ... oh wait

Product outSourceToIndia(Project work) {
return outSourceToAmerica(work);
}

Product outSourceToAmerica(Project work) {
return outSourceToIndia(work);
}

void main() {
Project work = new Project();
Product complete = outSourceToIndia(work);
}

crap why isn't it working?!?!!

Re:India Outsourcing?

[cheesy9999]

(now I just have to wait for some smart ass to find something wrong with my fake code...)

Business plan.

[team99parody]

I keep thinking I should hire some random guy in India (doesn't need to know computers - just have a phone # in india) to be the "CEO" of my own personal consulting company and sell consulting services to the local businesses. When large companies buy our services, I then hire a bunch of the unemployed silicon valley .com victims for minimum wage to do the actual work.

Benefits all around

• Layed off .com programmers are cheaper than Indian workers.
• Layed off .com programmers are in the same time-zone so can service the clients better.
• Indian CEO is cheaper than US CEO.
• Indian Headquarters makes big companies more likely to sign up.

Re:Business plan.

[winkydink]

Minimum wage and Silicon Valley resident are mutually exclusive. Median home price in Santa Clara Country is north of $650k

Re:Business plan.

[lcsjk]

Now you are beginning to get the hang of this global economy stuff!

Re:Business plan.

[Anonymous Coward]

I myself and many other people I know of in Silicon Valley making well under minimum wage.

• People living off the $$$ from previous IPOs and have too much ego&pride to work a normal job so soon - but don't have enough to retire off of. I'm in this boat. Most of use are doing it in the name of running our own business. However I sure wouldn't mind an extra consulting income.
• People who failed to get jobs; but want to moonlight in tech even at minimum wage just to keep their resume up to date. A friend of mine's driving cabs in SF now; waiting for the software economy to pick up again. He'd consult for sure; since when it does, it'll look better to be a Vice Chief Officer (or whatever titles we give ourselves) of a consulting company to the fortune 100 than a cab driver..

Re:Business plan.

[Dan667]

Dude, you don't even need the Indian guy. You can set up an Asterisk Box (or hire me to) and buy a VOIP with the Indian phone number. You could even buy multiple numbers in different regions like one in Bangalore, one in Delhi, etc. Beauty of this is it cost you almost nothing, requires noone over seas, and it appears that you are a local Indian Business.

Now just practice your bad English.

Re:Business plan.

[alexhs]

Tss...

You mistakenly used the bullet list instead of the numbered list, thus ruining the usual business joke :

• ???
  
• Profit !
  

Re:Business plan.

[ArsenneLupin]

[hire locals on Indian conditions, and place them with local clients] You Sir are a genius!

And maybe you could also propose a new law that allows software to be patented?

May I call you Frits?

NON

Re:Business plan.

[faust2097]

That's funny, because all the people I know who are good at what they do here in the Bay Area are gainfully employed and making more money than we were in 2000 [and it's *cash* too]. Hell, I haven't worked at a company that didn't have 5+ open local programmer reqs since 2001.

The people who are still out of work 5 years later must be seriously lacking in any valuable skill other than "inflating executive egos", "blowing hot air" and "getting other people to do their work for them". Yeah, if you were a "producer", "integrator" or "chief creative officer" in '99 you're going to be driving a cab but there's always a demand for people who have good ideas and can deliver on them.

p.s. Please note that "writing some complicated text parsing code that kind of integrated with a database" isn't marketable in the valley anymore.

Re:Business plan.

[realprog]

The key phrase here is "silicon valley .com victims for minimum wage" - this is just not possible because of the cost of living. If we could hire people here for the same salary as in India, then the jobs wouldn't have gone there in the first place

Re:Business plan.

[clohman]

Interviewer: Why did you leave your previous job?
Me: Because I couldn't get an H1B.
Interviewer: Oh, sorry, we can't sponsor you.
Me: Good!
Interviewer: Good?
Me: I'm a citizen.

Re:Business plan.

[Anonymous Coward]

all the people I know who are good at what they do here in the Bay Area are gainfully employed and making more money than we were in 2000 [and it's *cash* too]. Hell, I haven't worked at a company that didn't have 5+ open local programmer reqs since 2001

Guess there's a different definition of good. If you're over 20 years old, all the good people I known are semi-retired and working for $0 on their own startups.

p.s. Please note that "writing some complicated text parsing code that kind of integrated with a database" isn't marketable in the valley anymore.

Actually, that's pretty much all that Google & Ebay do.

Word !

[AtariAmarok]

"Given that non-English language skills are the problem, Americans are still out of luck..."

Like, d00d, whatchu talkin bout?

Re:Word !

[lcsjk]

I'll bet half the moderators miss that joke!

English-speaking language skills in short supply

[Anonymous Coward]

English-speaking language skills could also be in short supply.

I find this hard to believe considering the proficiency in English I see evidenced in the average Indian help desk I've frequented. I'd venture to say some of them speak even more weller than some Slashdot editors.

I'm packing now.

[RobFrontier]

I'm moving to India now!! I here the housing market is unbeatable, and since I'll never be able to afford a house in FLagstaff, why not? Do I need shots or anything? Needles scare me.

Re:Question: what happened to Michael Sims?

[PMJ2kx]

He got outsourced because of his skills...or lack thereof.

Supply & Demand

[Vicissidude]

With the supply for workers holding these skills staying the same while the demand increases, that means Indian wages will shoot up. Considering that companies only save about 10-20% by going to India, you can bet offshoring to India will cool off. That's great news for US workers.

Re:Supply & Demand

[Anonymous Coward]

No it isn't. It just means that India is becoming too modern and businesses will just find a crappier country with worse wages to outsource to.

Re:Supply & Demand

[YrWrstNtmr]

The supply of such countries is limited and dwindling.

Re:Supply & Demand

[Vicissidude]

The major attraction of moving to India in the first place is that they speak English. Granted, it's hard to understand English, but it's still English.

Other countries that charge less for IT services can't make these English claims and would be that much harder for companies to offshore to. For example, programmers in Vietnam charge half of the India rate, but don't have the same English skills as India.

Re:Supply & Demand

[tekiegreg]

It's been happening to some extent already. I remember when you could find an Indian programming contractor for $15/hr (This would be a good programmer with a decent programming skillset). Nowadays it's about $20/hr which is approaching the low-end of U.S. Programmers now. Granted you can find low-end U.S. programmers now about $25/hr from my epxerience. In fact at that point is it worth the extra overhead and inconvenience of having your programmers that far away? Hmmmmm.....

Re:Supply & Demand

[RetroGeek]

The supply of such countries is limited and dwindling.

Yes, but it takes a few years to get to the point of changing countries. To exhaust the supply of countries could take decades.

By which time the first world countries will be at the current third world level of pay, due to lack of jobs.

Re:Supply & Demand

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean there is nothing to complain about now? Wait, what about that Intel thing? They can't get off the hook that easy!

Re:Supply & Demand

[Feyr]

yeah, now the new craze will be to export to canada. the lowend is around 15$/hr here. even as a sys/net/security admin that's what i make

Re:Supply & Demand

[Anonymous Coward]

The supply of such countries is limited and dwindling.

You think so?

I mean, all of those clothes at Wal-Mart must be coming from somewhere. Like this shirt I'm wearing right now, um... :checks: "Made in Madagascar".

Hmm.

Re:Supply & Demand

[Vicissidude]

Offshoring the production of basic goods is child's play compared to offshoring the production of software.

Re:Supply & Demand

[Anonymous Coward]

I would think that the Philippines would be the next big outsourcing center after India, but maybe that nation is already too expensive in comparison.

Re:Supply & Demand

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you meant to say: Offshoring the production of software is child's play compared to offshoring the production of basic goods.

Re:Supply & Demand

[mrchaotica]

And once that happens, the jobs will be outsourced back here!

Re:Supply & Demand

[Vicissidude]

No, I said it correctly. Producing t-shirts and socks in China takes no special skills. Producing software customized to a customer's exact specifications is often beyond India's capability.

Re:Supply & Demand

[dodobh]

Open a subsidary development office in India. The average salary of a good Indian programmer is about 1000 USD/mth. 1000 USD for 160 hours/month is 6.25 USD/hr. All the rest of that money is being spent in marketing and profits of the contractors.

That is what most of the big companies are doing anyway.

Also, keep in ming that you are comparing middling programmers from India with low end US programmers. Try an apples to apples comparison instead.

There is no such thing....

[Twillerror]

as a reduced price lunch.

high risk exposure

[stinky wizzleteats]

I would have to agree with India's assesment that working for an American company is a high risk exposure.

India housing market

[AtariAmarok]

"I'm moving to India now!! I here the housing market is unbeatable"

Here. It's all yours. Just send me $300. Nice neighborhood; and quiet as a tomb, it is!

Turnabout is fair play

[alvinrod]

Your Dell PC has a problem. You call Dell's 1-800 number for customer support. Because it is cheaper to pay people to do tech support overseas, your call is routed to India. Because there are not enough skilled people in India to handle your call, it is routed back to the United States where an English speaking individual fields your call.

How hard would it be to just route the call to the house of a tech support person. You could offer them a decent wage and the freedom to work from their own home. Just have them take a 3 month class on how to trouble shoot most problems. It shouldn't be so hard since almost any problem you call with involves reinstalling windows. Hell, a machine could do it for less.

I think people would be happier with customer service if it spoke the same language, even if it was the same pointless suggestion to fix your problems.

Re:Turnabout is fair play

[AtariAmarok]

"Your Dell PC has a problem"

How did you know? This is downright uncanny!

Re:Turnabout is fair play

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't be silly; most of Dell's support calls are now routed to South America, where it is cheaper to hire people than India!

Re:Turnabout is fair play

[generic-man]

I had a Compaq laptop until early last year. After the HP-Compaq merger in 2002, all the support got outsourced. When I called during the day or in the early evening I got routed to India. It gets better: when I called late at night (like 1:00 AM EST) I got routed to people in Canada. British Columbia to be specific.

Apparently HP hires help desk people specifically to work the night shift. I thought that graveyard shifts cost more.

Re:Turnabout is fair play

[peculiarmethod]

Op: "Hello, this is Dell, Inc. My name is Rashad, I will be your technical advisor for this phone call, how may I help you? *whispers* help! help, for the love of God. I am being held captive and put to work for no pay. I need your help for emancipation, and it is simple. I have an account from my father with 1.5 million which is locked away until I can come up with 1500.."

Re:Turnabout is fair play

[MAdMaxOr]

A quick search revealed:

VoIP, meanwhile, lets JetBlue run an effective call center even though all agents work from their homes.

Agents access the airlines reservation-system application and phone system via two dial-up lines to their homes. The dial-up line for the application connects workers to the LAN inside the Salt Lake City data center. PC client software is used to access the system.

To get onto the call center's phone network, agents dial into an Avaya Definity G3 PBX phone switch, running call routing software for queuing and transferring calls to the right agent. The PBX establishes a direct link to the JetBlue agent, who hooks in via software rather than a traditional call-center desk phone set. The software is an Avaya softphone client that runs on Windows PCs and connects to the main office through a modem connection. The agents use a USB headset to talk with customers.

The softphone client also is integrated with the back-end systems, letting agents access customer records or other information quickly through screen-pops.

http://www.networkworld.com/news/2003/0609jetblue. html

Language skills

[techstar25]

'India faces a massive shortage of workers with European language skills'
Judging on the speech of the person who answered the last time I called tech support they don't seem be too strict about the "European language skills" part.

There's a good reason for it

[ivoras]

The high cost of life in western countries is just awful - it makes A LOT sense to move to a country where food, water and housing is cheap.

Even the "luxury" stuff electricity and Internet access is becoming cheap in new and developing countries, simply because they don't have all that old copper to dig out first.

Re:There's a good reason for it

[randallpowell]

Thus, lets trash the economy, create more unemployed skilled workers, and live in a libertarian paradise that allows the rich to fuck evryone else but hey, we don't pay taxes so we can compete with India

Nice work, fool. Turning USA into a 3rd world nation won't solve the problem.

Re:There's a good reason for it

[N3WBI3]

The left has been dreaming of someone knocking the US off as top dog starting the day after the USSR fell apart. Liberals in the media and government have cried that the US needs a counter balance, maybe thts why Clinton took money from the chicoms and Kerry went on a 'outsourcing' visit to china on a lobbyist paid trip.

create more unemployed skilled workers

This is the kind of crap the makes me laugh and vomit at the same time. When unskilled jobs were getting exported to Mexico and China (auto, machine tools, textiles) Bill Clinton and the elites talked to us as if this was a great opportunity for American workers to retool for the information economy, unskilled workers almost deserved it in their eyes.

Now the other foot has come down and Americans are discovering that almost any job can be done somewhere else in the world, accounting, software dev, MRI/X-Ray MD's, .... Heck I was at home depot the other day and they are down to two cashiers monitoring eight fast pass lanes (self check-out) which I am sure were not produced in the US.

Hell we had a trade deficit on food how sick is that! The fact is Clintons obsession with NAFTA, GAT, and getting China into the WTO (while I might add they created a trade barrier by fixing their currnecy) put this country in a position where we cant compete in the unskill markets. Combine that with the fact youll never have enough skilled demand to run an economy on and Ross Perots 'big sucking sound' makes a good deal more sense does it not?

Free trade as sold by both aprties is a sick joke on the American worker, taxpayer, and economy. The only sound constitutional means to raise revenue is via tariffs and with the exception of Oil, chrome and a few other things the US could fend for itself (well could have when we had a manufacturing base).

If as a nation we wanted to have free trade with most of the EU, Canada, Japan, Isreal, South Korea, (all nations with environment standards, human rights standards, and a decent standard of living) heck I might even consider the Saudi's (sadly we kind of need them more than they need us), but China, India? pathetic on the environment, human rights, standard of living..

MWHAHAHAHA

[AKAImBatman]

It looks like the supply end of the curve is dropping as the demand curve goes up. Before you know it, this could result in an increasing cost of outsourced workers. Combined with the exact opposite curve in the countries doing the outsourcing (i.e. low demand == lower cost workers), a balance will soon have to be struck that will again restore tech workers to a thriving market in both America/Europe and India. No, there's not going to be another "tech boom". That's over with.

I have to say that I found the article rather amusing, as I've ran up against many of the "English speaking" Indian call centers. (I'm looking at you Citibank.)

Q: What do you get when you mix an Indian accent with the British flavor of English?
A: Something completely incomprehensible to an American.

It's amazing how many cues exist in the accents we use in our language. American English is actually quite forgiving of foreign accents, but it frustrates me to no end trying to understand the Indian on the other end. It's not that he has an Indian accent. The reps actually tend to speak English quite well. The problem is that the slight Indian accent completely throws off the British accent (which most Americans are unaccustomed to anyway) and makes it very difficult to comprehend their speach. Add the quality of a telephone connection on the mix and you've got a communications disaster far worse than the bored utterances of the previous Floridians. (Who were no shining examples of pretty speech themselves.)

Ok, I'm done complaining. I'm sure I'll soon be hearing from all manners of Indians, British, and Floridians who all feel slighted just because I had a bad customer support experience. Cheerio! :-)

Re:MWHAHAHAHA

[CaseyB]

Before you know it, this could result in an increasing cost of outsourced workers.

Don't hold your breath. There's a whole second-order wave of tech outsourcing just now staring -- this time in China. And it will be many years before all the wages there rise high enough to be prohibitive.

And then there's still Africa, after that...

Re:MWHAHAHAHA

[Otter]

It looks like the supply end of the curve is dropping as the demand curve goes up...a balance will soon have to be struck that will again restore tech workers to a thriving market in both America/Europe and India.

I don't see any issue of "MWHAHAHAHA" here -- the process you describe is how anyone with a shred of comprehension of economics understood this process was going to play out. There's plenty of work for everyone on the planet to do. Good for India, good for us!

Re:MWHAHAHAHA

[AKAImBatman]

I don't see any issue of "MWHAHAHAHA" here

It's just a personal victory laugh. People keep telling me that outsourcing will only continue to grow and will put local workers out of business all together. I take a mild amount of pleasure in proving them wrong, but I'm not stupid enough to vocalize it. Wait...

Re:MWHAHAHAHA

[metlin]

and makes it very difficult to comprehend their speach.

Definitely American English. =)

Re:MWHAHAHAHA

[AKAImBatman]

Bah, I made tons of typos in that post. It happens when Slashdot places you on a five minute deadline. :-)

Re:MWHAHAHAHA

[Anonymous Coward]

iam English and there is nothing worse than listening to an Indian pretending to be British (they even give themselves english sounding names like Steve, Jim, Chris) when its completely obvious they are Indian (with that nice international phone latency as a bonus) because the chumps in management take you AND the Indians for fncking idiots

when companies pretend anything to me when finance is involved, i logically dont do buisness with them again and inform my associates of my experience and the deception that was involved

honour and dignity are missing thesedays all i witness now is desperation, deception and fraud from people wearing suits
even the drug dealers i know are not that desperate for cash

Re:MWHAHAHAHA

[militiaMan]

It won't change until the false exchange rates are changed. I vote for a revolution against the Police State in the U.S.

Re:MWHAHAHAHA

[alphakappa]

I know that you are not flaming Indians, still let me say a few words as an explanation of 'Indian English'.

Most educated Indians speak very good english, i.e. perfect grammar. The pronunciation is a hard nut to crack, but you'd be hard pressed to show me a place in the world where English has been spoken for 200 years without a native accent being developed. The reason for the strange Indian accent is that Indian languages are strictly phonetic, so Indians tend to pronounce words exactly the way they are written, with equal emphasis on every syllable. (The closest I've seen is the Scottish accent)

People tend to equate accented English with bad English. Also note that there are plenty of phrases that are typically Indian (and are considered perfectly normal there), which may be hard to understand. Similarly many of the American phrases are not easily understood in other parts of the English speaking world.

In short, it's not really bad english, it's just a different accent and a slightly different form of English.

Re:MWHAHAHAHA

[AKAImBatman]

Most educated Indians speak very good english,

I actually pointed that out in my original post. The problem is not their grasp of English, just that Americans are unable to understand them. My guess is that British have a much easier time, but that doesn't help Americans any. :-)

Re:MWHAHAHAHA

[ehiris]

Indians are not taking American jobs. They are doing jobs Americans won't do without driving account maintainance fees up. If you have a problem with their accent learn Hindi.

Re:MWHAHAHAHA

[Frogbert]

American English is actually quite forgiving of foreign accents

Given that I've seen American TV programs that have Australian and New Zealand accents subtitled I'd have to disagree with that comment.

Re:MWHAHAHAHA

[Cederic]

>> Most educated Indians speak very good english, i.e. perfect grammar.

In that case our outsourcers must have been very selective in their hiring process.

Verbal communication contains considerable mis-use of the English language. Written communications are every bit as bad.

"Object call database for the storing of the data" might be interpretable, but it's unfortunately a better example than many we're having to deal with.

Which isn't to say the level of English is unworkable. There are other far more serious issues we're encountering.

~Cederic

Re:MWHAHAHAHA

[alphakappa]

well, it could be that the call center you have outsourced to is one of the bad ones. Getting a job is easy in India now, and the cheap call centers will get only employees who are not good enough to make it to the good call centers. There's plenty of bad english too in India.. so you get what you pay for :-)

Re:MWHAHAHAHA

[Cederic]

Call centre? This is IT outsourcing. The call centre is with a different Indian company, and their spoken English is a little better.

The IT company to which we outsource is a well-known one, with a lot of American and European business. And in terms of cost, it's costing us more to employ them than it did to do the work in-house.

I do indeed find that bitterly ironic.

Re:MWHAHAHAHA

[alphakappa]

I'm sure you know this already, but I know that many companies while having international clients, do not hire the best developers. I don't know which company you have outsourced to, but if it is someone like Wipro of Infosys, you'd have fewer headaches, since they have very impressive quality controls.

Re:MWHAHAHAHA

[Cederic]

We've outsourced to three different companies, two of which are Indian and the third of which is using their Indian division to handle our account (with our agreement).

I wont name the individual companies involved, but two of them will be familiar to anybody that's looked at outsourcing to India, and the third isn't entirely unknown.

So it is very mixed.

Re:MWHAHAHAHA

[LQ]

'Indian English' [is] not really bad english, it's just a different accent and a slightly different form of English.
A bit like the difference between Dutch & German?
I am a european with english as my mother tongue. I have had one Indian colleague listen to me and then translate into 'Indian English' for another colleague!

Re:MWHAHAHAHA

[alphakappa]

haha, I can understand what happened. Your Indian colleague did not translate - he just repeated everything with an accent that's easy for the other colleague to understand (of course, he would have used his own words, but the main idea would've been to translate the accent, not the words).

Indians can find a foreign(say British) accent hard to understand too. My mom speaks perfect english, but she finds Hollywood movies hard to understand because of the American accent.

Re:MWHAHAHAHA

[David Off]

> I'm looking at you Citibank... What do you get when you mix an Indian accent with the British flavor of English?

I'm British and I cannot understand the people at Citibank either. It sounds like they may be speaking English but they have such strong Indian accents it is difficult to tell. They should hire some of the Indian's at my local restaurant - they can speak English properly.

I closed my Citibank account because of I had no confidence in their call-center.

Re:MWHAHAHAHA

[zoney_ie]

I've seen the same for Irish and British accents. In fact, I think I've seen such subtitling on a US show featuring some Americans with more colourful accents.

It's quite amusing.

However, there's nothing as disturbing as a US show where the main presenter, and only the main presenter, has been dubbed with a local (Irish) voiceover. It's quite patronising, yet seems to be on the increase. I can understand in advertising at least how a US accent doesn't really sell things so well in Europe anymore. But a TV show being dubbed for localisation?!

Not as good for USA/Europe as you think...

[digitalamish]

This just means that India will outsource to even cheaper labor markets. They are already sending work to China. I don't think we'll see jobs 'onshoring' very soon.

Solution for Tokyo

[Anonymous Coward]

The Tokyo Geek Ghetto citizens can transfer to India so they can have a better place to call their own. Screw the European Language Skills.... They are well learners.

pretty nervy sales pitch for India

[yagu]

From the article:

warned that only a small percentage of the two million English-speaking graduates per year turned out by Indian universities actually have good enough English to work in customer-facing offshore operations.

I don't know what to make of India's "taking" of the market the way they have. And, I don't know who to blame. But, I do know:

• India definitely has not solved or stepped up to solving the "English" problem. Of the last ten support calls I've made to any company (not just computers), I'd guess I was talking to someone in India nine of those calls, and of those nine times, not one time was I able to carry on any kind of reasonable communication with my "support"! (And, working in technology, I've actually been complimented on my better-than-average ability to understand people with heavy accents! Sadly, this doesn't always translate nicely to phone conversations.)
• Companies outsourcing support have glossed over any consideration of customer support and/or satisfaction in favor of perceived "large" savings. I see this as incredibly short-sighted, but maybe not "fightable", as it appears everyone is going this route.

I guess I blame India for short-sheeting the buying public claiming to provide "equal" services for far less cost... It's disingenuous at best, downright unethical otherwise. I'm guessing they'll have similar level of service for non-English European countries.... Heaven help those consumers when they start making calls for help.

I guess I blame corporations for "bottom-line" decision making over customer satisfaction.

Sidebar: Does anyone wonder why, if India can provide "equal" service... for far less money (i.e., "phone" support) why "phone" services like 911 haven't been sent overseas? I don't.

Sidebar 2: Suggestion: if you do need support for something, I can't suggest strongly enough... keep calling, and hanging up until you get someone who you can easily understand (NOTE: that could end up being someone in India, but empirical data suggest otherwise)... Maybe if we all did that, the skew would be back to English speaking support.

Pakistan is Next Hotspot

[FathomIT]

Pakistan is filling the gap and rapidly becoming the next hotspot for labor outsourcing.

Globalism is great. Eventually Africa will be used as it really is the last spot of untapped labor (although a tad risky at the moment).

Re:Pakistan is Next Hotspot

[AKAImBatman]

Pakistan is filling the gap and rapidly becoming the next hotspot for labor outsourcing.

Population of India: 1,080,264,388
Population of Pakistan: 150,694,740

I'm thinking that Pakistan won't hold out for long.

Eventually Africa will be used as it really is the last spot of untapped labor (although a tad risky at the moment).

Hello Dear Friend, my name is Bozo Mumbo, and I am the rightful king of Nigeria. My brother recently kicked me out of the palace so now I have turned to offering outsourced tech workers at a low price...

Re:Pakistan is Next Hotspot

[Locke2005]

Africa needs to fix it's education system before it becomes a destination for outsourcing... many countries there simply don't have public schools. (My wife is from Sierra Leone) Ask the average Indian tech worker, and they'll tell you there job will probably be outsourced to China in a few years. Asia has a couple billion people and a high unemployment rate, I suspect they can absorb all the outsourcing for many years to come!

Re:Pakistan is Next Hotspot

[vertinox]

Eventually Africa will be used as it really is the last spot of untapped labor (although a tad risky at the moment).

Tech support: "Hello sir, thank you for be calling Tech support!"

User: "Yes. My computer isn't booting."

Tech Support: "I will help you sir, but the local militia had be takin my computer this morning and they need you to send 3,000 nagandis... That is $5 in your monies, sir, before I can buy it back. I will need two more days of labor before I can achieve this. Anything else I can help you with sirs?"

User: "Ermm... I don't know..."

Tech support: "Well sirs, why don't I be tellin you the story about my uncle... You see he just recently died and he being a Nigerian prince and all..."

Re:Pakistan is Next Hotspot

[HornWumpus]

Asia has a couple billion people and a high unemployment rate, I suspect they can absorb all the outsourcing for many years to come!

How many are educated?

India, China and Russia are the three biggest pools of relatively untapped educated talent. They are all moving up in utiliization. To say nothing of their native demand picking up.

A second or third world nation with educated people is the exception not the rule.

Re:Pakistan is Next Hotspot

[Locke2005]

India, China, and Russia are all part of Asia, are they not?

Remember

[Lally Singh]

The current exchange rate is 43.5 to 1. They won't be outsourcing back anytime soon.

Re:Remember

[houghi]

That has nothing to do with the exchange rate. 1USD will just do a lot more in some countries then in other. Or do you think that if all exchangerates were 1 to 1 we would all be equal moneywise?

Before the EURO a Belgian Franc was about 20 to the German Mark. That did not mean that the Germans were better off or worse off.

It is as if you would be saying that building build in Inches are larger then those build in centimeters (or smaller if you look at the meter)

Re:Remember

[Anonymous Coward]

That doesn't mean anything by itself! The current exchange rate is 106.59 yen to 1 US dollar. By your logic that means Indian companies would be more likely to hire US workers than Japanese ones!

The correct metric is average wage, and the units should be the same when doing the comparison.

Re:Remember

[Lally Singh]

Costs of living, etc., in India have a similar scale factor to the exchange rate. Despite the textbook definition, the exchange rate indicates a lot more than costs of currency conversion.

Re:Remember

[ehiris]

Exchange rates don't really matter. What counts is the value of the money. (i.e. you'd pay someone in US 20$/hour and 870 Ruppees/hour in India for the same work) Do you know what the going rate for Java development is in India?

Madras in da Moonlight

[AtariAmarok]

"Ya, if dey need somebuddy withan upper Grea' Lakes accent, I'm der man, eh?"

Hey! A real live Yooper! (if you have no idea, just talk like Bob and Doug MacKenzie. It is close enough).

Re:English-speaking language skills in short suppl

[Billy the Mountain]

I'd venture to say some of them speak even more weller than some Slashdot editors.

I agree, except for more authenticity, I would have written it: "...some of them speak even more weller then some Slashdot editors.

BTM

Call of India lures European workers

[anandpur]

Call of India lures European workers

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/403806 9.stm

Re:Call of India lures European workers

[JimmehAH]

This is what I'm doing right now.
Well. Should be doing obviously.
It's hard work but the company is good and contrary to popular opinion everyone here is pretty much fluent in English. Of course there's the occasional hiccup caused by an over-excited agent or meme that refuses to die ('we will do the needful for you' comes to mind) but it doesn't seem to present much of a barrier to communication. Everyone has extensive V&A training and our calls are regularly monitored by the quality department. Client requirements are very high.

Dilbert

[iammrjvo]

It reminds me of that Dilbert where his company outsourced their work to India, who outsourced it to Romania, who outsourced it to Mexico, who outsourced it back to the original company.

Re:Dilbert

[fishbowl]

>It reminds me of that Dilbert

If it happened in a Dilbert strip, something very close to it probably really happened at someplace like MCI or Exxon.

Re:Dilbert

[fishbowl]

I've noticed a disturbing trend in the last week or so, of slashdot replies apparently being attached to the wrong threads.

Anyone else notice that?

Re:Dilbert

[spun]

Trolls change tactics all the time. They just want to mess with your and the editors' heads. Notice how it's always an AC? My guess it's someone pissed about how the introduction of captchas has messed up their crapflood war against the trolls of trolltalk, but I could be way off base.

Re:Dilbert

[fishbowl]

>Trolls change tactics all the time.

Of course, but I'm sure I've seen reasonable, non-AC posts, threaded to the wrong subjects. Wish I had time to dig up some examples.

It happened before

[AtariAmarok]

"Call of India lures European workers"

I has happened before (India luring Europeans). Just promise tiger hunts and untold riches to be made off of shipping tea 'round the Cape.

Plan B

[Doc Ruby]

The foreign workers will cost less working in India by serving the rest of their life with cheap Indian labor. This is how the entire economy of a country like England or the US gets "outsourced" to India. Because soon enough, the foreign workers will drain the local nontech labor pool of its best workers to serve them, and more people will need to be imported. It's almost as damaging to the local, less skilled, labor pool as it is to the foreign economies cherry picked for its workers. While the transplants ramp up India's economy, many of its globally competitive advantages, like unfettered environmental destruction and labor commoditization, will eventually catch these migrant workers short.

Maybe it's time we just fill a "B Ark" with service personnel, and turn this brain drain to our advantage.

Dear India

[jzuska]

Screw you, and take your complaints with ya. Serves you right.

Re:Dear India

[Anonymous Coward]

True dat. biatches!

Instigation of phase II a success

[Anonymous Coward]

So now that the free trade advocates have made a solid foothold in countries wherelivng conditions are the poorest possibel without being completely sub human, they will take the steps to make first world countries competitive with these markets.

I see arguments rising that the US and europe will need to lower their expectations and excesses within the working class so to compete with these "more efficient and enthusiastic workers overseas".

Phase three will entail the outsourcing from india to 3rd world countries that even now are being introduced to the technology age with highly inexpensive computers to prepare for a shift of the IT industry to sub-service industry wages.

But seriously - where can you get considered ?

[rjordan]

where are these recruitments ads for Indian jobs - I for one would love to work somewhere new... but I don't see the ads...

Re:But seriously - where can you get considered ?

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.bixee.com/ is a search engine for Indian jobs that searches from all the top Indian sites - Naukri, Jobshead and Timesjobs. Beware that a lot of the recruitment for Indian jobs happens through "placement consultants"/"headhunters". You have to be a little demanding with them to make contact with the actual employing company quickly.

Worker's Paradise

[Doc Ruby]

Isn't it sad that a "third world" country of a billion people has a government with a labor policy that can create a surplus demand for tech workers in the hundreds of thousands, while America's got hundreds of thousands of un- and under-employed tech workers, without a competitive labor policy?

Re:Worker's Paradise

[OzPhIsH]

You're killing me.

You think it is a good thing that in a country with a billion people, there is a labor shortage of hundreds of thousands in the tech field? This country has a BILLION people. BILLION. This isn't evidence of Indian government doing things right, its evidence of them doings going WRONG. What is wrong with these billion people that not even a fraction of a percent of them are skilled enough to fill these jobs?

The problem inherently lies in education. These billions of Indians don't (yet) have the education to fully compete in the tech field. The labor force is not up to par when it comes to actually knowing how to do the job. Oh, sure the COST of labor is what makes them competitive compared to American workers, but in terms of actually having the necessary skills to compete, its still no contest.

In reality, the fact that there isn't such a huge gap between supply/demand for tech workers in the US, especially porportional to the number of people living in the country, is a good thing. Wait, hear me out. Sure it isn't necessarily appealing at first for you, the worker as an individual. Wages are lower when your skills aren't in demand, everyone knows this. You have to look past that though. The fact that we actually have the labor supply to meet our still rather high demand for tech workers says everything about the education of people living in the US. Imagine if the US had such a labor shortage in the tech field. It would be disasterous! It would be a prime indicator that Americans were simply too dumb to fill the positions. An educated population is a good thing at home, and it is a good thing abroad. As the world becomes more educated, we all benefit.

Praising misguided government "labor policies" for a situation that is really the result of horrible education and living conditions, which have been fostered by their ass-backwards goverment for generations, is just something I won't do. If you think that Indian government policy is really so much better than what takes place in America, then feel free to move over there, as already many posts have suggested doing. I for one would rather be homeless on the streets in the US then work in India. Worker's Paradise it ain't.

Re:Worker's Paradise

[Doc Ruby]

I don't think the policy is a good thing for the 1B Indians. I think that they have a policy at all, that they execute, shows they're better managers than is our American government. Their service to their constituents is another matter.

I was actually with you on practically all the rest of your comment, except your "if you like India so much, move there" comment. Of course, that comment in any context is absurd. It is precisely American to want to change America to work better. Maybe if you, and others with the "love it or leave it" attitude, knew more about the tribal nations (like the Iriquois and Huron, specifically) from which American colonists (Washington and Franklin, especially) adopted federal government structures, you'd be more open to fixing America's problems with solutions proven in foreign countries. In any case, "not invented here" is a poisonous defense.

Re:Worker's Paradise

[subodhg]

Your Ignorance is EVIDENT by the simple fact that you all INDIA ( OR CHINA ) a "Third World" country. Grow UP.

Re:Worker's Paradise

[Doc Ruby]

You are ignorant of the definition of "third world". If you're embarassed by India's economic status, help them grow out of it - don't whine about the facts until they've changed. You're a big baby, with your mewling to "grow up". Follow your own advice first.

Re:Worker's Paradise

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you say that there isn't a huge gap between supply and demand for tech workers in the US? Oh sure, you are absolutely right, oh wait you could be wrong, because we in the US (this is in the US, not counting the outsourced work) employ atleast 80,000 tech workers from other countries.

Again, if you are in doubt please read this: http://www.lostcoders.net/index-single-1669.htm

Re:Worker's Paradise

[subodhg]

I am not ashamed of the India's Economic Status. Most of these definitions are too old to hold true for India. I agree, we still have a people living under the poverty line, but we are growing up. You wouldn't be whining about India if it were a third world country in the first place.

Re:Worker's Paradise

[OzPhIsH]

I didn't mean to come off as someone of the opinion "If you don't like the way its done in Americs, move." I'm all for changing America for the better as well, not simply abandoning it when things might look greener on the other side. I was more or less trying to address the number of posts I had also read declaring "Well, it's time to move to India."

This seems like the same attitude that a lot of democrats displayed when Bush was re-elected. I don't know how many times I heard or read "Well, time to move to Canada." Statements like that don't really do anything to address the problems at hand, and if acted upon, simply leave less voice for discourse, which is critical and necessary for our system to work and evolve. I want people to stay in this country, not simply jump ship when things don't quite go their way. However, I'm not going to prevent anyone who thinks "It's time to move to India" from doing so. I hate to use insults, but, at least in my opinion, anyone who thinks that right now India is a better place to be then the US is a pretty big farking moron. I'll say "good riddence, hope you enjoy your new life" and that will be that.

Having said that, I do have a few comments about your post.

"I think that they have a policy at all, that they execute, shows they're better managers than is our American government."

This statement just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Just because you have a policy doesn't make it automatically a good thing. In fact, more often then not, it seems that endless beurocratic government policies end up hurting constituents. I'd rather have nothing than a detremental something.

"Maybe if you, and others with the "love it or leave it" attitude, knew more about the tribal nations (like the Iriquois and Huron, specifically) from which American colonists (Washington and Franklin, especially) adopted federal government structures, you'd be more open to fixing America's problems with solutions proven in foreign countries.

Ok you lost me here. First off, you assume that I'm not open to fixing America's problems with solutions proven in foreign countries. I'm all for fixing America's problems (and America has its problems, no doubt) with the BEST possible solution. Why would I care where the solution came from if it was "proven" to be best around?

However, that brings us to an entirly different question of defining America's problems. Is social security a problem? Yes, no? If so, how do we fix it? Maybe someone's definiton of a "proven solution" is the same as my definition "large disaster." I'm a diehard free-market capitalist Libertarian. I would favor abolishing what I consider a blatent wealth redistribution program all together. Obviously what I consider a great solution makes others cringe. Some people suggest raising taxes. That makes me cringe. Anyway, my point isn't to debate social security. I simply want to illustrate that some of us look at other countries models and see a "proven solution" and some us look at the same thing and cry. We all want a better America, and if another country is really doing something that we ought to look at we should. Sometimes though it is hard to consider other countries models seriously when the average standard of living of someone in those countries is that of a person considered living in poverty in this country. Something just doesn't add up. But hey, like I said I'm open for any and all suggestions. That kind of discourse and debate is what this country is all about.

Re:Worker's Paradise

[Doc Ruby]

They are still true. Why else would you be so defensive about the truth, if you weren't ashamed for some reason?

My complaints about India are that my own country is not performing as well as it, though America is supposedly the world economic leader.

Really, you haven't made one bit of sense in this entire exchange. Get your act together before you start lashing out with your nationalism at inappropriate targets.

Re:Worker's Paradise

[OzPhIsH]

I assume your referring to this line "In reality, the fact that there isn't such a huge gap between supply/demand for tech workers in the US, especially porportional to the number of people living in the country..." This is being comparative to the situation in India. Filling 80k jobs from a pool of 300 million should be a lot more difficult than filling 100k jobs from a pool of 1 Billion. There are 3 times as many people in India and they they still can't meet demand. So in the US, there isn't such a huge gap as the one in India. Additionally, from your own source: "Congress capped the number of non-immigrant visas for skilled professionals at 65,000 in 2004 and 2005 in an effort to increase border security and ensure more jobs for home-grown tech workers. That is a third of the 195,000 work visas issued annually during the high-tech boom years from 2001 to 2003." Hmm, congress has set the cap at 65,000 for 2005. What year is it? 2005. Where do you get "at least 80,000" its nowhere to be found in the article. Additionally, there were MORE work visa's issued during the boom years. Tech jobs weren't down by an entire third, even after the bubble popped, but imported workers were cut by a third. So now the percent of tech workers who are foriegn is even less then when people didn't even consider it a problem, or even consider it period. If I were you, I would consider working on your own skills to stay competitive instead of bitching about foriegners who evidently are doing a better job.

Re:Worker's Paradise

[Doc Ruby]

You specifically said

"If you think that Indian government policy is really so much better than what takes place in America, then feel free to move over there, as already many posts have suggested doing."

Even though I didn't say that their policy was better than ours. But they clearly have articulated a labor policy that they are executing, which is better than our government, which has none (except maybe protecting the buyers' market in labor), though we need them to execute one.

Here's a test of your "diehard free-market capitalist libertarianism": what do you think about unchecked international traffic in nuclear weapons? Or cocaine, heroin, machine guns, anthrax, and anything else money can buy? How long would that free market last, not to mention liberty? Aren't you really a "I want to do anything I want, whenever, regardless of the consequences"? You saw someone complaining about American policy, and said "love it or leave it". Now you say different, because I caught you doing that, but you haven't really retracted that, or really even acknowledged it. You immediately switch over to a condemnation of Democrats. Even ignoring the context, a stolen election, in which people could be expected to lower their expectations of changing the country to improve it, you're really just changing the subject.

If you want to have a meaningful debate about issues like these, you'll have to be more fair. More consistent, less hiding behind labels, less blaming others for your mistakes. Then you'll be able to talk more convincingly about principles, especially those like "libertarianism".

Re:Worker's Paradise

[OzPhIsH]

God, where do I begin. Lets look at your original post

Isn't it sad that a "third world" country of a billion people has a government with a labor policy that can create a surplus demand for tech workers in the hundreds of thousands, while America's got hundreds of thousands of un- and under-employed tech workers, without a competitive labor policy?

Your opening three words are "Isn't it sad." This clearly indicates dissatisfaction for the current system. Saying "Isn't it sad that they have X and we don't" in this context would indicate to anyone reading the sentence that you desire X, in this case a "labor policy" whatever that might entail.

Even though I didn't say that their policy was better than ours.

No you didn't say that. However, if you believed that our policy was better than the one in India, you wouldn't have said that the situation was "sad."

"But they clearly have articulated a labor policy that they are executing, which is better than our government, which has none (except maybe protecting the buyers' market in labor), though we need them to execute one."

I already challenged you on this in my last post when I posed the question "Why is simply having a policy, better than not having one?" What makes you think that their policy isn't even more detramental to Indian society? Furthermore, could you enlighten us as to just what India's labor policy is? I can't tell you a damn thing about it, and never claimed I could. However, you seem to have all the facts as to why it is oh so much better then what we have. I never claimed to know what India's labor policy precisely consisted of, just that a lack of quality education should be considered a prime reason for the lack of Indians filling tech jobs in their own country.

"Here's a test of your "diehard free-market capitalist libertarianism": what do you think about unchecked international traffic in nuclear weapons?"

Unchecked international traffic is a fallacy. Free markets in conjunction with free societies produce natural checks on commerce. That what it is all about. Besides, nukes are being traded internationally "unchecked" right now this very minute anyway.

"Or cocaine, heroin, machine guns, anthrax, and anything else money can buy?"

Yes, yes, yes, yes, and most certainly yes.

"How long would that free market last,

Markets are already not free in my opinion. We have government granted monopolies, government bailouts, government subsidies, import tarrifs, congressmen passing laws to protect old dinosaur businesses, etc. I doubt there has ever been a truly free market with out government meddeling.

not to mention liberty?"

What? Liberty has already been and continues to be robbed from us everyday. Patriot Act, DMCA, wiretaps, carnivore, airport screeners, commerce clauses, etc. The goverment has shown that it is more than willing to curb the freedoms of the people living in this country. It has since day one. Every new law passed is basically new things that you aren't allowed to do anymore with out being punished. Thats not what I call freedom.

Aren't you really a "I want to do anything I want, whenever, regardless of the consequences"?

There is no such thing as "regardless of consequences." Everything has consequences. I am a "I want to do anything I want, whenever, and will deal with consequences." Isn't that what freedom is? Making your own choices, and dealing with the consequences of those choices?

You saw someone complaining about American policy, and said "love it or leave it".

I tried to clarify this in my last post but you don't seem to want to believe me. Why I would lie about my position on slashdot, an internet message forum, is beyond me. I really didn't mean "love it or leave it." It was more of a "leave for India if you want, but you'll be sorry if you do." Obviously I'm not too thrilled about the way o

Re:Worker's Paradise

[Travoltus]

>

No, we don't benefit.

We have a large number of highly educated Americans who have no work.

An excess of workers is never good for the individual; what corporations are doing to us is creating a market of 6 billion workers for a few million good paying jobs worldwide.

This can never be good; it will ultimately end in sweatshop jobs for all as workers are forced to bargain down in order to compete with low paid workers abroad.

Re:Worker's Paradise

[nonicenamesleft]

This isn't evidence of Indian government doing things right, its evidence of them doings going WRONG. What is wrong with these billion people that not even a fraction of a percent of them are skilled enough to fill these jobs?

RTFA. This is not about tech jobs per se. It is about Indians not being fluent enough in Hungarian to tap a new client in Budapest. So the Indian company wants to open an office in eastern Europe and hire some locals with a working knowledge of English to expand.

There are some problems with Indian education system (like with education system in any country). But you can not infer that from this article.

Oh, sure the COST of labor is what makes them competitive compared to American workers, but in terms of actually having the necessary skills to compete, its still no contest.

Time to take off your anti-outsourcing glasses. Things are changing. Unless you accept and adapt, you will be left whining.

Re:Worker's Paradise

[Doc Ruby]

Your comments are based on a variety of things you seem to like, but my posts are not among the real bases.

Look at your last shot: somehow, I am opposed to "liberty". That's ridiculous; nowhere in my posts can you find any such idea, because it isn't true. You can't try that "you hate America" crap on me. You're the one who kicked this off with "love it or leave it", the attitude that hates America, and despises freedom.

I'll dismiss your other fantasies for which you've recruited my post as a standin for whatever you're actually responding to, or cover for positions you're afraid to admit you took just one post prior. I'll quote (again) one of your statements that you continue to twist away from: "[...] you think that Indian government policy is really so much better than what takes place in America [...]". When I actually posted, as you quoted above, that I think it's sad that India , a gigantic poor country (big management problem) can execute a labor policy that generates demand, while America (a much more manageable place) lacks a policy, which generates layoffs. It's not that complicated. Except when you see just how wrong is your opposing position, then twist it (and mine) into complex knots to argue with it. Imagine any version you want - all I think is sad is that our advantaged government fails, while India's disadvantaged one succeeds.

Then there's your fantasy about "free markets and free societies" producing "natural checks on commerce". What, the winds will blow against these shipments? The existing commerce that you admit proves that these items will be traded without constraints on markets. I asked whether you would support these obviously unacceptable trades, which would of course be available in your "diehard" free market, and all you've got is some kind of theoretical talk about perfectly free markets not existing, so we don't know. The fact you're dodging is that your ideologically preferred free markets would be full of those terrible products. Which terrible powermongers would get, and use to take more power. Whereupon they would destroy that market freedom, grabbing control to perpetuate their own power. That self-undermining dynamic of too-free markets is one reason they don't exist. And the whole scenario is full of reasons we can not allow them to.

Of course, you swerve away from the point to start rambling about how there is no liberty now. Where did that come from? It looks like it's just a hobby horse you ride, all the way to your baseless accusations that I somehow am against "freedom", just because I know that complete freedom is an impossible idea. You ignore that reality, because your whole philosophy ignores the consequences of too much freedom to threaten other people. Any adult knows that childish attitude is just a way to argue for more freedom for oneself, regardless of the consequences.

'I really didn't mean "love it or leave it."'

That's what you're trying to "clarify", but you posted

"If you think that Indian government policy is really so much better than what takes place in America, then feel free to move over there"

That's not clarification, that's backpedalling, downplaying, trying to get away with having said something wrong, by spinning it into the opposite. Look, you can have your friendly conversations with the "libertarians" with whom you'll always agree, because your codependency requires each other to say you're strong enough to survive in a new world where every takes every liberty possible. But when you talk with someone like me, who doesn't buy that nonsense, be prepared to eat those words when you naively state them. BTW - your own desire to stay in a place you want to change is perfectly consistent with telling people with whom you don't agree to leave. It's just dishonest to pretend that you're consistent.

' Could you please point of where I specifically "condemn" Democrats? It doesn't exist anywhere in my post.'

OK, in your previous post you wrote

Re:Worker's Paradise

[g0_p]

The blurb clearly says "India faces a massive shortage of workers with European language skills over the next five years which could see the country needing to recruit up to 120,000 foreigners". Its not because they lack technical skills, but because they lack foreign language skills.

If you had cared to read up a bit more you would have realized that this shortage arises because of the flurry of offshoring contracts from Non-English speaking european countries expected in the next 5 years. And not due to the shortage competetive skills that American workers seem to magically possess and Indian workers dont.

Re:Worker's Paradise

[Anonymous Coward]

u have to be kidding me man! i have studied uptill 11th in india and then finished my studies in the US. there may not be a lot of people who have the tech skills but those who do have really amazing skills. the syllabus followed in indian schools is way way above american standards.

Okay, let me do the math

[syntap]

If I was making $50/hour and my job was outsourced at $25, then the outsourcing company can rehire me at $20 to remain profitable? That's only a 60% paycut for having your old job back... why the fuss?

Re:Okay, let me do the math

[Anonymous Coward]

well wasn't that the plan?

Do you really think the 2% was going to let you move up your little ladder?

buhbye tech boy. You are now a service industry worker.

Would you like fries with that query?

Sounds great!

[Anonymous Coward]

Now if I chase down that foreign language proficiency, add it to my programming proficiency, and go live and work in a third world country (yeah, I said third, deal with it), I'll really be living the American dream. Yay!

I'm not going to even bother reading the

[MisanthropicProgram]

article!

ZDNet India is reporting that 'India faces a massive shortage of workers with European language skills over the next five years which could see the country needing to recruit up to 120,000 foreigners...

Everytime a "journalist" says that there's shortage, I immediately become suspicious. These people said that there was a "shortage" of programmers and it would last until, what, 2010? And yet there's still a bunch of us who had to get jobs at Home Depot. These folks are saying that there's a "shortage" of nurses. But a few years ago, nurses where being laid-off because of managed care. WTF!
What I'm saying is, these folks are just spewing the shit they're getting from PR firms and reporting it as news.

Here's something that I really love. A friend of mine was approached by a guy to start a "school" for nurses. He wanted to recruit people from Africa (I don't why Africa - I guess a lot of foreign nurses are from Africa especially Nigeria)and then train them as nurses to help with the nursing "shortage". My friend, bless her, said "When working conditions and pay are IMPROVED FOR NURSES, I MAY help you, until then I do not believe there's a "shortage".

I'm hearing more and more people (even from IT) training to become nurses because of the increased salaries.

I think this article is just a PR ploy to screw their own (Indians) people!

Re:I'm not going to even bother reading the

[RealAlaskan]

My friend, bless her, said "When working conditions and pay are IMPROVED FOR NURSES, I MAY help you, until then I do not believe there's a "shortage".

I learned a couple of years ago that Alaska has about twice as many licensed, ready-to-work nurses as there are nursing jobs in the state. There is either a glut of nurses, or a shortage of jobs nurses are willing to take. There is definitely no shortage of nurses.

When someone is telling your kid that nursing is the hot field, remember that: the wages and the working conditions stink, and the woods are full of experienced nurses who are biding their time, waiting for nursing jobs that don't stink. That means that nursing jobs that don't stink will be few and far between for a very long time to come.

Re:I'm not going to even bother reading the

[AtariAmarok]

"When working conditions and pay are IMPROVED FOR NURSES, I MAY help you, until then I do not believe there's a "shortage"."

So you increase the pay, and as a result you have fewer nurses (because the amount of money for nursing remains the same). Then you do end up with a shortage. If there a good nurses who happen to be Africa, why not hire them, especially since you will be able to do so without cutting staffing or cutting care in other ways?

Re:I'm not going to even bother reading the

[cahiha]

These people said that there was a "shortage" of programmers and it would last until, what, 2010? And yet there's still a bunch of us who had to get jobs at Home Depot.

There are lots of different kinds of programmers; perhaps your qualifications don't meet what's in demand.

I'm hearing more and more people (even from IT) training to become nurses because of the increased salaries.

That's scary: medical care like IT help desks...

Re:I'm not going to even bother reading the

[softcoder]

RIght on.

We have been hearing about a labor shortage in just about every field for over 30 years, (tradesmen, engineers, programmers etc. etc.). Yet working conditions never improve and money never goes up.
Violates basic economics.
PR and hidden motives are behind so many 'news items' these days it pays to take nothing at face value.

Any standards?

[AtariAmarok]

"I seriously doubt ANYONE made it rich by any standards working in McDonald's"

The average American McDonald's worker is rich by the standards of many, if not most, foreign countries.

Re:Any standards?

[Dysan2k]

Sure they are, IN those countries. If I make $300 USD/mo. in Mexico, I'm living pretty well vs. $300 USD/mo. in the US is .. well .. You'd live in a motel at best, eat Ramen every single night, drink nothing but water and Kool-Aid.

Figure $180-220 per week avg. at a minimum wage job. Personally, I'd like to see people flat out refuse any job that doesn't pay cost-of-living, but I don't want to live on the streets either.

Thank god I have the will to get up in the morning and actually go do my job, and do it well. Keeps me in home and food.

Re:Any standards?

[mrchaotica]

Or you'd live in a three-bedroom house and split the rent 20 ways. That's what they do around here, at least...

Re:Any standards?

[Dysan2k]

YIKES! I could not do that, evar!

I don't think so...

[Vicissidude]

... China and Africa speak worse English than even the Indians.

Re:I don't think so...

[Tim C]

That may be true in general, but one Chinese woman I know speaks perfect English with only a very slight accent.

Also, don't kid yourself that this drive has anything to do with the customers, it is 100% about reducing costs. Until and unless there is a consumer backlash, in which case native call centres may become a selling point, companies will move call centres wherever they're cheapest.

Re:I don't think so...

[Vicissidude]

If it is 100% about reducing costs, then which makes more sense:

1. Moving a call center to a country with English speakers that are less comprehensible than Indians.
2. Eliminating the call center entirely.

If reducing costs were the entire goal (as you say, "100% about reducing costs"), then companies would always pick #2. However, call centers are still here. Obviously then, reducing costs is NOT the ONLY factor. These call centers must also provide some service to customers.

There is a bare minimum service threshold. One of those bare minimums is that the customer service reps speak English that can be understood by most customers. Given that most customers have problems speaking with Indians, a group that supposedly speaks English natively, I doubt that other countries can match India on this service.

The question I have is...

[suman28]

Is the shortage in the call center market or the programming market? I don't mind doing any job if I am unemployed, but I would want to move into a position that utilizes my talent as well as compensate my well for that talent.

In trouble already...

[Anonymous Coward]

India created a situation where their growth has outrun their purpose. The purpose of outsourcing jobs to India was that they could do it at the cheapest rates anywhere.

People I've spoken to are saying the big corporations are now moving away from India because of high turnover as India-based employees leap jobs frequently to make higher income. Rates are also going up in India as the work force because more highly skilled and specialized. So large companies are looking at China, which hasn't worked out so good and in fact many India contracting companies are subcontracting to China.

Basically, India's prices are going up and they aren't the lowest cost center anymore. This means trouble for Indians since their boom depends on them being the cheapest. They created a market that depended on cost and the people are now beginning to expect more. Looks like they'll soon be like the US, trying to keep jobs in their country.

Inconsistancy

[MisanthropicProgram]

Ok. You guys are sharp and you're going to think this is an inconsistancy:
My friend, bless her, said "When working conditions and pay are IMPROVED FOR NURSES, I MAY help you, until then I do not believe there's a "shortage". AND I'm hearing more and more people (even from IT) training to become nurses because of the increased salaries.

It's really not. Salaries for nurses have hit a point where fellow Americans want to move to that profession. Thus, eventually decreasing salaries.

Economist geeks, please explain more eloquently - English geeks please make sense of this post :-)

Floridian

[Anonymous Coward]

Being a non-native Floridian (originally from New Jersey (which has its own problems)), I understand your complaint, and am not offended. I worked internal phone tech support down here, and some of the voices... The less said about (and by) the voices, the better.

Re:Floridian

[Anonymous Coward]

That's funny, I'm a native Floridian, and I understand Indian accents fine...

Tell me about it!

[ravenspear]

I'm working on an ecommerce site right now for a client who got sick of the Indian developers who originally were working with it. The funniest thing about the code is the parts where the spelling is actually worse than on /.

I keep seeing stuff like:

function calkulate_shiping($prodoct) {
if (in_shoping_cart($prodoct)) {
return get_shiping_charge($prodoct);
}
}

$shiping_charge = calkulate_shiping($prodoct);
$acount_balence = $acount_balence - ($prodoct_price + shiping_charge);

Re:Tell me about it!

[NubKnacker]

I'd really like to know who modded this to Informative.

No one types, 'calkulate' anymore. If you know how to code, the least you know is how to spell words like product and calculate. The above is clearly made up.

If you have to insult Indians, atleast do it truthfully. And the next time, don't try to overdo the whole spelling mistake routine.

Re:Tell me about it!

[ravenspear]

The above example was indeed made up, simply because I didn't feel like digging though code looking for an appropriate real example. However I am working on an ecommerce site that Indians used to work on, and the spelling is very bad. That part was not made up.

Re:Tell me about it!

[ravenspear]

Also it wasn't my intention to insult Indians, I was just relating a humorous anecdote regarding the article topic that Indians need more English speaking workers (which clearly sometimes is the case).

Re:Tell me about it!

[NubKnacker]

Atleast be realistic in your example.

Can we spell as well as the rest of the English speaking world? No. Not the majority atleast.

Can we speak english as well as the rest of the english speaking world? No.

Can we spell and type 'calculate' and 'product'? Yes, you bet your ass we can.

I hope you understand why I took offense to what you said.

What comes around goes around someplace else

[Quirk]

Classical economics, perhaps most identified with John M. Keynes, has faced the problem of mobility of the working force repeatedly since, cirica 1960 when it was suggested that structural unemployment presented the need to prepare workers to shift careers and move to where the jobs are. Classical economics has faced it's own needs to shift to new paradigms in the face of work by Complexity theorists like Brian Authur, but the problems of worker mobility remain. There are all sorts of barriers to mobility, whether vertical or lateral, but getting people to move to where the employment opportunities are is a sticky one.

If India needs english speaking teckies, then it presents the old problem of worker mobility in a new light. Taking a page from Hot money it may be a new trend will arise where skills will move to where the relative cost of living will maintain or increase their net income. Living in a foreign land can be a bitch but if it means putting money in the bank then, perhaps, as a short term strategy it will win converts and create a global work force. This may be aided by the adoption of English as the lingua franca.

support calls.

[kdark1701]

Does this mean we'll finally be able to understand the people on the other end of the support calls.?

European take

[Anonymous Coward]

In general I've found outsourced Indian services to be far superior to the older American version. Less fucking about, greater efficiency, more focus, less arrogance. And what a highly skilled workforce (hell, even the guy fielding sales calls probably has a Masters degree under his belt) with a desire to offer a high quality customer service. Its very refreshing from dealing with the "our way or no way" Americans and their inpenetrable accents. Back when our service contract terminated in America one got the impression that the staff felt answering a phone beneath them and had one eye on the clock the whole time they were supposed to be giving you their attention. Sure, an Indian guy might not understand you or vice versa, but admit the fact and the two of you can normally make yourself understood; the key is, as I've said, attitude. I'm not surprised many Americans are complaining about the quality of Indian services, its why the suck at offering them to anyone else.

Re:European take

[militiaMan]

We should complain. We should fight against a police state that will not enforce fair trade (a dollar buys the same stuff here as it does other places). Our education system is gone, the good jobs are gone, and prices are sky high. Average income adjusted for inflation for a U.S. citizen was down or flat from 1968-2004 with exception to 1984. www.bls.org. Our buying power is now below what is was in 1950. So yes we are pissed and the rich will either leave soon or die soon for the false exchange rates.

Holy shit!

[MisanthropicProgram]

I'm going to mention this to my wife - She's a nurse.

Do you think it's people who want to get in on the Oil checks (I don't know what it's called) you guys get? Because everywhere else in the US, nurses get a sign-on bonuses of $10,000+ (I've seen the ads myself) for just starting to work there. What I'm saying is, those nurses can leave Alaska and make a really nice living.

Re:Holy shit!

[RealAlaskan]

Do you think it's people who want to get in on the Oil checks (I don't know what it's called) [It's called the Permanent Fund Dividend] you guys get?

Definitely not that. The PFD doesn't begin to make up for our high cost of living and generally low wages.

Because everywhere else in the US, nurses get a sign-on bonuses of $10,000+ (I've seen the ads myself) for just starting to work there.

Places in Alaska are making the same sort of offers. I just recently heard from a nurse who's moving to Juneau on exactly such a deal. I think that she mentioned $15,000, though I could be completely wrong. She wants to work in her field, so she's taking a job that stinks (my opinion, not hers).

What I'm saying is, those nurses can leave Alaska and make a really nice living.

Well, here or there, they can make a decent yearly salary for long hours of back breaking, stressfull work that is made more backbreaking and more stressfull by the fact that they're always understaffed. Short-staffing is the new perennial complaint of nurses today, joining the traditional complaint of low pay. As for a ``nice living'', well, you need to look at the yearly income, and the hours you work to get it. Nursing is a little less a ``nice living'' than the yearly income indicates, if you're working much more than 2000 hours a year to get it, or if the stress is ruining your physical and mental health.

I haven't checked (don't have that sort of access to the state's occupational licensing database), but I suspect that most of those nurses who aren't working in patient care are already making a nice living in some other sort of health care work, like filling out insurance forms or selling bedpans and wheelchairs to invalids.

What I do know is what I said: there are far more licensed, able-to-work nurses than there are jobs. Here, there are twice as many licensed nurses as nursing jobs, and I suspect that's equally true in every state in the union. There's a shortage, alright: a shortage of licensed nurses who are willing to accept bad pay and bad conditions, relative to what their training will let them earn elsewhere. If the hospitals ever get back to full staffing and pay a market rate, there will be more than enough nurses to go around.

Nothing to be happy about

[js3]

It seems most of these "jobs" are the tech support calls where you sit behind a phone and answer questions.

Just filling the gaps, I guess.

[ErichTheRed]

The outsourcing countries have major advantages that we would require significant adjustment to overcome:

1. They've got a huge workforce of people who are overjoyed to work. If your choice was between call center/coding/offshored clerical work and whatever job you could get back in your village, what would you choose? I'm actually working on a partially outsourced project now...a couple of our developers went over to India to work, and they report that people are more than happy to work 15-16 hour days.
2. The standard of living is much lower. Everyone doesn't need the newest car, latest clothes or an expensive house. In the US, a lot of the salary inflation is because keeping up in the consumer universe is so expensive.
3. Education is considered important. Those stories you hear of immigrant students doing much better in school are true. It's considered shameful to fail in most other countries. True, we may not be graduating as many scientists and engineers because the employment prospects are so dismal, but I think it's mainly because parents don't push their kids to do well as much as they do in other countries. If/when I have kids, they will be education robots...nothing but study until they're finished with school. That's the only way we can compete.

So in comparison, we have an expensive, undereducated country with a poor work ethic. No wonder we're losing this battle!

Re:Just filling the gaps, I guess.

[assassinator42]

"It's considered shameful to fail in most other countries." It is considered shameful to fail here in the US. They probably do work harder though. I've not been diligent in my High School and before studies, but I still get good grades. Hm..... Also, have you ever read Hard Times? We read that in English class. I didn't like it too much, but it warns of the dangers of making kids educational robots.

Re:Just filling the gaps, I guess.

[Anonymous Coward]

You're an idiot

Re:English-speaking language skills in short suppl

[Anonymous Coward]

I would have written it: "...some of them speak even more weller then some Slashdot editors.

"Sum of dem speek, even more weller, then sum Slashdot editor's."

Because there's already

[MisanthropicProgram]

plenty of American nurses in school ready to work for the increased wages. Eventually wages will come into parity (- forgive my lack of Economic vocabulary).My fault, I posted an inconsistancyin the grandparent.

Re:Because there's already

[AtariAmarok]

"plenty of American nurses in school ready to work for the increased wages"

But if you have qualified nurses who will work for less, you don't have to cut corners on patient care by reducing the # of nurses or cutting in other areas.

More appropriate title

[kryocore]

In Soviet Russia, India recruits you!

Yeah it's old but I still laugh.

Exactly!

[MisanthropicProgram]

Unfortunately, my many years of learning on and off the job doesn't mean much anymore. That's why I'm leaving the field - or trying to leave. I've lost the joy of developing software.

May you never feel this way!

You've got spam...

[mcho]

The other day, I randomly received an e-mail from a person in India seeking employment with my start-up. Well, I'm just a one person company, so I'm not looking for anybody. But it was interesting to receive this message because of the hustle.

And, in my opinion, outsourcing to another country probably doesn't too much sense for everybody, but it's the "thing to do" and there's been a lot of hype promoting this practice.

Re:You've got spam...

[Anonymous Coward]

FYI, Google has devalued inbound links from Slashdot comments (like "hustle") for a long time now. Spamming the comments, however subtlely, won't get you anywhere; you need to get linked on the front page as a story submitter.

Re:You've got spam...

[mcho]

Huh? Actually, I couldn't think of a word, but I was listening to the new G. Love album, the Hustle, so I thought it would be neat to include that -- bad inside joke I guess.

Thanks for the tip, but I definitely don't want to be associated as a spammer or someone to "hustles" the system for better search rankings. ;)

That article is just absurd

[xbsd]

The article makes no sense at all:

1. The main (if not the only) reasons to outsource a job to India are a)Operating expenses b)A large pool of talented but underpaid engineers. If the pool is running out of human resources, they will just relocate those jobs to China. With a population of 1.6 billion, a 0.001% of German or French speakers still gives you 1.6 million Chinese people to choose from.

2. Also, you can easily find 20k, 30k, 40k underpaid engineers in Central America or impoverished nations in South America such as Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Bolivia, Ecuador and Peru. The Russians may be well-served by Eastern European countries outside the EU, such as Belarus, Georgia, and the -istans.

3. And no, those jobs wont go back to the US. If a foreign euro laguage is one of the requirements, the worst place to look it for is in one of the most monolingual societies in the developed world. Sadly, the US it's one of the few places where people brag about not being able to speak a foreign language.

Re:That article is just absurd

[brickballs]

I dont brag about not knowing a foreign language.

I'm actualy not particularly happy about this; I wish I knew German better.
I had a 4.0 untill I took German.

Re:That article is just absurd

[dustmite]

You may be able to find Chinese people who can speak French, but not as well as a mother-tongue speaker, and not without an accent.

I saw a documentary about an Indian call center firm that was hiring young Europeans. One of the main attractions in doing so is that they speak fluently in the language of the person they're helping - so the person they're helping feels like they're being helped by a local, not a low-paid foreigner far away.

But here's the thing. Europe has a problem with rising unemployment, and particularly so amongst the youth - 60% of the unemployed are under 25. So they are currently unable to meaningfully integrate young people coming out of the school systems into the economy. And so increasingly young people are living in poorer and poorer conditions, with no "place" in European society anymore. So it is the poorest of the Europeans, those young people with nothing to lose and everything to gain, that are increasingly willing to go to places like India for jobs. In that documentary, you could see all of the hired Europeans were all young, and all from the lower European classes, unemployable back home. They are generally unskilled. They can get these low-paying jobs because practically the only requirement is ability to speak their mother tongue.

So it's not so much engineering jobs that are necessarily being created for foreigners in India - India has plenty of its own engineers. It's jobs that attract the poor, the unskilled, the desparate. They are starting to import unskilled foreigners to fill a need in their economy (that should sound familiar to countries like France). I'm not sure what the long-term net effect of that would be in a country that already has low living standards, especially if the newcomers cannot meaningfully be culturally integrated either, as with France's immigration problem. Maybe they'll just become a new bunch of low-paid people in India with low quality of life - only white. Still, if all this grows their economy, as it seems to be, it must ultimately (surely) create higher level jobs at some point in the future. And then eventually everyone just wants to move there because it's "where all the opportunities are". If they diversify enough and industrialise successfully.

I mean, if you think about it, the US also started out, and became very successful, by being a country that attracted the 'poorest of the poor', the tired, the desperate, those people who had no "place" in their own homelands anymore (insert famous Statue of Liberty 'huddled masses' quote here.)

In any case, something odd seems to be happening with economies globally, and through globalisation ... we seem to be entering unchartered territory here; what the long-term effects are really going to be will probably only be clear many decades from now.

Why is this good news?

[beforewisdom]

The implication in the original poster's blurg is roughly "see you weren't losing anything after all".

I disagree.

1. Americans have American I.T. jobs with American companies at American wages.

2. Those American I.T. companies send those jobs overseas so they can pay the workers less.

3. One of those countries can't find enough people to staff these jobs so they will invite foreigners to come apply for them.

End result. If you are a western IT worker you can keep your job if you take a drastic pay cut and move to a 3rd world country literally around the world.

Let me know the part where the "noise" about off shoring was much ado about nothing.

HMO

[supun]

If I move to IndiA, and take a job, does my HMO cover marauding monkey bites?

Cost of living

[TheLittleJetson]

I'm sure the shitty wage would go a lot further living in India than it would living in Southern California. Maybe I should send a resume.

It's happening that way.

[MisanthropicProgram]

And people are dying because of it or nurses are standing up for themseleves and getting fired.

You're on your own now.

Lucky Guess

[alvinrod]

My parents have one at home. I'm going to be formatting it again sometime this weekend. I know better than to waste my time talking to tech support from another country only to have them tell me to do what I was going to anyway.

At least the only person who has files that need extensive backing up is my brother. I feel sorry for the people who have several gigs of pictures and other things they'd like to backup, but can't because the system is so virus plagued it's impossible to do anything.

Biting off more than they can chew?

[erroneus]

On the radio on the way in to work today, I heard a story about yet another market that India(n entrepreneurs) are getting into in a quick way -- animation. It seems that even though there was no market for it at all in India, hundreds of thousands of Indians have gotten themselves trained in animation and are geared up for just about any project from commercials to children's entertainment, feature films and maybe even Anime.

Let's get a check on reality here -- it would seem the picture that's being painted is that India's economy is being based largely on outsource activities. That's all well and good but sounds amazingly like too many eggs in one basket. What else does India do? Surely the picture being painted is somewhat tainted or is India as surreal as it sounds?

Now given that a great deal of the business activities that are booming over there has a lot to do with communication with people of other nations and liguistic bases, it would seem more than a little prudent for them to add emphasis to their ability to speak other languages instead of selling these less-than-understandable services. As the article clearly points out, they simply lack those skills in spite of all their other training. I think it's time the Indians stopped speaking Indian and started speaking English, for example. (I'm sure other languages are important too, but none quite as commercially viable as English.... no arguments please, you're wrong.)

I wonder, then, when the supplier will meet the demands of their customers?

Re:Biting off more than they can chew?

[prasad1958]

I simply fail to understand your logic! Lots of Indians speak better "English" than most of the 'English' in "English"speaking nations !And that too in a nation which does NOT have "English" as their mother tongue...instead of bickering about "English",why don't we try to improve our skills and better them in every aspect to get back our "lost"jobs ?

Re:Biting off more than they can chew?

[Anonymous Coward]

huh...there in no language named indian and every state has their own language...so an educated indian would happen to know atleast their mother tongue and the 2 official languages- english and hindi

Re:Biting off more than they can chew?

[Anonymous Coward]

Surely the picture being painted is somewhat tainted or is India as surreal as it sounds?

The picture is tainted. IT services make up less than 10% of India's GDP. Even though India might not represent a big market opportunity right now, but it is among the fastest growing market in every field - cars, cellphone, computers.

karma: not just for Indians...

[quarkscat]

NAFTA encouraged many American companies to build manufacturing facilities in Mexico. The impetus was cheaper labor, no labor unions, no benefits, no cumbersome environmental regulations -- in short, all those things that the Clinton regime was supposed to address in follow-up legislation when promises were made to American trade unions.

But some companies that established Mexican facilities decided that Mexican workers still cost too much money, so they imported Chinese labor to replace the Mexicans. As the infrastructure and regulatory situation improved in the PRC, these same companies pulled up stakes and moved to China, leaving behind a lot of unemployed Mexican AND Chinese workers. (Many of these workers have since illegally immigrated to the USA through the porous southern border.)

Whatever labor gap India may currently have that impacts their offshore outsourcing business, so long as they continue to invest in their human and technical infrastructure, the situation will correct itself. OTOH, the Dubya/neo-con regime in the USA is not only not willing to invest in improving either their human or technical infrastructure, they are hard at work dismantling the remnants of the social safety net by any means possible. It is not hard to foresee that both China and India will be 1st-world world powers within 20 years, while America will have slid into the position of a feudal 3rd-world economic basket case.

Re:karma: not just for Indians...

[sapgau]

Well I agree with most of your post. I beleive India will start reporting incredible growth rates in the coming years, but that is to be expected compared to their current level of exports and national economy - apparently it remains highly agricultural.

What's different in India compared to China is their form of government and english background, that should be easier to deal with in "western" countries. But India should distinguish itself soon as a credible powerhouse, it should learn from Korea, Singapur, Indonesia, etc. and not try to reinvent the wheel.

The USA will still be a major stakeholder in capital and investement even 20 years from now. But is hard to imagine what type of economy people will be living in... 100% service oriented?

It will be great to hear from slashdotters living in India to report the country's progress, specially in IT.

My $0.02

It's a question of exchange rates

[mangu]

It won't be long until Indian workers (and foreign workers in India) demand a standard of living that drives up their required salaries.

The technical people in India and other third-world countries already have a standard of living that's equal or above their counterparts in the USA and Europe. Their wages only seem so low because the money exchanges aren't linear.

India, China, and other countries keep their exchange rates artificially low to increase their exports. This is made necessary mostly because the USA and Europe have heavy subsidies on agricultural products that compete with third-world exports. What's the point in subsidizing orange growth in Florida, if Brazil has perfect soil and climate for growing oranges, while Florida is only marginally adequate for oranges? Why does Europe grow sugar beets if sugar cane produces sugar at much lower costs?

In order for less industrialized countries to compete with the agricultural products which make most of their economy, they must lower prices by depressing the exchange rates.

If you are an unemployed engineer in the USA, blame not the CEO who follows a sane economic policy. Blame the farmers and their lobbyists.

Re:It's a question of exchange rates

[Jardine]

What's the point in subsidizing orange growth in Florida, if Brazil has perfect soil and climate for growing oranges, while Florida is only marginally adequate for oranges? Why does Europe grow sugar beets if sugar cane produces sugar at much lower costs?

What happens if the few nations that grow sugar cane decide to cut off the supply to certain countries?

First you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women.

Re:It's a question of exchange rates

[TheSync]

Their wages only seem so low because the money exchanges aren't linear.

No, the wages of Indian IT workers are low because of lower worker productivity and a large labor pool for a small labor demand because of low capital investment. But as capital investments are made in the sector in India and thus labor demand rises, so will their salaries, about 10% per year so far.

China has a slightly offset currency situation, but only about 15%, much less than the difference between average US and Indian IT salaries.

Re:It's a question of exchange rates

[Derkec]

They either have to cut off the supply to everyone or to noone. The global marketplace is too efficient to cut off one customer. Plus, you'd need a cartel to arrange that and I think oil has just about the only half-decent cartel.

Re:It's a question of exchange rates

[Panaphonix]

What happens if the few nations that grow sugar cane decide to cut off the supply to certain countries?

90% of their farmers go out of business. Not going to happen. Now, a global warming-induced supply shock on the other hand...

First you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women.
LOLLERSKATES!

Re:It's a question of exchange rates

[Anonymous Coward]

Gotta call bullshit on this one. The tech ppl in India certainly dont have a better standard of living than their counterparts in the US. They do have a better standard of living than other professionals in India. I work in the US and my counterparts in India that have the same position in the same company as I do cant even touch the lifestyle I practice here. The US is much much much better in terms of day to day standard of living in India.

Re:It's a question of exchange rates

[kerrbear]

The technical people in India and other third-world countries already have a standard of living that's equal or above their counterparts in the USA and Europe. Their wages only seem so low because the money exchanges aren't linear.

Which is fine for them, but won't be all that great for foreigners; they will need much more money to offset the inconvenience of living overseas and they will need subsidized housing, etc. so they can amass nestegg money for their eventual return. That's the only way India is going to get them. This has been the way ESL teachers have done it for years.

Re:It's a question of exchange rates

[ultimabaka]

Good strong economic analysis. I like that. Although I'm not so sure about the broadreaching statement that they simply "live better" than people in the US or Europe.

On an aside, however, good luck trying to get anything done in terms of the farmers and their lobbyists. For little more than reasons of national pride, farmers are the most heavily protected group of people, no matter where they are, in the entire world. The political fallout of removing any kind of subsidy from the farmers group would be heard throughout the country, and it simply doesn't make any sense.

Until you insert into peoples' heads the idea that all nations "must" be self-sufficient foodwise, else suffer horrible failure...or something.

Re:It's a question of exchange rates

[Anonymous Coward]

the wages of Indian IT workers are low because of lower worker productivity

You don't really believe that, do you?

Re:It's a question of exchange rates

[gnalle]

The technical people in India and other third-world countries already have a standard of living that's equal or above their counterparts in the USA and Europe. Their wages only seem so low because the money exchanges aren't linear.

How many rupees do indian programmers earn per month? 30000?

At the moment I have a position research fellow on a university in Bangalore, and as far as I can see the indian researchers have a somewhat lower standard of living than their (northern) European colleges. But I must admit that I don't know the difference in salaries for programmers.

BTW: Bangalore is a nice place. I can only encourage slashdot readers to go there if they get the chance :)

Re:It's a question of exchange rates

[Anonymous Coward]

If you become dependant upon other people to feed you... You tend to die if they stop doing so.

Re:It's a question of exchange rates

[TheSync]

Yes, I do. The average Indian IT worker does not have access to the same level of capital and thus infrastructure support that an American IT worker does.

That is part of the explanation, of course, the mismatch between Indian IT labor supply and demand is the other half (and probably dominant part) of the reason.

Re:It's a question of exchange rates

[the-build-chicken]

What's the point in subsidizing orange growth in Florida, if Brazil has perfect soil and climate for growing oranges, while Florida is only marginally adequate for oranges? Why does Europe grow sugar beets if sugar cane produces sugar at much lower costs?

I heard this argument put to a european diplomat onces and the answer he gave, which I though insightful, was something like (not verbatim):

It's true that the crops our farmers grow can be grown cheaper elsewhere, however we choose to recognise that farms and farming communities give us more than just their agricultural output. They give us values, a community. They give us a connection with our heritage and control over our food supplies. They are custodians of the land and maintain our country side. They assist in preserving agricultural knowledge and preserving a way of life that is beneficial to all our citizens. We realise there is a premium to be payed for all of this and are willing to pay it though subsidies.

Re:It's a question of exchange rates

[dextroz]

How long were you in Bangalore? I am guessing one week, max.

To answer your questions:

An avg programmer (engineer) starts at Rs. 20,000/month ~$500/mo

A programmer of 5-6 years might earn $1000/mo. Peaking at $2000/mo - assuming he does not become a Manager.

Now compare this:

4 Tomatoes in the US cost $3 ~Rs 150.
For that price you get 40 tomatoes in India.

So in this respect India is a better standard of living.

However, any commodity that comes from the outside will always be more expensive for India's because of the large inflated cost additives.

My point? I forgot it myself. But hope this information adds up to something :-/

Re:It's a question of exchange rates

[jesterzog]

they will need much more money to offset the inconvenience of living overseas and they will need subsidized housing, etc. so they can amass nestegg money for their eventual return.

I don't see what the issue is with this "eventual return" thing. I live in New Zealand, which also has a relatively low cost of living.

For a lot of people here, when they go overseas, they don't even bother trying to save the money so they can travel. There's little point, because the New Zealand dollar isn't worth a lot in terms of cost-of-living overseas. What people get paid here is perfectly adequate for living here, but it's much less than what's needed elsewhere. (We do get a lot of overseas tourists, because it's a comparably cheap place to visit.)

Instead, they go overseas for a working holiday. ie. They work overseas to pay for living overseas. For people going on holiday, it definitely helps to be from the US or Europe and travelling to somewhere like India. But if you have the job once you get there, it's not as critical-an-issue to have a bulk amount in advance. You'll be working there anyway.

Re:It's a question of exchange rates

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're claiming that India has a standard of living equal or better than USA or Europe, you must be deluding yourself.

I am Indian (Indian born) and my work takes me between the US and India every 6-8 mos. I see and get reminded first hand of the differences frequently enough to know how things actually stand.

The air pollution on a "good day" in a city like Madras rivals the worst I've *EVER* seen in the 15+ years I've been in the US. Autos, taxis, rickshaws have no pollution/emission control except in Delhi, so there is nothing forcing people to properly maintain their vehicles (and of course they don't).

If the standard of living is "equal" to US/Europe, then I should be able to drink the tap water in any major cosmopolatan city. Strangely my family, in a nice area of Bombay, uses a complex water purifier because the water they get, even in a "posh" area is not sanitary.

The "technical" people you speak of may have a nice flat or house, but the surrounding areas, the country itself is NOT a pleasant place to live.

Water, air and noise pollution factor into "standard of living" as do sanitary conditions.

Re:It's a question of exchange rates

[gauauu]

The technical people in India and other third-world countries already have a standard of living that's equal or above their counterparts in the USA and Europe. Their wages only seem so low because the money exchanges aren't linear.

Where do you get this stuff? This is NOT TRUE. How do I know? I am an American, working in China, for a software outsourcing company in one of the richest cities in the country. My coworkers are all software engineers, considering this a GOOD JOB, and their standard of living is NOT equal to or above mine in the US, and my job in the US paid under 40K.

For example:

How many of them can afford to live in apartments that are high enough quality to have safe wiring and elevators? Maybe half.

How many of them feel like they can afford to run the air condioning (or even have air conditioning), even when it's above 90 outside? Less than half.

How many engineers in my company can afford a car? None. Everyone takes an hour long bus when a car ride would only take 15 minutes.

I showed some pictures of my home back in the US, and talked about my life there, and people said it would be like a dream to have the life I lived there.

Maybe India is different, but I'm sorry, at least in China, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Re:It's a question of exchange rates

[mangu]

The "technical" people you speak of may have a nice flat or house, but the surrounding areas, the country itself is NOT a pleasant place to live.

That was exactly what I meant, engineers live in the "best" areas. I'm an electronic engineer and I design control systems (mostly software, but some hardware too) for a Brazilian aerospace company. I have lived in Brazil, Colombia, Sweden, USA, and France.

The air pollution problem in Brazil is much better than what you mention for India, the air pollution problem I saw in Denver is certainly worse than in my neighbourhood in Rio de Janeiro.

The water problem you mention may be true for India, but not in Brazil. There are places without treated water, but in major cities it's normally safe to drink tap water. OTOH, I cannot drink the tap water in either the south of France, or Italy, or the western USA, the water is too "hard" there, tastes horribly. Of course, that's a natural problem, comes from the alkaline ground, but you must also take into account nature when defining a standard of living. Considering the climate, the fact that there is no cold winter in Rio de Janeiro means, first, that I have no heating bill, second, that the air always has a comfortable level of humidity. No dried nostrils and I don't get zapped when stepping out of cars. Electric shocks are one of the worst types of pain, getting tiny shocks several times a day certainly lowers my standard of living...

The level of violence is higher in the third world, but the only time I had to cancel a trip because of violence was in april 1992 when I was in Denver and intended to travel to Los Angeles, because of the Rodney King riots.

Salaries are lower, but that's compensated by lower cost of living. Food costs about five times as much in Cannes as in Rio de Janeiro, even more if you eat in a restaurant. The real issue here, as I mentioned are exchange rates. For an "engineers salary" you can buy much more food in Brazil than in Europe, and much more services, but less electronic equipment. Cars cost about the same.

Housing, the biggest single cost item for a normal engineer, is cheaper both in absolute levels and in relation to salary in Brazil. I live in a beachfront apartment, four bedrooms, 175 square meters. It's in a condo with a private wooded area of 45 hectares, at a one-hour driving distance from downtown Rio de Janeiro. Fiber optic OC-3 coming into the condo, three cable TV providers, five broadband providers, I pay $20/month for 384 kbps, $10/month for 45 TV channels. It cost me the equivalent of $200k, less than 100 "senior engineer months". Try finding something like that at a one-hour driving distance from any major city in Europe or the USA for that price.

Of course, this comparison is not valid for less educated people, but for engineers in the upper middle class, the level of living I have seen in the "third" world is about equal to the "first" world. Tastes may vary, of course, cultural adaptation will play a major role when choosing a place to live. Something that may be a small detail for one person could be a decisive factor for another.

Re:It's a question of exchange rates

[Anonymous Coward]

Your argument falls apart when you consider anything less basic than tomatos. How much does a Toyota or a Dell cost in India? Around 25% more than it does in the US. Having lived in both countries, making around $1000 a month in India and aound $5500 a month in the US, I still think the standard of living in the US is higher. I can drive something better than a toyota here :-)

Re:It's a question of exchange rates

[Anonymous Coward]

Indian currency ( rupee ) is fully float. Its not supported by the government to maintain exchange rates.

Re:It's a question of exchange rates

[dextroz]

You know what, I'll actually agree with you. I was definitely talking through my ass for that one.

Re:It's a question of exchange rates

[Tablizer]

What happens if the few nations that grow sugar cane decide to cut off the supply to certain countries?

No more sugar highs? Oh the horror! Now *that's* terrorism.

Re:It's a question of exchange rates

[Tablizer]

Don't you guys have inexpensive servents there?

Re:It's a question of exchange rates

[Tablizer]

This is made necessary mostly because the USA and Europe have heavy subsidies on agricultural products that compete with third-world exports.....if you are an unemployed engineer in the USA, blame not the CEO who follows a sane economic policy. Blame the farmers and their lobbyists.

Or, blame the Electorial College, which favors rural States and their agendas because of the way votes are puffed up for smaller States via the EC.

Re:It's a question of exchange rates

[peachpuff]

"If you are an unemployed engineer in the USA, blame not the CEO who follows a sane economic policy. Blame the farmers and their lobbyists."

I've spent years hearing people give economic justifications for things--not just on Slashdot, but in also in person--and I recently broke down and did some research into economics to see what all the fuss was about. Turns out, there's no such thing as a "justification" in economics.

As far as I can tell, it boils down to two rules:

1. Everyone tries to get what they want.
2. The best way for someone to get what they want depends on what everyone else is doing.

The End (pretty much).

That means anyone can be blamed for anything, a la Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon. Anyone can also be defended for anything by pointing out that they're just looking out for themselves like everyone else.

1. Pick a group.
2. Pick a problem.
3. Use economics to show that the group is to blame for the problem.
4. ???
5. Profit!

"Blame farmers for the outsourcing of high-tech jobs" is such a good example I had to mention it.

Re:It's a question of exchange rates

[fferreres]

If you don't produce food, you heavily depend on other contries. Food comes before clothes, housing, entertainment, sex and everything else. It's like insurance against "war". Look at it like "National Defense" spending (unless what's being produced is exported).

Re:It's a question of exchange rates

[listen]

It is utterly ridiculous to compare Brazil and India. I've been to both : Brazil is really very western in comparison to India. The quality of life is much better - so what point did you think you were proving with your travel diary?

Re:It's a question of exchange rates

[idril]

Take for example a European who works in a low-cost country for a couple of years. The amount he or she earns in the low-cost country will be more than enough to have a good standard of living while they are there, but on a local salary it will be difficult to amass the portion of retirement savings (or house payments) that he or she would normally have saved working the same couple of years in Europe.

That's the problem. That person will live very well for a few years in Asia but when they get back to their home country in Europe they'll be disadvantaged compared to their peers who stayed there (or as my Belgian friend says, if he earns locally, when he goes back home he won't be able to afford a house).

For intra-company transfers this can be helped somewhat by keeping the employee's pension contributions in their home country. I guess expats on local terms could be offered a similar arrangement where they could maintain the same level of retirement savings but the rest of their salary covering other living expenses are closer to local levels.

(I do agree the traditional expat packages are usually too much.)

Re:It's a question of exchange rates

[dodobh]

An IT worker needs a computer (or a bunch of them), and Internet connectivity. Both of which are available.

The IT industry does not need all that much capital investment per worker in terms of end user devices. The costs are all in connecting to the backbone, and that isn't too bad.

Re:It's a question of exchange rates

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't say that the factor you have cited is all there is to it. I suspect that wages are still lower in China and India at the moment because jobs in their export industries pay better than many of the alternatives within the country. The other reason that I suspect that's true is that there are still plenty of Chinese and Indians willing to come to the US to work.

For anyone who doesn't think that tariffs and artificial exchange rate have effects on a broad range of industries, I highly recommend Henry Hazlitt's classic book Economics In One Lesson. It lays bare the real costs and benefits of tariffs, subsidies, price ceilings and floors, etc. It's short and filled with examples.

Re:It's a question of exchange rates

[TheSync]

http://www.infusionblogs.com/blogs/gbrill/archive/ 2005/05/18/117.aspx

Re:It's a question of exchange rates

[Anonymous Coward]

Right, there's no point in remaining self-sufficient in food. Heck, our dependence on foreign oil has worked out pretty well for us...

To confirm you're not a script,

please type the text shown in this image: pirgtyz

RE: blame not the CEO...

[Richard Steiner]

More and more it seems like "a sane economic policy" means "making decisions to obtain short-term savings and line my own packets at the expense of long-term viability".

Is that really sanity? Or is it just greed?

Price isn't the only factor

[spockvariant]

You have to understand that the cost benefit will soon cease to be the dominant factor in outsourcing. The prices of supply-chain consulting in India have been rising at a rate of 15-20% every year. Moreover, the mechanics that move this business are nearing a point of saturation (all flights - inland and overseas are _always_ booked, hotels are jam packed). The other factor, which Americans will probably want to deny - is the productivity factor. The average guy sitting behind a helpdesk in India is more often than not a college graduate. People who do supply-chain related work very often graduate from the absolute best universities in the country. The reason they're doing this kind of work of course, is that there is often no avenue for improvement. Whereas a Berkeley graduate in the US might go into scientific research, or tech-intensive development, a corresponding IIT graduate does not have those kinds of jobs, at least in India. What it means is that Indians in the same positions in outsourced jobs are often more productive, and for the moment, they're also cheaper.

I smell an opportunity

[WormholeFiend]

to start a TESL school in India

Move to India?

[cathryn]

I don't know if I could make it. I'm just worried my digestive system would never be able to handle South Asia.

Are you sure?

[douglips]

http://www.finfacts.com/costofliving4.htm

According to this index, it looks like living in Mumbai or New Dehli costs about 45% of what it costs in New York, and 1/3 what it costs in Tokyo.

Does it really cost 2.29 Rupees for a loaf of bread (I just bought one for $2.29) or can you really rent an apartment in Mumbai for under 3000 Rupees/month?

Hint: When I was in Turkey and the exchange rate was 400,000 lira to the dollar, I wasn't able to get a meal at any restaurant for less than a million lira.

Re:Are you sure?

[Lally Singh]

Earlier posts on /. from folks living in Bangalore priced apartments at 1200 rupees, and dining costs similar to NY, only in rupees, not in $$.

I believe that the index looks at pure-equivalent level of living, instead of class-equivalent. The difference being the comparison of the cost of a honda civic vs the cost of a midrange car. The midrange car used by most folks would cost lots less than the civic.

Re:Are you sure?

[dodobh]

Yeouch! 2.29 INR for a loaf of bread is expensive. It costs about half that in most places.

Again, depending on what you want and the locality, your rent can vary from 2000 INR to about 1000,000 INR per month in Mumbai (You can comfortably live in Mumbai on 10000 INR/mth, particularly if you use public transport. And Mumbai's public transport is excellent).

New Delhi is a bit more expensive to live in, as is Bangalore.

Indian language.

[AtariAmarok]

"huh...there in no language named indian and every state has their own language"

The parent was correct when he referred to "speaking Indian". Check the dictionary: "Indian...A native or inhabitant of India or of the East Indies. a) A member of any of the Native American peoples except the Eskimos, Aleuts, and Inuits. B) Any of the languages of these peoples.

Re:Indian language.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ha! Do you believe everything the dictionary tells you??

Ok...Seriously... There is no language called "Indian." It can be used as an Adjective.. but not as a Noun.

Re:Indian language.

[Anonymous Coward]

This is what the dictionary says
Indian:
n.
1. A native or inhabitant of India or of the East Indies.
2.
a. A member of any of the Native American peoples except the Eskimos, Aleuts, and Inuits.
b. Any of the languages of these peoples.

It looks to me that this refers to the languages of the people in category "2" and not "1".

eBookers have been doing this for a while

[alekd]

I know that eBookers has hired quite a few Norwegians to work in their call centre in India. The pay is bad, certainly compared to Norwegian standards.

The people they hire are usually young people wanting to experience something different for a year. Given the high rate of attrition in Indian call-centre, a year is actually considered pretty long.

Just say non/nee!

[Anonymous Coward]

The scope of the DMCA appears to have been substantially narrowed by a case decided by the Federal Circuit.

Vote no to the European constitution. We want to be able to substantially narrow the scope of the EUCD in the future.

Vote no. By voting no, you are not voting against Europe, you are voting for a better Europe, where citizen's right again count more than those of multinational companies!

Vote no.

Only in the western business world

[suitepotato]

do you send jobs around the other side of the planet done over a globe spanning network to work with databases hosted on servers back in the west where the jobs used to be worked, and then send the westerners who used to do them to the far east to do the work there instead of simply doing it here where the servers and customers are in the first place.

Now we're not just outsourcing jobs, we're outsourcing the workers themselves. "Get packed Johnson and start developing a taste for curry. You're going back to your old job, but you're going to do it in Bangalore."

"But I'll still be paid as much as before and it won't cost you less."

"Don't confuse me with logic and common sense."

okay...

[dlefavor]

That's fine.

I find myself frowning when US companies export work to people who will never be buying their products. They sacrifice the top line for the bottom line. What they fail to realize is that nobody will ever save themselves to prosperity.

Maybe an example is in order. A local firm where I live just sent 90 jobs to India. That firm sells travel products. The 90 people they laid off occasionally buy those travel products, but the 90 people hired in India will most certainly not, because they're not even sold in India. Those 90 people occasionally bought Buicks and bacon and countless other products from the local economy. How much of the income earned by those 90 people in India will find its way to my company? I know I've lost the business of the 90 newly-unemployed workers.

Laying off your customers is a Very Bad Idea. Laying off my customers means that I might have to lay off your customers. Is that really what US business wants?

Re:okay...

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice way to make an ass out of yourself.

Re: blame not the CEO...

[nelsonal]

Generally focusing on the long term is best in the long term. The issue is that the long term can be a very long time. As an example, it was 50 years before Japan paid for their mercantilist policies with a decade of no growth and deflation. Something similar will happen in other parts of Asia, but it could be near our retirement rather than mid career. It takes a lot of grit to stick to the proper policies after 30-50 years of losses.

Re:Why I hate India...

[randallpowell]

Who are you calling pagan?

With that insult, you made baby Ganesh and baby Buddha cry.

I say let India start their own damn companies and compete with us instead of us competing with ourselves through our own gov and companies.

Yes, there is Indian language....

[AtariAmarok]

"Ha! Do you believe everything the dictionary tells you?? "

When it is true, which it is in this case.

"Ok...Seriously... There is no language called "Indian." It can be used as an Adjective.. but not as a Noun"

However, there are languages called "Indian". As it is a plural, it can be used as a noun. Plurals do count as nouns. The parent you objected to, who referred to "speaking Indian", did not specify the singular, and his wording fits the plural. Therefore, he is correct.

Similarly, there are many Slavic languages. It is also correct to refer to someone as "speaking Slavic", whether or not the specific language is Russian, Macedonian, or Polish.

Re:English-speaking language skills in short suppl

[MrCopilot]

I'd venture to say some of them speak even more weller than some Slashdot editors.

SlashDot, Only The Besterest!

I guess I blame you for being misinformed...

[GillBates0]

I guess I blame India for short-sheeting the buying public claiming to provide "equal" services for far less cost...It's disingenuous at best, downright unethical otherwise.

You really think India is "to blame" for being a poorer country than the US of A and the other Western countries? That and the resulting favorable Exchange Rate is the reason why it's a good deal for Corporations to move their operations to India.

What do you propose they do? Artificially inflate the value of the Rupee, so that it's at par with the US Dollar so their population doesn't "compete unfairly" for American jaabs, and have the resulting rise in the cost-of-living starve out more than 50% of the population who don't earn more than a few Rupees a month?

The whole reason behind the so called "Outsourcing" is the *favorable Exchange Rate* as another poster noted further up in this thread. Unlike the popular notion, the standard-of-living of software developers is *not* lower in the US and China - infact they're among the highest paid technical workers in the market.

I suggest you blame the Corporations who want to put their profits above their ethics, rather than painting blaming a billion people with your "disingenuous/unethical" brush just because they were unfortunate (or fortunate - perspectives may differ) enough to be born into a poorer country.

Re:I guess I blame you for being misinformed...

[Anonymous Coward]

Inflating the rupee is something only the indian central bank could do and it would result in indian labour becoming even cheaper.

An increase of the dollar/rupee rate, however, wouldn't effect the cost of living for indians negatively at all. It actually benefits all indians as each of their rupees gets more buying power compared to foreign currencies.

I predicted this 2 years ago

[Retired Replicant]

The only problem is the money might make you rich by Indian standards, but could you ever afford to move back to the States? And do you really want to live in India?

Indian real estate is not cheap

[dr_pump95]

Having spent 5 months working in India, real estate in the hi-tech areas is not cheap. A half-decent apartment in Mumbai (Bombay) costs roughly the same as the equivalent in the larger American cities.

Referring back to the original article, it's not just European language skills required in India. I have been approached to work there again in support of US outsourcing contracts. I have two friends who are heading there shortly as well. Their pay rates are quite competitive with US-based contracts. In our case, it's particular product skills that are in demand. For what it's worth, I'm an Australian, not an American, and we haven't been hit quite as hard by Indian outsourcing.

One key advantage of India is that domestic labour is cheap. If you go, you typically hire a driver (don't drive in India :-) and a maid to maximise your leisure time. Health care is also quite good and inexpensive. Witness the increasing number of people going to India for surgery to avoid waiting lists and costs elsewhere in the world.

Re:Indian real estate is not cheap

[Anonymous Coward]

>>>Needles scare me!

Then don't go. Mosquito needles will poke you all the time.

Im a legal alien. Im an indian in New York.

[rritesh]

i love calling home to talk to the service reps. I like throwing them off by speaking in hindi, only to realize that they wont reply back in hindi. But it does make them giggle all scared sometimes.
In any case, the total jobs that are linked with outsourcing in India is a measly 150,000. Compare that to a share of american jobs, thats about 90,000. Out of the 90,000 or so that may have suffered, there are millions who would be happy that they are paying $40 rather than $50 for their cellphone service. Americans who raise a fuss over jobs being lost to India would be the first to support it if their cable, cell phone, computer prices were going up. The whole fiasco created by the American media is unfounded i think, where your esteemed leader is trying to cover up his tracks on why is there so much unemployment.

Maybe its just me cause i am Indian, but it is equally hard to understand certain races in the US as well. (P.C. line coming up!) Im not racist, but there are times i find Americans hard to understand, and so do some of my American friends.
I am not convinced that a guy from Boston is going to not have an accent dispute with a guy in Nashville.
Its a stereotype that people need to get over. The Indian outsourcing is in its infancy. The people there are willing to help and realise that there is money to be made. They want American customers.
But its the same scenario as an American tourist who visits foreign lands and expect it to be like America. Give people a chance to help you. All you guys venting your frustration here are probably angry when the phones ringing on the other end, grumbling 'i hope its not an Indian guy'.
With that attitude, its no surprise that there is disatisfaction.
The world may be globalised, but there are still differences.
And if you are buying a Dell, you deserve to be spending hours on the phone talking to customer service. That is your own doing. No one can help you there!

Yeah but what will they call it?

[AntoniusBlock1981]

Out-outsourcing? Insourcing? Resourcing? Arserapesourcing (the honest name)?

Second Word...

[cwest]

Sutra

Re:Second Word...

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, I am Indian, and I think this comeback is one of the most hilarious I have ever come across on /. Mod parent up.

Most people are missing the point

[geekee]

The point is, India needs to recruit x Europeans who can speak French, Dutch, etc. and English, so they can take away 100x French, Dutch, etc. jobs. They need more resource to allow other countries to outsource to India is all. When INdians figure out this is profitable, they'll study French, Dutch, etc., and eliminate the need for foreign workers here too.

In other news...

[JeiFuRi]

Indians outsource curry to the US

the lesson of Japan

[peter303]

Japan was a manufacturing laughing stock in the 1940s and 1950s. "Made in Japan" was the joke for junk then. But they caught up to the US by 1980 in quality, technology, and cost. There was even a scare they'd leave the US in the dust. However, its more of a sea-saw parity now. There some business advantages and disadvantages to each place.

Outsource yourself?

[Aeron65432]

There was a really interesting article in BusinessWeek a while back I read, about foreigners who were settling in India. It talked about how they lived in a lot of comfort, a very high standard of living, because, though they were paid $4,000peryear or so, everything costed dramatically less in India.

Speaking from personal experience, I knew a middle-class guy who moved to Brazil. He lived like a king in Brazil, big house, maids, etc. etc. etc. So there may be some advantages to outsourcing yourself.

It's all about the money folks..

[Anonymous Coward]

In India money talks and animals walk. Dude, this is not about improving the economy or crap. It's all about serving the interests of the super-rich 1% of the population.

Millions of children in the country survive without more than one meal a day. Do you think that this is going to improve that? The Indian government does absolutely nothing for its poor, absolutely nothing. The general population rides on a wave of ignorance and the caste system. There exist religious fundamentalist-extremist groups within the country that could equal or better AlQaeda. Politicians use poverty and religion as a means to achieve their goals to good effect.

The theory that 10% of the population control 90% of the resources is absolutely true in India! Welcome to the modern day slave-land.

Cheers,

Re:It's all about the money folks..

[Doc Ruby]

That is all true. Yet the Indian government is capable of executing a labor policy that is growing its tech sector globally. While America's government, with all our advantages, is incompetent to either manage our labor system, or to keep us competitive with India. This is a sad commentary on America, my country, with India's problems in the background. Someone else with Indian priorities can comment on those problems - I have not.

Re:It's all about the money folks..

[quarkscat]

Sorry, but it isn't "all about the money". Money can be a driving force for good or for evil. What it really is is about greed and "about making quick money".

While I cannot comment upon the finer points of India's financial and high technology planning, I most certainly can comment upon the greed (nay, avarice) of the USA's corporations and the politicians they own. America's tax policies favor businesses that export the USA's jobs. What is particularly disheartening is that the vast majority of our politicians favor the flood of L1-A and H1-B workers and (apparently) condone increased illegal immigration -- all of which trend towards forcing American wages downwards.
It isn't only competition in the IT or high-tech job market anymore, it's also in the construction trades, health services, automotive, real estate, and general service contracting businesses that are now effected. Anyone who makes the pitch that illegal immigration only involved undocumented "migrant workers" is either lying or stone-stupid.

Two things ...

[Niet3sche]

One is a phrase, the other an observation.

This situation (outsourcing for the wrong reasons) seems to have its own "bubble", and it seems like we're headed for its imminent explosion. To wit: the phrase is two words, and starts with "cluster".

I say "for the wrong reasons" because, last year, I was exposed to some thinking (Business Proces Re-engineering) that seemed to make sense - that a company could outsource to allow its internal experts continue to grow and expand their area(s) of expertise, without having to run the day-to-day (mundane) operations. I like to use the writing of software as an example. Given that a company wants to write software, it must first be engineered/architected (this is not "throwing code together"!), and then documentation written up, and finally the software can be developed ("coded") and final deliverable documentation developed and delivered. Given the best possible outcome of outsourcing, it is entirely plausible to keep the engineers and architects at a high-level, while giving compartmentalized code specifications to a third party for the purpose of code generation. This final stage, of course, represents the actual outsourcing.

This, I feel, gives a good approach to outsourcing insofar as it not always having to be an onerous or negative thing for a company. However, the problem as I have seen it has been that very seldom does outsourcing get done in this fashion. In fact, from what I understand from a huge company's perspective (global), India is now becoming too expensive, and so software development (including engineering and architecture/protocol design and specification and documentation) is now being done in Eastern European countries. This is, in itself, fine and well, but I believe that it is leading us to a brain drain in this country, and is bad for everyone all 'round.

I honestly appreciate dialogue on this, and if I'm in the wrong, I'd appreciate hearing back. I am by no means an opponent of globalization (or, indeed, of a more equalized global society), as this would allow me, the worker, an opportunity to choose where to work based on culture, dialect, language, and environment/scenery rather than only the knowledge that I can earn 10x to 20x more working and living in country X over country Y. Unfortunately, I do not see this happening in my lifetime, as it appears that businesses run the global show and we (the West) seem to desire this to continue. Oh well. I also do not see enough inertia left on the 'net to create the kind of critical mass to make a difference anymore. Unlike, say, 1994 and the Clipper chip, when the 'net seemed to be less dilute and be able to create a critical mass of outrage that eventually sank the roll-out effort.

Can you teach me to be happy?

[Anonymous Coward]

Can you teach my grandmother to suck eggs?
Happy happy, joy joy!

Re: blame not the CEO...

[mangu]

making decisions to obtain short-term savings and line my own pockets at the expense of long-term viability

You mean American farmers, right? Because the USA and Europe protect farmers in countries that aren't really adequate for farming. Why plant sugarcane in Louisiana, oranges in Florida, or coffe in Hawaii, when the best place for those is in the state of São Paulo in Brazil?

And it isnt'only farming, obsolete industries in the "rust belt" also get subsidies. Brazilian steel exports must face heavy tariffs and non-tariff barriers in exporting to the USA.

So, look at the long term consequences. The Brazilian real has a lower than normal exchange rate against the US dollar. This means that Brazilian agriculture and steel companies can compete in the USA.

OTOH, high technology companies in Brazil get an extra boost in their exports. With a favorable exchange rate and not having to face high barriers in exporting, the Brazilian aviation industry is able to compete very favorably against the American general aviation industry.

By protecting farmers and old steel mills you are keeping those low-paying jobs in the USA and exporting sophisticated technological jobs to the third world. Now, what exactly is sanity and what is greed?

4 words

[bozojoe]

dis en tear E

India Cheaper than Eastern Europe?

[obender]

From TFA:

The most sought after workers are those with Dutch, French, German, Italian, Spanish or Russian language skills and business or technical degrees.

I find it hard to belive that Indians are cheaper than programmers from Russia and Eastern Europe. Does anybody have more information about the actual price difference?

Re:India Cheaper than Eastern Europe?

[Niet3sche]

No, Indians are starting to become more expensive than Slovak programmers, at least. Eastern Europe, from my earlier comment, is starting to see an upswing in outsourced work from at least one huge, global (US) company.

You sir...

[MisanthropicProgram]

are correct. And I really want to thank you and my friend for enlighteningg me. I will relay this to the nurses that I know (my wife and her friends) so that they can really dispute those folks who really want to cheapen that profession!

What US is currently doing

[Anonymous Coward]

Its not like every worker in America is an American. Workers have come from outside to fill the skills shortage. I can't see why it would not happen in India. If things get better for Indian then may be all those Indians outside will return, and then there will be skills shortage in other countries. Good for those lazy jobless workers in the US. They can start demanding heigher pay.

Thank God my country is not English speaking!

[andersh]

At least I'm sure they won't be able to outsource many jobs from my country - due to the very small number of Norwegian speaking people around the world. What's more is that we have hundreds of dialects that are impossible for [non-native] people to understand. Even if they do learn a normalized version - they'll never understand what people are saying!

I'm in!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

At 12 cents an hour!

Re:English-speaking language skills in short suppl

[dodobh]

Oh, there are plenty of Indians who are really good at speaking English. They just don't work in your average call centre.

please do the needful

[poopie]

that there are plenty of phrases that are typically Indian (and are considered perfectly normal there), which may be hard to understand .. or just plain annoying like

"Please do the needful"

I can relate to that

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm leaving this job in a year, and I already have job offers for development (one for web development for a health related company, and one for a data warehousing place) and I haven't even started looking/written my resume or anything yet. I don't even want one, I was gonna take a couple years to go back to university... Add those new skills, I doubt it will be harder to find a job...

Making resumes to get a job isn't the same anymore either. It's only to get you to the first job interview. It has to be made to get you there, not the generic stuff as you'll just be overlooked. Then you HAVE to know how to sell yourself in the interviews. Without those skillsone would be looking for a job for a long time I guess...

Skills are still very important [not the 'A+/MCSE' kind], but that alone won't land you a job.

Outsourcing?

[Kagura]

In other news, rain was seen falling up in parts of the world today, and the sun now travels west to east.

Intriguing

[Anonymous Coward]

If I was still a young guy right out of college, worried about getting a career started, etc, I'd jump at the chance to work in India. Those of us with aging parents, mortgages, future commitments, etc. can't be as adventurous unless they want to impose upon a lot of people that are close to them. But if that doesn't include you, then drink plenty of tonic water, don't drink the tap water, make friends, and be a gentleman. Travel broadens the mind.

You make it sound even more romantic.

[itomato]

You're right.

It still sounds good to me, and I was looking into the possibilities a year or more ago. The lifestyle switch would be welcome to me, and I bet to the rest of a cross-section of adventure/traveller/techies. I don't think that netting that particular vein of IT pros will yield that many fish with more than 10 years of actual 'work' under their belts, especially ones that (a) have no family to uproot, (b) have any desire to take on the challenge of moving to a foreign country where your wage would be less than a third of what you made, in USD, nevermind the adjustment for cost of living. Including wrapping up financial burdens in the USA, which would never get paid up when your salary is so diminished.http://www.payscale.com/salary-survey/v id-3068/fid-11570

I am moving to a part of my city that has a significant Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi population *just for the escape* to a saner sort of life: groceries, attitudes, etc.

A "ghetto" like that is not an easy thing to find, from my experiece.

I'd jump at the chance to work in India - even if it meant being employed by a company in India, paying me the indiginous wage. It would be nice for some American companies to sponsor some of us adventure/traveller/nerds at reduced salaries. I, for one, am available.

Look at this stupid shit!

[Anonymous Coward]

Slow Down Cowboy!

Slashdot requires you to wait 2 minutes between each successful posting of a comment to allow everyone a fair chance at posting a comment.

It's been 21 minutes since you last successfully posted a comment

Chances are, you're behind a firewall or proxy, or clicked the Back button to accidentally reuse a form. Please try again. If the problem persists, and all other options have been tried, contact the site administrator.

Re:English-speaking language skills in short suppl

[edunbar93]

Heh. Of all the Indians I've met, most of them speak English in a very proper manner. They have a very odd accent of course, but hey, they're just from yet another corner of the commonwealth.

Outsourcing wages of Indian programmers high

[King Carl]

Our company (Germany location) wanted to outsource some SAP programming and the Indian programmers demanded an exaggerating 80,- ($ 98,-) per hour.

This rises my hope that the outsourcing hype is going to slow down fast.

Does this mean..

[EvilIdler]

..India is being outsourced?

Repatriation of jobs is already beginning

[EmagGeek]

My company has cancelled many of its offshoring initiatives due to several reasons:

1) The Indian offices constantly beg for more work, but they cannot deliver on the work they have already been given. This projects the notion that they are not able to estimate or honestly evaluate their own capabilities. Being eager to work does not make you a good worker, necessarily.

2) The work they do deliver is poor quality and almost 100% of it has had to be redone by domestic engineering departments. The initiatives started 4 years ago and there has yet to be a single customer-deliverable product returned from India.

3) Rising costs: it costs 3x as much today as it did 4 years ago to move work to India. Egoism runs rampant among Indians (there are enough of them in my office here in the States that I can say unequivocally that this is an accurate observation), they think the world of themselves and attempt to charge accordingly, even though #1 and #2 are contraindicative.

So, there are talks behind closed doors to start moving most of the 18000 jobs we have offshored in the last 4 years back to the states. Wage depression in the US (which I define as receiving annual raises that are less than the annual rate of REAL inflation, which has been on the order of 10% for the last 4 years or so when including EVERYTHING) has made US workers more affordable as well, so there is less incentive to go offshore...

I think the next 2 years will be very interesting. We may still win this battle for our jobs..

Re:Repatriation of jobs is already beginning

[Big_Al_B]

1) The Indian offices constantly beg for more work, but they cannot deliver on the work they have already been given. This projects the notion that they are not able to estimate or honestly evaluate their own capabilities. Being eager to work does not make you a good worker, necessarily.

Likewise, being "local" does not make you a good worker, necessarily.

Work ethics and competencies worldwide range from awful to awesome. If your company hired a crappy contract firm, then it's your own fault. Your company should have better contracting practices.

What makes you think painting Indian contractors with such a broad brush is not simply ignorant as hell?

2) The work they do deliver is poor quality and almost 100% of it has had to be redone by domestic engineering departments. The initiatives started 4 years ago and there has yet to be a single customer-deliverable product returned from India.

They haven't produced for four years, and you still send them work? That speaks to your competence more than theirs.

And again, why do you paint all workers from a country 3-4 times the population of our own, with a single brushstroke?

3) Rising costs: it costs 3x as much today as it did 4 years ago to move work to India. Egoism runs rampant among Indians (there are enough of them in my office here in the States that I can say unequivocally that this is an accurate observation), they think the world of themselves and attempt to charge accordingly, even though #1 and #2 are contraindicative.

It's "egotism". And, I'm sorry, but it's plainly racist to believe that: 1) Egotism is ubiquitous to a whole people, and 2) your narrow exposure to those people gives you "unequivocal" accuracy regarding, well, anything f**king thing at all.

So, there are talks behind closed doors to start moving most of the 18000 jobs we have offshored in the last 4 years back to the states.

Good. With any luck, they'll discover some redundancies and sh*tcan your redneck a** in the process. If karma exists, you'd likely be replaced by a recent immigrant.

Re:Repatriation of jobs is already beginning

[EmagGeek]

Actually, it *is* "egoism," because if you were capable of checking your information before posting your ignorant rant, you would see that egotism and egoism are synonyms, even though they have SLIGHTLY different CONTEXTUAL meanings. They are interchangeable and gather their figurative meaning from context. Go check definition #2 at dictionary.com if you like.

And it's not racist because Indians are caucasians, too. Also, you cannot refute observed data. They are incompetent. If they were competent, they would be finishing projects. That is the definition of competence in this case. You cannot say that the sky is not blue, because it is plainly obvious that the sky is blue. It is also plainly obvious that they are not finishing projects. The projects are not finished. Should I continue or is this point finally getting through your thick skull?

Also, I didn't say we were still sending them work. In fact, I said implicitly that we were NOT sending them more work because they could not do the work that they had already been given. What I said was that they were ASKING for more work...

Moving right along, we are not dealing with contract firms. They are employees of our Indian offices that are solely owned and operated by us.

Continuing further in handing your ass to you, I have no part in the decision making process in terms of where work is done. Those decisions are made by idiots like you, which, unfortunately, there are plenty of in the ranks of upper management at my company.

Just a suggestion, and I really am trying to be constructive here, but I think you would do well for yourself to go take some classes in reading comprehension and discourse. Then maybe you can understand the things that you read.

Re:Repatriation of jobs is already beginning

[Big_Al_B]

Actually, it *is* "egoism,"

Huh. I'm supposed to feel chastised that the depth, breadth, and flexibility of the English language just happened to save your ass when you used the "wrong" word for the context? I don't.

Egoism most commonly refers to a principle in ethics which states that each person should act to promote their own interest. Egotism most commonly refers to inflated sense of self-worth. Using a word uncommonly, in this sense, is just poor communication, and your technical correctness is, well, unimpressive.

And it's not racist because Indians are caucasians, too.

True. Racist was a poor word choice on my part. But it's a worthless semantic dodge on your part. You're still generalizing traits across 1.1 billion individuals. What would you call that? I mean, other than ignorant.

Also, you cannot refute observed data.

When your sample size (18,000) is a meaningless fraction (0.0016%) of your population size (1.1B), your observations are 100% purely worthless and any "unequivocal" conclusions drawn from them are completely asnine. And that's allowing for the wholy irrational assumption that all 18,000 workers are actually incompentent.

They are incompetent. If they were competent, they would be finishing projects.

Why would I ever take your word about anyone else's competency when you only provide worthless anecdotal evidence to support your claims? And it sounds like they completed at least one project; they attracted 18,000 jobs from your company to India, eh?

You cannot say that the sky is not blue, because it is plainly obvious that the sky is blue. It is also plainly obvious that they are not finishing projects. The projects are not finished. Should I continue or is this point finally getting through your thick skull?

Nice rant. Funny!

Also, I didn't say we were still sending them work. In fact, I said implicitly that we were NOT sending them more work because they could not do the work that they had already been given. What I said was that they were ASKING for more work...

So you have 18,000 employees doing either incompetent work, or no work, but you still employee them? Now I think I understand why *you* work there.

Moving right along, we are not dealing with contract firms. They are employees of our Indian offices that are solely owned and operated by us.

You're right. Clearly I made a mistake. I should have said, "If your company hired crappy employees, then it's your own fault. Your company should have better hiring practices." Totally makes you look better, eh?

Continuing further in handing your ass to you,

Really? Do you *really* think so? Really?

I have no part in the decision making process in terms of where work is done.

By "you", I was referring to you as the only representative of your company with whom I'm currently communicating. I would have thought that was obvious to someone who regards reading comprehension skills so highly.

Those decisions are made by idiots like you, which, unfortunately, there are plenty of in the ranks of upper management at my company.

Good, get it out. You'll feel better.

Just a suggestion, and I really am trying to be constructive here, but I think you would do well for yourself to go take some classes in reading comprehension and discourse. Then maybe you can understand the things that you read.

Sounds like fun. Hey, maybe I'll run into you coming out of Remedial Logic for Rednecks 101? We could get lunch!

Just FYI:

[GillBates0]

Continuing further in handing your ass to you, Just a suggestion, and I really am trying to be constructive here

Abusing an opponent in an argument does not construe as being "constructive" in my book. Neither does making strawman suggestions about the opponent's lack of "comprehension and discourse". Welcome to my foes list.